/lit/ - Literature

>>21362384
And yet these decisions never get any easier.

>>21362384
how are you meant to refute something which is true?

>>21362384
>>21362425
Were you determined to post this or did you have a choice? You know you don't have to shit up this board with nonsense if you wanted to, but hey, I guess its just part of your nature, like everyone else

>>21362438
I was determined to post this and you were as well the thoughts you are thinking are also determined as well

>>21362444
No, they were not. I'm sure your mother was predestined to drop you on your head as an infant too, right?

>>21362438
my choice was determined

>>21362453
you were determined to say that

>>21362455
You are not your mother
>>21362459
Nah

>>21362463
Keep denying it bro

>>21362384
Not from the point of view of my free will.

https://pswscience.org/meeting/the-doom-of-spacetime/

How can determinism be real if spacetime isn't even real?

>>21362384
Compatibalism is determined and you can't do anything about it

>>21362384
reminder that compatibilism is the most practically efficient as it grants the initiation point of all conception to the subject and it doesnt reject iteration.

>>21362518
>>21362546
I would like to check this out because I have only encountered this problem in the context of religion, where some go all the way with double predestination or on the other extreme complete free will.

>>21362384
>indeterminancy of quantum states
psst nottin personnel kid

>>21362384
Ah, an observation that some (insert broad worldview) is unfalsifiable, I wonder if /lit/ is sharp enough not to take the bait and create a shit-show of a thread full of back-and-forth unfalsifiable claims that go nowhere because none of them can be proven or disproven.

Last-Thursdayism thread when?

>>21362818
explain it

>>21362384
To prove or refute determinism, you would have to show that all possible inputs to an event across the entirety of the universe across all times will lead to the outcome. This is impossible because we can't enumerate all the possible inputs, we can't go to every location in the universe and we can't go to all points of time.
Another way to look at it is that we aren't Gods looking inward into the existing universe. Hence, we can't make any claims as to how everything truly is underneath it all because there is no way for us to test it.
Determinism cannot be proved or disproved, just like free-will cannot be proved or disproved. This entire debate is a waste of time.

>>21362384
It's unfalsifiable, and arguably refuted by manner of deterministic QM interpretations being stupid

>>21362818
just because it seems out of pattern to you, a quantum state doesn't refute determinism, rather it only shows your observational limitation and lack of understanding of what truly is the fabrics of the universe.
anything contained in the universe could not examine it's totality.

>>21362785
It has been the default assumption throughout the feild of historiography and practically by most people day to day.

Its obvious that people's decisions are influenced by their environment and interactions and nature (like everything else in the world), and often times you can very accurately determine what someone will do in a given situation given relivent factors. But its also apearent that we can only apreciate this seeming consistency through the lense of our selves as subjects in our own right who initiate this understanding. So there is a degree of fundemental subjectivity that must be granted given our metanalytical nature is the very starting point to appreciate determination in the first place.

all true

>>21362384
That's okay tho, Schopenhauer showed it didn't prevent freedom, free-will or moral action.

>>21362384
anyone who is a determinist should be beaten and burned until they admit that you have the power to stop the beating and burning

>>21362833
>>21362878
the claim that something is unfalsifiable is itself unfalsifiable, furthermore, many well accepted frameworks and theories such as the the theory of evolution are unfalsifiable

>>21362384
The determinist believes that absolutely everything is determined to exist in the way it exists by something else. But when we ask the question about being itself, and what determined being to exist in the way it exists, then we must be able to produce something else that determined it. But this can't be any being, since it is something other than being, which is a contradiction.

>>21363268
the monad determined it

>>21362384
As for the stricter position of "moment determinism" where every moment is determined to be as it is through laws taking previous moments as inputs, what exactly is a law? For it is not just an observable pattern, because coincidences can exist. So there must be something more than just what is observable to laws. Hence laws are metaphysical entities that don't merely reflect the world but are seen as generating the world. When said like that, the scientific veil is ripped off determinism. Most determinists haven't even thought about the meaning of this fundamental concept in their position.

>>21363273
If the monad isn't a being, then it isn't something, so it would be illegible as a determining agent.

>>21363295
the monad is a being

>>21363327
If the monad is a being, then it is not something else. Such a determination would not be a determination by another, but a self-determination. Either case was already demonstrated in my proof.

Sure it hasnt for you

it is if you say it is, and it is not if you do not.

>>21362384
Determinism is bound to be refuted it's inevitable.

>>21362455
Well put

>>21362384
yes it has . Its called bell's experiment

>>21362384
Honestly Catholic dogma on this is so beautiful I have to say it - God's will always wins but you also have free will with regards to providence.

>>21362384
>Reminder that determinism has never been refuted.
And yet these decisions never get any easier.

>>21362384
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse

>>21362384
>meaningless electo-chemical reactions are causing my thoughts
>I can distinguish truth value from my thoughts
Determinism is impossible to believe. It refutes itself kek

picrel
me just taking my predetermined course in life.

>>21362384
Real determinism has never been tried.

>>21364048
kek

>>21362438
If a rock hurtling through space were conscious it would think it were moving of its own volition. Spinoza said something like that.

>>21365213
Where is the feeling of volition located? It's not actually in the material rock, it's in the same "place" where the fate of the rock was decided, which is the process you're experiencing.

Determinism is on the same level as the simulation theory. Nothing changes in your life either way. You'll still wake up tomorrow and spend most of your day in front of a computer.

People who say they have free will are just egoist.

>>21365369
People deluded by the ego like excuses that absolve them of responsibility like determinism. Determinism is not a position you reach through sincere reason, it's not a coherent position. You just desperately want it to be true.

>>21362384
Or proven.

determinism doesn't matter. everything is essentially up to chance due to causation, regardless of whether it's determinate or indeterminate

>>21362384
Here, check out the fifth argument.
https://crossexamined.org/5-arguments-existence-free-will/

Your inability to understand it does not mean it's wrong, before you try to refute it keep that in mind.

>>21366984
Knowledge are just memories storied in your brain rationality is just your brain pattern recigtion I dont understand how does any of that have to do with free will