/lit/ - Literature

>>21348333
nice trips
3 3s

>>21348337
Thanks

>>21348340


MIKAEL IS NOT THE SON OF GOD; CEASE PROPAGATING HERESY.

>>21348337
>333
well isn't that fortiuitous

>>21348358
yes he is

>>21348333
>was A god
Why are you using a heretical translation?

>>21348387
See my drawing

>>21348389
>graphic arts is my passion :3

>>21348389
Look at that smirk. How high were they lmao.

>>21348389
Do yoi even know what the Council of Nicaea was? They didn't need a translation to hold it.

>>21348412
>Do yoi even know what the Council of Nicaea was?

Yes, a heresy

>>21348414
So almost every Christian before, besides possibly the ones from 30AD-80AD, and almost every single Christian after the Council of Nicaea was a heretic? All the Churches of the apostles fell to heresy only a hundred years (at best) after Jesus' crucifixion?
Your view is extremely bleak. We have no historical data on non-trinitarianism in the early Church but plenty of it before and after the Nicene Creed.

>>21348427
In his illustration of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus foretold a great rebellion (apostasy) against true Christianity. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43) For a long period of time, true Christians and false Christians would be indistinguishable. Just as Jesus foretold, the apostasy flourished after the apostles died. (Acts 20:29, 30)

Jesus also predicted that the distinction between true and false Christianity would eventually become clear. This has happened in our time, during the “conclusion of a system of things.”—Matthew 13:30, 39.

>>21348440
>>21348414
>>21348389
>>21348364
>>21348340
>>21348333
Your cult's doctrines is the most intelligence insulting hogwash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZe6BCuCa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shlvx9HBMgU&t=1045s

someone post her real schizo art

>>21348512
Your videos have been debunked

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/good-news-from-god/recognize-true-worshippers/

>>21348333
hitler's verse was better desu

>>21348364
you missed the part where he ministered in the Americas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VObqDKucH8Q

>>21348333
i blame the shitty translation

>>21348333
>a
opinion disregarded

>>21348616
>>21348630
the preceding clause and the following clause both clearly state that “the Word” was “with God.” Also, the Greek word the·osʹ occurs three times in verses 1 and 2. In the first and third occurrences, the·osʹ is preceded by the definite article in Greek; in the second occurrence, there is no article. Many scholars agree that the absence of the definite article before the second the·osʹ is significant. When the article is used in this context, the·osʹ refers to God Almighty. On the other hand, the absence of the article in this grammatical construction makes the·osʹ qualitative in meaning and describes a characteristic of “the Word.”

>>21348389
based arian

Jordan Peterson's first 2 hour biblical series video is on this btw
https://youtu.be/f-wWBGo6a2w

>>21348646
okay now explain why "hades" is translated as "grave" instead of "hell"

>>21348770
The Bible presents "hell", as translated from "Sheol" and "Hades", to be the symbolic common grave for both the good and the bad. It rejects the idea of a place of literal eternal pain or torment as being inconsistent with God's love and justice.

>>21348333
>Yet somehow the Logos made Flesh isnt
JW filtering themselves

>>21348860
Uh ? I do believe that Jesus is the logos made flesh

>>21348865
>"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
>Jesus is the Word
>Jeus isnt God
This is your brain on JW

>>21348874
inb4 "Its ACK-tually A GOD"
You niggas keep claimgint that the trinity is against "monotheism" yet you keep saying that there are multiple Gods ("a" God instead of just saying "The" or just "God")

>>21348874
actually the verses says "the Word was a god"

this phrase describes the divine or godlike nature that Jesus possessed before he came to earth.

>>21348883
angels are lesser gods

it's not polytheism because we believe in and worship only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, Jehovah

Meanwhile trinitarians declare that the Father has two other gods that are equal with him in power and eternity

>adding to the Word of God
Literally ngmi

>>21348333
>prots think it's literal "words"
hehehe

>>21348889
>angels are lesser gods
Lmaooooooooooooooooooo
>its not polytheism because we believe in one God
Thats called Kathenotheism, where you accept the existence of multiple gods but worship one of them. Like you offer sacrifices only to Zeus but still believe that Hades and Poseidon are real
You niggas are literally polytheistic pagans
Trinitarians dont believe in 3 Gods, they believe in one God that is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, thats why its called a trinity, its 3 in 1 and 1 is 3
Its not that hard to understand, I hope that you yourself are a father, a brother and a son, 3 in 1 and 1 is 3

Ill lead you on to something, since now its obvious that you niggas arent Arians, because Arians were too smart for you. Since you are here on /lit/ id recommend you to start with the Greeks, read some Plato, some Aristotle, than go read medieval philosophy, the early church fathers, pay attention to Saint Anselmo, Hugo and Richard, before you read some Thomas Aquinas. It will change you for the better, it will help you understand how the idea of Angels being gods is ridicilous and completely nonsensical (just like all paganism is, on a metaphysical and logical level not just on an ethical level)

>>21348892
I didn't add anything, it's Greek grammar

>>21348906
see pic

>>21348889
>Jesus is a God but we dont Worship him!
So the JW are heretical Messianic Jews and not Christians

>>21348907
>pic
So the Muslims were right and Christians are weeb obscurantists?

>>21348907
>see my trannycomic instead of literature
>fundamental misunderstanding of the trinit<
>fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Christ
>no arguments made because non can be made
Mods ban this nigga
Permaclap him

>>21348908
“My Father is greater than I [Jesus].”—John 14:28.

“I [Jesus] ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.”—John 20:17.

>are you a father, a son, and a brother?
>what do you mean? Im just one!
>yes but you are indeed a father, a son, and a brother all at the same time
>thats not true, thats not possible!? How can i be a father and a son! Catholics are cannibals and practice incest!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>21348893
I didn't learn it was "Logos" until I started reading Philip K. Dick. Thanks to DICK I took a step forwards in my biblical literacy. It's all "the LORD" btw.

>>21348928
https://philarchive.org/archive/SIJMTA
Please leave /lit/ since that shit you smap isnt about literature, and just continue spamming /his/ and posting softcore cartoon porn on funnyjunk

>>21348907
You're purposely misunderstanding.

>>21348938
When there are no possible arguments to be made the weakminded make strawmen

>>21348938
No I'm not

>>21348928
desu kudos for the cartoons but you need to drop with with the Jeovah® thing.

If you want to go with the original names it's not jesus but joshua/yashua and yahweh/yahwua

also the 1918 thing is cringe.

>>21348907
>he died but not really
>jesus is half human half divine
JW cant cope that their theology makes no sense so they just straight out tell lies. Both of these claims were seen as heresies

>>21348951
You are acting like a small child
Please neck yourself

>>21348955
>>21348953

JW theology is the only one that makes sense

>>21348953
Jehovah can understand any language

>>21348955
JW theology is the only one that makes sense

>>21348959
no I'm not

>>21348963>>21348977

>JW theology is the only one that makes sense
Why did God sacrifice Jesus, isnt that extremely cruel and unecessary. God did nothing, he did a completely selfish act
Also how come are Angels Gods? Did they exist before God? Were they eternal but separate from God?
From a logical perspective, the idea that Angels are Gods or that multiple Gods can exist is wrong. The Greeks figured this out a long time ago, thats why Plato talked about the One and Aristotle about the unmoved mover
https://home.csulb.edu/~cwallis/100/aquinas.html
Also, again, no arguments, because non can be made. Its just JW cope, telling lies, and childlike behaviour. Are you being paid to post your garbage here? Are you afraid that your community will excommunicate you if you dont behave like a literal retard? Or are you just french romanian

>>21348978
Glad you asked !

Jesus’ death proved that a human can remain loyal to God even when faced with the severest of tests.—Hebrews 4:15.

Jesus “became obedient to the point of death,” thus proving that a human could be faithful to God under any test or trial.—Philippians 2:8.

Despite having a perfect mind and body, Adam disobeyed God because he selfishly desired something that did not belong to him. (Genesis 2:16, 17; 3:6) Later, God’s chief enemy, Satan, suggested that no human would unselfishly obey God, especially if his life were on the line. (Job 2:4) Yet, the perfect man Jesus obeyed God and remained loyal to him, even undergoing a disgraceful and painful death. (Hebrews 7:26)

This completely settled the matter: A human CAN remain faithful to God under whatever test or trial may be brought upon him !!

>>21348333
JWs are a funny bunch

>>21348978
Also the way you use the word 'god' isn't the same in the Bible, the Bible can also use god to refer to humans (John 10:34,35), false deities (Exodus 12:12), angels (Psalms 8:5) and even Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4)

The Bible refers to Jesus as a god in John 1:1, but he is a god compared to humans, not because he is Almighty God himself.

Angels are also gods compared to humans for example, that is why they are called as such

However there is no one else like God and Jehovah God alone is the Almighty (Psalms 83:18) and no one can reach his divinity as he is far above anything in existence, only He is Divine in the Supreme sense !

>>21348963
the parts i mentionned don't and so does your service and organization

>>21348984
That's retarded and completely ignores the entire Epistle to the Romans. It also renders Jesus' death and resurrection totally ineffective, because you're saying it was just to make a stupid point that's never even made in the Bible instead of saving sinners.

>>21348978
Id recommend that you read Avicenna, since you like to shittalk Islam too, just so that you can see what a rational faith looks like. Look into necessarity and causality
>>21348984
Abraham and Isaac, the story already proves that, also a lot less cruel. Basically God made Jesus, and made him sacrifice himself, so that God wouldnt punish his other creations. It makes zero sense, God is evil by your theology.
On the other hand, if we accept that Jesus is God, and God sacrificed himself because he loves us that much, God came down from the heavens to wash our feet, because he loves us that much, than you can say that the death on the cross makes sense and thats the greatest thing God could have dont, to offer us himself instead of just another lamb

>>21348992
While Jehovah's Witnesses still adjust minor understandings of prophecy and periphery beliefs, major doctrines will NOT be changed because the doctrinal knowledge has increased so much that any recent changes have not been to doctrine but simple refinements in knowledge

٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21348991
These are direct misquotations and taken out of context
In John 10:34 he calls the jews hypocrites for wrongly using the word god
Just like how pagan gods arent actually gods, since they arent real

>>21348994
It's not the only reason Jesus died

Jesus died so that humans could have their sins forgiven and receive endless life. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 1:7)

>>21348995
Why do you guys keep saying God sacrificed Jesus ?

It's Satan who killed Jesus, using the Jews and Romans. Satan thought he won, but Jehovah had a plan !

He used Christ's death for the remission of sins

How ?

The first human, Adam, was created perfect, without sin. However, he chose to disobey God. Adam’s disobedience, or sin, profoundly affected all his descendants. “Through the disobedience of the one man,” the Bible explains, “many were made sinners.”—Romans 5:19.

Jesus was also perfect, but he never sinned. Therefore, he could be “an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” (1 John 2:2) Just as Adam’s disobedience contaminated the human family with sin, so Jesus’ death removed the stain of sin from all who exercise faith in him.

In a sense, Adam sold the human race into sin. Jesus, by willingly dying in our behalf, repurchased humankind as his own. As a result, “if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.”—1 John 2:1.

Now repeat after me. Jesus died for “the forgiveness of our sins.”—Colossians 1:14. Amen, amen !

٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21348996
>While Jehovah's Witnesses still adjust minor understandings of prophecy
Just by adding "a" to John 1:1, a "minor adjustment" you created a henotheistic doomsday cult
BRAVO, thats what you get for playing with the Word of God

>>21349002
>It's Satan who killed Jesus, using the Jews and Romans. Satan thought he won, but Jehovah had a plan
Nigger are you serious
Thats not something even my grandma that cant read would say
>He used Christ's death for the remission of sins
So God isnt all powerful and he needed a conduit to do that? Why couldnt he just remove all sin from the world if he wanted that? You believe in a pagan deity chap

Even the JW version of the Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus being Michael the archangel. What's the deal with that? Charles Taze Russell pulled it out of his ass.

>>21348999
John 10 actually proves my point !

beginning in verse 31, it says, "Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him," that is, Jesus. "Jesus replied to them: 'I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him: 'We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself,'" theos, which may be translated either "God or a god."

The New World translation and several other Bibles including the New English Bible translate it "a god," some god. Let's go with the translation God, capital G-o-d.

You, although being a man, make yourself God," capital G-o-d. "Jesus answered them: 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said: 'you are gods'"? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?"

Now think about this just for a moment. If the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be God, capital G-o-d, which most modern translations would have you believe, what's the point of him referring to Psalm 82 in reference to others as gods ?

How does that help his argument one bit ?

It doesn't at all !

If I were a religious leader in that day, I'd look back and I'd say, "Well, look, our claim is not that you're claiming to be one of these gods, these judges, angels, or even false gods. It doesn't matter what kind of gods those are in Psalm 82. We claim that you are calling yourself God, capital G-o-d."

So essentially Jesus would have just had no point at all !!

Now let's change it again and go back to a translation that says "you claim to be a god."

"We do not stone you for a fine work, but for blasphemy, because you, although being a man, make yourself a god." In answer Jesus said to them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? If he called 'gods,' if he called those against whom the word of God came 'gods,' and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God’s Son?"

Now that MAKES SENSE.

>>21349012
The JW are quick to make extrabiblical claims but will say stuff like "the trinity isnt in the Bible" even tho with a hermeneutic reading you will get to the understanding of the trinity, but never to the understanding that Michael is Jesus and that the Angels are Gods

>>21349016
Im not even going to read your spaced out retarded babble, just like you ignored everything above
Have fun in damnation your pagan worshipper, your faith openly mocks Jesus, I hope and pray to God that one day you will understand that

>>21349005
While many Bible translators render the verse to say that the word is God, others see the need to render it differently. In the original-language text, the two occurrences of “God” (Greek, the·osʹ) at John 1:1 are grammatically different.

In the first occurrence, the word “God” is preceded by the Greek definite article, while the article does not appear before the second occurrence. Many scholars note that the absence of the definite article before the second the·osʹ is significant.

For example, The Translator’s New Testament says regarding this absence of the article: “In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos (God) so that the phrase means ‘The Word was divine.’” (The Translator’s New Testament, page 451.)

Other scholars and Bible translations point to this same distinction.

Scholar Jason David BeDuhn states that the absence of the definite article makes the two occurrences of “God” “as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” He adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.”—Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament, pages 115, 122, and 123.

>>21349012
>>21349017

If Jesus isn't Michael then how do you explain this ?

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/archangel-michael/

>>21349021
You are blinded by the lies of your priests

>>21349010
>Why couldnt he just remove all sin from the world if he wanted that?

Well God's justice requires that sin be punished. Since all people have sinned, this punishment is necessary for God to maintain his justice. However, God's love for humanity also means that he does not want people to be punished for their sins.

As a result, God sent his son, Jesus, to earth to take on the punishment for humanity's sins. This allows God to forgive people for their sins without compromising his justice. In other words, Jesus' death on the stake is the means by which God can both maintain his justice and extend his forgiveness to humanity ! ٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

Do you understand ?

>>21349024
So John the apostle wrote revelation? I think there's some debate on this question..

>>21349091
Yes he did !

>>21348951
The "Islamic God" is "cruel" but not the biblical one? Have you read the Bible?

>>21348996
>the doctrinal knowledge has increased so much
yes maybe in another 2000 years Christianity will start to make sense

>>21349099
That's a very cute Joan, uh I mean John

>>21348364
jesus is god, blasphemer

>>21349153
Yes I did, Jehovah is nice and patient

>>21349169
Son of God*

>>21348907
See pic

>>21349180
god is the substance and the substance is god
your dogma blinds you to the truth
your spirit and flesh are equally weak heretic

>>21349206
God is a person, not a substance

>>21349211
when you shut your eyes does the world cease to exist?

>>21349218
no, why ?

>>21349220
whether or not something is foreign to your subjective experience has no bearing on its truthfulness
you miss the truth for the metaphor
you are the weakest of the flock
you seek to infect others with your weakness so as to no longer feel so weak

>>21349235
sounds like schizo babble to me

>>21349247
exactly
you lack the intellect to comprehend a point as simple as the one im making
yet assume to understand god
how can you fail to see the problem?

>>21349029
You have just explained Kapparot
For you Jesus is a chicken

>>21349024
>You are blinded by the lies of your priests
I read the Bible myself, while you retard have been brainwashed by a cult
Good day to you, please stop posting here

>>21349271
>I read the Bible myself

Great !

Then you must have read these verses

“My Father is greater than I [Jesus].”—John 14:28.

“I [Jesus] ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.”—John 20:17.

“To us there is but one God, the Father.”—1 Corinthians 8:6.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—1 Peter 1:3.

>>21349266
what

>>21349235
Utterly BTFO. The JW lives in constant fear of being disfellowshipped.

>>21349293
You get disfellowshipped for commiting a serious sin

Why would I want to commit a serious sin ?

>>21349310
What you fail to understand is that we are trying to help you, your friends at the governing body said you shouldnt enter into debate with bad people like us which is why we are trying to get you to gtfo.

>>21348333
Daily reminder that Jehovah's Witnesses are the niggers of Christianity.

>>21349275
>what
Thats what you believe Jesus is, a kapparot
A innocent being that humanity transfered their sins to so that they can sacrifice it
Jews have been transfering their sins to chickens and killing them for centuries

>>21349777
filtered

>>21349862
>demon makes covenant with ancient tribe to kill their enemies and give them land
>20th century amerisharts go "wow that's literally me"
>they do this AFTER the continent had been conquered from its inhabitants
retarded on so many levels

>>21348333
>>21348340
>>21348364
Lmao they are making an anime out of their religion

>>21348932
>Thanks to DICK I took a step forwards in my biblical literacy.
You mean Gnostic nonsense?

>>21349257
Notice that your logically sound point is ignored by the JW that lacks an understanding of logic, it's like arguing color with a blind person, not sure why y'all bother with these cultists. They'll die off like the other thousands of modern grifter Christian cults that came before them and no one will care and they'll have been happy to feel included in a club because that's how humans work.

I'd say I feel bad for JWs and how much time they waste but honestly I don't think about them much at all since my pity is worth giving to people who don't choose their own ignorance

Holy shit Barcelona was blessed by God himself?

Of all fucking things, how did we end up with a JWschizo on this site?

>>21349310
>The Lady getting railed by a bull and loving it
Kek. Canaan was very based.

>>21348532
all of these are arguments that can be used against your religion. Nothing in that article debunked the videos i posted. Start having an actual discussion and post something that is not Watchtower-sourced to prove your point. I dare you

>>21350454
This is hell. Of course there is a Jehovahs witness here.

>>21348364
Wtf is this Heresy?
The Angel of God is often linked to a pre-incarnation of Jesus. The Angel of God is not Michael or any other named angel.

>>21348333
Gotta be honest with you, the 3 in one divine thing is mostly autism.

>>21350909
They can't, it goes against their religion to use non Watchtower sources. Because all those other things are so evil that if they looked at them they might realize that they're in a cul-... Wait a minute

>>21348646
>muhammad did terrorism
>fought only on the battlefield

>moses unleashed plagues on an entire nation and assassinated all of their innocent firstborn sons
>not a terrorist

Funny how that works.

>>21348928
>toward heaven
Where is heaven physically located? And don't reply with heresy, dumbass.

>>21348951
>>21349180
So what has "the Islamic God" done that's crueler than the biblical God?

>>21348358
Honest question, why don't you write with scripta continua, Cum Genius?

>>21349099
I'd ruin John's boipussy if you catch my metaphor.

>>21352690
I'd also fuck God in his asshole if you know what I'm saying.

>>21349777
Holy Trips of Truth

>>21349099
>draws John with a more feminine face
based
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_of_Jesus#The_disciple_whom_Jesus_loved

>>21349890
The ancient Israelites were Jehovah's Witnesses

>>21350454
Jesus tood me to spread the Good News. Did he say to spread it everwhere exceot 4chan ?

No

>>21350909
all of these are arguments that can be used against your arguments. Nothing in that videos debunked the article i posted. Start having an actual discussion and post something that is not anti-JW-sourced to prove your point. I dare you

٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21350970
Yes he is

>>21351075
I agree !

>>21351283
Why are you making things up ?

>>21352630
He tortures people in hell

>>21348414
Why are all the characters in this comic female?

>>21352622
Heaven is outside our physical world

>>21352954
why not

>>21352622
Heaven is outside our physical world

>>21352954
why not

>>21352961
>>21352961
>Heaven is outside our physical world
luke 17:21
lara you will never be a christian. you will never understand incarnation. you're just another heretic scum. your arguments were refuted like 2000 years ago already

>>21349211
Wait you sure your a Jehovah's Witness? This comic is implying that support for Israel is bad but Jehovah's Witnesses are notoriously huge Israel shills IRL. Let me guess they are "fake" Jehovah's Witnesses? kek.

JW niggas be liek
>NOOOOOOOON THIS LE BLOOD IS TOO SPIÇY JESUIS HELP ME AAAAAHHHHHH

>>21352975
To understand this verse correctly, we must consider the context.

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, a group of religious leaders who opposed him and shared in arranging for his execution. (Matthew 12:14; Luke 17:20) Does it make sense to think that the Kingdom was a condition in their obstinate hearts ? Jesus told them: “Inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”—Matthew 23:27, 28.

The Kingdom of heaven was “with” or “among” the Pharisees, in that Jesus, the one designated by God to rule as King, was standing before them.—Luke 1:32, 33.

>>21352977
This is completely untrue.

JWs do not advocate for any political arrangement, which would include Zionism.

The political neutrality of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been well documented, and in some lands the Witnesses have suffered severe persecution rather than compromise that neutrality.

We are convinced that only God’s heavenly Kingdom will bring lasting peace to this earth; NO human government or movement can accomplish this !

A core tenet of the religious beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, regardless of where they live, is obedience to the laws of secular governments. They do not rebel against governmental authorities or participate in armed conflict.

>>21352925
No he isn't, John 8:58, Jesus pre-existed Abraham. The Angel of the Lord is referred to as the Second Person of the Godhead.
The Angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and tells reveals he will greatly multiply their numbers. An ordinary angel, even Michael, cannot do that, as only God is the source of life.
He also predicted what Hagar's son would be like, which again, an angel couldn't do.
To Abraham the Angel of the Lord refers to Himself as God.
Paul explains in Colossians that Jesus is the second Being, the "image of the invisible God". This is also why the Angel of the Lord does not appear in the New Testament. He is already there.

>>21350017
No. I had just never heard of the concept of the Logos before. I'm a Protestant. This was like 7 years ago.

>>21348333
Refuted by Faust. In the beginning there was the Deed.

>>21353011
>John 8:58, Jesus pre-existed Abraham

I agree

>The Angel of the Lord is referred to as the Second Person of the Godhead.

not in the bible

>The Angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and tells reveals he will greatly multiply their numbers. An ordinary angel, even Michael, cannot do that, as only God is the source of life.

it is important to address a large problem that exists where many do not have the proper understanding of what the literal definition of "angel" in the Bible is.

Both the Hebrew mal·´akh´ and the Greek ag´ge·los literally mean “messenger.” When spirit messengers are indicated, the words are translated “angels,” but if the reference definitely is to humans, the rendering is “messengers.” (Gen. 16:7; 32:3; Jas. 2:25; Rev. 22:8) Whether human or angelic messengers are meant can be determined by the context.

When Jesus was on earth, he was God's foremost messenger. He was called the "Word" because he was God's Spokesman. (John 12:49, 50; 14:10; 7:16, 17)

>He also predicted what Hagar's son would be like, which again, an angel couldn't do.

Jehovah told him to say this

>To Abraham the Angel of the Lord refers to Himself as God.

Because he is God's spokesman. It's like Abraham was talking in a telephone.

>Paul explains in Colossians that Jesus is the second Being, the "image of the invisible God". This is also why the Angel of the Lord does not appear in the New Testament. He is already there.

Yes, Paul says that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God,” not God himself !

>>21348333
>and the word was a god
So JWs are polytheists... That explains the pyramidology.

>>21352925
>Why are you making things up ?
Ask The Watchtower the same question. They made up most of their doctrine because they wanted to scam people out of their money in the 1910s. Jesus will punish them in the afterlife because of their greed, lying and treacherousness

>>21353309
Biblical monotheism is monolatry: The worship of the Most High God Jehovah who is in his Divine Council. This is important and something that you fail to account for, for you state that “
Jesus is either the one true God or He is a false “god.””

No, Jesus is the most powerful and senior member of the Divine Council subordinate to God. But by advocating worshipping Jesus in the same way as we should worship the Father, you advocate turning Jesus into a false god and an idol !

>>21353330
>black Martin Luther
This is my favorite shitpost drawing of yours

>>21353329
>Stil making things up

You know Jesus can see your actions ?

>>21353334
I forgot to add "King"

>>21353339
>I forgot to add "King"
Right, my bad. You forgot.

>>21348333
>>21348340
>>21348364
You must seriously be on some seriously heretical crusade to keep on posting these retarded cartoon caricatures of biblical figures everyday. It’s time to take the meds or GTFO

>>21353345
ad hominem

JW are literally the WE WUZ of Christianity

>>21353351
>The Lamb: Jesus Christ
Question: if the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and Jehovah aren't the same being, why does Revelation 22 speak of only one throne that is of God and of the Lamb? Also, how do you explain both Jesus and Jehovah referring to themselves as "the Alpha and the Omega"?

>>21353418
> why does Revelation 22 speak of only one throne that is of God and of the Lamb?

Simple, “I myself have installed my king . . . I will give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession.”—Psalm 2:6, 8.

Jehovah chose his son Jesus to rule mankind and heaven as King of God’s Kingdom !

Jehovah will rule through Jesus just like he ruled Israel through the many kings like David or Solomon.

>Also, how do you explain both Jesus and Jehovah referring to themselves as "the Alpha and the Omega"?

Actually, “The Alpha and the Omega” refers to Jehovah God, the Almighty all three times it appears in the Bible !
—Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13

>>21353430
>Actually, “The Alpha and the Omega” refers to Jehovah God, the Almighty all three times it appears in the Bible !
>Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13
Revelation 22:13 is part of the message that the angel is giving to John from Jesus. It is Jesus who's saying these things not John. This is made even clearer in Revelation 22:20 which says:
>He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The "I am coming quickly" (ἔρχομαι ταχύ) refers back to, among other passages, Revelation 22:12-13
>“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

>>21353493
>It is Jesus who's saying these things not John.
*Not Jehovah although Jesus is Jehovah

>>21353493
Actually, the speaker at Revelation 22:13 is not specifically identified, and there are various speakers in this chapter.

Commenting on this section of Revelation, Professor William Barclay wrote:
“Things are set down without any apparent order; . . . and it is often very difficult to be sure who is the actual speaker.” (The Revelation of John, Volume 2, Revised Edition, page 223)

Thus, “the Alpha and the Omega” at Revelation 22:13 can be identified as the same Person given this title elsewhere in Revelation—JEHOVAH GOD ٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21353502
>Actually, the speaker at Revelation 22:13 is not specifically identified
Revelation 22:16:
>“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

>>21353533
As you probably know, the original Bible writers didn't use any punctuation or capitalization and frequently ran the words of one speaker right into those of another speaker without any warning or indication. Eerdmans 1978 edition of Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, for example, warns Bible readers:

>"The language of the MESSENGER frequently glides into that of the SENDER ..." and, "what a SERVANT says or does is ascribed to the MASTER." - "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation" - Preface.

There is another thing that helps show the originally-intended meaning here. Although it is very common that the words of one speaker slide right into those of another speaker (e.g., Is. 10:4, 7), it also happens that sometimes the writer identifies the new speaker. As we see in Daniel, for example, Daniel nearly always identifies himself as the new speaker when he uses the words "I, Daniel" whenever it might be confusing to the reader (especially after a different person has been speaking) - Dan. 7:15, 28; 8:15, 27; 12:5.

If we then examine Revelation (which is recognized as being similar to, patterned after, and frequently referring to, the Book of Daniel), we find that John also uses this technique. "I, John" identifies a new speaker in every instance John uses it: Rev. 1:9; 22:8. So Rev. 1:9 is merely the statement of a new speaker.

>>21353502
>William Barclay
>self described "liberal evangelical"
>"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God."
>critical of the scriptures being divinely inspired, as well as substitutionary atonement, and the virgin birth
Of course he would have trouble interpreting the scriptures. All heretics do.

>>21348951
>Hindu gods are weird
What's wrong with that?

>>21353555
Revelation 22:12-13 is clearly the voice of the sender speaking. We go on to learn in Revelation 22:16 that the sender is in fact Jesus, meaning it was Jesus who said
>I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
And again, this is made all the more clear in 22:20 which refers back to 22:12-13.

>>21353634
look again at Rev. 22:8-16.

John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in (:9). The angel apparently continues speaking in (:10). The angel may be still speaking in (:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in (:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John ?

There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It's entirely a matter of translator's choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly.

So the NASB, JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the NKJV, NEB, REB, RSV, and NRSV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12.

Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 ("I am Alpha and Omega").

So the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak ?

Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not !!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, and NAB (1991 ed.) show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John's words. (The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.)

Then they all show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian NEB, RSV, NKJV, and NASB Bibles, you are saying John is Jesus! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus !)

The holy spirit is a human invention. Trinitarianism was a mistake.

>>21353645
The holy spirit is God’s power in action, his active force. (Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35)

>>21353650
Why not Brahma? In the context of the hindu trinity.

>>21353639
You're relying too heavily on translations. As you said in >>21353555 we need to look for ways to the distinguish the voice of the messenger and the voice of the sender. In Revelation 22:9, John uses "καὶ λέγει μοι" to indicate that the angel is speaking. Then in 22:10 John re-uses "καὶ λέγει μοι", to indicate that now the sender is speaking, not the messenger, and in 22:16 we're told that it's Jesus who was the sender, meaning it was Jesus who was the speaker in 22:10-15.

>>21353430
>Jehovah will rule through Jesus just like he ruled Israel through the many kings like David or Solomon.
Nobody worshipped David or Solomon though, or if they did they were idolaters. How do you account for God Almighty AND the Lamb being the one temple (ναὸς) in Revelation 21:22?

inb4 this nutjob is the french JW spammer that does this on across several boards

>>21353768
Remember, "I, John" indicated a new speaker in Revelation.

So Rev. 22:16 - "I, Jesus" also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement ("I am the Alpha and Omega") was made by someone else!

Even the KJV (and NKJV) translators have shown by their use of the word 'his' ('His' in the NKJV) in verse 14 that they didn't mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing "His Commandments" (not "My Commandments")!

Therefore, the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young's Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible.

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title "Alpha and Omega" confirms this understanding.

"And He who sits on the throne said, `Behold, I am making all things new.' .... And He said to me, `It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.'" - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

"Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be `sons' of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his `brothers.' (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those `brothers' of Jesus are referred to as `sons of God [the Father].' (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)." - pp. 412-413, Reasoning from the Scriptures, WBTS, 1985.

So Rev. 21:6, 7 confirms the understanding that the Alpha and Omega is the Father, not Jesus.

>>21353837
any obeisance (proskuneo) given to Jesus is to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11) For example, Joseph’s brothers also bowed to him in Genesis 43:28 (proskuneo LXX), but he was not a false god, because his brothers knew that full worshipful devotion belonged to the Almighty God Jehovah.

>>21353859
>So Rev. 22:16 - "I, Jesus" also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement ("I am the Alpha and Omega") was made by someone else!
It's clearly not introducing a new speaker, but concluding the message sent by Jesus to John told through the angel (Revelation 22:10-16). You're ignoring the rest of the passage following the "I, Jesus"
>I Jesus
>have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Who else could the angel be if not the one in Revelation 22:8-9?
>any obeisance (proskuneo) given to Jesus is to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11) For example, Joseph’s brothers also bowed to him in Genesis 43:28 (proskuneo LXX), but he was not a false god, because his brothers knew that full worshipful devotion belonged to the Almighty God Jehovah.
Revelation 21:22 said nothing about obeisance, or that God Almighty is worshipped through the Lamb. It says that God Almighty AND the Lamb are the one and only temple, meaning they're the center of worship. I don't know how much clearer the scriptures can be that the Almighty and the Lamb are one.

>>21353940
The only one "seated on the throne" in Rev. is the Father, Jehovah alone. (See, for example, Rev. 4 & 5 where the "Lion that is of the tribe of Judah," the lamb [the Son] approaches the one seated on the throne !)

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.

>I and my Father are one.
(John 10:30)
JWfags BTFO
inb4 muh one in will
>implying

>>21348337
Blessed by the Holy Trinity, jwanon must turn from wickedness

>>21348364
Will he wield the cursed blade Frostmourne?

I smell a rat

This thread is just proof it's impossible to convince someone their dearly-held religious beliefs are erroneous and wrong...this is coming from a Prot btw

Man, you religious people are insane. Come back to reality

>>21348333
>In the beginning
>was the word
>and the bird
>was the word

>>21355024
sure you can !

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44

>>21348333
Post the one with Ankha

>>21355045
Religion was amazing because it was the best attempt in history to keep everyone in check without actively policing his behavior in real time. You had the rules, you could break them, you could obey, generally speaking you had good standing if you obeyed the rules and people thought you were good. After religion died we actually started worshiping debauchery and all the things that make shitty people shitty. That's the only thing religion was good at.
>>21355024
JW spammer is absolutely and completely fucking insane and JWs are a literal cult.

>>21353650
so what youre saying is that the holy spirit is an aspect of god?

>>21355315
>They're insane because...they follow Jesus !!!

I wish you peace despite your hatred

>>21355334
It's the force that God uses to carry out his will, the means by which God communicates with his people and helps them to understand the Bible.

It is the most powerful energy in existence

>>21355355
why does god require something intermediary in order to reach people, is he not omnipotent?

>>21355409
What do you mean ? The holy spirit is how he uses his omnipotence

>>21355422
the question is very simple, what don't you understand?

>>21355434
How would God reach people without his holy spirit ?

>>21355131
So much of what you say is biblical at face value. You're really quite dangerous.

>>21355443
directly

>>21355456
How do you speak to someone directly ?

>>21355447
Consider the following: Jesus prophesied that many would claim to be Christian yet fail to obey his commands and that he would reject such ones. (Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 6:46)

Some people would be misled by religious leaders who corrupt true worship to further their own interests. (Matthew 7:15)

However, other people would actually prefer imitation Christianity because it would tell them what they want to hear rather than the truth from the Bible.—2 Timothy 4:3, 4.

>>21355464
Ditto ditto ditto

>>21355464
>How do you speak to someone directly ?
through limitless divine power
the introduction of a 'force' doesn't make this simpler but is a pointless intermediary step
its like using a ladder to reach something on the floor

>it's time for kike fanfic
>again
Yikes

>>21355477
>through limitless divine power

Right, and that limitless divine power is called...?

>>21355484
god

>>21355487
God is a person, not a power

God is powerful, and this is because he posesses and controls....?

>>21355497
god is a power, the holy spirit is a person
you've got it the wrong way around

>>21355508
Other way around my friend

But now you got the idea

>>21355516
what are you basing this on?

God is a spirit:
>The Father
is a spirit
>The Logos
is a spirit
>The Holy Spirit
is a spirit
These are all the same being, with different characteristics Who all interact with humanity in unique ways. The Father is the Lord Who made the world through the second Person in the Trinity, Whom redeemed the world, and Who ministers to the world via the Holy Spirit. It's complicated I know. JWs like to imagine they can understand the Trinity through dumbing it down and rationalizing it.

>>21355524
God is much more than a powerful force !

The Bible says that he has feelings, such as love and hate. (Psalm 11:5; John 3:16) It also reveals that the way humans act can affect God’s emotions.—Psalm 78:40, 41.

>>21355537
God (the Father):
God is a single being whose personal name is Jehovah.
they also accept the name Yahweh and other transliterations.
Jehovah is alone, and above all other beings
Jehovah created everything that exists.
Jehovah has a son called Jesus Christ.
Jesus is not God.
Jesus is not equal to God.
Jesus was God's first creation.
Jehovah then created everything else through Jesus Christ.
Jehovah's outstanding qualities are love, justice, wisdom, and power.

Jesus Christ:
Jesus Christ is a mighty being, but he is not God
Jesus Christ is a lesser and separate spirit being.
Jesus Christ is not equal to God in power or eternity (i.e. age).
Jesus Christ never thought of himself as God or equal to God.
Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Jesus Christ was created by Jehovah as his first creation.
So Jesus had a beginning and thus cannot not be eternal.
Jesus Christ is inferior to Jehovah, but superior to the angels.
Jesus Christ rules as part of God's heavenly kingdom.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah predicted in the Old Testament.
Jesus Christ came to earth from heaven.
When Jesus was on earth he was a perfect human being, but he was not divine in any way
Jesus Christ gave his human life as a sacrifice to make human salvation possible
Jesus Christ has been appointed by God to judge each human being and decide on their fate.
Jesus Christ will be used by God to resurrect the dead.

The Holy Spirit:

The holy spirit is Jehovah's active force that he uses to accomplish his will.
The holy spirit is not a person.
The holy spirit is not part of a Trinity.

The Trinity:

The traditional Christian idea that God is a 'Trinity' of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is false and based on pagan ideas.
The doctrine of the Trinity is inconsistent with the Bible.
The doctrine of the Trinity contradicts what the prophets, Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christians believed and taught.

>>21355551
See, the only "evidence" you have that Jesus isn't God is an erroneous mistranslation of John 1:1, and it's obvious you have nothing else. Charles Taze Russell couldn't even read Greek, so what makes you think he found something in the original Greek which no other scholar before or since has found? It's a total non sequitur.

>>21355566
*hasn't found

>>21355566
Jesus said that “the true worshipers will worship the Father with truth.” (John 4:23)

That truth has been recorded in the Bible. (John 17:17)

Does the Bible teach that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are three persons in one God ?

No !

For one thing, the Bible does NOT mention the word “Trinity.” For another, Jesus NEVER claimed to be equal to God. Instead, Jesus worshipped God. (Luke 22:41-44)

A third line of evidence concerns Jesus’ relationship with his followers. Even after he was raised from the dead to the spirit realm, Jesus called his followers “my brothers.” (Matthew 28:10)

Were they brothers of Almighty God ?

Of course not !

But through their faith in Christ—God’s preeminent Son—they too became sons of the one Father. (Galatians 3:26)

>>21352630
He posted cringe

>>21355551
>God is much more than a powerful force
correct, he is also 3 persons
that is where the ability to experience emotions comes from

>Jehovah is alone
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
>Jesus was God's first creation
He was with God in the beginning.
>Jehovah created everything that exists.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

>>21355593
>correct, he is also 3 persons

Not in the Bible

>that is where the ability to experience emotions comes from

He has emotions because he is a person

>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Consider the following, more accurate translations:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”—The Bible—An American Translation, 1935, by J.M.P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

“The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”—The Bible—Containing the Old and New Testaments, 1950, by James Moffatt.

“The Word was in the beginning, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version, 1808, edited by Thomas Belsham, based on a New Testament translation by William Newcome.

“In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”—The Authentic New Testament, 1958, by Hugh J. Schonfield.

>He was with God in the beginning.

The “beginning” referred to in this verse cannot mean “the beginning” of God, because God had no beginning.

Jehovah God is “from everlasting to everlasting.” (Psalm 90:1, 2) However, the Word, Jesus Christ, DID have a beginning !!

He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.

>Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

Jesus was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things. He is the only one created directly by Jehovah and is therefore appropriately called God’s “only-begotten” Son. (John 1:14)

>Jesus dies on the cross
>1900 years later a bunch of laypeople start a for profit Bible study organization in Pittsburg
>they end up recruiting an atheist lawyer
>he starts writing a bunch of books, and believed that Jesus died on a tree, not the cross, contrary to scripture
>said atheist lawyer becomes president of the organization and transforms it into a hierarchical, autocratic religious group, basically a cult
>this is supposedly the final fulfillment before Armageddon
>the atheist lawyer and his buddies are supposedly alluded to in Revelation
>this is the one true faith

The amount of cope one would have to ingest to wake up everyday and believe this on a daily basis is staggering. For that, I can empathize with you.

>>21355612
those translations are less accurate
what they translate as 'divine' is 'theos', the nominative form of 'theon' which occurs in the previous phrase

>>21355736
There literally is nothing wrong with any of these ٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21355762
There's a rule that exerts some influence on the uses of "God/god" and other anarthrous nouns in the accusative case (theon or θεόν) in the writings of John.

The nominative case is the form used for NT Greek nouns which are subjects (and, of course, predicate nouns). When these nouns are not accompanied by modifiers (including "the"), they should not be considered definite, and the definite article should not be added by the translator.

However, when such anarthrous nouns are accompanied by modifiers (notably numerals and prepositional phrases), the definite article should sometimes be understood to accompany them. The need for translators to add an understood "the" is much more frequent if a prepositional predicate noun comes before its verb (e.g. Jn 8:54) in the original Greek .

Nouns in the accusative case, however, are used as objects and are usually translated into English as direct objects, indirect objects, or objects of certain prepositions such as "toward," "with," etc. - (e.g., Jn 1:1, 2; 20:17; 1:18; 7:13)

>>21355736
There literally is nothing wrong with any of these ٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

>>21355762
The point John is making is that the Word is a divine being

But you are right that 'divine' may be too weak. 'A god' translates better the original text

1808: “and the word was a god.” - The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: “and a god was the word.” - The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1958: “and the Word was a God.” - The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Even Origen, the most knowledgeable of the early Christian Greek-speaking scholars, tells us that John 1:1c actually means "the Word [logos] was a god". - "Origen's Commentary on John," Book I, ch. 42 - Bk II, ch.3.

Jehovah's Witnesses have been criticized for allowing the indefinite article (a) at John 1:1c. However, the true fault lies with their critics !

It is the other way around...the absence of the indefinite article at John 1:1c has been purposely mistranslated in most Trinitarian-produced Bibles to fit their doctrine that Jesus is God !!!

>>21355838
>There literally is nothing wrong with any of these
Got it. So for you people, preaching contrary to scripture isn’t wrong.

LOGOS

I used to be a JW. To OP, I would suggest you honestly research john 1:1 from non watchtower sources. The New World Translation has mistranslated that verse on purpose, as the original makes much more sense. In fact I would suggest you do extensive research on all of the mistranslations the NWT has done in order to fit the JW doctrine. Save yourself from this evil cult, spare your family this religion of hatred and manipulation.

>>21356217
>>21356217
And besides OP, if the trinity exists or not is a small matter in the end. To defeat or reaffirm your faith, I would start with the fundamental question; prove to yourself without a doubt that God exists. If you cannot, decide if you are willing to give Gods existence your faith and if yes, for what reason.

>>21348333
Witnessed, Jesus is lord

>>21352961
>Heaven is not of our physical world
ftfy