/lit/ - Literature

Very few people even finish the Bible, including those are its greatest fans, whereas Muslims often memorize the entire Quran, every large mosque with have several Muslims who have which is almost required to lead the tarawih prayers. Whether or not the Quran is better than the Bible is an unqualified question, but certainly the Quran is more relevant than the Bible, which no longer presents any serious moral, social or political significance. The Quran is taken more *seriously* both by its adherents and its adversaries.

>>21327578
yeah but those who memorize the quran have no idea what it's about, they just read it in arabic

>>21327592
They read in Arabic but even if they can’t speak Arabic they know the hundred or so most common words and basic grammar since they read translations as well and you naturally pick on it doing so.

>>21327578
Memory is a false subtle faculty, the repetiveness and roteness of such a task, and that it constitutes a life-effort aswell as goal for muslims, who are so invested in this action, only implies something negative as there is nothing permanent which can result from such activity, that a scripture is even relied upon and idolized only exaggerates the inferiority of the people so dependent upon it, that you are innately lost morally, socially and politically, that you need a set of commands dictated to you only speaks to the inner inferiority and sickness of a people, there is nothing relevant or significant about paper beyond slavish memorization and intellectual masturbation if you do not either discard it completely and are resultingly mentaly attatched to it for the duration of your life. Neither the quran nor bible, has any significance and they should both be burnt together for the trash that they are.

>>21327646
lmao

>>21327565
>is the quran a better book than the holy bible
Obviously. Do some claim otherwise?

It's a pile of garbage. Read this.

>>21328583

>>21328583
Cringe

>>21327565
Islam claims to be the final religion of God until the end of the world, acknowledging the validity of the older religions - Christianity, Judaism and others - but claiming them to be obsolete. The proof of this would be obvious if you take into account that Muslims are the only religious demographic who by and large take their religion seriously and oppose the modern inventions such as liberalism, secularism, feminism and so on.

>>21327578
fpbp

>>21328872
>

>>21328929
I said 'by and large', and of course there are exceptions. However, if you were to compare the situation of the Muslims with the other religious demographics, you would realize that there isn't even any comparison.

>>21328929
Events intended by the king to virtue signal westerners and to be attended by western workers and Arabs educated abroad definitely don’t represent most of the country

I was pretty sure we were a Jainist conspiracy to troll the other boards into rejecting the evils of fly killing. Isn't that why we're wearing the mask?

>>21329352
>>21329367
>and t-to be attended by w-western workers and A-arabs educated a-abroad

>>21327578
Bro the Quran is like 10% the size of the bible and is designed to be rhythmic and easily memorizable

>>21329401
Yes. Obviously you don’t know how most people in the Arabian peninsula are

>>21329394
That was last year. We're now a Hindu based conspiracy against dwarves disguised in dual pronged attack as both Aryan nationalism and Maoist revivalism. That's why we all had to learn Urdu and I think that's why OP is confused about the Muslim and Jews bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY1pWTek2sY

>>21329401
honestly I would fuck the semite broad on the left

Can anyone recommend any Ibadi reads in English?

The quran legitimately sucks. Even muslims agree with this although they can't admit it. It's extremely repetitive around the few biblical stories Mohammed remembered, it confuses multiple characters and claims, and requires a whole library of hadith to clarify.
The early stuff is almost exclusively remember the last day stuff and the late stuff is really just Mohammed giving himself a free pass or justifying his latest actions.
As far as actual insight goes Muslims always have to refer to the hadith because there is really nothing there.
Funniest thing is when muslimas try to imitate christian inspirational quotes but the best the prose offers is:
>And be good, because Allah doesn't like evil

>>21329773
It is objectively the most compelling text in the world.

>>21329773
>Funniest thing is when muslimas try to imitate christian inspirational quotes but the best the prose offers is:
>And be good, because Allah doesn't like evil

Kek this, Facebook Quran quotes are always so tacky and pointless, it sounds like schizopost.

>>21329781
It's not and you don't believe that.

>>21329781
It's an incoherent rambling boring collage, uniteresting. Muslims say it's compelling because they have to.

>>21328583
I don't trust that inbreeding map even though I despise Islam more than anyone else here.

>>21327565
Living in an Islamic country for a few years cured me of the notion that Islam could have much to offer.

Are we repeating the cycle now? I thought we’d already had Islam as the new meme religion a few years back, but I guess Guenon, Tate, and Qatar revived it. Since the converts this time will be far more retarded than the /lit/ scholars of the past who became Sufi/wahhabi, I’m curious to see where this will go

>>21327565
>is the quran a better book than the holy bible?
I've read the Qur'an and I'm about 1000 pages into the Bible. Bible is a much better read. Both are absolute crap though.

>>21327592
>People who memorize a book in their own language don't understand words.

You what m8?

>>21329868
>Bible is absolute crap
I can admit the cataloguing sucks but the wisdom books are kino AF

>>21329878
It's not their language, Pakistani, etc memorize it in arabic even though they don't understand arabic. Even Arabs speak arabic dialects that differs widely from quranic arab and don't necessarily understand what they're learning.
Learning the Quran for them is just learning a string of magical syllable. Yes it's that dumb.

>>21329791
It is and I do. No other book has the power to inspire people to die for its message, not anymore

>>21329878
Most Muslims aren’t Arabs

>>21329878
Most muslims are not arabs and neither understand nor speak Arabic

>>21329890
People killed himself of Werther you dumb idiot. I'd be more impressed by a book that has the power to make people not kill themselves. But you're just a larper so anything that makes you feel like you win an internet argument goes.

>>21329887
Books of Kings are kino too, a movie about Samuel, Saul and David would be great.

>>21329889
The Quran is in fusha which all Arabic speakers understand they just don’t use necessarily. Much of the vocabulary of the Quran is understandable to anyone who memorizes and most reciters who don’t speak Arabic at least recognize verses and can say what they mean despite not being fluent in the grammar or vocabulary

>>21329898
You missed my last clause apparently

>>21329908
You really suck at this.

>>21329902
Modern Standard Arabic is not quranic arabic. Arabic speakers who want to read the Quran in the original have to learn quranic arabic because it's too far from either MSA or their dialect.

>>21329922
You are ignorant, fusha of today and fusha of the Quran is identical in pronunciation, grammar and 99% of usage

>>21329773
>>21329791
>>21327565
It is the greatest book ever written. And I mean this literally. The greatest and most beautiful form of literature, arabic poetry, has literally been ruined because none of it can reach the greatness of the Quran. All great works become divided into either before the Quran or after it. Reading it in arabic unironically ruined literature for months for me because nothing comes close.

>>21329787
I assume you do not understand arabic which is why you think it sounds tacky. Unlike The Bible whoch is almost exclusively read in translations, a translation of The Quran is not considered the Quran itself nor is it holy, it is simply a translation of it.

>>21329868
>both are absolute crap
Again, I assume you do not understand arabic and are reading a translation of a work which literally says that a translation of it is merely helpful, but cannot be the Quran unless read in the same language it came in. Besides, the Bible is a great book as well. I do not understand why western atheists somehow always try to claim the bible is not a great work of literature.
You people are literally the edgelord version of YA readers who say Moby-Dick sucks just because they are not interested in it or do not have the ability to read it.

>>21329889
Every single arab reading the Quran understands much of it because most of the arabic language has been shaped by this great work. Muslims who are not arab literally must understand part of the Quran even if they do not speak arabic since parts of it are applicable and necessary to their daily lives.

>>21329898
>I'd be more impressed by a book that has the power to make people not kill themselves
And yet countries which have Islam as part of their governance (the gulf countries) have: some of the lowest suicide rates, some of the highest happiness rates, while also having some of the lowest ssri rates in the world

>>21329922
Like most other posters in the thread. You either do not understand arabic or are purposfully ignorant. Much of the language has been shaped by the Quran and every muslim knows some Surahs or Ayat and can understand many of them when reading the Quran, even if the book itself is incredibly difficult.

>>21329837
I worry we lost a lot of anons to the Marie Kondo Shinto phase who took the 30 books limit seriously.

>>21329892
>>21329894
My old Kenyan coworker was a Muslim who went to a Christian church and spoke Arabic fluently. Muslims learn Arabic, even in poor despotic Africa, this dude literally showed me a picture of him with a shield and spear in his home village in rural Kenya.

>>21329992
>the Quran is untranslatable cope
Then how non-arab muslims know Quran is the truth if they can't understand it in translation?

>>21330040
It is not that they cannot understand the translation, but that they are reading a translation and not the holy Quran itself. If it is not in the language the quran came in, then it is merely a valiant human effort to attempt to translate or elucidate divine inspiration into another language.

Besides you can know something is the truth if you are not able to read it in the original language. Almost no christian understands assyrian, and read the bible in english or in their own language, yet still think it is the truth. Most people are not able to understand the math and symbols behind the theory of gravity for example, yet still see it as truth (more or less).

Also in Islam there is a term called Fitra which is that every person is born being muslim if not influenced by anything. Not necessarily that they follow all islamic teachings, but that they hold a belief or something inside of them which is similar to islam or to the fundamental aspects of islam. So even without absolutely any interaction not just with the Quran, but with anything related to islam itself, many muslims believe you can still be muslim (more or less). This is the reason some westerners say they are "reverts" and not "converts".

>>21330195
>divine inspiration
Not divine inspiration, but the word of god.

>>21330195
>It is not that they cannot understand the translation, but that they are reading a translation and not the holy Quran itself. If it is not in the language the quran came in, then it is merely a valiant human effort to attempt to translate or elucidate divine inspiration into another language.
Then again how can they be sure the Quran is the truth if they can't access it?
>Besides you can know something is the truth if you are not able to read it in the original language.
Indeed and that's why the point that the Quran can only be evaluated in arabic is dumb.
> Almost no christian understands assyrian,
The OT is written in hebrew, not assyro-chaldean and the NT in greek, greek speakers read it in the original.
> Most people are not able to understand the math and symbols behind the theory of gravity for example, yet still see it as truth (more or less).
Gravity is a natural phenomon of which the theory of gravity is simply a description able to provide predictions. You don't need maths to guess gravity is real, you just have to watch objects fall. The Quran is not a natural phenomenon.

>>21330223
>Then again how can they be sure the Quran is the truth if they can't access it?
An approximation of the truth does not deny the truth itself. You can follow a cake recipe in another language, and still get a perfect cake even if you dont speak that language lmao

>>21330379
>An approximation of the truth does not deny the truth itself. You can follow a cake recipe in another language, and still get a perfect cake even if you dont speak that language lmao
So one can't evaluate the Quran if read in tanslation except if the evaluation is that the Quran is the absolute eternal truth spoken by God himself?

>>21329992
>And yet countries which have Islam as part of their governance (the gulf countries) have: some of the lowest suicide rates, some of the highest happiness rates, while also having some of the lowest ssri rates in the world

Or
>being rich (gulf countries)
>too shit at accurately registering the cause of death (entire middle east)
By your logic the middle east really DOES have the lowest cancer rates in the world - a claim I know you won't defend. You will probably say that it's not the same without giving specific reasons as to why because you're an apologist unsatisfied with the amount of people blindly buying your bullshit.

>>21330195
>It is not that they cannot understand the translation, but that they are reading a translation and not the holy Quran itself. If it is not in the language the quran came in, then it is merely a valiant human effort to attempt to translate or elucidate divine inspiration into another language.
If they can know whether it is true or not then they can also know whether it is false. Therefore we don't need to speak arabic to know whether the quran is false.

>>21330223
>You don't need maths to guess gravity is real, you just have to watch objects fall
And yet it took until Newton, and later the great Einstein to have an understanding of Gravity that is closer to what we have today. There were many many different understandings or interpretations of "objects falling" like the Aristotlians who thought that every object naturally moves to its rightful place such as an apple to the ground or a star to the sky. In fact Newton himself was dismissed because the idea of some all powerful magical invisible force that always pushed you to the ground was absurd. Observing an object falling does not give you any actual real knowledge of the mechanisms of the universe, you just think that the current understanding of gravity is self-evident because it is the belief of our time and we grew up with it. And the same way you can say an object falling is proof of gravity, a religious person can say that it is also proof of god.

>>21330431
>By your logic the middle east really DOES have the lowest cancer rates in the world - a claim I know you won't defend. You will probably say that it's not the same without giving specific reasons as to why because you're an apologist unsatisfied with the amount of people blindly buying your bullshit.
Yes I actually will defend the middle east (more like the gulf) and, unlike what you thought, I believe it is completely believable they have some of the lowest cancer rates. Their citizens enjoy almost unbelievable benefits. But if you mean the middle east and north africa and the arab world as a whole rather than the gulf, then it is probably not because of the great benefits, but rather because of (or in combination with) genetic factors or environmental factors and a lack of strong data in poorer countries (but that is more on those who did the study).
Besides it is not completely unreasonable that islam lowers suicide rates. If according to your religion, if you are of sound mind and commit suicide then you have commited a major sin, then it makes complete sense that suicide rates would be lower. Most studies also show that religion (not islam specifically) as well as exercise and other things are factors against suicide, and the rates of suicide amongst muslims in the west according to many studies are much much lower than their peers or to comparable populations.

>>21330436
>Therefore we don't need to speak arabic to know whether the quran is false.
I never said you must understand arabic to believe or to not believe the Quran, I was simply responding to claims about its merit as a great work of literature by saying that it is more or less untranslatable according to both the religion itself, but also because the text's complexity and the complexity of the arabic language. The same way a greatly complex poetic verse might sound tacky or not beautiful when translated from its original language.
I do not think this is particularly controversial either.

>>21330619
>And yet it took until Newton, and later the great Einstein to have an understanding of Gravity that is closer to what we have today. There were many many different understandings or interpretations of "objects falling" like the Aristotlians who thought that every object naturally moves to its rightful place such as an apple to the ground or a star to the sky. In fact Newton himself was dismissed because the idea of some all powerful magical invisible force that always pushed you to the ground was absurd. Observing an object falling does not give you any actual real knowledge of the mechanisms of the universe, you just think that the current understanding of gravity is self-evident because it is the belief of our time and we grew up with it. And the same way you can say an object falling is proof of gravity, a religious person can say that it is also proof of god.
The point there is that neither Aristotle, Newton or Einstein created gravity, gravity is a natural phenomenon that occurs whatever theory men come up about. It occurs whether or not men are able to understand Newton's theory. It is a fact of nature everybody percieves.
>And the same way you can say an object falling is proof of gravity, a religious person can say that it is also proof of god.
Those religious persons are stupid then, because they circulary attribute every phenomenon to God and prove God's existence by the phenomenons they attributed to it. It's low IQ theology muslims are very prone to fall into. Not even discussing how it neuters any potential scientific and philosophical inquiry into the nature of things "why does it fall? Allah wants it!".

>>21330619
>I never said you must understand arabic to believe or to not believe the Quran, I was simply responding to claims about its merit as a great work of literature by saying that it is more or less untranslatable according to both the religion itself, but also because the text's complexity and the complexity of the arabic language. The same way a greatly complex poetic verse might sound tacky or not beautiful when translated from its original language.
>I do not think this is particularly controversial either.
You're bullshiting your wayv with the untranslantable arabic cope, but that doesn't excuse the poor structure, the obvious collage, the massive repetitions, the contradictions, the non-sensical, poor adaptation of biblical stories and the overall absence of point and interest of that unreadable book.

>>21330619
Muslims have terrible health overall. They're obese, prone to diabete, have awful diet, etc.

>>21330665

>>21327565
1/5 of the quran is understandable
3/5 of the quran is a mishmash of late ancient Christian literature
1/5 is just Mohammed growling

>>21330619
>I believe it is completely believable they have some of the lowest cancer rates

You scored a huge owngoal here and don't even realize why. For the reasons I gave you in the post you responded to, the claim that ''the cancer rates in the middle east are the lowest in the world'' (1) can be safely dismissed.
But besides at backwards countries being bad at detecting cancer, here are some other factual reasons that you haven't even considered finding a defense against:
>the life expectancy in the middle east is lower than that in the west
>cancer is by an large an age-related disease
Figure the conclusion out by yourself.

>but rather because of (or in combination with) genetic factors or environmental factors
The medical community would like to buy your crystal orb in which you found this information. Provide evidence or prepare to concede this as hearsay.

Now if we were to adjust for cancer mortality after detection, we would get a more interesting discussion. I demand that you concede your claim (1) unless you find persuasive arguments for why you won't.