/lit/ - Literature

>>21324567
Literal Marxist conspiracy to debase the catholic church.

>>21324696
More Catholic than you, chud.

>>21324706
Yeah, I'm atheist after all. Doesn't change the truth.

>>21324718
>lifelong Catholic Marxists are a conspiracy but you, an atheist, know better and totally aren't the real outside influence

>>21324567
How?

>nignog ooga booga crucifix to go with nignog ooga bogga theology

>>21324731
Born and raised catholic in the biggest catholic countryof monkeys in the world. And encountered more faggots from this Marxist abomination than I should, they are literally possessed, and I don't even believe in possession.

>>21324696
>nooooooo you cant just help the poor noooooo

>>21324567
Liberation theology fails on the simple fact that it’s one of the biggest oppressors of the poor pretending like they were on the poor’s side all along, especially in Latin America. People alive today can remember their grandparents telling them about the friars living like kings off the peasant’s labor, and no amount of appealing to the humble beginnings of the church or a socialist reading of some obscure documents will change that

>>21324740
Jesus was a communist of the soul, and to build His kingdom on Earth today is to be a communist so He may reign for all eternity.
>>21324756
Cry about it.
>>21324763
Racism is wrong. Don't stoop down to his level.
>>21324765
The Church is an arena of class struggle like any other - there is no disregard for the mistakes of men in His Church.

>>21324765
Only correct post
>>21324696
It's the other way round
Read Leopardi (paraphrasing, "It is useful for the prince to create a small faction of opposers")
Read Tolstoy (paraphrasing, "To beat socialists you have to englobe their ideals in a bigger one")

>>21324763
>noooo you can't just help the poor by pure charity without adopting a *not at all marxist* worldview of how to properly™ do it

>>21324763
>help the poor
The purpose of Cathilocommunism is to institute global favela planet ruled over by a semi literate priest caste, that keeps the monkeys somewhat in line and eases the suffering of their existence. This just sort of goes on forever until the world is destroyed.

>>21324786
Cringe.
>>21324790
Simple charity is outdated for the present epoch, read the book, chud.

>>21324776
see
>>21324790
>>noooo you can't just help the poor by pure charity without adopting a *not at all marxist* worldview of class struggle™

>>21324765
Thomas Merton also mentions this being true in India, where the average Christian missionary was never held in high regard due to having a higher standard of living than the average person and also eating meat.

>>21324795
What?
The revolution will be secular, liberation theology is just a spiritual process. We don't want a ruling priest class, we want a dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>21324776
> arena of class struggle like any other
Which is why anyone trying to reform it beyond “we need to be more spiritual” is labeled a heretic and thrown out. Even Liberation theology is concidered heretical (Francis’ theology of the Pueblo is basically a half hearted concession that boils down to “the poor should be concidered, but they should also trust their authorities”. If Liberation Theology was really powerful, it would have been in place already in the church instead of the arena of Latino boomers and larping westerners. And again, that’s because actual revolution threatens the power of the church, see Thomas Muntzer for someone who tried to stage a Christian socialist coup and got tortured to death by both Catholics and Lutherans for it

Logo/KuntBot thread?

>>21324796
>Being christian is outdated chud, the new christian sis™ should help the poor by the *totally not marxist" way of viewing everything like a marxist would

>>21324818
Yes, it threatens the power of the present Church. That doesn't debunk our theory doe. We just need a revolution in the Church :^]

>>21324810
So by your own admission liberation theology is just a means of turning Catholics to embrace Communist ideology which is atheist--why should you be taken seriously if your ultimate goals are anti-Catholic?

>>21324796
>leopardi and tolstoy
>"cringe"
Sic

It's pretty funny. The first anon said it's a "Literal Marxist conspiracy to debase the catholic church." and got pilled on. Then the other anons in the thread goes full retarded and says: "lets do a Marxist revolution on the church!"

>>21324871
This. If communism and revolution are the goals, why bother incorporating religion at all?

>>21324902
>If communism and revolution are the goals
They're not the goal.
It's just an attempt to reform Christianity.
But, to quote Vattimo
>The tradition of the Catholic Church is based on keeping the faithful under terrorist threats. The story of Eluana Englaro demonstrates that the Catholic Church as an institution cannot be reformed, it only deserves to be destroyed. We are at the final madness of the Church. I have never been so aware of the evil essence of the Catholic Church as now.

>>21324902
To stealth convert a great number of people. Way more subtle than just saying "lets join the regime that committed the most genocides during he 20th century!"

>>21324871
>>21324902
Because Christians have an obligation to be communist, and I don't believe communism will make everyone atheist (on the contrary, capitalism has led to increased atheism in the form of commodity fetishism - communism would solve this and open up a new road to religiosity). Still, the greater revolution itself should be secular to avoid sectarianism and stand for the poor as a whole. Please read:
>>21318116
Nah.
https://archive.org/details/SlantManifestoCatholicsAndTheLeft
https://archive.org/details/marxismchristian0000turn
>>21324929
Meds.

>>21324941 (me, cont'd)
To sum up: grace should not be enforced, but hearts should open up to God by their own will.

>>21324941
>Because Christians have an obligation to be communist
Is this the part where commies define "communism" as "vague good thing that everyone should want because I said so"
>I don't believe communism will make everyone atheist (on the contrary, capitalism has led to increased atheism in the form of commodity fetishism - communism would solve this and open up a new road to religiosity)
Yep I guess it is

>commodity fetishism
This is not a real thing, btw. People like objects, they like having objects for their own sake. This is not a product of capitalism but the fact that we are living things that value having resources. Fucking autists.

>>21324993
That's not what commodity fetishism is lmao. Actually read Marx, I beg you.

>>21324795
anyone who creates those basedjak memes should be put to death

>>21325004
No, fuck off, explaining YOUR TERMS is YOUR JOB.

>>21324941
in discussing Thomas Muntzer, Engels basically states everything wrong with even the most people led versions of Liberation Theology. Perhaps he's wrong (as the last 100+ years showed), but this cuts to the heart of it (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/11/18.htm):
> There is a greater chance in Germany for the establishment of a Communist party among the educated classes of society, than anywhere else. The Germans are a very disinterested nation; if in Germany principle comes into collision with interest, principle will almost always silence the claims of interest. The same love of abstract principle, the same disregard of reality and self-interest, which have brought the Germans to a state of political nonentity, these very same qualities guarantee the success of philosophical Communism in that country. It will appear very singular to Englishmen, that a party which aims at the destruction of private property is chiefly made up by those who have property; and yet this is the case in Germany. We can recruit our ranks from those classes only which have enjoyed a pretty good education; that is, from the universities and from the commercial class; and in either we have not hitherto met with any considerable difficulty.
> As to the particular doctrines of our party, we agree much more with the English Socialists than with any other party. Their system, like ours, is founded upon philosophical principle; they struggle, as we do, against religious prejudices whilst the French reject philosophy and perpetuate religion by dragging it over with themselves into the projected new state of society. The French Communists could assist us in the first stages only of our development, and we soon found that we knew more than our teachers; but we shall have to learn a great deal yet from the English Socialists. Although our fundamental principles give us a broader base, inasmuch as we received them from a system of philosophy embracing every part of human knowledge; yet in everything bearing upon practice, upon the facts of the present state of society, we find that the English Socialists are a long way before us, and have left very little to be done. I may say, besides, that I have met with English Socialists with whom I agree upon almost every question.
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/11/18.htm
TL;DR: Socialism should be based purely on analysis of conditions and training in that analysis, not appealing solely to the emotional components and popular spirituality of the people. Emotion and religious-like displays do work to stoke the revolutionary spirit, but will fail if common yokels are just running amuck in the name of God and the People causing trouble.

>>21325006
>anyone who creates those basedjak memes should be put to death

>>21325015
read a book or stop complaining you don't know what basic concepts mean. it's not an obscure thing and frequently discussed outside of marx.

>>21325024
My post literally agrees with Engels, doe. I said the greater revolution should be secular in unity with a revolution in the Church itself.
He was wrong about Germany btw

>>21325044
>a term so basic that it can't be concisely explained on 4chan.org
This is basically how every discussion with commies goes and what makes it a total waste of time. They insist you digest a laundry list of terms that barely exist outside of the academy in order to even talk to them, instead of just writing so that they can be understood. The equivalent would be me dropping terms like "transubstantiation" in a conversation in a bar in a non-Catholic country. Explain your terms or fuck off.

>>21325098
Look it's hard to explain in a few sentences, how about this? Sorry our theory isn't just "Jews do bad thing" over and over.
https://ren try dot co/ugqiu

>>21324567
Since the only arguments for and against this are memes and insults I guess it's worth a read.

>>21324731
Atheism is just Judaism for good goys

Consider this: there is no freedom, we are all slaves to our passions.

>>21324696
How?

>>21324567
>Thus the first step is taken through the gate of revolution, which forms the premise of liberation. Liberation theologies form the next step, based, of course, on a theological argument: if God is the Liberator, the gospel is a gospel of liberation. But God intervenes in history only through human hands. Thus humankind must liberate itself. At this point, no need bothering with anything further: we can safely sail on the high sea of human political actions. Liberation is a human affair. That is, it has to do with all oppressed people, believers or unbelievers. If they are oppressed, that suffices. Politics is the means of liberation. We abandoned nonpolitical slavery along the way This is a strange development, yet fundamentally understandable: humanity is alone on the earth, so that its future depends on its own efforts. What if, by some chance, tragically, people were evil, weak, and corrupted? What if, by some terrible chance, they were basically sinners, as the Bible says? Such a thing is inconceivable! It would mean instant suicide. At this point, without remorse (psychoanalysis helps us here), we explain the purely illusory and mythological origin of this "notion" of sin. No, people are neither corrupted nor sinners. They are basically good. Only an erroneous understanding of the biblical text could make us believe otherwise. Humanity is merely alienated, stripped of its essential being by economic and political structures. Simply by eliminating this alienation, humanity will return to its essential nature (we gloss carefully over the fact that such alienation must have its source in other people, who must not be as good as all that; but we must quickly forget this).

>>21325875
Thanks based Ellul poster

>>21324567
>written by a catholic
>is about base materialism and satisfying stupid needs

Clockwork.

>>21324932
>"lets join the regime that committed the most genocides during he 20th century!"
literally never happened

>>21326841
>t.believes in prosperity gospel
kek

>>21325505
read this thread and you'll see the defenders of this ideology literally call for a communist revolution in the church and actively deny the genocide of millions of people by marxist regimes.

>>21327666
>genocide of millions of people by marxist regimes
literally never happened
>literally call for a communist revolution in the church
literally never happened

>>21328772
>literally never happened
>literally never happened
>literally never happened
>literally never happened
t.

>>21328811
You're a moron
No serious person advocates for a "communist revolution within the church" - the church only needs to be destroyed. Only priests want to save the church, who else?
>I-ITS A GENOCIDE!!1
Name one (1) genocide of millions of people by marxists regimes
pro tip: the so called holodomor was a famine

>>21328832
>No serious person advocates for a "communist revolution within the church" - the church only needs to be destroyed.
No serious person advocates for a "revolution within the french monarchy" - the french monarchy only needs to be destroyed.
Don't try to wiggle it out of it.
>Only priests want to save the church, who else?
The people of faith.
>Name one (1) genocide of millions of people by marxists regimes
>pro tip: the so called holodomor was a famine
Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
And yes. It's a fucking genocide you retard.
You are literally trying to justify millions of people dying and an attempt to destruct the holy church by childish wordplay, you are satanically possessed.

>>21328934
>No serious person advocates for a "revolution within the french monarchy" - the french monarchy only needs to be destroyed.
>Don't try to wiggle it out of it.
what
>The people of faith.
They literally have no idea what their faith consists of. They have no idea what the church is, or what it does. They probably can't name one prophet, or three books from OT. They think exhanging gifts in late december is christianity.
>links mass killing
>YES IT IS GENOCIDE
the absolute ignoramus
>I-ITS A SATAN!!!
Go read "Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias"