/lit/ - Literature

>>21323023
>read history book X
>half of 4chin says the book is lying and propaganda
>other half say it's legitimate and based

who do I trust
when do I know a history book is lying to me
do I have to come back in time

>>21323035
You read the reviews of the book in the relevant journals. AHR is a standard degree mill journal for reviews. If the book lacks scholarly journal reviews then it is worth exactly that: nothing. For specialised works such as labour history you'd seek IISG's IRSH or Labor/La Travail, etc.

Its pretty simple to be honest.

If you want a seminal work of history widely acknowledged, then just read Browning C 1993 _Ordinary Men_. Then go ask Grandfather what he actually did. Stare him down. He'll crack. Mine did.

>>21323035
>who do I trust
Don't trust jews.
>when do I know a history book is lying to me
Anything written after 1950 is lying to you

Is this actually the best biography of Thomas Paine? Google says it is but I would like to be a bit more certain.

>>21323035
What people 4chan say has no relevance to this. Most posters here nowadays just bark out very tenuously-, or even insincerely-held, opinions as a hobby to kill time, even if half of them admittedly lack the self-awareness to realize this is all they're doing. You can still (rarely) get some decent advice or links on some boards, but meaningful debate about anything no longer happens on this site, even on /lit/.

The only way to know when a history book is lying (aside from ones with red flags obvious to anyone with even a dash of skepticism) is just to obsessively read more and more history until you start to get your bearings and can appraise things on your own. Importantly, this will also require learning to shelf any sentimental attachments you have to ideologies, nations, or narratives of events which strike you as more superficially entertaining. If you are just treating history as a myth-pool from which water can be drawn to nourish your delusions and favorite stories about the world — and the overwhelming majority of people do —, you'll never get there (although you probably also won't notice or care).

>>21323096
https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22craig+nelson%22
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24454341?searchText=%22craig%20nelson%22&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2522craig%2Bnelson%2522&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6646_phrase_search%2Fltr&refreqid=fastly-default%3A32ea2a30eda799325b9dc4d6774ffb86
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40244868?searchText=%22craig%20nelson%22&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2522craig%2Bnelson%2522&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6646_phrase_search%2Fltr&refreqid=fastly-default%3A4d4e3fc9eb7af6a7930fcededb4cf35c

Look up the scholarly reviews next time. The fact that the New England gets his name wrong in the first paragraph of the review…

>>21323023
Can anyone tell me how picrelated compares to OP's book, and if the older Penguin translation from the 1960s is good?

>>21323096
Suitably long and up to date, I’d say so. Even some of the three star reviews are just sour on the lack of firsthand accounts. Aside from reading all his works directly, I think this should be a good if not best read

>>21323023
from dawn to decadence
birth of classical europe
the ancient city by numa

>>21323023

>>21323419
That isn't history. Even the Mediterranean in the age of Phillip is widely considered to deal with too long a time period.

>>21323162
>>21323377
thanks a bunch for your help

>>21323317
I mean it's a 'first hand account' vs a contemporary retelling. OPs book no doubt considers multiple sources and has the benefit of hindsight, so if you're looking for facts with well documented evidence that's your first choice. But Diaz was actually there with Cortes and all the rest, so his interpretation of events is obviously important. The circumstances around his publishing, though-- that he was trying to paint the expeditions in a positive light, for personal gain-- might suggest that it's less than trustworthy in some regards. Choose which historical perspective you value more, and if you have the time and interest read both. It's not rocket science

>>21323162
are you dumb? His parents were named "Pain" hence he was born Thomas Pain. He appended the "e" later in life. This was a pretty common thing back then. Shakespeare spelt his own name at least 4 different ways. While academic journals are a good resource, you should receive a general education before jumping into them.

>>21323973
okay, i admit that was sort of harsh. Reading reviews before reading is always good advice. Even if you are determined to read it anyways, you should still check a few reviews; it primes your memory for better retention.

>>21323023
I'm currently reading Fawn M. Brodie's biography on Thomas Jefferson. It's definitely a little different from most biographies I read because it mostly focuses on Jefferson's inner world and personal relationships. Makes sense since it's written by a woman, but I really like seeing a different perspective of history even if she sometimes overthinks the psychoanalysis and stretches conclusions. I definitely recommend it, but if you're not familiar with the period then you might want a more cut and dry overview. I would recommend The Glorious Cause by Robert Middlekauff for that.

I personally just love this time period. There is just so much excitement and energy at America's founding. It really was unprecedented and the ideas springing from the genius minds of their day are so pure, honest, and good. I think we can all see that in the end, thier ideas were for naught, but it doesn't stop me from getting lost in the era and it's timeless message.

i don't know if this is the right place to look for reccomendations, but i was wondering if anyone knew some good a text covering the holy roman empire from founding up to its dissolution. I have a history buff i'm christmas shopping for.

>>21323035
you have to be humble and accept that it is impossible to be certain about any history

Old thread already died?

>>21323035
You must discern the difference between historical fact and Truth.

The factual accuracy of history is impossible to corroborate. Look at history as stories. They're just stories. The stories may declare some truths. Not historical fact, but truths, like things like philosophical goodness, so to speak.

And it doesn't just tell us truths about the characters and era the story is set in, it tell us, perhaps more importantly, more about the author, their camp, and the era that the history book itself was written.

For example, in the world of anthropology, which receives a lot of the same treatment that history does, you'll notice a lot of girl-power and some woke framing in many of the studies. Of course it's all bull, but there's still a lot to learn. Three hundred years from now, historians will look at some primary sources of ours, these "Evidence found of Scandinavian worship of Black Egyptian Deities", and they'll learn more about the 2022 zeitgeist than of the Scandinavians the primary source ostensibly claims authority on.

And some stories are just fun, interesting reads.

>>21323023

>>21323393
>the ancient city by numa
That's good.

Somewhat recent book by an actually respectable scholar. This one is much better than the other book by that Frankopan guy if anyone is interested in this topic.

>>21325113
Kino cover!

>>21323035
If it says that a white person ever did something bad to a nonwhite person, it's Jewish propaganda.
Never read anything about nonwhite cultures unless it's about how disgusting they are.

>>21324521
The Habsburgs by Martyn Rady

>>21323035
You read the book with an open mind and question claims you find dubious or completely stupid. Ya know... like you should be doing with every non-fiction book.

>>21323023
Álvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca's memoirs

>>21325574
As everyone seems to be reading about the conquistadors, I’m gonna recommend Prescott’s Conquest of Mexico. It’s the classic account, and sometimes closer to poetry or Homeric epic than history. Prescott went blind after losing one eye in a food fight and then another to infection, and thereafter dictated his work.

Just read the intro to The Alexiad and shit am I gonna need to write a fuck ton of notes

Because historical books cannot exist without bias. This is due to the limited size of books. You remember almost all the facts about important events in you life right? Now increase the time scale and it becomes necessary to pick and choose details, meaning you leave in what you believe is important and supports whatever claim you're making about what really happened. Then add in the fact that these claims can have serious real world implications if they're taken to be true.

>>21323153
What’s the opposite of the myth pool way of reading history, if feel like I may be guilty of it, especially when reading about my home country. I’m genuinely interested.

>>21324339
Jefferson understood the principles of Liberty better than any of the Founders, and better than anyone else whose work I've ever come across.

Is A People’s Tragedy worth reading? It sounds really interesting but I’ve heard it accused (mostly by leftists) of bad scholarship

>>21323973
>>21324005
Yeah because I'm handing out free handjobs about a bourgeois intellectual's biography waqy outside my specialty when I'm *trying* to teach the cunt how to look up scholarly book reviews for himself. Next time you make a single slip up about Soviet, Soviet-aligned or labour movement history expect me to pull eight teeth first.

I still do think its suss that William and Mary didn't have a review.

Does anyone have any good lesser known books on Teddy Roosevelt?
I've already read the Edmund Morris trilogy, Wilderness Warrior, and his own autobiography.
>>21326477
It's the only book I've read on the Russian Revolution and I really enjoyed it.

>>21325486
This one cannot read beyond infographics most assuredly.

>>21326477
Figes? You know he did pseudonymous online reviews of his own works?

Sure. I'd prefer you read Nove-Millar, Allen "Farm to Factory," Conquest, Andrle and Fitzpatrick before you read obtuse historians with marginal ethics. Just as long as you don't touch Applebaum's shite.

The question is why you're reading soviet history? Look up the Nove-Millar debate for an example of why people do Soviet History. Fitzpatrick's question was "who did the great purge" and the answer wasn't a nice clean stalin. Andrle wanted to know how workers and workplaces worked in low Soviet fordism during the enclosures.

To the Finland Station
All That Is Sold Melts Into Air

10/10 books.

This book convinced me of just how evil and incorrigibly evil communism is.

Recently read this.

>>21326620
When the most prominent author in your collection attacks your introduction and the collection itself… "wew lad."

>>21327341
>t. didn't read the introduction
They clearly state all the stats in the book are based on actual records most of which were still sealed up at the time, so if anything the numbers were on the low end based on what the researchers had.

>>21323023
This trilogy on the history of the Spanish Empire.

>>21323393
Seconding Dawn to Decadence, that is an exceptionally erudite tome.

>>21327350
I've read the introduction to the black book at length due to Courtois' historiographical failings. What telos does Courtois use to justify his moral position? You should know this, you've just claimed to have read it.

Linking the last good his thread>>21300358
because this one is dogshit

>You read the reviews of the book in the relevant journals
I dunno man. A lot of these people are part of the propaganda themselves. Not to mention there is this new trend of whitewashing everything, saying anything bad written about a civilization was just from colonial pov.

>>21327561
>the propaganda
>whitewashing
>civilization
Honey, go read Wallerstein.

>>21327320
Planning on reading it
Is it good?

>>21327662
>Wallerstein.
>His parents were Polish Jews
Honey I would rather not

>>21328052
It was an enjoyable read. I found it particularly helpful that the author gave a through explanation of the historical context of the southern plains area before Quanah's time.

>>21323023
It doesn't get better than these

kino.

>>21329795
>kino.
fiction for children.

>>21323317
>>21323771
>that he was trying to paint the expeditions in a positive light, for personal gain
the story everyone told back then gave cortes all the credit. He began writing down the story, partially to verify some stuff to do with certain people owning wealth I believe, but also to set the score straight and honour his fellow conquistadors that fought and died with him
he's very honest and writes with honour and respect, even about the mexicans that he fought. "We came to the new world for God and to get rich"

>>21323023
>Post good history books actually worth reading
Robert Leckie writes some very underrated popular history IMO.

>>21331084
>delivered from evil
>saga
>doesn't point the delivery or sage as a national imaginary but claims it to be the thing in itself
No telos here, no sir, none at all.

Bomp

>>21323023
loved this one

>>21331084
>Delivered from evil
I think they might want to re-evaluate this

an absolute gem for anyone that loves Homer, ancient myths in general, and interested in how the myths compare or merge with Old Testament.

>>21323035
>when do I know a history book is lying to me
You compare it to other history books, the primary sources themselves they are quoting, and IMO based 1920s history sources that do not care about political correctness.

See where they all agree on points, see where they disagree - look into why they disagree.

Most importantly, have fun

t. History BA

Just picked up "The Medieval Village" by G.G Coulton and "Western Warfare In The Age Of The Crusades" by John France.

Will be reading them soon. Still working through the 1619 project.

Im reading pic related. Very comfy.

>>21323035
Never take /lit/ seriously, especially post 2015

>>21323035
>who do I trust
god and to a lesser extent jesus

>A history of western political thought by McClelland.
Really a very good single volume overview. It was published in 1998 and doesn't cover many ideas that you you would find after 1990. This isn't really a bad thing as you don't have to endure the pointless "post-debates" of 90's academia among other tiresome nonsense (The term "feminism" doesn't even feature in the index!)

Tom Paulin thought it was great and he HATES everything.

>>21323023
I highly recommend Gedanken und Erinnerungen (Thoughts and Memories), Otto von Bismarck's memoirs. It's a fascinating perspective on the Victorian era from its greatest political mastermind and demonstrates how Bismarck accomplished his remarkable feats. He makes contemporary politicians look like pathetic babbling babies. It really shows how short shrifted and disserviced we are by the current crop of sycophantic weaklings in politics. Nobody in contemporary politics matches the Iron Chancellor's diplomatic skill, strategic cunning and pragmatic judiciousness.

>>21333787
Also what's with politicians just wearing lame ass suits these days. So lame.

>>21333793
>“What miserable pigmies our sham statesmen in Germany appear by comparison with him. And how nauseating it is to witness the conceit and effrontery of these nonentities in criticizing a man who is a thousand times greater than them. And how painful it is to think that this takes place in a country which could point to a Bismarck as its leader as recently as fifty years ago.”
Hitler concurred. It was true even just a generation after him.

>>21329795
Yep.

>>21329804
You've never read it. It's great and not much is outdated.

>>21335555
No I've just read the scholarly reviews and a chapter. Its teleological liberal bullshit. It is grossly outdated and its project isn't history but fabulism.

>>21323023
>hmm, today I will set a quota for the number of people who need to be excecuted for treason

>>21335963
Any other good books on Chinese history? Particularly ones on how they've always been a brutal civilization.

Not particularly history but recommend books like https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8861755-the-politics-and-government-of-switzerland

>>21336254
>Decisive Tang Victory

>>21323023
One of the only books on the pre-colonial Americas. Focuses mostly on South America since more civilization was there though.

>>21329795
The section on Late Antiquity just sucks, is outright wrong or doesn't explain enough to be useful in any sense.

>>21336779
Good choice anon. Not written by a historian, but he’s an excellent writer who does a good job summarizing a lot of the more recent scholarship on the pre-Colombian Americas. Don’t let any retard here try to tell you that it’s pozzed because it shows that early indigenous people were not all bloodthirsty savages.

Just finished Failure of Empire. Very fun book. Enjoyed it quite a lot.
Going on to read 'Blood Royal: Dynastic politics in Medieval Europe'. I've read the first 100 or so pages and I'm enjoying it as well.

>>21333640
>John France.
Nice stuff. He writes some great stuff so you won't be disappointed, pick up his 'Victory in the East' as well if you can (or are interested in the First Crusade)

>>21329135
I wonder how many people actually read this. It's often namedropped and hailed as this great work and yet nobody has anything to say about it next to that. I have a similar suspicion about The Power Broker.

>>21329135
I've finished 3/4 of these. Some of my favorite books. A few things I love about these. For one, "biography of LBJ" is a thin veneer of what these books actually accomplish. Yes of course Caro lived in the archives and we get the closest thing to the man in the flesh, but these books are so much more than that. I.e:
vol 1 - Young LBJ, but also a history of the state of Texas post-statehood and the New Deal and its implementation, specifically in Texas (which, as we learn, because of LBJ was the state to receive nearly the most New Deal funding)
Vol. 2 - history of electoral politics in Texas, and the domestic side of WWII politics at a national level
Vol 3. Functions alternately as a history of the US Senate and then the Cold War + beginnings of civil rights as fought legislatively in that august body.
haven't read vol 4 yet unforch.

Moreover, these books also feature incredible biographies within biographies:
vol 1 - Sam Rayburn + Abe Fortas + Brown & Root Construction (ever heard of Halliburton?)
vol 2 - Coke Stevenson - I would read just these chapters in a book on their own
vol 3 - Richard Russell

These books are beyond goated. Can't wait to read vol 4 in the next few months and then power broker after that.

Other good history books:
Rule of Experts by Timothy Mitchell. In fact anything by Timothy Mitchell
Trade and Civilisation in the Indian Ocean and Asia before Europe, both by KN Chaudhuri. These were formative for me and led me to Braudel the GOAT

honorable mentions: Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein, anything by Illan Pappe, Esra Ackan (for architectural history); the making of the atom bomb by richard rhodes

>>21323035
if you agree with it then it's based and truthful if it makes you mad it's propaganda

>>21325113
Looks cool. I would pair this with the Waning of the Middle Ages by Huizinga

>>21323023
Currently reading Dan Jones' The Plantagenets, I'll admit, it's a fun pop-history read. I sort of hate the author because he looks like a chad and that doesn't conform to my expectations of how a historian should look like.

>>21337411
>These books are beyond goated. Can't wait to read vol 4 in the next few months and then power broker after that.
You're in for an absolute treat. Vol 4 and the Power Broker are my two favorites by Caro.
Volume 5 covering Vietnam is going to be incredible.

Knowing you're a Caro fan, I will check out your suggested history books. Any other recommendations?

>>21323023
What are good books on islamic history

>>21337594
>Knowing you're a Caro fan, I will check out your suggested history books. Any other recommendations?
Worth noting the other recommendations I mentioned are nothing like Caro so fair warning there. Hard to find comparable works to his depth DESU, maybe the Richard Rhodes one on the atom bomb would be the closest of that list. Funny enough I have also enjoyed much of what I've read from Kissinger and it scratches that "inside track" US history itch. Diplomacy is on his more scholarly side, but the memoirs White House Years and Years of Upheavel go hard. Have his book on China on my shelf and plan to read it Q1 2023.

this one is on my list and you might appreciate it as well: The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. I don't know much about it but it comes to me highly recommended.

Pic related is my favorite book I read on the Civil War, but more a cultural history of the 1860s than a proper history of the war as such.

I have also greatly appreciated The Black Jacobins by CLR James

>>21337675
>this one is on my list and you might appreciate it as well: The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. I don't know much about it but it comes to me highly recommended.
We have similar tastes, I also have this on my list.
Thank you for the recs. I wish /lit/ enjoyed history more and I wish /his/ enjoyed reading more

>>21337675
I have to ask, would you happen to be the same anon who has an impressive collection of history books that's often posted in bookshelf threads?

>>21337675
>>21337724
I've never heard of David Talbot but his books sound fascinating! Have either of you guys read By the light of burning dreams.? Both that and The Devil's Chessboard have really piqued my interests.

>>21323069
>Then go ask Grandfather what he actually did. Stare him down. He'll crack. Mine did
Care to share more?

>>21337780
>Have either of you guys read By the light of burning dreams.?
I have not. Any other history suggestions since you're interested in Devil's Chessboard too?

>>21337773
>I have to ask, would you happen to be the same anon who has an impressive collection of history books that's often posted in bookshelf threads?
Alas that is not me. I've been reading lit since ~2014 and only shared a stack for the first time this October. I'll share it again here it's my Q4 2022 reading goals. Still have the Foucault, Nitzan/Bichler, Khoury, Pater, Mistry, and Yerushalmi to get through. I will finish No Logo (mids compared to Shock Doctrine) today and Summertime early next week. Also working on a Short Introduction to Clausewitz audiobook at the gym.
great to engage with some other serious readers on this board

>>21337909
The only thing that's remotely in the ballpark that I've read recently is Ghost Wars by Steve Coll. Its really, rather, very good! The CIA's shenanigans in Afghanistan from Carter to Bush Jr.

>>21325541
thanks i'm picking it up

>>21337378
>yet nobody has anything to say about it next to that
That is the case with all online book discussions.
I've read all the Caro books. They are amazing if you enjoy history and politics.

>>21329795
So true
Currently reading Caesar and Christ as well as the Age of Napoleon

Also wtf why does the Renaissance get a whole book but not the crusades or insert other medieval event

>>21337782
>what did granddad do in the war

Dumb stuff in NEI, no *after* the yanks fucked the dog dumb stuff, the kind of dumb stuff in the small memorial at Martin place; failure to accept surrender, with “fun,” on japs.

Then a lot of alcoholism in a highly structured work environment he should have moved on from. Just realised why that memorial is at Martin place. There you go.

>>21335923
It's not. Almost nothing is outdated when you compare the current literature on most of the subjects with what the Durants wrote.

Only retards who've never read it will criticize it are reddit and 4chan shills who never read the damn things.

>>21339219
The Durants are more interested in cultural history and the history of thought than political.

>>21339673
Their approach to the "history of thought" is as outdated as literary impressionism.

>>21339666
I get it, you don't like Ranke, and you like to LARP. Fuck off and put your eyes out with burning matches.

>>21339666
Here's some criticism of a few pages I've read

His criticism of Gratian of
>Left the government to corrupt officals who put every office up for sale
This is essentially Roman virtue signalling and doesn't mean anything to the actual running of the state since it was a part of Roman culture. Not to mention it is obtuse. It could be referring to payments to your superior, which eveyone had to do by law or the promotion price, which was half part of legal practice and half part of the Patron culture the Romans held.

>The Imperial governor there, Butheric
Butheric wasn't a governer but a Magister Militum. He didn't govern.

>Valentinian II was assassinated
I used to, but don't particularly agree with this anymore. The problem is however there isn't enough detail given to why exactly somebody would think that. He died by hanging which was presumably suicide or an attempt to make him look like he did. The context to the event isn't given.

>Theodosius' sons lost control of their administration
This isn't true for Arcadius, he took hold of his government and had active efforts in law and managing the military by his 20's. He was not an idle puppet, he actively and sucessfully resisted strongmen from both administration and military.

>Alaric speech
He just makes this up

>Radagaisus with 200,000 men
An impossible number and just accepted.

All this from 2.2 of 'The Age of Faith'.

>>21337610

>>21337424
It was alright. Good, basic overview focused on the medieval mindset and how it differs from our own. The writer is not a historian by trade but a professor of cultural studies, so it was very general but interesting nonetheless.

>>21323035
>>21323074
>Anything written after 1950 is lying to you
Solid aphorism

>>21339733
>pop history
>regurgitates stuff from multiple actual scholars some of whom have conflicting theories
No.

>>21337378
I've read many biographies and nothing comes comparatively close. I genuinely believe the Caro will be studied for the next millennia as the quintessential history books of the golden era of the American Empire, similar to Thucydides or Plutarch

>>21338617
I've been wanting to read this one but it's pretty thick and I've heard it's not the best. There's another one that's similar called Killing Hope that's apparently more concise. I read Surprise, Kill, Vanish by Annie Jacobsen early 2021 which is about exactly this sort of thing and really enjoyed it. I just wonder if reading Ghost Wars is really worth its length.

>>21340490
>boys messing about in boats
>fuckbois messing about in helicopters
Imperialism sure has changed.

Have you ever read anything by OPFOR?

>>21340516
>OPFOR
Whomst?

>>21340666
>Whomst?
A common military jargon in the NATO system post WWII: OPposing FORces. OPFOR acts in the narrative system as either a buffoon of Italian comedy or as Lucifer himself depending on the funding requirements. Someone who plays Fortunate Son while engaging in FPS warcrimes ought to be aware of the term.

>>21338617
Is that a good book?

>>21336779
this and 1493 are the best "big picture" history books I've read recently
Sapiens a shit

>>21323023
Just get a college level textbook

>>21341069
Any college which teaches history out of a text book is not worth attending for history.

>>21333793
Good point. If you look at the symbolism that politicians try to project with their outfits, you get an interesting view into the powers and ideals that own those politicians or that they try to coopt.

Revolutionary politicians often style themselves as generals. Now nearly everyone wears suits - specifically, *business* suits. If you look into this symbolically, you can see it in at least two ways. 1) The politicians are kowtowing to their owners, the corporations and the capitalist class 2) They want to project themselves AS business leaders, even though what they do is the opposite of the entepreneur taking on risk to provide value to mankind.

>>21323317
Its interesting if nothing else. You can argue how accurately the events are shown, but it is 100% accurate in showing you how a retired conquistador wanted the events to be seen

>>21340719
>books by opposing forces
You would like this book: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_Went_Over_the_Mountain_(1996_book)
It's a compilation of Soviet commanders' and troops' experiences and tactics, told first-hand from interviews and diary excerpts. It was compiled and translated by an American, mind you, but it was the first thing that came to my mind. I haven't read it myself either, btw, but it's on my list. There's also a companion book about the Mujahideen and Taliban in the same style.

>>21323035
It should be manifestly obvious by how they present their information. The trustworthiness of something can usually be ascertained by the methodology, framework, and process.

Something that attempts to understand rather than to question (since any good questioning should come after a well rounded understanding)

Does the book give very specific examples that illustrates a rather narrow point without acknowledging the limits of the example? does it not provide other interpretations or examples on a subject? does it seem to skew towards a narrative unduly? Does it ignore major intentions or perceptions in the period? If it honest with its scope and the limitations of its project, it should be fine.

And primarily, does it actually try to give you a nuanced understanding rather than trying to feed you a particular myopic narrative or thesis.

Are the landmark editions of both Herodotus and Thucydides the go-to versions of their works?

Can anyone recommend some good military history books for people who get bored to tears reading page after page of dry military maneuvers?

>>21341820
No.

>>21341832
In that case, what is the best?

>>21338617
>>21340490
its very comprehensive and well written by a respected journalist and rides the fine line between broadsheet journalism and hard-nosed academia. . It never really feels long or ponderous, but its also not dumbed down. Its not very hyperbolic but is still thrilling and exciting.

Its easy enough to find on libgen if you want to decide for yourself.

killing hope is about half the length and is much wider in breadth and scope... so on face value it wouldn't seem to be more concise regarding events in Afghanistan from 1977-2002..... although i've just added that to my "to read list" lol. Looks good.

>For a more pulpy related book that I enjoyed, See No Evil by robert bauer is great! Its a memoir of Bauer's time in the CIA. George Clooney's character in Syriana was based on Bauer

Good thread.

>>21323023
Read this recently and it gives a general outline of world history. its highly rated on opensyllabus.org so its definitely worth the read.

>>21341079
I raped your mother and your father.

Favorite political biographies?

>>21342709
Lincoln by David Herbert Donald

What's the best book on Napoleon for someone who knows little about him?

>>21343163
It depends how much you want to know about him. I've recently started reading the Age of Napoleon and would recommend it, but it may be a bit too long for others

>>21343163
Andrew roberts biography is a masterpiece,dense with personality , shows the world Napoleon found himself in and heavily sprinkled with wonderful looks at the side “characters” of the time viewed from Napoleon as a lense, without feeling like you are being abruptly pulled away from him

>>21341364
eh, I think thats a pretty shit take. its simply the suit of formality in general. If anything, I think it has to do with the democratization of fashion. as the same thing Johnny plumber wears to the funeral for his nan is essentially the same thing as the governed of Connecticut, save that the governer’s suit is made by some name brand, is probably tailored, and has better materials. but visually they are the same “sort” of thing.

it seems to me that formal wear reached a singularity broadly. for buisness, government, major life event, etc. its a suit/blazer.

hey bro who recced me some ancient warfare books the other day:
thread 404d but i wanted to thank you

>>21343625
What books are they?

>>21343646
lendon -- soldiers and ghosts
oconnel -- ghosts of cannae
a few more i don't have on hand because i tossed em on my goodreads to read instead of downloading

>>21343684
many thanks

I recommend Napoleon, Churchill, and The Last King of America by Andrew Roberts.

>>21323317
That one's fine. Read away. Primary sources first, always.

>>21344183
>Primary sources first, always.
Depends on if you've got the social context and language. If you do, sure, as an undergraduate. When you're writing history you're responding to existing problems in the field and your own research: secondary problems and historiographic questions predominate.

There's nothing like cracking a fresh archive though and discovering just how incompetent a general secretary of a trade union was though. Minutes ftw.

>>21341820
Yes, they are excellent. Don't listen to that other homo

>>21323069
>You read the reviews of the book in the relevant journals. AHR is a standard degree mill journal for reviews. If the book lacks scholarly journal reviews then it is worth exactly that: nothing. For specialised works such as labour history you'd seek IISG's IRSH or Labor/La Travail, etc.
you are an absolute brainlet
especially with that labor history comment, labor history is one of the most biased fields out there and they will definitely give a bad review to a book that doesn't agree with them politically

>>21329795
Based. Finishing up Life of Greece hopefully this week. Bought some military strategy books to compliment these as I move through each era. Will probably will read significant literature to get a better understanding of the period.

Wish me luck. Will report back to you nerds.

Reading history books is a different kind of comfy that I don't get even from lotr kind of comfy fiction

>>21345089
don't ruin a comfy thread you dick

>>21346610
He doesn’t realise how idiosyncratic labour historians are. I mean Perry Anderson and EP Thompson would have murdered each other in a social crisis. Instead their argument was about the extent of cultural agency in historiography. You can trust humanities academics about what happened in the past: our concrete politics are so obscure that you’ve not actually heard of them.

Also if you can’t read “party line” you shouldn’t be reading history. Go read something easy like conti or German idealism or mayahana.

>>21346610
I don't give a fuck. This was a rare thread where there was a degree of civility. Are you on your period?
Shut the fuck up cancer.

History isn't what happened.. History is what a historian told you happened.

>>21337519

>>21346736
That must be a comfy sweater

>>21346953
Coat. It is very comfy.

You do keep a copy of The Power Broker on your bookshelf for Zoom calls, right?

Does anybody have recommendations for history books on the Victorian Era in England? Think something like Dreams of El Dorado but with Victorian England instead of the American West.

>>21339733
heard this one was a bit orientalist, someone compared the way he commented on roman military victories to arab ones and the stark difference in tone that made me raise a couple eyebrows.
is that true, and have you read any other works about the early islamic expansion to compare?

>>21337519
What do you think historians look like? My department is fairly handsome.

>>21341069

>>21347271
My comment was based on Anglo standards. When I think of Anglo historians I think of reserved old men like say Christopher Tyerman and not Dan Jones who looks like a member of Coldplay. Of course, one of those writes for a popular audience and the other does not.

>>21347263
Not him
>and have you read any other works about the early islamic expansion to compare?
The main historians on the period are Walter Kaegi, John Haldon and James Howard-Johnston. I have read 'In the Shadow of the Sword' but it's been a long while so I don't quite remember exactly what he said, but it's mostly understood to be a very hard fought series of campaigns that took decades to actually put an end to Roman attempts of victory.

>>21336978
Seconded, the bibliography at the end would shame even the most serious historian. Really well researched.

>>21346692
>Earth is flat bro

Any good book about the Air campaign in the Korea War from both sides? Already read books like Ghost Flames Charles J. Hanley about the Korean War.

This is esoteric, but I had a blast reading Where They Ain't. The title deceived me into thinking it would just be a history of the 19th century Baltimore Orioles club and their influence on baseball strategies, but it delves deeper much deeper into the various machinations of the contemporary baseball industry and really the contemporary society of America as a whole. Some parts exemplifying this include opinions on the 1896 presidential election by people of various classes, and the incorporation of Brooklyn into the City of New York at the end of the 19th century.

>>21347258
Read High Minds by Simon Heffer. It covers history up to 1880, so the most pure and distilled years of Victoria’s reign. He has two large sequels about English history up to 1918 too

>>21346692
>History is what a historian told you happened.
If you're retarded enough to take claims at face value and not question them through your own understanding and perspective (which is why reading a lot of history books on a topic is important). It's also why brainlets like >>21345089 are in the wrong. If you cant differentiate a bogus claim, from a well supported claim w/out some intermediary like a journal review vetting it for you - You've got much larger problems desu.

>>21349062
>written by a New York Jew
Yeah no thanks.

>>21323023
Great thread, one of the best in recent memory. Turns out we do like history.

For those who have read Braudel and are looking for that next level, closer to questions of historiography, Carlo Ginzburg cannot be missed.

>>21349376
If you can’t use journal reviews as the disciplines gate keepers and have to publish review articles to defend the historiography continuously then you’re dramatically over funded or got a PQ17 situation.

>I don’t know what PQ17 is or why it’s important to defending the discipline of history

The American doctoral programme is dying.

Just got The Rise and Fall of the British Empire by Lawrence James. Anyone here read it before?

>>21349553
I'm not a massive history buff so i've never heard of Ginzburg before but that looks fascinating!

>>21323023
>He hasn't read the premiere study of post-Keynes economic history

This is the shit.

>>21350668
>>>21349553 (You)
>I'm not a massive history buff so i've never heard of Ginzburg before but that looks fascinating!
Threads and Traces is another really good one by him to be aware of!

>>21350738
thank you

Other than the LBJ series previously mentioned, what are the best Presidential bios?

>>21329795
What's great about these books is Durant. I don't care how outdated or accurate they are, the bro knows how to write. And maybe his wife too idk

>>21323023
What's a classic history book that talks about America with the most amount of insight that's NOT written by an outsider?

>>21351574
Would also prefer no coastal dweebs either. Author must either be from the Midwest or South and preferably not Jewish

what a great thread. Could anyone recommend me some good books on the subject of sacrifices throughout human history and civilizations .

>>21351585
>>>21351574
>Would also prefer no coastal dweebs either. Author must either be from the Midwest or South and preferably not Jewish
Wrote a whole response about how you should check out Sheldon Wolin. Got to the end of writing it and realized he's not what you want, not at all.

What you want is Alfred Chandler. Criminally underappreciated. I bring him up because you mentioned "classic history book that talks about America with the most insight". America is such a big topic, but Chandler gets really close to insights that might encompass the spirit of the place. Sheldon Wolin too, but trust me you don't want him.

Here's a Wolin gem to tide you over though:
I attempt to show that “constitutional democracy” is not a seamless web of two complementary notions but an ideological construction designed not to realize democracy but to reconstitute it and, as a consequence, repress it. (Wolin, 79)

Check out all of Chandler though, he's fucking kino

>>21339219
>Also wtf why does the Renaissance get a whole book but not the crusades or insert other medieval event
Because it's the Story of Civilization, not the story of europe's top 10 most retarded bum fights

>>21323023
I'm maybe a third of the way through that same book, like reading it very slowly sort of between other books, and I'm actually finding it tough to get through. It has what feels like an extremely stilted writing style where you get way too much detail and explanation on some things and not enough with others, and none of it scans with the kind of relative effortlessness I get when I consider non fiction at this sort of complexity genuinely well written.

Like its good in that I am learning about this stuff, but I feel like there must have been some smoother book on the same topic I could have picked up instead whereas now I'm all sunk cost in this one. I do like the details in there about Cortez' whole expedition being so rushed, haphazard, constantly about to fall apart and pseudo illegal its has the same feel as someone trying to steal and sell a bunch of catalytic converters without getting caught by the police.

>>21351863
May as well read Coase (1937) The nature of the firm while you're at it if you're viewing the nomenklatura (Ehrenreich Professional / Managerial class) as the fundamental of the United States.

Please note that Coase is a primary source of industrial sociology, and that Ehrenreich is a work of social theory written by a historian without being an adequate history in itself.

Comfy as all fuck :3

Chart posting

>>21353397
There's some pretty shit works in areas I work in there. Pretty fucking shit.

Why isn't Joseph Abbeel's memoire translated? It's like one of 2 foot soldiers account of Napoleon's war yet I can only find it in frog.
Messed up.

>>21353495
You're welcome to make some improvements/suggestions, I think it's an old chart with not really any alternatives.

Can anybody recommend some good first hand explorer's accounts? Specifically about the pacific and japan, but others are welcome too. I loved Marco Polo's Travels (even though it's not ACKSHUALLY a first hand account, yeah yeah) and I'd love to read some more.

>>21352137
>>>21351863 (You)
>May as well read Coase (1937) The nature of the firm while you're at it if you're viewing the nomenklatura (Ehrenreich Professional / Managerial class) as the fundamental of the United States.
Hell yeah, thanks for reading between the lines on my post that's exactly what I was saying lol. I will check out Coase.

For anybody who reads Chandler and related biz history things, that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down. Gary Herrigel, prof at UChicago is a really interesting contemporary exponent (quite removed from Chandler at this point to be sure) - really cool books. Check out pic attached and then he has another one focused on post WWII industry in Japan, USA, and Germany called Manufacturing Possibilities (2010)

>>21353603
Andrle for soviet working class studies. Past & Present for the UK. International Review of Social History for the world.

Interesting read on one of the many ww2 era nationalists

>>21327514
Thanks friend

There's something about how comfy reading history is that's just uncanny

Any good book suggestion about Vikings generell and about the Viking exploration of Greenland/North America?

The only book I found where some on Amazon like Northmen: The Viking Saga 793-1241 from John Haywood and Children of Ash and Elm: A History of the Vikings from Neil Price. But Idk, you guys have probably something better

>>21354042
Looks interesting, what's the thesis? Degenerative minor fascisms as self-mythologising via defeat?

>>21355039
Primary sources:
>The Vinland Sagas (North American exploration by Leif Eiriksson)
>Egil's Saga
> King Harald's Saga
> The Sagas of the Volsungs/Ragnar Lothbrok

Great thread
>>21354996
I don't understand why /lit/ tends to hate history threads

>>21356396
>I don't understand why /lit/ tends to hate history threads
They're full of:
a) Wanker nationalists
b) People giving handjobs to journalists who got an editor's child sex material and forced them to publish their book about hobbyhorse
c) People who don't read
d) People who read an american fabulist and his wife's stories about how cool america was before it even existed (subset of a)
e) People who reject the Rankean consensus of historiography because they want history to mean specific moral things like a
f) People who reject the Rankean consensus of historiography because they want a Geist that has telos
g) People who don't understand monograph / chapter / article and primary source compilation as the basic "modes" of presentation of historiography
h) People who don't know what an archive is
i) People who detest the concept of historiography because its just stories isn't it
j) a, only offensively mind wormed about some psychotic fixation (Nazism or Baptism)

>>21356495
>it's the telos fag shitting up my thread with nihilism again
Find Jesus please.

>>21357219
Jesus has no place in historiography.

>>21355570
ty

>>21357221
I choose to view and analyze history through a christian worldview as did the saner historians desu. All things lead to and from Jesus Christ, cretin.

Shelby Foote

>>21323035
i don't know but definitely try to avoid NY Times bestsellers at all costs

This one is quite good.

>>21353397
I am reading the Glorious Cause right now and it is a slog. The guy can't write for shit

This book explains a lot of things about history that don't really make sense otherwise.
>inb4 muh /x/
I don't subscribe to authoritarian views of knowledge, a thing is true or it is not. The author proves 90% of the claims that he makes.

>>21359018
forgot pic

>>21358491
>Shelby Foote
I love this man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5Ma9_9H1w

>>21350344
>The Rise and Fall of the British Empire by Lawrence James
>Anyone here read it before?
It's very good, he writes with a traditional stately tone that I appreciate.

>>21358101
You can choose what you like, but your choices have consequences.
>as did the saner historians
No, see Ranke. The Christian mission in historiography is to treat the documents with man's reason, not with God's. You aren't a saint and God isn't making a revelation through the taxation reconciliation documents for County Claire 1720-1760.
>All things lead to and from Jesus Christ, cretin.
Not demonstrated my mans reason, nor the documentary evidence. You take your eisegesis and telos away and masturbate in the corner. Historians don't do theology, take your ejaculations away from here.

>>21359847
>Niall
You may as well fellate the ancien regime in Holland now.

I'm set to read this book

>>21359023
Sounds neat. You know this one?

>>21360339
I don't know it but I'll definitely check it out now, thanks bro!

>>21331084
Good writer.

>>21360339
How am I supposed to take this seriously when "archaeology" is spelled wrong? I'm really interested in this subject but so much of it is obviously woo.

Bump, give me more shit about Atlantis and prehistoric civilizations please.

>>21351863
Aight, just saw this, will look it up

>>21360050
I dunno about you but I found Ranke very dry and boring, was hoping for some more intellectual vigor

>>21355039
>Children of Ash and Elm: A History of the Vikings from Neil Price
I've read it. From what I know it is the new Penguin standard history of it and will be for a while. It's mostly pretty good, there is like one argument he makes which is pretty unconvincing as to gender identity but it's like a few paragraphs so not worth sperging out about when the entire thing is 500 pages.

>>21361045
Oof... Brainlet take. Both spellings are correct in the US.

this thread lacks primary sources

>>21323023
I love me some Bruce Catton. That is all.

>>21323023
Herodotus and Herodotus only desu

>>21323023
Any good recs on Ancient Greece?

>>21343382

This is next on my list. Can't wait.

>>21323023
Say I was going to teach a world history overview class for a high school and I had the freedom to pick any book (or short 4 books) as my textbook... What should I choose?

>>21362621
I had no idea.

>>21337675
>>21337724

I’m currently half way through The Devil’s Chessbord and holy fuck is it good. I always knew the CIA was whack and that we’ve all been psyop’ed since forever - hanging around on 4chan will earn you your tinfoil hat. But this Allen Dulles character is just something else. Totally fascinating.
Highly recommend. Even though the author is a self-proclaimed ‘progressive’, I think he’s an old school 80/90’s one so almost ring wing now.
It makes me wonder: if TikTok is a Chinese made psyop, then the CIA had to be involved in making Facebook or Twitter or Reddit etc. Anyone know of some breadcrumbs ?

>>21364898
Forgot pic related.

>>21364898
>>21365024
What are some other books you enjoy? I am thinking about reading Devils Chessboard in January

>>21365024
The glowing review from The Daily Beast makes me think this is pinko trash.

>>21363729
That's a very broad request. Which era are you interested in?

hello
is pic related any good?

I like reading books about first hand accounts in uncharted territories or wars

so far I've read :

arabian sands
chronicles of the narvaez expedition
diary of a napoleonic foot soldier
the anabasis of cyrus
the conquest of new spain (bernal diaz)
storm of steel

and I'm currently reading "a walk accross africa", which is about the nile expedition

what other books would you guys recommend me? Thanks