/lit/ - Literature

>>21322427
>To get out of this " constant turmoil " , the West must not aspire to preserve its destructive way of thinking in line with a form of xenophobia. On the contrary, Western civilization must struggle against its own secular imperialism and come to terms with the Other. Having reached this critical point, the West must be revitalized: its “ orientalization ” should be encouraged . For a René Guénon attached to " interreligious dialogue " , Western civilization has cut itself off from everything that once united it with its sisters by adopting modernity. Guénon therefore appeals directly to the aid of Western civilization from the East. Authentic peoples would possess the regenerating virtues which the West would need to regain contact with a religious sentiment indispensable to the preservation of the world.
>The observations formulated by Guénon in The Crisis of the Modern World therefore all point towards a well-defined solution: that of the spiritual revitalization of Western civilization by the introduction of the Orient into its territory. In this sense, there is a very clear intellectual connection between a surprisingly xenophile traditionalist thought and multiculturalism as a project for the total renovation of the West.
>If the West is in crisis, it is because it is a deeply rationalist, materialist and individualist civilization. The West would have become an isolated civilization at the same time as a conqueror, and would not show any spiritual depth since its entry into modernity. To resuscitate, the West should be inspired by the East. Quebec should definitively abandon all forms of secularism and France should found a Sixth Republic in harmony with religious communitarianism. Because to be reborn from the ashes, you must first DIE.

>>21322427
>>21322436
The "great replacement" will lead to the wests spiritual regeneration, and tbis is good, and foreshadowed by Guénon,
Do /lit/ Guénon shills agree with this analysis?
Is multiculturalism, and demographic "orientalization," a good thing we should encourage and be happy about?

>>21322443
C'est fini

>>21322427
>look mom I made the same thread again
You can go back now.

Based. But the writer of this particular text is being a total faggot by insinuating Guenon was advocating for racial multiculturalism. Instead, he means the destruction of the West's modern faggotry and its regeneration from a traditional spirit from the east, because as he says tradition can only grow from tradition.( and the west entirely lacks it.)
Guenon was certainly not racist, and I doubt he would particularly care about racial pluralism in the west, but that's not necessary for the rejuvenation of the west.

>>21322453
>C'est fini
So you understand then? The only solution for you is to hand over your sisters to muslims or hindus, to orientalize what will be left of your family, its the only way to survive modernity even in seed form, what is a transformation of physical matter anyway when compared to permanent spiritual regeneration, diversification of western "civilization" is the only way to end the kali yuga, no "westerner" will be left untouched by this and they know deep down that it is a justified karmic reprisal for the sins of their materialistic and decadent ancestors, who asserted themselves imperialistically and materialistically, possesed by demonic forces, xenophillia is the only way out of this situation for you. If that is too hard for you to stomach then you have to outgrow the eastern phantasm and reject all established oriental traditions, becoming a promethean lord of the kali yuga and truly conquer and dominate all who oppose you, and revivify western civilisation whilst you are at it, establishing a true global imperium.
If you cannot do that then you will simply have to DIE and be reborn in a new and diversified form, forever a slave.

>>21322443

Might have been applicable over a hundred years ago. Today? Whatever remains of the "East" is calcified remnants, corrupted filth of Western cargo cultism and the terrible New Age feedback it has created (a situation that could perhaps be fixed with the liberal use of napalm and thermobarics). The damage has been done and concluded. No way left out of this now. :)

>>21322511
^correction
Asserted thrmselves imperialistically and [Materialistically -> Millitaristically]

>>21322506
I think you are in denial, guenon denied even the existence of race, there was no such thing for him, and he considered it some arbitrary and mutable thing, in his writings about the east absorbing the west interracialism was simply implicit, guenon himself had no problems himself directly furthering the cause by fertilizing his own progeny with the eastern egg of spiritual regrowth and rebirth.

the fact that this clown is talking in terms of masses means he hasn't really read Guenon
the "reunion" of the west and east is a matter of concern for an intellectual elite, it's certainly utterly useless to flood the west with pariahs/untouchables of the east, in the same way as, ironically, the east's westernization was certainly not led by mass migration of western peasants

>>21322526
>guenon denied even the existence of race
stopped reading there, you haven't read guenon

>>21322511
holy meds

>>21322443
>and tbis is good,
he says it's a catastrophe, sandnigger-kun

>>21322511
perhaps there is another path...

>>21322515
The tragic and futile "ethnic revolts" guenon referred to which may arise in the case of the west being absorbed by the east, were simply european mens desperate efforts to stop their women seeking the true virility of the east. When guenon talked about the insignificance of the west, he no doubt also debased their racial stock, which is like a branch or twig a deformed growth extending from the eastern trunk which can be "cut off" and be left to a regrowth. The west and its people have no permanence, their own natures, will inevitably push them towards destruction and extinction whether this be self-willed or by some external force namely the easts assimilation of them, is only a matter of semantics.

>>21322511
This is bullshit. Everyone is going to die, end of Kali Yuga everyone will be dead or degenerated to the level of apes. The easterners are being ruined by moving to the west. They are not fixing the west, the west is breaking them. It's over because the Kali Yuga is unstoppable. None of these outlandish theories are true, revalations is true. The Islamic apocalypse is true. Jesus is coming back and He will cut down the atheists by the millions, and slaughter those thieves who dared to call themselves kings. There is no escape. We are all going to die. Some of us will be reborn. You just have to live as God ordered to ensure you come back to re-establish Satya Yuga. No man can reverse the chain of events that are going to unfold. Jesus is the only one who can and will end this Yuga.

>>21322551
completely refuted by Evola

>>21322427
There is no such thing as modernity or tradition.

look at this swarthy faggot seething and envying the WHITE MAN

you will never be white, ahmed

>>21322562
Do you have a problem with the terms used, are they not apt, or do they as words refer to some meaning which completely evades your comprehension, in that case we can only see in your reply a coping mechanism or a learned ignorance, otherwise perhaps it is some deficiency related to your defective western constitution.
>>21322560
This is not the case, if it were you would once and for all substantiate this with some sort of evidence or proof, whereabouts did evola objectively refute anything? As far as I understand evola did not even acknowledge such a thing, he was too lost in magical idealism.
>>21322563
I may never be white, but your descendents if you havent already been sterilized by the western elites chemical castration agenda against their own populations, will be darker not be white.

>>21322580
>I may never be white
stopped reading there

idgaf, kys

>>21322557
>This is bullshit. Everyone is going to die, end of Kali Yuga everyone will be dead or degenerated to the level of apes. The easterners are being ruined by moving to the west.
Unfortunately the heart and core of the eastern civilisations is beating steadily and at an imperturbable rythym, your heart though will be racing as you in your life experience the total annihilation/positive transformation of your ephemeral "white western" civilisation.
You are a confused ape yourself, and you have already been spiritually conquered in the realm of ideas, look at you syncretizing the eastern traditional theory of cycles with degenerate western mythology, sure there may be correspondances but where they exist it is only a case of a fertilization by the eastern intellect, or otherwise an impression, you scrape together some parts and in your pride you declare yourself to have comprehended something it is truly pitiable, unfortunately reality is sustained without even your consent.

>>21322526
Another retard

>NOOOOOOOOO YOU HAVE TO LET US ABSORB YOUR CIVILIZATION!!!
lol
lmao even

>>21322595
^never read Guenon.
You are the one creating an illusory schizophrenic distinction between east and west in a realm where there is only truth. The apocalypse is going to be worldwide, and it won't matter whether you are in Hong Kong or Dublin, you are going to be part of it. The truth is revealed in different forms. It does not all come from the east. Jesus Christ and Christianity are not mythology, they are as valid as any eastern tradition, and to assert otherwise is absurd. The west is not going to be "revitalised". The east is going to degrade, and it is degrading. look at India in 1900, then look at it today. Same for china. Soon the whole world will be nothing but a cesspool of godless filth. You do not understand how things work. There must be a near total destruction of all tradition and truth before the end of the Yuga. Read the predictions about the Kali Yuga and what the world will be like. Read them and tell me that some magical paki tidal wave will make all the problems go away. The east is doomed. The west is doomed. the world is doomed. Until the new Yuga. Simple as that.

>>21322595
seems to me that a crisis necesarily breeds revolt and death; invasions happened and only under pressure have fecund ideas have come as breathing life back: the only thing that happens is that whatever come, it will happen so drastically that nothing that has ever happened even comes close; it's an entire civilzation on the steps of death: what comes next are fragmentations

>>21322617
It is amazing that the Kali Yuga predictions were made in India, and refer to India, and they refer to a state of affairs even worse than what we have today in the west. And this is in India. The supposed heartland of tradition. and you think that easterners are somehow going to avoid all this, and just come over to the west like a holy army and fix everything. Wake the fuck up. The pervading force in the world today is decay, and it will remain this way right up until Jesus returns. Funny how Hindu, Muslim, and Christian sources all accept the truth of the end of the world, but a random nigga on 4chan knows better and has a secret paki invasion theory that trumps them all.

>>21322545

Oh ya think ? ;)

>>21322551

I am very much amused by this assumption, srsly. As it would assume that the cancerous rot originating in the West hadn't already entirely consumed whatever remnants of tradition had once been still carried by the "East" (which I even refuse to see as a single entity here but ok, for discussion's sake let us assume so). This ofc also begs the question why whatever remnants there had been could even endure for that brief moment in time longer than it did over here ... I'd propose that this was in fact due to the inherently more "passive" nature of these Eastern clades of humanity (I will here spare you my evaluation of said clades within the bigger picture of things), allowing for a "conserving inertia" regarding certain aspects of the tradition. Ofc, as recent times have shown, a brittle and, as I said, calcified form of preservation, sure valuable for those of our contemporaries still aware of the inherent worth of such fragments, nevertheless and ultimately having been incapable of preventing the relentless final onslaught of modernity, failing to resist or adapt due to the very nature of the inertia, the Trägheit I have mentioned just above.
Nothing to be gained from this debris anymore and the chances of spontaneous (re)emergence from such a substratum are slim to say at least, no matter how much of a fool's errand many these days do appear to make of such an endeavour. Eh, as I like to say, let them sleep who do not know ... :)

>>21322617

>The apocalypse is going to be worldwide

Bingo! All things must end. :}~<

>>21322443
Of course, they do. Guenon is a snake oil salesman and obvious orientaphile. They take his opium-fueled ramblings as gospel and ignore the logical contradictions and historical context of his nonsense that expose him.

>>21322527
Not the full story, the reunion of the intellectual elite was one plan, but if that failed then there would have to be a total assumption of the west masses and whatever remained of their degenerated pseudo-intellectual "elite." We are now past the point of no return, "white genocide" should be encouraged by all traditionalists, sure it may be sad in the sort term, but it is simply an inevitable outcome, the west is a rogue, decadent and degenerate civilization.

>>21322427
If there's any desire for regeneration motivating "multiculturalism", I would argue that it's an attempt for Westerners to feel like they're morally regenerating themselves (in a Christian sense) after Nazism and/or colonialism. Contemporary degeneracy is largely due to a radicalization of Christian ethics. The idea that Islam is going to spiritually regenerate the West is a joke. Muslims just want gibmedats from European governments.

>>21322805

>The idea that Islam is going to spiritually regenerate the West is a joke.

Quite. Although it'll sure act as a very suitable Brandbeschleuniger to conclude the final necessary act ... :D

Every "initiation" is going back far enough from someone who had no master. So if the problem for our horse-faced islamist is that westoids have no unbroken tradition, that just means you have to reboot it. Go meditate until you meet Orpheus or Buddha (Mahayana) or whoever and then start to believe in your empowerment.

>>21322842
Please, for the love of all things holy read
Just read nigga
Just READ
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD

>>21323000
If a lineage-holder is required it implies he received "it" from someone else which is why he is able to transmit "it" to you. You are mistaken if you have placed faith in this game of telephone rather than in the copper wires themselves. Why don't you read something other than English translations of polemical French commentaries on eastern religious texts?

>>21322427
Imagine taking OP seriously, this is clearly a bait thread.

>>21323019
Guenon addresses the exact point your retarded post tries to make. Maybe you're not retarded, but just read sometimes at some point at all and you'll sound 4-6x smarter minimum.
Not saying Guenon was right about everything, I've read a couple things that made me double take, but that's not one of them.

>>21323080
Just post what he said. I'm not the other guy, but I read Guenon and I don't remember where he addressed why initiation cannot restart again. Maybe because I haven't read the specific books on initiation though.

>>21323080
>you're wrong because he's right
>uhhh he's not always right but he was right about that
>go look it up I don't remember why I agree with it
fuck off you literal mouth breather

>>21323291
So you are retarded after all

>>21322427
Guénon would Europe to become Muslim rather than importing Muslim immigrants

>>21323389
>take issue with one of the tenets of guenonfagging
>a guenonfag informs you that guenon disagrees with you and does not address the point raised any further beyond name-calling
you guys are npcs if you think only the founders of religions are allowed to have mystical experience as a form of knowledge and that everyone else can only agree and amplify with what they're told. If guru z learned it from guru y who learned it from guru x [...] who learned it from a disciple of ur-guru (who was a magical wizard), you're just doing fideism with extra steps. Why is the ur-guru special? He had no guru to teach him. He wasn't initiated. Therefore he should be considered inauthethic and counter-traditional. How do you square the fact that all traditions are started by subversives and heretics? Or are you, as I suspect, a teenage neo-nazi who has adopted a far-right version of fashionable nonsense?

>>21323461
There is no conversion of a society to a foreign religion without importing some number of foreigners. After all, none of the locals are masters of the sacred language, its religious rites, and metaphysical doctrines in numbers sufficient to affect the widespread conversion of their peers.

>>21323474
>all traditions are started by subversives and heretics
that's intriguing, tell me more

>>21323474
Initiation is initiation into metaphysical truth, but this does not impart Tradition. Guenon accepted tradition, descended from the primordial, in the form of Islam.
>How do you square the fact that all traditions are started by subversives and heretics?
I should have known this was bait.

>>21323505
>>21323524
Wasn't Mo' promoting a religion which rejected nearly all of the culture around him? I know they kept the meteor worship because that's extremely based, but beyond that he proclaimed a doctrine meant to oppose both earlier Abrahamism AND the "pagan" religions. And if we are to retconn this as him being the standard bearer of "primordial truth," why was it that no one in his society was able to instruct him in it? I am less knowledgeable on Islam in particular, but isn't the story that an archangel dictated the verses of the Koran to him, or something like that? Kind of an odd way to be initiated don't you think? No guru. No master. Just mystical experience. But are we supposed to believe this experience is impossible and we can only be initiated by a master, a master whose authority to do so is predicated on a chain of lineage holders going back to the founder, the founder who had no master on this earth and espoused teachings in opposition to the spiritual authorities of his day?

>>21323554
I think I see where you mixed things up. You may not be retarded after all.
What you consider "subversives and heretics" ARE actually subversives and heretics- to the "society" losing its tradition. Tradition can take an infinite amount of forms, though still being true to Universal Truth. The "heretics" guide their societies towards a new form of tradition, while still maintaining the "spirit" contained within it. They don't delete the culture and society they are a part of, they merely modify it to become closer to Truth and Tradition.
Imagine the case with Jesus and the Pharisees. The Pharisees and Judaeans were losing their spirit of tradition to materialism and legalism, and Jesus, the "heretic" fought against that and rejuvenated it. The Tradition took on a new form, though not completely upending the old, and not creating something artificial. Everything was based on the existing tradition.

Just to mention, I obviously don't agree with everything an author has ever said and ever believed just because I like one of the concepts they introduce. That's literal NPC level thinking, and I suppose you made that assumption because (being around the average /lit poster) its an easy thing to assume.

>>21323622
>the "heretic" fought against that and rejuvenated it. The Tradition took on a new form, though not completely upending the old
Yes that's what happens when a heretic is successful. So it was necessary to dispense with the Pharisees or with the Arabian moon priests or whatever priestly authority capable of conferring initiation existed, because the initiation itself was initiation into something "wrong," yes? But the heretic, who for all intents and purposes had self-initiated, would have been in the wrong for opposing the spiritual authorities if they had been correct. Therefore, initiation in and of itself is neutral at best, and if the true guarantor of validity is outside of initiation, it must be possible to access it, otherwise there would be no one capable of having ever established a lineage, whether deteriorated over time or not, and also no one capable of assessing whether such deterioration had happened. I would not deny these are exceptional persons, these evaluators if you will, but to categorically declare them impossible only to affirm them in the same breath to me seems nonsensical.

>>21323668
What do you mean by initiation? I want to make sure we are not having a semantic misunderstanding.

>>21323677
I thought it was quite clear from the discussion that (1) horse face thinks initiation is died out in the west and (2) I think it must be possible to rekindle it if (3) by initiation we are thinking primarily of the hallmark of esoterical religious tradition wherein a master instructs disciples from generation to generation in how to interpret scripture on a deeper or more philosophical level as is found in various extant and defunct forms of broader religions, e.g. Sufism, Saivism, Vajrayana, Orphism/Neoplatonism, all of which involve some variety of a founder having had his own mystical experience

This argument doesn't make sense because the Muslims in the West become Westernized, and indeed often come to the West solely for material reasons. They come so they can live off of welfare and fuck white women. We are not becoming Islamized, it is the opposite, the Muslims are coming here and becoming more decadent and materialist. This is especially true for the children of immigrants, who take Islam nowhere near as seriously as their parents do. They will go out and drink and party and listen to music. Forbidden in Islam.

Guenon's biggest flaw is how much he spurns the Greeks and the West in comparison to the East. The West cannot exist without Westerners, it is that simple.

>>21323697
>the children of immigrants
can't be bothered to look it up but there's research suggesting they become more radicalized than their parents due to a combination of push and pull factors especially in Europe, so while you do have high rates of apostasy you'll also get high rates of fundamentalism/extremism. The middle of the road is selected against. Make of that what you will

>>21323694
Ah. In that case, it would be useful to know that "initiation" isn't what makes a society "traditional" and one doesn't really have to be "traditional" to influence society in a way that causes it to become "more traditional."
He certainly does think initiation died out in the west. But the problem that I thought was the topic was Tradition itself. Tradition in the West is dead, and no amount of initiation can fix that. The branch is just dead. There is nothing traditional in the West, only hyperreal imitations of "traditional practices."
Initiation into intuition of the Universal Truth is not the issue here, but the fact that Westerners have nothing left to build or grow their tradition from. They can merely imitate the lost traditions of their ancestors; something entirely empty and artificial. The method of regaining that, even for the "uninitiated" is to influence and grow from already existing tradition. Again, this is because tradition cannot be "created."

>>21323721
>Westerners have nothing left to build or grow their tradition from
This sort of attitude betrays a modern attitude of thinking anyway, you are considering the West as a mass of determinate persons in need of being spiritually administered to which is never the starting point of any kind of esoteric religious tradition, with its emphasis on lineage from master to disciple. If the tradition of the West, to use your vocabulary, is dead, then the West is basically an empty space. It is therefore an environment which will hinder the least capable because there are no extant structures for them to climb up on, but offer unprecedented opportunity to the capable seeker, because that is the nature of a flattened space. There is no way to disguise yourself because all masks are seen through. You will have to sink or swim.

>>21323705
Shut up you fat American retard. "Studies" are fucking horseshit and prove fucking nothing. "No amount of facts can prove a theory as true" - the big man from France himself said that.

>>21323888
Riddle me this snail slurper—why did all those second-gen French, English, German Muslims go to Syria in the 2010's?

>>21324056
I would have to see their birth charts to answer that question.