/lit/ - Literature

>>21275493
I love it so much. I'm tempted on getting a proper copy.
Jung could've written some of the best works in the last 100 years if he wanted to.

>>21275506
I read this after a bad trip on shrooms and it literally felt like it was speaking to me during the dialogue parts. I haven't read it since.

>>21275493
Impressive knowledge of latin paleography from Jung

>>21275493
trimethylated generationwide hexamerous foresense

Italianly

I was looking up Jung's colleague and something struck me...

Have you noticed how many German/Austrian Women have this look? It's very Germanic.

>>21275493
has anyone actually read the whole book? Is there anything to gain from reading this book?
Seems like you'd only get a more profound knowledge of Jung as a person, but nothing else.

read Catafalque by Peter Kingsley.

>>21275493
How?

>>21275493
how?

>>21275506
Fpbp

>>21276700
>has anyone actually read the whole book? Is there anything to gain from reading this book?
Yes and no. Keep in mind I'm a midwit.
It got me to attempt to consider what are the underlying causes for the thoughts and feelings I have and to really try and delve further and further into the depths of my "self" in order to rebuild myself into a better person that takes my weaknesses and turns them into strengths.
I attempt to ask questions to my subconscious when I lucid dream, though this has limited success.
Jung starts the book by saying this was his method and his method doesn't and likely shouldn't be used by others and each of us have to develop on our own he also said that it's incredibly challenging and dangerous.

>>21276700
It's an example of how to realise your true self.
It was never meant to be published and certainly isn't some self-help book. But it shows a way forward for those on the same quest.

>>21275506
The paintings are unironically one of the best reasons to buy a copy.

>>21278875
Jung actually wanted to publish it and it was a topic of discussion between him and his colleagues, but he decided he'd only let it get published after he was dead.

>>21278875
I disagree with this totally. It is a kind of examining of Jung which is interesting, but every reference of the Bible he include (Most of it from the pseudopigripha for what its worht) are totally misconstrued. For example, he mentions that the water represents a womanly, life giving archetype and then proceeds to use this interpretation to interpret Jesus walking on water as him being connect to life and womanhood. This is entirely wrong, the Bible has its own list of archetypes and water/sea is the archetype of chaos. Leviathen lives there (Job 41), The sea is chaotic and God makes land as a stable structured place for human life in Genesis 1 (notice it says right after God created the heavens and the Earth the Earth was with form and void "Darkness was upon the face of the deep BUT the spirit of God hovered over the waters" This says that God pulled order out of Chaos as is common with most creation myths), It also promises in revelation that there will be no more sea (Rev. 21:1) why would that be a good promise? this is at the end of the book which is full of good promises to believers, yet it adds this little bit as if we would say "Horaay no more sea!" but we dont, that is unless the sea repersents chaos as it has the entire rest of the book- which it does. Jung totally missed this point and every other archetype in the Bible. He is an interesting dude and hits on some good points but his biblical hermeneutics is awful. He did recoomend the book She which i read after and was great. I recommend Jung's book, but don't expect to change your life after. For that you should fast, read the bible, Choose to believe it and pray.

>>21275493
Which edition I get?

>>21279719
Readers to read
original to show off & get the schizo mindset

>>21275891
You mean glasses and a bob haircut? Yes, it's German as fuck. They all have fat arses too.

>>21275493
You were already a schizo you just wanted an excuse

>>21280099
No the face. The teeth. Kind of Germanic looking you know?

>>21275493
Why? It's completely meaningless.

Things I believe since encountering Jung:

>no such thing as free will and this is the ultimate freedom
>life is a feeling, or an attitude, and understanding is a feeling
>everything is a living being. everything.
>my thoughts are all alive and live on in the outskirts of my conscious mind and even roam into other minds
>monism
>life as illusion
>speaking to beings in my mind and receiving spirit gifts
>sorcery of living; magic is real
>I can see into the future
>I do nothing but watch as my body is moved by mysterious forces, as thought-creatures roam past the mental landscape I must witness or else be trapped within

>>21275493
Impressive knowledge of latin paleography from Jung

>>21282424
Maybe a little. I like my metric more.

>>21279703
>he mentions that the water represents a womanly, life giving archetype
>the Bible has its own list of archetypes and water/sea is the archetype of chaos. Leviathen lives there
These statements are not contradictory. Water represents the unconscious, which in men has a female character. Moreover, all the archetypes have a dual character; especially the Mother, which is by turns a nurturing figure and a suffocating destroyer.
Never forget that the Red Book is an entirely personal mythology, written from the point of view of a male academic.

>>21282466
There is some insight here, but also some real schizo stuff.
In particular, Jung emphasises the importance of imposing your own will on your destiny. You can't just fall back on archetypal influences, because they are contradictory and will ultimately pull you apart.
You need to achieve a synthesis of your conscious and unconscious will, that will satisfy your whole psyche. This is one of the tasks of individuation.

>>21279703
I agree with your point, but like other anons said, the archetypes of femininity and chaos are closely related, so he isn't that wrong.

>>21279703
>For that you should fast, read the bible, Choose to believe it and pray.
Jung would approve of this. He regarded Christianity as a therapeutic system, embedded in the minds of westerners. It was therefore their surest guide through life, provided they were willing to submit to it.
The problem is you can't "choose" to believe anything. You either believe it or you don't. Anything else is a larp.

>>21282466
What else have you read?
I personally don't believe any of that but I find it fascinating.

Love Jung but true schizo is when you can't trust any writer after doing a background check on them (and I don't just mean jews)

>>21279703
Which version of the Bible should I read?

>>21283977
The vulgate.

>>21282466
Is this the most schizo Jung can offer? Meh.

>>21275493
will this book teach me how to integrate my shadow?

>>21279932
Isn't sacred geometry simply numerology for the mathematics-illiterate?

>>21283972
I also read Catafalque by Peter Kingsley which is about Jung and his mystic beliefs and his hidden side and true goals. I've also read a few books on imagination as a distinct realm, which is something Jung believed, as well as Henri Corbin, who was a good friend of Jung's who wrote about what he called the imaginal realm as known in Sufism. Lost Art of Imagination was really good, by Gary Lachmann, as an overview of the imagination as a living place. Peter Kingsley in general is fantastic too. I've also just been reading about magic, alchemy, Hinduism, Carlos Castaneda etc. and it all sort of tied together. Oh, and Gerald Murnane, who I think has similar beliefs, but he writes fiction (very good fiction).

>>21283083
Jung said a lot of shit that contradicted himself. The man was split himself. There was an anecdote of him running around the garden ranting about there being no free will. As for archetypes, though he spent his whole life warning of identifying with them, he acknowledged we all identify with the most dangerous one of all eventually, Anthropos. This is also a man, remember, who began writing his sermon for the dead after his house came alive with literal ghosts commanding him to write it, who slept with a gun under his pillow should it ever become too much, and spent the rest of his life walking in his garden with Philomon, a gnostic with kingfisher wings from the first century who was probably Simon Magus, and who taught him to be a magician. He also said the task of individuation, which almost no one ever achieves, is really deification. To individuate is to become a god. Jung spoke out of both sides of his mouth as he tried to slip the magic pill into this century's mouth in the only way they could swallow it.

>>21275493
What about this red book?

>>21283977
I always recommend NLT to people new to the Bible. But if you want a stricter word for word translation, ESV is my personal choice because it doesn’t adhere strictly to the masoretic text and uses Dead Sea scrolls translations (btw this literially only matters for one verse, deut 32:8)

>>21284901
Only red book that exists

>>21283121
You can chose my friend. Right now chose and fight and search for God, you will find Him.

>>21284708
> Jung spoke out of both sides of his mouth as he tried to slip the magic pill into this century's mouth in the only way they could swallow it.
Well said.

>>21284708
Thank you. I'll check those books out. I would like to imagine more about my imagination if that makes sense.
>Jung spoke out of both sides of his mouth as he tried to slip the magic pill into this century's mouth in the only way they could swallow it.
I think this is why I'm drawn to his works. I'm probably very much in the materialist camp but I can easily tolerate everything he says even if I don't particularly understand or believe it to be correct. Regardless I feel better after reading it.

>>21282466
This is very near schizophrenic thinking, you should be cautious.

>>21278883
They look nice. Similar to Tolkien's drawings for The Hobbit.

>bump

https://youtu.be/udKqfxjj_7Q
Jung at his Bollingen Tower. I want to visit one day.

>>21275493
>I had a dream where my father asked me about marriage psychology and soon after he died
>Synchronicity!
The secret tier nonsense

>>21284901

just as important

>>21284708
I now hope to be getting at least a few of those books for Xmas. Particularly the one called end of humanity which is about the red book

>>21287172
You would say that since you're an archetypal skeptic

>>21287754
Yes, Catafalque is amazing and really opened things up for me. One thing though, I must say, is that Peter Kingsley does have an insufferable writing style that did grate on me in parts. That said it is absolutely worth it and I only mention this in case you find yourself drifting when you read. When I read Reality by Kingsley I found myself feeling frustrated 3/4s through only for him to absolutely blow my mind with the final section.

>>21278318
The subconscious isn’t real

>>21288469
>citation needed

>>21288503
burden of proof is on subconscious tards to probe that something which by definition cannot be observed exists.

>>21282466

You didn't nead to read Jung to realize all that, just the Vedas postulate as much. Never mind the other replies doubting you, I believe you and have encountered highly sensitive spiritual people who have clairvoyance.

Be very careful however of outside influences, new found power can easily be corrupted and manipulated. Limit your time with outside media, internet and frivolous people in general.

>>21288507
I can list multiple citations from plenty of authors but you'll just dismiss them all as frauds(much like the one this thread is about in the first place). So why should I? If you're going to be dismissive of others' arguments, you better have a really, really strong one.

>>21288507
it can't be observed on NIGGERS like you since you're not CONSCIOUS to begin with

>>21284953
Which god do you think I'll find? Horus, Odin, Zeus or Abraxas?

>>21284708
Play the ball, not the man anon.

>>21288518
>appeal to authority
>>21288623
Lol You’re the one saying that 99% of your brain operates subconsciously. Maybe I just have a higher level of consciousness and have brought all parts of my brain into reflection.

>>21288645
nah you're retarded

>>21275493
I would say you're only pretending, which is a much more pathetic form of Mental Illness.

>>21286787
that is peak comfy

>>21282466
You seem very confused, you should stop personifying your thoughts and seek therapy if possible. For the sake of your autonomy you should also start believing in free will

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc07mF67KB4

>>21288803
I disagree, the anon should be escorted to a cliff and allowed to walk off of it if it pleases him.

>>21275493
Kill yourself retard

>>21288954
Free will only works if you believe in it

Bump. Curious how long this thread can last.

>>21275493
jung is kinda vanilla

>>21288803
>your autonomy
>you
Westoids I stg

>>21290568
Not really. You’d need to familiarize yourself with alchemy, hermeticism, platonism, Gnosticism, etc., if you really wanted to read Jung and understand him fully.

>>21275493
I had a meditation session where I saw a vision of these dark children, whose outlines were made of stars, playing games with a large bird/crab type creature who appeared to be teaching them how to play games...

Two days later I was randomly watching a Youtube video about Jung and the Red Book, wondering if I want to read it or not and Jung apparently described something he called the Universal Children as... exactly as I saw them.

Blew me away, gave me chills. It got me thinking Jung was definitely, definitely onto something more than we even give him credit for. That was way too close. I didn't make that vision up by reading Jung, the vision brought me to Jung...

>>21290620
sure, (((pal)))

>>21276700
>>21278318
>Jung starts the book by saying this was his method and his method doesn't and likely shouldn't be used by others and each of us have to develop on our own he also said that it's incredibly challenging and dangerous.

The technique is called "active imagination" as he described it and said if done wrong, will cause schizophernia.

>>21275493
this is what any aspiring writer ought to do to desu: write out their internal life within a journal and then distill it into a novel.
The automatic writing set by the surrealistic hacks will provide a wealth of material for post modernist hacks who hop unto any trandy movement in their timeline like bioluminescent Marxist Leninist Derridist Buterlesque [add any popular 21st ce hack] critique fr fr tho like ngl literally tho

>>21275506
>>21275549
>>21279703
these have convinced me to buy a physical copy

What do I need to know before I read this? The Bible seems like an obvious starting point.

https://youtu.be/QBxQbpr5kME

>>21290630
I've seen the dark children as well in a dream. They were running along a pathway in a large group, playing. There were other people around them but they seemed to ignore them and only play among themselves.

>>21290760
Just Carl Jung in general. Quick run down on the context of the Red Book:
>Jung started having vivid hallucinations and it got so bad that he was afraid he was going schizophrenic
>He ended up journalizing his hallucinations in his Red Book, which is the OP post.
>Alot of his insights came from his experiences during this period in his life.
>He contemplated publishing it but was afraid he would be decried as insane by the people and have his career ruined.

>>21290769
Also the Red Book ended up getting published in 2009, 48 years after his death. Many Post Jungian thinkers never even got to see the fabled Red Book. Only his closest associates ever got to read it, with his permission. Think of people like Alan Watts, Terrence McKenna who never got to read it, yet derived so much from Jung's teachings. Pretty crazy.

>>21290765
I believe you, they seem only intent on playing games and if you're aren't fun and aren't interested in games, they'll ignore you.

>>21290630
>>21290769
>>21290774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy-x7BLlBYg
This video is about the red book and it's how I first learned about it, from scholars who got to read it before it was published widely.

>>21290807
>anglophone interpretation
LMAO

>u can't heav gud wihtout bad1
>lief teach u vvvvvvv imptroan leson d00d
>i LUV LUV LUV lief XDDDDDDDDD
>the mystery is liek.......sooooooOOOOOOooooOOOOooOOOOOOOOOOOO mysetryius111111

>>21288632
Yes.

>>21290630
Imho aion is probably the most horrifying book *if* it's in fact true and it boggles my mind that it's not talked about more considering the evola, traditionalism and anti materialism camps on this board

>>21279703
>the Bible has its own list of archetypes and water/sea is the archetype of chaos
Not always, water is also compared to the Torah/Word of God since this is a traditional rabbinical view

>>21283977
Chumash with Rashi from ArtScroll

>>21290636
I have only been exploring states of mind and writing with them this year, but I believe this to be true. Since I started to explore with active imagination, since I began to learn about the mystical tradition of the imagination as a landscape and how deep that vein goes, and since I started to practice being present in each moment, but particularly when writing, practicing surrendering completely, abstracting to that place of non-thought where it feels like a whole universe is there at my fingertips . . . it has been very rewarding, Now when I write instead of scratching my head, tearing myself apart, criticising myself, I relax, I let go, I wait, I surrender, I let the natural presence rise up, that awareness, that deep curiosity for each moment, that love of everything that seems to take every unclockable flow of time and spin it around, feeling it, tasting it, listening to it, and it is like I am alive with what I am writing, like I tapped into some vast storehouse effortlessly, like I have been taken over by a gentle and infinitely wise spirit that knows everything I ever saw or felt, every book I ever read, every word I ever saw, all my goals and desires, my secret fate, and has more besides, the eternal storehouse of all things, like the Akashic records of pure being, and I surrender and get swept up in a feeling, and I write for hours without effort, without thought, entranced, cared for by something more than myself. Writing finally became a joy, an intimate connection with something more, so much more . . . and when I sit down now each day I am grateful to be doing so, and when I feel myself fall into that eternity I feel so good, so overwhelmingly good and safe and at peace . . . and when I look back at my work afterwards, at the end of the day where I may have spent 3-6 or more hours just typing, dipping in and out of these precious states of mind, I look back at what was written and it is astounding, sometimes, the quality of it, the reach of it, the places it went, the voice it used . . . in my teenage years I lost my connection to God, and I struggled for much of my life with it afterwards. Now, in my thirties, I return to God through a feeling, through typing one word at a time with complete surrender. And I see myself in the universe, in the thrumming field of God, and I feel like I know now, not even that I believe, but that I absolute know that there is a God and that I am a part of Him, and that there is no seperation, no here and there or me and you, and the whole world is a ballroom, a dancehall full of beautiful strangers gliding in a cosmic dance of utter stillness to an orchestra, a booming rhapsody of eternal silence.

>>21291901
It is essential to deep writing, I believe, this feeling, this presence. I see it more and more in various expressions through various writers and poets. I read the complete collection of Octavio Paz recently and was overwhelmed with the beauty of it all, how he spent his life and almost all of his poetry devoted to these still dances, this timeless time . . . Machado too, in recent memory, and his third vision, the third man, the place he stands between reason and imagination where the world comes alive in its own death. And, of course, when you see the fingerprints of the nameless goddess, how often she arrives in the lives and writings of great writers. How many people has she touched? Countless. She visited me herself a few months back when I was more ignorant. When she told me her name it was just another name to me. Only later, in other books I was reading, did I discover her significance, and when I realised how she had presented herself to me before my whole journey to this place had begun I had chills, as though the floor had opened its deep eye and blinked beneath my feet at me. I saw myself standing on the ancient song of the world, forever young, dying and living again in each moment, and the gift of witnessing, and its vast importance. Did you know that the word therapy is derived from the Greek therapeia? In ancient times this meant care for the gods. Not care for the neurotic man, not some venting process, but a sacrifice, an attention to those beyond us to ensure they live on in eternty, in our hearts. When they say a fairy requires belief to live, they speak from the deepest vein of reality.

I rambled on. I write so much lately. It just flows out when I get into the mindset. I try to live my life here, in this place where I write. It is not so easy. I fall in and out. The world has so many tricks to make you believe in movement, in change, in more and less or better and worse, in then and now. Like the breath my foot exhales and inhales its way along the narrow path. But I know the sound of my boot now as it steps upon it, and the feel of my foot as it connects to the ground. And I am drunk with it, filled with it, and my whole life is to return to it, to marry into it and spiral out into forever in that one still road.

I started to read this yesterday. It seems interesting and on topic here, for what I speak of and what you speak of. I am sure there is more. Much more. But never enough. And it will never end.

https://www.erpublishme.com/post/how-presence-can-improve-your-writing

>>21291905
virus dont click

>>21291950
I'm at work, shitposting, thanks for letting me know I'll click it on every pc

>>21291905
>>21291950
Its not a virus. I did post the wrong link though. I meant to post this. The other link I posted is a bit shit. This is more substantial.

https://www.nawe.co.uk/DB/wip-editions/articles/rhythm-as-a-metaphor-for-presence-in-prose-fiction.html

>>21275493
bump

I read Jung and I too turned schizo. I am so far gone that nobody i know will ever understand. I live in a different world. I wish it were all just fantasies but I am living in a more real reality than the average normie. The gulf is too deep. I can never communicate the world that I live in. I am a wildman, a feral untamed schizo stalking the dark woodlands of the collective unconscious. I svffer

>>21290769
Jung deliberately induced those hallucinations through meditative techniques.
You try to make him sound like a schizo, when in fact he was voluntarily undertaking an experiment.

>>21290760
You need to read a whole lot of Jung.
The Red Book isn't for casuals, as this thread so emphatically demostrates.

>>21293559
>You try to make him sound like a schizo, when in fact he was voluntarily undertaking an experiment.
His hallucinations started involuntarily though, which is what I was getting at. He was literally afraid that he was going to become schizophrenic when he first started getting visions and kept a gun in his drawer to shoot himself in the head just in case he became too far gone. Eventually he started writing down his involuntary visions and then later started voluntarily inducing them through active imagination.

>>21294091
Also another interesting thing I just wanna share with the thread. The reason he thought he was going insane wasn't just because of his visions, but because his first vision was of Switzerland being destroyed in a flood of blood. He symbolically interpreted the vision as his psyche (Switzerland) being destroyed by schizophrenia (the flood of blood). He had a few visions with similar symbolism and thought his unconscious was predicting his future demise, but a year later WW1 broke out and, he realized that the visions he was having wasn't predicting his future schizophrenia but actually the future war. So WW1 breaking out was actually a big weight off his shoulders lol.

>>21282466
>I can see into the future

I feel like I am crazy for being able to see moments in the future and they are always tied to moments of fatigue, either a result of physical or mental weakness or bouts of extreme emotion.

I agree with a lot of what you've said here.

>>21294091
And the end product was the Red Book. So, happy endings and all that.

How does one start active imagination. I am able to day dream and visualise /manipulate images and sounds in my head but I've never broken through to what he describes

bump

>>21294215
It will happen if it meant to happen. You cannot force it in your psyche--remember that it happened to him involuntarily, at least initially. If that boundary was broken once involuntarily, then it explains his ability to bring it about through effort. But if the boundary has yet to break, as in your case, you would not even know what to do to try and weaken it--you do not know what the boundary is, since if you did, you would be able to start working on weakening it.

>>21283083
>You need to achieve a synthesis of your conscious and unconscious will, that will satisfy your whole psyche. This is one of the tasks of individuation.
How is this properly achieved?

>>21275493
What's Jungs take on suicide. Been really struggling with it this week.

>>21294919
“The goal of life is the realization of the self. If you kill yourself you abolish that will of the self to become real, but it may arrest your personal development inasmuch it is not explained.”
He has another good quote about wasted life in general
“Every human life contains a potential, if that potential is not fulfilled, then that life was wasted.”
Life’s been getting down on me too, hang in there anon.

>>21275493
Best place to buy a real copy? Also what about the Black Books?

>>21295096
Amazon's probably your best bet even though it's 200+ fucking dollars for the big version with the paintings. The Black Books IIRC were actually the rough drafts of the Red Book, and may contain some things that were left out in it.

>>21279703
Women (water) also represent chaos. I don't see the contradiction.

>>21291113

>>21295148
Great thanks anon will look into it.

>>21279703
Not to mention the Biblical distinction between upper and lower waters. It would be hard for me to believe Jung did not comment on this aspect of theology considering how much he seems to love symbolism, unless it was purposeful neglect.

>>21295157
Water is a Man, as it was in ancient cosmogonies. And water is the letter Mem. So Man is the Memer.

>>21295675
Namma is a goddess

Bæmpé

>tfw the other Jung thread is shit
Time for this to die

>>21275493
This book is about Lucifer

>>21275493
I'll bite, how did it turn you into a schizo?

>>21283977
The NT translation by David Bentley Hart

>>21299642
It showed me nudes of your mother.

>>21280099
this guy knows what's up

>>21294215
Watch a quick youtube video on it. But it takes time to get the hang of it, took me two weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8TU5KAjV-Q

>>21278318
>Keep in mind I'm a midwit
Why do you call yourself that?

>>21282466
Keep going deeper if that's what you really want, schizophrenia isn't a real thing fuck these kikes.

>>21295148
What about the leatherbound reader's edition? It's like 30 dollars, is that not worth it?

Does anyone have a jung reading list chart? I can't find one on the wiki. I assume the starting point would be man and his symbols, and the final book would be the red book

>>21291901
>>21291905
beautiful posts

>>21300901
>>21300901
Reading The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America in combination with The Red Book is making me pretty mental. Goes together with the end of chapter iv "The Desert" really well. Free pdf here if you wanna - http://deliberatedumbingdown.com/ddd/deliberate-dumbing-down/

>>21301544
lol why these two together?
>>21300901
I personally started with his Synchronicity book and am currently slowly going through both the red book and memories, dreams, reflections with no issues, loving every bit of it. Man and his symbols is probably a better starting point tho

>>21301568
“Think diligently about the images that the ancients have left behind. They show the way of what is to come. Look back at the collapse of empires, of growth and death, of the desert and monasteries, they are the images of what is to come.”

The author of this book draws a connection between our schools and civilization collapsing, and it's made super obvious in the 8 part DVD she made that's all up on youtube literally called "Exposing the Global Road to Ruin Through Education". The book itself is basically one huge mountain of undeniable evidence that this this is the case. I hate Prussia and i'm going schizo.

>>21301621
>>21301544
Interesting. I have distrusted schooling for some time. I learned of how the modern system rose from Prussia from Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn; it was in Leftism Revisited, I think. It is an interesting topic. Education by the state as it stands is certainly no innocent thing.

>>21275493
Can someone read my birth chart? Who was I in my past life and who am I going to be in the next one? What are my strengths and weaknesses?

>>21301646
it says you're gay

>>21301669
lol, kind of but not openly.

>>21301621
Why should seeing new connections between things, seeing general developments that repeat themselves in different forms or developments that follow logically from what came before if seen at the right level of abstraction, all this stuff, why does it have to be "schizo"? This is just normal intellectual development, you don't have to be afraid of it or consider it as a disease or even just something not accepted by wider society. It's only schizo when you draw connections where there genuinely just are none, when you cling to ideas in spite of logic and facts just out of some deluded fancy. And even those things you can do, as long as you keep it in mind as an ambiguous uncertainty and not absolute conviction.

I always like this paragraph of plato.stanford on Deleuze:
>It’s important at the start to realize that Deleuze and Guattari do not advocate schizophrenia as a “lifestyle” or as the model for a political program. The schizophrenic, as a clinical entity, is the result of the interruption or the blocking of the process of desiring-production, its having been taken out of nature and society and restricted to the body of an individual where it spins in the void rather than make the connections that constitute reality. Desiring-production does not connect “with” reality, as in escaping a subjective prison to touch the objective, but it makes reality, it is the Real, in a twisting of the Lacanian sense of the term. In Lacan, the real is produced as an illusory and retrojected remainder to a signifying system; for Deleuze and Guattari, the Real is reality itself in its process of self-making. The schizophrenic is a sick person in need of help, but schizophrenia is an avenue into the unconscious, the unconscious not of an individual, but the “transcendental unconscious,” an unconscious that is social, historical, and natural all at once.

Lastly pic related
>Auguste Rodin (1840–1917) The Fallen Angel 1895 The winged figure, held by another naked female, has crashed to earth. This is thought to symbolise the consequence of pursuing one’s delusions.

>>21291282
Traditionalist writing can be beautiful and profound, and also did a great service in bringing Eastern teachings to the West in a faithful form, as well as touching on the Western mystery/magical tradition and movements like Hermeticism, but has subtle traps and limitations inbuilt into — at the very least, the psyches of many of its modern online followers. And this is often expressed by with saying, “It’s part of the counter-initiation” or, “It’s anti-Traditional.” The Traditionalist dogma is, “You have to be part of a specific school or tradition,” slightly hypocritical as many of them were precisely known for deeply studying and comparing multiple religious traditions. Jung wasn’t coming as the herald of a specific religious tradition, although he’s close being to a heavily mystical, unorthodox Christian, so (to them) he’s suspect for that reason.

Another Traditionalist dogma on Jung specifically, I believe, is that he “reduced” religious symbols and teachings to being “mere psychology,” which I think is itself grossly simplifying Jung. Because he’s tied to psychoanalysis, and psychoanalysis broadly is taken as corresponding to the “materialist solidification” of contemporary thought, Jung is further suspect for that reason.

Guenon also criticized Jung’s notion of the “collective unconscious,” which he argues should be more properly be called the “subconscious” (a fair point), and also, that by Jung picking up on this idea particularly from recurring motifs and imagery brought up by mental patients, he was confusing “infrahuman” states with “supra-human states of individuality,” or the subconscious with the supra-conscious, and in this way perhaps even opening himself up to lower, malignant psychic influences (similar to what Guenon thought of spiritualism). But Vedanta itself speaks of the samashti chitta, or “collective consciousness” (samashti = lit. “all-pervading”, chitta = “consciousness”), just as Yogacara Buddhism speaks of the alaya-vijnana or “storehouse consciousness” which is, analogously, like an underlying ocean from which all the tributaries of apparently individual consciousnesses stem, and which holds the accumulated traces of all consciousness in it. So there is a strangely fascinating correlation between some ancient yogis and thinkers of the East, and Jung’s thought, although, again, a Traditionalist like Guenon could even admit this but still see reason to reject Jung because it would be like an “aping of Tradition”, according to him, like the New Age, even if it has some points of agreement.

The modern Naqshbandi Sufi writer and thinker, Idries Shah, also claimed the thought of Ibn Arabi on religion centuries ago rather closely paralleled some of Jung’s idea’s on the collective unconscious and archetypes.

>>21291282
>aion is probably the most horrifying book
Why? What does it assert?

>>21301710
It's worth mentioning that Jung also had no love for traditionalists and considered Westerners adopting foreign religions to be a terrible danger. The reason is that the weapon that caused the wound, as per the Fisher King, is the weapon that heals the wound. The Western wound requires the West to heal it. To adopt Eastern practices is to attempt to escape but you carry the abyss around within you. This is why Jung held up Christianity for the Westerner, because it is Christianity that killed God for us in the first place, so we need to revisit it and learn to find God there before we can be whole.

>>21301686
You can sure as hell feel schizo even if you're actually not when it's something almost nobody acknowledges.

I'm an introspective introverted autist that likes to be alone to do his own thing and I guess due to that I've always had this gut feeling something was really wrong with our schools. It literally has driven me into psychosis and in a hospital for a month almost exactly two years ago now. All of this has made me come to the conclusion that our society is on the brink of collapse, and it seems Carl Jung agrees.

>>21301741
There's another thread about the schools up right now, recommend you go read it and post there.

>>21301741
At some point you gotta realize there's a whole world out there distinct from mass media and pop culture. Just because your opinion isn't on TV and in the newspapers everyday doesn't mean it's some arcane thing that only you have figured out. This is one of the valuable realizations you get when reading some smart books.
Also if you get psychosis and then right after come to some striking catastrophic conclusion, you're probably wrong. But hey it's only been 2 years, I can say from experience that you'll probably feel much more grounded, say, 5 years hence.

>>21301779
Yeah the conclusion I went to was a bit catastrophic, I've started reading this other book called Dark Age America by John Michael Greer that theorizes that we're on a long slow descent to a new dark age that will take place over centuries. But the next decades still wont be pleasant regardless, but not as unpleasant as I first thought.

>>21301803
I love Greer. What do you think about the occult side of his work?

>>21282466
this is similar to the Upanishads and eastern religion level realizations through meditation but experiential instead of conceptual.. don’t worry about fear posting talking about schizophrenia; realizations about reality are often misinterpreted. Sages of India could disembody, read minds, and use energy in ways that our minds say aren’t possible, but alchemy and ‘mind control’ are ultimately different names for realizations and understanding of reality beyond logic. Go beyond the mind. This board will lead you to believe your mind is the thing….the heart is where the soul lies.

>>21301830
no idea lol I haven't bothered reading it yet

>>21300775
>Why do you call yourself that?
I want it to be understood that I'm not any sort of authority on this topic

>>21301733
Yep. In a way, this is a good point (the beautiful and profound heritage of the West should not be thrown out, and we’re intimately tied up in it anyway if we’re Westerners, even in trying to revolt or break away from it — Orientalist chauvinism, that anything of worth is only or mainly to be found in the East, is just as bad as Western chauvinism), but I also see this as a subtle blindspot of Jung’s, and in a way have to give at least one point to the Traditionalists on this. Vedantic emancipation is not “psychological” or “psychic” (as Jung’s work is) in the sense of delving into the subconscious and analyzing the contents of the psyche, but rather about stilling and transcending the psyche (as in Patanjali’s systematization of yoga in his Yoga Sutras, in which the deliberate cessation of cognitive functions will immediately reveal the nature of the Purusha, or Self). Jung avoided meeting with Ramana Maharshi in his travels in India perhaps intuitively/subconsciously because he sensed how explosively different it was from his life’s work, and consciously he claimed in a letter to an acquaintance who highly respected R.M. that it was because Vedantic emancipation/moksha, as exemplified by Maharshi, seemed “inhuman” to him.

>I was very much interested in your news about the Maharshi. I’m well aware of the fact that my very Western criticism of such a phenomenon of the Maharshi was rather upsetting to you. I consider a man’s life lived for 65 years in perfect balance as most unfortunate. I’m glad I haven’t chosen to live such a miracle. It is so utterly inhuman that I can’t see for the life of me any fun in it. It is surely very wonderful but think of being wonderful year in year out! Moreover I think it generally much more advisable not to identify with the self. I quite appreciate the fact that such a model is of high pedagogical value to India.

https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/04/12/carl-jung-and-ramana-maharshi/amp/

However, both Jung and Traditionalists would agree there’s a sort of psychic fissure in the modern West represented by the “New Age”, or indiscriminately, naively believed watered-down popularizations of Eastern doctrines and following of fraudulent gurus. Jung would probably have had some interesting things to say on his concept of “inflation” as applied to, say, grandiose Eastern teachers or New Age gurus intoxicated by their fame in the West, figures like Rajneesh or Adi Da, their ego inflated by an identification of themselves with the archetype of the enlightened sage or wise old man.

>A state of mind characterized by an exaggerated sense of self-importance ... Inflation, whether negative or positive, is a symptom of psychological possession, indicating the need to assimilate unconscious complexes or disidentify from the self.

>>21294112
Switzerland stayed neutral in WWI though

>>21282466
This is genuine demonic possession. Step back before it's too late. You might be lucky and end up puppeted by a "better" benign demon, but that is at most only going to be until the end of your terrestrial existence. After that it will drop you into the abyss when your body is no longer salvageable for its purposes. I'm tempted to even leave an email so I can help you out of this situation.

>>21301710
>which I think is itself grossly simplifying Jung.
He says the same thing himself. He is consistently attempting to remain "scientific" (in the modern sense) and therefore refuses to make statements which go beyond human subjectivity (again in the modern philosophic sense), and which might be really validated in the "objective" world. Admittedly he does try to overcome this in the typically modern sense of vaguely confounding the separation of subjectivity and objectivity, something which is questionable for good reason, for these distinctions to have a limited validity.
>“collective consciousness”
All-pervading consciousness is a diametric opposite to "collective unconscious." You should have noticed this yourself because the key word is negated, "-un" in Jung's usage. The universal consciousness of Vedanta is very, very different to ordinary human consciousness, as there is no longer the ordinary dichotomy of knower and known. Shankara uses the phrases "not-that", "not-this" repeatedly (quoting certain Upanishads) partly to demonstrate how unitary and distinct, yet all-pervading it is. There are many profound consequences of this fact, very few of which are specifically psychological (which is a particular and essential characteristic of the human state).
>which is, analogously, like an underlying ocean from which all the tributaries of apparently individual consciousnesses stem
You are again diametrically confusing the analogies. The rivers do not stem from the ocean, they flow into the ocean; this is the metaphor which is always used, especially in the original sayings. There is an important distinction here, because human (limited) individualities flowing into the ocean does not limit the ocean (the human life is absorbed by the ocean without the ocean changing shape), whereas the ocean flowing into tributaries would limit the ocean and force it to take the shape of its limitations, when the relationship is directly inverse; Atman-Brahman is not limited by anything. Jung seems to make the allusion that the collective unconscious is shaped by evolutionary forces (hence the definite forms the archetypes take); this again would be diametrically opposed to the Vedantic view (which is again not to say that those particular forms and limitations do not exist in a sense).
>>21301994
>that it was because Vedantic emancipation/moksha, as exemplified by Maharshi, seemed “inhuman” to him.
This is a very typical reaction of sentimentalists; those who are still far too attached to the human form. It's almost a litmus test of the extent to which they are still keeping their head "under the blankets" so to speak, how resistant they are to getting out of bed, to cease the slumber.

>>21302340
How do you know this? What books talk about this?

>>21300620
my fellow connoisseur

>>21275493
I'm intrigued on going in, but this will be my first time with Jung's work - is this only after a few others to begin with, or am I in the right zone to step inside this realm of mindfuckery?

>>21302398
>You are again diametrically confusing the analogies. The rivers do not stem from the ocean, they flow into the ocean; this is the metaphor which is always used, especially in the original sayings. There is an important distinction here, because human (limited) individualities flowing into the ocean does not limit the ocean (the human life is absorbed by the ocean without the ocean changing shape), whereas the ocean flowing into tributaries would limit the ocean and force it to take the shape of its limitations,

This is an admittedly sharp point about geology/the usage of a metaphor which I mixed up, which I graciously accept. However, this is Yogacara Buddhism, so while the other metaphor (of a stream — or even drop of water — merging with an ocean) is an archetypal Vedantic one, in Yogacara Buddhism, the relation of the individual to the alaya-vijnana is actually considered analogous to being a “narrowing down” from this larger storehouse consciousness. It is the highest/most primordial of the eight consciousnesses in their formulation, and one metaphor I’ve heard used in a later explication of Yogacara thought (from a Tibetan lama) is if it’s as if the average individual human consciousness has become “frozen” compared to its primordial state as flowing water.

However, this argument is perhaps moot anyway as I admit Jung can’t be perfectly reconciled with conventionally defined Tradition, and differs, again, from teachings such as Vedanta or Zen, as Jung is still about the contents of consciousness, even if the considerably more subtle, rarefied, complex, beautiful, profound, and more spiritual-seeming contents, images, potential experiences of consciousness. Whereas something like Vedanta is about going beyond the contents of consciousness. Similarity is not identity in this case. However, there are still some more interesting similarities between Jung’s concept of the collective unconscious, and the Vedantic one of the samashti chitta on the one hand, and the Yogacara Buddhist one of the alaya-vijnana on the other, just for the sheer spirit of fun.

>>21302938
Compare Jung on the collective unconscious:

>The existence of the collective unconscious means that individual consciousness is anything but a tabula rasa and is not immune to predetermining influences. On the contrary, it is in the highest degree influenced by inherited presuppositions, quite apart from the unavoidable influences exerted upon it by the environment. The collective unconscious comprises in itself the psychic life of our ancestors right back to the earliest beginnings. It is the matrix of all conscious psychic occurrences, and hence it exerts an influence that compromises the freedom of consciousness in the highest degree, since it is continually striving to lead all conscious processes back into the old paths.

Yogacara Buddhism on the alaya-vijnana (storehouse consciousness)

>It therefore postulates a higher storage consciousness, the final basis of the apparent individual. The universe consists in an infinite number of possible ideas that lie inactive in storage. That latent consciousness projects an interrupted sequence of thoughts, while it itself is in restless flux until the karma, or accumulated consequences of past deeds, is destroyed. That storage consciousness contains all the impressions of previous experiences (vasanas, “perfumings”), which form the seeds (bija) of future karmic action, an illusive force that creates categories that are in fact only fictions. That illusive force (maya) determines the world of difference and belongs to human nature, producing the erroneous notions of an I and a non-I. That duality is conquered only by enlightenment (bodhi), which transforms a person into a buddha.

Swami Shantananda Saraswati on the samashti chitta (universal consciousness):

>I would like to explain a little further the idea of Samashti: Just as our body consists of five elements, in Upanishadic thought the human body is said to consist of five elements. Similarly, the entire universe is also composed of its own elements. There is an intimate connection between the elements which constitute our body and the elements which constitute the universe. So that means this body is very intimately, or rather inseparably, connected with the rest of the universe. ... . Samashti is not the connection, Samashti is just the combination of all that. When the sun’s light enters a room through a ventilator and falls on a mirror, that mirror reflects. The light you see reflected by that mirror is intimately, inseparably connected with the light which the sun is giving out. In the same way the light of Samashti is being reflected by our Antahkarana [lit. “inner cause,” or the functions of thinking mind in its totality, made up of four parts, the manas, buddhi, ahamkara and chitta], and the light of our Antahkarana is connected just as intimately with the light of Samashti or Param-Atman. There is no connection between darkness and light but there is a connection between light and light.

>>21302997
(Continued)
>When there is dirt in the Buddhi (higher conceptual consciousness), then it is we who feel that we are separate from the universal mind (Samashti). If there is a fault in the cable between our house and the power house, then we don’t get any light. The same is the connection between Samashti and Vyashti. When the Buddhi is cleansed, then there is a constant flow from the universal source, but we receive only as much as we need. ... Param-Atman is Samashti (universal) and Atman Vyashti (individual). Vyashti descending into the Antahkarana manifests itself according to the samskaras stored. The raindrops that come from the cloud are pure water but when they come in contact with the ground they become contaminated by the dust. While the water is uncontaminated we can drink it and it will keep us in good health, but when we use it without purifying it it becomes the root of illness. Similarly, when the Chit power descends into our Antahkarana and combines with good samskara it uplifts and benefits us. But by intermixing with dirty samskara [mental impressions, considered as leaving traces which manifest as tendencies, traits, habits, predispositions and tied to our karmas) and it causes our downfall.

>>21282466
Not schizo just satanic bullshit. Let Christ into your heart.

Explain the monster girl fetish for me from a Jungian perspective, Jung fags.

>>21303234
Why yes. Jung said that those possessed by their anima became homosexuals.

>>21303288
There are two kinds of gays, masc ones and femme ones. Anima wants to be penetrated, not penetrate other men.

>>21303305
He did say “feminized” in the passage I read. I thought it was just an euphemism for ghey in general. So there are two types of ghey then, huh. I guess monster girl Anon is some anima mixed with the archetype for bestiality.

>>21303328
My anima is pretty present. I am like a psuedo tranny. Kinda sucks.

>>21303333
checked

>>21303288
I would assume you're referring to anime in general but I'm curious if you can go into a bit more detail to see how it correlates with this specific fetish.

>>21303333
Great, now stop hijacking this thread to humor your degenerate, inflated ego.
>>21303355
See above.

>>21303379
>Great, now stop hijacking this thread to humor your degenerate, inflated ego.
Why do I have an inflated ego when my comment is disparaging myself?

>>21303328
wtf is an archetype for bestiality

>>21302398
>refuses to make statements which go beyond human subjectivity

He was asked in an interview if he believed in God. He paused for a moment and his eyes went to the corner of the room, and then replied, I don't believe. I know. I know God exists.
That is an absolute statement.

I have a number of things going around in my mind when I read your post about Jung and science. Jung spoke a number of times about the diabolical nature of science. He spoke of it as the greatest danger to mankind, along with America. He spoke of it as being diabolical, in the true sense. But, as in the Red Book, science and progress, and the heroic American "I can do it! All me, alone, valiant individual hero!" . . . that is the Spirit of the Times, the spirit opposed to the Depths, the false spirit that misleads us and separates us from our pasts, our connection to being itself, to God. When the devil is the voice of the world and in everyone's ear, how can a lowly prophet howling for God break through? He had to adapt to the times. Science was a cloak.

If you are interested in seeing the parts that Jung withheld from the public read Catafalque by Peter Kingsley.

>>21303404
Good post

>>21303385
Self-deprecation is just as egocentric as self-aggrandizing. That and trying to make a thread about Jung about yourself.

>>21303386
It’s a sexualization of the Spirit Animal archetype.

>>21275493
Is the red book the first Jung book I should read if otherwise I'm a well versed reader?

>>21279703
How did you learn about Bible archetypes? Where can I read more?

>>21290802
>>21290765
>"Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody’s around – nobody big, I mean – except me. I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff—I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all."

>>21301733
>It's worth mentioning that Jung also had no love for traditionalists
>To adopt Eastern practices is to attempt to escape but you carry the abyss around within you.
Traditionalists never advocated for that, even though some of them in fact switched religions. Guenon is very, very explicit in this subject. He considered Easter religions not as a lifeboats to jump into, but inspirations that would help the west recover. And I don't think that people converting to Buddhism is in any way related to traditionalism. Most of them in fact reject theism to begin with.

>>21294481
One time I took 70mg of adderall, smoked three bowls, drank kratom tea and meditated and I got a remarkably similar vision

>>21304073
u were very close to breaking free from the matrix anon

>>21275493
test

>>21304073
>One time I took 70mg of adderall, smoked three bowls, drank kratom tea and meditated and I got a remarkably similar vision
Dude that is quite a cocktail, anon. I would've freaked the fuck out. Hell, I probably would've left the body. Above 30mg of an amphetamine is already quite powerful in itself, not to mention even one bowl of some good sensi. Damn dawg. You good?

>>21304073
how the fuck do people like this wander over to /lit/

>>21305819
Lol this board is made for guys like that. I used to be one myself. /Lit/erature is made for freaks.

>>21306059
I've browsed many of the boards on this site over the years I've been here and this is definitely the board with the highest amount of downright weirdos.