/lit/ - Literature

Picked these up for a little under $20. Good pocket reads for a while

Is there a good English-Ancient Greek translator anywhere? I use google translate for latin but I'm guessing that doesn't work for ancient greek?

will learning sanskrit before anything else make me autistic (or higher caste)

>>21203056
Answer pls. How do you search for terms in the entire the Latin corpus? Is there an online resource?

How much do you guys pay for your loebs? There's a bunch at my local bookstore for £10 each and I feel like it's a bit pricey but I don't know how much they should cost

>>21203476
depends on what your mother tongue is. if your mother tongue is english, or any romance language then latin first would make more sense because it'd be easier (latin script and lots of loanwords from latin in these languages making learning vocab easier). if it's an indo-aryan language like hindi, marathi, punjabi, etc. then jumping straight into sanskrit would be fine.

>>21203570
Autism

>>21203551
Depends on the particular author. Very common and 'unwanted' ones are cheaper, high demand and rare ones tend to be more expensive. £10 is pretty good, about par for the course for used. When it comes to Latin and Greek books are made for a niche audience and oftentimes particular authors for a niche within a niche so that price is to be expected.

>>21203551
£10 sounds pretty reasonable

>>21203551
£10 is great for Loebs. Grab as many as you can. Also check ebay for good deals on Loeb collections. There's a 6 book collection on ebay (in the UK) for £16 (current bid), but none of the books interest me so I'm not going to bid. You can find Loebs on Oxfam's online second hand book shop too, but they're usually pricy (in the 20s and 30s).

I hate how 'quod' can be used for both 'because' and as a relative pronoun. It's not even like they didn't have other words for it. They had 'quia'. Curse Caesar for using 'quod' all the time instead of 'quia'.

Quick and dirty buyers guide to used Greek/Latin books. Not comprehensive and quite biased based on my personal experiences and location. Suffice to say I live far from where you would expect to find Classics yet there is a large and constantly changing selection of them if you know where to look. Prices in burger out of laziness. I own several from each publisher except Bude.
If a book is more than the below listing pass on it unless you absolutely must have it. If it is less snatch it up immediately - at worst you will most likely be able to resell it for more. If book is in shitty condition - broken spine, ripped pages, lots of markings - don't pay more than $10.
>Reclam
Under $10, lots under $5
>Loeb
$10 on average, max $20
>Oxford Classical Texts
$30-50
>Bude
$35-50
>Teubner
$50+
Note that these are rough averages. You can find great deals if you look around and look often. Making friends with your local bookseller doesn't hurt either. I've picked up about a dozen OCT's for $10 each because they were missing dust jackets and a few had some writing in the margins.

>ἐν μέσῳ γὰρ ἤδη κεῖται τᾶυτα τὰ ἀγαθὰ ἆθλα ὁπότεροι ἄν ἡμῶν ἄνδρες ἀμείνονες ὦσιν...
I had some troubles with this passage of Xenophon, a translation goes as
>For now all these good things are offered as prizes for whichever of the two parties shall prove to be the braver men
but shouldn't in this case be ὁποτέροις ἄν... i.e the with dative? τὰ ἀγαθὰ ἆθλα (to whomever of the two) = ὁποτέροις

>>21203897
maybe the antecedent toutois is omitted and attracting the relative to its case would be strange because of "ὁποτέροις ... ὦσιν". just a guess.

>>21203938
also, irc, nominative case doesn't get attracted to other cases, at least not as often as accusative.

>>21203261
Crazy, I was just at Pompei today and saw that spot. All the employees there were rude as fuck though, and their own signage was fucked up leading people the wrong way.

>>21203968
Did you ask them why chicken is talking to two fish?

>>21203968
What colour was their skin?

>>21203979
No.

>>21204033
Normal Med/Italian olive skin, the real problem may have been that they were w*men, but after much time spent in Italy I think it's just an Italian cultural issue. They suck at organizing/running things and communicating expectations. I only don't scold them for it because I'm not done looking at all their cool shit and don't want to be deported/banned (yet).

Loebs are fucking dogshit.

>>21203938
>>21203954
mmh I guess so, checking back my textbook/etc... attraction should happen usually with a relative expecting an accusative, indeed, still kinda weird phrasing without some anchor like toutois/ekeinois

>>21203348
Baidu's translator supports it but not well. I think there's also one on Huggingface somewhere but I don't think it's very good either.

>>21204547
What's your main criticisms of them?

I teach at a school and today I discouraged a student from jumping right into Ancient Greek. Now I feel like I fucked up for nipping a student's ideas in the bud. Maybe I'll hand him a printout of the first chapter of LLPSI tomorrow to restore some confidence.

>>21204993
Without any extra context.. I'm just gonna assume that you were in the right.
If the student dives into Ancient Greek he might get discouraged by its difficulty and not try again, but if you tell him it's difficult, then he expects it to be difficult and might better prepare himself for it

>>21205041
He told me that he wanted to curse people out in Greek without them knowing; I told him any language would be good enough for that. He said Greek was the most sophisticated one, so I conjugated the present, future, and aorist of λύω on the board for him and told him "there's more: this isn't Spanish." He just said "I don't think I want to learn Greek anymore" and walked out.

>>21205061
That kid must have some problems. How old is he? What do you teach? What a strange interaction.

>>21205061
Kid sounds like a cunt

Does Greek sound like Latin? I want to know how best to pronounce English words derived from each because I'm a pedantic faggot.

i fell off the wagon pretty bad. I was studying Latin nearly daily for the whole year, but for some reason I got lazy in September.
I want to cry bros, I'm really worried I regressed

>>21205072
>>21205239
He's a high schooler, and a very smart one. I teach math. Occasionally I help out with the literature classes, since I was a double major and the school is short on hands. A big part of working with kids is turning silly impulses into ones that could lead for something more. I did something destructive there, and I am going to try building it up into something more the next time I see him.

>>21205242
No. You pronounce loan-words as they're commonly pronounced because the point of language is to be understood. If a loan is a blatant butchering, then you can go ahead and use the more accurate variant (eg some horrible butcherings of "laissez-faire" in Am.E) and clear it up unfussily ("oh, the French don't say laissez, I think we should respect their language.") Otherwise you are only engaging in ego exercises. Use Greek and Latin plurals if you really want to be pedantic that badly. Or better yet, go study something useful.

>>21205242
many sounds in common, others less, depends also on which pronunciation you consider
big differences would be things like aspirated consonants, φ, θ, χ, if you follow the reconstructed 5 century BC pronunciation, pronounced actually how anglos sometimes pronounce their p, t, k, i.e putting a little (unmarked) aspiration afterwards e.g "put" [pʰʊʔt], "top" [tʰɒˀp], "can" [ˈkʰan]
then there's y like German ü-ber, and if you want to be precise, qualitative difference in the /e/ and /o/ sounds, open and closed, and without macrons in traslitterated Latin script you won't see the difference in length
but as >>21205320 said, if they are loanwords, doesn't make much sense to attempt an archaic pronunciation making you less comprehensible

>>21205320
>oh, the French don't say laissez
Meant as "the French don't say [la.ze]." My apologies, I'm exhausted. Have a good night everyone: I'm going to read.

>>21203551
>How much do you guys pay for your loebs? There's a bunch at my local bookstore for £10 each and I feel like it's a bit pricey but I don't know how much they should cost
Loeb editions have a consistent fixed price when new.
In the UK, it’s currently £18, and in the US it’s $28.
New translations of some of the authors are occasionally done, supposedly for accuracy due to new research, and maybe the older editions will sell for more or less.
For some reason, in the USA, Loebs will routinely, though not always, sell for new cost, or close to new coat, unless purchased in a lot of multiple titles.

>>21204658
Not him
>no critical apparatus
>translations run from terrible to pretty good, never great
>physical quality is decent but page separation from backing material is common
>facing translations are not ideal for language study
I wouldn't say dogshit but they are a lesser option for reading. They excel at nothing but do a decent job of hitting the sweet spot for those seeking a translation and authentic text. Good for the price.

>>21204993
>>21205061
Way to crush the dreams of youth, faggot. Why not tell him to forget about working and start shooting up because life is hard too?
Instead of actively discouraging him you could mention that learning Greek is a tall order but not impossible and then show him a couple basic sentences along with one paradigm, not three, to give him a taste of what to expect. Recommend learning materials, offer to help if he has questions, relate why learning Greek is rewarding even though difficult.
>LLPSI
He said Greek, not Latin.
Why are you a teacher? You clearly are not in it to actually help students grow and prosper. Negrobrains like you are why public education is so awful.

>>21205320
>ego exercises
Like discouraging a student interested in Greek for no reason at all and planning on pushing him towards Latin instead, also for no reason?
>silly impulses
The silliest impulse was the one that drove you to work with kids

>>21205320
>we should respect their language
>French
I will never respect Fr*nch

>>21204658
they are nonliteral translations explicitly marketed as literal translations. I've been shocked by some of the utterly needless deviations from the original text I've seen in loebs.

>>21205984
I've heard similar things but that it's hit or miss depending on the particular volume. Anyone else have experience with Loebs?

>>21205242
You don't want to do this. Throughout history, only pseuds do this. I see it very commonly with Spanish in the US. Some people who are SSLs (Spanish ESL) and go all out with pronouncing Spanish words. Instead of Tiawanna, it's Teehwanna, or Meh heeco instead of Mexico. Or case a dIYYYYYA (read like the HIYA! of a Karate chop) instead of case a diya. Note that I am not advocating for kwesadilla. Perhaps, it will get to the point of playing a minute or so of the Champs' one hit wonder before ordering a drink.
Furthermore, pronunciation varied depending on time and, to a lesser degree, place. Letters were not necessarily pronounced the same in every word--c as in cease and c as in cap. It would be very weird to talk to people about Sigmund Freud and psoo cawlaw goo. Finally, there is the issue of pitch. Greek was spoken like Chinese. Accents indicate rising, falling, and fluctuating pitch. A professor demonstrated how weird a circumflex was for my class once. I forget the musical terminology to describe it, but it was completely foreign to us living Indo-Europeans.

>>21206243
>I forget the musical terminology to describe it, but it was completely foreign to us living Indo-Europeans.
Well, except Swedes. And Lithuanians. And Punjabis. And probably a few others I'm not thinking of right now.

>>21206299
norwegian has tones too

>>21206309
True. I guess I didn't bother mentioning them separately because Swedish and Norwegian are basically two dialects of the same language.

>>21206299
Thanks. My writing is ambiguous, but I tried to indicate that it was foreign to us, the people in the classroom, all of which are Indo-Europeans, minus a Turk who hasn't said anything about accentuation.
I had a Lithuanian friend for many years. I was not aware that the language had accentuation. Cool.

>>21206330
P.S. I'm pretty sure that we (living Indo-Europeans) were the only Indo-Europeans in the classroom, but I couldn't tell for sure. There were lots of bones that are supposed to be animal bones from the Netherlands, but you never know. The professor and a friend of mine were in the process of cataloging them.

>>21205072
>>21205239
What's with these normie replies? Bald man/reddit tourists?

>>21203261
OK where should I start? Are there any charts that provide some kind of a guide for navigating all of these poets and thinkers?

>>21206081
I agree, translations are mediocre to terrible. Loebs are useful as a matter of convenience but for actual in depth study other publishers and translations are almost always better. Take all the English in a Loeb with a grain of salt.
Their main benefit is being cheap and widespread.

bump

>>21203276
Kannst du mir den übersetzen Text aus Abschnitte 8-11 aus dem Buch 76 schicken, falls du das besitzt?

>>21206486
have you opened the first MEGA? there's a bunch of infographics about it
all depends on your interests, get a book or two you like and get going, LLPSI/Athenaze if you like a more input based approach, more grammar heavy books like Wheelock if you like grammar more

anyone learn't old norse

>>21207243
Can do when I get home tomorrow. I don't speak German. Which book, 7 or 6?

>>21203261
I can't read it fully well but reading some things by Cicero and it isn't as hard as I thought it would be.

praecipere literally means to take/grab beforehand, but one of its extended meanings is to teach (and praeceptum, ime, is always glossed with one of its meanings being 'teaching, lesson'). it's not a big deal, but I'm curious what you guys think about the analogy that this meaning has. with transferre, for instance, the analogy for 'translate' seems pretty obvious, with someone "carrying across" the meaning of one language to another, but with praecipere the analogy isn't obvious, though I have my thoughts about it

>>21203968
I don't know why you were expecting good service, the place looks like a dump
were the snails with figs in wine and fish sauce any good though?

>>21203696
which is which?

>>21203261
can't tell if that's a cooker or a latrine

>>21208248
The holes were for accepting amphorae full of hot food, the counter kept them suspended off the ground to minimize heat loss

What chapter are you guys on?

>>21208548
currently stuck on chapter 1, like... wtf does Roma mean?

>>21208583
rooomaaa een eetalia eeest

>>21208583
it's the etymon of the English 'roam', and has the same meaning. so when you get to the second book, "Roma Aeterna", it means "eternal roaming"

>>21208583
You have to intuit it or you'll never be a great orator like kikero

>>21208548
nihil

penis in vagina est. penis longus non est, nec brevis est vagina

>>21208605
woaw thanks anon, I'm fluent in latin now

>>21208656
immo vero, gratiam tibi ago (I'm very grateful to bang hoes)

>>21205242
>>21205320
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. But there is usually a way to pronounce a loan word that sounds natural in the language while still sounding close to the original.
>>21205335
Thank you for actually trying to be helpful. I just wanted to understand why English pronounces some words in Latin one way and others in Greek in another way. The letter "e" becomes a "long i" for Greek words I noticed whereas for Latin words it retains the normal "eh" sound we are used to. I wanted to know why that was and if it has any basis in Greek. I wasn't going to go full Greek pronunciation and start saying Platon and Aristoteles instead of Plato and Aristotle, but I wanted to shift my pronunciations closer to the original if I could.

>>21208254
thanks, but I'm still suspicious about them having such long ladles

>20 synonyms for sodomy, yet no word for "friend".
The Curious Language of Latin, by HANS H. ØRBERG

>>21208688
Meant to (You) you here >>21206243 with my "yeah, yeah, yeah"s.

>>21208688
>The letter "e" becomes a "long i" for Greek words I noticed whereas for Latin words it retains the normal "eh" sound we are used to. I wanted to know why that was and if it has any basis in Greek
that's called iotacism and it's a defining mutation of Greek pronunciation in time, from letter iota, because many sounds, both vowels and diphthongs, all converged to /i/ finishing roughly in the Byzantine period; when Greek scholars eventually came to Italy during the renaissance, whence we get many Greek neologism, they already pronounced /i/ for many vowels, so that's why we have /i/ in many places
one personal anectode I have regarding this that I casually discovered when reading some medieval Latin is a phrase reported translitterated in Latin from 830AD, "Phragkon philon echis, gitona ouk echis"(roughly "if you have a Frank as a friend, you don't have him as a neighbor"), echis = ἔχεις, gitona = γείτονα, indicating that by then the diphthong ει had already converged to "i", which nowadays we know happened much earlier anyway, though in 5th century BC Athens it would still be a long closed /e:/

I propose renaming this general to /csotaslaclg/
>constant state of thinking about soon learning a classical language general
"LLPSI vs. Wheelock maybe I'll learn Greek after Latin" edition

>>21208688
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin

>>21208704
>>21208254
in fact i googled it and WOW
every time I lose hope in the magnificence of Rome, I get it back tenfold
(source: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/AJA/25/1/Roman_Cooking_Utensils*.html )

>>21203261
>HORSE FUCK AT THE SNACK BAR
nice furry porn this is a worksafe board.

I'm doing all this because of a bald man on youtube going around Rome speaking Latin or review games while singing songs in said Latin, it's over.

>>21209237
so what do you want to get out of Latin? do you even care about the literature and/or history? to what extent? otherwise it seems like a waste of time imo. but do you sweaty

>>21208548
LLPSI's Chapter 25 and Le Latin sans peine day 27

starting Ge'ez tomorrow lads...

>>21208741
tibi dic

>>21210597
>starting Ge'ez
What else have you learned already?

>>21210597
Old Ge'ezer

>>21211125
You're just jealous of his BGC

>>21208248
Pompeii aperturae cibum continebant, Germani vero utroque modo usi sunt.

Would it be feasible to learn Classical Chinese without ANY pronunciation?
When learning vocabulary, you'd normally have to remember the association between character, meaning, and pronunciation. But how useful is the latter to someone who doesn't care about a modern Chinese language? Is subvocalizing that important?

>>21210597
I assume you're going solo, considering the time of year. Let me know if you need some help.

Best,
Ethiopianon

>>21211559
It was never tied to a particular pronunciation—japanese (viet, korean, etc) people would read CC with their native readings of the hanzi too—so I don't see why you wouldn't be able to. Things like names and that might need you to pick a reading but I don't know how much else might.

You will miss out on metrical and lyrical stuff like the Tang poetry but apparently they also don't work to great if you are reading them with Mandarin readings, rather than Cantonese which is closer to what they would have been intended to sound like.

I don't know how easy it'll be to try it without any pronunciation, but it's certainly not tied to any particular east asian language. I'm sure it will be significantly more difficult than it needs to be though, and having even familiarity with modern Mandarin and/or Cantonese would help even to find resources etc.

If you're based you'll just learn the reconstructed Old Chinese readings

>>21211559
Learning pronunciation will make it much easier to learn characters. 80% of Chinese characters are composed of one component which relates to the meaning, and one which relates to the pronunciation(Sometimes the modern pronunciation is different, but the classical pronunciation should be closer)
For example, take the character 焦. It means "burnt" and it's pronouned "jiao" in Mandarin.
Then you have 瞧, which combines the above character with the one for "eye" and means "glance" and is pronounced "qiao"
Then you have 蕉, which combines the above character with "grass" and means "banana" and is pronounced "jiao"
You can see in my image that there are about twenty characters you can learn for free if you understand that the 焦 part of the character refers to the pronunciation.

Yes, these are the things I had in mind when asking my question. I forgot about the names, that's a good point.
Normally, I'd want to be able to "hear" poetry, but the regular way of learning CC as a Westerner already loses out on that.

> If you're based you'll just learn the reconstructed Old Chinese readings
My understanding is that the OC reconstructions are very tenuous, and they again doesn't work well for most poetry.

> I'm sure it will be significantly more difficult than it needs to be though, and having even familiarity with modern Mandarin and/or Cantonese would help even to find resources etc.
I'm not familiar with any EA language, and I guess that's the reason I'm trying to cut corners in that manner, because otherwise I would already have a pronunciation picked out for me. But wanting to learn CC without any other EA language puts me in the minority already, so I guess it will be hard to hear from someone who also went the no-pronunciation route.

>>21211708
was for >>21211635

>>21211693
Thanks. I was aware of things like this in modern Chinese, but I didn't know it already occurred in Classical. That indeed is a good reason to learn the pronunciation.

>>21211693
>>21211728
I don't understand what the pronunciation adds in this case. You already see that the characters share a phonetic component, what difference does hearing it make?
Sure, if you're born deaf and don't understand the concept of a phonetic component, then it might be confusing, after all there's no semantic connection between "glance" and "banana", but the exact pronunciation of 焦 doesn't matter at all, or does it?

>>21207547
A sorry just saw that they were german books so I assumed you also speak German. I mean letter 76 part 8-11 if you have them and also maybe from book/letter 16 part 6-8. I have to translate some parts of the letter in Latin Class and want to compare my translation with a professional one.

who was in the wrong?

>>21212492
You won't make it past chapter 8 so why bother asking?

>>21212492
Julius was in the wrong because he did not secure his money better. One must always expect slaves to steal whenever the chance arises.
Do you blame an animal for eating your leftover meal, or do you blame yourself for not locking it up? The slave acts only in his own instinct and cannot understand the rule of law.
Certainly Medus should be crucified, but only to show dominance to the other slaves lest they get cocky and try to overthrow Julius.

>>21212524
y-yes i will

>>21208730
Guy you were replying to here,
Fascinating. Thanks for the enlightening info.
>>21208762
Yeah, I'm aware of this but I was wondering about the Greek pronunciation.

>>21212566
I'm on chapter 22 and getting bored.

>>21212708
can you read the classics yet?

>>21212542
rana clamavit: "sed nunc ambi peribimus!"
"lol" inquit scorpio "lmao".

>>21212787
the frog declared: "but now we'll both perish!"
"lol" said Scorpio Martianus aka Bald Man "lmao"

>>21212745
I can't speak for people who only use LLPSI. I read most of Wheelock first and I've used other textbooks along the way as well. I can read the vulgate pretty easily aside from the vocab, but I haven't bothered to look at anything native from the classical era. I'm honestly not even going to bother until I've completed a few more courses and readers. Idk why people are in such a rush. Learning a language is a lifetime commitment, not a videogame. I'm taking my time and enjoying it more than when I was trying to compare myself to others. Some guy on here said he could read the Vulgate at chapter 15. I couldn't, I don't care. Just keep going until you feel like trying to read something. Pick whatever you want and then do it. Right now I'm enjoying the process. The early chapters are so fucking terrible, it took me months just because of how fucking boring they were. I didn't want to reread them, which made me forget everything and have to reread them. After chapter 13 it gets much easier to read in terms of your attention span. The marcus chapters are actually hilarious. The Fabellae Latinae and Colloquium also helps fill out the story more so it doesn't feel so shallow.

>>21213206
My feelings are pretty much the same, all the chapters without Marcus being a stupid, evil little cunt are boring

>>21213236
>all the chapters without Marcus being a stupid, evil little cunt are boring
I hated him at first, but after the school chapter, he becomes hilarious. He's intentionally written to be so unlikable that it's hard to believe anyone like this could exist on earth, yet the punchline is that he's the dumbest kid in his class and even his father is embarrassed by him. His teacher is literally an alcoholic because of him.

People hate him because he can actually speak latin, ancient greek and ancient egyptian.

>>21213374
>People hate him
Sure, I'll bite. Nobody hates him. They find him cringey and annoying. Also he's a scam artist with terrible pronunciation that sells audio of his abysmal vocal recordings.
>WOOOMA EEEEEN ITAALIAAAAAAA EHHHSSSST
He's in a niche field and runs a channel that is pretty much unchallenged in this regard, so he has no push back from anyone when he blatantly gets stuff wrong or when he presents his theories on historical pronunciation as settled facts despite that he has never researched in a university level library and his degree is in geology not linguistics.

He's an amateur hobbyist who should have stuck to editing the resources tab on a Reddit wiki page. People who study this kind of stuff are so anti-social that they only people brave enough to do it an capitalize on the power vacuum are the autists with no self awareness.

>>21213374
he doesn't know greek or coptic very well.
i'll give credit to him for his latin skills though, but his lack of enthusiasm for classical authors is a bit frustrating and how he uses his talent to make bad covers of disney songs.

>>21213404
>Also he's a scam artist with terrible pronunciation that sells audio of his abysmal vocal recordings.
who do you actually like genius? i bet this is more your taste:
https://quomododicitur.com/2021/05/03/qdp-ep-176-de-bestiis-domesticis/

>>21213448
hasn't ranieri himself recommended that podcast before?

>>21213374
>>21213404
>>21213419
It's obvious his main interest is in latin as a language. He doesn't even care about the literature, I suspect he hasn't read even half of the most popular classic authors.

This would be all fine and swell but he insists on calling himself a polymath and this is not true. His interest in other fields such as Geology and Science are high-school level at best and he obviously has no plans to improve that anytime soon.
A true polymath would realize that he's too deep into latin and needs to work on other fields to balance himself out.

He's not even a polyglot for the same reasons. He's better at languages than most people, but for how weak his greek is.. it's not looking good

>>21213448
Satura Lanx is my favorite. I don't follow or subscribe to any American's or Anglos, but nice attempt to defend his bad pronunciation. He doesn't need you to defend his honor. He sounds bad, it's ok. Just move on with your life.

>>21213455
>how weak his greek is
Lucian™ Pronunciation is the most retarded thing I've ever heard in my life. Watch him do the same thing for Coptic. He'll skim through 3 phonology textbooks and then call himself an expert, create his own system, brand it, and then slap it on a t-shirt and make it into a Patreon perk.

>>21213462
nice, my favorite youtubers are satura lanx and litterae christianae, i was just baiting to get recommendations.
I don't think he's that bad tho

>>21213404
whether or not he actually is idk, but he comes off as a pretentious fag to me. I remember watching one of his polymathy videos (don't know if it's still up, haven't checked out his content in a while) where he said you have to be able to properly pronounce a language in order to truly understand it (which is not true: you don't need to understand what Shakespeare sounded like to understand Macbeth; and even then all we have is a reconstruction, we don't know definitely what x or y Greek or Roman sounded like; also mute people exist)

>>21213513
>he said you have to be able to properly pronounce a language in order to truly understand it
He has some fixation on phonology. He probably should have studied that at university instead of rocks since it's just as useless and uninteresting to people. I mentioned this before in another thread but he did an interview with Carla Hurt from Found In Antiquity and he basically monologue for like half the interview about phonology and she had to cut him off and say "I think we may be boring people nerding out over pronunciation for 40 minutes, can we talk about something else?". I'm obviously paraphrasing, but it was pretty fucking awkward. The funny part is that she's totally bought into his BS trademarked pronunciation conventions, but even she was clearly losing patience with him. He's such a sperg that he couldn't read her passive aggressive tone or wandering body language. That Italian that he's dating is just using him to promote her new Italian channel of her own.

https://archive.org/details/Vulgata_Clementina/bibliasacra_001_vulgataclementina_128kb.mp3
thoughts?

>>21213575
sounds like he's just pronouncing it like it's italian

>>21213591
Ecclestiacial Latin is pronounced almost identically to Italian, at least northern Italian dialects around the 16th century

>>21211559
I know someone who claims to be doing it that way, but I have no idea how. I think his brain must work very differently than mine, unless he's just subvocalizing English glosses and fooling himself that he's not subvocalizing anything. That said, it is best to learn some pronunciation, for the reasons that >>21211693 mentions. Not to mention if you want to memorize poetry as many do, the meter and rhyme will help.
>>21211708
>Normally, I'd want to be able to "hear" poetry, but the regular way of learning CC as a Westerner already loses out on that.
How do you mean?
>My understanding is that the OC reconstructions are very tenuous, and they again doesn't work well for most poetry.
That's true, but Middle Chinese is both much less tenuous and much better for most poetry. I actually do have a friend who's teaching himself CC in Middle Chinese.
>>21211728
Oh, it's a fundamental part of how Chinese characters work.

>>21212694
To my understanding Classical Greek loans in English are also filtered through this.

>>21213481
Isn't 'Lucian' pronunciation basically just Koine?

>>21213749
What he does is take other people's ideas, modify it slightly and names it after himself.

>>21213760
Sure, but what's the issue with the pronunciation itself?

>>21213547
>he has some fixation on phonology
that's what leads me to see him as pretentious. I think there are two sorts of people who care so much about it: those who aren't dogmatic about it but just assume that "proper" pronunciation should be pursued as much as a proper understanding of vocabulary or grammar; and those who consider themselves holier-than-thou by adhering to some prescriptive phonology and become angry or annoyed when someone else doesn't adhere to said phonology. my sense is that Luke is in the latter group. I was reading some Petronius the other day in my Latin class, and we saw the sentence "mihi anima in naso esse", but for Luke it might be right to say "mihi caput in podice esse"

>>21213780
Didn't he say he used to be more obsessive about it and has chilled out somewhat over time?

>>21213738
> I know someone who claims to be doing it that way, but I have no idea how.
Interesting, thanks. If there are other people, at least I wouldn't be completely out of my mind for trying.

>>Normally, I'd want to be able to "hear" poetry, but the regular way of learning CC as a Westerner already loses out on that.
> How do you mean?
I meant that Westerners typically learn Mandarin pronunciation, which doesn't work well for CC poetry, so in that regard I wouldn't lose anything by disregarding pronunciation altogether.

>>21213806
Eh, Mandarin pronunciation doesn't work as well, but it's still a lot better than nothing. Words that rhyme in Middle Chinese rhyme in Mandarin more often than not, and you can tell a word's pingze by its Mandarin tone the majority of the time- first and second tone could be either ping or ru, but due to historical reasons many syllables can only be one or the other. That said, if you don't know any modern East Asian language and don't plan on it there's no good reason not to teach yourself in Middle Chinese.

>>21213805
don't know, like I said I haven't watched his content in a while, maybe closer to two years

>>21213824
My problem with MC is that I'm self-taught and don't trust myself not to butcher it without a teacher. Hell, I don't even trust myself not to mess up Mandarin tones, despite there being endless audio recordings available.

>>21203261
Any anons reading early cyrilic texts?
http://scripta-bulgarica.eu/bg/sources/napisanie-za-pravata-vyara
This website is a great resource with many texts transcribed in unicode. Slowly getting used to the differences has made me want to learn ancient greek as well

>>21208158
anyone?

>>21208158
>>21213928
It also means "to anticipate", not hard to see why. (In fact, that English word ultimately comes from the Latin "capere" as well).
It also means "to command". If you command something, you anticipate it happening, I guess?
Finally, going from commanding someone to do something to instructing someone to do something isn't a big stretch.

>>21213871
Given there are no native speakers of Middle Chinese, how important is it that you get the exact realization right, so long as you get the phonemic distinctions down and the realizations close enough?

>>21213974
That's a fair point.
Then again I should have mentioned that I'm not sure I care about poetry in the first place. More interested in the older prose.

>>21213997
Well at any rate I do think it's best to learn some pronunciation. Language is processed primarily phonologically.

>>21212193
Sorry for bad quality, 76 8-11

>>21212193
16 6-8

yeah, if you don't translate 'immo' as "nay rather" you're a LLPSIlet who's ngmi

>>21204547
t. amazon shill

>>21214091
Thanks a lot bro

>>21213780
Having a bad accent sounds pretty stupid though.

>>21215137
I haven't really strayed beyond what my class requires me to read, so I haven't examined Loebs in-depth. However, I have heard that Teubners are preferred and that Loebs can be pretty bad. I have heard that both the Greek or Latin text in a Loeb can be out-of-date in addition to the translation being poor. I don't think the anon is necessarily a fan of Amazon.

>>21215214
Teubners aren't translations though.

>>21215214
Teubners usually have the best critical apparatus. Their downside is they are expensive and the books are physically poor and prone to serious defects and spine problems. Oxford Classical Texts are a close second and in some cases surpass Teubner in terms of critical apparatus. Older editions are rock solid though newer printings seem to be a little more cheaply made though I haven't had any problems as of yet.
Teubner has a better selection than OCT. Loeb has the widest selection of all with the downsides you mentioned. Get Loebs cheap and bear in mind that while they are by no means the standard edition for the authentic text or the translation they serve their purpose and can really round out a home library or even suffice for a simple class.

>>21215356
Well said.

>>21215356
Loeb was an improvement over what came before in the case of Josephus for example.

Josephus: Jewish Antiquities, Book 12

[262] ταῦτα τῶν Σαμαρέων δεηθέντων ἀντέγραψεν αὐτοῖς ὁ βασιλεὺς τάδε: ‘βασιλεὺς Ἀντίοχος Νικάνορι. οἱ ἐν Σικίμοις Σιδώνιοι ἐπέδωκαν τὸ κατακεχωρισμένον ὑπόμνημα. [263] ἐπεὶ οὖν συμβουλευομένοις ἡμῖν μετὰ τῶν φίλων παρέστησαν οἱ πεμφθέντες ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν, ὅτι μηδὲν τοῖς τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἐγκλήμασι προσήκουσιν, ἀλλὰ τοῖς Ἑλληνικοῖς ἔθεσιν αἱροῦνται χρώμενοι ζῆν, ἀπολύομέν τε αὐτοὺς τῶν αἰτιῶν, καὶ τὸ παρ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἱερόν, καθάπερ ἠξιώκασι, προσαγορευθήτω Διὸς Ἑλληνίου.’ [264] ταῦτα δὲ καὶ Ἀπολλωνίῳ τῷ μεριδάρχῃ ἐπέστειλεν ἕκτῳ ἔτει καὶ τεσσαρακοστῷ μηνὸς Ἑκατομβαιῶνος Ὑρκανίου ὀκτωκαιδεκάτῃ.

>Ralph Marcus
[262] To this petition of the Samarians the king wrote the following reply. "King Antiochus to Nicanor. The Sidonians in Shechem have submitted a memorial which has been filed. [263] Now since the men sent by them have represented to us sitting in council with our friends that they are in no way concerned in the complaints brought against the Jews, but choose to live in accordance with Greek customs, we acquit them of these charges, and permit their temple to be known as that of Zeus Hellenios, as they have petitioned." [264] In this fashion he also wrote to Apollonius, the district-governor, in the hundred and forty-sixth year, on the eighteenth of the month Hekatombaion Hyrkanios.

>William Whiston
[262] When the Samaritans had petitioned for this, the king sent them back the following answer, in an epistle: "King Antiochus to Nicanor. The Sidonians, who live at Shechem, have sent me the memorial enclosed. [263] When therefore we were advising with our friends about it, the messengers sent by them represented to us that they are no way concerned with accusations which belong to the Jews, but choose to live after the customs of the Greeks. Accordingly, we declare them free from such accusations, and order that, agreeable to their petition, their temple be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius." [264] He also sent the like epistle to Apollonius, the governor of that part of the country, in the forty-sixth year, and the eighteenth day of the month Hecatombeom.

>>21214832
Via Latina?

>>21203261
Please, does anyone know where I can find a community of individuals who are willing to help me learn Latin? I need to feel like I'm involved with others to have motivation. It's really hard to do this alone.

>>21215207
I would say the importance of an accent depends on the context, but just because you aren't dogmatic about the phonology of a dead language doesn't mean your accent of it is shit
>>21215551
"Seneca's Moral Epistles"

Why do "linguists" try to map tenses to languages which don't possess them. Is there any actual evidence the roman mind of antiquity thought in more than one active indicative present tense? Wouldn't the language reflect this if they did. Perhaps they did but it was reflected in tone and inflection. What written context could Wheelock be talking about here. NOT BUYING IT.

>>21215939
>just because you aren't dogmatic about the phonology of a dead language doesn't mean your accent of it is shit
He IS dogmatic about the phonology AND he sounds like a shitty overly nasalized anglo-burgermutt.

>>21216100
he's saying translate it as any of those because they all fit, which one you should use depends on the context because some of them will sound retarded in English, depending on how the rest of the sentence is constructed

>>21216143
The annoying youtuber is an annoying youtuber and nothing more or less, please shut up about him already.

>>21216100
my man, maybe classical languages weren't meant for you.

>>21213462
>>21213501
>>21213575
>eccringiastical pronunciation

>>21216249
I'm not the one who brought it up, I was just correcting a statement that I thought was incorrect. Hide posts that you don't want to read or mute the thread.

>>21216289
Because I think he sounds bad that means I'm a tradcath who uses the Ecclesiastical pronunciation? I love and prefer classical - when spoke by Italians like Satura Lanx or Spaniards like In Foro Romano podcast. Idk why the defense of this guy always ends with someone using the entire classical pronunciation as a strawman defense. Nobody here is comparing Ecclesiastical to Classical, they just don't like shitty anglo mutt accents with overly precise vowel quantity that can never mask the Germanic tone.

>>21216335
I'm gonna make a pizza in my home oven on a thin metal pan that I will make it on and then insert in to the hot even, topped with a layer of tomato sauce, a layer of shredded low moisture mozarella, and pepperoni (that's a type of spicy salami, and it's not a pizza worth eating if it's not on there)

>>21216335
So my accent will be eternally cringe because I'm American? Damn.

>>21216348
>So my accent will be eternally cringe because I'm American? Damn.
If you have never learned a living language and then you model your Latin after youtubers, yes. If you learn Spanish or Italian first, then you will understand how to not pronounce other languages as if they are English.

>>21216360
you know the youtuber who lives rent free in your head also speaks Italian, right?

>>21216363
>you know the youtuber who lives rent free in your head also speaks Italian, right?
I guess you didn't see the podcast in Italian where he got absolutely blown the fuck out by an actual Italian. Also we're not even talking about him anymore. You keep bringing him up.

>>21216360
My accent mostly comes from imitating the Hans Orberg tapes that came with llpsi. The only youtubers I watch are satura lanx and the weird car guy.

>>21216377
No I didn't because I don't watch his cringe. I'm just seeing your typical Italian shit and it makes me want to mock you.

>>21216382
>Hans Orberg tapes that came with llpsi.
Respectable, but I would also recommend Daniel Peterson's recordings on Legentibus app.
>the weird car guy.
I stopped watching because he's so fucking annoying. He's so arrogant, he's like the stereotypical smug Med lmfao.

>>21216383
>I'm just seeing your typical Italian shit and it makes me want to mock you.
You are so confused it's not even funny. I'm an American. Nobody is talking about him besides you.

>>21216395
I guess I am confused as to why you're acting like an Italian when you claim to be American.

>>21216399
>acting like an Italian
I'm not even sure how you are defining this. I don't use the ecclesiastical pronunciation, I'm not Catholic, I don't speak Italian, I've never been to Italy, and my last post was complaining about an Italian vlogger who is an annoying stereotypical Mediterranean douche, but since I insulted your bald god you will now just reply to me a million times until i apologize.

>>21216412
why are you bringing up the youtube that nobody here even claims to like, yet again, guiseppe?
>I love and prefer classical - when spoke by Italians like Satura Lanx or Spaniards like In Foro Romano podcast. Idk why the defense of this guy always ends with someone using the entire classical pronunciation as a strawman defense. Nobody here is comparing Ecclesiastical to Classical, they just don't like shitty anglo mutt accents with overly precise vowel quantity that can never mask the Germanic tone.
Gee how could anyone possibly confuse you for a typical wop

I'm not giving you anymore (yous) schizo. Take your meds and go study. I'm not Italian. I use classical pronunciation. Americans who have never studied a language before Latin tend to speak bad Latin no matter which convention they use. They also make their accents worse when they modeled after someone else who also has a bad accent. This doesn't mean I'm from Naples, or Tuscany - it means that I disagree with you. Get over it. I have things to do so this is my last post.

>>21216434
>running away at the first sign of resistance
Italian 100% confirmed.

Oh look, it's that one guy that argues with random people for no reason. Got tired of arguing with grammar fags and trannies I guess?

>>21216143
if you are >>21215207 then I misunderstood you. I thought the post was in (some way in) defense of Luke and those who act like him about phonology

>I have never paid any attention to the phonetic quality of my latin speaking.
>Whether anybody is able to understand me or not is a matter I am indifferent towards
>Sincerly Yulious Chaiser

>>21216816
ok barbare, no Muses will ever love you and inspire you then

>>21203261
Any good books for learning biblical Hebrew?

outside of being able to understand poetical meter (metre for you britbongs out there) or a rare joke or comment about the pronunciation of something or some assignment where you are graded on your pronunciation, trying to properly adhere to a *reconstructed* phonology is masturbatory at best

>>21216938
>trying to properly adhere to a *reconstructed* phonology is masturbatory at best
>>21216938
Staying consistent in the way your pronounce vowels and consonants is fine I think when you are using the language to talk to others or make audio content which is meant to be understood by listeners and not just be a gimmick with subs like voice acting in a videogame. I think the real problem is trying to argue about what's "correct" and also the obsession with observing perfect vowel length which results in people speaking with bizarre unnatural rhythm because of it. I think as I said before, the problem is that a lot of these people have never learned a language before, so when you tell them that something is a rule, then they believe you. And if you tell them a certain person is an expert and there are no native speakers to challenge it, they believe that too and just copy everything they are taught and regurgitate whatever arguments they hear.

>>21216984
that's all fair. I should've qualified my post by saying something like "obsessively" and "to the point where you get mad at other people for not following suit like you"

>>21216994
Don't worry, I agree with you. I've just heard Mexicans before pronounce the C inconsistently because they mix up 's' and 'k' sounds or they pronounce the G and J like in Spanish, which you won't understand unless you speak Spanish. I think when people do that it's detrimental to any spoken Latin environment. It's part of the reason why this is no good audio version of the Vulgate. You can't even be bothered find someone who reads the whole thing in Ecclesiastical because it always pronounced with regional pronunciation that doesn't really follow any rules since the person reading often doesn't even know Latin and doesn't care. I don't care if people do Classical, Ecclesiastical, or if they want to invent a 3rd modern convention with it's own rules - as long as it has it's own rules and is consistent. For example, many people do Classical except they pronounce CH, TH, and PH with the 'h' sounds like "chuck", "thing", and "photo" or they will pronounce the V like "viper". I have no issue with this at all as long as it's consistent and intelligible. Satura Lanx does that and she is 100% understandable without issue.

I pronounce the classical pronunciation with an obvious english accent because why would I pretend I'm not a native english speaker

Does the standard eastern seaboard American accent ever sound cool in other languages? Asking for my friend >>21217109

τίνα ὑμῶν σποδήσω τήμερον;

>>21216874
Weingren + Cook and Holmstedt.

>>21217316
>eastern seaboard American accent ever sound cool in other languages?
Italian, unironically.

σας γαμω την μανα
παοκ μονο

>>21217431
Okay?

do romans really or is this guy being slandered by snarky academics?

>>21217316
>sounding cool to anyone but nerds
>speaking classical latin
pick one

>>21217316
Why would your British friend need you to ask that for him?

>>21217570
> CIL IV 8442
Numquam gloriaturus coponam futuisse sum in muro.

>>21216755
Neither of the other two people replying are who said bad accents are stupid which was me.