/lit/ - Literature

What a contemptibly smug face. You just want to punch it

>>21211219
Or you can just do what his butt-buddy Daniel Dennett does and just go
>there is no hard problem of consciousness it's just obvious what it is
>looks over spectacles psuedily

sam harris is a trust fund baby

>>21211219
>problem of consciousness
No such thing actually exists. It's an error of western philosophy that goes back to Plato.

>>21211219
>the hard problem of consciousness
Do Christians have an answer for animal consciousness, or do they just start seizing if you ask them?

>>21211297
Nothing about "western philosophy" goes back to Plato. Quit believing this nonsense.

>>21211335
>he doesn't know

>>21211219
>ME NO LIKE ATHEIST, THEY ARE BAD
>THEY MAKE ME FEEL MAD AND SAD

>>21211335
Where did Plato write about consciousness?

>>21211349
meant for >>21211297

>>21211349
Plato didn't write his dialogues in order to propound his "theories" on different subjects like politics, epistemology, and psychology or whatever else. I don't know why this naïve conception of Plato is so widespread. People always talk about Plato's "theory" of this or that as if he was a systematizing philosopher like Hegel or Kant. Absolutely ridiculous.

>>21211361
I know. But I'm asking for even a single section where speaks about consciousness in the modern reified sense at all. Writing about psychology is not the same as writing about consciousness for instance.

>>21211352
I'm the anon you responded to. I meant that the problem of counsciousness appears in western philosophy because of a bias towards transcendetalism that was most famously expoused by Plato and then was incorporated into almost the entire tradition.

>>21211361
it's true there isn't something like "plato's theory". there isn't anything like a platonic doctrine.
but it's also true that almost all the idea of philosophy is contained in a few of his dialogues. just check Republic, Pamenides, Sophist, Philebus and Phaedrus, at least. like, these dialogues contain all posible ways of thinking being itself.
the only escape route would be to go back to Heraclitus and Parmenides, who weren't faced with the chore of building philosophy out of the travesty that were the sophists

>>21211219
In 2004 I attended Université Laval in Philosophy. My very first course, an Intro to Logic, was given by the Aristotle expert of the department. Within 5 minutes of the start of the course, he had told us that any atheist should drop from the course, as they could not understand logic.
Next course he told us all about how the greatest failure of his life was raising a girl who ended up being pregnant at 17 years old.
A few courses later, he spent the entire class explaining to us why Chinese "philosophy" isn't philosophy and why only European-descended people could do philosophy.
Fucking loved him, even if he was a cantankerous bastard.

>>21211335
Everything about western society goes back to Plato
cope

>>21212276
>Université Laval

Do you have to graduate highschool to get in?

>>21211335
genuinely interested in how you would defend this

>>21213023
Yes, and usually college (CEGEP) too, however you might get a dispensation.

The best approach to a solution of the hard problem of consciousness so far is Roger Penrose's Orch-OR. You cannot understand consciousness without understanding quantum mechanics.

>>21211219
this man bridged the is-ought gap in a TWITTER THREAD. what have you ever done with your life?

>>21213138
Anyone who puts "quantum mechanics" and "consciousness" together in the same sentence is a pseud who understands neither field.

>>21211219
le solves the is-ought problem face

>>21211461
It's not "the problem of consciousness" it's "the hard problem of consciousness" which has nothing to do with transcendentalism. This is what happens when you comment on something without knowing anything about it. The person who coined the term made it distinct from other problems of consciousness, i.e. "easy problems" which can be explained away with the study of the brain. The hard problem has to do with the nature of qualia, subjective experience, and what systems give rise to/divide subjective experience, the natural laws surrounding those things, and why they must exist at all.

>>21211239
Who?

>>21213451
Roger Penrose is a quantum physicist and one of the leading experts worldwide. If you actually studied physics you would have encountered his name.

>>21211219
>"Hurr durr, god did it"

>>21211332
Animals aren't conscious. Although they are capable of cognition, they do not posses qualia.

>>21213708
Is the ability to perform cognition separate from the possession of qualia?

>>21213482
>qualia
The biggest sophism in recent philosophy. Literally worse than elan vital

>an atheist jew tries to solve consciousness after experiencing mdma for the first time
lol, lmao even.

>>21213708
To suggest such a thing, you must lack an inner life and the abilities to truly engage with the world. "You" are just occupying space, bouncing back the odd, disjointed buzzword. You are a zombie.

>>21211219
>Hard problem of consciousness
I don't get why there needs to be an explanation for qualia emerging from physical effects. If that's what we observe then it's what we observe. I think what's more important, is determining what specific physical states cause which specific streams of thought and states of mind. By investigating this question instead, I believe we will result in a far more concrete, and useful answer that would benefit us.

>>21213905
Ok retard, I'll take the bait, what's your answer for Mary's room?

>>21213708
Your moms anus has qualia

>>21213645
Physicists very frequently end up going a little batty and trying to brute force every other field into being physics. It works well for fields like finance and goes horribly wrong for others like philosophy.
t. physicist

>>21211297
>>problem of consciousness
>No such thing actually exists.
Based truth

>>21214461
You're retarded.

>>21213758
Yes. Qualia have nothing to do with brains or computers.

>>21213939
I experience qualia so no, I am not a zombie, by definition.

>>21214079
>I don't get why there needs to be an explanation for qualia emerging from physical effects
It's because if you don't do this then you can't explain why physical effects result in mental states. If qualia don't "supervene on the physical", then why does hitting your dick with a hammer hurt? If qualia are totally detached from the material, then why is there any order to the human mind? Why do we experience predictable, objective, measurable mental phenomena that are detectable by people other than ourselves, instead of just random mental noise for no reason? Hell, why can't we experience other people's qualia?

At best it's solipsism, at worst it's just total nihilism.

i have yet to see a theist offer a plausible explanation either tho.

>>21214620
Most of what you said is retarded, this is probably the reason the hard problem gets so much shit
>...why does hitting your dick with a hammer hurt?
>...why is there any order to the human mind? (etc)
These are "easy problems" that can be explained with materialism, the neuroscience can answer these. If you think the hard problem has anything to do with cognition or free will, you've missed the point of the thought experiment.

>>21211219
Sam Harris is a jester, unintentionally funny through being so wrong on so many topics, and having so much certainty that he is right and those that would disagree are not only wrong, but indecent, evil. he is a buffoon and should not be taken seriously.

>>21214451
This.
The hilarious part is that physics is really a very barren field, if you think physics has any better chance to explain consciousness than biological chemistry, which is the most fertile of grounds and yet has not offered a single satisfying answer, then you are truly gone.

>>21214819
The fact that qualia is tied to the physical is simply undeniable. Independent qualia cannot be proven to exist.

>>21213132
>Laval
Kek. At least your tuition was cheap.

>>21213451
Roger Penrose is one of the greatest quantum physicists of all time.

>>21211461
>I meant that the problem of counsciousness appears in western philosophy because of a bias towards transcendetalism
Transcendentalism has nothing to do with consciousness or even the hard problem of consciousness. Again, I'm asking how Plato is relevant to the hard problem of consciousness, given that the only contemporary of Plato who even comes close to this problem is Aristotle in De Anima, and even then he never actually broaches the question of consciousness as such, he only indirectly theorizes about it as the terminus of the individual sense organs without actually naming it or considering it in the way we now consider it.

>>21211219
> no greater source of comedy
I dont know. A theist trying to differentiate their deity from a metaphor for the unknown always gets a belly laugh from me

>>21211219
Its one of lifes simple pleasures

Plenty of things funnier, racist Christian’s on 4chan when you tell them jesus was a jewish rabbi for example

>>21214892
Qualia being associated with physical concepts isn't an explanation for the existence of qualia, it doesn't explain how to measure it, and it doesn't justify why it exists or offer any insight into its mechanisms.

>>21214451
The greatest philosophers came from a math/physics background, and today you cannot even do proper philosophy anymore without knowing at least quantum mechanics, formal logic and computability theory. Philosophers with no knowledge of math and physics are limited to postcolonial transfeminism and similar nonsense.

>>21214844
Consciousness is inherently tied to quantum mechanics, as already claimed by John von Neumann, one of the founding fathers of QM. Collapsing the wave function requires a conscious observer.

>>21211219
>Atheist
You mean materialist? Fucking faggot

>>21211219
>there is nothing funnier than my lack of empathy

philosophy of the mind is the most degenerate and embarrassing branch to ever take place

>>21211219
I don't see how adding an imaginary magical sky fairy explains consciousness. Consciousness is largely a mystery. The infinite void of the universe is a mystery. The existence of a super intelligence that's responsible for it all merely kicks the can up to a higher level so tiny superstitious minds can feel cozy because their sky fairy loves them and won't let them really die.

>>21216099
This. The philosophy of mind has effectively been singlehandedly created and simultaneously settled by Descartes more than 300 years ago. All responses to Descartes have just been desperately coping and seething NPCs.

>>21212276
>Next course he told us all about how the greatest failure of his life was raising a girl who ended up being pregnant at 17 years old.
classic atheist father. to be fir theists dont know how make women non-whores

>>21211335
you're the biggest retard I've seen this year

>>21216141
Literal retard
Descartes is the NPC

>>21216300
Cartesian dualism is the only stance that cannot be refuted. Deal with it.

>>21216328
that's because it's a pseudoproblem
and most of modern philosophy is the attempt to take that pseudoproblem to it's absurd extreme. Malebranche and Berkeley are some of the most delirious lunatics in human history. imagine a God that only creates perceptions instead of substances. what a prick

>>21214134
Low IQ quip

>>21216060
Can you stop citing the fucking observer's paradox already? It does not require a conscious observer, it requires observational equipment, like any experiment does.
However our equipment is not good enough to measure things on the quantum scale without interacting with it, thus collapsing the wave function. I'm fucking tired of pop-sci brainlet scum extrapolating some hidden meaning from incomplete statistics we use to DESCRIBE reality in human terms(which is all QM is, statistics).
>>21214844
Completely true, I'm saying this as a former physics student. Was actually my motivation for getting into the field when I was younger and thought I'd also need education to make money.

>>21217037
John von Neumann was not a pop sci brainlet. And measuring devices alone do not suffice to collapse the wave function, see e.g. delayed choice quantum eraser.

>>21211219
>the hard problem of consciousness
Resolved by Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, aka atheists

>>21211219
>the hard problem of consciousness.
there is no such thing Bibletard

>>21211219
Ironically, atheists feel the same about the spiritual and religious attempt to describe truth without contradicting themselves. You guys should get together and fuck, and leave the rest of us who don't concern ourselves with questions the answering of which does not matter.

Imagine giving a shit about what consciousness is or where it might come from. You've got too much fucking time on your hands.

>>21213138
Strange loop theory of consciousness makes much more sense.

>>21213708
>animals dont have qualia
Please stop saying such disappointing things. You could at least attempt to modernize your knowledge to any extent.

>>21214620
>IF WE DONT KNOW WHERE CONSCIOUSNESS COMES FROM OUR ONLY OPTIONS ARE SOLIPSISM OR NIHILISM AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
The great failing of Western thought is this insistence that everything be neatly bifurcated into false dichotomies.
What happens consciousness is determined to be subject to incompleteness, or undefinability? Are you going to devolve into histrionics over it?

>>21213708
1. We are animals
2. Qualia emerges from organic structures
3. You are fucking retarded

>>21217061
I didn't intend to imply Neumann was a brainlet, nor was he pop-sci, but that people who mistook QM results for proof of FTL, multiverses and all the other popular stuff are.

>>21217137
Nobody was talking about FTL or multiverse though. You're committing a strawtranny fallacy.

>>21216060
>Consciousness is inherently tied to quantum mechanics
Jesus fucking Christ this is sad.
QM has no more explanatory power in regards to consciousness than any hippie theory, and certainly less than cognitive theories such as PPM, and those usually don't really tackle the hard problem.
QM is about indeterminacy and energy levels. If we figured that the brain was better at energy allocation than it had any right to be, then we could talk about how QM is involved. But if you want to talk about how consciousness is generated, how qualia is "built", QM has no potential application.
You can't twist it to fit any purpose. There's no way for QM to explain how colors as qualia are "constructed" or whatever. The midwit is going to say "virtual particles" without knowing for a second what it means, as if it was magic.

>>21217106
At best these ideas are descriptions not explanations. There's no way to derive an observer from anything else we know. The phenomena is irreducible and there's no reason to even assume it has a position in space.

>>21217167
Quantum eraser is FTL, that's why it's paradoxical in nature. Not saying that it's neither wrong nor right.

>>21213708
You do know we are aware of the fps of various animal's cognitive systems by measuring the point at which they can no longer track a variable stroboscope, right? That we've rebuilt enough of a cat's visual brain to more or less know how they see us (as Cheetos) ?

>>21211349
Plato does not seem to have clearly written about it or focused on it afaik

>>21213708
This guy has clearly inhabited the body of an animal and is able to report the state of other beings...

Oof.

>>21213138
>The best approach to a solution of the hard problem of consciousness so far is Roger Penrose's Orch-OR
close but no cigar

>>21217175
I didn't say QM can explain consciousness. I said the topics are deeply related. QM is the only realm where consciousness has a physical effect. Hence you won't understand consciousness without investigating QM.

>>21217195
Nothing about the quantum eraser is FTL, you pop sci redditor. It's an experimental setup highlighting some key aspects of QM. For people like you we have the "common misconceptions" section in the Wikipedia article.

>>21217183
>Observer
No such thing exists

>>21216060
>Collapsing the wave function requires a conscious observer.
No it doesn't you pseud.

>>21217271
I started typing out a more detailed response, then realised that calling you a retard is better, because you'll at least understand what I said, if not why.

>>21217402
You know I'm right. Keep seething.

>>21217416
)

>>21217348
I'm referencing a phenomena I know is happening with more certainty than I can know anything else. You're braindead.

What do you'll cowards think of Donald Hoffman?

>>21217543
Heh, midwit

>>21217555
You're incapable of saying anything about any subject so you actively undermine any attempts to say anything.
Say something retard.

>>21217547
Noumenona repacked by retard
Still less retarded than Kastrup

>>21217556
I already said it. Observer doesn't exist and you are a midwit.

>>21214451
This is true. Physicists are massive spergs who want to make everything into physics. Almost as bad as mathfags, who believe that everything is already math. In reality, it’s all just chemistry.

t. chemist

>>21217579
You're actively undermining our ability to say anything. Either dishonestly or because of some kind of serious brain damage.
Say something retard. Use your fucking words. What is the phenomena I think exists? Why do I think it exists? Why am I expecting a response from an actual mongoloid?

>>21217646
>Say something retard
Lol. What a weirdo

>Use your fucking words. What is the phenomena I think exists? Why do I think it exists?

The answer is midwittery

gay thread

>>21217676
Are you actually braindead enough to think you're saying something? You really can't grasp any subject on any level? Just parrot braindead meme words?

>>21217685
>Are you actually braindead enough to think you're saying something?
>I'm referencing a phenomena I know is happening with more certainty than I can know anything else

Heh, ironic

>>21217738
So you're incapable of thinking about the phenomena at all or saying anything about it and think this is some kind of gotcha.
If I pointed at the moon you would stare at the ground and repeat over and over that it doesn't exist with no reasoning given. You're braindead, completely incapable of basic thought.

>>21217738
Have you never thought about what motivates you to undermine basic thought like this?
There's no realistic explanation I can think of except paralyzing fear of finding out the truth whatever that may be. A form of retardation that reinforces itself.

>>21217762
>So you're incapable of thinking about the phenomena at all or saying anything about it
>I already said it. Observer doesn't exist and you are a midwit

>NO MY HECKIN DOGGO IS LE CONSCIOUS.
Why do conversations about the evident chasm between humans and animals bring out the hysterical redditors?
I genuinely have 0 (zero) respect for anyone who thinks their little doggo can actually think. Humans are not animals, sorry you didn't get the memo you illiterate cunts.