/lit/ - Literature

yeah obviously. why do you think nietzsche had to "retire for health reasons" after publishing that bs? also, all of nietzsche's actually "good" stuff was ripped off from italians like machiavelli and vico.

>>21021554
You understand its a gradient and not a dichotomy right. Its a spectrum like Autism.

>>21021554
It's not a false dichotomy, it's one Nietzsche made up out of head canon, but it's still an interesting and illuminating analytical device that works in its own right.

>>21021568
the dichotomy exists at the ends of that spectrum albeit doe

for me, it's

>>21021554
Yeah, and Nietzsche himself recognized it later in his life. It's mostly artists (i.e., people who don't read) who still talk about Apollonian versus Dionysian "forces" as if Nietzsche cared about this anymore for the last ~10 years he was writing. What he was referring to with them both came under the umbrella term "will to power," which is really just the Dionysian part of that equation.

>>21021653
no shit dumbass

>false dickotomy
freudian slip, OP?

>>21021554
It isn’t.

>>21021653
Not reall when you think about it

>>21023276
This

>>21021554
Eh? They're not the same God even. Dionysus is like Aeasculapius and Lycergus in that he was based on a real person (I think he was supposed to be Hercules), at some point; whereas Apollo was a part of the Pantheon - the original family of Gods.

>>21021591
>it's one Nietzsche made up
urgh him again, fucking neetcher.

>>21021712
>It's mostly artists (i.e., people who don't read) who still talk about Apollonian versus Dionysian "forces"
They don't know what they're talking about. One could say that a doctor was driven by an Aesculapian "force" in the identical way they're saying this, and it would be equally meaningless. It's bad poetry masquerading as philosophy masquerading as analytic rhetoric masquerading as a self-help book. masquerading as something else. driven by the lust for a $5 patreon donation.

>the umbrella term "will to power,"
exactly, phrases like that. meaningless. it's a comedy, even, when they're taken seriously.

>>21021568
>Its a spectrum like Autism
You're a spectrum like Autism.

FUN FACT/S
1) Bacchus in the Roman; made equivalent (not entirely accurately) to Dionysus, is a phoneme in the Latin for "drunkard, empty, vacuous, vapid, (vagos)"
2) The "cult of Dionysus" was the only or first (counting carthage) example of the Roman Republic declaring a religious cult to be unlawful and heretical; the cultists would get slaves drunk and goad them into petty acts of rebellion, causing minor aggravation.
3) Apollo and Minerva (Aplu and Minvra) are both Etruscan in their earliest appearances of their names.
4) Today is actually a Solar Festival featuring Apollo for the 3rd quarter Equinox in the Roman Calendar.

FUN FACT/S
1) Bacchus in the Roman; made equivalent (not entirely accurately) to Dionysus, is a phoneme in the Latin for "drunkard, empty, vacuous, vapid, (vagos)"
(and in some slang via vagos 'Cunt, Pussy')
2) The "cult of Dionysus" was the only or first (counting carthage) example of the Roman Republic declaring a religious cult to be unlawful and heretical; the cultists would get slaves drunk and goad them into petty acts of rebellion, causing minor aggravation.
3) Apollo and Minerva (Aplu and Minvra) are both Etruscan in their earliest appearances of their names.
4) Today is actually a Solar Festival featuring Apollo for the 3rd quarter Equinox in the Roman Calendar.

>>21026193
>Bacchus in the Roman; made equivalent (not entirely accurately)
Silenus is I think the real equivalent or counterpart to Dionysus, although he's still kind of just a drunk.

>>21026204
>he's still kind of just a drunk.
ed. and even then it's drawn from Mars Silvanus; the earlier child-version of Mars when he's living in the forests hanging out with Faunus and beating up tigers.

>>21026193
1) False
3) False

>>21026208
saying 'false' and offering no proof as to why is just a libel.

>1)
meh, i'd prefer to give a funny example for this to amuse myself - since it would be insulting to me to write seriously and at length to a one word libel,

by the same use of linguistics we can discern the origin of the word Gallea, for instance, coming to be the word for a Roman plumed helmet, w/ Gallea meaning Chicken or Cockerel (i.e. plumed helmet was referred to phonetically as a "chicken cowl").

>3)
this point has been known since the late 1800's, Hercules, also, predates the Greeks by the same metric - comparing the founding of the Hellenes in Mykenos 1,200BC to the Etruscan villa nova 2,000 to 3,000BC then obviously these things existed in the common culture around the Adriatic long before the formalized Greek notions 'of' those things existed.

>>21026236
You made it up and gave no source. Bacchus comes from Greek Bakkhos and not your fanciful "vagos". Apollo is maybe pre-Greek but not "Etruscan in his earliest appearance". Hercules is also purely speculation on your part.

>>21026274
>gave no source
I demonstrated (offering a predictive model which you can test for yourself) and proved the linguistic application; this is superior proof to linking you to somebody who noticed this and wrote it down before I did - if you're aware of the scientific method.

>Bacchus
lol "the 'Latin' word Bacchus comes from the 'Greek' Bacchus"? Even if you don't see the muddling up you've done there it ought be obvious that if when speaking aloud a person is using the same phonetic and verbatim words as they do for,
>drunkard, empty, vacuous, vapid, vagrant, pussy, cunt
then they're using those same words.

You're kind of arguing that if a rapper, let's say, is called "Fucking Cunt" that this is just his name and has no connection to the meaning of the words "Fucking Cunt".


> Apollo is maybe pre-Greek
Yep.

>speculation
Again, it's just the timelines of what came first and where the words were first recorded as being. The denial of this, or the undermining or denial of existence of the Etruscans is the outlandish non-evidenced based assertion, which is inherited out of later European tradition which ahistorically claims that the Romans and their Etruscan ancestors invented nothing, had no culture of their own, and "stole it all" from Greeks ... when obviously this is easily demonstrated to not be the case; that is: the assertion behind your position is inherited without being proven in the first place, whereas mine is deduced from the full body of evidence.

>>21026274
ed.
>the same phonetic and verbatim
i forgot to add:
that if we can open a lat. dictionary and find that the portions that form the name of the God 'bacchus' already existed 'in' those words,
>>drunkard, empty, vacuous, vapid, vagrant, pussy, cunt
then it proves that the name of the God came from those words and those concepts.

I think your real objection to this is that it sounds irreligious or bad; that doesn't necessarily follow, as a God can be a God representing something Bad or Undesirable Traits.

what's funny is seeing retards on this board get spooked by dionysus such that they will sneer at our rational faculties being meaningful. e.g theology bad because merely contemplating cosmological nature will spoil "muh will".

one anon in an aquinas thread very messily tried to explain how theyre an atheist, except they believe in God, but because thinking about God sullies it, they dont and are therefore atheist. if this is you, I hope you know youre ironically operating on stricter theory than any religion youre trying to refute.
like cutting the head off of religious tyranny and in its place grows the heads of even more rigid conceptions that animate your thinking.

>>21026170
Will to power isn't a meaningless phrase, but it's a complex one that can't just be understood from a Wikipedia article.

>>21026452
It's more funny to see people conflating the character trope of drunkard as being equal or greater in value than a teacher of practical subject that will enable you to make wine and sell said wine to said drunkard, whose position immediately changes when you hold material power to grant him his booze or withhold it.

It's just soft silly nonsense, and more of an impediment to reaching the things you're interested in reaching, than any help,
>rational faculties

> if this is you,
kind of
>I hope you know youre ironically operating on stricter theory than any religion youre trying to refute.
And is this not an obvious proof of the superiority of 'my' argument? I'm not relying on narcotics (i..e booze) to grant me dream visions to help me claw at understanding things in the world around me, or to spur my words as a social lubricant or to rely on people being drunk or high for them to smile and agree with the things I say.

Disciplina.

>>21026496
Kind of is. See above. Inmy experience people who 'desire' for this have no brainpower to understand what it is that makes the person who is 'powerful'actually powerful, so they emulate the worst aspects of the character as if hoping they can just bully their way through life because "that's what powerful people do!" when really they're emulating libels told about powerful people by people who hate them.

"Will to power" in an anti-dionysian sense is about running a farm and growing wine to sell for profit, it's not about drinking it.

>>21026496
or.. better way:
will to power is to compare the dionysian story of Lycurgus to the actual life of Lycurgus, quite literally.

>>21021653
But then they converge on the other side of the globe and become one maaaaan
That’s where the real art is maaaaaaan

>>21026543
Will to power is more specifically referring to an impulse to grow and discharge one's strength rather than just a desire, and it operates at both the conscious and unconscious level of an organism. Power, by the way, is relative; the Christian martyr, in sacrificing his or herself, is still acting on their will to power, the feeling of power being obtained from the sacrifice due to the values possessed by the martyr.

As I said, it's a complex phrase that requires actual study and reflection.

>>21026556
idk about this. It seems to tick the boxes for 'fama' (i.e. pathetic fame) than actually 'being' in power; fame-seeking, glory-seeking vs competency.

>the Christian martyr, in sacrificing his or herself, is still acting on their will to power,
yes! fama! Have you read Lucian of Samosatas "The Death of Peregrinus" today? :D

I'm not even really joking; the difference between a person who is admired or powerful 'for' their actions is completely different to a person who wakes up one day and decides they want to be thought of as 'being' powerful - even in a mildly positive way of self-sacrifice maybe, that person is objectively doing nothing and a person who quietly gathers in the crops without any thanks at all is far more 'noble' in the same sense.

>>21026556
>the Christian martyr,
>Of course there are always those who seek out the glory of persecution; thinking that it makes them 'seem' as if they are Righteous to contemporaries or to posterity: indeed, there is some glory in it to be killed or incarcerated for 'your cause', but to seek ‘that’ out and to make ‘that’ ones objective is the easiest way requiring the most minimal of effort: after all, any fool can get themselves killed, whereas it requires a far greater effort to actually pursue 'your cause' by actually living Righteously and ‘being’ Righteous in the long term."
Wu Zhi Ji Zong

Wu Zhi's : School of the Military : Book IV : Lùn Jiāng / On Willpower
by Wu Zhi 'Ji Zhong' (280 - 230 BC)
BOOK IV
CHAPTER I

>a person who quietly gathers in the crops without any thanks at all is far more 'noble' in the same sense.
That's what I mean.

>>21026496
Will to power is another meme concept like evolution, teleology, utilitarianism, etc., invented to project their beliefs into the world. It stops existing as soon as you stop thinking about it.

>>21021591
>it's one Nietzsche made up out of head canon
It's actually not, Marc Antony stylized himself as Dionysus when he was fucking Cleopatra and Augustus stylized himself as Apollo. The distinction has a subtle reference to that drama and only someone who's very ignorant of Roman history wouldn't catch it.

Once again, the critics of Nietzsche reveal they don't understand enough about art.

>>21026193
>>21026204
There was a cult of Dionysus proper in Rome. Fucking fags.

>>21026718
I didn't say the two gods weren't related (they are in their very own myths, which is what the two triumvirs were probably thinking of), just that the way Nietzsche dichotomized them, especially placing supreme importance on them, is head canon. Plus, one would think if that were the actual reason, Nietzsche would have made at least one (1) reference to the triumvirs. Instead he seems to be solely referencing Greek art, high tragedy, and not Roman.

>>21026706
Uncle Ted calls it the power process. You could call it drive, something else or not call it anything at all and it will still be there. It's an observable, experiential part of being human.

>>21026753
>You could call it drive
You could call it literally anything, that's why it's a meme concept.

>>21026725
you know what it became though, right?

>>21026718
>Marc Antony stylized himself as Dionysus when he was fucking Cleopatra and Augustus stylized himself as Apollo.
kind of

>>21026718
>as Apollo. The distinction has a subtle reference to that drama and only someone who's very ignorant of Roman history wouldn't catch it.
There are also other aspects to Apollo which are never mentioned or commonly known about;

The Story of Apollos Mortal Year (or muddied up as the story of Apollo and Admetus) gives lessons far better than your silly little art musings.

> the critics of Nietzsche reveal they don't understand enough about art.
fuck him. fuck them.

it's a false dichotomy

>>21026760
you can call literally anything literally anything

>>21028092
I saw Jardin Anglais and Francais once, weird show.

why do neopagans think theyre progressive while their myths are more archaic and trad

>>21021554
Well it's a made up dichotomy to illustrate a concept. It's not canon.

>>21029183
Because they are too degenerate and haven't transvaluated their secular culturally Christian values. They try to create a Christian-like church with pagan trappings.

>>21029224
So they make Christianity?

>>21021554
"uwu I'm a cute tumblr neo pagan dark academia girl"
"owo I'm a manly man viking anime character reddit guy, I pray to Odin, but I obey all the liberal social rules and never say nigger"

Meanwhile in the actual pagan myths:
>extreme ethnic supremacy or narcissism for the host population of choice
>eugenics in marriage
>rape of women and children and boys
>bullying men who are the recipients / bottoms of gay relationships, as all their sexual relationships are related to power dynamics
>owning slaves
>gender roles, women in the home / as property of the husband
>acts of genocide

Somehow these themes in Greco-Roman / Norse paganism completely vanish once the progressives take ahold of the aesthetic, and wear it's dead skin as a trophy.

It's the same with progressive Christianity / Christian Marxism - they're Marxists first, Christians second, or third, or as an afterthought.

>>21029183
Because just straight up saying "I'm a consumerist conformist faggot and I suck the cock of herd morality" isn't as appealing once you put it in honest terms.

>>21030551
>bullying men who are the recipients / bottoms of gay relationships, as all their sexual relationships are related to power dynamics
>owning slaves
>gender roles, women in the home / as property of the husband
>acts of genocide
All not true for the vikings. Read a book dude

>>21030565
>vikings didn't own slaves
>vikings didn't have gender roles
You lying dirty nigger, I should beat you for denying reality with such gal, such flagrant disregard for truth

>>21021554
If you had read the first paragraph of Nietzsche's first book you would know that this isn't true.

>>21030565
>"Um ackshually ... vikings never took slaves, their women were 100% equal, they respected gay bottoms, and they never tried to exterminate or subjugate other ethno-cultural groups"
Who let you learn how to read? Who fucking decided a nigger ape like you had the right to think in the English language? If I were in charge of you, you'd be illiterate in chains, growing wheat in a field - far away from books and any delusions that you could possibly have an original thought in that deformed head of yours. Universal literacy was a mistake.

>>21021683

Yo

>>21030572
Women where not regarded as property of men in Viking society, they even had voting rights in communal decisions and learned how to fight from a very young age.
Slaves also had customary rights as well as civil status, being more closer to bondsmen than the slaves in other parts of the world
Again, read a book faggot and stop your masturbatory >muh vikings fantasy

>>21030596
>a slave trade didn't exist between vikings and the rest of Europe
>women could "vote" in a monarchic system
Duplicitous repulsive nigger that can only deal in lies, because the light of TRUTH is blinding to his bulging bug eyed nigger face

>>21029224
>>21030556
>>21030551
>>21030527
ha you guys are lucky I don't have sufficient time this morning to explain how stupid your foreign genital mutilation cult is. as if you don't already know anyway

>>21029183
>>21029224
wellbullshit aside if pople 'do' take seriously the notion of spirits/gods/bigfoot then even the lowest level pagan is technically more in line with their actual spiritual line than a german or egyptian boy praying to foreign jews and holding foreign jewish barbarian - and evil - theologies in their heads.

i mean to say that if there are spirits as a religious person would insist, then you're only making them angry by ridiculing your own ancestry in exchange for that silly non-achieving culture with a theology that declares 'the world' to be completely evil and believes intelligence comes from eating pieces of fruit.

it's largely the reason why jews never invented heated flooring and why christians went without baths. but you know this

>>21030602
I'm not angry because I'm a Christian, I'm angry because this faggot is lying about Vikings being Marxist progressives.

>>21030587
>Who let you learn how to read? Who fucking decided a nigger ape like you had the right to think in the English language? If I were in charge of you, you'd be illiterate in chains, growing wheat in a field - far away from books and any delusions that you could possibly have an original thought in that deformed head of yours. Universal literacy was a mistake.
Beautiful.

>>21030606
oh this guy? >>21030596

well eehhhh Germanics were pretty bottom-of-the-barrel, let's see what a Roman had to say,
"THERE ARE MORE WOMEN IN THEIR RANKS THAN MEN! THEY ARE LED BY WOMEN HAHAHA"
Agricola, probably, i forget

I mean the custom of having women go to your frontline and insult the men as being pussies for not wanting to fight for them tells you all you need to know about why those societies didn't win those battles.

overrated germans.

>>21030615
Don't be cool and pretend to shrug this off by fake-quoting a Roman historian taunting a German.

Fake racism of "hue hue the Germans be like" and "hue hue the French be like" - no, we're done with that cookie-cutter racism. It's professional racism time, because progressive pigs are trying to claim paganism, Christianity, and everything as "they're own."

You fucking Nigger Pigs and your Global Nigger Communism are the only enemy of all mankind.

>>21021568
Autism is not a spectrum. This is propaganda to indoctrinate more isolated kids and be groomed into mindless tards for the left's deviant sexual appetite.
>misdiagnosed since 11 and witnessed it all

>>21030650
I can diagnose you as a faggot tomorrow and solve your problems

>>21030601
> Viking society consisted of a king and a parliament. The parliaments and the assemblies held came to be known as ‘things’. The parliament was comprised of one male from every household. The King was elected by these men – much the same way that the President of the United States is elected (minus the Electoral College). Challenges to the rule were accepted – as long as it was an honourable fight. There was no government, as we know it now, but the king did have a network of contacts and alliances to uphold the peace and prosperity of the land. The Vikings also had no taxes.

>Viking democracy was in some respects freer than many that followed. The king’s absolute power in Feudal England was less democratic, for instance. The idea that the king could be elected house-by-house was possible due to the relatively small scale of the society. The democracy was held on a local level, so would be akin to electing a mayor. Some women also were able to participate, which was unheard of at the time. Disputes were settled through a hearing and unofficial vote held to determine who was in the wrong. This kind of unofficial democracy came to personify the time and forced people to live by an honour code.

Cope
O
P
E

>>21030625
>a Roman historian taunting a German.
A Legate, I believe. A Truimvir at that, if I recall.

>taunting
I don't look at it that way at all; if anything it's a remark on the same dynamics we see today in dysfunctional poorly oranized societies shunting women into the front ranks because they can't get enough men or, like the later Romans themselves, were terribly scared of teaching lots of men how to fight.

It may have been a taunt, but it was a factual one full of ethnic insights. I was kind of agreeing with you anyway about the strange overfixation the 'West' has with Vikings and Germans, when they were hardly the best people around - and if I reember rightly, isn't the entire Norse Paganism derived from a Christian Monk called Snorri who wrote five centuries later... so there's no solid basis to the nordic stuff in the first place, and when it's looked into it's fucking strange as to what Snorri 'claimed' they believed - Odin sucking the cocks of hanged criminals, for example. like that's obviously christian propaganda.

>professional racism
>global communism
neh fuck all that; you'r making the mistake of taking 'self-professed' progressives, who are just apologists for anarchy and poor profligate-criminal government policy, as being somehow 'legitimate' when they, e.g. being modern day slavers, claim to hate slavery.

>>21030668
"Democracy, indeed, has a fair sounding name but.."
Cassius Dio

>>21030625
truth is many of half-retarded things that weakened the West come from German concepts, other than the Jewish-Christian ideology; the notion of 'Hell', verbatim with the word, is a Germanic Pagan concept, the Houseguard (Husband) and Waif (child-wife) as well being starkly different to the Roman Dominus (House Master) and Domina (House Master).

but whateverrrrrrrrr

>>21026676
>>21026687
You will never understand Nietzsche until you abandon your preconceptions of ontological will and power.

>>21026706
>It stops existing as soon as you stop thinking about it.
Why would you stop thinking about it, though? Especially when it remains the most comprehensive and precise ontological premise proposed so far.

>>21031186
>Why would you stop thinking about it,
Who would 'start' thinking about it? Inepts and psychopaths, whose psychopathy stems from their ineptitude in the first place. Anyway, they tend to be physically small so they're nothing to worry about.