/lit/ - Literature

first for zyzz

Reading for class while smoking a cigar. Today has been going better for me than the past week. Good luck to you all with your studies and life in general.

>wake up
>the Cypria is still gone

should always also link the followup thread in the previous one

>>20984950
If it's lost, then it means it's not worthy enough for preservation anyway.

>>20984914
looks like the greekfags are larpers too. it's all fucked.

>>20984914
>>>/reddit/

Updated version

>>20985279
Needs one for
>being taught latin by a personal tutor, no book

>>20984914
You have lit the wrong end.

>>20985045
Unfortunately a massive cope

>>20985361
Kek. I'm entirely certain I cut and lit it correctly.
>>20985142
>>20985255
I consume tobacco regularly--snuff, cigars, and pipes. I happened to be outside, reading Greek, enjoying myself. You're just jealous that you can't read Greek and don't smoke cigars.

>>20985298
>>being taught latin by a personal tutor, no book
This sounds expensive. Are you some posh chap living in an estate in the English countryside?

>>20985600
>You're just jealous that you can't read Greek
You're literally using Perseus with English translation a click away, discord tranny.

>>20985600
It's the fact that you posted that retarded pic on this thread, dumbass.
This last post of yours is even worse.

>>20984840
>For those working on Old/Middle English:
What resources do you use to practice? While Middle English is far easier to dive into with minimal resources, Old English is rather difficult. How is that going for you all?

Should I focus on Koine Greek or Latin first?
Have materials for both, aiming to be somewhat proficient in reading both.
Mostly interested for my biblical manuscript tradition autism; planning on getting biblical Hebrew down eventually as well, though it's the furthest from priority for me.

>>20985609
Meanwhile, you're looking exclusively at the right side of a Loeb. Seethe more, faggot.

>>20985656
Check out Old English Aerobics. Go to the workout room. I know of a few more resources for Old English, if you're interested. I haven't learned OE yet, but I store language resources I'm interested in. What have you got for Old and Middle English?

>>20985798
Of those three, Latin is the least relevant to biblical studies, and Greek is the hardest. Even so, Greek is very worthwhile. Do not try to learn Koine only. Many people want to, and some are very insistent. Those people are foolish. I was just talking today with a religious studies student who is specializing in Greek and the Early Church about such people, and he agrees. Choose a popular Attic textbook that you think will work for you. I'm not a fan of Athenaze, but that's the only one I'm personally familiar with.

>>20984840
should always also link the followup thread in the previous one

>>20985021
>>20985928
See >>20985036

>>20985833
I wouldn't know which side of a Loeb has English on it, but apparently you do.

Erm... poorfag here.
Would anybody be so kind as to help me with a copy of picrel? I cannot seem to find it on libgen and its brother sites.
Oh, if anybody has the Ranieri courses, please halp a fren.

>>20986136
even scholars use Loebs. nothing wrong with them.

>>20985279
>Teach Yourself Latin book
>wise wizard wojak
Is the old version that different? I started with a modern one and it was definitely pic related.

𒀀 𒃶 𒅎

>>20984840
I live like one block from the museum where this painting is.

>>20985279
we need one for greek

>>20985911
I suppose I should say that while my main focus is biblical textual traditions, my interest in both Latin and Greek does extend to non-biblical religious texts, and philosophy as well.
Latin, related to biblical studies for the purpose of reading the Vulgate and comparing it with other translations/manuscripts, would also be applicable to scholastic theology and medieval/early modern philosphy.
I'll take your word on Greek, it would be good to learn Attic. I'll check out Athenaze and do some of my own due diligence looking into other books as well.

Plures quaestiones de genero passivo deponentive impersonalive:
Genus passivus verborum intransitivorum significationem impersonalem habet. Habentne etiam verba transitiva semper hanc proprietatem?
Verbi gratia
>In totis aedibus bibitur estur quasi in popina (Plautus)
>si mangia, si bebe / se come, se bebe

>>20988052
Hoc suspicionem mea, ut verba generis passivi in linguas romanicas verbis pronominalis vertenda paene semper sint, corroborare videtur.

>>20986862
The old Teach Yourself courses (the yellow ones) are god-tier. The new courses are fucking dogshit. They rewrote them to complete with the Routledge "colloquial" language series. They are basically phrasebooks that avoid grammar in order to not scare brainlets.

>>20987533
I don't know enough Greek books. But I will make another wojack collage if people can recommend some books for me to add to it.

I'm aware of:
>Athenaze (Balme & Lawall)
>Reading Greek (JACT)
>Greek: An Intensive Course (Hansen)
>An Introduction to Ancient Greek (Luschnig)

What other Ancient Greek textbooks do people use? (You can include ones that suck too.)

>>20988254
From Alpha to Omega - Groton
Zuntz's series (German and English, they are different)
A Grammar of Attic and Ionic Greek - Babbitt
Greek Grammar - Smyth
Homeric Greek - Pharr
Introduction to Attic Greek - Mastronarde

There are more in the Mega.
Is Luschnig good?

>>20988254
athenaze italian for the smugjack

>>20988290
>Is Luschnig good?
I have no idea. The only person I've seen talk about it is Carla Hurt (Found in Antiquity), but she's fell for the R*nieri brand of language acquisition, so she basically now says it and anything like it that teachers direct grammar is bad. She's now a part of that whole "the best way to learn a 3 thousand year old language is via puppet show and smoke signals" crowd, don't mention the "g-word".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rVtjygjMtA

>>20987635
I just heard that my university is abandoning Athenaze in favor of From Alpha to Omega. My professor suggests that grad students read through Greek: An Intensive Course.

>>20988564
>I just heard that my university is abandoning Athenaze in favor of From Alpha to Omega.
Do you know why?

>>20988753
People don't like it.

>>20988753
the slave in the story triggers the students

>>20988564
My uni used From Alpha to Omega. Think it is standard in the US which is unfortunate because it is a mediocre textbook. There is a severe lack of example sentences and texts and Groton has a bad habit of burying essential information in footnotes. Overall it is serviceable and will teach the fundamentals of AG but there are much better options available.

>>20988899
What do you recommend? Don't you think professors could provide their own sentences for homework? When I took introductory Greek, many assignments were made by my professor.

nemo latine iam mihi respondet, ne pathicus quidem qui semper 'suinus latinus' semper, de omni nuntio cuiuscumque qui hoc in filo latine scribebat, dicebat

>>20989267
unum 'semper' superest
debuerim bis et ter comprobare quod scripseram ante immissum esset

>>20988831
Ahh this is why people are abandoning LLPSI too. They apparently wrote a new book called Via Latina (no relation to the William C. Collar reader) to be "less problematic" when it comes to slaves, women, and minorities. Not a joke.
>https://sites.google.com/view/culturaclasicaediciones/home/lingua-latina/novedades
Preview:
>https://culturaclasica.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/VIA_LATINA_78_81.pdf
I mean it doesn't look bad. I just worry about woke stuff being inserted in it.

>>20988564
I'll take a look into those as well then, thanks for chiming in.

>>20989447
the west has become a joke lmao

>>20989479
It's worth skimming through just for the keks. This is one of the most popular and cited posts on the topic.
>https://thepatrologist.com/2021/08/19/whats-wrong-with-llpsi-part-2/

>>20989447
>eius
since it marks all the vowel quantities, shouldn't it somehow mark that the i is a geminated consonant, therefore making the first syllable long?
I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to distinguish v and u but not i and j, specially when it has metrical importance.

>>20989538
It's a larp. They won't use J since it didn't exist back then.

>>20989572
just like u-v, minuscule, macrons, punctuation, etc

>>20989586
I didn't say it was intellectually or logically consistent. I was just relaying their reasoning.

>>20984840
Is old French a classical language?

>>20990204
nice ! do you already know modern french ? 2 years now its been great learning the language . After reading 100 books in french i'll try to be reading earlier and earlier works till i get to the chanson de geste

>>20984914
nice. i wish i could read greek and smoke a cigar

>>20989447
These type of people really has a desire to learn classical European languages???

>>20990903
Allegedly, yes.

>>20988254
Learn To Read Greek by Keller & Russell

I'm the anon who posted a picture of me reading Antiphon with a cigar. Smoking again, I'm reminded of the hostile reaction. I have decided to provide an update. I'm now starting to read a book called Medieval and Modern Greek by Robert Browning. It's interesting.

Latin question:
is it possible to use all transitive verbs mediopassively? Example: lavor

>>20990903
They see an easily exploitable vulnerability and a way to further their own careers while damaging Western society.

>>20984914
I've forgotten the name of the website, what's its name now?

>>20989447
Why don't we just have past in its complicated fullness: Add gay and trans stuff but also keep the slave stuff.

I'm dragging myself through this section of Zhuangzi excerpts, it's so unbearably tedious and infuriatingly opaque.

>>20991964
>Sallustius ait “provincias inter se partiverant” , nam et partio et partior dicimus: et est verbum de his, quae cum utramque recipiant declinationem pro nostra voluntate, activae tamen sunt significationis, ut punio punior, fabrico fabricor, lavo lavor. quamquam temptaverit Probus facere differentiam inter activam passivamque significationem, ut dicamus tondeo alterum tondeor ab altero; sed hoc in aliis verbis dicere non possumus, ut fabrico fabricor, pasco pascor; nam legimus “florem depasta salicti” et “pascuntur vero dumos” . sunt autem alia verba, quae activae significationis declinationisque sunt, ut caedo, sunt quae passivae, ut caedor. invenimus tamen, activam declinationem significationem habere passivam, ut vapulo, et contra declinationem passivam activam habere significationem, ut loquor. haec ergo caute ab illis segreganda sunt verbis.
tl; dr it depends on the verb, lavor has also the middlepassive/intransitive meaning you have in mind of washing yourself, others don't necessarily work that way

>>20992075
thanks a lot, fren

>>20992072
brainlet

>>20992075
>sunt autem alia verba, quae activae significationis declinationisque sunt, ut caedo, sunt quae passivae, ut caedor.
I'm not sure if I get this part. Does it mean
>there are other verbs, which are of active signification and declination, like caedo, [and] there are [verbs] which are of passive [signification and declination], like caedor.
?

>>20992293
You found it easy?

>>20992398
yes
I guess the specific constrast is that with a verb like caedo there's really no middle voice type ambiguity, i,e one doesn't find a construction like "caedor aliquem" "I kill me[for my own advantage] someone" and it always means I am killed in the true passive sense vs many of those verbs whose passive declination still has often a middle meaning

does anyone know how to type macrons and breves in polytonic greek keyboard for linux?? i can do all the other diacritics. ᾳᾶᾷϊᾡὡὠώἠἡήὴᾆ

if your setup is like mine, macron should be alt-gr + [ , breve alt-gr + ]
ᾶᾱᾰ

>>20992053
Perseus
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

>>20992772
>>20992801

>>20992566
that's what I thought but then I found this
>6 pass. med. caedi, perdersi, battersi
>6 caedimur et totidem plagis consumimus hostem, ci battiamo e logoriamo il nemico con altrettanti colpi, HOR.
I guess he is just showing an example of a verb which has both active and passive forms and meanings in contrast with the rest of examples

>>20993206
where's that from?
from other english translations I still see it translated in the common passive sense "we fall(in battle, implicit)", with hostem being the object only of consumimus

like, a Latin word that imho would be closer to Italian batter-si with the reflexive/middle flavor to it would be proelior

>>20993257
an Italian dictionary, see pic for more info

>>20993310
seems like an unicum imho as far as interpreting it that way, I even checked my own old Latin-Italian dictionary(Paravia) and there's no mention of such middle interpretation, only as transitive
it's pushing it

>>20993342
It may be. I checked another Italian dictionary and there's no mention either of any middle voice meaning. I need to read more and actually understand by myself how these passives are used.

>>20993365
I mean the example they bring themselves kinda refutes them, the adverb "totidem" heavily hints at a contrast, as in "we get our shit pushed in[caedimur], but we wear them down too with just as many blows"
"ci battiamo" imho misses this contrast

>>20993421
it makes perfect sense. thanks for your answers!

>>20993497
I mean what you say makes perfect sense, not so much the dictionary's translation

>>20984840
best book for learning Latin? native english speaker who knows french but I'm also a brainlet.

incinuisse

>>20993851
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

>>20993851
If you can read basic French, then unironically the Assimil Latin course.
https://www.assimil.com/en/9764-apprendre-le-latin

>>20993923
is it a quality course? do you know what it's merits/faults are in relation to the popular english courses/textbooks?
thanks

>>20993930
1. It has more Latin text than most English grammar books which usually just have shitty unrelated short sentences for exercises.
2. It has accompanying audio which most Latin books do not have.
3. Assimil courses are highly renowned as being superior to most American made language courses.

>>20993923
Do not watch any language/polyglot youtube channels outside of these two unless you want to be a reddit cuck. They will talk more about Assimil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Kk7VkoWbc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqR3K1alUio

>>20993950
I'll pick it up, Mersey booocoopey mon amy

>>20993965
based taste

Holy shit why are you all so afraid of learning Greek? Latin is for retards, literally the scum of classical languages.

>>20994090
write that in greek then.
>Latin is for retards
every classicist would disagree. how much do you actually care about classical literature and philology?

>>20994137
enough to not want more spergs sperging out about beginner textbooks

runīgāks

>>20994090
You have to learn the greek alphabet in addition to learning all the grammatical forms which for most people here, are probably the first time they've ever encountered them. It's an added difficulty

>>20994272
>You have to learn the greek alphabet
kek they're truly fucking retards then
It seems a new generation of retards is coming. In one week this thread will become unusable again thanks to all the lispi shitpost.

>>20994272
>You have to learn the greek alphabet

>>20994272
alphabet difficulty is a meme

>>20994272
you need to learn a new alphabet ? it will take like 2 hours you retard . you are not learning fucking kanji

>>20994332
>>20994396
>>20994407
>>20994452
It takes a while before you can read a sentence as easily as you can with the latin alphabet, and that's before you can even figure out what it says for the actual words.

>>20994739
You're completely right. I don't know why these retards are acting like this isn't the case.

>>20992064
They should include pedophilia, lots of pedophilia. It should be so pedophilic that pedophiles specifically read this book to get off.
I enjoy triggering people with racist jokes and the like, but what's even better is pedophilia. Several years ago, when I still had a reddit account, I was confused by people talking about chips and popcorn. They decried child porn, but they were so afraid that they not only avoided the word but also its well-known acronym, cp. Pedophilia is the new n word, and I love it. Not pedophilia. I don't love pedophilia. Pedophilia is bad. Don't diddle the young'ins.

>>20994272
I heard from my brother that to join a fraternity, the pledge must learn the Greek alphabet. If an alcoholic freshman can learn it, anyone can.

>>20994090
greek is intimidating because posters make it seem like millions of "greeks"

>>20994864
Looks like the Esperanto tranny is back with a new shtick.

>>20990903
You've never seen the tumblr classics scene.
It's baffling. I suppose it's a mix of wanting to be "scholarly" and being impressionable women anxious about moral approval.

>>20994864
idk what you think you're trying to say but you're probably a pedo fag, enjoy hell

>>20995139
>lacking reading comprehension
unsurprising for this thread

>>20984840
And when Cephisodorus was archon in Athens, and in Rome, Lucius Phrourius and Decius Junius were elected as counsels. At this time, Alexander, having died childless, left much unrest and discord amongst his generals...

>>20995220
What the fuck are you talking about?

So in my Homer class I've been reading through the illiad and I'm a little inspired to try my hand at some hexameter (although my Greek is absolute trash) I'm considering some Silmarillion inspired lines, which has ignited debate over how to translate names. I want to minimize indeclinables but I'm not wholly sure what to do. So far I have
Μόργοθ, ὁ
Φεάνωρ, Φεάνορος, ὁ
Σιλμαριλή, ῆς, ἡ
Τουργων, ονος, ὁ
Other names are much more difficult, particularly the -wë stem. Honestly for the moment I'm at a bit of a loss unless I use the sindarin way, for example
Φινϝε, ὁ would be the transliteration but the question is how to drop the digamma. Maybe I could Φινυε but I think this is inevitably undeclinable. Perhaps I could make it a ευ stem and make it Φινευς but this doesn't seem right.

>>20990375
Just answer the question

>>20995385
No.

>>20984840
>Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas, quem mihi, quem tibi
>finem di dederint
Can anyone explain these accusative relatives here? What is the antecedent exactly?
>You should not ask to which end the gods have given to me or to you...

how many classicsanons are Italian, I wonder? Checking on this thread is tempting me to go back to practicing with translating passages just like the good old days.

>>20995757
litteraly:
>you shouldn't have asked to know the offense, which to me, which to you end the gods should have given.
it's teasing the object and the datives first

>>20992809
>>20992801
τηανκ υοθ ωερυ μθψη, ι σπεντ σο λονγ φθψκινγ ςιτη ιτ θντιλ ι ρεμεμβερεδ τηατ ι ποστεδ ηερε. αᾶᾱᾰάϖϝϡ
thanks

>>20995838
correction, quaesieris refers to finem too and "scire nefas" means "it's a sin to know".

>>20995757
you shouldn't try to inquire —knowing it is forbidden— which one [end] to me, which end to you, the gods have given

Smyth is a comfy grammar. It's nice to learn more about the dialects, especially while I'm reading homer.

>>20993923
The Assimil course is good as long as you don't care about long vowels

>>20995937
Now type it in English.

>>20997836
sorry non speako anglice

>>20997412
You can still learn them later by reading some macronized book no? I'm ready out loud the fabulas syrae by miraglia with this purpose, I will probably do the same with roma aeterna at some point

>>20997894
>ready
reading

Bi bim bump

Has someone here read this article?
>On the evolution of the short high vowels of latin into romance
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xA73h_R647YZf7fp8saeRAP68x6qHa2U/view
What do you think? (specifically about the first part)

>>20984840
I study Classical China and know Classical Chinese. In my research, I try to compare Classical China and Ancient Greece. I would like to actually know Greek, what's the best way to start the language? I also know Latin if that helps. Thanks.

>>20997894
Yeah, that's true. And, besides, it's Assimil, so it's worth using by virtue of that fact. I've gone through Assimil books for 4 different languages.

>>20999577
personally I thoroughly enjoyed Athenaze(Italian version), also after having already studied Latin
seems polarizing, many people like me loved it, others dislike it, to each its own; I guess it also depends on the pace you want to learn Greek, I took my time, maybe a more grammar dense textbook could get you faster face to face with actual Greek
but at the end of the day all these almost endless discussions about method(for Latin as well) pale in comparison to the main discriminant about proficiency, which to put it bluntly is vocabulary size, so really, imho one ought to follow the method that keeps him engaged and helps him absorb vocabulary without losing interest

>>20999663
I don't agree with the vocabulary thing 100% but holy shit an intelligent post about language learning on /clg/
what the fuck is happening? did they do some shady shit at the CERN lately? are we shifting timelines again?

>>20995838
>>20996981
neither of you answered my question. Is the antecedent finem?

>>21000019
yes, quem refers to finem

>>21000019
no, because it doesn't introduce a relative clause but a completive one

>>21000019
It doesn't have an antecedent since it is not a relative pronoun, but an interrogative adjective.

>>20988831
Actually? Academia gets more ridiculous everyday.

>>20989447
These same people are trying to ungender language cus it somehow hurts their feelings.

>>21000340
luckily latin is dead, no matter how much you scream and seethe you can't change it

>>21000355
sure about that one, buddy?

>>21000396
yes

>>20995234
I see you haven't read much Diodorus.

>>21000355
>luckily latin is dead, no matter how much you scream and seethe you can't change it
He doesn't know...
>https://www.lupercallegit.org/post/a-style-guide-for-gender-inclusivity-in-the-latin-language
They invented another declension lmfao
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-POPQH485BSaS6ANKEm1E7F2PEUSFFLk3opvDWlOOP8

>>21000509
this is simply delusional. what are they going to do? edit all latin texts? modify all manuscripts?
even if they will be able to put you in jail for not agreeing with their delusions, even if they kill all of us and force all scholars to use it, latin will remain unchanged
you should rather worry about learning latin and producing correct texts using it

>>21000509
>>21000550
>mees
>meerum
>mee
Nigga I can't breathe

>>21000509
Dear Lord I do not want to read this though I am tempted. How do these people live? How can they speak Latin at all? They cannot have been raised speaking a language other than English for sure.

>>21000572
The lady that runs this organization has the worst fucking Latin accent I've ever heard in my life and that's saying something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZdM0F1CWDM
Monolingual, over-educated, spoiled, upper middle class morons. She doesn't even give a shit about anything written by white men, yet she dedicates her like to learning Latin and Greek. These people are a waste of fucking oxygen. And I have to pay her fucking student loans while I do real work.

>>20995244
Okay the best I have right now for Finwe and similar names is Φινύης -ου . Not sure if I like it but It's probably the best I can do for now.

>>21000592
actually maybe it should decline like Socrates since the issue with first declension is that it's theoretically an alpha, so in Doric the vowel would be completely wrong.

>>21000589
>that nose

>>21000589
It's sad that these people try to fundamentally alter the language to serve their own political purposes. Coining new terms is one thing, and in fact is arguable necessary, though you definitely want to be careful about it so that it actually fits into the language, but this is certainly incredibly beyond that.

>>21000550
>Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.
'1984', George Orwell

>>21000572
Most of them advocating don't even speak latin. They just want to corrupt in accordance to their party's will. It's go woke go broke. SJWs push something aimed at a different people according to their politics, they don't buy the new thing and the original market has left from the disrespect and shitty product. Rinse and repeat until nothing is left alone and propaganda is all there is.

>>20985279
Heh

>>20984914
Don't do that bro, it will give you cancer. Smoking is also probably not too good for you either.

>>20985279
So which wojaks are the good ones? Or are you just meant to choose the one most like you or who you want to be?

>>21000589
What a fucking piece of shit. That bitch should neck herself.

>>21000886
>So which wojaks are the good ones? Or are you just meant to choose the one most like you or who you want to be?
Generally speaking, the books at the top are not very good, books in the middle are somewhat controversial/have annoying fanbases, and the books at the bottom may not be as popular, but are higher quality. (The winnie the pooh is obvs a joke)

>21000851
If you look into the research, it's a lot more complicated than you have been led to believe. The cancer risk for pipes and cigars is minimal. The cancer risk for smokeless tobacco is non-existant; there are a bunch of really good foreign studies for smokeless.
There is so much more to be said, but I won't argue with you and bore you.

>>20999577
I just started CC a month ago, when you say you "know it" what does that mean? That you have a familiarity with it, or that you can read texts fluently? so far in my textbook so many of the passages are so ambiguous that translators and commentators can't agree to their exact meaning, is it possible to ever read CC texts without having to rely on a dictionary or commentaries or carefully analyzing sentences?

>>21001127
Tourist here, how's the french latin course compared to the others? I'm learning french and heard that the assimil courses in native french are always better.

>>21001357
To clarify, better than the english assimil and most other english courses.

>>20993965
>assimil shill
how many euros are they paying you?

>>21000589
Why do anglos have such a hard time with doubled consonants? Il-la, IL-LA, not ila.

>>21001511
Let's hear your perfect English accent then.

>>21001527
I could speak with a perfect English accent if I wanted to, but I butcher it on purpose to spite angl*s.

>>21001540
Beaner cope.

>>21001511
unlike other speakers, english speakers never conceal their annoying accent when speaking a foreign language. Their fate is to remain monolingual.

>>21001511
because they don't have them in their language

>>21001635
see >>21001527

>>21001635
Unlike err... Indians.

>>21001670
indians can claim that their IQ is at fault

>>21001527
Germans, Scandinavians, Finns and Estonians usually have a pretty good prononciation from my experience.

>>21001738
Not from my experience.

>>21001738
Nords always sound autistic af

>>20989447
apparently the older versions are different as well but I don't see the reason to change it tb h. Are you going to have a fucking heart attack while reading Caesar because he enslaved and killed people? Like the fuck do you need a trigger shit for? You know what you are getting into.

>>21001647
Yes they do. The N in unnecessary, for example.

>>21000509
How the fuck are you going to degender a gendered language

>>21001862
it's an obvious troll

>>21001848
English doesn't have geminated consonants, orthography has nothing to do with it

Can anybody recommend me a good Vulgate? I know the Dumbarton Oaks edition but apparently the Latin isn't proper text and is instead a reverse reconstruction of the English

>>21001862
leftists in Italy have proposed to add the neutral gender endings -ə and -ə for the plural. The schwa and long vowels, as you already know, aren't even native sounds. Thing is I heard it once and I was about to kill someone.
>>21001875
you clearly don't understand these kind of people yet

>>21001978
the nova vulgata and the vulgata clementina are the most common, no? you can find them on the vatican site or nicely formatted on Wikisource, respectively

>>21002032
I'm looking for a physical copy to read.

>>21001978
Personally I have Weber-Gryson. The pages are a bit thin but I like it.

I did it! I finished my first Classical Chinese textbook! A round of applause fellas.

>>21002743
8888888888888

>>21002743
*claps in classical chinese*
ching chong ching chong ching chong

>>21002752
>>21002807
Thanks frens!

>>21002743
Cool. I'd like to learn classical Chinese but I feel like I'll never have the time since other languages are higher up and if I ever get to it I'll be ancient.

>>21001357
Very good. See >>20993950 and >>20993965

Anyone else interested in this? I assume it's a subpar teaching method to do it in latin. Still going to watch it though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knq--asYgjs

>>21001184
Does CC stand for Ching Chong?

>>21002982
Thanks. I just downvoted

>>21002982
His latin pronunciation is the one I like the most from yt. I wish he made complete audiobooks in latin.

Vicipaedia calls screwdrivers "cochleatorstra"

Can anyone make out the second element? Cochlea here is "screw"

>>21003798
I think "cochleator", "I screw" + -trum

>>21003798
>Vicipaedia
Not a source.

>>21003798
I guess it comes from torsio (torqueo, torsi) and -trum
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/-trum

>>21003892
I just put an -s at the end of Italian words
>cacciavite, -is

>>21003798
seems like a unique usage, someone also opened a dispute on the name, it's not like it's a classical word
"vertitorium" is found as alternative neolatin

>>21002937
Thank you.

>>20985656
Here's a free course from UT Austin
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/engol
Here's a book list another anon gave me. I can only vouch for Then Atherton and Pollington, both are ok.
>1. Start with Love, Learn Old English with Leofwin
>2. Then Atherton, Teach Yourself Old English
>3. Pollington, First Steps in Old English
>4. Baker, Introduction to Old English
Here's a list of apps I recommend to compliment your learning:
>LP Old English
Good for rote drills, but you can do the same for free with a flashcard app like Anki droid if you have the time to make card sets yourself. I'm working on my own and can link a download here when I finish if anyone wants.
>Bosworth-Toller/Charles Anglo-Saxon dictionary
Free
>Readings in Old and Early English
From the University of Glasgow, it has texts gradually increasing in difficulty and complexity. They used to have another app which was simply named Old English which was a self study course, that I quite like. It's no longer published on Google Play, but I still have it and can link the apk for download if anyone wants.
I think the biggest problem I am having is that I am progressing in ability to read texts, but I would like to connect with other learners to try to implement regular usage, and better learn to use case and mood(aspect?)
Hu feala hæfdest þu leornodest? (That's probably very incorrect lol)

>>21004702
> I'm working on my own and can link a download here when I finish if anyone wants.
Yes, please.

>>21001501
They're easy to pirate. I have a tablet and an iPod I use together.

>>21000589
Holy shit that accent's pretty good. How do I get to this level?

>>20985279
I agree that LLPSI is swarmed by unpleasant beginners. But where do you place Roma Aeterna? It's vastly better than Familia Romana.

>>21005674
Roma Aeterna isn't a textbook, it's an adapted intermediate reader with selections from real authors.

>>21004702
>>21004744
I forgot to link this site as well:
oldenglish.info
It's another beginners course in Old English that is fairly good. Some aspects it could be better, but if you're an absolute beginner this will quickly familiarize you with the basics.
I will link the ankidroid flashcards I have when I'm done with all the decks, happy they might help someone other than just me.

>>21005323

How do you guys read your loebs?

>Read the latin text first, then read the english text
>Read the latin text first, but don't read the english text at all
>Read the english text first, then read the latin text

So far I've been reading the latin text for a sentence, having a go at understanding it, and then reading the english version, but I feel like it's too casual and that I should be trying to thoroughly deconstruct the latin sentece for like 5 minutes so I know what it means before looking at the english translation

>>21002743
Okay now onto Classical Chinese: A Basic Reader (Princeton University Press)
This has a way better layout than the one I just finished!

>>21007436
People generally rewatch a movie in the targeted language to ease their learning process, as well I'd say that the third option is the best. You already know what the text is about thus you learn how to express the same meanings in latin directly, but there is no real binary process, you should always look after the meaning of unknown words and constructions unlike some people on the internet suggest.

are there any books similar to greek: an intensive course or introduction to attic greek for sanskrit either vedic or classical?

>>21007436
Also on the topic of loebs, does anyone have any recommendations for easy to read books?

WhileCaesers latin is considered to be the easiest, it's still hard to digest because of how tighty packed it is.
You get halfway through a sentence and you've forgotten the beginning of the sentence. Or you look to the other page to find the english translation and you lose your place in the other page.

I want to find more books like pic related, where it's short sentences seperated by lines

>>21008131
Caeser for comparisan

>>21008131
nepos

>>21006162
Thanks for all the helpful info. On what board did the other anon give you the book list? And if you care to share, how did you get into Old English? What made you want to learn it, and what purpose does knowing it serve for you?

>>21008136
Can I have this pdf please?

>>21007436
Use loebs to increase vocabulary. If you want to deconstruct then work some time in for grammar separately.
>Read latin.
>Genuinely try and guess meaning.
>Read english.
>Re-read sentence.
I'll add that it's okay to read a little english first to get some context, but don't do this all the time.

It is hard at first and seems awkward, but over multiple readings you'll see that it works. It's really neat.

>>21008542
How do you do it? Loeb translations aren't word for word. For example, I'm reading the Loeb for Ovid's Metamorphoses and it seems like the English translation has been flowered up a little which makes it harder to point out which Latin words correspond to which English words. Obviously I can tell which sentences correspond but it seems to me the translator has added his own spin on things sometimes.

>>21008461
It's in the mega

>>21008613
Thanks!

>>21007695
Probably only some older grammars. Look on Archive.org for Sanskrit grammar. Maybe try a comparative grammar if you already know some Greek.

>>21007502
How many characters do I have to learn?

>>21001184
I'm in a specific translation 'lineage' that starts with A. C. Graham and goes through Ames. I have gotten grants to translate sections of the Liezi. I focus on the Yang Zhu chapter of the Liezi in my research.
Graham is famous for saying, paraphrased, that no one yet knows CC. I'm doing my best to stay true to the biases and intentions of the original authors, which sometimes leads to awkward neologisms and -ing translations. I started to work with CC about 4 years ago.

>>20984840
My focus is on comparing the philosophies and histories of a wider range of classical societies.
My main focus is on China, but I'm alright with Latin too. I'm gonna pick up Athenaze to dig into Greek and books on Sanskrit soon. Where do I start with Hebrew?
Also, a less confident note, what about Akkadian, Sumerian, or Egyptian? Where should I, if I do, begin engaging with them?

>>21009999
Checked

If you are looking to learn that many languages, be aware that this is a process that will take you the better part of a decade at least if not much, much longer.

>>21010050
I plan to make this sort of thing into my career. I want to be a librarian that specializes in the ancient world. I probably won't end up learning all of them, though. I'm weighing the benefits of each, in addition to my Chinese and Latin. This is the sphere that I want to devote my life to.

>>21009999
You should do Latin, then Greek, then Sanskrit, then Avestan. You could maybe do Coptic after Greek, but I wouldn't worry about Akkadian or Sumerian. You've never fluently read them so it's better to just take a few months learning the grammar and the basic phonology of cunieform, then slowly read stuff with a dictionary and understand that you will likely be reading that way for the rest of your life. As for Hebrew, do it after Greek.

>>21008600
I'm mostly interested in the historians so I don't have much experience with the /lit/ writers. I will say that historians have very "literal" language with a lot of repetitive words and phrases (battles especially are very helpful when you're beginning), and context is somewhat easy to discern a lot of the times.
I would say that perhaps Ovid is probably just a little too "advanced" right now. Verse is difficult for any translator, there's a lot of tricky grammatical nuances, words that really don't have an english equivalent, and liberties taken by the translator (which you've noted).
I don't know if you've ever seen a thread on /lit/ asking "what the best translation of the Iliad is" and having 100+ replies of people saying 5 different authors with no final consensus. It's for the above reasons heh.
Overall, I would definitely try out Caesar and build up from there, while also working hard on your grammar, and going back to Ovid every now and then to see if you've made any progress.

>>21008131
you're comparing poetry and prose. Poetry will almost always be laid out more cleanly due to the nature of poems.
For prose read and reread, eventually you will grasp it. All the embedded clauses and quis and quod seem bizarre at first but you get used to it.
If you really want short sentences then Plautus, Terence, Seneca's tragedies, maybe even Ovid, Virgil and Lucretius. The first two are the most similar to what you are after due to their casual and everyday speech nature. Personally I find Plautus to be quite enjoyable and entertaining and not too difficult beyond vocab.

>>21008600
>Ovid's Metamorphoses and it seems like the English translation has been flowered up
Yes, and not a little. Perfect example of why Loeb translations are to be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes they are great, other times serviceable, and occasionally awful. As >>21010128 says historians and prose writers in general tend to be more simply translated. Poetry is all over the place. You might be better off finding a different translation of Ovid and using that along with Latin. Check the Mega, if I recall correctly the Viking 1958 translation is pretty close to the text itself. Kline 2000 is but it is prose which I detest. On the other end the 1826 is as flowery as it gets and even rhymed

>>21008344
I made a thread asking a question about learning dead languages on /his/ and a kind anon recommended me that list. I had never been to this board before, and didn't know there was a thread I could pose such questions in.
>And if you care to share, how did you get into Old English? What made you want to learn it, and what purpose does knowing it serve for you?
Well, I have always been interested in modern English, I even considered going to college for it; and when I was young I was unnaturally interested in medieval era England, not just the medieval era, it had to be England (I'm American btw, lol), but I was a little retarded then and only read histofiction.
When I had an epiphany a while back about combining those two interests I came to learn about Old English, and I was hooked. So, in the end, I have no important reason! It's just a special, personal interest. The purpose it serves is that it fills a void in my being that only OE can fill. Surely, it would be much more intellectual if I could say, "Oh, I just want to read some Germanic Alliterative Prose as it was originally written by the West Saxons," hah!
What about you? Those of us interested in Old English are far and few between.
Sorry to say, but I must warn you: don't hold your breath on those cards. I'm working on them steadily, but there's a lot to be done between choosing the most important words, choosing which spelling to use as standardized (I use B-T/C dictionary and tend to pick the spelling with the most references, but it's not always so clear cut), and creating a full set of conjugations for each word.

>>21010128
>>21010869
Thank you very much for the informative posts. I will heed your advice.

>>20984914
Nice

Terms in English
steatopygia = fatbottomness

>>21009717
thanks, will try.

>middul english
>spell same word 3 different ways in three lines
why are they like this?

>>21011151
what's a good way to learn to read old english competently? I couldn't give a rat's ass about speaking or writing it myself, i just want to be able to look at scanned manuscripts and read them.

>>21010061
Libraries don't hire librarians with such interests and goals as yours. Finding a job at a university library is incredibly difficult due to the number of useless women who are applying for the jobs and have more qualifications than you.

>>21013090
First, why do you want to read old english?
Second, here's my best advice for you: If you have no experience at all, read the entire course available at oldenglish.info first, then do the UT Austin course. Make a few conjugation tables yourself to help memorize the patterns and expect to consult a dictionary often if you are trying to avoid memorizing large numbers of vocabulary. Do learn how to pronounce what you read regardless of your desire to be able to speak it, when you can hear the words 1/4 of them become obvious as to their meaning, the UT Austin course has a page on pronunciation and OE aerobics has activities regarding pronunciation, too.
Scanned manuscripts will be more difficult than transcribed ones, because you will have to learn to read the script used back then, pic rel

>>21013583
>First, why do you want to read old english?
because i want to read scanned manuscripts.

I like starting things from the beginning. I want to start reading more, therefore I want to start with the very first things written in english chronologically. The visual aspect of the manuscripts completes the experience.

I like reading things simply because they are old. I've read some early middle english. it bothers me that there are works that are older that i haven't read.

>>21013636
Adding to what the other anon said reading manuscripts provides an extra layer of challenge to a text. On top of the script, which varies according to time and region, you have to know all kinds of abbreviations which also vary across times and regions. You would probably be best off learning the language first then scripts and then sigla. If you are deadset on manuscripts then go for it but it will be a much harder path than learning from transcriptions.

>>21013583
As a matter of fact I am currently reading Layamon and for pronunciation I pronounce them more like modern english in my head as I am reading it.

For example, I read words like "theos" (with a thorn), "heo", "heom", and "scipes"; as "these, "they", "them", and "ships". No idea how the "eo" sound was pronounced at the time, but I don't really care too much.

>>21013703
I've already read some middle english manuscripts. Despite some disparate spellings and dialects many of the abbreviations and scripts share some commonalities.

QRD on old english script? Other than the thorn, any new letters?

Let's see what I make out from the image:
>Leofan men gecnapath the sothis
>Theos thorold is on offte yh? nealateth than ende
>ythyh?rs on thorolde aa sthaleng stha thyrse.
>yfthahtt sceal nyde, for folces synnan

Please correct me. what's the one that looks like a lowecase tt?

>>21013820
>leofan men gecnawath thæt soth if Theos worold
>is onofste and hit nealæcth tha ende and thy hit is
>onworolde aaswaleng swawyrse and swa hit sceal
>nyde, for folces synnan ærante criftes to cyme
You really should focus on learning the language first because, as you can see, due to uneven spacing and the script that is hardly recognizable to modern English eyes, you will miss out on a lot.
>For example, I read words like "theos" (with a thorn), "heo", "heom", and "scipes"; as "these, "they", "them", and "ships"
Theos = this, these would be þas and þissum
Heo = her, they would be hie and him
Heom could be them, but could also be him or it
Scipes = ship's, ships would be scipu and scipum
Trying to just jump into it, you're going to miss a lot of meaning a literary value. You really should just try to learn the language, even if only to read it. The most important texts we have in old English are in Germanic Alliterative Prose, so you will also lose a lot of what the writers intended not being able to properly pronounce or mentally hear the text.
I'm not trying to push you towards anything, but you will get much, much more out of it if you property learn Old English. If you like doing things from the beginning, why not also do it right?

>>21014719
>swa wyrse
Not
>swawyrse
I'm decent at it, and still make mistakes that could make the meaning unintelligible.

>>21011151
>What about you? Those of us interested in Old English are far and few between.
I dropped out of three language classes in the first week because I was told a couple times by some education "experts" that I would be no good at language, despite previous experience indicating otherwise. Twice, it was Latin. Once, it was OE. A professor at my school is kind of famous in the field and teaches OE. I dropped it in favor of another class he was teaching. That class kind of sucked.
Now, I've learned several dead languages, and in the not-to-distant future, I'll use the materials you talked about to teach myself. OE looks pathetic with respect to its corpus, compared to every other language I know, but I also want to learn OE for linguistic reasons. One of my problems is that I have learned language after language without consolidating what I know well enough. That won't be a problem for me and Old French and probably not Welsh and Gaelic. But I hope you learn them, anon. Don't forget Norse and whatnot, but you can probably forget about Gothic. Don't be like the guy in this thread who regularly asks about Gothic.
Obviously, don't worry about the cards. Take your time. You should become a regular here and create a Medieval/Germanic Mega.

>>21014728
Different anon here. As the Old English chad was saying, you do you, but I just wanted to make you aware that your choice to only read manuscripts is autistic. I like manuscripts a lot, particularly the unpublished and understudied ones, but reading transcriptions first makes way more sense.

>>21014787
>I dropped out of three language classes in the first week because I was told a couple times by some education "experts" that I would be no good at language
What dickheads, they're still getting paid even if you suck, damn.
>A professor at my school is kind of famous in the field and teaches OE
Don't want you to doxx yourself, but I'd really love to know who
>OE looks pathetic with respect to its corpus
This is the biggest reason the field isn't bigger, it's such a shame all the Northumbrian texts were lost. Despite that, I still love OE with all my heart, and it has a lot of artistic value imo. When read properly the prose can be really beautiful, though that is, of course, subjective.
>But I hope you learn them, anon
You know, I have really considered doing so once I reach my goals in OE, ON wouldn't be a bad follow-up since it's like 40% cognate with OE. I'm also interested in attic and koine greek, so they're on the list.
What are your languages and do you have any good tips on learning by yourself?
OE is my first dead language, and the only language outside of English, so the fact that it has relatively few resources is kind of kicking my butt. Thankfully, I can at least consult courses on modern German for learning how to apply linguistic aspects of Old English that are new to me as a native English speaker.
>You should become a regular here and create a Medieval/Germanic Mega
That's a tempting idea. Even if I don't, I would definitely be a regular contributor to an MGM if someone did make one.

>>21014887
You tagged the wrong anon, fren, I was correcting myself from the post telling manuscript anon that it will be a big challenge and he will miss out on a lot.

LLPSI bros... it's over.

>>21015732
Based.

This is what happens when an actual practicing language teacher peeks into this autistic community of Discord and Reddit incels.

I'm always wanting to use deponent verbs like loquor and utor passively but it's morphologically impossible. what are some ways around this? I'd like to say something like "Latin is still spoken" impassively, without needing a subject like "homines" or whatever.

hwa wære þæs stunt þæt he dead geþeode leornige, kek

>>21015732
LLPSI is just too comfy. The sheer amount of rage it brings to wheelockfags when they realize they have wasted their time is just too good. It makes me think: yes, we are living in the best of all possible worlds.

>>21015732
does she really knows latin?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tom5f1_j6VA

Anyone else get the impression talking to Reddit and Discord LLPSI fags that LLPSI is the only Latin they actually read? None of them ever seem to have progressed past it.

>>21015999
add /clg/ to that list

>>21016008
Definitely. This is without a doubt the worst Latin space on the internet. I sincerely doubt more than 10% of the people here could get past the first paragraph of De Bello Gallico without help.

>>21016016
>10% of the people here could get past the first paragraph of De Bello Gallico without help.
You have too much hope for this place.

>>21016016
and you're one of them?

>>21016059
yes, obviously, where do you think you are?

>>21015877
you need to use another verb, like adhibeo

>>21015959
Hwy "leornige" na "leornode"?

>>21015999
Yep. I left the Discord because it was just a bunch of faggots blabbing about this stupid textbook instead actual literature. Those people have to learn all their grammar from youtube videos, reddit wikis, and asking for help on Discord. Naturally this is a pretty ineffective way to pick up a complex and heavily inflected language, but they don't care and most quit before chapter 15. None of those people in that server have even finished Fabulae Syrae let alone Cicero.

>>21015993
Reading and speaking are definitely different skills. Many people in history or archaeology departments can read French and German, but cant say shit in it.

>>21016211
It’s a purpose clause so it needs the present subjunctive

“who would be so stupid that he should learn (=as to learn) a dead language”

>>21016211
It’s a result clause so it needs the present subjunctive

“who would be so stupid that he should learn (=as to learn) a dead language”

>>21015732
Ranieri Chads, assemble. Can we recover from this?

>>20994984
If I posted half the stuff people thought I posted I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

>>20984914
Looks like a churchill you are having there, great choice regardnig both
Enjoy

>>21016264
Oh. OH. Ok, thank you. I need to change my mindset a lot with understand this language.
Here is how I read it:
>who was that foolish, that he [would] learn a dead language
I didn't even think of translating wære to "would be" even though that could also work.
Why not use swa for so?

Any good living latin communities you guys are involved with? I want to speak/write latin with fellow anons

>>21016365
aliquando hic latine loqui conatus sum, sed semper "shit latin" et reprehensiones vituperationesque (atque sempre anglice) pro responsis recipio

>>21016347
>Why not use swa for so?
You could, there really isn’t much difference. “Þæs” means something more like “that”:

>who would be that stupid, that he should…
vs
>who would be so stupid, as to…

>>21016418
Oh I see, I see. Thank you, this was really helpful

προσαγορεύω ὑμᾶς χαίρειν

What are the chances of some classical manuscripts being rediscovered?

>>21016591
Probably fairly high, I’m sure there are some undiscovered palimpsests out there at least.

>>21016591
100% chance another glowie will get board and forge more

>>20994396
It's not as hard as you think, I just made a song out of it to mumble to myself at work and I got it mostly memorized in a week.

>>20984840
yall motherfuckers really studying greek. lmao this is why some people just fail at life i guess

>>21016950
ἄπαγε ὦ ἀπειρόκαλε

>>21016950
I don't get it either. Unless you're a zoomer christcuck it seems pointless.

>>21015732
opinion discarded

>>21017156
>mulier
>it's one of those orthodox jews with long sidelocks
what does she mean by this?

>>21017156
Unsubscribed. Thanks for the heads up.

alright someone tell me the best book/set of books for learning greek.

>>21016365
Get a penpal and write letters to eachother. There is no community of Latin speakers online. There are only chat rooms where people are chapter 12 of LLPSI write bad Latin to eachother. You can sign up for one of those living Latin events if you can afford it and want to speak IRL.

>>21016591
0% in Europe. The climate is terrible for paper, Venice is underwater, and Rome is constantly bulldozing historical places to build cafes on top. In Egypt and Ethiopia, where the climate actually preseves this stuff, I'm sure randos find shit every year and throw it away or sell it on the black market. I can't rememer if it was the Nag Hammadi Library or the Dea Sea Scrolls where some lady was using some early gospels as firewood.

>>21017515
>randos
That's a new name for them

>>21017500
>>21016365
I lurk here, and every now and then there is good Latin conversation here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6tibttwiz0

>>21017551

>>21016316
you truly live rent free in the thread's collective mind. good job.

>>21017003
to be fair, the only people studying latin in this thread are also zoomer christcucks (or just larping in general)

>>21017786
Christ is the role model for every man. Truly the king of the universe. Are you literally a boomer and non Christian? That sounds sad af ngl

>>21017819
no, i'm a zoomer christian studying latin

>>20985279
So which one is the best?

>>21018269
The roman centurion one

>>21018269
See >>21018269
If you are studying Ecclesiastical Latin, use the one next to it. Collins modeled his book after Moreland and Fleischer.

>>21018413
Why is Callar and Daniell a fascist uniform guy?

can somebody help me with the final clause of this sentence:
>Qui cum ex equitum et calonum fuga quo in loco res esset quantoque in periculo et castra et legiones et imperator versaretur cognovissent, nihil ad celeritatem sibi reliqui fecerunt.

>>21018514
indicative 3rd person perfect tense

>>21018549
yes. I don't understand the meaning though. is reliqui a partitive gen. of nihil? is the reflexive dat. pron. a dative of reference? what about the sense of "ad celeritatem"?

>>21018510
It's a British WWI uniform

>>21018566
>is reliqui a partitive gen. of nihil?
Yes.
>is the reflexive dat. pron. a dative of reference?
Yes.
>what about the sense of "ad celeritatem"?
“As regards speed”

“They made nothing left for themselves as regards speed” = “They hastened without restraint”

>>21018605
great, thank you

>>21018305
It’s $40 new and $30 used, are there any cheaper alternatives? Or do you have a pdf/ePub maybe?

Am I the only one that thinks that Latin spoken with an Italian accent, even in the classical pronunciation maintaining vowel quantity, sounds like fucking shit? Without even consider its historical accuracy (spoiler: none), it just sounds wrong, like a homosexual supermario being sodomized. And I'm not only talking about the bald man but any Italian. They sound like they're opening their mouths to be ready to start sucking cock at any syllable. I can't believe Romans spoke like them.
I'm biased towards English but in general it feels like German speakers pronounce Latin properly, with seriousness. Italians sound like a parody.

>>21019479
It's on Zlib if you dont mind snagging a digital copy. If you want to get a legal pdf, then Collar and Daniell is a public domain alternative.

>>21019591
Imo classical sounds fantastic when Spaniards use it.

>>21019600
lmao how so?

>>21019617
It sounds the most natural and fluid.

new
>>21019683
>>21019683
>>21019683
>>21019683

>>21019674
I can't imagine Latin with mexican accent

>>21019591
>>21019729
lmao you are fucking retarded, Germans and English speakers use all the wrong vowels and can't pronounce an R properly, that's annoying to hear.

>>20988385
>woman
Disregarded