/lit/ - Literature

It's very based on legal-cultural interpretations and re-interpretation of the continuous tradition of interpretation. The implication is that it is mainly focused on everyday life issues as presided over by rabbis, like whether you can flip a light switch on Shabbat, and not on religious devotion. Second Temple Judaism was pretty diverse and had multiple groups including highly devotional "zealot" groups, Essene/Therapeut groups that may have been monastic and communitarian, Samaritans who did their own thing, and probably lots of shades in between (just like how later Jewish Christians had many shades, like the Ebionites and Nazarenes). The tradition that become "rabbinical" Judaism already existed prior to the destruction of Jerusalem but it was one of the few robust traditions remaining when people began to trickle back into the Holy Land after the wars and had to rebuild.

It's covered pretty well in the book The Chosen Few: How Education Shaped Jewish History, 70-1492.

>>20981300
Judaism by that point had changed a lot as well.

>>20981334
Also it's not entirely true, Judaism had devotional strands. But these do seem to have picked up more when they became integrated into the Arab Mediterranean empires as a mercantile and professional class and had access to more learning and languages and such, at least according to the book I recommended. By the 10th-12th centuries there are glimmers of something like kabbalah emerging and by the 13th century full blown kabbalah is a robust tradition parallel to the Christian revival of interest in neoplatonism, or possibly partly causing it (hard to say). Gershom Scholem is good on this stuff.

>>20981300
Judaism was pretty diverse in the 1st century. Rabbinical Judaism *is* certainly very different than Second Temple Judaism. Remember that Jesus even says that the Pharisees occupied the Seat of Moses, and taught authoritatively (Matthew 23), they weren’t inherently ‘evil’, of course, but were hypocrites and overly legalistic. Rabbinical Judaism gradually emerges after the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70AD—the rabbis have to figure out how to cope without having the central ritual space of their entire religion. This is absolutely devastating for them. They have no priesthood now, no sacrifices, and can’t worship as God commanded them. So the anti-Christian Pharisee groups begin to work redacting, editing and assembling oral traditions and trying to preserve what they saw as Judaism post-70AD. This redaction process last for centuries, until roughly 200AD with the Mishnah. The Talmud comes about by 600AD, the main version from study circles in Babylon. Documentary evidence for the Talmud is very poor though. The Oldest manuscripts are Medieval. Rabbinical Judaism also increasingly held to beliefs such as Kabbalah, which led to the introduction of reincarnation (gilgul), along with other crypto-Gnostic views (Lurianic Kabbalah). Rabbinical Judaism has also postulated the supremacy of the rabbis above God, as seen in the story of the Oven of Akhnai:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai

The idea of the ‘Oral Torah’ is a post-2nd Temple one. Philo refers to unwritten traditions, but not an ‘oral Torah’. The New Testament is the exact same in this regard. It is a later concept.

Rabbinical Judaism did not even preserve its own history. The LXX, the works of Josephus, and of Philo, and similar things were all preserved by Christians, and weren’t discovered by Jews until the Renaissance.

>>20981411
>Rabbi Eliezer tears his clothes in mourning and begins to cry. It was said that Rabbi Eliezer had the power to destroy the whole world, yet due to the respectful manner in which he was ostracized, only a third of the world's crops were destroyed.

holy shit, why do jews give their rabbis godlike powers? Its ridiculous

>>20981411
Good take.
>>20982120
It's the old "we waz kingz" type of narrative, but it's almost dragon ball z in how over the top it is.

>>20981411
>The idea of the ‘Oral Torah’ is a post-2nd Temple one
Interesting. I listened to a lecture on the Midrash and Talmud and the Rabbi said that the Oral law was given at Mt Sinai (for example, the details of the phylacteries and how to use them). Was he just lying?

>>20982614
>Was he just lying?
I doubt he was intentionally lying, but he wasn’t speaking factually, regardless. Another good example of this is that Jews will claim that Moses even received Kabbalah at Mt. Sinai from God. The very root of the word means ‘to receive’—but anyone who thinks that full-blown Kabbalah existed at the time of the Second Temple is fooling themselves. And again, we just merely have to stress the textual documentation for a lot of this stuff is atrocious. I have a book by Lawrence Schiffman and he gives a single example of an ‘early’ inscription in a synagogue that ‘closely matches’ rabbinical tradition, and it’s from the 5th century AD in Beth Shean.

>>20981411
>Oven of Akhnai
No wonder Jesus could not even convince these pilpuling Pharisees. Rabbinic trickery has retconned the Messiah into two different people, Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David, the suffering Messiah and the king Messiah.

The Talmud even affirms that the Messiah should have came already, but because of their sins it hasn’t. How weird!

> It is written: “There came with the clouds of heaven, one like unto a son of man…and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom…his dominion is an everlasting dominion” (Daniel 7:13–14). And it is written: “Behold, your king will come to you; he is just and victorious; lowly and riding upon a donkey and upon a colt, the foal of a donkey” (Zechariah 9:9). Rabbi Alexandri explains: If the Jewish people merit redemption, the Messiah will come in a miraculous manner with the clouds of heaven. If they do not merit redemption, the Messiah will come lowly and riding upon a donkey.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5458622/jewish/98a.htm

And he came on a donkey!

> In relation to the discussion on the calculation of years, the Gemara states that one of the Sages of the school of Eliyahu taught: The world is destined to exist for six thousand years. For two thousand years the world was waste, as the Torah had not yet been given. The next set of two thousand years are the time period of the Torah. The last set of two thousand years are the period designated for the days of the Messiah, but due to our many sins there are those years that have been taken from them, i.e., such and such years have already passed and have been taken from the two thousand years that are designated for the Messiah, and the Messiah has not yet arrived.
https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.9a.5?lang=bi

The Talmud also says that the sins at the Temple stopped being forgiven FORTY YEARS before its destruction (in 30AD—how weird!)
>The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too, the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat that was sent to Azazel did not turn white, and the westernmost lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.
https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b?lang=bi

Look at the cope, they know something is awry, and the cognitive dissonance is sad.

Let’s not forget the Talmud is full of seething against proto-trinitarian interpretations of Jewish scriptures. Read the book ‘Two Powers in Heaven’

>>20981300
The problem is that there were ungodly teachings in Jewish-Israelite society which struck completely against the divine revelation, and the Old Testament talks constantly of this. After the seed came, namely Christ, these wrong ideas were still latent in 1st century society there. They were represented by the various manmade teachings of the pharisees, and of other groups as well. Christ rightly pointed out the false teachings once again, just as the prophets had done before, and once again (like in the parable of the wicked husbandmen) these wicked people killed Him.

So, the "religion of the people of 2nd temple period Judea" is far from being a single thing, although it is maintained that in principle there should only have been one. But there were various false traditions at the time which were not truly related to the divinely revealed Scripture, even though they might have purported to be such to the unlearned.

The world became polarized into those who rejected Christ and those who accepted Him based primarily on the fact that it's all foretold in Scripture. One of the groups that openly rejected didn't settle on a final form for the Babylonian Talmud, in which they codified their rejection of Christ, until around AD 499. And they took various gnostic ideas into their text, such as where they refer to deity names from Manichean texts. This latter group, and the various ones based on it today have nothing in common with 1st century Judea and the true prophecies and teachings of the Bible, except for a superficial appearance which is deliberately manufactured as a means of deception, similar to how cults like Mormons and JWs take on superficial similarity to Christianity.

>>20981411
>Remember that Jesus even says that the Pharisees occupied the Seat of Moses
That refers to the fact that the faction was then at the head of civil government. But it does not mean that there is any truth value to anything unbiblical this group taught.

>>20983371
>But it does not mean that there is any truth value to anything unbiblical this group taught.
It is still in reference to a non-Biblical tradition, which is the point. Do what they say, but not what they do. I of course agree with you that unbiblical traditions are being criticized here.

>>20983394
>Do what they say, but not what they do.
It's similar to what Paul said about Roman authority and praying for those in government in Romans 13 & 1 Timothy 2. See also what Jesus said in John 19:11.

The sad part of threads like this is that we will never see the other side because no intelectual jew cares about to answer so we will only have the schizo christcucks shitting on judaism without defense

>>20981300
for a gigantic tl;dr
second temple period jews had the temple and could in theory follow the Tanakh, although they were hypocrites and too legalistic. also denied the Messiah (although some did overcome their pride and saw that Christ was the fulfillment of all the prophecies)

rabbinical judaism came after the destruction of the temple, where the rabbis scrambled to make something up to keep their power and influence, and they did so by making up the oral law, talmud, etc, fooling the people and making themselves "all powerful" and whatever else you see.

tl;dr of the tl;dr
they were already bad, now they're much worse.

>>20983468
check the one for israel channel. messianic jews debunking rabbinical claims and discussing Scripture.
they "don't care to answer" because they cannot answer. their whole argument is deflection and deceiving to "convince" you.
there's a reason the NT is banned, and they stopped reading passages like Isaiah 53 in parashat.

>>20983470
Fullfiment of all their prophecies exept being related paternally to david and bringing the end of the world, and others.

>>20983482
>messianic jews
Lol. Yeah let me hear about judaism from traitor jews. The rabbis got all refuted thats why they are the main branch of judaism today. Maybe they have their reasons dude

>>20983500
The real Jews and the real Israel is the Orthodox Church, never forget that

>>20983485
read the start of Matthew and Luke, and that's the Second Coming. he's fulfilling two prophecies, remember?

>>20983500
>maybe the rabbis have their reasons
yeah, selfish power hunger
explained it last post, they keep it by holding people in the dark and claiming only they are fit to interpret Scripture, while they warp it to their heart's content.

>>20983470
It seems it is an imposed deadlock, to lead the whole thing to a 'joo bad' momentum.

Though, they are destined to make it truly our greatest ally: memeing the meme and breaking away from the dialectics; because you can only advance through your own essence, in your own home doing your own language.
>>20983468
can agree. though I would much more enjoy a completely alien race coming up to present us with a completely other way of posting, of conveying communications. you know what I am saying? 'neosneed comes from the future'. or is it nonsense? antisemites are stupid, antisemites become (dialectical) slaves just like.. Eliezer, a former slave! Who is, incidentally, is known as a Min (pro-Christ heretic). Or was it another Eliezer? "Lazarus, come out!" Am I saying something nonsensical? Because to me it seems that the J-question is younger than the B-question, which calls from ancient Harran. See what I am trying to say? I am not really quite certain my self.. but to consume memes of foreign traditions will surely make one a slave like Eliezer (before he regained his sovereign freedom).

>>20983568
kino schizopost.

that's the catch, really. antisemites are wrong on principle.
it's like a teacher berating a student for not already knowing the things he's taking the course for.
and that's what the Bible shows everywhere, with Daniel in Babylon as an example: God orders him to wish good unto those people, help and whatnot. and he does so, by taking the clothes, babylonian name, everything that isn't bad, while not bowing to their idols, and keeping faithful to God. (Bible Project's "way of the exile" video explains that point nicely).
about the people, how God shows Elijah that even among the idolaters, there are people like the widow who feeds him the last of her food, at her own expense.

hate won't ever convert someone, but people want to feel like they're correct, and what better selfish moral treat than berating someone for being wrong?
you're supposed to show love, and be an example, so that you may show how good what you believe truly is.

show love, be kind, and people will want to know what makes you be so.
be hateful, and they will just hate you and what you stand for.

>>20981300
>I've always been confused by this because Christ is throughout the gospels arguing with Pharisees and other jews about things relating to the Oral Torah and traditional/non scriptural rulings
Sure. Is he arguing with them about the Talmud? No. The Talmud is what radically changed Judaism. Since the Middle Ages Jews have almost entirely put the Bible aside for the Talmud.

Family is pressuring me to get baptized but I cannot for the life of me bring myself to believe in nicene Christianity. I talked to a priest and it didn't do much for me. I am more sympathetic to gnostic beliefs in general. What should I do?

>>20983605
>hate won't ever convert someone, but people want to feel like they're correct, and what better selfish moral treat than berating someone for being wrong?
people do it to conquer their inner slave that wants to dominate another slave to feel oneself a master (in a dialectical way, i.e. a triumphant slave). that's the vulgar understanding of will to power, as Nietzche puts it. to be honest, I don't even want to be right if it implies proving someone wrong. Why? Because that makes a dialectical connection between me and those ''wrong''. Imo, it is not bad to be '''wrong''' -- as in trying to find novel (living) interpretations -- if you are not diminishing others just to confirm a profane ego.
>show love, be kind, and people will want to know what makes you be so.
that's cool, I agree heartily.
>with Daniel in Babylon as an example: God orders him to wish good unto those people, help and whatnot. and he does so, by taking the clothes, babylonian name
The name, you mean 'Belshazzar'? I did not fully understand the Book of Daniel; It is really beautiful and even to my shallow reading feels monumental and awe inspiring. Though, everywhere, when two powers meet, how could you know for certain which one is of God..

>>20983695
Follow the Sacred Heart.

dont modern jews have an entire new holy book?

>>20981411
>>20981334
What is with these crap long posts? Explain HOW it's different, don't just say bro it's very different i promise. Give concrete examples

>>20983702
>The name, you mean 'Belshazzar'?
No, Belshazzar was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, and the prince who saw the writing on the wall in Daniel chapter 5. The babylonian name of Daniel was Belteshazzar. Also funny is the fact that early modern historians completely denied the existence of Belshazzar (who was left in charge of the city of Babylon by Nabonidus) until excavators discovered the Nabonidus Cylinder in 1854 which mentions him.

>>20983717
There is an idea that the true Holy Book is not yet written; permutation of letters as they were given to Moses will be updated with the arrival of the Messiah. If you think about it, it is really a life affirming idea: you should study the wisdom to approach the future in holiness, to reveal the meaning with your own spiritual effort. And I would even add, you should meme, no matter how silly but if you do it in holiness (in honesty) then you are advancing.

>>20983695
Ask away. biggest questions and doubts. could try to help.

>>20983702
>how could you know which one is of God
the one that follows His word and His Law.

for a fun addition, have you went deeper on Daniel 9? prophesizes the date of the Messiah's arrival, 500 years before it happened.

>>20983468
>>20983500
Post nose

>>20983734
funny how it all happens. they deny everything until archaeology proves them wrong. then they move the goalpost.
they used to deny even David existed before some slabs detailing a victory in battle against him were found.

>>20983754
Oh yeah, but Darius the Mede definitely didn't exist according to them, for real this time.

>>20983761
and that one will probably be held onto with everything they can, due to the unquestionable prophecy in Daniel 9 that uses his reign as a marker of time.

>>20983777
>>20983761
why does it even matter if the True God is not historical?

>>20983777
Well in Daniel 8:20-21 you have the unambiguous prediction of what took place over 100 years after Daniel's time. The king of Grecia would completely destroy the domain of the Medes and Persians, then quickly be divided into four parts. So, they have to insist that this then "proves" Daniel was written after these events.

Yet you also have the prophecy of the 483 years from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah comes, so in further consideration they can't get out that easily.

>>20982120
Ever hear of Yeshua ben Yosef, son of God, and King of the Judaeans?

>>20982717
>And he came on a donkey!
Pretty neat callback by this season's writers

>>20983371
>a superficial appearance which is deliberately manufactured as a means of deception
it's turtles all the way down since this is what christers did to the "old" testament

>>20983903
The New and the Old Testament fit together like two intricate parts of a single intended whole, that's why Christ was able to say:

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
- John 5:46-47

>>20983711
Meaning what?
>>20983746
>Ask away
Well, a priest already answered my questions. The main doctrines I can't believe in are original sin (orthodox view but I'm aware of the catholic one, which is worse anyway), evil as privation, that there is only one life then judgment (linear as opposed to cyclical eschatology), that the world is inherently good but fallen, that Jesus is Yahweh (OT-NT continuity), salvation through repentance and the relative unimportance of gnosis (as in knowledge)
But my biggest gripe is the rejection of acosmism and the whole doctrine of original sin and repentance.

>>20983919
>>20983892
yes the writers were really on point with continuity that season, the Mormon writers may have dropped the ball a bit but they were doing a reboot in a new geographic setting and did well with what they had to work with, probably one of the more successful extant sects today

>>20983926
and why don't you believe in those?

>>20981300
Judaism by that point had changed a lot as well.

>>20983926
Honestly, a lot of these just sound like personal gripes you have. Sure, everyone would like to live more than once so they don’t have to worry in this life about Judgment Day. You really have no substantive reason to reject it. It’s not like one is inherently damned when they die though—otherwise praying for the dead and parts of Scripture such as 1 Peter 3:19-20, where it is clear that Christ preached to those who died in the Flood, or how Christ mentions sins that will not be forgiven in this *or the life to come*.

Also, if God is all-good, everything he creates is good. Evil is no more a result of turning one’s will against God. It’s a distortion of said goodness—the Fall explains everything people don’t like in the world. Original sin is merely inheriting the consequences of actions. If we pollute the source of a river, the water that flows after it is filthy as well. The passions and disordered nature we suffer from is a result of pervasive sin in the world. We’re not inherently ‘guilty’ of anything, we are fallen, and God can help us—we can see the results of this work in the saints. If we are sick, they are as closed to cured as we see in this life. Depravity is not inherently our lot.

>Jesus is Yahweh
This one is really obvious. Yahweh tells Abraham that the whole world will be blessed through his offspring, and later promises David to establish his throne forever, and the ruler will be like a son, and he will be like his Father. Daniel sees a vision of one like a son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. This is the same Davidic Messiah that is Jesus. The OT is full of the story of Israel falling from God, and God bringing them back to himself. Jesus does this on a cosmic scale. He is the prophet like Moses that was prophecized in Deuteronomy. He is Yahweh—“God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions” (Psalm 45:7). There is no difference between God in the OT and God in the NT.

>>20983926
We have to remember that God is triune even in the OT. There are many apperances of the Angel of the Lord in the OT that directly refer to this mysterious figure as ‘God’. This was identified by pre-Christian Jews such as Philo with the Logos / the Word. Whenever God appears to people in the OT, it should be understood as the preincarnate Son. This tradition goes back *at least* to St. Justin Martyr in Christianity. This said, God in the OT is the same God. The emphasis differs. God as Judge is the main theme of the OT, as well as his faithfulness to his Covenant. Christ is a deeper self-revelation of God to the world. We go from glory to glory. First the Israelites were taught about the unity of God against pagan teachings, and then we learned of the Father’s Only-begotten Son, and the boundless love of God. God’s steadfast love is revealed all throughout the OT, he is like a husband to his wife, forever trying to draw her back even when the relationship is shattered. This theme is particularly noticeable in Hosea all through the prophets. Even the Psalms are full of praises for God and his steadfast love (Psalm 136, etc.) The ‘mean’ God of the OT is largely a meme. The OT is about man’s struggle to follow God, the NT is about God’s love and how he brings us back to himself in the ultimate sense, and invites us to a closer communion than ever before, just as he promised to dwell among his people in the OT. The core of Jesus’ teaches come from Leviticus and Deuteronomy—love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18) and love God with all your heart (Deut. 6:5).

>>20984064
Because they make absolutely zero sense to me despite the explanations I've received and mostly strike me as post hoc justifications and guilt tripping/fear mongering tactics.
>>20984136
I simply find reincarnation makes more sense. It's also substantiated by more evidence.
>everything he creates
I like the gnostic explanation for this more.
I cannot reconcile omnipotence with the notion of sin. If God is all powerful, he can create an ontology where free will is compatible with the complete impossibility to not do good.
>obvious
I'm aware of the prophecies. But the petty god of the OT is ridiculous compared to the narrative of the NT.
>>20984140
I like Marcion's explanation for this: Yahweh is a legalistic god who judges, Marcion's Father (where Christ comes from) is a God of Good who grants grace.
While "Yahweh is evil" might be overblown somewhat, the overall narrative of the OT does not speak to me. Tribalistic squabbles and the demands of a god who can't enter a city because they ride chariots of iron doesn't speak to me as a grand overarching narrative for the entirety of existence.

>>20984136
>everyone would like to live more than once
not everyone but definitely christers... you have heard of the resurrection of the dead haven't you?

>>20984158
>he can create a world with freedom of choice, where you can't choose.
you see the contradiction here?


read that other anon again. God is not "petty", he's executing pure and rightful judgement. we are spared of it through His love.

>the chariot fedora bit
that one is just blatant misinterpretation. it's just a way of saying those enemies were stronger than the israelites in the military sense.
they would drive out the Canaanites afterwards, if they kept faithful to God. that passage shows they could not do it otherwise.

your struggles seem to stem from not understanding God and His word.
especially the Old Testament.

and you know what's the worst part? if you're so inclined, you can double down and disregard me and what i said as some sort of "fearmongering" or "fanaticism".

>>20984210
>he's executing pure and rightful judgement. we are spared of it through His love
truly the god of despots and emperors—obey me or a greater version of myself will punish you worse than I will

>>20984210
There is no contradiction. This is what omnipotence means. He could've created a world with different rules and chose not to.
>pure and rightful judgment
For acts he's responsible for. A truly Good God would only need grace, not punishment.

>>20983926
>Meaning what?
Get good and get strong (in virtue and also in body (to charge your kin with inspiration mana (Christ essence)). And communicate with the divine through dreams and cryptic shitposting (check out Schelling) following a schizoflow until its logocentric end
and beyond when it bounces back:
Chuckin' with the God in the nowhere's land
Sneed so hard I'm gone fullmode Candyman
posting with my bros, short attention span
I don't believe in speech, so I've chosen spam

building the Temple and it is my body
Berberin better than sussy narcotics
I praise the Lord turning rhymes against semiotics


(sorry man. i really need to slimepost some to get it out my chest you know. or it gets stuck and I get all depressive. and to be depressive is to offend the Divine, as being is a gift and should be honoured. no offence. and I wish you to find what you are looking after.)

>>20984246
you're blaming God for the choices of men?
also no it is not. how can you make a choice if there isn't something to choose? you're just saying God could've just made something illogical.
>>20984241
do you say that of mundane judges and prosecutors? would you rather murderers, thieves, and all criminals just be free and happy, with flowers and sunshine?

and it isn't a "greater version" of Him, or whatever. it is the same God, who loves you enough that He wants to save you from your filth.

if you choose to remain filthy, and even revel in it, what besides punishment would you expect?
a bundle of flowers and blessings, and a note saying "please stop"?

>>20984158
>I cannot reconcile omnipotence with the notion of sin. If God is all powerful, he can create an ontology where free will is compatible with the complete impossibility to not do good.
The impossibility of doing evil isn’t free will. This is absurd on the face of it. God gave us radical freedom to choose him, or not to choose him.

>Yahweh is a legalistic god who judges, Marcion's Father (where Christ comes from) is a God of Good who grants grace.
The Gospels teach that Christ will return to judge everyone in accordance with their works. You’ve set up a false dichotomy. Marcion’s theology makes zero sense. The prophecies the Old Testament alludes to are books like Isaiah, the Psalms, Daniel, etc. Some of the things said about Christ are directly about YHWH that the NT cites. When John the Baptist is said to make straight the patha of the LORD it is referring to YHWH, and John the Baptist, needless to say, prepares the way for Jesus Christ. And again, Jesus’ teachings are right out of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, and have echoes in non-Christian Jews such as Hillel as well. Jesus Christ is inseperable from YHWH, because he is YHWH, the same one that gave the promises to Abraham, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, led his people out of Egypt, gave the Law to Moses, etc. And the entire New Covenant theology is from Jeremiah 31. Marcionism is fundamentally incoherent.

>Tribalistic squabbles
You’re only reading the Bible on the surface level. The Church read it both historically, allegorically, mystically and typologically. As Paul writes, everything in the OT is there to teach us something, and to show us the history of Israel’s struggle to follow God. We are not much different today, turning away, falling into sin, and slavery to it, but God is patient, and loves us, and is faithful even when we are not faithful—this is the theme of the OT. As we see in Hosea, it is like a husband wooing his estranged wife back to himself. God’s love reaches it apex in the NT, but it has always been there. ‘Mean OT God’ is a meme.

>>20984241
If you willingly disconnect yourself from the Source of all that is good, beautiful, truthful, full of life, joy, love, etc. the result is hell. You don’t understand hell. Read St. Symeon the New Theologian, St. Basil the Great, St. Isaac the Syrian, and even Origen, etc.

>>20984595
>God could've just made something illogical.
God predates Logic so yes

>>20985500
Why did Yahweh only appear to some tribes in the desert at first? Why should I convert to what is at its core a jewish religion despite being made open to goyim later?

>>20984595
First of all, flowers come from filth. Secondly, why should I submit to someone who promises to save me from his own shit? He shits. That's what he does. Is he going to stop shitting? The filth is his "creation," I believe you call it? Will God stop being God just for little old me, because I followed your, I mean his, laws?
>>20985527
I am unconvinced that your volcano demon is the source of all that is "good." Maybe Plato's Zeus was thought to be so, but you stealing those arguments and applying them to the tribal war god of some consistently militarily-defeated provincials are a bit tough to digest. This "god" can't even stop Italian immigrant police officers from killing his son.

>>20985500
>faithful even when we are not faithful
Who is "we"? Where is your covenant with this volcano demon? The very texts you cite would consider you worthy of being trampled by him, like some Egyptian or Phillistine.

>>20985965
>Why should I convert to what is at its core a jewish religion despite being made open to goyim later?
That's not what Christianity is and people who say that are zionists and talmudists. The people who today call themselves Jews have nothing to do with the biblical people group of Israel. They've falsified much of what should be common knowledge about Scripture. Our Creator has a purpose for every one of us, He is willing that each one of us should come to the knowledge of the truth. That's why we have been given the gospel of truth, which is God's word. As it says in Scripture, "we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip." And in the Proverbs, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Amen.

>>20986080
>the joos aren't the real joos, we are!
lol, lmao even

>>20986090
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
- Galatians 3:29

Want me to go on?

>>20986091
So you're arguing that you're the real chosen people, and have thus pilpuled them out of their own religion? Isn't that a little... subversive?

>>20986080
>have nothing to do with the biblical people group of Israel.
Neither have I. This is just deflection. Christianity is not intended for me

>>20986107
Well, if you judge yourself unworthy of eternal life then. I sure hope not though.

>>20986114
Not unworthy, Yahweh just has nothing to do with me. He's not my god and didn't reveal himself to me. The idea of a "chosen people" is ridiculous

>>20986122
>Yahweh just has nothing to do with me.
I don't know what that is.

>The idea of a "chosen people" is ridiculous
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1 Pet. 2:9-10)

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:13-14)

>>20986152
Why are you quoting verses at me? It changes nothing. Whether Yahweh changed his mind about the chosen people later on is inconsequential, the fact remains that he has a chosen people to begin with.

It's Judaism without the temple or its priests. You do understand the difference between a pharisee and a sadducee right?

>>20986152
Do you not understand that these verses are addressed to a certain audience that followed a certain religion, and that this context is what gives them any meaning at all? Your religion would not have preserved an "old" set of scriptures to go along with the "new" ones if that context were unimportant.

>>20986174
I have become fully aware of this context, anon. What about you?

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom. 8:29-30)

See also Psalm 102:16-22.

>>20986066
Volcano demon! Well said. A regionally confined demonic entity who feeds on blood sacrifices and demands ritual mutilation as a sign of fealty. A disturbing basis for a faith.

>>20986192
>I have become fully aware of this context, anon. What about you?
I don't believe in the 1.0 of the religion, and 1.1 runs off the same base. Users of 1.1 get all excited when texts from 1.1 relate to 1.0, as if 1.0 has to be believed for 1.1 to work. Well duh, right? Now suppose you have a wooden table and throw a tablecloth—are we supposed to believe that it is no longer a wooden table? That the table no longer exists and has been completed by the tablecloth? Naturally, you aren't going to dispose of the table, because then the tablecloth is useless. But Christianity is our covered table, and christers seem to think they've nothing to do with tables.

>>20986245
Marcion showed it was possible to only have Christ without the jew parts. Unfortunately nicene Christianity went the opposite way.

>>20986245
The Gospel has been with us since the protevangelium. Genesis 3:15. It's all the same faith, from Hebrews 11:4 to 11:40. And same salvation as well. But we're more privileged to know more about what the final plan is.

>Now suppose you have a wooden table and throw a tablecloth—are we supposed to believe that it is no longer a wooden table?
Nah, man, people have it messed up from the very beginning. They still don't get what it's all really about. But its your loss if you decide to neglect so great salvation. At least I didn't hide it from you though.

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;" (Heb. 2:3)

>>20986274
>>20986159

>>20986278
You really want to know why I'm posting verses, anon? Because I'm trying to help you. As it says in Romans 10, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:17).

>>20986288
No I'm talking about the other part of my post

>>20986304
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
- Galatians 3:16

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" - Genesis 22:17

Notice anything here, anon? Maybe something unusual about the way in which this is phrased?

>>20986315
But you're still deflecting. No amount of "yeah but the covenant was extended to goyim" will change the fact that the covenant originally wasn't intended for goyim.

>>20984286
Great post right here, and correct.

>>20986315
Your effort posts are wasted.

>>20986753
Parroting verses hardly counts as effortposting especially when he keeps dodging >>20986320

>>20986758
>>20986320
CHRIST ESSENCE
SNESSENCE SNESSENCE
CHRIST ESSENCE

YES YES YES YES YES

SSSSSNESSENCE

WHAT do you expect
snessence

christ essence space craft

eggship white dwarf

art is also an art

CHRIST ESSENCE:
massage your penul gland, ZARATUSHTRA

>>20986099
>>20986320
Every heard of Cain and Abel?

>>20986828
What about them?

>>20986831
It's a prefiguration of the succession from the Hebrews to the new Israel. The younger takes precedence over the older. It's a recurring theme in the Old Testament.

>>20986850
Okay but why have a chosen people in the first place and why such an irrelevant, barbaric and backwards one?

>>20986850
>It's a prefiguration of the succession
Yes, christers interpret the text of the prior religion as prophecy/allegory/evidence behind the text of their own religion. You must believe in 1.0 to believe in 1.1. No other religion really has this relationship. The problem is that if you read 1.0 it doesn't have to end with 1.1. In fact, 1.0 doesn't really support 1.1 unless you already believe 1.1 and make a rather forced effort, and say things like the Gospel has been there since Genesis ( >>20986274 ). If that's true, why did Yahweh wait thousands of years to have a son on earth who would fix the botched reading? Or is that cope from a people who had been so thoroughly conquered even their religion was starting to sound foreign to them (in the case of the Greek and Aramaic speakers who had dropped Hebrew, this is literally true, not just in terms if doctrines promulgated).

>>20985965
Rahab and her family were non-Israelites and converted. The entire Book of Ruth is about a Moabite converting to worship the God of Israel and marrying into Israel. In the Book of Esther, in 8:17, we see that “many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.” Many of the Edomites were forcibly converted during the time of John Hyrcanus as well. The entire OT is filled with prophecies of Gentiles coming to worship of the God of Israel, and that Israel would be third after Egypt and Assyria (Isaiah 19:24, fulfilled in Christianity)

If you had read the Bible and knew the history of the Israelites, you would know this

>>20986066
>I am unconvinced that your volcano demon is the source of all that is "good."
Personal incredulity is not an argument. The prophecies speak for themselves, as do the centuries of miracles among the saints and Christ’s Church.

>>20986076
>Where is your covenant with this volcano demon?
God made a covenant with Noah, but we also know that the Bible prophecizes a New Covenant and the return of the whole world to the Lord.

Psalm 22:27
>“All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations.”

Malachi 1:11
>For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

Acts 10:34
>So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him“

Jeremiah 31:31-32
>”Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

>>20983800
>why does it even matter if the True God is not historical?

For Christians, the question is one of whether their beliefs are a pious fiction -- well-meaning, perhaps, but not real or true in any meaningful sense.

Versus Christianity being rooted in actual history and thus having some claim to be true, revealed religion, rather than just a faux-sacred game.

>If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith... If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1 Corinthians 15:14, 17

>>20986272
Marcionism was utterly repudiated for centuries prior to Nicaea.

>>20986859
>Okay but why have a chosen people in the first place and why such an irrelevant, barbaric and backwards one?
You should be asking yourself what such a people would be ‘chosen’ for in the first place. The answer is obviously that Jesus Christ will come from their lineage. Israel was held at a higher standard than the nations through the Mosaic covenant, and the Bible records their failures and struggles. Even then, Israel was never exclusively monoethnic, see >>20987163. Also in regards to your question of why God would choose the line of Abraham, the answer is ‘because He can’, who are you to question God’s sovereign will? I imagine it has to do with God wanting to silence those who boast in their worldliness, their wealth, their power, their status—and for the sons of fishermen to preach the Gospel to the nations, so that no one may boast.

>>20986922
>No other religion really has this relationship
Because no other religion has the continuity that Christianity does. It is not a religion, it is, as St. Basil said, ‘the imitation of God’. There is a reason why in the time of Acts it was called ‘the Way’ and not anything else. From the time of Moses, until John wrote Revelation, we have amazing testimony and history of God and his interactions with man, and even beyond the Bible, hundreds of lives of the saints and their experiences with God.

>and make a rather forced effort, and say things like the Gospel has been there since Genesis
This isn’t even a solely Christian interpretation. Genesis 3:15 has been interpreted in a Messianic manner in pre-/non-Christian targum texts such as that of Jonathan Ben Uzziel:
>Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.
http://targum.info/targumic-texts/pentateuchal-targumim/

Non-Christians should not even try to talk about the Bible.

>>20986320
>the covenant originally wasn't intended for goyim.

Ah, but as for that intent -- are you so sure it wasn't really intended for the goyim? After all, it *extended* to the goyim: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." Gen 22:18.

What was implicit became explicit with Christ and was explained by Paul, the first Christian theologian:

>by revelation there was made known to me the mystery... which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Ephesians 3 (see also Colossians 1:15-27)

>>20987300
I have an ambivalent feel about your posting. I will try to pen it down. Okay, so le based Christians are right again and it is literally *BAZINGA* proven by S C I EN CE. (no matter Biblical or archeological) so, basically jus follow the covenant shepards prepared for you because they is your PapiTM, they be thinken about yee. and so on.

Alright, I am communicating that this line of thought to show that it is really not it for winning minds and souls of the gamer race.

From the other hand.. I do love when themes of faith are being discussed. I always get inspired. Wishing that something will happen and these attempts will bring qualitative results, changing the meta itself. But it is always happens so crude, so 'fucking', it is almost as if these matters shuould not be discussed. And something screams YYYY WILL NOT WIN ME FOR YOUR REDDIT COVENANT OF MERCHANTS.

we should be prayng rather
practicing our craft
life is too small to waste is on these brawls
if God doth sneed I firmly shake his hand
if He does not.. I think I'd better keep it

still, need it. My brothers.. why do I feel so offended when in the matters of faith again and again I see those who fight as if tryign to sell something on the marketplace? Perhaps, it is because of anonymity? That prevents many from cherishing and growing. We still hate each other while we should be loving and inspiring.

>>20987163
What is the necessity of a chosen people? Why should I debase myself by basically submitting to another tribe's religion?
>>20987268
>repudiated
Doesn't make it less reasonable. Marcionite Christianity is infinitely more compelling.
>who are you to question
lmao. Don't dare ask questions, just be a good golem. This is why I cannot take your religion, it rewards unquestioning devotion and punishes inquiry.

>>20987300
>are you so sure it wasn't really intended for the goyim?
Stop the mental gymnastics. It was originally for jews and then was extended to the rest. I don't larp as a Hindu, why would I larp as a Jew?

Nicene Christianity hinges on guilt as a foundation: original sin, repentance. You need to be sorry, you need to be forgiven, you need to escape hell, you need an all-loving and infinitely gracious omnipotent being to forgive the transgressions of your ancestors which have been transmitted to you. Personal inquiry is discouraged; personal interpretation is condemned.
Why in the world would I ever follow a religion that is reliant on fear tactics and guilt tripping to make sense?

>>20987190
What do you make of the evidence for reincarnation (Ian Stevenson)? Doesn't count?

Bump

>>20987414
>I have an ambivalent feel about your posting. I will try to pen it down. Okay, so le based Christians are right again and it is literally *BAZINGA* proven by S C I EN CE. (no matter Biblical or archeological) so, basically jus follow the covenant shepards prepared for you because they is your PapiTM, they be thinken about yee. and so on.
>Alright, I am communicating that this line of thought to show that it is really not it for winning minds and souls of the gamer race.
That's a fair point. Tbqf, the Holy Spirit can answer the questions and concerns you have in a way really addresses those issues, and the issues behind the issues, as it were.

>>20987616
>Stop the mental gymnastics.
There are no mental gymnastics in what I wrote. God promised to bless not only Abraham, in Genesis 12:1-3, but to also bless all the families of the earth through him. And in Galatians 3:13-14, Paul relates this blessing as being bestowed upon the Gentiles through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross: "the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Galatians 3.

>>20987650
Nicene Christianity hinges on guilt as a foundation: original sin, repentance...
Why in the world would I ever follow a religion that is reliant on fear tactics and guilt tripping to make sense?

The Nicene Creed makes no mention of original sin or repentance, although those are certainly Christian doctrines. The whole thing turns on the Fall, for which Christ is the remedy. And Christianity turns far more on the positive (pic related) than "fear tactics and guilt tripping," although there will be a final judgment for all of us. That is just an existential fact, and it is not fear mongering any more than the reality of gravity, when you're leaning over the roof of a ten-story building, is a "fear tactic."

>>20987414
>I have an ambivalent feel about your posting. I will try to pen it down. Okay, so le based Christians are right again and it is literally *BAZINGA* proven by S C I EN CE. (no matter Biblical or archeological) so, basically jus follow the covenant shepards prepared for you because they is your PapiTM, they be thinken about yee. and so on.
>Alright, I am communicating that this line of thought to show that it is really not it for winning minds and souls of the gamer race.
That's a fair point. Tbqf, the Holy Spirit can answer the questions and concerns you have in a way that really addresses those issues, and the issues behind the issues, as it were.

>>20987616
>Stop the mental gymnastics.
There are no mental gymnastics in what I wrote. God promised to bless not only Abraham, in Genesis 12:1-3, but to also bless all the families of the earth through him. And in Galatians 3:13-14, Paul relates this blessing as being bestowed upon the Gentiles through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross: "the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Galatians 3.

>>20987650
>Nicene Christianity hinges on guilt as a foundation: original sin, repentance...
>Why in the world would I ever follow a religion that is reliant on fear tactics and guilt tripping to make sense?

The Nicene Creed makes no mention of original sin or repentance, although those are certainly Christian doctrines. The whole Christian religion arises from the Fall, for which Christ is the remedy. And Christianity turns far more on the positive - the spiritual healing brought by Christ (pic related) - than "fear tactics and guilt tripping," although there will indeed be a final judgment for all of us. That is just an existential fact, and it is not fear mongering any more than the reality of gravity, when you're leaning over the roof of a ten-story building, is a "fear tactic."

>>20987414
>I have an ambivalent feel about your posting. I will try to pen it down. Okay, so le based Christians are right again and it is literally *BAZINGA* proven by S C I EN CE. (no matter Biblical or archeological) so, basically jus follow the covenant shepards prepared for you because they is your PapiTM, they be thinken about yee. and so on.
>Alright, I am communicating that this line of thought to show that it is really not it for winning minds and souls of the gamer race.
That's a fair point. Tbqf, the Holy Spirit can answer the questions and concerns you have in a way that really addresses those issues, and the issues behind the issues, as it were.

>>20987616
>Stop the mental gymnastics.
There are no mental gymnastics in what I wrote. God promised to bless not only Abraham, in Genesis 12:1-3, but to also bless all the families of the earth through him. And in Galatians 3:13-14, Paul relates this blessing as being bestowed upon the Gentiles through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross: "the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Galatians 3.

>>20987650
>Nicene Christianity hinges on guilt as a foundation: original sin, repentance...
>Why in the world would I ever follow a religion that is reliant on fear tactics and guilt tripping to make sense?

The Nicene Creed makes no mention of original sin or repentance, although those are certainly Christian doctrines. The whole Christian religion arises from the Fall, for which Christ is the remedy. And Christianity turns far more on the positive - the spiritual healing brought by Christ (pic related) - than "fear tactics and guilt tripping," although there will indeed be a final judgment for all of us. That is just an existential fact, and it is not fear mongering any more than the reality of gravity, when you are leaning over the roof of a ten-story building, is a "fear tactic."

>>20988205
Why/

>>20988663
>Holy Spirit can answer the questions and concerns you have in a way that really addresses those issues, and the issues behind the issues, as it were.
That's cool, thank you. We are looking for ways to understand, to navigate, and even if it's all dark, the Egg rolls in that darkness. And that Egg shining light and shooting lightning bolts: the Holy Ghost, truly. We might have different words and names for what we are intuiting, but that shall not be a problem for honest men.

>>20988663
>>>/his/13946642

>>20988663
>That is just an existential fact,
No, it's a belief.
Anyway, christianity hinges on the idea that you need to repent. It is indeed based on guilt

>>20987290
>Non-Christians should not even try to talk about the Bible.
What is the point of engaging with us infidels then on this cartoon pornography forum? Why don't you crawl off to your safe space if you can't handle skepticism toward your baseless dogmatic assertions? Most of your responses ITT consist of "bible says this," but you've got people who don't believe that premise asking you to explain it, you know, in your own words. It's fine if you can't do this, but that means you can only discuss it with people who already agree with you, which is what you have finally demanded should be the rule for discussing the bible, like the priestly larper you are. So go to church instead

>>20981300
>Shulcan Aruch
>Talmud
>Zohar (Kabbalism)
There was debate prior to WW1 as to whether staying in exile is obliged (or if a reinstitution of the homeland as a nation state could force prophecy). That flipped radically. Old Testament is as irrelevant as the Hadith is to the Koran, for practical belief and practice continuity was broken with the temple's destruction(s) and extirpation of priest class; what you get now are a bunch of para-pagans with Edom/Babylonian Exiles' 'Tradition of the Elders'. It's completely compromised and can only be sustained without 'reform' (lol Jesus) in a state of permanent martial law against hostile Arab countries; demographic structure will only worsen this, Hasidim welfare queens breeding like rats and such vs. moderate/secular.