/lit/ - Literature

>>20980751
I will anon . After im done with french , cant wait to read the divine comedy

>>20980751
Because Italians have nothing worth learning.

>>20982223
Please tell me you are french, they are the only one that can say this bs without looking like they are illiterate idiots

>>20982223
>>20982237
The fight between French and Italians is one of the most productive forces in the world.

>>20980751
I'm Italian :)

I'd like to. I'm learning French at the moment and after that I'd like to try Spanish or Italian. I think I'd rather learn Italian but Spanish might be more pragmatic. Wouldn't mind learning Latin either but that's more of a struggle and commitment.

>>20980751
Bufalino, Gadda, Manganelli, Campo, Landolfi, ecc.
basato

i'm reading the poetic translation of the Psalms done by David Maria Turoldo with the help of Cardinale Gianfranco Ravasi, very good, gave me a deeper vision of the Psalms

>>20980751
Im italian and ive read just one of them
How fuxked i am?

Phoneposting

>>20980751
what italian lit is worth reading besides calvino and leopardi

>>20983284
>phoneposting

Basato e Bene-pillolato

>>20983303
Pavese and Vittorini.

>>20983303
Personally I love primo levi sci fi (has a style of his own, but shares something with Calvino)
Some buzzati
Some Pirandello
Svevo - coscienza di Zeno

>>20983326
I forgot to add pavese
What you suggest from vittorini?

>>20983303
Mario Benedetti
Antonio Di Benedetto
Ernesto Sabato
Osvaldo Lamborghini
Hector Agosti
Rafael Alberti

>>20983340
I liked Conversazione in Sicilia a mot, but then again I'm a Straub-head so maybe I'm biased (Straub/Huillet adapted some of Pavese's and Vittorini's books as films).
Uomini e no was also p good.

I want to but as beautiful as it is it also drives me insane with all of the vowels and their usage, and the up and down manner of speaking.
Maybe I will go back to it. Resources besides just reading kids' books until you get better? Or immersion is best?

>>20980751
The great thing about Italian is that is a really good language for translations. For now the only poem I found that doesn't sound good in Italian is La Belle Dame sans Merci by Keats

>>20980751
sei molto basato, non è la prima volta che posti una lista simile, sentiti responsabile di avermi fatto leggere Q di Luther Blisset e Gadda.
Ora però prendì l'indu-pillola e leggiti Calasso

>>20983187
nigger

>>20980751
Italian sounds beautiful, but it's not worth learning, all the important books already have a translation, so why bother? Learn french instead, it sounds beautiful AND is very practical, more than italian so

>>20980751
I started learning French. And I might honestly, my favorite contemporary writer is Italian.

>>20986286
>all the important books already have a translation
That's exactly where you get it wrong. It's the other way around. Take the 20th century: Pirandello, Svevo, Calvino, Eco, Buzzati and a few others are translated, but they're far from being the best ones. D'Arrigo, Bufalino, Consolo, Gadda, Manganelli, Prato and the poets are the actual peaks of Italian literature.

>>20980751
whya learna italiana whena youa cana justa talka likea thisa anda peoplea willa saya heya anona area youa italiana? anda youa cana saya yesa thata isa truea

>>20980751
I'm learning German right now but Italian is next on my list.

>>20983269
Very based. All the Italians who worked on the Bible in the 20th century ended up making masterworks.

Sergio Quinzio --> Majestic Comment to the Bible
Primo Vannuteli --> Synopsis of the Gospels
Giovanni Papini --> Life of Christ, a top-tier literary work
Emilio Villa --> One of the most truthful translations of the Bible
Carlo Maria Martini --> All the comments to the Gospels
etc.

>>20980751
Am I loosing that much by reading translations to other Latin languages? (Portuguese)

>>20987165
No, you aren't, Portuguese and Italian are extremely similar. The thread is more meant for Anglos, Scandinavians, Germans, etc. However there are still many books that I doubt are translated. Speaking of philosophy, does Portugal have any editions of Severino, Giorgio Colli or Andrea Emo? (Emo is impossible to find even in Italy, and yet was a genius).

>>20987125
good point

>>20987125
>>20987410
There are 5 vowels in Italian, A E I O U, and the 99,99% of words end with one of the first four. A for singular feminine, E for plural feminine, I for plural masculine, O for singular masculine. Get help if you can't grasp such a simple fonetic system.

Did you really have to post two of these Italian threads today?

>>20987458
Or you could just not have grammatical gender because it does fuck all except filter retards. At least you aren't as bad as the Slavs or something, but Christ.

>>20987507
I don't get the issue

>>20987521
Why-a do-a you-a think-a everyone-a make-a fun-a how-a you-a speak-a?

>>20980751
Because only Italians and a snall part of Switzerland speak it (and even then pretty much every part of Italy has its own unique dialect so really at most you'll be understood but not always understand.) The academic and artistic reservoirs of german and french are far greater. I'm actually still learning because it would make my Nonna happy and I like Evola.

>search up some film clip flash cards
>play audio
>2 sec long whinge
>They somehow said two complex sentences
You can learn this power?
It's one of the most popular ones on anki.

>>20987531
The way Italians speak sounds funny only to Anglos and people who speak a Germanic language. The vowel at the end of the words (which is not pronounced with the same emphasis that foreigners give, out of ignorance) donates musicality and sweetness to the language. Do you want an in-depth example of what I mean? Okay.

I'll take the first quatrain of the Sonnet "To the Muse" by Ugo Foscolo:

Pur tu copia versavi alma di canto
su le mie labbra un tempo, Aonia Diva,
quando dè miei fiorenti anni fuggiva
la stagion prima, e dietro erale intanto

Every time a vowel at the end of a word meets a vowel at the beginning of the following word, the sounds are pronounced with one voice emission. It's only one breath. No consonants blocking the "singing" in the middle. (And the "singing" is made by vowels, not by consonants, which are mute by nature). So it becomes:

Pur tu copia versavi__alma di canto
su le mie labbra__un tempo__Aonia Diva,
quando dè miei fiorenti__anni fuggiva
la stagion prima__e dietro__erale__intanto

The underscores I put mean that those parts of the verses are to be pronunced with continuity. They are joints, connections, bonds, bridges between words. It doesn't matter what you think, but this is exactly how music works. Continuity between natural sounds.

On the other hand, languages such as Latin, English and German are not as beautiful as Italian when it comes to poetry, exactly because they're too full of consonants. The more consonants you put in your speech, the more it sounds like you're spitting and babbling. Vowels, especially at the beginnning and at the end of the words, consitute the essence of beauty in a language.

>>20987538
>The academic and artistic reservoirs of german and french are far greater.
The whole point of these threads is to shed light on the fact that the rest of the world is extremely ignorant on "the academic and artistic reservoirs" of Italy. Italy is not a country devoted to cultural colonialism in the way France, UK and US are. Most of Italians don't give a fuck if a great writer is famous abroad, they just read it. Same with music: all Italians, regardless of their age, know that Fabrizio De André is infinitely superior to that pathetic jewish jongleur who won the Noble Prize, but they don't care.

And yet, you failed to grasp the point.

>>20987611
The point that is why people aren't learning Italian? I think i got it.

>>20987594
>Only sounds funny to Anglos
You should try living in Asia. Even monolinguals from bumfuck Anhui knew Italian stereotypes when I was living there. 'Musicality' is just a cope. Cantonese speakers use exactly the same line in defense of their dumb dialect over standard Chinese.

>>20987594
German is far more beautiful than Italian when it comes to poetry lmao
The Germans at least have a soul, and some piety.

>>20987183
Sorry, no ideia, I don’t really read philosophy

>>20987781
>>20987183
And thanks for your answer

>>20987751
Literally no one ever said this except you

>>20987883
It is not hard to feel this way when visiting Rome as a believer

>>20987898
You confuse the sentiment you have when confronted with a different culture then your own, for a proof that this culture lacks piety(and push your notion further, a lack of humanity). Very German, brutish Nazi way of thinking.

>>20983370
>rafael alberti
He’s Spanish, you retard

>>20987883
I'll second him

>>20986286
why not both? im 19 months into french which i agree is stunning and with all the transferale vocabulary , grammar it would take less than half the effort . If you use anki and after the 1000 most common words start immediately reading

>Verification not required

>>20987594
>On the other hand, languages such as Latin, English and German are not as beautiful as Italian when it comes to poetry, exactly because they're too full of consonants. The more consonants you put in your speech, the more it sounds like you're spitting and babbling. Vowels, especially at the beginnning and at the end of the words, consitute the essence of beauty in a language.
you're like one of those faggot niggas that liked southern rap because it sounds pretty while all the real niggas were spiting deep lyrical shit on the east coast

>>20987625
>>20987699
>>20989037
I am talking with three retards who will pronounce "Milano" as "MilanOOH", when it's literally "Milan(o)". This says all.

>>20982223
Spbp

Perché io lo già conosco.

>>20989399
I still didn't miss the point about what I'm saying.

>>20990020
And what are you saying?

>>20980751
>Why aren't you learning Italian
I would rather learn Spanish.

>>20990059
Do it, it's also good.

>>20990041
That people learning a language are more likely to want to choose French or German over Italian because there is a wuder amount of resources and material of artistic and intellectual merit. I didn't say anything about whether the Italian works are of quality (and again I'm literally learning it) because that is not relevant. There is simply more in french and german and they have a larger userbase so of course people would choose them over Italian when deciding. You missed the point by seething about Italiancs hidden gems, completely misreading what I said.

>>20990077
Thatcs why people aren't learning Italian. You tend to need a less secular reason such as family to choose it over another.

>>20990077
I don't have to read what you said more carefully than I did. You said that German and French literatures have more to offer, a claim which I firmly refute as false.

>>20987507
you say this as if filtering retards isn't a desirable trait for a language.
>>20990077
the reason for german and french being popular is simply because both countries were colonial powers. Even now they are destinations for economic migration thanks to the stranglehold they have on EU members. People learn languages to open up their options, not because of Spengler or Heidegger or whatever have you. With French I can kind of understand your point at least because hey, lingua franca, but again it's really not a matter of people picking up languages because they're stacking up artistic and historical patrimonies.

>>20990092
There is more of it. They have more to offer. Fuck you, that's math.

>>20990114
It's not. It's bias. Do you think 8 millions people more in France implies there is more French literature worth reading?

>>20990125
Therecs literature worth reading in every language. There are great authors in every language. A larger language userbase and database increases the amount of material worth learning the language for. Yes. There is more French Literature worth reading than Italian literature worth reading because there is more French literature in general than Italian literature. Again, math.

>>20990148
>>20990114
And again, you miss my point because you're ibsessed with Italian being most value-dense language.

>>20990148
The ratio of material worth reading in Italian would have to be monstrously higher than French's factoring in speakerbase and database sizes for your argument to be the case. And that could only really be off a result of Italy being a radically different culture by an incredible distinction. It is not so the chances of Italian actually having more worth learning the language for than French is low. Logic and common sense. Italian is a beautiful language of artistic and intellectual merit but for someone with no strong connection to it specifically, they will choose french over it 9/10 times.

>>20983477
>all of the vowels
>five vowels
>being this retarded

I will pray for you, Anon.

>>20990148
>>20990156
I know I am speaking with an autist (not in the ironic internet-based usage of the word, but in the literal sense of the word) but I will give you my last two cents. I repeat, and I repeat again, that these threads are generated from the fact that the vast majority of cultured people, both here (where there are very few cultured people, but still) and outside, are always ready to mention and to refer to French, English and German authors, in any field. Italians are never mentioned. Narrative realism? French authors. Modern philosophy? All Germans. Contemporary philosophy? All in English. Continental philosophy? Only French. Romantic poetry? British poets. Decadentism? French authors. Modernism? English, German, French. Postmodernism? American novelists. And so on. Sometimes there's a Russian name, and that's all. Literature is finished. Boundary reached. Where are the Italian ones? Not a single person here is trying to say that Italy is superior, it's not a manly hard-dick fight between nations. We're way beyond that idiocy. The point is that the Italian authors, who cover all of those literary categories that I've just mentioned, are completely unknown of ignored. Was it fair, I wouldn't speak. But since it's objectively unjust, Italians are proud to recommend something from their canon. Is this evil? Is this something that makes you want to attack the Italian language and the Italian culture? Or would you rather learn that Modern philosophy also had Vico, Galluppi, and that Idealism was also widespread outside of Germany through Croce and Gentile? Would you rather learn once and for all that Leopardi, in addition to being an exquisite Romantic poet, also expressed the same ideas that Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Schopenhauer would express, but before all of them? Would you rather learn that Manzoni was an excellent realist novelist, Verga the Mediterranean equivalent of Zola, and Nievo and De Roberto two magistral historical novelists? Would you rather learn that if France had Proust, Austria Broch, England Woolf, Ireland Joyce, America Faulkner, Italy had not only Svevo, but especially Gadda, who embodies the whole essence of Modernism? Would you rather know that the Italian Decadentism existed, and had its names in D'Annunzio, Pascoli, Fogazzaro, Rovani, Dossi, and in the whole pre-avanguardia known as the Scapigliatura? Would you rather be aware that the 20th century was enriched also by philosophers of the calibre of Giorgio Colli, Emanuele Severino, Giorgio Agamben, Andrea Emo, Gianni Vattimo, Massimo Cacciari, Ernesto Buonaiuti and not just Heidegger, Deleuze, Heidegger, Deleuze, Heidegger, Deleuze? Would you rather learn that there is an Italian postmodernism, which is extremely rich, and counts names such as D'Arrigo, who wrote a 1400 pages novel on the dolphins of Sicily, Alberto Arbasino, Vincenzo Consolo, Gesualdo Bufalino, Anna Maria Ortese, Dolores Prato, and not just Eco and Calvino? etc. [space finished]

>>20990306
>wordswordswords
My misdiagnosis was officialised.

>>20990111
>german
>colonial power
The handful of acres they owned in Africa at the ass-end of colonialism aren't why it's more popular

I have Foucault's Pendulum and The Name of the Rose but I haven't read them. Which one should I read first?

>>20990346
There is also a cultural colonialism, such as the kind pursued by UK and US. But yeah, you're right that Germany is not appreciated because of a colonialist influence. They just had a splendid personal renaissance with dozens of geniuses in music and philosophy all of a sudden.

>>20990346
fair enough! I misspoke. But we can admit that Germany is one of the main exponents of "post"colonial politics of importing 3rd worlders for the sake of boosting domestic economy, right? And we can admit that the main reason any given person is learning German is because Germany has a vice grip on the EU and right now are the beneficiaries of brain drain from across the EU and beyond. When I was referring to colonialism I meant not only the colonies but also the policies that resulted from that era.
(Also, the partition of Poland qualifies as a major event in colonial history).
I'm sure there is a minority of people who are learning German because they're nazis or because they're super into german idealism, but most people learn extra languages for economic reasons.

>>20990228
I'm talking about the sheer amount of vowels within a given word when compared to English. Sorry if that didn't come across well, but you don't have to be rude.

>>20990347
Name of the rose is more accessible I'd say and could possibly be enjoyed as just an historical crime fiction. Movie is alright too
If you like it you should eventually check out Q by Luther blysset since I feel there are enough (superficial) similarities, being a spoof of spy fiction set in the middle ages during religious persecutions

>>20987538
and even then pretty much every part of Italy has its own unique dialect so really at most you'll be understood but not always understand

Kek
The absolute ignoramus

>>20980751
L'Italia nella sua infinita bellezza non necessita di espansioni, non ha desiderio di convincere altri del suo essere. Semplicemente esiste in uno stato di grandezza interiore, la sua lingua fluida e sonante nata da poesie divine, la sua arte perfezionata da secoli di lavoro e la sua scrittura avanzata oltre ogni misura.
L'uomo italiano non si cura neanche troppo di questa bellezza suprema, semplicemente la vive, nel suo camminare calcia via un sasso che ha 2450 anni di storia creato da civiltà passate come se fosse nulla, perché ve ne sono altri migliaia di più belli attorno a lui.
Infatti è risaputo che se il barbaro americano avesse anche solo una parte percentuale del patrimonio italico sul suo territorio egli si nutrirebbe del turismo ed ego derivato da esso fino alla fine dei tempi. Al contrario l'uomo italico non necessita di nulla più che essere circondato da essa in ogni momento per respirarla e farla parte di se. Una persona che non vive in questa nazione non può semplicemente capire cosa significa essere benedetti.

>>20991028
Please btfo me so I nay understand.
>>20987538
Just to clarify 'far greater' refers to the function of reservoirs to hold so I specifically meant greater size, nothing about the subjective 'greater quality'.

Because I'm too busy with modern and classical Chinese, Japanese, and Sanskrit.

>>20987158
i'm reading some esercizi spirituali by Carlo Maria Martini, will search about the others, thanks anon

I sense a disconcerting lack of based svevo