/lit/ - Literature

>>20964828
human nature, your autism need not apply to the not understanding tragedy position cause youre already the chair of the department

>>20964828
Why do you think bros before hoes even became a saying?

>>20964833
Not an argument

>>20964828
Why do gangsters kill each other and end up in jail for 30 years - over petty acts of 'disrespeck'?
The same mentality is what 'honour' means when referring to warrior aristocracies.
> Extreme sensitivity to insult
> Violent over-reaction
Remember, this is a mythologised account (and perhaps remembrance) of the culture of bronze age Hellenes by their descendents a few generations later.
Your questions are valid; but the answer lies in the fact that this is not a story by, or about, modern civilised people.

>>20964828

Said "one lass" was the Queen of Sparta, and that cunt Paris was too much of a pussy to do the honorable thing and duel Menelaus without pussing out and being spirited away by Aphrodite, which he could get away with because said cunt was a Prince of Troy with divine favor.

Fuck Paris. Hector should've slit his throat in his sleep.

>>20964828
>Why didn't Achilles quit being so angry?
Because losing briseis wasn't about pride, it was about timē.
>Why didn't Agamemnon compromise?
Because he is a bad leader. If he were a good leader the Iliad would be much less interesting, don't you think?
>Why start a war over literally one lass?
They didn't. Menelaus made a pact with the other Greek kings to always come to each others aid (That's not in the Iliad itself but in the supporting myths). The war is a consequence of politics more than menelaus' personal interests. It could have been started over anything.

>>20964922
is it being extremely sensitive to oppose the covetous desires of an unjust, probably psychopathic ruler?
is it an over-reaction to impart justice upon the murderer of your most beloved one?
>this is not a story by, or about, modern civilised people.
our degenerate, mindbroken civilization is the foulest of turds compared to the hellenes'

>>20964828
>I didn't get it
You're retarded, sorry.

>>20964828
>Why start a war over literally one lass?
It was a loli

>>20964985
Achilles' most beloved one (I assume you refer to Patroclus) wasn't 'murdered', he was killed in battle. Achilles rage is obviously driven in part by guilt (Patroclus faced Hector because Achilles would not). But its absolutely an overreaction. Not killing Hector (an enemy in war), but dragging his body around the city the way he did.
Bear in mind that the story attributes these extreme acts to a kind of divinely inflicted madness, as though the characters have no free will - which is likely how the ancient Greeks saw human nature.
As for Agamemnon being unjust or psychopathic - by what standard? Attacking a city to kill or enslave all its people is pretty beyond the pale - by our standard.

>>20965005
Human beings have no free will.

>>20964985
Yes let's return to barbarism so we can be "real men" moron

>>20964828
>what is a casus belli

>>20964922
>>20964978
This actually clears things up, thanks

>>20965000
Helene was married so I doubt that

>>20964828
>Why didn't Achilles quit being so angry?

Because Agamemnon violated the principle of Xenia (guest-friendship) and by doing so dishonoured Achilles.

>Why didn't Agamemnon compromise?

It was the king's prerogative to take and distribute what was plundered in war, unless otherwise stated.
There are a number of instances in the Greeks' history where soldiers need to be explicitly permitted, by the king, to "loot" cities and surrounding areas and possess the property therein.
There was an underlying assumption that the loot or property was the kings by right of conquest (which has also been the case in wars generally until very recently).
So to answer your question: Technically Achilles was not entitled to the priestess.
One could also say that there's arguably a grey area between a king's general privilege vs. a warrior's potential right to be honoured by the king for their personal excellence (arete) and brave conduct in battle.
It's up to the reader to come to their own conclusions.

>Why start a war over literally one lass?

It was a violation of the principle of Xenia, as above. In this instance, it was Menelaus who was offended.
There also seemed to be a desire of finding an excuse to go to war against the Trojans.
Also, I guess one could argue that the gods caused it after the judgement of Paris, but that probably isn't a very satisfying answer.

>>20965059
No, let's be civilized and consume cuckporn and cut little kids penises while giant dudes go on drag bashing and raping real women.
Fuck you faggot.

>>20965005
>unjust
Book I of the Iliad explains this
>psychopathic
Iphigenia

>>20965059
now that's a good goy!

>>20964828
You clearly have never fantasized about committing genocide because a girl didn't like you. Achilles is intensely relatable.

>>20964922
Did you also watch that lecture about the contemporary relevance of the Iliad on YouTube?

>>20965128
No. I studied classics (many) years ago, as well as European history generally over my adult life.

>>20965132
Sorry to hear that

>>20964828
>Why start a war over literally one lass?
Achean throne was secured matrillineally, so Helen was a must.

>>20964828
>Why didn't Achilles quit being so angry?
legit reasons and understanding that he is on top. also the hero's ego that is always on the very tip of a blade and at any moment can fall into delusion, grandeur or supremacy mentality at the expense of others
>Why didn't Agamemnon compromise?
why would the king show any sign of weakness or compromise? A king never bows especially in the middle of a war where everyone only looks up to him
>Why start a war over literally one lass?
that was just the practical reason. the truth is involves the gods, their inflated egos, the deimos tragic destiny, feelings such as lust, revenge, jealousy, love and not to mention the need to write themselves into history itself

>>20964828
>Why didn't Achilles quit being so angry?
1. Achilles is demi-godlike, all his emotions are larger than life, and that includes his anger (wrath, literally the first line of the entire poem). Just like angering say Poseidon, you don't want to anger Achilles because he won't forget it.
2. Agamemnon tried to cuck him, the greatest of Greek warriors. If he stopped being angry, he'd be admitting that Agamemnon is bigger than him and can order him around. Besides, he's only at Troy as a favour to Agamemnon and the other Greeks, it's not like he really wants to be there. Achilles came because he was honour-bound by alliance, and now the leader of the Greeks is shitting on his honour. Deal over.
>Why didn't Agamemnon compromise?
He thinks Achilles is trying to usurp his authority. Sure Achilles is the greatest of Greek warriors, but if Agamemnon coddles him then his authority is shot. Ajax, Odysseus and others might decide to try and overrule him and boss him around. The expedition could collapse. Just like in sports, if the team coach has a star player, you can't let him ride roughshod over the coach and the team even if he is the most talented.
>Why start a war over literally one lass?
If this is referring to Helen, it's because Paris (and the Trojans who protected him) violated the most sacred Greek value, that of hospitality. A guest, invited to stay with a host's house, doesn't kidnap his host's women and steal his property (Paris also stole property from Menelaus too). That's fucking piracy. In a world without a police force the only way to make sure strangers don't kill and rape you is with these codes of conduct.

>>20964953
>that cunt Paris was too much of a pussy to do the honorable thing and duel Menelaus without pussing out and being spirited away by Aphrodite
I like how when Aphrodite puts him on the bed Helen starts nagging him and Paris is like "Hey, babe, stop that, lets fuuuuuck"

>>20965805
I hate men.

>>20965112
Based
>>20964828
>why didn't Achilles just stop being mad?
The man had his women stolen in front of everyone and he was fully capable of beating the shit out of the guy who did it but was prevented from doing so by the gods. You would be angry too.

>>20964828
Like many other Greek stories, preventable tragedies are often forced on men by forces beyond their control conspiring to bring them to ruin.

>>20964828
They were bricked up

>>20964878
you just proved my point. people are not rational, least of all you

>>20964828
At one point Agamemnon tried to give presents to Achilles, plus formally apologize, he even promised one of his daughters in marriage to him but Achilles was such a little bitch that he didn't accept it; it was a question of honor he couldn't learn his place so he literally made his own mother plea to Zeus to bring ruin in war to the greeks, Zeus obliged of course. He wanted Agamemnon and his troops to fail. Also, the conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles is also over a lass, pussy was highly valued I guess

>>20965805
>that cunt Paris was too much of a pussy to do the needful*
fixed

>>20964828
I finished the Iliad and the story dosent end there. We never get to see Troy fall, or Achilles' prophesied death in the hands of Paris and Apollo. Does the Odyssey start from where Iliad left off? Or is there a time gap with events skipped

>>20967952
All of that stuff is in the Aeneid I think, read all of Homer and skip to that

>>20964828
it's a story of human folly, pride and mortality
combine the three and you get autism

>>20964922
>Extreme sensitivity to insult
>Violent over-reaction
more like extreme honor-culture and the one being insulted being a king

>>20965585
Good, clear explanation of the power dynamics.

>>20967952
The Odyssey is 10 years after the fall of Troy but some of the past events are recalled in it, like the horse and what happened after.

>>20967293
>pussy was highly valued I guess
Helen and Briseis were pre-teens

>>20968262
They were teen valley girls, perfectly legal

>>20968262
something something PRIME

>>20968262
>suddenly the poem makes sense
damn....

>>20968262
"Achilles: Fuck Briseis, there are a lot of fish in the water. Or should I say there is a lot of cunnies in the water, did you hear that Patroclus?"
Patroclus: Sir, are you sure? She's like good old whiskey: 12 years old
Aquiles: AGAMEMNOOONNNN!!! MY HONOUR!!

>>20964833
Fpbp

>>20964828
What's not to get?