/lit/ - Literature

>a failed serf state
They rightly predicted its fall. Would you prefer the to have been wrong?

>>20915339
>their worldview is anti-progress
So?

>>20915339
Their untranslated prose is really that good? But yeah, I agree. I used to worship these guys, especially Tolstoy, for their penetration into the human experience and clarity of expression, but now I find them and all fiction unnecessary and antiquated.

>I feel like their worldview is defeatist and counter to progress

Progress isn't always a good thing.

>>20915339
Are you saying he wasn't 100% prescient in his cynicism? Have you met Russia's 20th century?

>>20915423
>I find them and all fiction unnecessary and antiquated.

There's no such thing as non-fiction. All works are written from the distorted perception of the writer, whether he realises it or not.

>>20915436
Your image doesn’t prove anything

>>20915393
Dostoevsky had no idea what would happen. He correctly predicted the Bolshevik menace but his political affiliations were with reactionaries who did not ever bother implementing reforms until it was way too late (1905).

Tolstoy dallied around with pointless school projects and farm utopias. He did have valuable contribution through non-violent resistance concept.

>>20915400
So each narrative seems to retreat from the world at large and completely ignores its issues to the point of contradicting itself. Like the volatile characters with their inner turmoil,especially in, say, Brothers Karamazov and War and Peace where they change so definitely and consistently as soon as circumstances change that everyone becomes mentally apoplectic. My main draw from Karamazovs was closing the book and thinking "man, I bet that if he wrote a 100 pages more everyone's stances would switch around back again".

Tolstoy's view of history is swirling around the drain, he meshes patriotism while stepping carefully around the issue of a failed slave state that is already one century behind Britain in developing gentry, shitting on Napoleon every chance he gets while being subservient to the Tzar who is a giant parasite so since he cannot extoll much positivity from his country he goes back to legitimate grievances (invasion) but then he has to retreat into patriotism which is just a neverending cyclical pointless war-rant that then also, by the virtue of being self-conscious introduces moral relativism to the proceedings since as soon as you stop and think about it, all that jingoism just fuels more carnage. Plus he has a scene where Andrei is translating Napoleonic Codex and no one cares to implement any of it. It's weird.

>>20915425
Yeah but Dostoevsky started as a Decembrist and then got Gulag'd, came back as a Christfag which is not bad in itself but he then developed this reactionary streak that stopped thinking about what to change within Russia itself and instead went into the psyche of his characters, a total retreat into moral values which are great until you realize how much Russia lost because it abstained from any sort of industrialization and market economy. I know both Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are humanists, but they can't do much more than state the social order in order to plot a scene.

>>20915434
Read about these retards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pochvennichestvo - you have a lot info about their negative influences in the first volume of Stephen Kotkin's Stalin bio.

I always think what would Dostoevsky's commentary on the Battle of Tsushima be, if he would even register it among all the incense smoke.

>>20915436
That's not where the divide between the two comes from. It's more about intention and expectation.

>>20915438
>>20915453
Think about how much more we know about the world compared to the Byzantines 1000 years ago, and imagine how much more knowledgeable humans will be 1000 years from now. Most of what we consider to be true in regards to history or science will be obsolete.

>>20915339
Understand anon your looking into a lost period, all be it a perceived version of what it looked like, but a version none the less. As you see it, a sort of sickly romantic version of aristocracy, but do have some understanding from their perspective. Fiction is quite a useful tool to see into someone's world-view, and can be used to contrast with ours. learn how to enjoy negative emotions and try to at least be a bit understanding.

>>20915467
I find a lot of parallel with current Russian false autarky and Dostoevsky being once again co-opted by the glowie mystics.

>>20915462
Again, dedication to factual truth is not what differentiates fiction from non-fiction. This is evident in non-fiction work like Penseés or the Essays of Montaigne.

>>20915467
Maybe a sickly version of perennialism since everything societal always takes a backdrop to development of characters which become some sort of philosopher-kings over their inherited rural domains etc.

you know anon, this post reads a whole lot like you are a fucking loser projecting onto authors you read

I had to look up "netorare concept" to figure out what the hell you are even talking about, and apparently its a genre of cuckold anime? how the fuck do you even know this niche anime lingo for cuckold anime? i would bet my life savings that you are a feminine shut in loser who watches too much anime and projects it onto everything

>>20915482
see, normalfag, not my fault smartphones deteriorated the quality of online discussion so much that i have to deal with retards who have to google what netorare is while posting on 4chan

>>20915482
>>20915339
>book depicts basic human emotions and social phenomena
>WOWWEE THIS IS JUST LIKE ONE OF MY JAPANESE ANIMES

>>20915446
They both accurately painted a picture of the times. You seem to want them to lie and make characters who simply didn't exist at the time.

>>20915496
eh, it was more to say it's very genre trop-ish, and charming and borderline caricaturish but i guess it triggered a crowd that will now dump the topic.

>>20915504
I was just describing the dismal feeling I get when reading some of it. As for the characters, it's all about writer's reach. That's why Dostoevsky's hovels are more interesting than Count Tolstoy's villages.

>>20915509
>dismal feeling
Then they were successful in making you feel how they felt.

>>20915514
You weren't reading my thoughts correctly then. It's not a dismal feeling I get only when they invoke it, through inner turmoil or the tragedy of battles, but perhaps something that I get in the terms of particular scope of a certain novel, the overall worldview and its limitations - I obviously cannot say that they should've written plots centered around modernization of Russia when there was still time to create a resilient, reformed economy that would simply brush away Bolsheviks, but I believe it's legitimate to adopt a certain malady after the fact.

>>20915526
I don't quite understand what you're saying. Putting it simply, you don't like that they were wrong (in your view)?

>>20915339
Was Tolstoy/Dostoyevsky always a talking point in /lit/ or is it just the current flavor of the month fad?

I only started visiting this year after rnadomly getting into them when I decided to charge my kindle and saw I had a couple of their books on there and really got into them.

Now I'm wondering if I had been memed or social media influenced into getting into their content

>>20915550
They are two of the most famous writers of all time.

>>20915550
As long as I have been here (~9 years) they've been a staple.

>>20915541
No, I'm not talking about their judgments though I think Dostoevsky was a political idiot. I just started viewing their works as a bit too reactionary for my tastes despite me being far from conservative.

I'm also very interested in their style but I'm too tired to go into it right now, especially those "anime" scenes - or rather scenes that would easily be transported into any type of soap opera setting, like the Rostov girl squad or Mitya's trial.
>>20915550
Are two of the greatest writers ever being memed on a /lit/ board

>>20915462
We have regressed in intellectual nuance and self-awareness. We will regress further.

>>20915560
Ah, fair enough. You might find some other less reactionary Russian authors to be more to your taste.

When I read Dostoyevsky, I don't really think too much about any political statements or Dostoy's worldview. I read his books because of the characters and the stories that are weaved around their psyches.

>>20915509
>wow this 150 year old novel feels a little genre trop-ish in the context of my exposure to japanese animes

a scathing critique of 19th century realism

>>20915594
I feel like Dostoevsky and Tolstoy are often liked for the wrong reasons. Lot of conservatives jerk off to their depiction of aristocratic life, or Christian mysticism or the debate whether Slavic Soul is superior to the Auto-da-fe'd Western one, but a writer can't choose his readers.

About Dostoevsky - while characters (and even a city can be a characters) are central, some of his best work is developed around his political philosophy, which is more or less infantile but he wraps it into incredibly deep insights about human psyche so it's barely noticeable. For example, I thought that the caricature of town bumpkins in Demons and especially Turgenev was rather weak, but he more than made up for it with visionary passages about proto-Bolsheviks and the inner tribulations of the characters.

>>20915600
Both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy step away from realism from time to time for stylistic effect; Tolstoy even has Bezukhov blush during a fucking masonic lodge meeting. That's what makes their insights so powerful, they often create a shallow backdrop of a salon or a family gathering which is not always there for the purpose of social critique.

>>20915600
>in the context of my exposure to japanese animes

Which is perfectly legitimate since it's an art form I've been exposed to and can relate to some of the elements of their style and characterizations. It's perfectly legitimate to contrast War and Peace with Legend of Galactic Heroes, why not? Dostoevsky developed much of his style being literally chained to the New Testament.

>>20915560
>I think Dostoevsky was a political idiot

Devils was incredibly prescient about 20th century Russian politics.

>>20915609
>Tolstoy even has Bezukhov blush during a fucking masonic lodge meeting
so?

>>20915609
Why even give thought to what others think of their work? Anyway, they're storytellers. I don't think either of them set out to shift the views of the public. They were telling stories of people and happenings of the time.

>>20915617
While Dostoevsky supported the people that put it on the backburner in favor of maintaining the status quo. I'm afraid that he would think of Dugin as someone reasonable if he were alive today.

>>20915621
Feels a bit cartoonish at times.

>>20915560
>I think Dostoevsky was a political idiot
is this a joke? he literally produced a roadmap of 20th century politics of his country 50 years ahead of time, and if people payed a little more attention to his political critiques he could have prevented multiple genocides of his own people and avoided a century+ of depravity and stagnation

>>20915635
Again, I agree but he supported the exact reactionary option that brought Russia's downfall. Much like when Whites miscalculated the disposition of the vast unwashed masses they treated as cattle.

>>20915640
dostoyevsky was highly critical of the czar and the church and was greatly in favor of more progressive reforms

>>20915482
Netorare is extremelly widely known on the internet because it's universally hated by almost everyone. I am quite a lot surprised that you are browsing 4chan without even knowing what that is

>>20915635
if not for the kulak reform - which lenin would not approve of - i'd argue that soviet union vastly improved russia. they went from a rural slaveowning country in the fucking 20th century to space within a 30 year period. and romanoffs got what they deserved.

>>20915648
that was early dostoevsky. post-gulag dostoevsky wanted emancipation of the serfs and a peaceful country idyll that went against european modernity which for example resulted in the imperial army being woefully incompetent.

>>20915654
My dick gets hard reading it. My favorite netorare is Turgenev's Torrents of Spring, always rock hard reading that.

>>20915617
OP thinks Dostoyevsky should have known that the solution to it was to become like the west instantly despite being 100 years behind.

>>20915655
Ah, there we have it! OP is a commie.

>>20915655
the soviets picked up where the imperials left off in the process of industrializing the country, so that means they were totally cool for enacting multiple genocides against their own people and other people they conquered?
>that was early dostoevsky.
no, that is not what I am talking about at all. post gulag dostoyevsky was still highly critical of the czar and the church

>>20915654
yea i have been here for 14 years and i never heard of it until OPs shitty post.

>>20915678
Maybe OP's mad about how Tolstoy portrayed the simplicity and beauty of peasant life and the hubris of reformers, which the Bolsheviks took a sledgehammer to with results Tolstoy wouldn't have been surprised by. He's mad Tolstoy predicted the failure of communism and social engineering before it was even tried.

>>20915550
/lit/ has always had a thing for Russian authors.

>>20915550
i only started browsing /lit/ like 3 years ago but back then there was actually way more discussion of dostoyevsky than there is nowadays most the time, and i mean actual literary discussion too, not just commies starting culture war threads.

>>20915453
there is still a such thing as bing less wrong, retard. you sound like those rubes that say "wow, the scientists don't understand EVERYTHING, therefore they know basically just as much as *i* do," in an attempt to justify being almost entirely ignorant. being at level zero is not the same as exploring the theory-laden world such that one day you realize level 99 is wrong, which gets you to level 100. and, no, i cannot be said that there are an infinite number of levels, so it's not "pointlessly endless" (which is another bumkin take).

>>20915735
*it cannot be said

>>20915339
>they write the best prose I've ever read
stop being so retarded and insecure, paying lip service to the dark-souls-esque git gud cult. they both suck. russian lit was subject to the same overrating that japanese videogames get today. reactionary fandoms are brain-dead.
t. big-brained reactionary
only when you recognize tolstoy/dostoevsky, dfw, pynchon, joyce, etc as being trash will you be free. you can't be a great writer if you look up to other writers. you must look down on them all. sucking them off makes you pathetic, and caps your potential.

>>20915762
Why would you put the Russians in the same category as these out-of-touch academic pseuds?

>>20915762
what are your favorites then

>>20915735
Did you quote the wrong post?

>>20915778
i don't read.

>>20915785
yes. woops. i meant to quote >>20915462

>>20915735
*being

>>20915339
Why the fuck are you so triggered by the aristocratic lifestyle on display in the books? Who the fuck do you think is writing literature in the 19th century you dumb fuck? Ballrooms and country estates and social events are fucking comfy. I don't want to read about poor uneducated degenerates doing God knows what in a cramped city. We have enough of those today. Who fucking cares about them?

>>20915806
it's one of those things where the *idea* of it is comfy, but the irl version is annoying if you've ever been in such a situtation. given that writers tend to be introverts, i can't imagine they actually spent much time in that type of setting, but rather romanticized it from a distance.
personally, i love seeing this sort of thing in movies, but irl i fucking hate formal/dancerly social functions -- i just want to leave.

>>20915820
Perhaps try reading catcher in the rye. It suits your angst.

>>20915820
Did Tolstoy realize idealize it? It hardly sounds like he thinks terribly highly of those people

>>20915339
le sad russian guy

>>20915820
ive actually been to dances and big parties and social events and they are extremely fun and cozy

>>20915339
Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place.”

>>20915339
>muh Russian Soul and / or Universal Spirit.
T. Soulless bugman

>>20915339
>anime tier femininity, everybody blushing all the time
uwu

>>20915482
Anime website. Anyway NTR has been a joke on all of 4chan for a decade by now.

>>20916041
Have you read the Gospels?

>>20915436
There is an objective way to go about things that leaves little room for bias

>>20916226
I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigmarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search.

>>20915339

What do you guys think of the Oliver Ready translation of Crime and Punishment? I'm kind of considering buying this as a physical copy as I hear dits supposed to be his main book.

I read, The Idiot, Notes, Brothers K with the constance garnett translation on my kindle. I eventually want to own them all physically but was wondering if this version is good worthwhile.

>>20916327
Nabokov wannabe

>>20916589
Stepan verhovensky is just like me desu

>>20915631
>Feels a bit cartoonish at times.
Tolstoy was deliberately portraying masonic lodges in W&P as rather cringe.

Bezukhov blushes because he has built himself an image of masons as wise people who finally understand what there is to to be done with their lives (and therefore his life as well), but then it turns out it a gentleman's club for the same useless-ass bureaucrats and moneybags, not really busy with anything aside from hedonism, partying, embezzlement, petty nepotism and pseudomystical LARP. He' getting significant doses of second-hand embarrassment over their antics.

>>20916337
I don't know but I have to praise Constance Garnett because I mostly read Russian writers in Serbian because the translations are likely very close to the source material. I liked Constance Garnett's translation of Turgenev (Torrents of Spring) better than its Serbian conterpart. On the other hand I can safely say that P & V have nothing to do with Dostoevsky, or manage to capture any nuance of the prose.

>>20916634
>>20916634
That's obvious, what I was going for is that depicting emotion (he was actually reading his own essay to them) and having a grown man blush like a girl in a Masonic Lodge a tad bit simplistic. There are a lot of passages where people simply go completely red or completely pale in the face in a matter of seconds. Plus some portion of the novel feel a bit rushed, like the duel being barely two pages in total, from the challenge to the resolution.

>>20916746
grown men do blush, you know. i certainly do.

>>20916746
>That's obvious, what I was going for is that depicting emotion (he was actually reading his own essay to them) and having a grown man blush like a girl in a Masonic Lodge a tad bit simplistic
1. Pierre is not really a grown man - at that point he's still somewhat of a NEET manchild.
2. It's not uncommon at all for even completely grown-ass men to be socially awkward. For members of aristocratic nobility it is true even more so than for contemporary basement dwellers.

>like the duel being barely two pages in total, from the challenge to the resolution
The anticlimax is the whole point of that scene. For once, Pierre tries to take a confrontational stance in his life and give it meaning and direction by taking a stance against those who he sees as his enemies - and it all only leads to a short farce and him hurting a guy that he really feels sorry for, and no resolution or relief whatsoever.

He hoped that the experience would give his life a definition, that he'll finally look in the face of death and see it's thrill and rejoice in a triumph of violently defeating another man, or in the finality of his own end - that life and death would finally make some solid line across his vision that he can rely on. Instead he finds the whole affair stupid and shameful, his victory nothing more than some dumb luck and his defeat mere pointless suffering of a tormented and sorry man. All of it serving only to confusing Pierre further.

I see it as Tolstoy's dressing down of the "just be a man and everything becomes clear in life" sentiment, common even in his times, backed by Tolstoy's own dueling experience.

>>20916851
I'm not talking about the content of the scenes, just the stylistic choices.

>>20915762
>you can't be a great writer if you look up to other writers
Nigga that's why all of those authors are shit. Always trying to one-up the greats by destroying them and rebuilding the rubble. Art was better when artists weren't insecure about influence and tried to build on the foundation. That's why no one will remember the 20th century.

>>20916854
And I point out that the rapid, rushed style used to describe a duel contributes to how it conveys a farcical anticlimax, just like how meandering and unfocused kaleidoscope style used for Pierre's initiation into the billionaire life serves to convey the feeling of pointlessness. Or like his jumbled and piecemeal witnessing of the Battle of Borodino portrays the absolute disorganized shitshow chaos of the whole affair.

>>20916873
The key feature of Borodino is the orderly retreat of Russian army under artillery fire which decided the war.

>>20916891
Tolstoy has an entire essay in W&P on the whole legion of "experts" who write on Borodino and Napoleonic wars and constantly point out this attack or that maneuver or this clash that "decided the war". Pierre chilling on an ammo box in a stupid hat and not comprehending any bit of what the absolute fuck happens around him is in part a parody of such works, which in time usually had the shape of fictional "accounts of anonymous accidental witnesses of the battle".

Dosto emphasizing suffering as a fundamental necessity of life and that tempering suffering into eventual joy and freedom from the past is not really defeatist in my opinion. Think ya missed that message, chief

>>20915703
You didn't even know how to read 14 years ago, LARPing zoom zoom.

>>20915550
how are they a "fad" they are some of the most famous writers ever and the most famous in russia

>>20915425
amazing ragebait, I'm really angry now
thank you

>>20915655
>if not for the kulak reform - which lenin would not approve of - i'd argue that soviet union vastly improved russia. they went from a rural slaveowning country in the fucking 20th century to space within a 30 year period. and romanoffs got what they deserved.

Get out while you still can.

>>20915560
>I think Dostoevsky was a political idiot.
We love him not for this. You know, Gogol wrote advice to everyone around him on how to live like a Christian and his mother and sisters, on how not to manage the household - this and the other is pure, bright idiocy. But we remember Gogol for "Dead Souls" and other books, and not for his advice on economics.
>they went from a rural slaveowning country in the fucking 20th century to space within a 30 year period.
1. For this, Russia had to be exterminated. Yes, a backward, unwashed, peasant country with horses and plowmen and cabbage soup and beard was processed into rockets.
2. We got into space. There is nothing for a human to do there, one cannot live there. Yes, we don't know how to live anymore.

>>20916589
Well spotted since that it literally a verbatim quote from Nabokov you dolt

>>20916589
Well spotted since that is literally a verbatim quote from Nabokov you dolt

>>20915446
>character development is bad
Are you retarded?

>>20918819
>1. For this, Russia had to be exterminated. Yes, a backward, unwashed, peasant country with horses and plowmen and cabbage soup and beard was processed into rockets.
This happened specifically because the majority of this country was looking forward to it's extermination. It's not just the usual manipulative resentment of the elite, but frothing . It is tragic and regrettable in many ways, but bloody and devastating social upheavals like the October revolution or Boxer rebellion are simply the natural outcome of countless millions of people, from peasants to wealthy oligarchs and government officials being drained, hurt, dumbed down, bound, robbed, cucked, stripped and whipped by the entirety of their lives' fabric into an active, deliberate and even suicidal hatred towards the entire form of their everyday existence. Space rockets or not space rockets, USSR was an end that the Empire built and carved for itself, and which in turn proceeded to build it's own end. Neither of them were some sort of "wrong turns". History doesn't work like that.

>>20915635
>he literally produced a roadmap of 20th century politics of his country 50 years ahead of time
Let's see.
The PSR.
The RSDRPm.
The RSDRPb.
The BSD.
The ARF-D.
The UPSR.
The PoA.
The TNSP.
The USDRP.
Please, map them onto the Dostoyevsky.

>>20915339
Look at how you talk. Your brain has been fried by too much anime and 4chan.

>>20915446
>My main draw from Karamazovs was closing the book and thinking "man, I bet that if he wrote a 100 pages more everyone's stances would switch around back again".
What do you mean by this?

>>20915446
>while being subservient to Tzar
Alexander I is repeatedly portrayed as a hollow idiot that other idiots simp for in W&P. He makes a distinction where while Alexander is an empty space in crown and medals, Nappopan is a full-on megalomaniac deluded into believing that he drives history.

>>20918819
>1. For this, Russia had to be exterminated. Yes, a backward, unwashed, peasant country with horses and plowmen and cabbage soup and beard was processed into rockets.
This happened specifically because the majority of this country was looking forward to it's extermination. It's not just the usual manipulative resentment of the elite, but frothing disdain of most of the society towards society itself. It is tragic and regrettable in many ways, but bloody and devastating social upheavals like the October revolution or Boxer rebellion are simply the natural outcome of countless millions of people, from peasants to wealthy oligarchs and government officials being drained, hurt, dumbed down, bound, robbed, cucked, stripped and whipped by the entirety of their lives' fabric into an active, deliberate and even suicidal hatred towards the entire form of their everyday existence. Space rockets or not space rockets, USSR was an end that the Empire built and carved for itself, and which in turn proceeded to build it's own end. Neither of them were some sort of "wrong turns". History doesn't work like that.

>>20915635
>he literally produced a roadmap of 20th century politics of his country 50 years ahead of time
Let's see.
The PSR.
The RSDRPm.
The RSDRPb.
The BSD.
The ARF-D.
The UPSR.
The PoA.
The TNSP.
The USDRP.
Please, map them onto the Dostoyevsky.

I mean for real - Dostoyevsky formed a hefty chunk of school literature curriculum in USSR, and was one of the most studied authors. Somehow, his omnipresent influence in Soviet lit did precisely nothing to cultivate your sort of historical evaluation.

>>20915339
Someone explain to a westoid the reason why these two are by far the most widely read russians in the west.
I can picture normies enjoying Chekov, Turgenev and maybe Lermontov just as much, yet the popularity of the latter three is not even remotely close to that of Dosto/Tolstoy.

>>20919121
Dosto's popularity was cultivated by the French existentialists. Tolstoy spoke directly to the upper classes that dictated what's good reading for a long time, and did it simply better than anyone else ever could.

humiliated and the insulted is basically ntr

you just seem uncomfortable with looking ones own weaknesses and deficiencies in the face, like you need there to be this very rigid narrative of progress in every aspect of human life, but utilizing that doesn't automatically signal strength. for every rockstar or genius of the west who becomes, there's the mass of people who cope with their shitty lives without any reflection whatsoever just through parasocial unreflectivity in relation the excpetions, yet ostensibly they belong in this same progress and greatness too, without the constant pain and humiliation...

>>20917162
im almost 30 years old

>>20915446
Nice effortpost.

>>20915446
>reactionaries who did not ever bother implementing reforms until it was way too late
dostoyevsky saw that coming too.

>>20915339
Which of their books should I own physically and which ones should I just pirate on my kindle

>>20920227
>own physically
Demons, Crime and Punishment, Idiot, Brothers Karamazov, Insulted and Humiliated, Gambler, War and Peace, Anna Karenina

>>20916244
Your bias comes from your lack of understanding. The Flat-Earthers didn't consider themselves to be biased, but in hindsight they were.

Just read Lermontov, Gumilev and Turgenyev instead. Dosto and Tolstoy are good but highly overrated

>>20915762
>only when you recognize tolstoy/dostoevsky, dfw, pynchon, joyce, etc as being trash
Based and True

>>20915560
>>20915617
>>20915631

Fuck this, I'll read the rest of this godforsaken thread in the morning, but you should know that over-rapid industrialization and reform were part of the destabilizing factors that weakened the government against revolutionary sentiment, and moreover that this process was in its first post-serfdom phase by the time Demons was written, that most sectors were already majority industrial by the 1870s, and that a systemic crash would lead to a consistent wave of industrial growth and expansion that continued unchecked until the Revolution, and which was merely restarted and popularized by the new Soviet government.

Do you recall the crystal palace allegory? People who wish to smash the palace can see how its typical utopianist advocate is a retarded ignorant blinded by the promise of progress and what-could-have-beens to the point that he is absolutely assured of his mistaken perspective, like you are. Same old shit, the man hasn't really been wrong for 150 years. There is a fundamental error in your historical understanding not even getting into the other dumb biases you display, and here you are bitching about how the trad-existentialist-fatalist wasn't enough of a man of action. My God.

>>20915425
>didn't read Industrial Society and it's Future
>read "accelerationist" memes 4chan
>thinks some wishy-washy anecdote about some trailer trash or LA scumwhore mom's stupid ass kid is remotely worth bringing up at all compared to any other example of what industrialization has done to the human race
Shut the fuck up retard.

>>20915482
In his defence, myshkin gets cucked hard

Escobedo McMuffin

(((PATENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!)))

>>20920946
How exactly did rapid industrial development destabilize the government because that never happened in any other country. Because the revolution of 1905 was kickstarted by unsuccessful agrarian reform, nobility parasites mortgaging most of their income, the unsolved peasant emancipation issues despite Kulaks being introduced 40 years hence, and again it was never a problem that industrialization was "over-rapid" but that everything else following it was mired in the same issues that were set aside by the inert elites. Demons is yet another book where Dostoevsky shits on countries that he saw between bouts of epilepsy and the spins of roulette wheel.

>>20920946
Imperial Russia freed the serfs in 1861. For more than fifty years they failed to reform the society and bring themselves up to speed with the civilized world. In WW1, they even had issues driving troops to the front because the railroad network was underbuilt.

Then commies came in 1917. First, there was civil war. So commies effectivelly entered power in 1920. Between 1920 and 1957, commies had to deal with genocidal dictator (who failed his agrarian reform big time), Lysenko's agricultural mysticism, and the genocidal invasion of ze Germans. In those 37 years, Soviet Union emerged victorious, as a dominant force in the world, had half of Europe under its boot, nuclear weapons, put a man in space and had satellites orbiting the Earth. Sounds like someone was dragging their feet.