/lit/ - Literature

Mushbrained nips

>>20876562
Idk who you're trying to argue against. Can you reference a post where someone said anime isn't true art? Otherwise how would we know why that person felt that way?

>>20876580
>Idk who you're trying to argue against. Can you reference a post where someone said anime isn't true art? Otherwise how would we know why that person felt that way?
Generally on /lit/ whenever I use animes as examples of stories that I like, the reaction tends to be:
>animetrash
>Implying stories in anime aren't trash
>This thread is so embarrassing
There seems to be prevailing opinion among writers or other creatives that the stories in anime aren't "as good as literature". I don't have a specific example to point you in the direction of beyond that. I can link a thread I made in the past where I was trying to get into literature as an anime fan where the general response from the board was negative toward my history with anime:
>>20861480
Scroll down to where I make a couple goofy diagrams on me trying to find literature I find "uplifting/fun" with only stories from anime to use as my basis of reference (since at the time I was only able to find literature stories to be brooding/introspective).

>>20876580
Sorry, >>20876605 this post linked to the wrong post, try this instead:
>>20860967
That one is my actual post with my diagrams/examples from anime.

>>20876580
Here's a specific example from that thread.

>>20876562
I'm sad because I wrote out a lengthy response, but since the thread was deleted before I could post it I browsed away and it was gone.
Lemme try to cliff's-notes it:
-anime has poor literary shape because of industry approaches, standards, and methods of production
-one sees evidence of this with the prevalence of filler which harms the overall quality of the work as a single complete entity, with rushed or nonsensical or bad endings as a rule rather than an exception, and with plots that amount to 'this, then this, then this' without necessary or logical connections between events
-lack of literary hallmarks such as allusion and symbolism, which, where present, are usually blunt and childish
-Rudimentary use of language. You mentioned Treasure Island in the other post (though it was aimed at children); take two pages at random and you will note a variety of diction and texture of language not typically present in anime or manga
-two-dimensional characters and events that are usually discarded entirely after their arcs end; this makes them feel like flat contrivances that exist to move a plot rather than actual people or things that happen in an organic world with a continuous reality outside of the current narrative point of view

I hope in the future that mods take care in being less cavalier about deleting topics that would lead to a response such as the one I have just given

Anime tends to be (intentionally) very unchallenging to the viewer. Not something unique to anime at all, but maybe quite a bit more prevalent.

Lots of stock characters, predictable plot beats, characters rarely grow in a meaningful way from any reflection that they do. It’s just supposed to be comfy. You know what you are getting. It won’t disappoint you because it’s predictable.

“True” literature tends to want to do the opposite of all of these. Often plot is more an internal conflict in the main character where they must overcome some flaw within the self in order to grow past something. Things are often much closer to actual human experience also.

If you just want to read, maybe try Isekai or light novels first, then sci-fi and fantasy, then you might try moving on to things within “the canon”.

>>20876562
Anime writing tends to be over-explanatory, which comes off as juvenile. There's also a large difference between "creating a story that will entertain my children, and also myself" and "creating a story that will convince man-children to buy my figurines".

There's also key differences in the mediums, in both production and reception. Literature is largely a one-man show, but anime takes dozens if not hundreds of people to create, which has large impacts on the creative process, including thematic messaging.

>>20876660
I also find it funny that OP mentioned Stevenson specifically. I read one of his short story collections, and while it wasn't anything I'd particularly recommend, the baseline prose and style is notably better than the average modern story

>>20876669
>recommending light novels
I was under the impression that they were the Japanese equivalent of YA. Am I mistaken?

>>20876709

You are not. But I’m trying to suggest an easy entry point.

A lot of the plot lines come off as something written by seven year olds. “What if cells were people and lives in a city? What if WWII countries were people and had a sitcom? What if there was this really really strong man who fights aliens and wins every time because he just gets stronger?” They’re asinine and betray the audience and writer’s maturity.
They’re not all like that though. Miyazaki used to write decent stories, and the latter half of NGE offers a good deal to chew on.

>>20876739
>A lot of the plot lines come off as something written by seven year olds.
In your terms, what does it mean for a story to _not_ be written by seven year olds? What's an example of a story that feels like it was written by adults and what specific characteristics about it set it apart in a way that anime never embodies?

>>20876721
Seems like a dangerous game. There's a handful of YA books I'd feel safe recommending, but just recommending someone start with YA would likely lead them to mostly garbage. There are plenty of accessible books in or adjacent to the Western canon.

>>20876660
>-one sees evidence of this with the prevalence of filler which harms the overall quality of the work as a single complete entity, with rushed or nonsensical or bad endings as a rule rather than an exception, and with plots that amount to 'this, then this, then this' without necessary or logical connections between events
This puts words to a feeling I've had for a long-time about anime which are undesirable sequences where it feels like "Stuff Just Happens" because "we needed to pad out the length of a 50 episode series or 50 hour long game".

A lot of unconnected events often happen without being something that inhabits the central theme (if there is even one) of the work. Moby Dick for example is very much about the human condition. The boredom and ennui that would lead a man to willfully embark on a suicidal whaling expedition. His bizarre fetishization and sense of authenticity being neither a "gentry passenger" or a "Captain" on the ship. Even when Ishmael walks past inns to look for in order to stay, his inner monologues justifying the meager/run-down establishments instead of the luxurious/jolly ones continues to inhabit the mindset of a man who would put themselves on a psychotic whaling expedition instead of turning "the musket and ball" on themselves out of ennui.

>>20876660
>-lack of literary hallmarks such as allusion and symbolism, which, where present, are usually blunt and childish
This is true, especially when it comes to things like Norse mythology which is almost just used as a grab-bag for various mythical elements in the story instead of serving as a genuine allusion. Though, a question I'd ask you is "Is it even really a necessary requirement for a story to have allusion at all?"
>-Rudimentary use of language. You mentioned Treasure Island in the other post (though it was aimed at children); take two pages at random and you will note a variety of diction and texture of language not typically present in anime or manga
Hard to say if it's as a result of localization though. Supposedly the Bakemonogatari Light Novels are genuinely good literature.
>-two-dimensional characters and events that are usually discarded entirely after their arcs end; this makes them feel like flat contrivances that exist to move a plot rather than actual people or things that happen in an organic world with a continuous reality outside of the current narrative point of view
A lot of the characters in anime do not feel like real people in this way, yes. Many of them feel like sock-puppets just to deliver exposition or to move the plot along, which is a bummer.

>I hope in the future that mods take care in being less cavalier about deleting topics that would lead to a response such as the one I have just given
Your post was good and I'm grateful you contributed it.

>>20876660
>I hope in the future that mods take care in being less cavalier about deleting topics that would lead to a response such as the one I have just given
Also for reference, here was the post that was on /a/. Some of the responses were interesting and I wanted to join them to this discussion:
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/241700480/

>>20876562
Anime is a medium like any other, and it certainly has the potential to be extremely good, it just depends on who's making it. There's plenty that are fine action stories for example, if a little dumb at times.
The amount of anime that can be considered true art however can be counted on one hand, and they're all made by one guy. And he's not Miyazaki

>>20876780
Some of the highlights from that thread:
>There seems to be a very low barrier of entry for getting your light novel published in Japan versus getting your fictional novel published in the west. As a result you end up with a bunch of NEETs having their wish fulfillment fantasy of being reborn as a vending machine published, no questions asked.

> As for manga, most of the creators are more well-known for their art skills over their storytelling ability. Since manga is more of a visual medium I'm willing to give them a free pass.

>I've been a screenwriting for over 7 years now, and I can tell you, 100% of anime screenplays would be rejected in hollywood. I have no idea what you are on about with /lit/ (sounds like they are being a bunch of faggots) but generally speaking anime is written horribly, heavy exposition, telling rather than showing, shallow characters, etc.

>High level concepts in anime can be pretty good though, and there's lots of excellent ideas floating about. Just not the best execution writing wise.

>Seriously, for the longest time ever I'd thought the average LN was on the same level as Monogatari because that was the only one I'd read. Then I gave the Konosuba LN a try and oh boy my whole worldview was turned upside down.

Posting my reply before reading what anyone else in this thread said because what I say is canon and infallible.
Anime can be "art" in the same way that most things can be "art". It can also be shit in the way that most things can be shit. When talking about classic literature, you have to keep in mind that it's classic for a reason. Because everyone basically agrees that it's high quality, well made art for this or that reason. The same can be said for other things, too. Vidya, anime, etc. Only you'll be hard pressed to find something that's "art" in those genres simply because most of it is shlock. I would consider anime like cowboy bebop or NGE art. I would consider a game like Hades or Stardew Valley art. They're as different from books or movies as books and movies are different from music or paintings, but all things can be art because art primarily about expressing an emotion/idea connecting with others, or portraying something. You can call a pile of dog shit on the ground art because it expresses how most people feel about "post modern" "art", but that would be a confusing amount of postironic metacommentary that I'm honestly not even too sure the logistics of. Also, you mentioned writing for anime, but anime isn't a purely word based medium. The other more important aspect is the animation itself. If the writing is good but the animation is trash, it's not art.

Basically what I'm saying is that anime can be art, but most of it is garbage, just like most books, games, paintings, music, etc. vis. adhom. are garbage

Here's a frog

>20876789
>and they're all made by one guy. And he's not Miyazaki
Do tell. No (You) though because you b8'd.

>>20876749
>anime never embodies
It's not that anime never embodies it, but that most anime never do. Most books don't either, but /lit/ also has 2500 years of works to pull from.

>>20876796
Your post is using a lot of words just to say "Sturgeon's Law", which isn't wrong, but doesn't comment on the specific trends in anime that make /lit/ think its writing is shallow compared to literature.

Thanks for the frog.

I rewatched Howl's Moving Castle recently, which I rate higher than most novels, and it made me realize that when I come to write my novel it MUST be of the sort that if it were a movie would be rated U (or G, i think, in America). It has to be universal in appeal and in theme, it has to be chock full of cliches like orphans, cobbled streets and big gloomy Victorian mansions and other such objects that are rich in association, as Powys says about Conrad and the boat:
>Like all great imaginative spirits, he realizes that for any inanimate object to wear the rich magic of the deep poetic things, it is necessary for it to have existed in the world long enough to have become intimately associated with the hopes and fears, the fancies and terrors, of many generations.
>It is simply and solely their newness to human experience which makes it impossible for any of these modern inventions, however striking and sensational, to affect our imagination with the sense of intrinsic beauty in the way a sailing-ship does.
and what he says of Balzac
>What I ask from a book is precisely this huge weight of formidable verisimilitude which shall surround me on all sides and give firm ground for my feet to walk on. I love it when a novel is thick with the solid mass of earth-life, and when its passions spring up volcano-like from flaming pits and bleeding craters of torn and convulsed materials. I demand and must have in a book a four-square sense of life-illusion, a rich field for my imagination to wander in at large, a certain quantity of blank space, so to speak, filled with a huge litter of things that are not tiresomely pointing to the projected issue.
How well this is achieved in Howl's Moving Castle!
and it must be filled with the most shameless sentimentality and melodrama! as he writes of Dickens
>He was a monstrous melodramatist. Why not? To be born is a melodrama. To play "hide-and-seek" with Death is a melodrama. And some have found melodramatic satisfaction in letting themselves be caught. All the World's a Puppet-Show, and if the Big Showman jerks his wires so extravagantly, why should not the Little Showman do the same?

>>20876669
>Lots of stock characters
Most literature in history uses "stock characters" with a large number of archetypal traits and little internality
>Predictable plot beats
This is a good thing, everyone who went to Oedipus Rex back then knew exactly how it was going to end, unpredictability is not aesthetic
>characters rarely grow in a meaningful way from any reflection that they do
As above, "stock characters" are the great majority characters in literary history
>Often plot is more an internal conflict in the main character where they must overcome some flaw within the self in order to grow past something
Nonsense, what internal challenge does Ulysses overcome? Or Aeneas?
>Things are often much closer to actual human experience also.
By no means, there are countless canonical works in whatever tradition featuring outlandish and impossible events
Not saying Anime is good but these aren't the reason why it's bad

>>20876780
>>20876793
I'm a bit surprised that there's so much reflexive hostility to you/your good-faith question/us. It's sad, really—a couple good posts like you've highlighted, and then a bunch of angry sperging.

>>20876774
>Is it even really a necessary requirement for a story to have allusion at all?
Not 'necessary', no, but lacking it entirely or almost entirely limits the depth and subtlety possible in a work. Note that allusion can also be self-reference, to earlier events or to mythos/motifs/symbols interior to the work itself.

>>20876797
Have a hint in return for the denial of my (You).

>>20876810
>Thanks for the frog
Yw fren

I'd like to be apart of the discussion more, but I honestly haven't seen too many anime. Usually the ones that I watch are the generally acclaimed good ones, so I can't comment on the shit that it probably usually is. I have seen some bad ones though and they generally follow the same ideas other anons have put forth. One of the worst ones is overexposition. Even in good anime like the first two seasons of AoT, there is aloooooot of stopping the episode, having a monologue, inside a characters head narration, epiphany, returning to the action; look at that 22m, come back next week. It's silly.
Another thing, though, is that with books there's really only one thing that can go wrong. It being written badly. It can be written badly for a few different reasons, but at the end of the day a poorly written book is just that. But with anime there's also more things that can go wrong. Animation, VA, etc. So when there is more to do, you have less time you can spend on the writing aspect. And when there's more things that go wrong, it's easier to lump in the writing as poopoo(even if it is okay) with the rest of it, if everything else is bad too

>>20876562
It's the kind of shit western kids wrote when they were 14.

You know, back when western kids could still write.

>>20876789
you kindof started off right with the part that anime is a medium, but then fucked it up by trying to be a pretentious fag saying only one guy made "art level" anime.

>>20876562
Anime is a medium for conveying stories and ideas. If the stories are good they can be convayed in many different forms. So basically the argument is the same as with pop music. While most pop music is shite there are some bits of it that are way up there with what is considered "good art".

>>20876854
>there are countless canonical works in whatever tradition featuring outlandish and impossible events
The impossibility of events has little correlation with whether the story relates to the actual human experience. The Metamorphosis is very relevant, despite an impossible premise

>20876858
>Have a hint in return for the denial of my (You).
I can't give you a half-(You) so I rounded down unfortunately. Picrel is my guess.

>>20876915
Now tell me how many of the depicted shows and movies he directed

>>20876562
/lit/ is not a board for art, it's a board for literature.
Anime is not literature.

>>20876933
>Now tell me how many of the depicted shows and movies he directed
They can be viewed here. More than a handful. Did I guess correctly?
https://anilist.co/staff/103502/Hiroyuki-Okiura

>>20876789
I'll take the bait. Satoshi Kon?

>>20876953
Posting for reference:
https://anilist.co/staff/99580/Satoshi-Kon

>>20876946
Close, very close, but not quite. Dig a little deeper. A lot of the stuff he worked on as animator are very good though.

>>20876562
Anime is just shallow. Stories are more about reproducing genre tropes and titillating the viewer with cheap gimmicks than exploring deep themes or human psychology. "Intelligent" animes always draw attention to the fact that you should see them as doing something smart by exploring The Big Ideas (tm). Sure, you probably get animes as good as Christopher Nolan movies, but do you get any as good as Faust? I'll believe it when I see it. I don't dislike Japanese Animation inherently, there is some that's pretty good, I dislike the vast majority of it cuz it's uninspired, tacky, and shallow.

>>20876970
>Sure, you probably get animes as good as Christopher Nolan movies, but do you get any as good as Faust?
>Goethe's Faust?
Not anime, but...

Anime can be as well written and executed as any film or TV show. However, even the best of film/TV usually pales in comparison to actual literature in the writing department. That being said, the following anime are in one of the upper tiers of film/TV in general:
>Most Miyazaki
>Tekkonkinkreet
>Ghost in the Shell
>Ghost in the Shell 2 (Innocence)
>Mind Game
>1001 Nights (short film)
>Angels Egg
>All Satoshi Kon films
>Kaiba
>Tatami Galaxy
>Serial Experiments Lain
>Texhnolyze
>Flowers of Evil
>Devilman Crybaby
>Land of the Lustrous
>Mononoke
>Mushishi

>>20876946
>more than a handful
Okiura directed maybe one of what your pic shows. Maybe you should read your own link

>>20877014
>Okiura directed maybe one of what your pic shows. Maybe you should read your own link
I did. The webm the poster posted was named "Kerberos.webm" which sounded like a Jin Roh reference.

>>20877018
>which sounded like a Jin Roh reference
Sure, but that Okiura didn't direct Akira, Your Name, GotS, Paprika, whichever Eva redo that is, or Paranoia Agent. Which is what I was getting at

>>20877023
I didn't say he did Anon. You can see the name printed at the top. I just assumed Jin Roh because the webm was Kerberos.webm.

>>20877023
This all could been avoided by the way if you didn't b8, picrel.

>>20877029
>Now tell me how many of the depicted shows and movies he directed
>More than a handful

>>20877038
I'm a different anon, and I try not to respond to bait, which is why I haven't responded directly to the guessing game. But I'll call out a directorial misattribution just as I would if someone claimed Ezra Pound wrote The Wasteland because he edited it

>>20877065
>More than a handful
He was an animation director on a handful of things anon. But is it worth splitting hairs to not talk about the central topic of this thread?
>>20877065
...N-Nothing was misattributed Anon. Maybe you need to go for a peaceful walk.

This is emblematic of the massification of culture where the hierarchy of aesthetics and taste become confused and muddled (perhaps into an orange goo!) until the criteria of great art is merely what one likes and enjoys. I haven't watched anime in over a decade since I was in my mid-teens, yet I still have fond memories of Bakemonogatari and Evangelion, especially EoE, as fine works of art within the medium, but of course that doesn't change the fact that they're incredibly pedestrian and shallow works with focus on instant entertainment over true artistic merit compared to the actual quality art.

I love Pavement and I love Scriabin. Sometimes I get more enjoyment from the former if I'm not in the mood for art music, even. But I never confuse and lose sight of the distinction between them as two very, very different levels of art.

>>20877155
>with focus on instant entertainment over true artistic merit compared to the actual quality art.
What is "true artistic merit" to you? What about Scriabin makes him "true art" and what about Pavement makes it "instant entertainment"? Why is true art mutually exclusive from also being "instantly entertaining"?

>>20877155
>until the critweia of great art is merely what one likes and enjoys
Always has been, that's what allowed great art to be preserved through centuries and even millennia

>>20876562
I don't know the answer to your question OP but I am trying to write something uplifting and fun with a "anime" aesthetic. I put anime in quotations because my inspiration comes more from video games and I only like the anime art style. I'm hoping to break the perception of bad anime writing or whatever you want to call it to inspire people who do like that stuff and want to write about it but also present themes which are meaningful to them to do the same. Though I don't know if my efforts are getting me anywhere since I have so few readers and less that understand the themes which I'm trying to convey.

>>20877212
>Though I don't know if my efforts are getting me anywhere since I have so few readers and less that understand the themes which I'm trying to convey.
I write comics that like two people read so I can relate. I just make them regardless, even if the only reader was me.

>>20877179
>What is "true artistic merit" to you?

Depth of content and form, in the simplest words.

>What about Scriabin makes him "true art" and what about Pavement makes it "instant entertainment"?

Same answer as above. Music like Pavement, as much as I adore it, consists primarily of stylized pop-music structures with little to no depth of emotion.

>Why is true art mutually exclusive from also being "instantly entertaining"?

It isn't necessarily. Mozart, Keats, and Godard are all immediately and immensely entertaining upon experience with their works; they just also possess the depth of great works of art. Works of popular art, however, no matter how great and entertaining, are ultimately shallow in comparison, hence the distinction.

>>20877187
I disagree. Again, we can all enjoy plenty of kinds of things without claiming they are also highbrow or great works of high art.

>>20877007
>...
Basically this list

>>20877220
>we can all enjoy plenty of kinds of things without claiming they are also highbrow or great works of high art.
Can relate

>>20877038
You didn't manage to guess it in the end anyway.

>20877230
It’s Satoshi Kon as myself and someone else suggested.

>>20877234
Kon is good but he's not who I meant.

>>20877212
I write stories that start with "anime" premises, but are then executed more like western novels. But readers who want anime end up dropping them because it's not the smoothbrained wish-fulfilment they were looking for, while nobody else even gives them a chance because "it's anime", so I can't retain any readership.
I should've known to expect this outcome, I guess.

>>20877220
>I disagree
Explain what allowed high art to survive through the ages, then, and how high art can be identified as such.

>>20877250
lol I'm not suggesting no one ever genuinely liked the great works which have endured and remained culturally relevant throughout time, but rather almost the very opposite; plenty of works people enjoyed contemporarily that they did not consider high art and worth preserving.

>>20877245
I also do this but I make them anyways regardless of readers. I just like making comics with stories I enjoy.

>>20877264
I meant to add:
>I just like making comics with stories I like. They’re a greater gift to myself than any Christmas gift.

>>20877243
Anon. Pls.

>>20877245
i don't read manga or watch anime for the wish fulfillment part especially if their premise is an interesting concept. your story must just be boring or went too far in the artsy bauhaus style that no one but pseuds appreciate. but you have a point that if you want the anime/manga audience, you don't wanna mix that western shit in there because they're typically trying to escape from that territory in the first place.

>>20877264
Comics are all about art though. If you have no readers, I don't think writing is the issue

>>20877276
>your story must just be boring or went too far in the artsy bauhaus style

Nice projection. 95% of the complaints I get are along the lines of "why didn't the MC just effortlessly kill everyone?" and "I'm tired of waiting for the MC to fuck the heroine"

>>20877277
My art isn’t too bad. I’m just afraid there will be consequences for me sharing comics with controversial themes. In truth, I’m probably too unimportant on the Earth for anyone to care to mess me up for anything I say. Self-doubt I guess. Some of my little 4-panel comics I love though.

>>20877283
what sort of brainlets are you garnering to give a shit about those kind of comments? even the shittiest manga have sensible comments trying to understand the psychology of the protagonists unless it's porn.

>>20877291
You'd be surprised how shallow the average light novel reader is.

>>20877291
Well, that's the question, really. There were some smart readers too, but for every good comment, there were 20 morons, and eventually the good ones sort of just disappeared. Herd mentality is unfortunately a thing, and if people see a lot of other readers upset, they're not going to drop in to say, "well, I liked it!" anymore. Rather, they're prone to think "maybe I got it all wrong" instead.

>>20877243 >>20877230
Through a lot of TinEye searches, I found this. Mamoru Oshii?

>>20877329
The secret to dealing with negative comments is the same as the secret to dealing with positive comments.
Don't read them.
Keep making more work and don't ever stop.

>>20877320
>>20877329
post it, now i'm curious. i'm in the camp that when comments like that pile up, it's usually for an underlying symptom of the story suffering that these morons can't articulate properly. there's no way people who take the time to read light novels would be more shallow than the ones who read manga; i thought they would be more patient and enduring because of the nature of the medium.

>>20876943
What about manga or light novels?

>>20877337
You're right, but the comments themselves aren't the problem and I don't really mind them. The main issue is that the complainers leave and don't come back and drag others with them. No matter how I tell myself I'm doing it mainly as a hobby, for my own fun, it's sort of hard to work on something nobody wants.

>>20877342
>i thought they would be more patient and enduring because of the nature of the medium
I'm afraid this isn't the case. Many turn to light novels when they're all caught up with the manga they follow. It's just another way to kill time. You'd be shocked to know how many don't even read properly, but skim over chapters just pick out the cherries they care about and ignore the rest. And are then confused and distressed when they don't understand what's happening.

>>20877384
>it's sort of hard to work on something nobody wants.
In the mirror you will discover the only person who will ever matter when it comes to who wants your work.

>>20877375
Light novels are clearly literature, for mangas (like all comics) the argument can go either way.

>>20877393
is the state of online literature really that bad? damn. guess you should pick up loomis or something cause at least manga and webtoons have audiences that will notice the background character's expressions and whatever shitty easter eggs that the artist leaves behind for fun.

>>20877330
Yes. Also, among other things, the director of Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor 2, and Angel's Egg.

>>20877399
>the argument can go either way.
Whats your opinion?

>>20877409
>Yes. Also, among other things, the director of Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor 2, and Angel's Egg.
I suppose this means I should see his filmography if anime/cinema are important to me as a dorky comic artist? I saw most things on >>20877222 already.

>>20877408
Funnily, I started out as a comic artist. But drawing comics is hard work and time-consuming, while writing is very, very easy. And I hate the webtoon format, it's ugly as shit

>>20877425
Certainly. He's a brilliant director, though he fell off in the later 2000s. The Red Spectacles is also excellent, though not for everyone.

>>20877411
I prefer to keep comics separate from literature, but still close by.

>>20877497
Ranma 1/2 is at the top of the list for my favorite anime. I already had plans to watch Urusei Yatsura but did not realize picrel. It is almost certain I will like his body of work. Thank you for the plug Anon.

animes very frequently overuse conventions and go for cheap thrills (sentimentality, out of place eroticism, cliffhangers...)

a "work of literature" has to be original and on top exhibit craftsmanship at every level (structurally, stylistically, sensually...)

>>20876562
>In clear terms, without using expressions like "It's targeted at children"
It lacks quality. Sometimes things don't need to go that much further. When you've spent a lot of time reading books, you get an intuitive feel for what is and isn't good. Anime, with some vanishingly marginal exceptions, isn't good. It just lacks quality. The quality of the writing is such that it requires suspension of literary quality standards to consume — and it definitely is 100% oriented towards consumption. Fuck scholarship, it's just not well-written. The quality is poor. To the eye of someone who's read thousands upon thousands of books, you just know it when you see it. If you were to read thousands of books yourself, you'd see it too. Anime fans don't read books, except hack fiction of similar quality, and only once their dopamine-addled cum-brains have burned through each and every collection of pixelated gooks speaking in saccharine falsetto. To someone who reads a lot of books, it seems patently ridiculous for an anime fan to suddenly propose the genre's legitimacy. Why? Because they don't read fucking books. They have no clue what it is they're trying to appeal. It's as farcical as asking why baseball players look down on anime. Baseball is to sports anime as writing is to anime proper. The relationships are only tangential.

I hope that clears it up for you.

>>20876562
Even the greatest screenplay could never compare in quality to an average classic novel that no one reads anymore

Anime is for fags and troons

>>20877245
Anywhere I can read them?

>>20877576
Good to hear that! I hope you enjoy him.

>>20877601
>cheap thrills (sentimentality, out of place eroticism, cliffhangers...)
The Odyssey has more sex and murder in it than any anime I have seen short of Redo of Healer. The man literally murders 108 dudes who are trying to bang his wife.

>>20877606
>Even the greatest screenplay could never compare in quality to an average classic novel that no one reads anymore
Why is that? What is "quality" in your terms here?

>>20877601
>a "work of literature" has to be original
Lol, lmao

>>20877673
That's not a cheap thrill, though. It's a climax, like The Wild Bunch.

>>20877760
Almost every other story beat in the Odyssey has sex involved in it...

>>20877601
>a "work of literature" has to be original and on top exhibit craftsmanship at every level (structurally, stylistically, sensually...)
Define "structural/stylistic/sensual" craftsmanship. What are good examples of them?

Since I wrote up a big reply right before a thread got deleted, I'm posting it here.

>>20874220
>>20874496
If you want stuff for adults, look for "sienen" or "josei" manga. The criticisms you guys are making are like some soviet complaining that everything in western media is for children because they've only seen stuff on the disney channel or something. (Did the disney channel even exist when the USSR still existed?)

>>20874207
That guy who wrote Emanon, probably. Pretty substantial dip after the first volume, however. But that first volume is literary as fuck and self-contained.

>>20875006
Depends widely on what you're into. Soil is great, very psychological and kinda avante garde. Takemitsuzamurai is stellar; a straightforward story of growth against your nature. Mushishi centers around the tragedies that accumulate in simple, every day life, and how we can move forward. Shoulder a Coffin Kuro is a folklore/fairytale/journey mashup; a little saccharine occasionally but also very dark at times without ever coming off edgy or juvenile. Yokohama Kaidashi Kiko is about a fading world as humanity slowly goes extinct, but peacefully; a very plaintive and unhurried story that is widely regarded as some of the best stuff the medium has to offer. The Girl from the Other Side is a dramatic tale of pathos and transformation. I already mentioned Emanon above; it's a realy words words words story and I found it captivating. >>20874486 is probably great (I've only seen the anime, but loved it). Homunculus is VERY psychological and weird, and damn good. Hinamatsuri is just plain fun, but aimed at adults and pretty touching. Things by Oshimi are always very dramatic and darkly psychological; Aku no Hana is one of his more famous ones, and it has a great anime adaptation that uses Baudelaire's work as a motif. Oyasumi PunPun is a miserable tale, like a failed coming of age story; considered grimdark by people who can't relate to a horrible, lonely childhood around really broken adults. Houseki no Kuni is ongoing and absolutely mesmerizing; very literary and will turn into my favorite manga if it sticks the landing (ending). Yotsuba@ is the mascot series of 4chan for a reason and a great read. The Trigun manga is quite a bit better than the anime with more flesh to its themes. I think that's about all I got for recs to someone just jumping in.

>>20874985
CSM is a fun ride but pretty pulpy; very high "cool" factor that is driven by characters with a lot of personality and adrenaline moments rather than an interesting narrative; the kind of manga teenagers gobble up eagerly. His prior series, Fire Punch, weaves some genuine themes and has genuine literary depth.

>>20876562
It's a confluence of a few things, most of which have been mentioned in this thread already. The most important reason, as I see it, is that most anime are adaptations of manga or light-novels, two mediums not known for their depth of writing. Even when they are written in an interesting manner, those more "literary" works probably won't sell as well, and as a result won't get an anime adaptation. In this way, only the weakest of manga and LNs get adapted. Most good anime with interesting plots/themes/writing/whatever are either originals or adaptations of actual novels, not light novels.

Another more insidious issue, and one that I've read many an interview of old anime directors talking about, is the fact that most anime creators don't do anything but watch anime and read manga. They don't watch other movies, they don't read books, they don't go for walks and think about nature or their day. It's a very incestuous medium in that way, and as a result the worst cliches get repeated and amplified over time, turning the average seasonal into a veritable Hapsburg of catgirls and toast-in-mouth-running.

>>20877789
Are you saying that Fire Punch is better than CSM?

>>20876824
I dont much enjoy the fantastic. As a child who has seen everything cgi and illustrators with great imagination have created nothing gets to me.

It all feels like the are trying to one up eachother kind of like how dragon ball supposedly gets up to the point where goku can punch the universe out of existence with one hit. Or like in ghibli/miyazaki movies where:
>(insert something amazing happening like lava or fish bursting through cracks) and then
>(insert character having a highly exaggerated suprise reaction to it where their hair moves a bunch and their eyes bulge).

Its all so tiring, theres too much obsession with this shit that subtlety has been dead in the water for a while now. "bleeding craters of torn and convulsed materials." Does nothing for me, its being discriptive for the sake of being descriptive, no substance just "amazement". To my knowlege I have never seen anybody write this way other that post 20th century authors and I just cannot stand it for some reason.

Miyazaki movies are worshipped because they are supposedly deep like how "princess mononoke" was meant to explore the plight of the "jomon"/"emishi" who were the natives of japan that would later be driven back and their lands stolen from them by the yayoi from mainland asia(or southern japan) eventually taking almost all of the territory from the native jomon and forming what would become japan

A story that involved that would be awesome but when i watched it, i felt only fleeting lines of dialouge like fucking exposition just for miyazaki to say "yeah this story is DEEP" and then never fucking touches on it and instead goes into spirit bullshittery and the same "humans be bad and mean to the forest/nature" narritive. If you watched the dub the stuff about them being jomon or "emishi" isnt even fucking touched on because its confusing to westerners and wasnt even written in as a fucking important part of the story. The loss of your nation, to be the only of your kind, resisting when everybody is hopeless and subdued, melancholia like in "The wanderer" poem , tribes vs military industrial powers, etc. Would have been great themes yet we get more fucking spirits bullshit. Miyazaki movies are prime "fantastical" but will never be anything other than cool stuff like a man with long spider arms like daddy long legs or each wave in the sea becoming a fish and flooding a town. Its enraging that miyazaki brings up the slaughter or subjugation of a people done by his ancestors and doesnt do anything interesting with it.

Narritive is sacrificed so you can have your wacky female kid laughing with big teeth with some kind of goofy spirit. I swear miyazaki films have to be the progenitor to stuff like steven universe. In fact, looking now there is extreme amounts of influence ghibli films have on steven universe in addition to anime in general.

So I have concluded that when you take away the good art from anime and then turn it gay you get steven universe.

>>20876793
The highlight from that thread is:
>The problem is people in one community tend to take their best to compare with the popular but popcorn tiered works in other medium.
This and the recent manga thread that was quickly deleted show that /lit/ doesn't know much good anime/manga.

>>20876858
Oshii, Kon, Kawajri, Hosoda, and Yuasa are all pretty good. It's not like Oshii has some sort of monopoly on artistry in the medium nor that he's even the best in the biz (or even the best of those listed above). He's probably the most "cinematic" but he's plenty fallible; the first patlabor movie had noticeable direction problems and the second ghost in the shell movie was pretty fucking assy.

>>20877867
I suppose so. CSM was a fun ride but I will never reread it; it's just entertainment to pass the time. Fire Punch has some serious unevenness and warts but I will reread it someday since there's some genuine narrative and thematic depth despite also having some of the trappings of a shlocky shounen manga.

>>20877789
Here's an archived version of your post where someone can easily view the thread that was deleted (since your links are now broken):
https://archived.moe/lit/thread/20876562/#q20877789

>>20877924
Sorry, here's the corrected link:
https://archived.moe/lit/thread/20876562/#20877789

>>20876856
>I'm a bit surprised that there's so much reflexive hostility to you/your good-faith question/us. It's sad, really—a couple good posts like you've highlighted, and then a bunch of angry sperging.
Not him but a bit I don't find it surprising, if you go to a board for fans of a specific hobby and then you make a thread shitting on that hobby, I don't think it's weird that people won't take kindly to it.

All the criticisms might be completely valid and true, but the fanatics that inhabit the board are not gonna be happy with them, and you shouldn't expect them to be in the first place.

>>20877789
>Depends widely on what you're into. Soil is great, very psychological and kinda avante garde. Takemitsuzamurai is stellar; a straightforward story of growth against your nature. Mushishi centers around the tragedies that accumulate in simple, every day life, and how we can move forward. Shoulder a Coffin Kuro is a folklore/fairytale/journey mashup; a little saccharine occasionally but also very dark at times without ever coming off edgy or juvenile. Yokohama Kaidashi Kiko is about a fading world as humanity slowly goes extinct, but peacefully; a very plaintive and unhurried story that is widely regarded as some of the best stuff the medium has to offer. The Girl from the Other Side is a dramatic tale of pathos and transformation. I already mentioned Emanon above; it's a realy words words words story and I found it captivating. >>20874486 is probably great (I've only seen the anime, but loved it). Homunculus is VERY psychological and weird, and damn good. Hinamatsuri is just plain fun, but aimed at adults and pretty touching. Things by Oshimi are always very dramatic and darkly psychological; Aku no Hana is one of his more famous ones, and it has a great anime adaptation that uses Baudelaire's work as a motif. Oyasumi PunPun is a miserable tale, like a failed coming of age story; considered grimdark by people who can't relate to a horrible, lonely childhood around really broken adults. Houseki no Kuni is ongoing and absolutely mesmerizing; very literary and will turn into my favorite manga if it sticks the landing (ending). Yotsuba@ is the mascot series of 4chan for a reason and a great read. The Trigun manga is quite a bit better than the anime with more flesh to its themes. I think that's about all I got for recs to someone just jumping in.
These tastes sound consistent with the list in this post >>20877222 .

>>20877816
>They don't watch other movies, they don't read books, they don't go for walks and think about nature or their day.
This seems pretty true. Many of the great films of cinema (Citizen Kane, La Dolce Vita) were made by creators who had a background education in the classics of literature and philosophy in some ways. From the inspiration in those works, they would create their own films. Any work of art is essentially a facsimile of the creator's inspirations throughout their whole life. Thus if a person's only inspirations are _other facsimiles_, you are then making a facsimile of a facsimile, becoming further and further away from the original primary source of inspiration. Picture in your head making a photocopy of a photocopy and how the picture degrades by not using the primary source.

I actually used this point to suggest that Quentin Tarantino's films seem to struggle from the same phenomenon as anime creators since no interviews or books about him suggest him having an education in literature (or even creative writing for that matter). This is a speculative observation, but it is my opinion he solely learned from screenplays and watching movies instead of literature/philosophy/scripture (or simply having hobbies outside of filmmaking). His movies are very stylish (like anime) but his idiosyncratic dialogue only disguises that his characters are somewhat paper-thin in-terms of them being convincing as people who could actually be real. And much of that idiosyncratic dialogue is just fluff: stuff that isn't instrumental to the plot but lets us know how "quirky and realistic" these characters are. This reminded me a lot of how anime often have characters with extremely repetitive catchphrases (e.g. "Yare yare daze" (JJBA), "Hetchara" (DBZ)) to make it easy for the audience to remember/know the character, but doesn't necessarily add much depth to them as believable people who could really exist.

>>20876824
Can you link the text from where Powys says these quotes? These are really good quotes.

>>20876866
>but I honestly haven't seen too many anime
Try these >>20877222

>>20877903
I'm mostly memeing oshii being the only "true artist", but I genuinely believe that Angels Egg and Patlabor 2 are the peak of the medium. They're truly exceptional.

>>20876660
Gotta use notepad when you effortpost (or make it a habit to copy & paste, or maybe there's an extension that would automatically copy what you've typed upon clicking "Get Captcha"). Regardless, excellent post.

>>20878041
Honestly being forced to rewrite my posts after losing them often results in vastly more concise posts which make my points more salient.

>>20876856
>Not 'necessary', no, but lacking it entirely or almost entirely limits the depth and subtlety possible in a work.
>Note that allusion can also be self-reference, to earlier events or to mythos/motifs/symbols interior to the work itself.
I was disagreeing with you when I only read the first quote I just pasted, but then when I read that second quote from you...

It made me think...

>>20877947
>These tastes sound consistent with the list in this post >>20877222 .
I've seen the vast majority of that rec chart (though I'm not the one who posted it nor have I ever used that chart to guide my own selections), and there are both things I love on there and things I think are forgettable wastes of time. That said, that's an anime chart, not a manga chart, whereas you quoted me on manga. So maybe I should adjust my list to account for whether there is an adaptation or ever might be an adaptation. Sure, why not:
>Soil
Never ever going to be adapted to anime.
>Takemitsuzamurai
Doesn't have one, probably never will.
>Mushishi
Has an extremely faithful adaptation with wonderful voice work and music. You can't go wrong with either version and I might even rec the anime over the manga.
>Shoulder a Coffin Kuro
Doesn't have one, not impossible that it could get one in the future.
>Yokohama Kaidashi Kiko
Has some OVAs but they're little snippets covering very small bits of the story. Beautiful art and music, though.
>The Girl from the Other Side
Has a three episode OVA adaptation that tells a HEAVILY compressed and substantially modified version of the story.
>Emanon
Adaptation never ever, not that I feel it needs one.
>Homunculus
Never ever.
>Hinamatsuri
Has adaptation, though it doesn't run to the completion of the story.
>Aku no Hana
Another incomplete adaptation.
>Oyasumi PunPun
Never ever.
>Houseki no Kuni
VERY incomplete adaptation considering it ends before a lot of major developments (both narrative and thematic). Also, the manga has a distinctive visual style that the anime does not capture.

For some bonus recs that are anime only: Kyousougiga is a wonderful, heart-warming story of family in a surrealist environment. Flip Flappers is very "anime" with two cute girl protagonists, but it has a lot going on under the surface, speaks to Jungian psychology, and is visually stunning.

I also recommend Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita, which is a scathing satire of many aspects of japanese (and human) society, but with an aesthetic of gumdrops and lollipops. It's based on a series of novels; probably considered "light" novels, but there's no definite distinction for publishers.

>>20878034
Last time I saw Angel's Egg like ten years ago it was 3deep5me, but maybe I will appreciate it more now. Agreed on Patlabor 2, though I would add GitS as well; doesn't matter that it's one of the few anime movies many people have watched, it's still a masterpiece.

>>20877816
This is a snippet from a little interview at the end of one of the volumes of one of Atsushi Kaneko's works (author of Soil).

Patlabor 2 is my favourite movie of all time.

>>20878009
Suspended Judgments and Visions and Revisions, both are on Project Gutenberg.

>>20878135
>Suspended Judgments and Visions and Revisions
Absolutely amazing. Thank you anon.