/lit/ - Literature

Old Bread
>>20831190

I'm going to write 3k words today. I've decided.

What are people's thoughts on chapters? Normally in my writing I'm not too concerned with breaking everything into chapters or hitting strict criteria on length etc. but could this be alienating or structurally unsound? A lot of my favourite books don't really have chapters at all, and almost feel they're a bit of an old convention at this point but maybe I'm wrong on that

What are people's thoughts on AIDS?

Day 64 editing
I just keep finding fucking plot holes!
I wonder what its like to pay someone for their attention?

>>20841517
Nice, do it. I broke the 20 page barrier yesterday with something I started recently, which I always find makes a big difference psychologically - before I get to that point is doesn't actually feel real and it's a huge grind to get over that hill but once I'm there everything becomes a lot easier

>>20841527
Ain't got em.
Don't want em.
Simple as.

>>20841544
Bro just like plot better. It's so easy.

You're not using singular 'they', right anon? Right?

I'm rewriting Gang Weed the Movie in poetic meter. Are there any good examples of plays with anapestic or trochaic dialogue?

"Are you talkin' to me" is two anapests, right?

>>20841517
Well I did it. That wasn't so bad. I'm never doing it again though.

>>20841887
You're a fast writer. What did you write?

>>20841899
I was already halfway done with that goal when I made the original post. Working on my novel about the two people's shifting religious perspectives. I'm down to just the last six chapters now and they're all shaping up nicely. I'll be done in two weeks, tops.

I've unironically started looking into the JQ because so many of my favorite authors were antisemites.

>>20841519
looking at brando sando's chapters, they are from 5,000 to 8,000 words in length.
and they end with some kind of climax. maybe the enemy attacks or the hero kisses the girl or they find the treasure, etc

>>20841969
the bible was made from greek hermetic texts, the real jews are good but they were probably hellenic scientists lost to time

>>20841762
>When Alex Easton, a retired soldier, receives word that their childhood friend Madeline Usher is dying, they race to the ancestral home of the Ushers in the remote countryside of Ruritania.

>What they find there is a nightmare of fungal growths and possessed wildlife, surrounding a dark, pulsing lake. Madeline sleepwalks and speaks in strange voices at night, and her brother Roderick is consumed with a mysterious malady of the nerves.

>Aided by a redoubtable British mycologist and a baffled American doctor, Alex must unravel the secret of the House of Usher before it consumes them all.

It is as bad as you think it is.

Past or present tense?

>>20841519
Doesn't matter if you pace your scenes well. A rule of thumb for me (primarily horror) is to never explain the horrors in the same chapter they appear. Navelgazing ruins pacing. Keep it for dialogue scenes. Otherwise, your characters sound like Patrick Bateman.

>>20842007
I asked this last thread, or maybe the thread before. From what I've gleamed past tense is suited for almost any story, whereas present tense is harder to pull off in first person works or those which have many perspectives. Present tense, being more immediate, is better for stories which span shorter lengths of time, rather than one which takes place across the ages with timeskips and the like. But, like with most things, you can do what you like as long as your prose holds up.

>>20842007
Present. Live in the NOW.

>>20842029
>gleamed

Should be "gleaned." "Gleam" is to shine.

https://grammarist.com/usage/gleam-vs-glean/

I am still offering editing services for the low, low price of whatever people can afford, btw

>>20842007
past tense, third person omniscient limited, with a cheeky little first person from the author's perspective, sparingly used for effect

>>20842051
Good to know, thanks anon. I didn't realize they were two separate words and always figured using 'gleamed' like that meant to "shine a light on" or "bring to light". I suppose it doesn't make much sense thinking about it now.

>>20842051
One more peep out of you and I'm going to begin reporting your every post for advertising. You're becoming a pest.

You're right about gleam vs glean of course, which is almost as annoying to me as when people say "flush out an idea" instead of flesh. Always makes me think their ideas are shit they flush down the drain.

>>20841975
Great so as long as I end with kissing a beautiful woman I'll be golden

>>20842017
Thanks, I agree with that. I think I've been reading too many of those books about structure that insist on chapters of x length and x amount of them. Always seemed limiting to me

>>20842102
Structure is more for genrefags who want to become one of those Dinah dozen authors who crank out 250 novels of the Hero's Journey over and over again.

>>20842115
I agree, but with a caveat: sometimes having a cookie-cutter structure can allow you to focus more on the things that actually matter. I generally just ignore structure, myself, but I can see the appeal. Structure isn't really something that deserves a lot of attention, but it's sometimes helpful just to guide you along the way as you delve more deeply into shit you actually care about... you know, like, "WRITING," or whatever. My opinion is that writers should do whatever is necessary to free up enough mental energy to focus on interacting meaningfully with the actual artistic medium of writing, instead of getting lost in the ultimately-extraneous reeds of plot and structure.

once you learn 3 act structure, you'll be amazed at how many books and movies utilize it, either intentionally or unintentionally
https://philipp.truebiger.com/three-act-structure/

>>20842214
Once you realize that no work of fiction has ever been good because of how well it follows literally any story structure, you realize how completely unimportant the whole thing really is. There is a finite and small amount of possible story structures, and given their ubiquity there's very little to be gained from studying them outside of trying to tap into dollars flowing through the book-to-movie pipeline. Better to focus on writing well.

>>20842214
The principle is just that stories need to have rhythm. You should understand this underlying concept first, rather than look at only the simplest form of rhythm and think that's all there is.

>>20842007
Second person. Future.

Tomorrow, you’ll wake up at five in the morning, feeling better rested and more energetic than you’ve been in years. You’ll go for a jog as the sun rises above the blue horizon. The cityscape will reflect in the shimmering river. The morning breeze will carry the scent of fresh bread and coffee to tickle your nose. Your legs will soar across potholes and dead leaves with the vigor you thought you’d lost years ago.

Then, you’ll see that neighbor girl you have had an eye on for years running in front of you. You’ll quicken your pace to catch up to her and give her a little tap on the ass. Her pink-yoga-pants-covered butt will jiggle like jello, and she’ll turn to look at you—first with confusion, then her lips will widen into a smile.

“Oh, hey, Anon! I haven’t seen you since forever! How have you been?” she’ll say.

You’ll run alongside her and say, “Same, same… Well, to be honest, I went through a rough couple of years, but it’s better now. And I got a feeling things will only improve.”

“Really? What’s your secret? I’d like to get my shit together too.”

You’ll laugh at her words and beckon her to lean closer. Both of you will slower your steps, and you’ll lean in to whisper into her ears:

“I stop reading books and switch to watching daytime cable.”

“Wow, that’s amazing! Congratulations, Anon! Glad you’re joining the rest of us in the real world!”

Both of you will laugh and enjoy the morning light. Afterward, you’ll go out and fire bomb every book store in the city, and you’ll get hailed as a hero for generations to come.

>>20842321
I like it. Choose your own adventure books are criminally underrated

>>20842076
The good ole Dostoyevsky one-two. There is something so grounding about having an “in our town” thrown in every 100 pages or so, even if it is completely vague and the narrator doesn’t necessarily “exist” in the story.

Welcome to the pile. I'll give it a read in September

>>20842321
English does not have a future tense.

>>20841969
The religion is evil. It's a supremacist genital mutilation cult. reform judaism, aka christianity is also evil. It's a doomsday cult that glorifies weakness and tells its followers not to do anything (except spread christianity) and that everything will be okay when they die.
If judaism is the religion for yahweh's chosen, christianity is the religion for yahweh's slaves. The worst part about them both, they're false. A being as petty and pathetic as yahweh obviously isn't the creator of the universe.

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/book-storystructure/the-great-gatsby/

here's "the great gatsby" in 3 act structure. the best way to learn 3 act structure is to look at these story breakdowns of books and movies you know

>>20842542
Why do a 3-act structure? You're not living in ancient Greece

>>20842495
the bible is basically correct regardless of whether or not the people who practice the religion are evil

the ten commandments are basically just the non-aggression principle. anyone who disagrees with them is mentally ill

>>20842624
>you are mentally ill if you don't keep the sabbath
O-oh. I didn't realize that.

>>20842655
having one day off a week isn't even a religious thing it's just supposed to prevent slavery

>>20842473
English will have a future tense.
QED

>>20842321
>Afterward, you’ll go out and fire bomb every book store in the city,
Fucking lol'd.

>>20842665
>you're mentally ill if you disagree with the ten commandments
>e-except that one, that one isn't religious
Also the Mosaic law has plenty of laws regarding slavery you moron, it was common practice and 100% approved by God.

>>20841527
punishment for people who can't keep their dick in their pants.
>>20841519
when I first started I was more worried about hitting exactly 1500 words but never more than 2000.
now I don't care, if I was only at 1200 I would just write another chapter onto that one so its not too short.
though this is more applicable for someone like me who is uploading a chapter a day vs someone who writes a book.
>>20842443
its good from what I've read, slowly working through it.
>>20842495
cringe.

>>20842689
biblical slavery was very obviously intended only for hylics and races that were not considered sentient

>>20842773
>s-slavery wasn't bad, actually

>>20842773
bare in mind that also slaves were to be treated with at least basic respect. you weren't supposed to beat them or kill them without any reason, they were supposed to be housed and clothed and fed.
basically they were employees who couldn't quit, some people even willingly selling themselves into slavery since it was easier than getting a job elsewhere.
but I'm not going to post on this topic more than I already have since this is off topic and you shouldn't reply to shizos too much.

>>20842773
Are you a retard? Why is this the hill you want to die?

>>20842811
judaism requires circumcision of slaves
why do you think they push it so heavily in america?

what do you anons think of slice of life stories personally? And do you think they're publishable in America?

>>20842850
Go back to /pol/.

>>20842862
Neck yourself shabbos goy

>>20842867
Go back.

>>20842861
personally the only slice of life is read is also comedy. i.e Karakai Jouzu No (Moto) Takagi-San and Hatarakanai Futari
as far as publishing in america from what i've seen in these threads at least unless you make it LGBT, black, or native. no one is going to care outside of smaller literary journals and publishers.

>>20842850
I’m glad I never went ton/pol/. Seems like brain rot.

>>20842901
I only go there every once in a while when a big political event has happened.
but it really is brainrot. I was rereading a story I enjoy and there is a scene where the main character talks about how the members of the cult are in such high positions because of a support structure where they fund and invest in one another as well as giving them jobs.
the first thing my brain jumped to was the jews and I just started laughing.

I'm currently writing a story and I wanted to include a scene where the main character has a dream of their childhood that gives just a little bit of backstory and explanation to something they carry. Would you guys put this at the very beginning and have them wake up or would you put the dream a little further into the book? I wouldn't say its crucial to the plot but it provides some characterization.

>>20842952
also what do you guys think of dream sequences or flashbacks in writing at all?

>>20842952
>>20842961
if you put that at the very start of the story you might as well just not make it a flashback and instead write the scene and then put a message of X years passing.
I think dream sequences and flashbacks should be used more conservatively as they can break up the pace of the story when overused.

>>20842961
I have a dream sequence, specifically a nightmare, as a catalyst for a drastic change an MC makes in their life. I also have multiple flashbacks across the middle portion of the story.

>>20842901
>Seems like brain rot.
It is brainrot. I don't know how people can take it seriously.

>i don't need to outline i have a special snowflake ~intuition~
>heh learning the three act structure? are you out of your mind/an ancient greek?
>n-no one reads for the plot anyway.
>my meandering and conflictless "story" isn't getting published cuz i'm a white male, th-thats all. buncha philistines
why are amateurs like this bros?

Mid-August Daydream

One day, I foresee it, I’ll die on the subway,
Whether dry-throated, slow-cooked, or pickled in brine.
After a lifetime of rushing from here to there,
If I’m lucky, perhaps, I’ll have a moment to pray.

I’ll be calm when it happens, because I foretold it,
I tell myself hoping to make those words true.
Somebody will say: Henry has died on the train.
Someone else, caring casually, will ask gently: Who?

Selfish, I’d like to go alone when it happens,
Though I know better than to make such enormous requests.
I’d like to go at four or so, to delay no one’s trip,
Near the end of the line, after everyone’s left.

One day, I’ve foretold it, I’ll die on the subway,
The steel car my one and only makeshift grave.
I know it’s much to ask that it swallow me and me only,
But please, for me: spare the masses in just this one way.

Below, the city’s throbbing veins
Will clog and burst: then let me drain.

>>20843017
One of these was my post and it was intended as a joke. I'm sorry if it offended you.

>>20841887
I did a thousand more just to see if I could. My back and my neck hurt and I'm sweaty and uncomfortable.

>>20842862
>>20842901
That's their religion. That's what their evil religion says. I'm sorry that you don't seem to like me reporting on what their evil, supremacist religion says. I'm sorry you seem more annoyed with me telling you what their evil genital mutilation cult does, than the fact that their evil genital mutilation cult actually does it. I suppose that's on you.

>>20843110
I hope you seek help one day.

>>20841719
I think I've found my problem!
>Is it better to be implicit or explicit?

>>20841519
I can only really write in terms of chapters. How can you not break your work into scenes that way?

Our Younger Poet, weaned early from his bottle,
Begins to cast about for a role-model
And lacking knowledge of the great tradition,
Pulls from the bookstore shelf a slim edition
Of Poems of Now, and takes the offered bait,
And thus becomes the next initiate.
If male he takes his starting point from Lowell
And fearlessly parades his suffering soul
Through therapy, shock-treatments, and divorce
Until he whips the skin from a dead horse.
His female counterpart descends from Plath
And wanders down a self-destructive path
Laying the blame on Daddy while she guides
Her readers to their template suicides --
Forgetting in her addled state, alas,
Her all-electric oven has no gas."

>>20843200
>I think I've found my problem!
You're gay?

>>20842952
I agree with the other sentiments. My preferred infodump method is storytelling by an authority figure to a main character when said MC is still young, like as a bedtime story. But it usually only is necessary at the beginning of the story.

>>20842862
>>20842882
>>20842901
>>20842911
>>20843014
T. Rabbi Schmuel "Christkiller" Shekelstein-Kikeberg-Leibowitz

>>20843298
Seek help.

>>20843298
are you here for writing or just to shit up the thread?

>>20843298
joy of satan worships demons but when the jews pray to the nice autistic one suddenly they say it's evil kek

Ok what the fuck? F Gardner is being promoted on Goodreads under all the major horror stuff.

I finished chapters 30 and 31 today. Chapter 32 was already done. Only four more chapters remain. After that I'll cut chapter 2, put whatever's worth keeping into chapters 1 and 3 and the final count will be 35 chapters.
By Jove I see the fucking light at the end of the fucking tunnel I'm going to do it that's 4500 words I wrote today good night /wg/

>>20843404
His shill game is too strong

>>20843404
He’s broken through to the mainstream. My take is that this is where the influx of Gardnerposters have been coming from.

>>20843404
I heard about this in the &amp thread. Unreal. Memeing fucking F Gardner into being a celebrity is the funniest thing this board has ever done.

I just realized that a major part of lits failure to write anything decent is that you people have a tendency to overwrite and overcomplicate where there should be simplicity.. reading all the work that comes from this place is like reading bad impressions of what good writing is...

>>20843404
Same thing appears for Stephen King books too. Did F Gardner come out as gay or something? They really are shilling him. This is ridiculous.

>>20843442
I'd rather do a bad imitation of a good writer than try to write something passable by accepting I cannot achieve anything more than moderate effect
I'm not embarrassed about being bad because I'm not a child who expects to be good at things immediately

>>20843404
Fuck off Gardner you fucking faggot.

>>20843482
Not Gardner. Check GR if you think I’m making this shit up.

>>20843487
I don't care. Fuck off Gardner.

>>20843416
>Gardnerposters
>plural
Shut up Gardner.

How do I flesh out characters into being more than just me?
I've realized I am a fundamentally non empathetic person and I do not know how to think like other people or consider things from any position not my own, which means all my characters are samey and conflict is circumstantial since fundamentally all my characters agree with each other

How the fuck do you avoid writing academically? I've spent the last 8 years of my life in Uni, and every time I write & workshop a piece, the common critique is that it's exhausting to read. I talked to my mentor (a professor who publishes crime novels) and he told me I write like an academic instead of a novelist.

>>20843578
>conflict is circumstantial since fundamentally all my characters agree with each other
even if your characters are like this - and they shouldn't be you need to work on that - unless they are all sitting around a table arguing philosophy this shouldn't matter as far as conflicts go. 2 guys trying to get the same girl, hell let's say it's 2 twins trying to get the same girl. both of them look and may even think alike, but fundamentally they disagree on one very important point. Even if all your characters have similar worldviews selfishness by itself will create conflict. Obviously your characters should have differing worldviews, as well.

>>20843442
I was actually complimented by an anon who said I was clear and easy to read. I will have to see if that holds true when they read the short stories I'm sending to &amp.

>>20843404
Damn. This solves the mystery of why there has been so many Call of the Crocodile threads lately.

>>20843578
You don't, you rolled "sociopathic piece of shit" not "creative writing author". Best you can hope for is try to compartmentalize them more and fill in the gaps with cliches and tropes. Thems the breaks, psycho.

>>20843592
Cut down the length of your sentences. Use less modifiers. Simplify your syntax in general. Think carefully before using any word with more than 4 syllables.

>>20843404
Literally how does F Gardner keep winning?

>>20843628
There was never any mystery Gardner, just like your "books" of copypasta'd /x/ threads.

>>20843655
Cope. Shilling yourself on 4chan is the opposite of winning Frank.

>>20843404
Clearly Goodreads is all just Gardner.

>>20842321
This is hilarious. Why does 2nd person sound like someone trying to sell me something?
>you will feel this

>>20843716
He's reviewed his own books several times. I guarantee it.

>>20843667
So your just going to ignore the fact that the entire Goodreads website is now shilling Call of the Crocodile?

>>20843777
Don’t bother talking to him. This guy spams the generals every time F Gardner or Call of the Crocodile is mentioned. Just report and ignore.

>>20843777
I don't need other people to tell me what I think about books I've read so I've not in fact confirmed that as a fact.

>>20843785
How's that working out for you Gardner?

Whenever I sit down to write, I either feel like a genius or a fucking retard. There's no in-between. Today is a retard day.

>>20842667
'Will' is an auxiliary verb, not a tense.

>want to include an antagonistic cult
>have no idea what the cult's beliefs even are
Am I doing it right? Should I have figured out a belief system and then said "this is what a cult would believe in"? Is there a proper order of operations to these things?

>>20843945
Interesting theory. Shame it's not true.

>>20843945
Pseud. Periphrastic tenses exist in English and in many languages.

>>20843938
Same. Worst part is that I never know for sure until I actually start writing. It's a goddamn gamble.

>>20842861
No. Slice of life only works for Manga, because you can admire the nice illustrations. Typical stories need more conflict. Unless you're writing poetry or something.

>>20843592
Your question is too vague. Post some writing as an example.

>>20843938
Been going through this hard all month. 50k into one project and have a crystal clear path to finish and I'm excited by it, but sitting down just nothing seems to come out as good as I want it to. I have no doubt that I'll finish it but I feel my pace slowing to half of what it has been the last ~5 months.

>>20843938
Same
I often feel completely worthless as I struggle through writing my daily minimum, and the moment I read it over I feel like a gigabrain

>>20844082
Sometimes you can't do anything but write and fix it later. At least then you're always slowly refining the text until it's perfect from front to back.

>>20843978
>Periphrastic tenses exist in English
No. A tense is inflectional. It changes the verb in some way, generally with a suffix. Using another word to indicate futurity does not change the tense.

Also, the modal auxiliary verb 'will' is a common way to indicate futurity, bot not the only option.

>>20844003
I think even in slice of life the stakes are still there but they are immaterial, things like regret and shame. Even though I do have some far weightier conflict in what I'm writing, one of the earliest conflicts I introduce is that the main characters didn't dance at their wedding because they come from backgrounds that don't dance. But one early scene shows the wife start dancing alone (poorly) to a music her husband doesn't even know she likes.
I was hoping not for it to just be something cute but for readers to really get invested in seeing her finally dance with her husband because it means so much to her being this stupid dream that she thinks will never come true. Most of the conflict in the story deals with self-actualization like that, but some characters are really violent about the person they've become.

>>20844201
>A tense is inflectional
Midwit bunk. So I suppose spoken French, German, and Italian have no past tense, then? There are inflectional tenses, and there are periphrastic tenses. This is common knowledge to linguists.

Since you have to write a proposal to a traditional publisher before it gets greenlighted, and you're actually allowed to publish a book, which prompts will work in today's markets? I'm planning on writing a book in a journal like format about a man who becomes increasingly schizophrenic in isolation, which is occasionally interrupted by letters, emails and notes from other people from the outside world, who all comment on his erratic behavior in order to give it some perspective. If I proposed a book with this prompt, would a publisher even give it a look?

>>20843275
Not interested thank you.
Maybe try reading some homosexual self help guides on picking up other men on the internet?

>>20844414
>I'm planning on writing
Stopped reading right there

>>20844414
Queries involve more than just that. You have to be professional and to the point. Hook them with the high-concept and comp titles first. Don't even explain the story in detail until the second paragraph, they don't want those details immediately. They want the most interesting flavor of the story in a short sentence that they can immediately appreciate. Your third paragraph needs to show your experience writing or working around writers, if you have any. There are lots of publishers who take first time authors, just be honest about what you've done before.

>>20844449
I need to know what I'm getting into before I begin. I don't want to start writing with an insane prompt, and then realize 20,000 words later that absolutely no one is going to publish what I've just written.
>>20844454
Thank you!

>>20844414
You’re talking about fiction right? Fiction doesn’t work like that. Proposals are for nonfiction. For fiction you have to have a completed manuscript.

>>20844467
I'm talking about fiction, yes. My bad, I shouldn't have used the word "Proposal". What I meant was, when preparing to write a book, are there any topics which are guaranteed to not be given a second look? Is there such a thing as "too esoteric" when it comes to publishing works of fiction? I feel that most modern fiction follows a standard template, with clear heroes, villains, character arcs and character goals. I'm worried that if I stray from this template, my finished manuscript will be non-publishable. I mentioned a prompt, because I figured that my prompt might render my manuscript non-publishable by default.

>>20844290
English grammarians define a tense as inflectional. I don't know how other euros do it. They may use different terminology.

>>20844521
>English grammarians
Pseudoscience, nor are they even that much in agreement. Nor would they be meaningfully binding if in agreement, because English has no widely recognized regulatory organization as French does.
Tense, mood, and aspect can all be denoted by inflection or by periphrasis.

>>20841416
any fantasy/sci-fi where the main protagonist tries damn every living thing to an eternity of objective suffering for no particular reason other than that it’s possible?

>>20844584
You mean where the protagonist is AM from I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream?

>>20844550
Even if you're right, and that definition is overly strict, it still wouldn't matter to English. We don't have a specific hardcoded construction for the future tense, as we do with the perfect and continuous aspects. (Have verbed. Am verbing.)

"Will" is very common, but modal auxiliaries are not the only way to talk about the future.

>Your father's plane arrives here tomorrow. We're all going to pick him up at the airport.
Both of these refer to the future, but are in the present tense. 'Tomorrow' is a complement to tell you the time. The second sentence relies on context.

>I work out.
Further, the simple present tense usually describes something habitual that takes place in the past, present, and future.

So more accurately, we have a past tense and a non-past tense.

>>20844584
Roko's Basilisk?

I have to stop reading modern short stories. They all have this "Iowa MFA" style and it's rubbing off on me.

>>20844706
>Iowa MFA style
what are the characteristics of that, out of curiosity

>>20844706
>"Iowa MFA" style
Can you please elaborate? I'm not sure I can spot it

I brought some copies of my book into work for the only customers that actually supported me and believed in me and I think they're bringing a little something in for me on my next shift to say thanks because I didn't charge them. They even asked me to sign them for them. The whole thing was lovely desu.

We're all gonna make it. Just drink a gallon of milk a day.

>>20844858
I have a few coworkers cheering me on too though I think some of them aren't in my target audience.

>>20844639
That’s the premise of Call of the Crocodile

>>20842092
You know damn well the jannies won't do anything about advertising/shilling/spamming.

>>20844627
>We don't have a specific hardcoded construction for the future tense, as we do with the perfect and continuous aspects. (Have verbed. Am verbing.)
So this guy comes up to me and tries to tell me that for a configuration of time, mood, and aspect to count as tense proper, it must have a unique inflectional form to express it. Get outta here! What's he gonna do, learn Esperanto?
It's your definition that's overly strict and moreover anglocentric. It would lead to absurd conclusions such as spoken German having no past tense. Tense, mood, and aspect are all sometimes optional, sometimes mandatory characteristics of a verb that can fall inside or outside of its morphology.

>>20842624
The Bible is for people that want to defend incest.

From Genesis 19:
[30] And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
[31] And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
[32] Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
[33] And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
[34] And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our Father.
[35] And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
[36] Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

>>20842092
Announcing reports is a ban-able offense and what your doing. I bet your the same sperg who freaks out over pic related and derails every thread.
Just ignore this redditor, everyone. He doesn’t belong here and will soon realize it.

>>20842773
Actually, Abraham's wife Hagar was originally his slave (the infamous "handmaiden", actually). So, sentient and non-hylic.

>>20845026
Now show us the part where it says that the product of this incest were two of the "asshole evil pagan" tribes that Israel exterminates later in the OT

>>20842850
Genesis 17.23-27: Everyone in Abraham's household got circumcised, regardless of age or status.
Where did you get the idea it was just slaves?

>>20843404
Gardner got banned from Goodreads for review spam.
Over 2000 of his reviews were removed at the same time.
He's not being promoted on Goodreads, and the only one promoting him on 4chan is HIM.
And he got his ass handed to him the last time he tried to do this. >>20815410

>>20845067
You just spammed this in another thread and that’s not true. F Gardner has been posting status updates for the past few days on Goodreads.

>>20844414
"Behead All Satans" already did that.
The author gives it away for free.

>>20845037
Obviously, the jannies aren't banning anybody, because Gardnerspamming is allowed to continue without let or hindrance.

>>20845074
This. Also if F. Gardner was banned Goodreads wouldn’t be promoting his books.

Is it possible for me to enter the /lit/ canon if I use a female pen name?

>>20845084
Stopping Call of the Crocodile threads would be like stopping The Greeks threads. It just ain’t gonna happen. It’s been a /lit/ meme too long. CotC came out in 2020 and I think there are more threads than ever. Not to mention Reddit and Goodreads are finding out about that book.

>>20844706
Third request for the Iowa MFA style. Or if there's a short story you read that really exemplifies that.

>>20845101
It's not a meme.
It's just Gardner stroking himself in public.
Literally no one cares about Gardner but himself.
And he already got his account suspended on Reddit... see https://reddit.com/comments/j7poea

I posted this in the last /wg/ but it's worth another shot. To the anon who encouraged me a few weeks back to keep going on my chapbook about pirates, thank you. I reworked it into a short story and am getting it published.

>>20845101
Your spam threads are presently getting deleted from /lit/, loser.
The jannies are finally back from their break.
And for the record, you're not buying 4chan.
Your spammy posts on /biz/ were removed by the moderator, except one, which was moved to /bant/ .
That's how much respect they have for your interest...NONE.
You are a LARPer, a phony, and a nobody.

>>20845040
You'll have to quote chapter and verse regarding that.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Moabites.html
That doesn't seem to be mentioned here.
In fact, Ruth, a Moabite, is one of the few women mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:5).
In conclusion...not only does the Bible not condemn incest, but an incestuous relationship is literally in Jesus' genealogy.
Cope.

>>20845098
I'm using a racially diverse, gender ambiguous name. Let's see what happens

>>20845163
in the bible many people were demihumans and intermarriage could cause problems like gigantism, incest was probably considered the lesser evil to taking a foreign wife and bearing offspring who may not even be fertile

>>20845047
>just slaves
where are you reading that?
>And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him
jews are filthy genital mutilators that perform a sacrificial blood ritual to their demon god by destroying an entire lifetime of sexual pleasure. they do this to their children and to their slaves because they hate humans and human nature. the objective is to hurt people. they're worse than vermin, essentially.

Doing well men. Writing well. Audience pushing 20k across 4 platforms. Releasing book soon.

>>20845037
the earth isn't flat and you're a talentless hack with rich parents

>can't rewrite my book fast enough due to psychological strain
>not a thing an editor can help with
>would rather commit suicide than give up
>breaks, therapy and meds have done nothing

What even can I do at this point?

>>20845245
In other words, you can't actually say where the Bible supports your point about the Moabites.
>>20845250
>where are you reading that?
I didn't say that; >>20845047 did.

>>20845250
the bible is plagiarized from hermetic texts and hermes was a redheaded greek philosopher you stupid fuck

>>20845304
>greek
No. the greeks correctly viewed circumcision as a most horrific, barbaric practice

>>20845304
The ripoff goes earlier than that.
Jesus was plagiarized from Horus.

>>20845323
jesus is horus you idiot, christianity is egyptian religion

366 words tonight lads. Spent too much time playing Pokémon Unite. We'll catch up.
>>20845293
Give us your tips. Are you the fella who goes to influencers and does short YouTube videos?

>>20845351
Don’t know that man. I do create youtube book reviews though.

>>20845337
I don't know why you keep calling me an idiot when we apparently agree.

Tonight's sermon:
Genesis 24.2: Abraham told another man to fondle his balls!
24.9: Then he did!

>>20845372
>I don't know why you keep calling me an idiot

it's fun

>>20845354
This is this fag

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_GKrR9P-1KNi0B-0MrP6pA

Good evening boys.
I've been getting to finally writing down my most recent proyect, but I'd like to sample some ideas from you lot.
The story is about a group of people enduring a catastrophe, so most of it is narrated through the POV of the survivors, who once they get to safety are instructed by their rescuers to write down their experience, like a memoir...or a journal?

Because of this, most parts of my story are handled switching from one person's account to the other. I have an idea on how I want to do this, but what would you suggest?
>It could be done like in Dracula, picrel (https://files.catbox.moe/wfkx55.png))

>It could be done like mini books where each survivors tells their perspective on the story, picrel (https://files.catbox.moe/htl70n.png))

>It could be done from the perspective of the person interviewing the survivors and writing down his understanding of the events, picrel (https://files.catbox.moe/cnibp2.png))

Personally, I'm leaning for the first option, but idk, I wanna hear what others think. Besides that, what'd be a good word for these segments? Journals, memoirs, accounts...

>>20845392
He’s not one of us.

>>20845436
One of us! One of us!

>>20844751
>>20844754
>>20845115
Not that anon but have a read of Cusk's Outline, that's the pinnacle of it I believe

>>20845243
You'll end up getting caught like the four Spanish guys who larped as a woman writer.

Anyone drop a story because you realize it wont be longer than 12k words or so?

>>20845473
No, nothing wrong with novellas.

>>20845466
But they became famous first.
And if there's anything modern society likes to reward, it's frauds and failures.

>>20845473
What's with the aversion to short stories?
I have written well over 100 short stories, and two novels.

>>20845498
>>20845480
I can't put it on Amazon to sell.

>>20845549
yes you can

>>20845551
but my story is smutty

>>20845549
Yes you can.
>>20845498
Agreed with this anon. My first story will be no more than 75 pages long.

>>20845579
and?
amazon is full of smut

What would be a better way to kill Molly?
1. A "hunting" accident
2. Garroting her in the forest
3. Poisoning

I don't know which one to use.

>>20845639
Depends on what kind of criminal you are.
If you're an agent 47 kinda hitman, it's the hunting accident.
If you're a smooth, sneaky asshole, go for the poison, and maybe indulge Molly's lust before the venom kicks in
If you're not a professional killer, or are just a psycho, garroting her is enough

After months of editing, I finally found a good opening line. Feels great.
>>20845639
From this scene alone, I would go with poison.

>>20845661
Wanna share with the class?

>>20845639
>Are you the one that is providing the report to the Marquis about the Vermillion Incident.
Stilted. Too formal. Use contractions in dialogue. Don't have her call it The Vermillion Incident, just say the Vermillion. She's a country girl, from the description, have her talk like one.
Are you here because of the Vermillion?

>The dingy room gifted to me by Molly provided only a smitten of space to change.
Holy overwrought phrasing. Simplify, simplify.
The cramped, dingy room had little space to change.
The peeping, horny country girl I don't think should be embarrassed in the last paragraph. She's practically creaming her jeans.

Why, after all that, are you killing Molly and why do you think it needs to be more complicated than bashing her head in and leaving her in a shallow grave. There's no one else there.

>>20845669
>Are you the one that is providing the report to the Marquis about the Vermillion Incident.
>Stilted. Too formal. Use contractions in dialogue. Don't have her call it The Vermillion Incident, just say the Vermillion. She's a country girl, from the description, have her talk like one.
hmm. I didn't think of that. Thanks!

>The dingy room gifted to me by Molly provided only a smitten of space to change.
>The cramped, dingy room had little space to change.
>Holy overwrought phrasing. Simplify, simplify.
He's supposed to be nuts, so I littered phrases of purple prose here and there to hint his insanity and give him some character. I do see what you mean though.
>The peeping, horny country girl I don't think should be embarrassed in the last paragraph. She's practically creaming her jeans.
I don't plan for them to have sex. She'll be masturbating and he'll spy on her, then kill her later.
>Why, after all that, are you killing Molly
Because she asked about the vermillion incident.

>and why do you think it needs to be more complicated than bashing her head in and leaving her in a shallow grave. There's no one else there.
The hunt begins next chapter. He already killed like twelve others.

>>20845665
>I think of my past to discover I have none.
It’s a fictional memoir. I was starting in the middle of nowhere, but decided to add a vague bit about his past to justify its exclusion. No change is definitive, of course, but it reads so much better now.

>>20845067
>Gardner got banned from Goodreads for review spam.
>Over 2000 of his reviews were removed at the same time.
holy shit what a LOSER

Based jannies deleting the anti-Gardner spams. Is this confirmation that he actually is buying 4chan or did he just say that as a 5D chess move to sell more copies of Call of the Crocodile?

>>20845686
>He's supposed to be nuts
In that case I'd change it to make it seem like he thinks she's spying on him with nefarious intent, but really she's just horny and rather than being shy about it she should be a little more forward and he should misinterpret that as a plot to get close to him, and he kills her because of that. Basically I'd rework the phrase starting:
>I knew then my physique was not the object of her curiosity...as expected the immediate sound of feet shuffling confirmed my suspicions. A clear view for the curious or, in this case, the criminally minded. I stepped out to confront my ill intentioned host.

>>20845706
Gardner posts status updates on GR. He’s not banned.

>>20845706
See

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22803971-i-m-interested-in-buying-4chan

>>20845716
I like that idea but much too early I think. I'll finish the chapter and repost it later

>>20845067
LOL

>>20845706
Hate to break it to you but Goodreads is officially shilling Call of the Crocodile now.

>>20845716
I got it! Thanks anon!

Currently thinking out a book, the second half of which will take place in the Russian Army in Ukraine. In the first half, our main character works on a fishing boat in the Black Sea that sinks. The boat and the war are both just backdrops to exploring the key idea of the book, which is heroism. Anyway, here is a small excerpt:

Anisimov was an anomaly, a relic of Chechnya who had rode our rusted, smoking BTRs when they were still new. As a rule, the Army in those days didn`t tolerate career NCOs. Men like Anisimov were supposed to commission as real officers or get out. Yet here he was, a Staff Sergeant commanding a rifle squad at 40. In the Russian Army, Anisimov was an impossible anomaly, a freak of military standards whose shoulder boards turned heads everywhere. No one could figure out why he was still around, but the word was that his superiors -most recently Kozlovsky- had always taken a liking to his incredible toughness. Indeed, his sheer grit was the characteristic by which every man among us would most remember him. The whole company was rife with wild stories about our old man. Some said that he travelled to Chechnya himself at 17 and talked his way into a column, actually enlisting after months of combat. Some said that his grandfather had stood on the roof of the Reichstag in Berlin at the end of World War 2. Some said he had worn the same boots since the battle of Grozny. Some said he was partial to the taste of raw nettles. The further you got from our squad, the more spectacular the stories got. A story from Kryuchkov`s third squad held that he slept upside down like a bat. Like the rest of the second squad, I witnessed the full character of this old war horse many times in peace, and many more at war. A story that comes to mind was from the week before we shipped out for Ukraine. We were on the floor of the barracks, stripping, cleaning, wiping, and re-greasing our weapons for the thousandth time with a lubricant called Brodskiy. At that moment, cleaning was a neccessary distraction from our approaching fate. Plum could now disassemble and reassemble the machine gun in less than 15 seconds. Notably absent was Anisimov. After some time, he stepped out of the sleeping quarters, fitted out in neat civillian clothing that was as natural on his shoulders as horns on a horse. He passed us by on his way to the door. "I can`t go to war", he said, "without getting some pussy". Then he stopped, looked straight at me, and said, "I`m gonna need to borrow that Brodskiy". He was dead serious. He stuffed the can into his jacket pocket, walked out the door, and wasn`t seen till stand-to the next morning. We stared after him wide-mouthed, not knowing whether to be amazed or appalled, our expressions manifesting the twisted combination of both emotions. Life in Anisimov`s squad was never easy. He had seen too much to take any shit from conscripts.
cont...

>>20845913
...
But, conditions in the Russian army aren`t known to be particularly conducive to life, and, in comparison to other leaders, Anisimov was at least consistent, if not precisely fair. Though too uncaring to give a damn about the actions of the weapons company, he was also too apathetic to extort us himself. Though he flew into a violent rage over unclean weapons or uncreased trousers, he wasn`t concerned with how you walked, wore your cap, or any of the other myriad little rules of dedovshchina. And through it all, as we would soon find, Staff Sergeant Konstantin Anisimov was one hell of a tough old soldier.

>finally putting pen to paper, fleshing out the world for the story I've had brewing for a while
>find the backstory of the two major gods just as, if not more interesting than the story I initially had planned
This is rather unfortunate, now I want to write them both.

I'm about four chapters in to my story, and it's not very good. I can see a lot of things wrong with it (plot, pacing, descriptions of minute details that don't really matter etc.). Do you guys think that ANY writing is constructive or do you think that you have to be actively thinking about devices and techniques as you write to improve? Is the fact that I'm noticing things that are bad about my writing enough of a benefit for continuing this story to be worthwhile?

>>20844754
>>20844751
>>20845115
Minimalist writing that's overly safe, as in doesn't even try to do anything interesting in the text. The author is conpletely missing from the text and the "show don't tell" mantra is taken to extremes. The themes are often isolation, ennui, unrequitted love and unhappy couples. The point of the story is so well hidden you can barely figure out what it's about, if at all. Generally the kind of writing that you can tell was honed at writer's workshops filled with rich college students who've got nothing better to do with themselves than enter an MFA program and try to become writers without any real deep drive to become one. The kind of stories regularly published in the New Yorker.

The stories of Lorrie Moore are a good example. I actually like them, but don't want to write like them. Most short story collections released in the past decade fall into this category.

>>20846156
I called it the Iowa MFA style because universities there were one of the birthing places of this writing focused MFA programs, where this stylenof writing was taught and popularized. Some of them are still famous for them and bored upper middle class kids going to college go there to become writers. It actually started in the 70s and 80s but the influence only really started to be felt once those who graduated from there started teaching elsewhere. You can read more about the whole thing (can't link anything right now, sorry), but the point is that the contemporary american minilaist style of writing mainly spread from there.

>>20846118
Generally you should have an idea of your plot or story and keep it in mind, and when you start a scene, know what the purpose of the scene is to serve the plot or story (preferably both) and if it doesn't serve either, consider cutting it.

>>20846174
>write fantastic scene
>it's the most fantastically written, poetic, insightful sequence of words you've ever committed to paper
>doesn't "serve the plot"
>doesn't "serve the story"
>"No. You have to delete it. Everything is subservient to plot and story. How do you expect to get a Hollywood adaptation and generate a million units of United Statesean currency if you don't Progress The Plot?"
B U G M A N

>>20846201
Yes anon. This is what "killing your darlings" means. You love what you've made but it doesn't serve the plot so you cut it.

>>20846241
>you need to kill your darlings, anon... because your darlings are......... LE BAD!!!!

>>20846248
Yes.

>>20846253
Aesthetic minimalism is not an intrinsic truth, but a passing literary phase. Plot-centric writing creates monetary success at best. Money doesn't signify artistic value. Your opinions aren't truth.

>>20846263
Kill your darlings is a sacred mantra, just like show don't tell or don't use passive voice.

>>20846201
Clearly your reading comprehension is too low to write anything anyway. I know you're probably baiting but as soon as I hit post I knew someone would say this shit. Notice that I said "consider" cutting it, obviously you can have some bloat and it can add great character to your work, but too much of it and you risk writing meandering slice of life or the work feeling unfocused.

>>20846273
Literature doesn't need to be hyper-focused.

>>20846281
Okay. We don't disagree.

>>20846286
So, if literature doesn't need to be hyper-focused, then the advice to cut (sorry — to, uh, "consider" cutting) anything that doesn't drive plot or story is...

>>20846273
Different anon here but I don't follow. Surely a scene that actually matters isn't bloat and this can be accomplished without writing something completely irrelevant?

>>20846309
If it makes you feel any better, he probably has no clue what he's talking about either. As a writer, you should learn foremost of all a suspicion when it comes to people spouting the Common Wisdom. There exist people who have more nuanced and thoughtful conceptions of said Common Wisdom, but most have just sucked it directly out of the puckered ass hole of the last Common Wisdom Fan encountered. If it matters to you, it matters. Obviously, don't use that as a blank check to stop giving a fuck about the quality of your work, but the operate part of Common Wisdom is how common it is. Beware anyone regurgitating the "sacred mantra," per this >>20846267 anon.

>>20846318
>operate
Operant

When I was a kid, I had two frogs
A curious lad I was, one day decided
To flush them both down the toilet
Felt no remorse, just disappointment, of course,
Seeing their debasement, their refusal to swim, the amount of time wasted.
My fear of castration
Emboldened and self-repeated
By the frogs I flush down the toilet.

>>20846309
>surely a scene that actually matters isn't bloat
of course
>and this can be accomplished without writing something completely irrelevant
of course
I don't understand where the contradiction is.

Day 65 editing
Just a couple more days i swear...
Tell me lads, what is writing like?
It's been so long i cant remember!

>>20846334
It doesn't contradict, but what I'm asking is this: If you can write such a beautiful scene how the fuck are you incapable of making it relevant to the story? I have a bunch of them and they're only beautiful because of how relevant they are to the characters.

>>20846318
Yeah, I definitely get that some people just parrot something without being able to articulate the scenarios in which it's detrimental.

>>20846339
If you can twist the scene to be relevant, or twist the story to be relevant, then it's perfectly fine if that's what you want to do and you think it benefits your work because it does serve the story (of which the characters are almost certainly a major part of). However in my case I've been known to digress on things or scenes that explore some aspect of a character or theme that ultimately doesn't, and never will, matter in this story. So then I usually look at it for a while before reluctantly cutting it, not to "kill my darlings" as the other anon put it, but usually to explore somewhere else in another work another time.

>>20846339
>If you can write such a beautiful scene how the fuck are you incapable of making it relevant to the story?
Because story and characters are only tangential to good writing — to writing which, in and of itself, has a good quality. Writing is the medium, story and characters are what the medium depicts. Mastery of the medium is paramount. Fifteen minutes after posing for the Mona Lisa, the woman herself wandered off to find some privacy, dropped her panties, and took a big, stinky shit. She probably wiped with her hand. She was nothing without da Vinci.

I am not a chomo, and I know this for certain
Why else would three of such innocence be sent to in-patient?
Thrice, on the eve of his bar mitzvah
He confided in me
"Tell me a tale, tell me a story!"
I grinned sadly, and shyed away
You are not my problem, you never were
I am not a chomo, I know this for certain
Just a predisposition
To tugging at the primal
Of young boys I meet online
I've done it now thrice, and each time I regret it
But I know I know what their problem is, and how to fix it!
I know I can be the most lindy man alive
(A quality most cherished by the children they sire)
If I can just avoid raping another boy.

How do I write a rich medieval state that isn't just "gold mines"

>>20846402
They have access to the sea and can collect that shell you make purple dyes from
Also silkworms or lapis lazuli

>>20846402
Fertile lands, access to sea trade routes, general abundance of natural resources outside of gold

>>20846416
>Fertile lands
Ukraine has been a poor shithole for it's entire history

>>20846402
BANKS

>>20846427
banks?

>>20846449
Yes, banks! They create money out of nothing! Compounded interest is truly frightening.

>>20846361
I see. It does make sense that you might have something to say about the character that doesn't advance the story a lot, it seemed bizarre to me initially as the values my characters hold do matter and the most my story might meander is when characters travel and take in the scenery - Then again, it might seem tangential but the way my protagonist sees this world is ultimately important in the end.

>>20846368
What a fine lady!

>>20846389
Get some help, dude.

>>20846174
Yeah I need to work on plotting out chapters. I have a rough idea of a story, but I'm kind of discovery writing it anyway. But you're right, I need to have an idea of what the chapter will be about before I write (which I generally do) but I also need to have it more structured.

Can't get a fucking word out
I hate this damn novel i write like a second grader

>>20846528
The poem is from the perspective of someone who raped me as a child.

>thinking about referencing one song I think is romantic hopefully so the musically inclined may recall it and sing it in their head
>look up where else it has appeared in pop culture since radio stations dont really count
>ever since the 90s it has only been in comedies, usually ironically
Damn I wonder how the average reader would react because I don't intend on it being funny.

>>20846582
>referencing one song I think is romantic hopefully so the musically inclined may recall it and sing it in their head
Don't do that. It's incredibly fucking tasteless.

>>20846639
Okay I wont. It had just thought about how else it might effect the scene so I figured the character would just be mumbling vague lyrics to herself and music isnt even playing.

>>20846171
>>20846156
Ahh. Reminds me of all the engineers I've met who love Ernest Hemingway's iceberg theory but only use it as an excuse to hide that they don't know how to write with florid prose.

>>20846750
>engineers
I've run into so fucking many engineers who want to engineer a novel that I can recognize the mindset from just a few sentences. They inevitably write neat and tidy little novels that — when not completely worthless — dart adroitly from one "story beat" to the next, make sure a ten year old couldn't possibly get drowned in a puddle of nuance, and display precisely nothing that differentiates them from the next engineer-novelist who follows the exact same protocols. It's incredibly fucking boring.

>>20846402
My rich medieval state primarily exports granite.

>>20846750
>>20846772
That's exactly what I mean by the Iowa MFA style.
I found two articles I read a while ago about the topic. It's not the entire story, but gives you an idea of the whole writer program effect.

https://erikhoel.substack.com/p/how-the-mfa-swallowed-literature

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/mfa-creative-writing/462483/

>>20846809
Did you really just link your substack here and try to pass it off as someone elses?

>>20846857
No, I don't have one. It's impossible to link a substack post here without people thinking you are shilling yourself. The Atlantic article is by me however...

>>20846898
Yo soobstacker, I'm thinking of starting a book review thing on substack. Is the platform conducive to that for building a following?

>>20846934
I recommend printing your book reviews on paper and distributing them from tall buildings on windy days via free delivery.

>>20846772
I'm not trying to be argumentative but just for clarification what does "nuance" in a story mean for you?

>>20846273
oh no!!!! a "risk!!!!!!"

this is at the heart of all this retarded "writer's self-help" advice that gets repeated endlessly in every place devoted to writing. preemptively worrying yourself sick about criticism you haven't received yet for writing you more often than not haven't even written.

For some reason, my Google Docs doesn't underline any spelling or grammar errors that I'm making any more. Every option that I know of is checked for it to do this but there are neither red nor blue lines telling me my errors. Only when I click on a word, I get a suggestion to correct it, but I can't click on every word in my document to detect possible errors. How to fix this?

>>20846975
Subtlety, openness to interpretation, conceptual gradation, depth. Elegance. To contrast, see F. G*rdn*r's allusions to Dante, which go something like:
>Tommy was feeling very hot. The hotness reminded him of the Inferno, which is from Dante's Inferno. Dante's Inferno was a piece of fiction written by Dante. Tommy's experience of the heat was infernal... as if he were in Dante's Inferno.
I'm (only fucking slightly) exaggerating for effect here, but that is the most straightforward and unnuanced writing I can possibly imagine. Nuance is, in so many words, providing your reader with a certain scene, description, whatever, and then allowing them to interact with your writing instead of beating them over the head with it. Engineers are infamous for their lack of nuance.

Is attempting tradpublishing even worth it?

I got something in the works and was just thinking of sticking it on Amazon with a nice cover and shilling it a bit via ads

>>20846201
if anything you should do the opposite. all the plot shit is just an excuse to write beautiful things and should be bent to accommodate their existence.

>>20847058
It's worth it if you want it. If I spent a few years writing a book, I'd want to make sure I at least tried trad pub if I thought it could find a market.

>>20847060
Agreed. Plot and story are the hurdles you have to leap in order to get to the things you actually give a shit about. I prefer to set those hurdles as low as I can.

>>20841416
Posting for feedback:

Butterflying


Butterfly butterfly
With wings of yellow and green
Why do you pass me by

Going so fast
Moving, moving,
Closer to the earth than the sky

The flowers see you
Can you feel their loving gaze
Can you hear them cry

You pause there
Just for a moment
Will you recall this in the time before you die

I hope,
hoping against all hope,
That you do

Lets show off our writing spaces. I've been writing at the same desk for years.
This isn't mine, but I'll clean and post mine if others join in.

Would appreciate critique for my post
Any suggestions are welcome and helpful

>>20847081

>>20847090
Not TOO bad. But the first stanza (idk if this is the correct English term) sets you up that there will be some sort of rhyme scheme (butterfly-by), but you get disappointed because there is none.
Also, the last stanza has potential to be strong, considering your penultimate stanza is good in my opinion, but you've made it be pretty weak. For some reason, "hoping against all hope" doesn't do it for me.

>>20847065
I heard that the odds are just way too stacked and the book is extremely niche so im not sure

Publishers like safety and broad appeal and this doesn't have that

>>20847109
That is giga comfy. I write everywhere from my car on old, disused roads to coffee shops, to a desk I have overlooking the shitty apartment complex in which I live.

>>20847114
That's just a list of things. I have no idea what the actual content is.

>>20847122
Do you ordinarily write digitally or pen and paper?

>>20847109
I'll post mine when I get home. It's nothing much but it's mine.

Are there any good books on writing humorous stories?

>>20847126
im asking you to assess the list in terms of completeness so far

my goal is just to accumulate links from the internet as guides to start
so it's just topics you'd like eto see or are useful

>>20847226
Produce some content instead of just building an endless list of ideas.

>>20847244
i do have a bunch of content written down but that's not what im interested in being judged right now

i could link it but i dont see any point in you critiqueing it since theres nothing specific for you so far

otherwise you would have answered i guess

>>20847223
writingexcuses.com has a few episodes on humor
there might be some articles on google or videos on youtube
it's a acquired skill and talent like writing poetry.

>>20847311
Is there no speed-up function? I listen to everything at 2x

>>20847360
Anon...did you even try? Even if it didn't, you could just download it and do it with your own player.

>>20847109

>>20847373
Nice. Does that table swing so it's directly in front of you? Or do you have severe scoliosis

>>20847370
I did try to find it but nvm you're right I forgot I could download it

>>20847373
Redpill me on Don DeLillo

>>20847380
No, unfortunately. I always have it at an angle like that. It's not as uncomfortable as it looks, I promise. It's worth it for being able to write as I'm lying down.
>>20847389
He's pretty cool. If you want to get into him, start with either White Noise or The Angel Esmeralda before reading Underworld.

>>20846426
>Ukraine has been a poor shithole for it's entire history
Retard. Ukraine is literally where the steppe people who's language we all speak came from.

Got a question about switching PoVs mid chapter, why and how do you think it might work? Right now I'm sort of struggling to balance out the personalities of all my PoV characters and I quite like the idea of pitting two of them in the same dangeros, snappy-decision making sitation at the same time, and showing half their encounter from one perspective then the other.

It would go something along the lines of:

>'I'll take left, you go center!' Mick yelled, as he barreled down the hallway, through the mist. The stuff was hard against his lungs, harder still his eyes. Couldn't see a damn foot in front of him. Before long, the rattle of his rucksack faded from earshot, leaving Dave in in the hefty silence of the main atrium. His eyes scanned the high balconies, itching to spot any hint of movement. Bootleather creeked against the aged flagstones, coursing as a grone through the hollow, crumbling hall.

Might be a shoddy example but its the best I can come up with off the top of my head.

>>20847563
Mongolian?

>>20847565
That works fine. Personally I'd do something like switching paragraphs when switching a PoV and establishing the switch right at the start of the new paragraph but yours is a perfectly natural transition.

i've recently been considering writing, at least as a hobby. i'm not getting any younger..
i then consider how many hours i have to invest, despite this.
and for just a moment the fact that i wasted the last 20 years of my life and that my future is not secure even before considering something like this, there was a tiny moment of existential dread.
then i remembered how good i have it, but it kind of made me feel worse. that i could feel this way, despite most people who have ever existed, were lucky if they weren't just surviving day to day, living for the sake of it.
maybe ill just write and not think about real life. my goal is to enjoy it like i enjoy fucking around.

>>20847706
>my goal is to enjoy it like i enjoy fucking around.
Writing isn't always enjoyable, anon. It's famously difficult, and pretty much any writer you ask will tell you the same. Gaddis famously likened novel writing to taking care of an invalid. That's what makes it so rewarding.

>>20847057
Yeah I see what you mean. I try to obscure what I write about by half-quoting things, one word allusions, imagery and things like that. I did mention that one novel Salvage the Bones earlier and although I liked it, there was often a lack of nuance with the some scenes because Esch goes "he does this and it was JUST like that squirrel from yesterday." Happens at least four times and while it didnt annoy me exactly it did come off as the voice of studious teenager (which the character is) forced at gunpoint to draw comparisons with ever scene in her life as if it were a work of art she had to write a paper on. I think McCarthy did it way better by having some scenes so close together you shouldnt miss the symbolism but Ive found in discussions many readers often will miss it if its not plainly stated. I'd rather do it like McCarthy does, not telling you where its significant but let you search for it.

>>20847058
Self-pub is overwhelmingly not worth it. Let me tell you this as someone who is close to a number of self published authors on this board. I would always recommend shaking the tradpub tree until the rejections have made you suicidal.

I wrote a follow up to a noir story I posted here a while back. Probably going to follow this work to its natural conclusion. A little parrelel narrative featuring vignettes from the past alongside a throughline narrative following his life as a reformed criminal trying to do right despite having zero inclination to or desire for performing acts of valor.

It's flash fiction length again
https://pastebin.com/dA7umvky

>>20847731
everyone is different, anon and the difference between me and gaddis is that i'm not dead

>>20847747
>Self-pub is overwhelmingly not worth it.
Do tell more.

Looking for the best books on scriptwriting. Help me out, I've got a bet to win.

>>20847058
I'd like to think that my work is high quality enough to be considered by traditional publishers. First thing I'm doing after I (((eventually))) finish and meticulously edit my first peice is ball gargling publishers until I get rejected at least 1000 times. After that, on the net it goes, probably on a place like RR or Scribblehub so that I can get free eyes on my shit, and try to go the way of tradpub with the second instalment.

>>20847602
Now that you mention it, paragraph switching might actually be even better. I'll consider that too, cheers!

>>20847781
how can i help humble you before you waste your time?

>>20847795
how much writing have you done?

>>20847805
Oh I have no delusion of being a scriptwriter professionally. What I need it for is ||a youtube-video||. I want to learn structure of video media and how to write good, clear dialogue that is easy to listen to.

>>20847813
oh, good idea.

>>20847731
>Writing isn't always enjoyable, anon. It's famously difficult,
Maybe if your goal is to craft a story for others to read or one that will sell well. I have over a dozen novels finished and I've enjoyed every second brainstorming and writing them. If he just wants to have fun, there is plenty of fun to be had.

>>20847772
Let's first consider a few things that I believe are facts but you may disagree with. There are very few genres that sell on Amazon KDP. They are also genres that thrive in the Amazon Select program, which is essentially a library system for self published books. Let's first consider the drawbacks of this program

You must be exclusive to amazon, you cannot publish on any other platforms. This hurts you severely when trying to get your book on physical shelves as most stores have no desire to buy amazon KDP books. But this is admittedly minor.

This Kindle Select program pays you based on pages read, this means that the only way to make real money is to have a large amount of books out, in order to maximize page reads.

This is all before you consider that about five genres move copy on Amazon Select: LitRPG, Erotic Novels, Military SciFi, Urban Fantasy with Romantic Elements, Cozy Romances with erotic elements. If you are writing in these genres that have momentum on Amazon, prepare to fork the neccesary cash over for a quality cover, put some effort into the blurb, clean up the pages that'll appear in the preview and pray.
If you aren't, I'm gonna suggest doing what I said: shake the tradpub tree. You aren't equipped for the amount of work it takes to sell a self published novel to an audience that exclusively buys tradpublished novels. You are not prepared for the work required to establish yourself as a major personality on whatever social media platform you operate on. You are not prepared for the cost of self service ads. You are not prepared for the costs and effort required to put together a professional release. You aren't prepared for your efforts being rewarded with a measly 5 copies sold to a few friends and 2 reviews, or best case, 20 copies sold after a few months.

If you understand how to convert BSR rankings to copies sold, you can essentially find out how many copies every 4chan author sells. It's basically nothing, even for Gardner. We're talking 4-10 monthly, best case? And he's spent thousands upon thousands on ads, I know because I've run 3 ad campaigns on this site.
Serial novels are a different sort of time waster, but at least people will read your work. Sadly the amount of genres that people read on RR and the like are even slimmer than on Amazon select.

>>20847781
i know you asked for books but there's some good videos on script writing on youtube
often they interview writers who are shilling their books
i can't remember the name atm, but it should turn up in a search

>>20847739
>one word allusions
How's that work? Sounds cool.

>>20847820
Thanks. I had a similar opinion. Different question: How should tradpub authors advertise and network? Can I tradpub and avoid socmed? I want to write literary and genre, and maybe MG and YA too.

>>20847820
>Urban Fantasy with Romantic Elements, Cozy Romances with erotic elements
is that what people are googling? how are they searching for this sort of thing?

and how do you get over the embarrassment of writing something like litRPG?

>>20847811
I've been working on my current story for well over a year at this point. Scrapped it and started from the ground up at least twice, in the meantime I've read all of Abercrombie and Steve Erikson's novels which I think has had a seriously huge impact on the quality of my writing. Barring that I've written a few short stories in the same universe I plan on using as advertisements for my main thing, probably either gonna put them up on Royal Road or send them to some smaller lit magazines when I'm done with drafting. I've posted a few excerpts here that people liked, which I see as a good sign.

>>20847875
The worst part about traditional publishing is how unclear it is. Like, your publisher may not even market particularly hard for you, agents are much more prominent than they used to be etc. You don't need a social media following to be traditionally published, but it helps. The best advice I received from a writer was to talk to people in my university's MFA program, professors and the like. If you're interested in literary fiction, two authors I know started by getting short stories into magazines and eventually publishing a collection.
>>20847911
They're googling "paranormal romance". "Cozy" is a pretty common prefix for a few genres like Mystery. Also I really don't know, I respect the authors of some of the better examples but LitRPG is a really juvenille genre. But it is pretty popular and totally unrepresented in traditional publishing. I was shocked to talk to some tradpub agents who were jsut convinced that there's no market for young male readers when there are many many authors turning over a large salary writing scifi and fantasy for young boys. They just aren't plugged in.

>>20847966
>If you're interested in literary fiction, two authors I know started by getting short stories into magazines and eventually publishing a collection.
Great advice.
>The best advice I received from a writer was to talk to people in my university's MFA program, professors and the like.
I'm not in school.

>>20847966
>paranormal romance
ah, right
>..They just aren't plugged in.
it's why i'm drawn to it. that question re; embarrassment wasn't exactly rhetorical. it's a sort of manga trope fanfic and some of the worst stuff i've read; but the enthusiasm for the genre is wild.
i want in....

>>20847747
Writing in itself isn't worth it if you want to make money. It's just a hobby that people take too seriously thinking they can be the next Rowling.

If you want to be a person that makes moviewsyor something, it's better to just be a script writer

>>20847850
I mean if you take a word that is coined from a book or has a particular meaning from another source I consider that an allusion. In one story I'm doing I use a phrase (two words, but nonetheless) that if you search it is only found in Melmoth the Wanderer. I never even directly refer to the story I just draw ideas from it because the story had a similar theme at certain parts. If you use the term "memoryhole" that is directly evoking 1984 and all the horror that went along with it. There are some words like that you can play with their connotations but for more neutral, lay words you have to work to give them new meaning in your story. I have also used "thrown" in the way Heidegger used it. Didn't even mention his name.

>>20848466
>if your reader knows his shit he gets a treat
>if he doesn't you still win
I dig it thanks for clarifying

>high quality manuscript
>impeccably edited, highly desired genre
>send to agent who requests things exactly like this on his mswl
>write personalized query to massage his ballsack adequately enough that he might grant a lonely peon like myself 4 minutes of his time
>month later i get a form rejection

i'm going insane. maybe self publishing schizos were right all along.

>>20848669
**lowly
dont judge my ms by my 12-second 4chan posts

if i can't get this or the next manuscript published by the fucking retarded industry i'm self publishing i dont even care about money anymore. my story is good and i know it's good. i write what people want to read. the gatekeepers are wrong.

>>20848669
And how many diversity checkboxes do you tick off, if I may ask.

>>20848686
"I could have sold this story 4 years ago" is what you'll get until you get double digit rejections.

>>20848669
>>20848686
Anon, is this your first rejection? You should be sending queries out in batches of 5-10. Most will be stock rejections but you'll also get some personalized responses.
>my story is good and i know it's good. i write what people want to read.
This makes me think your story actually sucks and you're just a narcissist. Either way, I do wish you the best of luck, whether it be trad or self publishing. If you want any more specific advice, feel free to ask.

dialog is so hard
what resources should I read to learn how to think about dialog from more directions? Right now I'm just intuiting and it's not working.

>>20841416
>Edred: "Our history reaches far into the past. Our forefathers bore witness to the glory of the first dawn, banishing the lasting darkness: daring to thread the paths the gods forsook. "
I wrote this sentence today, and now I want to kill myself.

>>20848810
You're probably just autistic.

>>20848819
Or is an intuition for good dialog the realm of excessive empaths who also make politicians and cult leaders? I think I'm normal and can achieve serviceable results via study and careful editing.

>>20848819
This, but to everyone in this thread. Except me, because I have a diagnosis so I get to use #ownvoices and get pity published.

>>20848669
Are you a nigger/spic/pajeet? Are you a woman? Are you a tranny?
If not, then you're not getting published. Make up a pseudonym and lie about what you are.

If I want to submit any short stories, should I always start locally if such an option is available to me?

>>20848847
>excessive empaths
>who also make politicians and cult leaders
No you're fucking high.

>>20848854
Do wheelchair users get diversity points?

>>20848891
Yes, but it likely won't be enough to get you published unless you really play it up

>>20848810
Hang out in public spaces and listen or pay better attention to how your own irl convos go.

>>20848891
"Diversity" means "over-representing black people".

>>20848889
Empathy doesn't imply any sense of morality, that's just what the empaths have tried to tell you through Hollywood (because acting and screenwriting are also professions that the empath is well suited for). In reality, they're just manipulators.

>>20848853
I got diagnosed with Aspies a decade ago with official psychometric testing and while I dont even believe it myself, should I bother pulling the mental illness/capable card? I simply think of it as "I'm a retard" and then forget about it most of the time but bringing up labels like that makes me cringe so maybe not.

>>20848891
Flannery O'Connor died a cripple and she still gets derided by liberals for her Old South religious sensibilities. It all just depends.

>>20848952
>I have too much empathy, that's why I'm a sociopath
I don't know who you think you're fooling psycho but it isn't me

>>20848954
You can't play the disability card for autism lite, they'll just tell you that you have white privilege because you're not full blown mentally retarded like a regular black person.

>>20848954
i think brando sando is on the spectrum at least a little so you're in good company

>>20848954
Only if your story is about your experiences as an aspie.

>>20848954
I mean, if your story has anything to do with a stuttering weirdo like most of mine write what you know etc, it's definitely worth adding to a query letter. I would say "as someone on the autism spectrum" instead, that encompasses everything and they'll never dare to ask your wizard level.

>>20848695
nta but the de-facto main character of my story is a blind guy and a few of the MCs are female. No niggers tho :(

>>20847565
Well in your example it’s not at all clear that a shift in POV has taken place

>>20849075
>main character of my story is a blind guy
This must be really interesting to write. I wrote a fantasy story with a mute main character and I really had to activate my almond to get through certain chapters

Favourite writing software?

>>20848862
You can send it to multiple magazines, most of them are fine with it as long as you let them know if it's accepted by someone else, so I'd say find the best ones where your story would fit and submit to them, don't limit yourself to whatever is local.

>>20849137
Scrivener, though I like writing the first draft by hand.

>>20849011
The cult of empathy is unironically a psyop—just like how Hollywood wants you to think magicians are cool and that gal godot is sexy. Good Christian Americans concern themselves with their own business. Letting unprincipled empaths take charge was the biggest mistake we ever made.

>>20849137
Word for writing. Then adding it to Scrivener during the rewrite for easy manuscript formatting

Is a 100 day word a good one for you?

>>20849181
I'm retarded. I wanted to write:
>Is a 1000 word day a good one for you?

>>20849137
Typora. Good for formating, pleasing to the eye.

>>20849100
Yup. He's supposed to be the head of a religious mission that sets up cults in foreign lands, so he has these two jannies that follow him around and help him sweep up his flock. Pruddy fun.

>>20849327
>>20849327
>>20849327
New bread

>>20849203
kek, it's always funny when authors make such blaring errors in such a short amount of words, but we all do it from time to time. And yes, 1,000 words a day is good for me.

>>20848695
only one. probably you need at least 3 now. if ariana grande can turn into a mexican maybe i should just get a spraytan.
>>20848777
>>20848760
cumulatively it's rejection ~#68 but only #4 on this ms