/lit/ - Literature

>>20843971
Space opera is soap opera in space. Dune is no more than a family drama with sandworms

on the tele, kazuo ishiguro said that the emphasis of creative writing education is on how to hold the readers attention, but it really should be on how to stay in the readers mind after the fact
quite liked that

>>20843986
"Space Opera" originally referred to something more akin to military science fiction. Big setpieces, big ships, big fights, galactic empires, etc. Like Doc Smith's Lensman or, more recently, Banks' Culture.
"A Desolation Called Peace," is literally just a bunch of fags on a space station. It's hardly the same thing.

>>20844024
Military science fiction and space operas are quite the opposite

>>20844035
You clearly haven't watched LTGH

>>20844035
Hardly. Almost every space opera has a substantial military element, including Dune. In the Culture, for instance, the focus of the series is almost entirely on galactic special warfare operatives. (It's the important job humans can do.) And the first book in the series is, debatably, an explicit work of Mil-SF.

>>20844045
No idea what is that. I get my definitions from the books i read.

>>20844035
Ever hear of the term "theater of war", dingbat?

>>20844069
Do you think that's a relevant concept here? Explain yourself
I can name the differences between MSF and SO. Can you?

>>20844065
A lot of mediocre space opera is: "Horatio Hornblower.... but in space."
"A Desolation Called Peace" doesn't even rise to that level. It's just a bunch of dull faggots on a station and hundreds of pages of shit-tier autistic worldbuilding.
Basically, Ishiguro is based. He does it right. But he's not a woman, so he can't win a Hugo award in the current year +7.
Compare him to what does win, though, and whew...

>>20844065
Also, there is a hell of a lot of overlap between space opera and Mil SF. From the Dorsai to The Expanse, almost every space opera series of note features a lot of Mil SF elements.
But this is not the point. Point is, the SF that wins awards these days is basically puerile chick-lit.

I'm trying to find new sci Fi or fantasy to read on Amazon and 90% is woman authors. I don't want women authors and I wish they had a gender filter.

>>20844113
No idea what are you talking about. I guess you are referring to movies? Anyway, i've never seen them.

>>20843971
>Science fiction fandom is retarded and their "awards" are a joke
Okay? Don't know who ask.

>>20844147
This is space opera that has had a transformative effect on the entire subgenre:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsai!
The series was really popular and influential in the 1970s and 80s. Today sadly neglected.
"Lost Dorsai" is perhaps the best short work of Mil SF ever written.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Dorsai
Though the series, on the whole, is basically classical space opera.

>>20844144
> I wish they had a gender filter.
100% agreed.

>Novel that has things I hate is bad
>Novel writen for autists translated from a language in a way that kills any literary complexity it had is good

>>20844223
Ishiguro writes in English. He was born in Japan but moved to England when he was five years old. He didn't return to Japan until he was in his 30s.
Also, it's:
>Novel utterly devoid of literary qualities, and utterly devoid of meaning, is bad.
>Novel rich in meaning, in depth of allegory, and in narrative qualities is good.

>>20844184
Dorsai is Pulp 20-40 years too late. It's cool that you like your forgotten popcorn crap, but it has nothing to make it stand up when competing with all the pulp crap you could be reading. It's just one more in an endless sea.

>>20844323
"The Lost Dorsai" is easily one of the best MilSF short stories ever written, and quite possibly the very best.
The Dorsai novels are typical pulp fare, indeed, if slightly higher quality than the usual stuff. They're a good example, though, of a "space opera" series that has MilSF inclinations...

>>20844223
>novel written for autists
it's a major bestseller, one of the three dozen books you can buy in an airport newsstand
>translated
retard

>>20843971
Isn't Klara set in England?

Don't think I would call it genius but it was a good book. The use of Klara's incomplete understanding of the world and all the subtle transhumanist commentary are what stick in my mind today... but as I read it I found the first third to be much too slow.

>>20843971
Well why don’t you cry about it, saddlebags.

>>20844223
>Ishiguro.... he must be a foreigner
Who's the chud now?

>>20845036
I think it was set somewhere in the Midwest. Rick and his mom have English accents, and that's presented as something unusual and foreign. And, if I recall correctly, the city of Milwaukee is the only city mentioned by name in the book. (Something to do with one of the father's friends.)

>>20843971
this book sucked and I cannot believe i wasted my money on it. Whatever you say is irrelevant garbage and probably the polar opposite is true. Hope this thread dies

>>20846153
You absolutely suck. And you probably didn't understand the book in the first place.
Besides, the point is that from a purely objective standpoint of literary quality, Ishiguro is hundreds of miles above the shit that wins science fiction awards these days.

>>20846202
What is there to understand from a book that has no hidden meaning. The vision from here as an interesting point of how there are different perspectives being considered at once is completely boring and chewed out by literally anyone with a heartbeat. The moment when she was almost turned into a replica of their daughter because of they cant cope with reality wasnt even explored. The ending was also the most laughably boring shit i could have read. My god this book is put on a pedestal because of people like you who think a book you could finally understand is insanely high brow. I hope you perish

>>20846305
>The moment when she was almost turned into a replica of their daughter because of they cant cope with reality wasnt even explored.
Did you even read the book, or just browse the synopsis on Wikipedia? The last third of the book, from the waterfall scene onwards, focuses precisely on this.

>>20846383
I read this book in one day and from what I recall klara learns about this plot to potentially change the girl but they end up not going through with it because the girl gets better. Or am I miss remembering?

>>20846473
change as in replace the girl if she would die

>>20846473
Yes. The plan was literally to have a robot that cannot experience negative emotions replace a human being. It was unfathomably retarded. As is the idea that the super-observant robot somehow continues believing that the sun is a deity. As is the sun magically curing the girl, because love. Guess nobody loved the first daughter enough, huh?

>>20846571
>Yes. The plan was literally to have a robot that cannot experience negative emotions replace a human being.
She experiences negative emotions. Anxiety, fear, trepidation. Pay more attention to what you read. Recall the bull in the field, for instance.
> As is the idea that the super-observant robot somehow continues believing that the sun is a deity. As is the sun magically curing the girl, because love. Guess nobody loved the first daughter enough, huh?
Again you miss the point. The robot performed a sacred ritual to save the girl. It was, actually, a sacrifice in several stages—yet few people see this because it is hidden in plain sight, “just a novel,” not what they believe the sacred to be. The book thus fused the hyper-rationality and prophetic tendencies of science fiction with a circuit through which spiritual energies flow, and which does exist in the heart of innocents.

>>20846594
When I finished reading it I did go back to reading explanations of why it was regarded so greatly because I couldn't believe it to be as boring as it was. And there they explained the same as you did. However, this is not something that hasn't been done before in a better way. Also, using a child/child-like protagonist is almost a sure fire way to make a character retarded and just blame it on them being "innocent" and/or a child which I think is a poor cop-out. I've seen more than enough children in my life come up with very insightful messages (even though they are mostly unaware shitpost generators).

Maybe i'm just very contrarian when discussing this book but I will continue to think that this book doesn't deserve the praise it is getting and forever will be salty about people talking highly of it. I will no stop replying as it keeps this thread up for longer than I even wanted to. Was nice to sort of have a discussion tho

>>20846594
I'm not convinced that she truly experienced any of those. I do pay attention, and that's why I don't get the sense that she's actually experiencing those things. "I felt sadness", she says of Josie's inability to come along. "I felt sadness" is not what people who are actually say.

"I was so alarmed by its appearance that I gave an exclamation and came to a halt. I'd never seen anything which gave, all at once, so many signals of anger and a wish to destroy."

Again, nothing about this prose is conveying a genuine anxiety or terror. It's too calm, too analytical. She is unsettled at best. This continues to be the prose throughout the entire novel. It does not sell the idea of a humanistic robot at all: just a being making statements about herself and her life.

As to the second bit, you've made a claim that I've "missed the point" and spoken of a sacrifice, but then offer no evidence of what that sacrifice is. Back up your claim. Also I guess someone just preformed that same sacrifice for the street bum and his dog, since that's where she got the idea.

>>20846664
>offer no evidence of what that sacrifice is
She sacrifices of herself to destroy the machine. This is effectively a blood sacrifice --and blood sacrifice is more than a personal gesture but also is a magical operation (for blood is held to be the most potent agent used in magical ritual.)
She then stands before the sun and says something to the effect of: "I know that it was not enough, and that I have failed, but save her for the sake of her own purity of heart, and look to the love that she shares with her bethrew.

>>20846697
If that's your take, fine. Blood being a potent agent is not ever brought up or alluded to, nor does it answer my question about the bum from the start of the story. I'm not sold on your take, nor was I sold on anything else about the book. I considered burning it, but the city library accepts English books, so I donated it. Hopefully it can mean as much to someone else as it does to you.

>>20846708
Sorry, deleted that post because of a typo. Reproducing below:
>>20846664
>offer no evidence of what that sacrifice is
She sacrifices of herself to destroy the machine. This is effectively a blood sacrifice --and blood sacrifice is more than a personal gesture but also is a magical operation (for blood is held to be the most potent agent used in magical ritual.)
She then stands before the sun and says something to the effect of: "I know that it was not enough, and that I have failed, but save her for the sake of her own purity of heart, and look to the love that she shares with her betrothed. This too, you can take, if you must!" There is no deity, no demon, no angel, who would fail to respond to such a plea.
Further, she sacrifices her own future. The girl recovers, and the robot goes on to live in the broom closet and junkyard for the rest of its existence. The robot's sacrifice went against its subjective interests. The clever thing about this is that it occults that idea—the idea is implicit not explicit.

>>20846708
Also, the matter of the bum is deeply connected to another matter raised here:
>>20846650
> using a child/child-like protagonist is almost a sure fire way to make a character retarded and just blame it on them being "innocent" and/or a child which I think is a poor cop-out.
In fact, the robot could only be a child. If it were in an adult-sized body, it would still be a child. (And the resulting incongruity would perhaps make the robot seem even more innocent and pathetic.) For in the first chapters of the book, it is learning about the world in a childlike way. It hasn't yet formed a picture of the world; it hasn't developed what we might consider a philosophy of being. It figures these things out with time, and frequently comes to wrong or mistaken conclusions. (e.g. that the machine is uniquely evil.)
As such, we can't know what happened with the bum. It's not even clear that the robot is, at that time, aware of the fact that humans sleep. (The robots do not seem to, which is a sort of clue.) The story of the bum could be a mere misinterpretation, viewed through eyes of guileless child-like innocence, that was never subsequently corrected or updated.
The man and his dog also taught the robot about loyalty -- and perhaps even about sacrifice itself. So one thing leads to another...

>>20844144
Read "The Killing Star"

>>20847009
Is that the same one where [Spoiler] aliens got really, really pissed off when they intercepted some Star Trek broadcasts, so they decided to genocide humanity[/Spoiler] ?
If so: Decent pulp SF yarn. Pretty fun.

>>20847026
>aliens got really, really pissed off when they intercepted some Star Trek broadcasts, so they decided to genocide humanity
No, it's where the true nature of the galaxy is that the most rational thing to do is kill anyone with the tech to make relativistic bombs, with relativistic bombs, and life is a cat and mouse game where the most logical way to survive is to preemptively kill anyone who could annihilate you.. The book is one of my favorites, it's sci-fi in a sort of psycological horror kind of way as the story follows the survivors of the first bombs trying to avoid the alien clean up crew there to finish any stragglers

>>20844002
I’ve been thinking about The Buried Giant, written by him, for months now. Those boatmen scare me. Funny because when I was reading it I just kept thinking about how clunky and expositional every single line of dialogue was.

>>20847033
It's a really good book, ngl. Worth reading.

>>20843986
>Space opera is soap opera in space.
Retard.

>>20844002
I still think about Klara and the Sun every once in a while. In my opinion, that book is what a great author at his peak, all the while having enough life experience can produce. Wonderfully simplistic yet concisely elegant - the prose is complex enough not to feel basic, but simple enough not to feel out of place.

Particularly the aspect of the Sun being regarded as a God by a being who doesn't know religion has stuck with me. While I am a christian, who is to say that the Sun can't be the God? There is no proof that praying to the planet and destroying the pollution-machine didn't directly help the girl.

tldr - I liked Klara and the Sun a lot

>>20847206
I unironically think that it's a work of real genius.
It manages to be, on one level, a work of science fiction in the oldest tradition. The sort of work that Asimov and John W. Campbell would deeply appreciate. It portrays, quite clearly, a plausible human future.
At the same time, it has every merit associated with literary fiction. It speaks to the human condition. It is suffused with pathos and longing for the universal.
Finally, it is actually an occult text where the core plot is the learning of the world, the discovery of a metaphysical framework, and the development of a holy ritual. In this it goes beyond magical realism -- which is typically spiritual but "fake" -- and into uncharted territory.
People are going to be talking about this book in 50 years. It's a masterpiece.
And it's not going to win any science fiction awards because the author isn't part of the transsexual Tor Books clique. I'll nominate him for another Nobel Prize, anyway.

>>20843971
>Klara and the Sun
It's about AI and that why they promote it. The corruption is unbelievable. Bill Gates wrote a review, that's when you know.

>>20848274
>literary fiction
This is just a jew term invented to shill those novels were a new yorker couple argues about being dissatisfied with their petite bourgeois life during dinner while a dog barks in the distance.

>>20848274
I'll save this reply, sums up my thoughts perfectly and adds structure to what essentially were my feelings.

>>20848328
No. It actually describes a living and active literary genre.

>>20843971
> Now guess which novel is the favorite, and which one isn't even up for consideration?
Favourite for what? Consideration of what?

> ...he was previously awarded the Nobel Prize for literature, the first one ever given to a science fiction author.
At the time he was awarded the Nobel Prize, he had written one work of science fiction, out of seven novels. He's hardly a science-fiction author.