/lit/ - Literature

>>20790054
Lol. Why does he make midwits seethe so hard?

>>20790062
>Returning to the form of the letter nūn, a further observation may be made which is of considerable interest from the point of view of the relations existing between the alphabets of the different traditional languages: in the Sanskrit alphabet, the corresponding letter na, reduced to its fundamental geometrical elements, is likewise composed of a half-circumference and a point; but here, the convexity being turned upwards, it is formed by the upper half of the circumference, and not by the lower half as in the Arabic nūn. We thus have the same figure placed the other way up, or more exactly two figures that are strictly complementary to each other. If they are joined together, the two central point’s naturally merge into one another, and this gives a circle with a point at its center, a figure which represents the complete cycle and which is also the sign of the Sun in astrology and of gold in alchemy.[4] Just as the lower half-circumference is a figure of the Ark, so the upper half-circumference represents the rainbow, which is analogous to the Ark in the strictest meaning of the word, all true analogy being “in-verse”. These two half-circumferences are also the two halves of the “World Egg”, the one “terrestrial”, in the “Lower Waters”, the other “celestial”, in the “Upper Waters”; and the circular figure, which was complete at the beginning of the cycle before the separation of the two halves, must be reconstituted at the end of the cycle. We may say, therefore, that the reunion of the two figures in question represents the accomplishment of the cycle, by the junction of its beginning and its end; and this appears particularly clearly if we refer to the “solar” symbolism, since the figure of the Sanskrit na corresponds to the sun rising and that of the Arabic nūn to the sun setting. On the other hand the complete circular figure is commonly the symbol of the number 10, the center being 1 and the circumference 9; but here, being obtained by the union of the two nūn, it has the value of 2 × 50 = 102, which indicates that it is in the “intermediary world” that the junction must be brought about; this junction is in fact impossible in the “inferior world”, which is the domain of division and “separativity”, and on the other hand it is always accomplished in the “upper” world, where it is realized principally in a permanent and unchangeable manner in the “eternal present”.
— Mysteries of the letter nun, Guenon

Imagine taking this Midwit seriously where is the half circumference and the point in the letter Na? He doesnt know what he is talking about.

>>20790111
Pic. Attatched

>>20790114
His brain was fried with all the opium

>>20790111
>sanskrit na corresponds to the sun rising
? Typical pilpul, I have never heard of this, there is no explicit correspondence in sanskrit literature
>Just as the lower half-circumference is a figure of the Ark, so the upper half-circumference represents the rainbow, which is analogous to the Ark in the strictest meaning of the word, all true analogy being “in-verse”. These two half-circumferences are also the two halves of the “World Egg”, the one “terrestrial”, in the “Lower Waters”, the other “celestial”, in the “Upper Waters”; and the circular figure, which was complete at the beginning of the cycle before the separation of the two halves, must be reconstituted at the end of the cycle. We may say, therefore, that the reunion of the two figures in question represents the accomplishment of the cycle, by the junction of its beginning and its end; and this appears particularly clearly if we refer to the “solar” symbolism, since the figure of the Sanskrit na corresponds to the sun rising and that of the Arabic nūn to the sun setting.
??? All total bullshit.
>On the other hand the complete circular figure is commonly the symbol of the number 10, the center being 1 and the circumference 9; but here, being obtained by the union of the two nūn, it has the value of 2 × 50 = 102, which indicates that it is in the “intermediary world” that the junction must be brought about; this junction is in fact impossible in the “inferior world”, which is the domain of division and “separativity”, and on the other hand it is always accomplished in the “upper” world, where it is realized principally in a permanent and unchangeable manner in the “eternal present”.
Again this is all rubbish eisegesis

Can any guenonfags explain what exactly he meant here? Maybe he copied some sort of islamic "science of letters" interpretation but the correspondence with the Sanskrit Na, etc. Is total bullshit, which he dreamt up in his cloud of opium smoke.

>>20790111
Sounds like real schizophrenic ramblings. I know saying that is a meme at this point but actually sounds like it this time. Finding tentative connects that don’t exist and such

>>20790111
>>20790114
>>20790145
Not sure what you get out of shilling against Guenon so hard. But it's clear this symbol is what he's referring to, because it has both a semi circle and a dot, both of which have widely known esoteric meanings (so as far as esoterism goes, their significance is not even esoteric). I'm not sure if you purposely removed the accent because I can't find the exact passage, but it's also possible he just forgot it, which is not really a big deal considering Latin script is not as important as the symbols themselves.

>>20790062
Sorry to break it to ya bud, but Guénon is literally a trap for midwits.

>>20790262
>Returning to the form of the letter nūn, a further observation may be made which is of considerable interest from the point of view of the relations existing between the alphabets of the different traditional languages: in the Sanskrit alphabet, the corresponding letter na, reduced to its fundamental geometrical elements, is likewise composed of a half-circumference and a point; but here, the convexity being turned upwards, it is formed by the upper half of the circumference, and not by the lower half as in the Arabic nūn. We thus have the same figure placed the other way up, or more exactly two figures that are strictly complementary to each other. If they are joined together, the two central point’s naturally merge into one another, and this gives a circle with a point at its center, a figure which represents the complete cycle and which is also the sign of the Sun in astrology and of gold in alchemy.
You're a total midwit, even in that Na where is the "convexity turned upwards" in the sanskrit
>it is formed by the upper half of the circumference, and not by the lower half as in the Arabic nūn
??????
>r. If they are joined together, the two central point’s naturally merge into one another, and this gives a circle with a point at its center, a figure which represents the complete cycle and which is also the sign of the Sun in astrology and of gold in alchemy.
They are not upper/lower half of eachother, since the convexity is pointing to the right even in the Na you posted, so you have evaded nothing and are obviously skim-reading this very short quote, because Guenon has not described that letter.
>] Just as the lower half-circumference is a figure of the Ark, so the upper half-circumference represents the rainbow, which is analogous to the Ark in the strictest meaning of the word, all true analogy being “in-verse”. These two half-circumferences are also the two halves of the “World Egg”, the one “terrestrial”, in the “Lower Waters”, the other “celestial”, in the “Upper Waters”; and the circular figure, which was complete at the beginning of the cycle before the separation of the two halves, must be reconstituted at the end of the cycle.
Guenon is wrong again the Sanskrit Na and the Arabic Nun do not respectively have in them an Upper and Lower Circumference, Guenon obviously has no clue what he is talking about,
Also why do you seem to think a reduction of the Sanskrit Letter Na to its "fundamental geometrical elements" seems to create a "half circumference" with the bindu, because it does not, the bindu is always the fundamental element, keep larping.

>>20790262
You are a literal retard.
there is no upside down Nun in the sanskrit letter Na. I am sorry to break it to you. disingenuous midwit, your slavish reply without even reading his description makes no sense at all,
>We may say, therefore, that the reunion of the two figures in question represents the accomplishment of the cycle, by the junction of its beginning and its end; and this appears particularly clearly if we refer to the “solar” symbolism, since the figure of the Sanskrit na corresponds to the sun rising and that of the Arabic nūn to the sun setting. On the other hand the complete circular figure is commonly the symbol of the number 10, the center being 1 and the circumference 9; but here, being obtained by the union of the two nūn, it has the value of 2 × 50 = 102, which indicates that it is in the “intermediary world” that the junction must be brought about; this junction is in fact impossible in the “inferior world”, which is the domain of division and “separativity”, and on the other hand it is always accomplished in the “upper” world, where it is realized principally in a permanent and unchangeable manner in the “eternal present”.
explain what guenon is talking about here you deaf and dumb midwit, you should be able to right?

>>20790244
>that is a meme at this point but actually sounds
Take it seriously and you will realise these slavish npc robot guenonians like
>>20790262
dont even read, and try to arbitrarily reconcile non-existent parallels, because guenon has not accurately described the sanskrit letter Na and his subsequent "Sun rising and Sun setting" makes no sense at all, when you realise there is no Up pointing half-circumference in the letter Na, but something pointing to the right.
even then then the whole Lower Waters shit etc. is total eisegesis, parraleling the biblical genesis story in some ambigous way, this has to do with guenons and kabbalistic understanding of the degrees of manifestation respectively corresponding to the upper and lower waters, even then its all just speculative rubbish, you can find similar "science of letters" amongst early christians, pulling this shit out of their asses and analyzing and imposing on the greek letters some presupposed metaphysical meaning. with the same "Upper water, Lower water" stuff
read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/About_the_Mystery_of_the_Letters

>>20790281
>They are not upper/lower half of eachother,
It just has to be rotated 90 degrees, unless there is an actual separate rendering of the un-accented na which Guenon was using, which results in a more proper semicircular shape. In calligraphy it's possible for complex symbols to change shape like that, just as it does in Japanese. Sanskrit is an equally artistic language so I don't see why that would be out of the question. I personally don't know enough about Sanskrit calligraphy to know if that is possible, but it seems reasonable.
>Guenon is wrong again the Sanskrit Na and the Arabic Nun do not respectively have in them an Upper and Lower Circumference,
Nun obviously does, The accented na does if you simply rotate it 90 degrees, unless the above correction applies.
>there is no upside down Nun in the sanskrit letter Na
There clearly is just by looking at them.
>why do you seem to think a reduction of the Sanskrit Letter Na to its "fundamental geometrical elements" seems to create a "half circumference"
The bindu is still a part of the fundamental geometrical shape. A dot or point by itself is not really a geometrical shape.

>>20790288
>explain what guenon is talking about here
This is a mixture of alchemical symbolism and the metaphysics he has written so many books about, what do you not understand? He is almost talking in the most basic terms possible here. The symbols nun and na are clearly being used symbolically and not in terms of linguistic meanings, if that's what you didn't understand. The value of nun = 50 (then multiplied by 2) is gematria, something Guenon writes about a lot. The Hebrew character נ is pronounced the same way and has the same value = 50.

In any case, I still don't understand why you are both so hostile. I don't expect you to like Guenon, it just doesn't make sense as to why you are so enraged about this comment of otherwise minor import. It's possible that he a mistake here, but generally he doesn't which is why I doubt it.

>>20790145
>there is no explicit correspondence in sanskrit literature
He doesn't claim that 'na' corresponds to the sun in Sanskrit literature.
Just that 'na' corresponds to 'nun' and if joined together they make the upper and lower halves of a circular planetary symbol for the sun.
This is fairly clear if you overlay the 'nun' and 'na' in your image.
So the upper half (na) would be the sun rising and the lower half (nun) would be the sun descending within that context.
This is important to him as a Muslim as it represents Islam completing a cycle which began with Vedic culture.

>>20790318
>There clearly is just by looking at them.
Wrong.
>It just has to be rotated 90 degrees
???? So you admit it,
>Unless there is an actual separate rendering of the un-accented na which Guenon was using
So you are just pulling it out of nowhere and dont even have a definite understanding of what guenon is talking about, still you defend it, Got it.
>Nun obviously does, The accented na does if you simply rotate it 90 degrees, unless the above correction applies.
Nun does not, the upper circumference of the nun is invisible, Guenon is literally talking about the upper half of nun as if it were an invisible circle, and that convexity he is saying is present in the letter "Na" its not that complex midwit.
>The bindu is still a part of the fundamental geometrical shape. A dot or point by itself is not really a geometrical shape.
still irrelevant.
>This is a mixture of alchemical symbolism and the metaphysics he has written so many books about, what do you not understand? He is almost talking in the most basic terms possible here. The symbols nun and na are clearly being used symbolically and not in terms of linguistic meanings, if that's what you didn't understand. The value of nun = 50 (then multiplied by 2) is gematria, something Guenon writes about a lot. The Hebrew character נ is pronounced the same way and has the same value = 50.

>This is a mixture of alchemical symbolism and the metaphysics he has written so many books about, what do you not understand?
Midwit copout.
>He is almost talking in the most basic terms possible here.
Midwit copout.
>The symbols nun and na are clearly being used symbolically and not in terms of linguistic meanings, if that's what you didn't understand.
There is no clear symboloical parralel, they NA doesnt have the convexity respectively ascribed to it, and is not the upper circumference to the Nuns lower circumference, and therefore he is pulling the "setting sun and rising sun" shit out of thin air.
>The value of nun = 50 (then multiplied by 2) is gematria, something Guenon writes about a lot. The Hebrew character נ is pronounced the same way and has the same value = 50.
Obviously I know what gematria is you brainlet midwit hylic, where is the significance of the gematria application here? this is just pilpul.
let Me reiterate because you are Slow
>>We may say, therefore, that the reunion of the two figures in question represents the accomplishment of the cycle,
This is false, since there is no "reunion" between Nun and Na. Full stop.
>And this appears particularly clearly if we refer to the “solar” symbolism,
This is False for the aforementioned reasons.
>And this appears particularly clearly if we refer to the “solar” symbolism,
False, and pulled out of thin air.

>>20790054
imo nobody actually read his works
people just enjoy shitposting and posting LE based traditionalist like Evola and Guenon
Also all Frithjof Schuon are just Guenon threads that are chocolate flavoured instead of vanilla
Thing is that Guenon wasn't an original thinker, he read Being and Time and copied its style and subjects

>>20790339
>he read Being and Time and copied its style and subjects
He published at least six books before Heidegger published Being and Time. Crisis of the Modern World came out the same year. I don't think that adds up.

>>20790337
>>On the other hand the complete circular figure is commonly the symbol of the number 10, the center being 1 and the circumference 9; but here, being obtained by the union of the two nūn, it has the value of 2 × 50 = 102, which indicates that it is in the “intermediary world” that the junction must be brought about; this junction is in fact impossible in the “inferior world”, which is the domain of division and “separativity”, and on the other hand it is always accomplished in the “upper” world, where it is realized principally in a permanent and unchangeable manner in the “eternal present”.
Yeah this is just talking about the letter Nun itself, not really significant and does not link back to his falsity explicated on the letter Na.

>
In any case, I still don't understand why you are both so hostile. I don't expect you to like Guenon, it just doesn't make sense as to why you are so enraged about this comment of otherwise minor import. It's possible that he a mistake here, but generally he doesn't which is why I doubt it.
I am not enraged, I am reading false rubbish, so I am calling it out for what it is.

>He doesn't claim that 'na' corresponds to the sun in Sanskrit literature.
Just that 'na' corresponds to 'nun' and if joined together they make the upper and lower halves of a circular planetary symbol for the sun.
This is fairly clear if you overlay the 'nun' and 'na' in your image.
So the upper half (na) would be the sun rising and the lower half (nun) would be the sun descending within that context.
This is important to him as a Muslim as it represents Islam completing a cycle which began with Vedic culture.
the Na does not correspond to the Nun, in the way he described, and they therefore do not join, into the Sun and the reunion of the Cycle, and whatever rubbish he specified,
corresponding further to the Manifested and Unmanifested, Invisible/Visible halves of a fully circular Nun.

Guenon is talking shit, and pulled this out of his cloud of opium smoke.

>>20790345
>the Na does not correspond to the Nun, in the way he described
In which way? Phonetically? Numerically? As halves of a visual circle?

>>20790330
Read here
>>20790345
he is building all of this speculation on symbology on nonsense. keep coping,
one of the guenonfag robots said maybe he is talking about the unaccented Na maybe the accented, and maybe it depends on some sort of special orthography... doesnt even know what the fuck he is talking about.

>>20790351
As Halves of a visual Circle. Which is his whole point. Neither by Nirukta does Na and Nun correspond, Guenon is a liar.

>>20790054
Because you can't really talk about him anywhere else.

the source that has inflamed our guenon-hating autist

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Mysteries_of_the_Letter_Nûn-by_René_Guénon.aspx

>>20790337
All you're doing here is calling me a midwit, how do you think this strengthens your case? It is simply vulgar. And you haven't responded to any of my points, so what do you want me to say? Anyway, I have an actual excerpt here from the book you took it from so we know the graphical representation of the symbol he used. Might be important to note that he explicitly says "the convexity is turned upwards", which could imply the act of mentally rotating the symbol.
> and dont even have a definite understanding of what guenon is talking about
Do you? Are you fluent in Sanskrit?
>, the upper circumference of the nun is invisible
The nun isn't meant to have an upper circumference. That's the point, it's only a semicircle by itself. How are you the one calling me slow when you failed to grasp this?
>where is the significance of the gematria application here?
The significance is obviously that nun in Hebrew both equate to fifty, and given that there are two halves of nun, it makes up 100. I'm not sure why you modified your original post to make this 102, unless you are simply trying to slander him, because in the text I have in front of me it is clearly 100. It's clear you have a vedetta when you are purposefully modifying the quotations to slander someone.

>>20790125

>His brain was fried with all the opium

>>20790378
Even with that botched orthography of the Na, where is the Point in that, and also that letter is not Na
BUT
VA
even worse for you, you fucking dim hylic.

>>20790381
kek saved

>>20790378
>Do you? Are you fluent in Sanskrit?
Yes, I have studied sanskrit extensively
>The nun isn't meant to have an upper circumference. That's the point, it's only a semicircle by itself. How are you the one calling me slow when you failed to grasp this?
False you dont know what the fuck you are talking about, read Kitab Al-Nun You shudra dog.
>The significance is obviously that nun in Hebrew both equate to fifty, and given that there are two halves of nun, it makes up 100. I'm not sure why you modified your original post to make this 102, unless you are simply trying to slander him, because in the text I have in front of me it is clearly 100. It's clear you have a vedetta when you are purposefully modifying the quotations to slander someone.
laughable and pathetic.

>>20790396
See pic. related.
>>20790378
guenon was a skimreading opium smoking retard, and his lackies here on this board are equally stupid.
see pic.

>>20790378
read
>http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Mysteries_of_the_Letter_Nûn-by_René_Guénon.aspx

>>20790378
>The significance is obviously that nun in Hebrew both equate to fifty, and given that there are two halves of nun
That is irrelevant to the consideration of Na and Nun.
that is my point, he included that almost like changing the topic

>>20790359
Being a simple man rather than a linguist, I look at them and see two semi-circles with pointy bits. Of course you have to be willing to chop the top bit off the 'na' to retcon it.
Doesn't Nirukta predate the Arabic alphabet (or even Aramaic) by several centuries though? If so, I wouldn't expect to find anything there about some later 'completion'.

>>20790054
>Can someone explain what it is exactly which is so special about this author? What is so great about his work on metaphysics and symbolism,
René Guénon defies classification. . . . Were he anything less than a consummate master of lucid argument and forceful expression, his work would certainly be unknown to all but a small, private circle of admirers.”
—Gai Eaton, author of The Richest Vein

“Guénon established the language of sacred metaphysics with a rigor, a breadth, and an intrinsic certainty such that he compels recognition as a standard of comparison for the twentieth century.”
—Jean Borella, author of Guénonian Esoterism and Christian Mystery

“To a materialistic society enthralled with the phenomenal universe exclusively, Guénon, taking the Vedanta as point of departure, revealed a metaphysical and cosmological teaching both macrocosmic and microcosmic about the hierarchized degrees of being or states of existence, starting with the Absolute . . . and terminating with our sphere of gross manifestation.”
—Whitall N. Perry, editor of A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

“René Guénon was the chief influence in the formation of my own intellectual outlook (quite apart from the question of Orthodox Christianity). . . . It was René Guénon who taught me to seek and love the truth above all else, and to be unsatisfied with anything else.”
—Fr. Seraphim Rose, author of The Soul After Death

“His mixture of arcane learning, metaphysics, and scathing cultural commentary is a continent in itself, untouched by the polluted tides of modernity. . . . Guénon’s work will not save the world—it is too late for that—but it leaves no reader unchanged.”
—Jocelyn Godwin, author of Mystery Religions in the Ancient World

“René Guénon is one of the few writers of our time whose work is really of importance. . . . He stands for the primacy of pure metaphysics over all other forms of knowledge, and presents himself as the exponent of a major tradition of thought, predominantly Eastern, but shared in the Middle Ages by the . . . West.”
—Walter Shewring, translator of Homer’s Odyssey

>>20790420
Rene Guenon is the most correct, smartest and most important person of the twentieth century. There was no smarter, deeper, clearer, absolute Guenon and probably could not be. It is no coincidence that the French traditionalist René Allé in one collection dedicated to R. Guenon compared Guenon with Marx. It would seem that there are completely different, opposite figures. Guenon is a conservative hyper-traditionalist. Marx is a revolutionary innovator, a radical overthrower of traditions. But Rene Halle rightly guessed the revolutionary message of each of Guenon's statements, the extreme, cruel noncomformity of his position, which turns everything and everything upside down, the radical nature of his thought.

The fact is that René Guenon is the only author, the only thinker of the twentieth century, and maybe many, many centuries before that, who not only identified and confronted with each other secondary language paradigms, but also put into question the very essence of language. The language of Marxism was methodologically very interesting, subtly reducing the historical existence of mankind to a clear and convincing formula for confronting labor and capital. Being a great paradigmatic success, Marxism was so popular and won the minds of the best intellectuals of the twentieth century. But R. Guenon is an even more fundamental generalization, an even more radical removal of masks, an even broader worldview contestation, putting everything into question.

- Aleksandr Dugin

Guénon undermined and then; with uncompromising intellectual rigour, demolished all the assumptions taken for granted by modern man, that is to say Western or westernised man. Many others had been critical of the direction taken by European civilization since the so-called 'Renaissance', but none had dared to be as radical as he was or to re-assert with such force the principles and values which Western culture had consigned to the rubbish tip of history. His theme was the 'primordial tradition' or Sofia perennis, expressed-so he maintained-both in ancient mythologies and in the metaphysical doctrine at the root of the great religions. The language of this Tradition was the language of symbolism, and he had no equal in his interpretation of this symbolism. Moreover he turned the idea of human progress upside down, replacing it with the belief almost universal before the modern age, that humanity declines in spiritual excellence with the passage of time and that we are now in the Dark Age which precedes the End, an age in which all the possibilities rejected by earlier cultures have been spewed out into the world, quantity replaces quality and decadence approaches its final limit. No one who read him and understood him could ever be quite the same again.

- Gai Eaton

>>20790414
Guenon has a bastardises understanding of Ibn arabis exposition on Nun, and is falsely appropriating it, and trying to falsely assimilate the hypothetical equivalent, in some pursuit of subjective meaning which is ultimately, false, he is saying nothing, its redundant and meaningless, and it is demonstrably so, this should call into question his other writings.
Guenon has no grasp of "Traditional Sciences" he never explained them sufficiently anywhere in his book, he was a midwit fraud who was larping as a brahmin.

>>20790422
“In a world increasingly rife with heresy and pseudo-religion, Guénon had to remind twentieth century man of the need for orthodoxy, which presupposes firstly a Divine Revelation and secondly a Tradition that has handed down with fidelity what Heaven has revealed. He thus restores to orthodoxy its true meaning, rectitude of opinion which compels the intelligent man not only to reject heresy but also to recognize the validity of faiths other than his own if they also are based on the same two principles, Revelation and Tradition.”
—Martin Lings, author of Ancient Beliefs and Modern Superstitions

“If during the last century or so there has been even some slight revival of awareness in the Western world of what is meant by metaphysics and metaphysical tradition, the credit for it must go above all to Guénon. At a time when the confusion into which modern Western thought had fallen was such that it threatened to obliterate the few remaining traces of genuine spiritual knowledge from the minds and hearts of his contemporaries, Guénon, virtually single-handed, took it upon himself to reaffirm the values and principles which, he recognized, constitute the only sound basis for the living of a human life with dignity and purpose or for the formation of a civilization worthy of the name.”
—Philip Sherrard, author of Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition

“Apart from his amazing flair for expounding pure metaphysical doctrine and his critical acuteness when dealing with the errors of the modern world, Guénon displayed a remarkable insight into things of a cosmological order. . . . He all along stressed the need, side by side with a theoretical grasp of any given doctrine, for its concrete—one can also say its ontological—realization failing which one cannot properly speak of knowledge.”
—Marco Pallis, author of A Buddhist Spectrum

“Guénon’s mission was two-fold: to reveal the metaphysical roots of the ‘crisis of the modern world’ and to explain the ideas behind the authentic and esoteric teachings that still [remain] alive.”
—Harry Oldmeadow, author of Traditionalism: Religion in the Light of the Perennial Philosophy

"René Guénon should certainly be considered a Master of our times. His contributions to the "world of Tradition", of symbols and of metaphysical teachings, are truly invaluable."
—Julius Evola, author of Eros and the Mysteries of Love: The Metaphysics of Sex.

>>20790424
*bastardised.
and I found it funny

>>20790427
>funny how his midwit NPC followers and devotees defend his writings which they dont even understand, like this one. they just take it at face-value.

>>20790420
>>20790422
>>20790425
Most of these guys are first and foremost followers of Schuon.

>>20790438
So? that doesn't lessen the impact of their statements about Guenon

>>20790054
stupid, lost souls are easily enthralled

I think a good moustache just makes people happy.

>>20790387
>where is the Point in that
At the base of the semicircle where it rejoins the vertical line (because the two circumference lines will intersect at a point given the shape).
>and also that letter is not Na
We already established that there is probably a slight print error, or mix up of the equivalent Latin script. That symbol was added by the translator, hence the square brackets, what is actually important is the geometry of the symbol and the vocalization in how it is similar to the Arabic. We have this symbol for example which almost perfectly represents what he meant ञ, which is actually given with the consonant n and vowel a.
>>20790405
The translation I possess is by a reputed translator. It is probably less reason to trust that source that you've linked. If any anon has the original French text we can directly see which is right, but it's just basic mathematics so I fail to see how this needs further investigation, the conclusion being your translation is erroneous. The point Guenon was making in the actual text is that 2 x 50 = 100 = 10^2, 10 being the total circle of center (1) + circumference (9), making it numerically the "intermediary", consisting of both manifestation (9) and principle (1). The text you've posted says nothing about this at all.
>>20790396
>Yes, I have studied sanskrit extensively
Are you well versed enough to know the possible variations due to calligraphy?
>False you dont know what the fuck you are talking about,
I am stating that there is no invisible upper half in the plain use of Arabic, which is plainly correct by looking at the character. The symbolizing of nun as a full circle is an esoteric usage.
>>20790410
>That is irrelevant to the consideration of Na and Nun.
It stems from the consideration of them, but it would be irrelevant if taking that fact as a starting point.

>>20790480
>where it rejoins the vertical line
Horizontal line mind you if we use the alternative na, which would make a lot more sense.

>>20790480
>At the base of the semicircle where it rejoins the vertical line (because the two circumference lines will intersect at a point given the shape).
Actually the better point would be considering the elongation of the bottom portion of the semicircle, which linearly approximates a bindu. That is something which would easily be rewritten calligraphically.

Let us consider the term 'nun' as used in Christianity to describe a female renunciate: the 'pure woman' being the lunar principle of the lower waters subordinated to the masculine and solar church hierarchy (the red robes of the cardinal representing the completion of the alchemical 'red work'). Taken together, then, we find a symbolic representation of the intermediate role of Christianity between Judaism and the final revelation of Islam - it is the passive (moon) element, which must be separated from the body (the materialism of the Roman empire) before reintegration (the final revelation and the active, solar jihad against the involutionary forces situated at the 'end of time').

And yet, is the n- prefix not negatory, as in the Proto-Indo-European ne- and its derivatives (no, non, nyet etc). Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the correspondence nun = 'none' (with 'none' deriving from the same Indo-European root). The Arabic numerals introduce of the zero figure into mathematics and thus a false conception of emptiness into the created world of matter in place of the prior conception of the circle as transcendental union. Thus we can see that Islam is another step in the counter-initiatic devolution of the primordial wisdom.

>>20790480
>At the base of the semicircle where it rejoins the vertical line (because the two circumference lines will intersect at a point given the shape).
So now its ञ and neither न, ङ nor ण sure.
There is no bindu in ञ.
>We already established that there is probably a slight print error, or mix up of the equivalent Latin script. That symbol was added by the translator, hence the square brackets, what is actually important is the geometry of the symbol and the vocalization in how it is similar to the Arabic. We have this symbol for example which almost perfectly represents what he meant ञ, which is actually given with the consonant n and vowel a.
No we have not established a single thing, other than this sort of cross-alphabet letter mysticism being highly speculative rubbish.
>vocalisation
so what is nun? then if it is ञ then it must be palatal and nasal?
>which is actually given with the consonant n and vowel a.
based on what? Do you not understand sanskrit phonology, nowhere did guenon indicate wether the N was gluttaral, palatal, cerebral, dental or labial
if you are talking about a straight "Na" as in english then that would be either dental or cerebral, neither of which corresponds to ञ which in itself already lacks the geometrical properties specified by guenon.
>The translation I possess is by a reputed translator. It is probably less reason to trust that source that you've linked. If any anon has the original French text we can directly see which is right, but it's just basic mathematics so I fail to see how this needs further investigation, the conclusion being your translation is erroneous. The point Guenon was making in the actual text is that 2 x 50 = 100 = 10^2, 10 being the total circle of center (1) + circumference (9), making it numerically the "intermediary", consisting of both manifestation (9) and principle (1). The text you've posted says nothing about this at all.
>Are you well versed enough to know the possible variations due to calligraphy?
yes.
>I am stating that there is no invisible upper half in the plain use of Arabic, which is plainly correct by looking at the character. The symbolizing of nun as a full circle is an esoteric usage.
that usage was exactly what guenon meant by a reunion of nun and na, with the na playing the role of the upper half of the nun, "sun rising" which is again total bullshit. Again you dont know what you are talking about.
>It stems from the consideration of them, but it would be irrelevant if taking that fact as a starting point.
again there is no symbological correspondence, keep larping though, you said nothing pretty much throughout this entire post.
>The point Guenon was making in the actual text is that 2 x 50 = 100 = 10^2, 10 being the total circle of center (1) + circumference (9), making it numerically the "intermediary", consisting of both manifestation (9) and principle (1). The text you've posted says nothing about this at all.
lol.

>>20790506
No there is no better point, guenon is wrong and what he has written is false half-baked rubbish
> the better point would be considering the elongation of the bottom portion of the semicircle, which linearly approximates a bindu.
there is no such thing as a linearly approximating a bindu, you dont know what the fuck you are talking about clearly.
>That is something which would easily be rewritten calligraphically.
hahaha

guenonfag robots never fail to dissapoint,
>>At the base of the semicircle where it rejoins the vertical line (because the two circumference lines will intersect at a point given the shape).

There is no bindu in pic. related, the letter fails the property of convexity specified by guenon, keep pretending you guys know what you are talking about.

>>20790528
>So now its ञ and neither न, ङ nor ण sure.
I never said it was any of them, I'm simply giving possibilities, all of which make sense.
>There is no bindu in ञ.
...I never said there was
>No we have not established a single thing, other than this sort of cross-alphabet letter mysticism being highly speculative rubbish.
Mathematics is highly speculative too, but that does not make it rubbish. It just means you are not interested, which is no problem at all for me. I still fail to understand why it angers you so much.
>so what is nun? then if it is ञ then it must be palatal and nasal?
They are not pronounced the same way in either case, they simply consist of very similar consonants and vowels. That was never the point.
>based on what? Do you not understand sanskrit phonology, nowhere did guenon indicate wether the N was gluttaral, palatal, cerebral, dental or labial
See above.
>yes.
So prove it? I'm not going to take a stranger's word for something like that, especially given your lowbrow attitude in this thread.
>that usage was exactly what guenon meant by a reunion of nun and na
Of course, but he never asserted that the nun has an actual drawn upper half, just that a semicircle, given that it is semi-, can be given another half, which is provided to it by the other symbol. Really very basic geometry.
>lol.
Did you finally figure it out now that you have the correct text given to you? As I said originally, it is nothing extremely complex. But it doesn't make sense if you're given an equation obviously absurd like 2 x 50 = 102, which is what you were looking at originally.

>>20790542
>there is no such thing as a linearly approximating a bindu
Yes there is, it's done in languages such as Japanese where part of a line segment is omitted for stylistic purposes. It's even done in reverse in English cursive where a line segment is added to what is meant to be a point. Everything else you've said has already been dismissed.

>>20790552
>I still fail to understand why it angers you so much.
He is one of those guys who loses his temper and seethes at the sight of Shankara/Advaita being mentioned; and he apparently hates Guenon because of his association with or preference for Advaita. This is all just a way for him to take out his autism rage by delving into the minutiae of Guenon's writings and trying to find issue with whatever he can

>>20790552
No stop larping you fucking retard. we are talking about Devenagari aswell, what about the Brahmi script, there is an element of presupposed providence, which is obfuscating the historical adventitiousness of language scripts, letter mysticism is apriori mysticism.
>I never said it was any of them, I'm simply giving possibilities, all of which make sense.
"muh possibilities" you dont know what the fuck you are talking about, and neither does guenon.
>Mathematics is highly speculative too, but that does not make it rubbish. It just means you are not interested, which is no problem at all for me. I still fail to understand why it angers you so much.
Absolutely not, maybe the sorts of profane mathematics you are familiar with, but that is only a reflection of your own limited scope and incomprehension.
>They are not pronounced the same way in either case, they simply consist of very similar consonants and vowels. That was never the point.
similar is not enough, sanskrit phonology is very precise.
>So prove it? I'm not going to take a stranger's word for something like that, especially given your lowbrow attitude in this thread.
I have already sufficiently refuted the bullshit above, and why the symbolism doesn't work out is more or less reminiscent of a smoke ring emitted from the opium addicts mouth, which has some sort of transient solidity but quickly dissolves into nothingness, similarly guenons speculations and opinions are like that smoke ring there is not definite solidity to it at all in this case.
>Of course, but he never asserted that the nun has an actual drawn upper half, just that a semicircle, given that it is semi-, can be given another half, which is provided to it by the other symbol. Really very basic geometry.
You don't know what the fuck you are talking about
>Did you finally figure it out now that you have the correct text given to you? As I said originally, it is nothing extremely complex. But it doesn't make sense if you're given an equation obviously absurd like 2 x 50 = 102, which is what you were looking at originally.
I am laughing at your patheticness, I already understood what you wrote on first posting the excerpt it seems the point of contention which I am bringing to the surface totally evades you, so I cannot help but just write "lol," as you slavishly robotically emphasize this point which you have believed is what I am asking you to address.
> But it doesn't make sense if you're given an equation obviously absurd like 2 x 50 = 102
just lol, you think that is what I am getting at?

>>20790568
The thing I don't get is that I'm willing to concede that Guenon was wrong on this particular point because no one is immune to mistakes, I just don't get how the anon things a single mistake like this means everything is wrong, so I endeavor to at least present the logic Guenon was working with, even if one of the presumptions might have happened to be incorrect given the circumstances.

>>20790557
>Yes there is, it's done in languages such as Japanese where part of a line segment is omitted for stylistic purposes. It's even done in reverse in English cursive where a line segment is added to what is meant to be a point. Everything else you've said has already been dismissed.
it seems you dont even understand what a bindu is.

>>20790568
absolutely not, I agree completely with advaita and only view his book Man and becoming as being of any value, the rest is inferior.

>>20790573
>I have already sufficiently refuted the bullshit above
You haven't refuted anything, all you've done is call me a midwit and pretend you've said something substantial.
> the point of contention which I am bringing to the surface totally evades you
What is your point of contention? The only point you've raised so far are personal insults, and then called a clearly reasoned train of thought "mysticism" just because you do not personally find it interesting. I actually do not know what your point is.

>>20790583
>it seems you dont even understand what a bindu is.
It is a point or dot used in the script. In Japanese and other languages they obviously have different names.

>>20790581
>I just don't get how the anon things a single mistake like this means everything is wrong,
It doesn't, he just likes to blows everything out of proportion because Guenon's face appearing in the catalog turns him hysterical

>>20790592
>>20790145
>>20790281
>>20790288
>>20790337
>>20790345
>>20790357
>>20790396
>>20790410
The whole premise of the symbolical parralel and correspondence, is false, the letter guenon is describing as "Na" doesn't exist, neither is there any special devanagari orthographic form which meets the requirements.

You have not proved anything, you are still uncertain as to what letter "na" guenon is talking about, the printed version in you shitty book is "va" and not even "na" all forms of na
both glutteral, palatal, cerebral, and dental, do not fit the description of guenon, from this it would be fair to conclude that guenon did not even know sanskrit, or became a bit rusty with all that opium.

>>20790596
a dot is something which stands alone, and in this case as described by guenon it is supposed to hover above the "convexity turned upwards" stop talking shit, the mental gymnastics of linearizing a bindu make no sense here,

>>20790612
>the mental gymnastics of linearizing a bindu make no sense here,
Calligraphy is not mental gymnastics, it happens all the time, even in English.

>>20790591
>absolutely not, I agree completely with advaita and only view his book Man and becoming as being of any value, the rest is inferior.
Interesting; well in that case I could be mistaken in that post and in this one >>20790601. There is another poster here who hates Guenon AND Advaita and who pops up often in these threads; he likes to focus on Ibn Arabi and constantly complains about opium as well so when you mentioned Ibn Arabi and opium that made me assume you were him. I also agree completely with Advaita myself; do you not find his continued explication of that metaphysics in Symbolism of the Cross and Multiples States of the Being interesting? The content in those two books often very closely matches Advaita

>>20790614
as soon as you "linearize a bindu" whatever that may mean, it is no longer a bindu. Full stop.

>>20790607
>You have not proved anything
Yes, and neither have you. I never actually claimed to have done so.

>>20790616
>Multiples States of the Being interesting
Yes for this book.
>Symbolism of the Cross
A hard No for this book.

>>20790617
Of course, I never said otherwise. You could perhaps say it is "virtually" or "conventionally", but really it is not. That doesn't change the possibility of doing so for stylistic purposes, however, with the character retaining the same usage.

>>20790619
No I have pretty clearly proven that Guenon either misread this letter "Na" maybe because of the hazy vision of being in a room densely packed with the opium smoke clouds, I know sanskrit and know there is no such "na" letter, none of the "possibilities" or "examples" you have brought here work, until you find this "orthographic" exception, which doesn't exist, you will have to acknowledge that guenons explanation is built on some hypothetical letter, and therefore these symbolical meanings he derives from comparison between these two letters is null and void.

>>20790633
I mean what sort of indicator is it, when the printer of guenons book printed "va" that is totally botched, and sketchy. How can you take it so seriously?

>this thread by now

>>20790581
>>20790616
The descent of the monad into duality implies that for the Guenonfag, there must be an Anti-Guenonfag. We thus have the same Anon inverted or, more exactly, two Anons that are strictly complementary to each other, all true analogy being “in-verse”. We may say, therefore, that the reunion of the two Anons in question represents the accomplishment of the cycle.

>>20790743
Now attach a version of the letter N in arabic, and a version of the letter N in sanskrit, and try to read into it your assumptions about "primordial revelation" and "seal of the prophets" and the two traditions completing eachother, based on Ibn Arabis etc. In Kitab al-Nun which is only an apriori application of metaphysics, and then pretend to make some conclusion. Guenonfags are delusional, in this excerpt Guenon undeniably misapplies ʿIlm al-Ḥurūf, and further proves himself a pseud, the :unity of religions" is something strictly metsphysical so these extremely abstract parralels of symbolism he reads into and tries to harmonise, are missing the point.

I’m reading Crisis of the modern world and enjoying it so far, even though I was expecting shit like extended family, masculinity and etc. You really need to change your worldview before reading him from progressive to more traditionalist. I recommend reading Unabomber manifesto, Nietzsche’s Greek state and Edmund Burke’s Reflections first. They talk about problems of modern world, defend monarchy and slavery. If you are average self centered, consumerist and oversocialized normalfag you won’t get it most likely

Holy shit. Guenonfags are doing some incredible mental gymnastics cope damage control.

Guenon was a midwit fraud and was refuted since day 1.

>>20790573
I imagine a sweaty pajeet frothing at the mouth typing this out

>>20790743
I concur with this analysis
As above, so below

>>20792067
Youre embarrassing yourself kid

>>20792214
I am restoring the truth, Guenon is reading his own fantasies into this analysis of his, of Hinduism being a "rising sun" and Islam being that sun except "setting," this conclusion based on all those misconstrued false symbolic parallels, is wrong.

Guenon is just making shit up to confirm what he already, thinks to be the truth, his analysis is devoid of any objectivity, and this shows in the ambiguity and vagueness of his half-baked method to arrive at the aforementioned conclusion, I have already told what he did, Guenon misappropriated Ibn Arabis etc. and the Islamic science of letters and tried to make it all conform to his historically contingent "traditions" thesis,

read to see the reality, you will see guenon in his simplicity inserted Na into "Nun-waw-Nun" arbitrarily and fundamentally misunderstands the point in these forms of sciences, since he due to his limitation strips the science of the letter nun of the proper meaning (a philosophical device to express the "manifested," "unmanifested" polarity which he mentions of course) of which it is related, and created a mongrel nun-na to fit his historical opinion which doesn't actually have any meaning. This "nun-na" observation is innovative and nonsensical, unsubstantiated speculation which does not even correspond to "na" obviously guenon had a poor mastery of sanskrit...
http://www.untiredwithloving.org/kitab_nun.html

>>20790054
ressentiment—they are just the rightist heirs of christer morality instead of the more commonly recognized leftist ones. no theology and no theory will deliver you from the life you loathe

It's been admitted by Guenon's followers that his personal library in Cairo did not contain any Arabic books except for the Quran, and while Guenon could converse in modernist Egyptian Arabic, he showed no interest in profounding his understanding and reading of Arabic and remained focused on other things.

Ivan Agueli who initiated Guenon into Sufism was probably a bad source of knowledge for Guenon, and he took up the errors of Agueli wholesale. Seems also like the Sufi contacts in Egypt who praised him were only doing so because they liked a white European paying lip-service to their religion and culture. They called Guenon orthodox and then went on to espouse views that went against the full non-dualism of Guenon and Shankara.

>>20792408
You’re saying that Guenon isn’t actually muslim?

>>20790111
>being obtained by the union of the two nūn, it has the value of 2 × 50 = 102, which indicates that it is in the “intermediary world” that the junction must be brought about; this junction is in fact impossible in the “inferior world”, which is the domain of division and “separativity”, and on the other hand it is always accomplished in the “upper” world, where it is realized principally in a permanent and unchangeable manner in the “eternal present”.
Holy fuck Guenon was a bad metaphysician.

>>20792369
my point is (better phrased) the
"alchemical sun" connected to "islam and hinduism completing the cycle based on falsely appropriated alphabetical mysticism"
is a misunderstanding of all the "visible and invisible" nun implies which is the manifested/unmanifested, etc. the interpolation of the letter na in there is a schizo distortion and is unrelated to then to the metaphysical meaning given to things like the "upper waters" and "lower waters" or the corporeal and incorpreal Nun, guenon made it up to serve his own preconception of the "islamic and hindu cycle" this historically contingent thesis of his, has nothing to do with what is meant in the interpretation of the letter Nun by Ibn Arabi, etc. he made it up, and it is an original opinion.

>>20790054
>Why is there a Guénon cult here on /lit/?
Long story short: around 2018 an animal disguised as a person known by the name of Guenonfag started spamming the board with threads about Guenon and Shankara in which he'd reply to himself. He did this daily for years and eventually attracted a following of offsite halfwits (mostly from twitter if I had to take a guess) which came to inhabit the board in the same manner in which a cancer might inhabit a rectum.

>>20792460
>mostly from twitter if I had to take a guess
Nah, as Captain of the Guenonfag Guard, most of us were already here on /lit/ but were Spenglerfags, Schopenhauerfags, Evolafags, Tedfags, Nietzschefags, etc

>>20792511
>most of us were already here on /lit/ but were Spenglerfags, Schopenhauerfags, Evolafags, Tedfags, Nietzschefags, etc

so you already had your anime twitter account, got it

>>20792437
this is all just an analogy for macrocosm-microcosm, visible-invisible, manifest-unmanifest, as above so below, the visible nun which is the lower half is obviously then the inferior world, what he does not specify is that the "intermdiary world" corresponds to the Waw
between Nun-Waw-Nun as specified here in this pic. >>20790396
nun-vav-nun (hebrew) and nun in kabbalah etc. has a different significance, the gematria 50 is not particularly special but that would correspond to biblical quotes etc.
anyway this "science of letters" stuff is just like an autistic apriori mysticism where the letter in itself is redundant, for example for the arabic word "allah" you can find many autistic types of linguistic mysticism talking about the contours of the letter and so on. etc. the letters in themselves are not special its about the metaphysics imbued in them, so guenons comments on na and nun etc. seem redundant as he is trying to link it back to a sort of historical mysticism of the formation of "traditions"

>>20792542
Desu

>>20790054
4chan legend.

>>20790054
it's an author that writes to form a cult
it's the result of reading him
eventually the retards become Islamists too

just read
https://olavodecarvalho-org.translate.goog/as-garras-da-esfinge-rene-guenon-e-a-islamizacao-do-ocidente/?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-BR&_x_tr_pto=wapp

>cue to guenonfags be disingenuous and misinterpret everything

>>20792511
This desu. If it weren't for Schopenhauer and Jung, I could not have taken Traditionalism seriously (I still think Jung is based and the Trads shouldn't be dismissive of him though).

>>20792460
>an animal disguised as a person
Another person who was refuted and BTFO by Guenonfag and who still seethes about it to this day. Sad!

>>20792573
Olava’ essay is dumb and the multiple errors in it have been pointed out in multiple threads here already; Guenon’s books refute the false premise he was trying to promote the islamization of Europe

>>20792981
He said DON'T be disingenuous about it.

>Read Guenon and decide you're gonna devote your entire life to owning the "hylics" online

lame as shit ideology

>>20792988
Im not

>>20792511
Pretty much this, I'd figure a lot of us started out with Evola (who used to get pushed here wayyy more than Guenon, probably because he's got more /pol/ associations and has all the occult stuff to make him stand out) and then moved on to the Prophet from there.

How dare you say that about Guenon (PBUH)

>>20793577
>>20792511
so you were dumb kids basing your entire personalities off some other edge meme thinker

this is embarrassing

>>20793926
>seething because he got filtered
You envy us

>>20794034
>hurr durr

shitpost

Stay seething pseud

>low IQ religitards who have basic theoretical knowledge think they know better than Guenon
Top kek you delusional retards

>>20793014
>is actually mad

>>20792573
Guenon states openly that he did not want people to follow his life or seek any guidance from it, are you purposefully being disingenuous or are you just a retard? either way the fact that you're so upset by Guenon is pathetic, move on with your life and just be religious, esotericism clearly isn't for you.

>>20792460
I came to this board after discovering Guenon and Evola, I believe that the forces of Light/Tradition are beginning to rally as the forces of darkness and subversion consolidate and move forward with their goal to destroy humanity. Whatever the case there is a global awakening taking place and it will only continue, make sure you're on the right side, which usually means don't let your desire or more base instincts control you.

>>20793577
Evola is better for practical matters, Guenon for theoretical. His book on Hermeticism and the Ur Group writings as an intro to initiatic sciences are top tier, far beyond the regular occult crap most people will fall into. Guenon wasn't overly impressed, (it is interesting to read the letters he sent to de Giorgio wherein he asks for the latest issues and talks about them) but then again he was into his 40s as they were being published, he had long since been initiated into multiple traditions.

>>20790054
>>20790054
PBUH

>>20792573
is there a proper translation?

Lol, not a single anon in this thread even tried to answer OP. Probably because Guenon didn't say anything of worth or comprehensible to nonschizo people.

>>20795428
Typical cultist behaviour. What do you expect if anythinf this proves OPs point.

Traditionalism is just a cope for the middle IQ tier, who feels insecure knowing there are people out there who's level of understanding are way above theirs, that way they dont have to pretend all those philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, etc are valid, they just call them materialists, decadent or profane or whatever and just life in their own little bubble.

The truth is, you can easily be a mystic, or theologian, or occultist, or whatever from either a Christian or Enlightenment perspective, no problem what so ever, neoliberalism is NOT the esoteric core, or even mainstream, its an heresy (to us trad speak)

But... and here it comes, the average IQ in Europe is and was in many places, way higher, then in most of the literate orient or ancient world of the past. We have hundreds of Plato's and Aristotles.

This intimidates some men. Thus traditionalism.

>>20795455
If they are so smart why don't they disbelieve taxes from existence like they did weekly church?

>>20795428
Even if Guenon was wrong about 1 or 2 topics in some essay, which isnt totally clear and may be due to a bad translation, thats not enough to ever make me consider rejecting his broader ideas in general which are obviously correct; I am able to see the forest through the trees

>>20795469
I read this thread hoping someone of this opinion would actually provide some of those good ideas. Apparently no one was able to go “yeah, that letter analysis is dumb, but his <x> work is great.”

Seems like it would be an easy W.

>>20795466
>If they are so smart why don't they disbelieve taxes from existence like they did weekly ch

what a midwit awnser, because a system of taxation works to keep up a relatively stable society.

>>20795478
>because a system of taxation works to keep up a relatively stable society.
With open borders comes global favela, distrust, no-go zones for populace and officials alike...
That sounds like bullshit. The government, taxation, laws etc. are just an excuse for people to not stop baby torture near them.

>>20795485
>The government, taxation, laws etc. are just an excuse for people to not stop baby torture near them.
yeah mate, you are a sane person and not a rambling idiot.....

>>20795490
Circumcision is a vile and evil baby torture ritual, and all laws in the world protect it. Yet all humans have always agreed; baby torture is wrong.

We have moral needs, and moral desires. How about not using laws to enforce moral starvation?

>>20795455
Mathematicians are valid, most of the rest aren't. That's not conjecture, it's just a self-admitted fact. Philosophers and scientists would agree, none of them do not even claim to know anything about what is universally true. They have no understanding properly speaking, just memory of various meaningless facts which might be more or less useful depending on the discipline.
>But... and here it comes, the average IQ in Europe is and was in many places, way higher, then in most of the literate orient or ancient world of the past. We have hundreds of Plato's and Aristotles.
This is not even true. But Aristotle is referenced constantly by Guenon, so I don't see how this is a trike against him.

>>20790262
>But it's clear this symbol is what he's referring to...
its so "clear" later in the thread he recants, and says its a different letter or maybe an orthographic variation of the letter, or maybe the translation is imprecise, and is left with stupefied by uncertainty, Guenonfags are full of themselves.

>>20795512
I never recanted it, I gave other possibilities. That is still the most likely one he was referring to.

>>20795526
>I gave other possibilities... which dont work, because their geometrical properties exclude them from being considered as valid "possibilities"
>I never recanted!
If you gave other possibilities that means you're uncertain and have changed your position, and a change of position - which firstly required a recanting of the original supposed obviousness of that letter fitting the criteria specified by guenon.
Damage control and mental gymnastics, it is not s matter of "most likely" guénon gave a very clear description of the letters properties, and that letter does not meet the requirements in itself, or in any other hypothetical orthographical variation, so it most certainly is not that letter, and you are left stupefied by yhe ambiguity and uncertainty of the matter, even the publisher who printed the book with that essay falsely reproduced it by including the letter Va, as opposed to some "Na" - all of which do not meet the criteria,
JUST ADMIT IT, That thing guénon tried to do with the letters there was just conforming to his own preconceived biases, before he even attempted to draw out that specific particular meaning from his observation he already had that meaning in mind, his analysis was therefore devoid of any objectivity, you total midwit, what does the "alchemical sun symbol" etc. Have to do with devengari or arabic? Imagine being so inflexible and stubborn, Guénon is wrong, and you have no evidence to suggest otherwise, the arguments and observations he made were entirely subjective and do not even conform to reality. Your faithfulness to not the objective reality of guénons writings makes it clear to me at least that all the other objective errors of a similar nature in his work on symbology, totally evaded your understanding, you can easily be described as a blind follower.

>>20795526
I bet you took "King of the world" at face value too, but after thoroughly researching guénons claims, I found similar errors, and realized he was just stringing things together like a total schizo, this blind acceptance of guénons writing can only be described as cultish, and then after looking through more and more of his work on symbology, I found more and more of this speculative ambiguity, its indefensible, in the final analysis it is obvious to see that guénon was under the influence of opiates.

>>20795587
>JUST ADMIT IT
>>>Onlyfags.com

>Rene Guenon is based (pbuh)

>>20795607
These sorts of errors of guénon are no doubt to be expected considering the milleu of occultists he came out of, just read Gérard Encausse (Papus), stuff coming from French Martinism, etc. and you will see there the same sorts of baseless subjective work on symbology, linguistic mysticism etc.
Of course you are nothing but a cultist, and probably have a surface level familiarity with the writings rfrom these people, in the first place, you just read the wessaay like "Mysteries of Nūn" and don't even think about it, or care to really understand the claims being made,

>>20795587
>If you gave other possibilities that means you're uncertain and have changed your position
I already stated that I did not know for certain, and I provided possibilities for what Guenon was actually referring to because the other poster did not know. It's as simple as that, the rest of your post is simply making up drama that doesn't exist.
>all of which do not meet the criteria,
I already showed how they met the criteria earlier, and I know for a fact you are the same poster as before who is simply refusing to let go of this for some reason.

>>20795602
>but after thoroughly researching guénons claims, I found similar errors
So go on then.

Guenon fundamentally misunderstood Ibn Arabi and tried to pass him off as the equivalent of Shankara within Islam, when really he is much closer to Ramanuja. It's an embarrassing mistake and Guenonians try to play it down. It's a huge problem because of the importance Guenon put on Islam being the best path for westernizers, and that it breaks Guenon's pan-Vedanta perennialism. If the greatest of Sufi metaphysicians is actually teaching Ramanuja, then really where lies the greatness and expediency of Islam for attaining the goals of Advaita?

It boggles the mind to believe you could spend years studying Ibn Arabi and his subtle and compelling arguments against Advaita positions and then just wind up an Advaitin anyway. Pure cope on par with the most absurd of post-modern critical theory.

It shows that the peaks of esoterism and metaphysics within traditions may actually not be communicating Advaita positions. The idea that Advaita must be the peak is probably not founded at all in reality and only exists in Guenon's mind. His very own Sanskrit teacher was one of the first to tell Guenon this, Advaita isn't primary and primordial.

>>20795687
Ramanuja is literally called the "Al-Arabi" of Hinduism, kek.

>>20795687
Of course plus Guenon's exoteric/esoteric distinction doesn't really apply to religions other than Islam. He got refuted by Schuon on sacramental initiation and Schuon himself was able to understand that Ibn Arabi contradicted Shankara.

>>20795687
>It's an embarrassing mistake and Guenonians try to play it down. It's a huge problem because of the importance Guenon put on Islam being the best path for westernizers
False, Guenon never said Islam was the best but he said that it was the easiest for a westerner to integrate into, which is not a value judgement. The easiest path is not always the best path as the Upanishads themselves note; the contrary is often true.

> and that it breaks Guenon's pan-Vedanta perennialism.
Not really, because according to Advaita following a watered
-down version of Advaita like Ramanuja or Ibn Arabi on earth makes you more likely to attain the Advaita enlightenment either in the next life or in heaven (Brahmaloka), so its still a valid indirect approach to God from the Advaita POV. And only a small elite who are willing to become celibate monks are actually supposed to follow the Advaita path anyway. Most of the people who wrote to Guenon probably did not have the willpower and mental fortitude to become lifelong posessionless celibate monks anyways and with people like these they would be worse off trying to follow Advaita and failing instead of going with an easier watered-down path to God.

>If the greatest of Sufi metaphysicians is actually teaching Ramanuja, then really where lies the greatness and expediency of Islam for attaining the goals of Advaita?
see above

>It boggles the mind to believe you could spend years studying Ibn Arabi and his subtle and compelling arguments against Advaita positions
Ibn Arabi didn’t have any!

>and then just wind up an Advaitin anyway.
Because its unsurpassable

>It shows that the peaks of esoterism and metaphysics within traditions may actually not be communicating Advaita positions.
Not really because that’s just one example. But Taoism is practically the same as Advaita when it comes to non-dualism, and Sikhism is almost identical as well, and certain schools of Vajrayana and Chan Buddhism are as well.

>The idea that Advaita must be the peak is probably not founded at all in reality and only exists in Guenon's mind.
No, he has quite good reasons namely that their metaphysics is unsurpassed, and its free of sentimentalism (unlike Ibn Arabi who has accurately been called an a priori mysticist and moralist); and its reflected in multiple other traditions. Furthermore non-dualism accommodates and subsumes both dualism and qualified non-dualism as lower levels of spiritual understanding.

>Advaita isn't primary and primordial.
It is though, if you just go with a straightforward reading of the primary Upanishads you get Advaita; the bhakti stuff comes from later texts like Pancharatra.

You have not read Shankara, right?

>>20795763
>Shankara has never been refuted. Read my disingenuous wall of text.

>>20795781
>"Shankara has never been refuted"

>>20795763
>False, Guenon never said Islam was the best but he said that it was the easiest for a westerner to integrate into, which is not a value judgement. The easiest path is not always the best path as the Upanishads themselves note; the contrary is often true.

Guenon believed Europe (Catholicism) needed to draw on Islam to regain spiritual understanding and initiation. It's clear Islam is the only path for Europe, directly or indirectly.

>>20795804
>Guenon believed Europe (Catholicism) needed to draw on Islam to regain spiritual understanding and initiation. It's clear Islam is the only path for Europe, directly or indirectly.
Have you read him? He never says that once and in fact in ‘Crisis of the Modern World’ he explicitly warns against the Islamic domination of Europe as an inferior solution to the problem of modernity because of how it would be accompanied by unrest and conflict and that in part because of this it would be a better solution for European intellectuals to restore their own tradition instead of adopting something foreign. Nor did Guenon ever say that this restoration has to occur with any sort of special preference for Islamic teachings, but he left it open-ended as to how it might occur.

>>20795804
>>20795763
>>20795687
It's a big problem for Perennialism because Akbarian Sufism was supposed to be the link that would revitalize the west. Akbarian Sufism was supposed to have the knowledge of Advaita intact and then pass it on to Europeans, either directly or indirectly and then Catholicism would regain its esoterism and Europe would be saved from disaster.

But all of this is built upon Guenon's own mistaken beliefs of Sufism. Imagine believing a guy who puts this much weight on Sufism to save the west, but has actually read so little on Sufism in the primary texts and only acquires his knowledge through hearsay.

>>20795816
>Akbarian Sufism was supposed to have the knowledge of Advaita intact and then pass it on to Europeans, either directly or indirectly and then Catholicism would regain its esoterism and Europe would be saved from disaster.
this is refuted here >>20795813; it appears you are the real skim reader and not Guenon if that was your takeaway

>>20795813
The domination isn't poltical, retard. You idiot Guenonians always chose a strawman to attack. Islam is simply spiritually superior to Catholicism for Guenon. This isn't up for debate.

The restoration is only feasible through Islam. Again, you're only saying this isn't the case because I'm using it against Guenon, in all other circumstances (ie if I were using it positively) you'd agree, because it's obvious. Guenon believes it's the Sufi elite that will communicate and rekindle spiritual realization and initiation to Europeans. Islam has the spiritual authority.

>>20795821
No, it's not retard. He wrote a whole book saying exactly this and it's why Catholics finally broke off with him. Guenonians literally don't understand the most basic things about Guenon because they are too caught up in the memes and the aesthetic of the Guenon cult of personality.

Guenonians will literally deny a central teaching of Guenon in order to save face for him on 4chan.

Incredible.

>>20795825
>spiritually superior
lol, this whole materialisation and comparison of "tradition" is incredibly myopic, "The restoration is only feasible through Islam" do you think the moment Europeans all adopt Islam is the moment we enter the Satya Yuga or something, just lol.
I wonder what you exactly mean, the domination isn't political, but the restoration is? How does that work exactly?

>>20795825
>The domination isn't poltical, retard.
I didn't say it was you idiot; in the book in that passage he is talking about wider Europe adopting Islam as their religion which he says in an INFERIOR solution which directly refutes your BS claims
>Islam is simply spiritually superior to Catholicism for Guenon. This isn't up for debate.
As is every tradition that fully retains its metaphysical teachings intact
>The restoration is only feasible through Islam.
He never said this in any of his books and letters; it's just a strawman that you are creating and attacking even though it has no foundation in anything; there is no reason why groups of Europeans cannot adopt Vajrayana Buddhism, Taoism, Tantric Hinduism, Sikhism etc etc or a synthesis of that and another thing like masonry or hermeticism etc

>>20795825
>Guenon believes it's the Sufi elite that will communicate and rekindle spiritual realization and initiation to Europeans. Islam has the spiritual authority.
If this is truly what Guenon believes, then just lol. does he not realize that the majority of muslims are lacking sufism aswell, so does this mean he thinks even islamic exoterism is feasible? Wouldn't sufism need to be "rekindled" everywhere, or just in europe? Globohomo sufism, what a larp.

>>20795826
>He wrote a whole book saying exactly this
cite the exact passage where he allegedly says it has to be Islam then you liar

>>20795840
>INFERIOR solution
He does, and in East and West he says it is a lesser outcome and it would not be a good thing. aswell because of the Ethnic revolts etc. the conflicts as you said, which may arise from the West being "absorbed" into the East.

>>20795843
>If this is truly what Guenon believes, then just lol. does he not realize that the majority of muslims are lacking sufism aswell,
He is well aware and he says in his books that muslims are the most western-like easterners and he hints that exoteric Islam has a lot of the same flaws as other exoteric Abrahamism like unnecessary concessions to sentiment that are not rooted in metaphysical truth etc

where's that shankara chart?

>>20795829
Retarded hylics hate Guenon so much that they will repeatedly attribute false statements and ideas to him that he explicitly states that he disagrees with in his actual books; just to help soothe their anguished butthurt over the fact that people on /lit/ like Guenon.

Incredible.

>>20795868
PBUH

>>20795816
Mughal Shahzada Dara Shikoh (1615 - 1659) wrote a book entitled
Majma-ul-Bahrain (“The Mingling of Two Oceans” or “The Confluence of the Two Seas”) being a comparative work between Islam and Hinduism, or Sufism and Vedanta specifically. As the title may make clear, he viewed it as a natural harmony and resonance, both of them being as if “two seas ultimately merging into one”. There has been an esoteric undercurrent in Sufism of full-blown perennialism and universalism for hundreds of years, as well as of skirting around the strict Islamic Sharia with ecstatic odes to non-duality, a penchant for mystical “blasphemies”, paradoxes, and the like. It’s a fascinating historical case, which is that the more universally-minded Sufis had to conceal their intentions, motives, and beliefs so as not to be executed (at worst), but still felt the profound inescapable urge to get their ideas out somehow.

The Persian philosopher, Sufi mystic, and founder of the Iranian school of Illuminationism, Shihab al-Din Yahya ibn Habash Suhrawardi (1154 - 1191), is known for claiming in works of his such as “The Philosophy of Illumination” that the eternal stream of wisdom he is expounding was also known and preached by former figures of the chain of transmission of this wisdom, even some not strictly tied to the founding Islam, such as Plato, Hermès Trismegistus, Pythagoras, and the ancient Zoroastrians.

Anyway to make a long story short Guenon’s contentions about something like Sufism, for instance, clearly don’t exist in a vacuum, even if they seem awry or biased or flawed at a casual glance. There really are and have been heavily esoteric, mystical, non-dualistic, sometimes rather perennialistic/universalist leanings among Sufis, which is not always openly and publicly broadcasted because they don’t wish to be unduly persecuted. And it’s NOT just New Age figures like Inayat Khan.

>>20795885
>>20795816
Another very briefly recounted parallel between Vedanta and Sufism: Mansur al-Hallaj (c. 858 - 922) was a Persian sage and Sufi martyr famously executed for ecstatic utterances of his such as “A’nal-Haqq,” or “I am the Truth,” al-Haqq or the Truth being one of the traditional 99 names of Allah.

He is also said to have had a special reverence and appreciation for the life, teachings, and sayings of Christ, and held to have emphasized that Christ was a Sufic master — as well as, astoundingly enough, to have prayed for forgiveness of his executors and tormentors as he was being killed, thereby bringing the Imitatione Christi to a whole new level.

There’s really almost no historical analogue or parallel to Sufism, which is a really very fascinating phenomenon. Some wise, devoted Central Asian and Middle Eastern sages decided to actually try to learn from the people and religions surrounding them, instead of just going to them as “missionaries” to “convert them.” They received Vajrayana/Tantric Tibetan Buddhist influences, Vedantic Yogic and Hindu Tantric influences, inspiration from Chan and Zen Buddhism, and Mahayana Buddhism at large (there having been many Buddhist monasteries set up in Afghanistan for many centuries, Afghanistan being one of the hubs of the development of Sufism), as well as from the Western Judeo-Christian tradition which is the basis of Islam, and apposite, resonant trends to this in the West such as Neoplatonism, Ancient Greek philosophy at large, Hermeticism, and the like.

But if you read old Sufi literature and classics you won’t see them always explicitly spelling it out for you, that they are universalists. Rather, they just speak of the spiritual truth as they see it — all authentic truth scattered widely throughout various cultures of the world having its ultimate original source in the One Truth, as a Sufi esoteric belief might go, and, hence, the obsession with “influences,” “who influenced whom,” being rather petty and close-minded.

As a Sufi dictum goes, “Pears do not grow only in Samarkand.” The divine wisdom, the blessings and inspiration of God, could have been received by a Neoplatonist here, the Hermetic sages there, and the Vedantic yogis and rishis of India, because pears can grow in different countries, and be grown by people who never necessarily heard of or personally went and borrowed seeds from every pear-grower in the world.

So, bizarrely enough, it is almost as if some forms of Sufism are both within yet beyond Islam. In this respect, I’m not even totally on the same wavelength as Guenon, because Guenon paradoxically privileged the cultural dogmatic source of Sufism (in the form of traditional Islam) as a necessity to learning from Sufism, which seems to have been one of his big head-trips, that a tradition meant to transcend prejudice and dogma was used by him as justification for becoming more prejudiced and dogmatic.

>>20790062
The irony is that Guenon can only be appreciated for long periods of time by midwits. If you do not graduate from Guenon, you’ve been duped.

>>20795840
You are literally denying a core teaching of Guenon and pretending like Islam had no importance to him, especially in the context of revitalizing Europe. You've resorted to turning Guenon into Schuon in order to save face from Guenon's mistaken beliefs about Sufism.

>>20795843
>does he not realize that the majority of muslims are lacking sufism aswell

The problem is deeper. It's that Guenon's understanding of Sufism doesn't cohere with reality. He was inserting a bunch of his beliefs into what he thought Sufism was or needed to be.


>>20795885
>>20796055
I'll just say that Hallaj doesn't really work for Guenon because he was too ectastic. Guenon preferred sobriety to ectasy. Ibn Arabi comes closer to Guenon but again the Station of No Station is not the same thing as Shankaran gnosis, although it could seem that way.

To say that there are Sufis who are more in line with Guenon doesn't quite fix the problem. Ibn Arabi was supposed to be the most elite and the best, and as such he was supposed to have agreed with Shankara but that's not the case. So now the cope is to mention some lesser known Sufis that Guenon never really engaged with at all.

>>20796055
>>20795885
Finally, if you look at the Persian poet and Sufi Farid ud-Din Attar‘s famous work, “The Conference of the Birds” or the Mantiq-ut-Tayr, that famously recounts the allegory of the birds of the world gathering together to decide on who their leader should be, then go on a quest to find the mythical Simorgh to be their leader, a benevolent phoenix-like figure of Persian mythology. In the end, only thirty birds remain after all the trials, and when they meet the Simorgh, Attar does some surreally beautiful wordplay and a twist on the fact that in Persian, si = thirty and morgh = birds; hence, the Simorgh is the thirty birds and the thirty birds are the Simorgh that they meet.

>If Simorgh unveils its face to you, you will find
>that all the birds, be they thirty or forty or more,
>are but the shadows cast by that unveiling.
>What shadow is ever separated from its maker?
>Do you see?
>The shadow and its maker are one and the same,
>so get over surfaces and delve into mysteries.

>>20795840
>He never said this in any of his books and letters; it's just a strawman that you are creating and attacking even though it has no foundation in anything; there is no reason why groups of Europeans cannot adopt Vajrayana Buddhism, Taoism, Tantric Hinduism, Sikhism etc etc or a synthesis of that and another thing like masonry or hermeticism etc

Are you being genuine right now or coping? This is important because if this is the level of understanding coming from Guenonians then there's really no point engaging with them at all. They haven't understood Guenon and instead have a half-baked idea of him that is built up by basedboy aestheticism.

Guenonians are claiming, I kid you not, that Guenon believed Vajrayana Buddhism could revitalize Europe. Soon Guenonians will be denying that Guenon ever set foot in Egypt.

>>20796100
>You are literally denying a core teaching of Guenon
No, im calling out your bullshit and lies, you have not provided a single source to back up your claim this is a “teaching” of his; and its a false claim

>and pretending like Islam had no importance to him, especially in the context of revitalizing Europe.
He never said or wrote that this restoration (of traditions already within western thought like masonry or Christian initiation) had to or should be more “Islamic” as opposed to more “Tantric” or “Daoist” or whatever

>You've resorted to turning Guenon into Schuon in order to save face from Guenon's mistaken beliefs about Sufism.
No, im just basing myself on what he actually wrote, unlike your desperate strawmen misrepresentations that you spam as a form of coping

The problem is deeper. It's that Guenon's understanding of Sufism doesn't cohere with reality.

>He was inserting a bunch of his beliefs into what he thought Sufism was or needed to be.
Not really, he was acquainted with Sufism firsthand and received a 2nd traditional initiation into it from an Egyptian Muslim when he was in Egypt in addition to the first one that was over a decade earlier, and he never denied that there were internal gradations and differences of opinion within Sufism

>I'll just say that Hallaj doesn't really work for Guenon because he was too ectastic.
That’s kind of irrelevant, because there have been plenty of Indians who have wrote ecstatic-style texts which are ultimately talking about Advaita style non-dualism; it can be just another way of approaching it that is more suitable for certain people

>To say that there are Sufis who are more in line with Guenon doesn't quite fix the problem.
what problem?

>and as such he was supposed to have agreed with Shankara but that's not the case.
Guenon also says following Ramanuja is basically an indirect approach to God and is acceptable/valid and from this it follows that other Sufi doctrines that are not fully on board with non-dualism may be so as well

>So now the cope is to mention some lesser known Sufis that Guenon never really engaged with at all.
False, Guenon cites and discusses al-hallaj in his book Symbolism of The Cross

>>20795881
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttx_QO8HSkM

>>20796114
>Are you being genuine right now or coping?
Im being 100% genuine
>This is important because if this is the level of understanding coming from Guenonians then there's really no point engaging with them at all.
Ironic coming from someone who constantly tells lies and repeats strawmen
>They haven't understood Guenon
You have not understood him at all as evinced by you attributing ideas to him which he never said

>Guenonians are claiming, I kid you not, that Guenon believed Vajrayana Buddhism could revitalize Europe.
What he believed was that the restoration of western traditions could occur with the help of insights from the east, it doesn’t matter which eastern school as long as its not too divergent from the primordial truth . Among eastern schools he considered certain types of Vajrayana Buddhism to be valid and basically in agreement with Advaita, which in certain cases they arguably are. Hence it follows logically from this that Christians trying to do this could learn from Dzogchen Buddhism for example just like they could from Advaita, which is fully consistent with Guenon’s views as expressed in his writing. Are you confused about this or something?

>>20796100
>I'll just say that Hallaj doesn't really work for Guenon because he was too ectastic. Guenon preferred sobriety to ectasy. Ibn Arabi comes closer to Guenon but again the Station of No Station is not the same thing as Shankaran gnosis, although it could seem that way.
Yeah, I was gonna bring that up interestingly enough, the “sobriety” vs. “ecstasy” distinction, with even many renowned Sufis expressing discomfort over Mansur al-Hallaj’s life, mode of behavior and teaching style, as too excessive and not sober and disciplined enough.

I don’t worship Guenon anyway in terms of making a personality cult around him, that seems to be a barrier to the wisdom he was trying to distill from various of the world’s religious traditions, which position (that of the scholarly expositor of the nuances of various religious traditions) is different from setting himself up as a prophet, avatar, messiah, or founder of some new religion. Some people may be. more attached and devoted to him, I view him as another mystical writer, with a great and disciplined intellect and a gift for scholarship, but not necessarily as an idol, so if you bring up little nitpicking details he gets wrong it’s not really any skin off my back. Quite a few of the fundamental arguments and ideas still stand up pretty well by themselves.

>>20796190
Hallaj was too ecstatic, too "mystical", and finally he got executed for heresy, to be someone Guenon would really draw on. Also, it's often said of Hallaj that he too only taught a modified non-dualism, that individuality and distinction is preserved in the highest unity.

>>20796179
Alright you're pretty autistic so I'll try to make this as clear as possible to understand what is going on between us. I am saying Guenon did not consider anything but Islam as a realistic way to revitalize Europe. You are saying, no I am stupid, don't you know Guenon took seriously the possibility of Vajrayana Buddhism revitalizing Europe?

To say that they're in agreement isn't the point I am making and you know this. This is a question of what is realistic, and what is most expedient. Guenon never considered fucking Dzogchen to be a possibility of revitalizing Europe. You are insane.

>>20790054
>Guénon
Who?

The essence of guenonian spiritual realization is to do pilpul online.

>>20796258
>I am saying Guenon did not consider anything but Islam as a realistic way to revitalize Europe.
I understand, but that’s a totally false bullshit claim with no basis in any of Guenon’s letters and books, he never says it once and its not even implied anywhere so why do you keep falsely attributing it to him? Because you are a coping liar

>You are saying, no I am stupid, don't you know Guenon took seriously the possibility of Vajrayana Buddhism revitalizing Europe?
Yes, that is what is directly meant when Guenon says
1) any eastern tradition can provide this revitalizing knowledge
2) some of Vajrayana Buddhism agrees with the primordial tradition (he says this in his very first book)

With these two statements of his, the idea that Vajrayana could help play this role follows as clearly as 1+1= 2, and the same is true of Daoism, Vedanta etc

>This is a question of what is realistic, and what is most expedient.
Sufism and Vajrayana are both not really any more or less realistic/expedient than the others

>Guenon never considered fucking Dzogchen to be a possibility of revitalizing Europe. You are insane.
He mention Vajrayana (which includes Dzogchen) as a valid path in his very first book you dummy!

>>20796335
>and its not even implied anywhere

Incredible. There's no point debating you because you're almost ready to deny Guenon even set foot in Egypt. You are just denying reality for the sake of scoring debate points online.

>>20796335
> Sufism and Vajrayana are both not really any more or less realistic/expedient than the others

You are purposely lying to save face.

>>20796350
>Incredible
Yes, that’s all you have is empty whining like this when people point out how what you say is bullshit. You have no sources to your false claims so all you can do is act like an incredulous faggot every time you get BTFO

>>20796354
Try to prove me wrong

>pro-tip: you cant

>>20796358
No sources? Bullshit?

You are acting as if Guenon was Schuon. Guenon's attachment to Islam is a problem you cannot address so instead you pretend he was never attached to it in that way, never promoted it in that way, and he was basically Schuon.

Turning Guenon into Schuon is an ironic cope because in many ways it's Schuon who brought out the problems and inconsistencies in Guenon and even said it to his face. Schuon is the one who highlights, explicitly and implicitly, Guenon's confused notions of exotericism/esotericism, sacramental initiation, Ibn Arabi etc. Schuon brings out the fact that Guenon's teachings don't always add up.

Rather than accept this the guenon posters continue to turn Guenon's work into a meme cult of personality.

>>20796367
>No sources? Bullshit?
Yes, you have no sources at all and only repeat bullshit

>You are acting as if Guenon was Schuon. Guenon's attachment to Islam
Saying he was “attached” is a subjective judgement and not an objective source that supports any arguments. Guenon literally denied that he had “converted to Islam” and said that someone like him was necessarily ‘unconvertable’ to anything in a letter, which refutes the idea he had some sort of sentimental attachment to Islam; hence your claim is baseless bullshit

>What surprised me also was the regret of not having any biographical information about myself; this is something I have always been formally opposed to, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to the traditional doctrine, individuals count for nothing and must disappear entirely... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; for example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by that very fact "unconvertible" to anything, and he is even the only one who is so; but one can "settle", if it is permitted to express oneself in this way, in such or that tradition according to the circumstances, and especially for reasons of initiation.
— Correspondence with Alain Daniélou, René Guénon, Cairo, 27 August 1947

>>20796381
>Saying he was “attached” is a subjective

You are not worth my time.

>>20796392
He literally says he just settled in it for reasons of initiation, while also basically believing a non-islamic school of Hinduism (Advaita) does the best job of fully explaining the primordial truth, how does imply any sort of sentimental or emotional attachment to Islam? It doesn’t. The conclusion one gets from reading his books is that if he were “attached” to anything it would be Advaita since he is uncompromising when it comes to it but he isn’t uncompromising about Islam/Sufism.

>>20796392
As Schuon pointed out:
>Guénon did not hesitate to say in the review "La Gnose" that the historical religions are "so many
heresies" compared with the "primordial and unanimous Tradition", and he declares in "le Roi du
Monde" that "true esoterism is quite another thing than outward religion and, if it has certain
relationships with it, this can only be insofar as it finds a mode of symbolical expression in
religious forms; it matters little, moreover, that these forms should belong to this religion or that
..."

>>20790054
It’s shilled by uprooted Westerners who think they are so enlightened by reading about the pagan beliefs of cow-worshiping streetshitters who live in filth and poverty, as well as by actual streetshitters and Arabs. It’s all a massive LARP

Vedantized Orthodox Judaism is the future
Problem with Hinduism, as noted by the more vulgar racist types, is that the Shudra have tainted the twice-born castes and have brought the latter’s quality down in all aspects.
Talmudic Judaism would provide the strongest barrier for the initiated CHOSEN while shielding off any influence from the lowly lowly hylic Shudra goyim.

Cut off thee foreskin and join the fight brothers.

>>20796768
traditional Judaism is even more ethnically closed off or exclusivist than Hinduism which in practice actually admits many exceptions.

>>20796766
>who live in filth and poverty,
Camels passing through the eye of a needle, unlike many in the decadent west

>>20796258
different anon btw

>Guenon did not consider anything but Islam as a realistic way to revitalize Europe.
Did he really think it realistic for Europe to actually be revitalized at all though? Because in the Reign of Quantity, he paints a pretty bleak picture with regards to the future of Europe as a whole, and doesn't really seem to believe that there is any hope for a revitalized future.

>>20796350
You got BTFO, the other guy clearly read Guenon and you didn't, just close the tab.

>>20796258
Muslim low IQ alert

>>20796080
Where do we graduate to? Profane philosophy?

>>20795836
That poster is clearly a low IQ muslim living in the West. probably more profane than the average poltard, possibly inbred lol

>>20795825
>Islam is simply spiritually superior to Catholicism for Guenon. This isn't up for debate.
Do you think the state of islam is the same as it was nearly 100 years ago when Guénon was writing? Islam is just as degenerate as christianity, possibly even moreso honestly.

>>20795816
>Europe would be saved from disaster.
It isn't just Europe, it's the entire world. The East went from Trad to the most base materialists (even more than the average Westerner) in a matter of decades.

>>20795804
>It's clear Islam is the only path for Europe, directly or indirectly.
Delusional mooslem knows nothing of esotericism or the forces working behind the scenes

>>20795625
He was initiated into multiple traditions since age 20, east and west, so his judgement and knowledge are almost certainly superior to yours.

>>20797198
>>20797206
>>20797215
>>20797222
>>20797188
stop spamming and respond in single post.

>>20797228
Fuck yu benchod sala

>>20797222
> He was initiated into multiple traditions since age 20, east and west, so his judgement and knowledge are almost certainly superior to yours.

you guys are almost certainly adolescent

>>20797276
Nice opinion, start arguing any time.

guenonbros, I don't feel so good

> He introduces the reader to the Vedic religion, which he goes on to contrast with the Judeo-Christian, not to exalt one above the other, but to explain the salient difference. Smith argues that the two religions lead to antipodal Ends: the Vedic to what he terms “the nirvānic option,” in which “the human” does not survive, and the Christian to salvation, in which it does.
> Not only thus does Smith disprove the so-called “transcendent unity of religions,” but basing himself upon an astounding exegesis discovered by Meister Eckhart, he goes on to show that — contrary again to the prevailing view — the Vedantic categories are in principle subsumed and transcended by the Trinitarian. The author believes that these categorical reflections — admittedly and perforce of an esoteric kind — are called for to terminate the unholy confusion which has for long impeded our comprehension.

>>20797138
>Did he really think it realistic for Europe to actually be revitalized at all though?
the very fact that the Kali Yuga isn't eternal itself heavily implies an eventual restoration to all imbalances

>>20797304
Anyone not a midwit moves on from Guenon. No exceptions.

>>20797304
>he Vedantic categories are in principle subsumed and transcended by the Trinitarian. The author believes that these categorical reflections — admittedly and perforce of an esoteric kind — are called for to terminate the unholy confusion which has for long impeded our comprehension.
What is his reasoning for how the Trinitarian idea subsumes anything? To my knowledge the trinitarian conception is transcended in Advaita as you go higher up insofar as satya-jnana-ananta or sat-chit-ananda are only conditional distinctions used as pointers and they don't actually correspond to any real division or internal difference in ultimate reality/God

>>20797325
To what?

>>20797381
The counter-initiation

>>20797319
Would the restoration of all imbalances come from the efforts of humans though?

>>20797976
I see it as being more like an inevitable law of nature, but that doesn’t rule out humans playing their role in it, but it could work theoretically via just directing or orienting humans in that direction without them knowing, like how the river banks of a river determine where the water goes

>>20797381
an actual tradition or philosophical praxis

>>20795687

this

>>20795763
>Because its unsurpassable

nah, advaita is just crypto buddhism, buddha was considered the teacher of non-dualism(advaya) and nagarjuna designed a way to teach this non-dualist doctrine in a rethorical way with his notion of two realities, a relative and absolute reality, Shankara just translate all those concepts into the hindu paradigm, at the end of the day all Shankara did was rename the "self revealing light" of the dharmakaya as brahma

>>20797304
Guenon addresses this in his book "Initiation and Spiritual Realization" Ch. 8: Salvation and Deliverance, which I will paraphrase:

>In light of the doctrine of multiple states of the being, upon death the exoterist and esoterist have completely different ends as such according to their practice in life. For the exoterist his goal is salvation, namely the preservation of one's humanity after death. Which is an advantage over those who haven't spiritually prepared themselves, for he has avoided the second death, which is also called the psychic death, upon which one would necessarily become one of a myriad of states, such as what we would know as an animal or vegetable, of which would be a serious disadvantage for any serious spiritual seeker because one's spiritual possibilities in such a state are very limited in comparison to a human state.

>As for the esoterist, if upon death they achieve salvation (namely preservation) they would view it as an imprisonment, for their aspirations are much higher, since they view humanity as an individual and conditioned being which in the light of supra-individual yet still conditioned beings remains unsatisfactory.

So guenon does reconcile the two by putting salvation as an exoteric goal and therefore more accessible to the common man, but in the light of the esoteric goal of moksha/deliverance, salvation (though advantageous compared to hell/second death) would be viewed as an arrested state where progress wouldn't be possible for a prolonged period of time.

>>20799027
>nah, advaita is just crypto buddhism, buddha was considered the teacher of non-dualism(advaya) and nagarjuna designed a way to teach this non-dualist doctrine in a rethorical way with his notion of two realities, a relative and absolute reality, Shankara just translate all those concepts into the hindu paradigm,
Wrong, they are totally different concepts. Nagarjuna advocates an epistemic non-dualism that involves saying the absolute is non-different from the relative world of appearances (even though this violates the LNC because of their different attributes) whereas Shankara is talking about an ontological non-dualism where the Absolute underlies the phenomenal world instead of being wholly identical with it.

Furthermore, the pre-Buddhist Upanishads talk about non-dualism and self-luminous awareness centuries before Buddha existed, like when the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad uses the word Advaita in 4.3.32. and then goes on to identify the Atman with Brahman in many other verses

>It becomes (transparent) like water, one, the witness, and without a second. This is the world (state) of Brahman, O Emperor. Thus did Yājñavalkya instruct Janaka: This is its supreme attainment, this is its supreme glory,
- Brihadaranyaka 4.3.32

>at the end of the day all Shankara did was rename the "self revealing light" of the dharmakaya as brahma
The Pre-Buddhist Upanishads were talking about that before Buddha even existed, which is where Shankara gets the idea from.

>When the sun has set, Yajnavalkya and the moon has set and the fire has gone out and speech has stopped, what serves as light for a man?" "The self, indeed, is his light, for with the self as light he sits, goes out, works and returns.
- Brihadaranyaka 4.3.6.

All of this appears in the Upanishads centuries before Buddha which is where Shankara gets it from, but since Buddhists have their heads up their own asses and have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Hinduism they just assume it comes from Buddhism when the opposite is true. Buddha took his entire scheme of karma, rebirth, liberation from samsara from the Upanishads, and the same is true of the ideas of non-dualism and self-luminous awareness which arose in later Buddhism, these latter two ideas dont even begin to be discussed openly/explicitly in Buddhist writings until after the turn of the common era, about 700-800 years AFTER the earliest Upanishads already talked about it.

>>20796190
Guenonfag did a serious disservice to Guénon by setting him up as this new age prophet. I will never forgive him.

>>20790054
Lol what does this retard believe again? Something about meh tradition lmao

>>20798913
>philosophical praxis
nice joke

>>20797304
>>20797336
Nothing ultimately substantial. It's clear from reading Smith's books that, despite the fact he was very intelligent, his obsession with human personality stemmed from some egoistic trauma and need for something to hold onto. Very similar to Augustine in a way when you contrast Augustine's relationship with his mother and Smith's with is late wife.

>>20790054
I've observed him for several years now, and yes, Guenonfag is indeed trying to start a cult, as can be discerned from his fanaticism, missionary behavior and at times outright dissimulation. (Of course it is likely Guenonfag himself started this thread, as is his habit of samefagging)

I would link to some threads in warosu where he was particularly embarrassed but I'm bored and drunk now. Anyone interested can search the archive though.

>>20799802
>he thinks Guenonfag is one poster

>>20799806
Oh there's one Guenonfag, that's self-admitted. I'm not sure what your point is.

>>20799806
There is just search up "are you guenonfag" on warosu, etc. Guenonfag also has a very clear literary style. Are yoy a newfag?

>>20799435

why are lefttrannies and soyy muslims so afraid of Based Guenon?

>>20795506
>Mathematicians are valid, most of the rest aren't.
What the hell is "valid"? Just another sneaky term for profane. Its all just an excuse not to engage with other thinkers.

>>20795872
>hylics
Hilariously thid word has been taken from old gnosruc texts.

>>20796055
>“Pears do not grow only in Samarkand.”
Do pears grow in Europe?

>>20799811
>I'm not sure what your point is.
To lie and deceive.

You know what is funny about Guenonfag and other trads I have met? Their unbending fanaticism has caused me to develop a hatred for their ideology. I actively undermine tradlike groups whenever I can and trust me, I do meet these occasionally in the Dutch nationalist community.

>>20799964
>Dutch
>>>/int/

>>20799964
so you've basically turned into a kike because the shitposting got to you?

>>20799964
Even more so the harashment of several religious groups has made me wonder about atheism again, why do all religions get it wrong? Because god is a leftwing concept.

>>20799964
Fanaticism couldn't be further removed from what Guénon intended, if anything you are just seeing the merging of the european protestant like evangelistic tendency and the ideas of guénon mixxed together into a strange abomination.

>>20799970
No mate you are the kike. I am antisemitic towards pushy trads

>>20799975
please don't be upset

>>20799974
Right, all the religious wars by catholics, muslims, jews, zoroastrians and various hindhu groups, thats all just.... an illusion.

>>20799977
And some more passive agressiveness designed to make me seeth.

>>20799978
Guenon didn't advocate for wars you ass

>>20799978
What are you talking about? Real Trads don't join these larpy political organizations, so the Trads you are discriminating against are not Real Trads.

>>20799978
The counter-initiation has appropriated this "Trad" moniker and distorted it, "Trad" has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Yet you guys who dont read seem to think so, and are fooled by these midwits who are Trad-pretenders.

>>20799982
im just saying it doesn't seem like a good idea to turn into a sneak because the guenonposting got to u, u cheeky little dutchman

lets focus on syphoning out the 3rd world sewage instead

>>20799970
>>20799974
>>20799972
he is textbook counter-initiation

>>20799983
All the religions he pilfered did. His followers have a militant warlike attitude.

You are going to pay for your rejection of the west. Mark my words.

>>20799984
Not real trads. Oh fuck. Take some respobsibility for what people say.

>>20799984
ya they could be, they could be ksatriya retards

>>20799987
>>20799989
>>20799990
Within 5 minutes three new reaction. Maybe stop pretending you are different people.

Next time there is some trad congress in the netherlands i will happily point out that trads arent real nationalists and dont do anything for the movement and love islam.

We will push you people back.

>>20799999
checked

>>20799999
By all means expose them. They sound like insufferable larpers.

>>20799992
>All the religions he pilfered did.
Guenon would point out that those were degenerations of Traditions, the corrupt priestly caste certainly misuse their power or meddle in things outside of their sphere. also there can be a spiritual dimension to war, and i think maybe your worldview has been influenced by too much humanism and/or materialism, there are worse things than going to fight in wars, especially back then when war was basically a way of life in some sense, it would be "epic"

>>20799999
nice get. please consider that you may be wrong in some areas. i disagree with "trads" trying to spread islam or "islamify" europe, although i think you could probably find some proper based muslims who would share many of your goals who you could work with.

were guenon and evola frens?

>>20800042
>You are very lucky if you managed to get rid of Evola Unfortunately, I couldn't say the same for myself. He must have been very annoyed when he had to admit the impossibility of introducing into his reissue of “Ur” the articles of mine that he had in view; but, as soon as he is thus disappointed on one side, he immediately throws himself on some other project. After that, he had the idea of translating some of my books, and even before talking to me about it, he had already agreed on the edition with Ercole Alvi (the son of Ciro Alvi, who taken over from Casa Atanòr); when he wrote to me on this subject, I could only tell him that the translation of “Spiritual Authority”, which was the first one envisaged, had already been done by Rocco; I believe that in the end he will content himself with republishing the translation of the “King of the World” by Reghini. When Evolaknew that, he wanted to undertake the “Great Triad”, but this one happens to have been started from another side; in his last letter, he tells me with a sort of annoyance that he sees that almost all my books are now translated or in the process of being translated. He also recently wrote to Rocco giving him to understand that he would like to contribute to his review, which does not please him much for more than one reason; all this ends up becoming a real persecution! – “Lo Yoga della potenza”, which indeed appeared at Bocca shortly after the “Aperçus”, is a more or less revised reissue; he is now preparing that of the “Rivolta contro il mondo moderno”, and he asks me to reread this book to indicate to him the points which I would consider needing modifications. This is all the more bizarre since, for some time, his letters take on a rather disagreeable “discussive” tone, declaring that he disagrees with us on this or on that; if so, why is he so keen to impose a sort of collaboration with him by any means?
-Correspondance avec De Giorgio, René Guénon, non publié, 1924-1949

>>20800043

>>20800043
meant to post this one sorry sirs

>>20799939
No, modern mathematics is profane, it is valid because it is at least in theory considered with truth in general.
>Its all just an excuse not to engage with other thinkers.
There is no need for an excuse not to engage with "thinkers." All that matters is what is right or wrong, how many "thinkers" you "engage with" is totally irrelevant, and is more a recent invention and valuation, started by a certain literary tradition. Which is not to say you can't engage with anyone, but to posit some sort of intrinsic value in "engaging with others" seems to be a projection of weak thinkers, or maybe the naturally extroverted who need external validation to feel secure.

>>20790054
Would it be a waste of time for me to read Guenon if I am Christian?

>>20800071
>extroverted
Traditionalists now use Jungian concepts. Oh the hypocrisy...

>>20800077

>>20800083
I am a Jungian. What does it have to do with Islam? Are these Muslims in the room with us right now?

>>20800071
>a certain literary tradition
Just stop youre trying too hard to simulate guenons style...

Traditionalism is useful only as a stepping stone to overcome your modern upbringing and orientation and to join an actual tradition. If you remain attached to these authors without joining a tradition—or worse, after joining one—you're a pseud.

>>20800100
>and to join an actual tradition.
What is an "actual tradition" and what does it mean to "join" it, what really is the "traditional organisation."
Are you "part" of one of these traditions, are you in some sort of community?

>>20800100
This is true of most forms of "esotericism" existing today. Eventually you get into the real stuff and leave what got you there behind.
>>20800107
An orthodox religion and it's initiatic lineage. For example, actually converting to Buddhism, and receiving empowerments as a Vajrayana practitioner, learning practices like Dzogchen, and dedicating your life and all your effort towards liberation from phenomena.

>>20800145
>actually converting to Buddhism
What do you mean by an "actual conversion" are you a "vajrayana practioner?"

>>20800145
Also do you have any connection to a telegram group called "Elders of The Black Sun" a couple months ago I came across this group saying similar stuff? That is saying things like they have "transcended" guénon, and all this.

>>20800071
>profane
Not a real word!

>>20800006
>those were degenerations of Traditions,
Of course they where {sarc} imagine owning up to what yoy belief.

>>20800002
Oh heckin. Apparently God is now on my side.

>>20800187
How so?

>>20790054
Cult of Guénon > bots of Marx

>>20800175
I mean literally become a Buddhist and not just larp. And no, that was just the only non-Christian religion that I have personally investigated IRL rather than from books or internet. It wasn't in the cards at the time.
>>20800184
Never heard of it. Sounds cool. Basically, in my experience the best starting points for western esotericism are the academics like Hanegraff with their introductory books and the Traditionalist School; then you should move on to primary texts, supplemented with scholarly works on them, and actually join a religion's esoteric tradition. You can start elsewhere, I certainly did, but over time you cut the wheat from the chaff.

>>20800251
>sounds cool
not really, they clearly had a surface level understanding of Guenon and metaphysics, and were strawmanning him, whilst also pushing neopagan rhetoric, etc. and were essentially doing a sort of brain-dead "buddhist proselytism" they also said they disagreed with advaita (which they demonstrated they never understood - therefore they never understood guenon - which they claimed to have) and were pushing buddhist sophistry, clear counter-initiation.
>I mean literally become a Buddhist
sure relatively speaking thats a possibility,
>I certainly did
you speak as if its from a place of accomplishment, what have you accomplished then, what tradition are you a "follower" of, and what have you "converted" to?

>>20800266
It's not an accomplishment. It's just nigh impossible to get interested in Esotericism nowadays without starting in counter-initiatory material. Guénon did, too, joining Freemasonry and briefly being involved in the occult milieu of his day. I was speaking self-deprecatingly, as in, "I started with garbage, too." If I had known of any of this back then I would not have wasted my time and started somewhere better.

>>20800075
NO

>>20800107
We know that for example guenonfag is not initiated and does not practice a religion. He just reads books an Advaita and larps online. Don't be like him.

I have been reading Guenon and I agreed with his advaitin metaphysics but I am starting to have doubts about it but at the same time it also seems to be the logical conclusion of esotericism/mysticism. Let me explain, so far the most popular criticism of guenonian metaphysics which I saw on /lit/ is that complete union without distinction is wrong and that true mysticism (like that found in abrahamic religions) consists in a union with God but with distinction. Now, if the average believer doesn't participate in any union and the mystic participate in union with distinction, isn't it logical that there should also be a step above, of complete union without distinction, like a sort of spiritual hierarchy from 0 to 10? At the same time, I don't really understand what this state of liberation/Moksha implies, if is an awareness of the real Self that was always God but we didn't know it, how does achieving Moksha matters? I know that there are some text which claim that there is even no liberation at all and that there is no distinction between the ego and the Self. This may sounds veey spiritually superior and all but whatever Guenon may say, it really sounds like some modern european philosophical nonsense that has nothing to do with religion.

to the anon who deleted his post

>At the same time, I don't really understand what this state of liberation/Moksha implies, if is an awareness of the real Self that was always God but we didn't know it, how does achieving Moksha matters?
It matters in an immediate practical sense insofar as the complete intuition or experiential realization of this frees a person from unhappyness and fear (which doesn't happen from merely grasping the idea intellectually and understanding it on a verbal level), and it matters with regard to one's journey of path through births insofar as fully realizing it ends the cycle of continued transmigrations (of the subtle body) from physical body to physical body. The Self is like an all-pervasive light that simultaneously illumines many bodies while remaining ever-liberated and totally unaffected by samsara/ignorance/maya; thus even though the Self was never not-liberated to begin with the entire samsara experience continues because of habitual confusion of Self with non-Self and vice versa and the related superimposition of bondage and agentship etc onto the unbound Self; the subtle body that houses the mind/intellect has to fully realize this to stop its own cycle of transmigrations and when happens and the subtle body dissipates at the death of the physical body it just leaves the liberated Self remaining that had already been present as the unaffected innermost awareness of that creature and its mind all along
>I know that there are some text which claim that there is even no liberation at all
When Advaita texts say this they just mean that the Self (Atman-Brahman) is eternally already liberated and so there is no 'real' liberation but the experienced 'liberation' is just a change that happens in the mind/intellect of an embodied creature when it overcomes its false conceptions and not a change in the Self illuminating that creatures mind; ie this change is just another part of the maya but that doesn't change that its necessary for oneself to end the cycle of transmigrations and remain as the Absolute alone forever
>and that there is no distinction between the ego and the Self.
Classical Advaita Vedanta completely and utterly rejects this, I'm not sure where you got that idea from, I don't know what text that was in but I would have to assume (if it was an advaita text) that it meant that the Self is present right now in this very moment as the awareness illumining the ego and thus isn't totally unknown or removed from our present experience (even when its confused with x) and in that way is not something utterly alien to ourselves; but with this said Advaita still clearly recognizes the difference of Self and ego (and discerning the difference is crucial to liberation); Some schools of Tantrism like Kashmir Shaivism DO identify the Self with the ego in a peculiar way AFAIK but Advaita rejects that notion

>>20800043
Why did Guenon-senpai have such disdain for Evola-kun? He just wanted to be noticed…

>>20801839
Evola-kohai ran his mouth a little too much regarding 'Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta'
Senpai Guenon never forgives

>>20801821
Is there any school of tantrism that agrees with Advaita? I ask this because tantrism seems to not require celibacy and such things.

>>20802096
>Is there any school of tantrism that agrees with Advaita?
One of the central philosophers in Shaktism was man named Bhaskararaya; in particular he is considered the main authority of the Sri Vidya school of Shakti-Tantrism from what I understand. In his works he heaps praise upon Adi Shankara and his disciples like Suresvara etc and Bhaskararaya includes Shankara in his guru parampara (chain of teachers) and basically says that Sri Vidya is a part of Shankara's tradition. From what I have read about Bhaskararaya (I have not read his works yet and only a few are translated) is his metaphysics is inspired or very influenced by the late-medieval Advaita philosopher Appaya Dikshita; the only major difference that Im aware of in their metaphysics is that Sri Vidya regards the world as a real creation/emanation unlike Advaita; although I have seen people write that Bhaskararaya downplays whatever differences his metaphysics has with Advaita when they come up in his works. So Sri Vidya isn't a 1:1 copy of Advaita although it gets pretty close (and westerners can be and have been initiated into it; I think the best place to do so is Devipuram in Andhra Pradesh). They are not supposed to remain celibate or aloof from the world from what I understand but like other tantra it's about integrating layers of complex rituals and meditations etc into your normal household life so that you focus on and remember divine unity while going about your normal activities.

Other Hindu tantra schools like the various Shaiva ones seem more opposed to Advaita even when a lot of Advaita concepts find their way into those Shaiva systems in one form or another. But even when they differ philosophically one could still argue that they point to the same end goal of attainment of union with the highest Supreme that is formless, invisible, unconditioned, beyond the akasha etc. The marathi poet-saint Dyaneshwar combines the teachings of the Nath sect of Shaivism/tantrism and Advaita in his works which are fascinating and wonderful reads

Some Buddhist tantric/vajrayana schools also agree with Advaita on various points but that's a whole other complex discussion

>rampant guenonfagging
>seething theosophists
>confused screaming

Gods I love these threads ...

>>20797176
Christian orthodoxy

>>20802378
lol

>>20802367
i love /lit/

hindu philosophy is very nice but what do we make about the hindus themselves, they are a hilarious people

>>20802443

Quite entertaining, yeah. Even with the slim chance for an actual discussion. Guess I'll stick around.

>>20800518
Where would you recommend I start from with his work?

>>20803707
This is a 14 minute long video explaining exactly that

https://youtube.com/watch?v=3HA15y2oQ0E

>>20790054
Dude do you expect me to have read all his stuff? I'm just an Anon grateful for the Anon who did

>>20802477
Fueled by racism supreme over all
Dealt the worst cards by racism supreme over all

>>20800042
Pen pals

Like....
(You)
And )me(

>>20799435
Math made better by brown people

>>20799304
>Buddhists have their heads up their own asses
I think they just don't know and would be happy to discover this organically but would pitch a fit if you just brought it up ought of nowhere.

>>20803781
Thank you, I watched a video buy this guy on Evola but wasn't sure if I should watch more since both Guenon and this youtuber are not coming from a Christian perspective.

I think that I'll just check out what he recommends and if it radically disrupts my theology it won't be the end of the world.

>>20800075
YES

>20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
John 18:20

>>20794903
>esotericism clearly isn't for you.

>First of all, there are no traces of any esoteric Christian organization in the first ten centuries of the Church. Secondly, Our Lord Jesus Christ himself stated emphatically: “I taught nothing in secret.” Even his parables, the meaning of which was not immediately evident to all, were spoken in public, not to a private circle. How is it then possible that the core of the Savior's teaching was kept secret for ten—or twenty—centuries?

>>20790054
>Can someone explain what it is exactly which is so special about this author?

>>20800100

As Evola points out in the entire book that he wrote on the subject, there are no real traditions left in the modern world. Especially for a Westerner. Becoming a Catholic or converting to Islam is going to leave you just as clueless as when you started. It will divert your mind from the Truth by miring you in the politics and empty dogma that typify organised religion today.

>>20805045
Unlike the other Traditionalists, chief among them Guénon and Schuon, Evola never made any efforts to be initiated in any tradition. He did not know much about the catholicism of his own country (as illustrated in Nasr's descriptions of him) just as he had no real experience with Islam. He wanted to synthesize Nietzsche with Tantra along with Hermeticism. He could hardly be considered Traditionalist anyway. The fact of the matter is the other members of the Traditionalist school had no trouble finding initiation in the Orient—Evola was the odd one out.

>>20805131
>He did not know much about the catholicism of his own country
how can this be considered a criticism?
>just as he had no real experience with Islam
and?
>The fact of the matter is the other members of the Traditionalist school had no trouble finding initiation in the Orient—Evola was the odd one out.
you have never been initiated, but perhaps its best for you to believe a series of visualizations, a verbal instruction, or an imparted mantra is magic, maybe in that way it'd become more efficacious

>>20802477
jeets can be bros and pretty based, they also are good at providing the goods and services that we do enjoy (i.e., doing the needful).

>>20805045
>there are no real traditions left in the modern world
this is such a retarded assumption

>>20805131
>Evola never made any efforts to be initiated in any tradition
Yes he did. And after getting paralyzed, he couldn't just go off to India.

He was interested in magical initiations (such as Hermetic alchemy), which he said (and was probably correct in saying it) that they had a character more congenial to the Western spirit (i.e., more "active"). Hence the reason for the Red or Royal Purple, the crown and the King/Emperor, being the sign of the completion of the work in Hermeticism, with the white preceding it.

Anyway, he was extremely interested in these "magical initiations", as you can see by his interest in Kremmerz's Myriam, which he tried to join but ultimately rejected his admission into it when they wouldn't place him high enough in the ranks. He was also tracing other Hermetic or potential Rosicrucian lineages, but who knows if he was ever initiated into them, since I doubt if he found them he would say, and he would be right to keep it secret, since I think those authentic organisations being out in the open would be dangerous. I wonder how they felt about his exposition of the Hermetic Tradition in his book, he seemed quite tight-lipped about Hermeticism later, like in the video interview. I sometimes wonder if he said too much.

Of course many or most of these underground groups may not meet Guenon's criteria for initiatic regularity, but Guenon can be pedantic and impractical. His writings are more useful for a theoretical framework. I think there are still orders in the West who possess the keys to the "secret of secrets", meaning they have the knowledge/power to initiate one through the Great Work. Of course there are so many LARPers or those who only possess speculative knowledge, some of them probably have an "unbroken chain" but the "masters" do not even know what the goal is anymore, as is the case in a lot of freemason circles.

Personally I would respect Evola's decision to stay in the West and not flee to the East, because perhaps he was fulfilling his duty or dharma as a kshatriya, as Guenon fulfilled his in his own way. He stuck around as a guide for the younger generations.

>He did not know much about the catholicism of his own country (as illustrated in Nasr's descriptions of him)
I've seen some of this, is there a link to it?

>>20790111
>>20790114
>>20790125
>>20790145
it is taken from Sain-Yves' Archeometre
https://scienzasacra.blogspot.com/2020/10/maitreyi-non-il-prof-filippi-masetto.html

Have you guys heard of this guy?

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charbonneau-Lassay

If you're into Christian esotericism, he's probably worth checking out. He was published in Etudes Traditionelles with Guenon and they had some "back-and-forth". His main book is translated into English and on z-lib.

>>20805554
peak larp then, there is no bindu in that Na, which is pic. related and this one here >>20790114
nor is there any upwards convexity

Holy based article, came to the exact conclusion that I made in this thread:
>Now it is up to the reader to recognize whether the source of Guénon's statement above, including the description of the form of the "na" and the corresponding numerical value 50, are to be recognized in the Archéomètreof the occultist author, or obediently accept the forced interpretation proposed by Masetto on the form of the Sanskrit 'na' that he himself exhibits. A shape that does not correspond at all to what he claims. I am well aware that those who have undergone a continuous work of persuasion will see that same 'na' with the distorting lenses that have been imposed on them. The unanimity of the pseudosufic crowd of Inner Science is a demonstration of this conditioning. However, even among the unfortunate who find themselves in such hands, there may well be someone who, observing the two images reproduced above, realizes the impossibility of such an interpretation. I also think that persisting in arrogant ignorance is a sign of a very impure mind. Especially when they accuse others of ignorance, who know much more both traditionally and academically. However, it is certainly not Masetto that he can give licenses of tradition to any teacher of which he knows nothing, when he has no objection about the indological teachings that Guénon received from prof. Sylvain Lévi. As for the meeting between the two traditions, considered infallible prophecy, it is a pure imagination that all the signs of the times deny and that no teacherHindu or Muslim has never even remotely conceived.

>And let this grotesque Turin farce end.

I was right, you were wrong according to this blog.

thankyou for the blog sir, seems I was not alone in detecting this absurdity.

>>20805575
>signs of the times deny and that no teacherHindu or Muslim has never even remotely conceived.
Le Archaeometer farce
>>20795625
Here I am further convicted"
"These sorts of errors of guénon are no doubt to be expected considering the milleu of occultists he came out of, just read Gérard Encausse (Papus), stuff coming from French Martinism"
Papus is literally behind the Archaeometer, in which he compiled it after Sain-Yves death.

Guenonfag robots BTFO.

>>20805554
>"स न त न is however incorrect. Guénon has forgotten the long "a", a mistake that not even a first-year Sanskrit student can make."
Guenonfags...

>>20805969
I wonder if Guenon didn't make this "mistake" on purpose. The article on the letter nun was used by Valsan and his successors as a proof that Islam has authority over the other traditions at the end of the cycle. The "islamization of the west" which Olavo de Carvalho saw in "Traditionalism" may seem like a boomer take but if you look more into it, is not that unlikely. Guenon also wrote that it isn't his role to direct anyone towards this or that initiatic organization but in his correspondences he directed multiple people towards the tariqah branches of Schuon, Valsan and Maridort. This looks more like a hidden agenda than foolishness.

>>20806021
>I wonder if Guenon didn't make this "mistake" on purpose. The article on the letter nun was used by Valsan and his successors as a proof that Islam has authority over the other traditions at the end of the cycle. The "islamization of the west" which Olavo de Carvalho saw in "Traditionalism" may seem like a boomer take but if you look more into it, is not that unlikely. Guenon also wrote that it isn't his role to direct anyone towards this or that initiatic organization but in his correspondences he directed multiple people towards the tariqah branches of Schuon, Valsan and Maridort. This looks more like a hidden agenda than foolishness.
good point, it seems like a much more serious mistake because the implications are obviously not non-existent, after all that is why I was so offended because it seemed to be a disingenuous attempt by guenon to reconcile the Islam+Hinduism cycle theory, thanks for bringing that italian blog to my awareness, it is connected to that ved vyasa mandala site, and ekatos editor, all of which seem good unfortunately its in italian... I am impressed, Valsan was a typical guenonfag robot, I don't have much respect for that line of guenonfags, schuons line is better.
It may very well have been a "mistake on purpose" to conform to a hidden agenda, also with the archaeometer stuff - it is occultist rubbish, so I wouldn't even recommend wasting time with it.

>>20806021
>Guenon also wrote that it isn't his role to direct anyone towards this or that initiatic organization but in his correspondences he directed multiple people towards the tariqah branches of Schuon, Valsan and Maridort. This looks more like a hidden agenda than foolishness.
Yeah this is something which is obviously contradictory, it seemed they had a fallout or Valsan etc. accused schuon of "de-islamizing" the tariqa, anyway, there probably was some agenda in the works...

the romanian guenonchad's guenonian knowledge is too deep for the enemies of the guenon cult of /lit/

>>20806086
is literally me who wrote >>20805554 and >>20806021 lol
>>20806038
>>20806041
Guenon also truncated a quote attributed to Joseph de Maistre to fit his ideas
http://dossierschuonguenonislam.blogspirit.com/archive/2016/09/15/a-propos-d-une-citation-tronquee-de-joseph-de-maistre-dans-l-3079748.html

You know, if there would be some actual healthy criticism of Guenon based on proofs, people would have real reasons to stop considering him infallible.

>>20806117
>Guenon also truncated a quote attributed to Joseph de Maistre to fit his ideas
http://dossierschuonguenonislam.blogspirit.com/archive/2016/09/15/a-propos-d-une-citation-tronquee-de-joseph-de-maistre-dans-l-3079748.html
I am aware of this,
>people would have real reasons to stop considering him infallible.
I definitely do not view Guenon as infallible,
>"(...) Most Westerners who have approached or adhered to some tradition have generally started from René Guénon’s books (...) Nevertheless the most qualified ones were then able to verify that Guénon’s approach to the Vedānta was flawed in several points. Others, however, decided to remain in the erroneous Guenonian perspective of a Vedānta-Sāṃkhya in steps, making it their Masada Fortress. (...) It has been a few years now since we last tapped into Guenon’s books. Although grateful to him we teamed him no longer useful having at our disposal the texts of the śaṃkarian paramparā and the living masters of that tradition (...)"
-https://vedavyasamandala.com/en/carlo-rocchi-alatasanti-ladvaita-vedanta-e-i-suoi-piu-consueti-travisamenti/
Even OG guenofag picked up some errors in his book on Advaita.

>>20806157
>>The author of the book here reviewed wanted to reply to their criticism appeared on the Ekatos blog, bringing the discussion back to the level of doctrine with an article entitled Advitīya Caitanyavāda. This was greeted with a great deal of abuse. However, since Dr. Rocchi had challenged our detractors on the doctrinal level, some replied to him in kind, venturing in what for them was uncharted teritory. All their efforts were focused on proving that the metaphysical teaching of the Taṣawwuf is exactly the same as that of the Advaitavāda. To this end, knowing that they were not up to such an argument, they turned to academics whom they considered experts in Taṣawwuf, Vedānta and even Buddhism, forgetting that mere erudition deprived of true knowledge leads to chained errors of interpretation. However, since in many cases the difference between the Sufic doctrines and the doctrine of Śaṃkara was too obvious, those pseudo ṣufi took the liberty of correcting the great Ācārya even going so far as to change the meaning of several upaniṣadic passages. Their ignorance of Vedānta is only second to the arrogance with which they expound their anti-traditional fantasies. Moreover, it is evident that their uncontrolled polemical fury arises from the fear that their readers might see that our doctrinal view is not biased and it is free from the intent to devalue the true sufic doctrines. Indeed, anyone indulging in the Veda Vyāsa Maṇḍala readings will soon find out that there is no contempt or wish to present the Tassawuf teachings in a denigratory fashion. What has been pointed out, texts in hand, is that the highest doctrines of Sufism belong in any case to what in India is called knowledge of the non-Supreme. This is to be understood in the sense that the sufi initiatic path can be effectively undertaken to purify the mind in order to access the path of knowledge, provided, of course, that the master be authentic and disciple qualified to achieve this end. This, however, does not allow anyone to force the characteristics of Islamic doctrines in order to claim that there is a sufic path of knowledge comparable to Advaitavāda.

>>20806160
>>Obviously, Alātaśānti being a document in response to the often crude and derisive attacks it has been the target of, the author could not refrain from pointing out the lack of understanding, ignorance and bad faith of its contradictors. The result is a very enjoyable study text on the authentic Advaita Vedānta, free from academic mental limitations and from Guenonism regimented as a dogmatic system. Most Westerners who have approached or adhered to some tradition have generally started from René Guénon’s books, certainly more attracted by L’Homme et son devenir selon le Vêdânta than by Islamic perspective. Nevertheless the most qualified ones were then able to verify that Guénon’s approach to the Vedānta was flawed in several points. Others, however, decided to remain in the erroneous Guenonian perspective of a Vedānta-Sāṃkhya in steps, making it their Masada Fortress. However, not only do we understand the psychology of our disputants, as we too have long suffered from the same critical obnubilation, but we are also grateful to them for the ramshackle polemic they have been willing to unleash. It has been a few years now since we last tapped into Guenon’s books. Although grateful to him we teamed him no longer useful having at our disposal the texts of the śaṃkarian paramparā and the living masters of that tradition. The controversy induced us to take up again what Guénon wrote on the Advaitavāda, noting his lack of knowledge on this subject and its resulting errors, something that had eluded us at the time. It has been extremely useful to depart from a system not corresponding to the pure advitīya tradition. Dr Rocchi’s book should therefore be evaluated as a text that can direct the attentive, sincere and intelligent reader towards mental purification and the path of knowledge, avoidong the false theological interpretations superimposed on the true Advaitavāda.
The anon who attacks guenons skimreading of sufism/Ibn arabi and default preconceived conflation between advaita and sufism is correct.

>>20806157
The people who view him as infallible are usually those who never read more than two books from him. Is just shitpost shilling coming from all sides due to 4chan culture.

>>20806169
>After his death, groups of Guénonians were formed in Europe, some of them turned into fanatical sects. They declared themselves motu proprio “defenders of the work of René Guénon”, proclaiming its infallibility [20], the universality of his ‘function’ as an envoy of the ‘Supreme Centre’, and promoting the doctrine expressed in its books as a sort of new revelation. In the absence of a real transmission from Guénon, since their only contact was limited to the simple reading of his books, they then sought some ṣufic connection, which recently is rather easy to get [21]. They grafted the Guénonian doctrines into the praxis of the sharī‘a, creating, in fact, a new syncretic pseudo-religion, completly western made for westerners [22]. As it can be easily deduced from the above, those circles of western esotericists collaborate in spreading altered oriental doctrines. As it is in the nature of things what is born eventually dies and even traditional doctrines and rituals born in the empirical domain, eventually will fade away. Only non-dual metaphysics is exempt from the vicissitudes of time, being one, eternal and absolute. This is the true meaning of Vincit Omia Veritas.

[20.] We cannot dwell on Guénon’s alleged infallibility, having already been splendidly dismantled by Carlo Rocchi in Alātaśānti. L’Advaita Vedānta e i suoi più consueti travisamenti, Milano, Ekatos Ed., 2021, pp. 407-411, n. 8.

[21]. R. Guénon himself stated in a letter of 1 November 1927: “I have also been informed that the ṭariqa ‘Alawiyyah] has a zawiya in Paris, in boulevard Saint-Germain, a few steps from here, which makes one fear that it will become too open and may therefore be diverted like many others.” In Rivista di Studi Tradizionali, no. 65.

[22.] Others, belonging to a somehow different Guenonian typology, have made a few rare trips to the land of Islam for a quick contact with a master and rapidly returned. This is totally insufficient. The disciples must spend long periods with the masters, receiving e their teachings and studying under their guidance. Luckily, there have been other more serious people who have spent long periods in contact with shuyūkh and learned ulamā, benefiting from their teaching. As it is natural, they conscientiously avoid showing off for the sake of publicity, they keep away from any controversy, preferring to lead a reserved life in order to dedicate themselves to the method that has been confided to them. For them, the goal is true spiritual realisation and not the urge to excel over followers with weaker minds.

>>20796100
>Guenon preferred sobriety to ectasy. Ibn Arabi comes closer to Guenon but again the Station of No Station is not the same thing as Shankaran gnosis, although it could seem that way.

> It is by no means a question of devaluing different traditional forms, which in their ambit are perfectly orthodox, such as darśana they are perfectly orthodox within the multiform Hindu tradition, here on the contrary we only want to describe the doctrine of the ways of the non-Supreme for what they are. The same is true of the question of devotionalism: the various European Sufi circles, as well as renowned Islamologists and academics, have made available a great deal of material, which is often described as being of very high doctrine and depth: this is not in question, however the question is that , to a disinterested glance, what in these texts seems exquisitely "metaphysics", in the light of Advaitavāda is (almost) always only samsāra, even if it deals with higher states, proximity, immutable essences, etc., indeed precisely inasmuch as it deals with (and arises from the perspective) of all these. They are therefore completely and exactly comparable to the Hindu "devotional" writings, that is bhakta. It is not enough to read "one" or "non-duality" at some point to talk about Advaita , one must understand a whole series of things around. In fact , even the bhaktas speak and worship a saguṇa Brahman and a nirguṇa Brahman , but the nirguṇa Brahman of which they speak does not correspond at all to the Fourth, both ( saguṇa and nirguṇa of the bhaktas) are only the non-supreme. Kāraṇa and Kārya Brahman ( Brahman as cause and effect) are neither śudda Brahman , the pure Brahman , that is, without duality.
How can guenonian sufis recover?

>>20806160
>>20806165
>>20806197
>>20806235
I agree with this but what can we say about advaitins like Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi, who practiced for some time sufism and christianity (I guess that catholicism) and considered them to have the same goal as Advaita? Was this because they were already realized in Advaita when they practiced those traditions? And I wonder if someone who is aware of advaitin metaphysics could use Sufism as a means towards Moksha, going further than the sufis. I guess that this is what Schuon claimed to do.

>>20806235
If it were a question of Liberation, it should in fact be said, as argued in the preface to the book, together with the Upaniṣad :

>"But when for the connoisseur of Ātman everything has become the only Ātman , then what could be seen and with what, what could be smelled and with what, what could be tasted and with what, what could be heard and with what, what could one think and with what, what could one touch and with what, what could one know and with what? " (BU IV.55.15.).

Now, compare this statement with Ibn 'Arabī's statement quoted above, which evidently shows a different point of view, a point of view aimed at founding multiplicity "divinely" instead of removing duality (that is, technically speaking, of the non-Supreme):

>"Know that there was nothing in beginningless eternity ( al-azal ) that could hold up what was in endless eternity ( al-abad ) but the divine Self ( al-huwa ), and the He wanted to see himself according to a vision of perfection and He found himself existent for it and failed, with regard to Himself, the status of the divine Self; then he looked into the immutable essences, but found nothing else whose vision gave him this degree of subjective affirmation ( al-anāna ) than the essence of the Perfect Man ”.

Or compare the Upaniṣad passage with the following famous Hadîth , in order to see how in one case the realization immediately removes duality (through Knowledge), while in the other it justifies it in divinis , in fact necessarily proceeding in a " approach movement "by stages and through rituals:

>“God says: he who adores Me does not cease to approach Me with supererogatory works until I love him; and when I love him, I am the hearing with which he hears, the sight with which he sees, the hand with which he grasps and the foot with which he walks ”(Buhārî, Riqāq , 38).

If you don't notice the differences, then you can't really do anything else.

>>20806255
>>However, for those who have the ability to see and are not sentimentally conditioned, it has finally been established that those expressions of al - Ḥallaj and Bisṭāmi, if correctly understood and brought back to the context of the esoteric doctrine of the Perfect Man and of the anāniyya (as Ibn 'does Arabī himself) do not correspond at all to Tad tvam asi or Aham Brahmasmi ! One cannot confuse al-šāhid with the Sakṣin : the second constitutively refers to the doctrine of the three avasthā , a conception unknown to Ibn 'Arabī and Islam, while al-šāhidit concerns the sensible and imaginal degrees and realities. That is, the two can only be confused by exchanging the three avasthā with the tribhūvana , to put it in the Indian way, a mistake, this, huge. Or by forcibly wanting to correspond the four pādas with the maqamāt . Degrees of manifestation, epiphanic places, veils all refer to the first two states. As long as we speak of: determinations ( ta'ayyunāt ), descents ( tanazzulāt ), effusion ( fayd ), epiphany ( tajallī ), degrees ( marātib ), presences ( haḍarāt ), levels ( darajāt ), manifestations ( mazāhir), modalities or conditions ( šu'ū n), veils ( ḥujub ), even if the "Principle remains unconditional, indeterminate, unmanifest, etc.,", one can be sure, willingly or not, to be in the domain of ignorance, of the distinction or separation and of the aparabrahman vidyā (the knowledge of the non-Supreme, that is all the ways founded on the action, be it external or internal, of an exoteric or initiatory order.

>>20806263
Ibn 'Arabī is very fine in trying to show how the relative is "nothing but Allāh", so as to try to resolve duality while admitting multiplicity to some degree, and perhaps this is also among all attempts, at least in the West , the most refined and vertiginous, but nevertheless it remains necessary to take into account two aspects for the "complete totalization", one immutable and one changeable, one apophatic and the other cataphatic ( nirguṇa and saguṇa , we would say) because it is the 'Absolute itself which is thus determined, which manifests itself, which is poured out (of course, while remaining the same etc ..), and therefore the relative must be included in some way, since the latter is not the product of ignorance the Advaitavada, rather it is precisely established in eternity, it has its roots in the divine Science (typical conception of a sort of ordo idearum that is found in the ways of the non-Supreme). In fact, the Absolute thus conceived ends up being composed of two aspects, and this is precisely the same limit of Coomaraswamy and of Guénon who follows it there, of Ramanuja or whoever for them, and which corresponds only to that "moment" of the viveka ( the Vedantic discrimination between Self and non-Self) in which it is mistakenly thought that Pure Consciousness is endowed with a dynamic aspect, waking and dreaming, and with a static, deep sleep, before intuitively discriminating the three states as asat , unreal:

“Ultimately, those erroneously thought states do not exist, and neither does the mind that thought them. The mistake lies in considering the empirical point of view dependent on the individual mind as real and in the inability to place oneself in the metaphysical perspective of Ātman . In other words, we continue to consider Ātman as other than Self ”

etc etc.

Guenonfags I dont feel so good...

>>20806255
>>20806263
>>20806266
link source?

>>20806252
>And I wonder if someone who is aware of advaitin metaphysics could use Sufism as a means towards Moksha
There is no point, its that they end with Advaita that changes the situation totally, in both cases with Sufism and Christianity you are beginning from a place of Avidyā and Saṃsāra, the only reason to still deal with Christianity and Sufism is in a capacity insofar as they conform with advaita, like the meaning of "I AM WHAT I AM" From the bible etc. in continuing with "Sufism" etc. you are simply feeding a sentimental conditioning.

>>20806272
https://www.ekatosedizioni.it/advitiya-caitanyavada/

>>20806272
check out these articles:
https://vedavyasamandala.com/en/testi/tradizione-hindu/vedanta/alcune-precisazioni-sul-metodo-delladvaita/

>>20790054
I fucking hate the Guenon cult, it ruined my reputation. During the history class the teacher mentioned reincarnation in hinduism and I had a sperg out about how reincarnation is a modern theory that doesn't exist in traditional religions and everyone was looking at me like wtf I was talking about.

>>20806291
There are two or three articles on that website about Atlantis where they claim, like Guenon, that Abrahamism has its roots coming from that current, but unlike Guenon they consider the current to be degenerated (from which the flaws of Abrahamism) based on Plato's writings and other greek and egyptian sources. Any thoughts?

>>20805478
imagine living with them, having them cook your food after they wiped their asses of poo with their hands

Let's put in simple words so /lit/tards understand.
Cults are based when my people does it to kill my enemies.
Is that simple.
Leftists are butthurt that rightwingers are becoming more and more organized.
I don't care if is Guenon, or Evola, or Marco Aurelius, or Hitler or whatever.
I want dead bolsheviks, dead freemasons and dead sionists.
Guenon cult is based and beautifull.
Marx/Foucault cult is gay and ugly.

tldr?

>>20806444
Guenon was a freemason

https://vedavyasamandala.com/testi/tradizioni-occidentali/from-cosmos-to-chaos/

>>20806444
>There are two or three articles on that website about Atlantis where they claim, like Guenon, that Abrahamism has its roots coming from that current, but unlike Guenon they consider the current to be degenerated (from which the flaws of Abrahamism) based on Plato's writings and other greek and egyptian sources. Any thoughts?
send me the links to the article and I will read it, I have read one article "Atlantis and Western Civilization" and I agreed with alot of it,
>, but unlike Guenon they consider the current to be degenerated (from which the flaws of Abrahamism) based on Plato's writings and other greek and egyptian sources. Any thoughts?
That abrahamism represents a degenerated current is perfectly consistent with Guenon, did Guenon not consider Hinduism to be the most "Primordial" if that were the case Abrahamism is more degenerated as it is "less primordial" than the non-abrahamic Hinduism respectively.

>>20806522
meant to reply to >>20806303

>>20790054
There are probably like 10 people that just constantly spam this stuff.

>>20806278
>There is no point,
No point if you wanted to reach moksha while still embodied, but according to Shankara these sorts of non-supreme practices whereby one meditates on the saguna Brahman still can grant entry to the Brahmaloka at death, where one then has an extended opportunity to work on reaching moksha before an eventual descent into another body if one never attains it

>>20806292
another one filtered by Le Sphinx

>>20806841
I meant there is no point in two-timing Advaita metaphysics with Christianity/Sufism for example that is already something incoherent in itself, whats the point in that? You would have to start from Advaita, and then read it in everywhere into Sufism/Christianity, in a way which straight denies the gradualized hierachical stations, states, realizations etc. The whole point with things like Advaita and Dzogchen, is you start from the Absolute, you don't go through some gradual progression, or traverse some levels of realization, there is no becoming. etc.

>>20806841
>whereby one meditates on the saguna Brahman
Of course, I never denied this, I just meant circumstantially there is no real point in it, unless you really require the individual crutch, you give into the sentimental conditioning of some religion. With Sufism etc. you'd just be reinforcing the very opposite of Advaita.

>>20806946
>I meant there is no point in two-timing Advaita metaphysics with Christianity/Sufism for example that is already something incoherent in itself, whats the point in that?
Well, I could see it being justified in the sense of a person thinking “I believe Advaita is true but I wont become a monk either because I dont have the right prerequisites like the right caste or dont have a monkish inclination, therefor I will follow this indirect route instead while just viewing the practices as an expedient means to reach Brahmaloka”, perhaps Guenon’s thinking was something like this. You could do the exact same thing with Hindu/Buddhist Tantra and Yoga as well, at least with the types that dont fully agree metaphysically with Advaita but which still have an advanced repertoire of mediative practices.

>>20806841
also guenonfag what do you think about this article
>>20806291
from the article:
>Naiśkarmyasiddhi , III. 64; cf. Bṛhadāraṇyaka Vartikā , I.4.7. Sūreśvara considers four categories of adhikārin : The first is that of one who realizes by direct contact with his own Self, a typical case of Satyayuga, today so exceptional that it is almost never taken into consideration. The second category is represented by those who realize by simple śrāvaṇa . The third category concerns the madhyamādhikārin . To the fourth category belongs the one who, despite following śrāvaṇa, finds it hard to disidentify from his "I". He therefore turns to Brahman as other than Himself, effectively maintaining a dualistic view. This perspective therefore requires a meditative method, called karma yoga in the Gītā , to lead these sādhakas to purify the mind. Once this has been achieved, they will be able to access the sākṣat sādhana in life or the devayana after the fall of the body, with the possible possibility of also obtaining krama mukti at the conclusion of the Kalpa.

>Certain vedāntins have even carelessly spread among the supporters of non-Vedantic schools the belief that among the advaitins there were different opinions on the knowledge of the Absolute or that, in any case, listening ( śravaṇa) was not sufficient for the ultimate realization. Starting from this erroneous point of view, they claim that if listening alone were enough to achieve intuition, then all advaitin would have to be liberated in life ( jīvan mukta ).

so śravaṇa is good enough, or "hearing" teaching, and contemplating them? What do you think?

>>20790507
Islam effectively refuted

>>20806999
>Well, I could see it being justified in the sense of a person thinking “I believe Advaita is true but I wont become a monk either because I dont have the right prerequisites like the right caste or dont have a monkish inclination, therefor I will follow this indirect route instead while just viewing the practices as an expedient means to reach Brahmaloka”,
I agree anything is justified, of course, defilements are very widespread there is nothing wrong with engaging in actions of purification with body, speech and mind.

>>20807008
>so śravaṇa is good enough
Shankara presents the 3-part path of Sravana, Manana and Nididhyasana in his works as being important, although it’s also heavily implied (from what I remember) that someone with an already sufficiently pure heart, powerful intelligence and controlled mind etc could basically span all 3 steps in one instant if they are lucky enough to have full realization while being instructed.

>>20807091

>Shankara presents the 3-part path of Sravana, Manana and Nididhyasana in his works as being important, although it’s also heavily implied (from what I remember) that someone with an already sufficiently pure heart, powerful intelligence and controlled mind etc could basically span all 3 steps in one instant if they are lucky enough to have full realization while being instructed.
Does Shankara posit any necessary qualifications of the instructor? What does say the instructor has to be like? Could you get an AI well versed in Upadesasahasri, etc. to lead you to full realization? kek

>>20807091
Does shankara also comment on the Yugas? How does the current degeneration affect things, as it said
>>20807008
Realization is subject to the Yugas, etc. Some case is more or less likely.

>>20807115
>Does Shankara posit any necessary qualifications of the instructor?
I think just that he should be someone who has been initiated into sannyasin in the traditional manner and who is already realized
>Could you get an AI well versed in Upadesasahasri, etc. to lead you to full realization? kek
It depends on whether you consider a fully realized teacher to be absolutely necessary for enlightenment or not; Shankara seems to mostly say it is but he sometimes admits exceptions to general rules too; like for example he says even though you are supposed to enter into monkhood *before* awakening he admits that it could happen spontaneously to a non-monastic ritualist/scholar etc who then remains in that capacity for a limited duration before entering into monkhood; this is how Shankara accounts for the fact that Yajnavalkya in the BU appears already enlightened despite being married and then in the end of that Upanishad Yajnavalkya abandons his wives and enters in monasticism

>>20807132
>Does shankara also comment on the Yugas?
He doesn't mention the Kali Yuga and associated degeneration anywhere in his commentaries to my knowledge although I think he does use "modern" or "moderns" as a pejorative when referring to certain peoples ideas and he also cites from many places in the Mahabharata (including portions aside from the B-G) and the Vishnu Purana; which are texts that both talk about the Yugas etc so he was certainly aware of it

>>20807205
>It depends on whether you consider a fully realized teacher to be absolutely necessary for enlightenment or not; Shankara seems to mostly say it is but he sometimes admits exceptions to general rules too; like for example he says even though you are supposed to enter into monkhood *before* awakening he admits that it could happen spontaneously to a non-monastic ritualist/scholar etc who then remains in that capacity for a limited duration before entering into monkhood; this is how Shankara accounts for the fact that Yajnavalkya in the BU appears already enlightened despite being married and then in the end of that Upanishad Yajnavalkya abandons his wives and enters in monasticism
these are interesting questions - a quote from the introduction of a text I was reading ( english translation of Siddhantabindu of Madhusudana Sarasvati)

"By whichever method a person attains knoweldge of the innerself, that method should be considered the good method and it is not confined to any one method only"
- Sri Sureshvacharya

Also have you read any of the 4 "siddhi" texts: Brahmasiddhi of Maṇḍana Miśra, the Naiśkarmyasiddhi of Sureśvara, the Iṣṭasiddhi of Vimuktātman, and the Advaitasiddhi of Madhusūdana Sarasvatī? These are apparently important texts of the tradition,
since you have read for a while, do you know of any catalogs indexing all translations (preferably english) of advaita literature? I have found many thousand page books on archive.org for example, with heaps of commentaries etc. but its all in Sanskrit... seems like there is heaps of literature being missed out on with no working Sanskrit,

>although I think he does use "modern" or "moderns" as a pejorative when referring to certain peoples ideas
kek just like Guenon?
> he also cites from many places in the Mahabharata (including portions aside from the B-G) and the Vishnu Purana; which are texts that both talk about the Yugas etc so he was certainly aware of it
I will look into it, also what are your thoughts on "The Sweets of Refutation" by Śrīharṣa?

This article is a total destruction of guenonfags.
https://scienzasacra.blogspot.com/2020/09/gian-giuseppe-filippi-proposito-di.html

>>20807475
>We come to Ventura's argument: " He who knows himself (nafsahu) knows his Lord ". To which he cleverly adds that " nafs actually means soul (the root refers to the sense of" breathing "), but at the same time it is a term used to designate the reflexive pronoun (" self "): we therefore have something exactly equivalent to the Sanskrit Ātmā, which indeed serves to indicate the Self, but which etymologically derives from the root an, "to breathe", just like the Arabic nafs "(pp. 65.66). Very academic: in fact that Ātman is derived from a root an which means to breathe is an invention of the Indo-Europeanists, to forcefully relate the Sanskrit term to the Greek ἀτμος. In fact, no Sanskrit text can be found that Ātman is related to the breath. The root of Ātman , in fact, is ād-ad and at which mean to pervade, include and exist. With this it is proved that nafs and Ātman are not equivalent. We must recognize, however, that in some cases the use of the reflexive nafs somewhat resembles that of Ātman . As in the example produced " He who knows himself (nafsahu) knows the Lord of him ". However, there is something wrong with the advitīya reading of this remarkable Arab sentence. We do not take into account the "who", that is, the subject who should know his own nafs as an objectto know one's Lord as an object ( Rabb ). Neither Ātman nor Brahman can be an object of knowledge. To be purely metaphysical, the Arabic sentence should sound: "my Self ( nafs ) is the Lord". Therefore also in this case by nafs is meant the individual soul.

>We have recognized that the Arabic sentence, although forced by Ventura to transform it into a mahāvākya , is nevertheless remarkable because it represents one of the highest degrees of aparabrahma vidyā . Similar passages and even more open to metaphysics are found in Ibn 'Arabī's Kitâb al-yâ' wa Huwa kitâb al-Huwa . But this slightly displaces the basic question. Already in the past we had been notified of a passage from Nāblusī which stated that Allah, " glorified and exalted, one and only existing, endowed with an eternal and exclusively His being (wujūd), and not you, who are not at all existent and that then (ie before this unveiling) you were pure nothing. " This passage also reflects a particularly high metaphysics of the non-Supreme; but the point of pure metaphysics is that "I am the Existent" and not a pure nothing. Pure nothingness is simply an impossibility. Instead "I" ( jivātman ) am actually Brahman. In fact, then, the passage of Nāblusī ends with a path that goes from 'ilmul yaqīn,' aynul yaqīn to haqqul yaqīn , the three stages of certainty: theoretical knowledge, virtual knowledge, realized knowledge. For the Vedānta there are no degrees, stops or stages of knowledge: everything that is not jñāna is only ignorance.

>>20807276
> Also have you read any of the 4 "siddhi" texts:
Not yet but I want to. Only the ones by Suresvara and Madhusudana are fully translated into English AFAIK. The former is easy to find and the latter is hard to find. I ordered Advaitasiddhi on amazon but it never arrived and now Im struggling to find another complete translation to buy that doesnt require me to use foreign currency on some .in website.

I would like to learn Sanskrit eventually but it may have to wait until my 30’s or 40’s since I have a super busy life rn and other hobbies outside of work already such as im an artist trying to build his portfolio of works.

These website have some works, but not all are Vedanta
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/texts/index.html
https://sfvedanta.org/genre/vedantic-scriptures/
Vedanta.com

> I will look into it, also what are your thoughts on "The Sweets of Refutation" by Śrīharṣa?
I have not read it yet but will eventually. I have only read other peoples opinion on it and dont have much of my thoughts atm. Seems to be mainly a refutation of rationalism/positivism/realism/etc. Some people think he accords logic slightly less validity/importance than Shankara in terms of what what role it plays in guiding us to the truth.

>>20807587
>and, in the end, the last resort is always and only a few quotations from Guénon repeated with dogmatic faith.