/lit/ - Literature

>>20768436
There is only one name that saves. It's Jesus, not Luther. There is only one Church that saves, and it's the Church that Jesus founded, against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail. If you believe God, you accept His Church.

>>20768455
I believe in Jesus of course. Now, what exactly is "His church?" Some would say the Catholic church is THE church. Which I disagree with of course.

>>20768464
And you would be obviously wrong. To suggest any alternative would suggest that somehow Christ's Church has failed, which would make Christ a liar.

The Roman Catholic Church admits that the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals were forgeries and that ultimately the office of the Papacy was unjustified. The innovations made to the Trinity doctrine with the filioque clause were also then unjustified. That was 1 of the 3 major causes of the schism, and the other 2 are positions the church no longer holds. So what you see is a Church that’s constantly reforming its doctrine and theology to suit its desires, and a papal office which has no particular historical justification and which has shown through history to be almost singularly concerned with power over religion. And the contemporary Catholic Church has done such a 180 on its doctrine and opened it up to ecumenism to such an insane degree, that what the church endorsed in the Middle Ages and what it endorses today are almost completely polar opposites. If the religion is just submission to this one guy, while he makes up the theology as he goes, why be part of it? That’s not an endorsement of any sort of Protestantism except the “Protest” part. I wouldn’t be a Protestant myself, but to be honest I see even less of a reason to be a Catholic. At least Protestants believe in an eternal and immutable testament via scripture and faith that in theory should never change. So what advantage would a Catholic have over a Protestant? You can claim the rites are valid? Are they? Is that even true? Who knows. No one can say for sure. All you can do is submit to the pope while he endorses clown masses. It’s a joke.

>>20768436
Catholicism is the Faith as understood by the Church Fathers and the Apostles before them. It's how the Faith was practiced for over a thousand years until the Protestant revolt threw a spanner in the gears.

>>20768455
Thread over, pack it up lads.

>>20768503
No one knows anything that he has not either learned for himself or been taught. To know of Christ, someone must have taught us. It's a simple question of trust--of faith. Do you believe God can preserve His doctrine or not?

>>20768510
That’s a blatant lie though. The authority of the Bishop of Rome is ahistorical and the Roman Catholic Church breaks with prior ecumenical councils in several key ways. The church itself admits the decretals which expanded the legal authority of the pope were forgeries and that the filioque clause was an innovation. It is not even really debatable that the Roman Catholic Church is a break from the Church of the first millennium.

>>20768528
Of course, but that doesn’t imply submission to the absolute authority of a man who’s legal authority is predicated on forgeries. That is a subversion of Christ if anything, the worship of the power of a man over Christ himself.

>>20768529
>The Church itself admits
Source?

>>20768534
The gospels are not forgeries.

>>20768570
The gospels don’t ascribe infallibility to the people or even the office of the Pope.

>>20768577
Infallibility to the pope*

>>20768577
>You are Rock
>You shall have the keys of the kingdom of heaven
>On this Rock I will build my church
>The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it
The primacy of Peter is undeniable. However unclear the papacy may seem to you from scripture, all attempts at historical revisionism outrageously foreign to scripture. From where is autocephalousness drawn? From where quakerism? From where Anglicanism. The papacy is a hard teaching, but anything else is simply preposterous.

>>20768577
>Sola scriptura fags are literally unironically retarded
Quel surprise

>>20768436
i wanted this, but now i have bad intentions

This is the board for literature not religion

>>20768490
Okay so in your mind unless you're Catholic you're going to hell or aren't part of a real church?
>>20768503
Interesting info and take. Yeah I don't quite follow the whole let's all blindlessly follow this human bean instead of just Christ.

>>20768636
If you knowingly reject Christ's Church, you knowingly reject Christ.

>>20768633
Christ blessed us with free will and cogence unlike the niggers.

>>20768652
I've never met a Catholic in my entire life who said Catholicism or hell, pretty retarded desu. Catholics worship the very same Jesus and God. They just pray to the dead Saints and do other things not found in the Bible.

>>20768436
Do what you feel like. Change to whichever denomination you like and where you can fulfill your faith. Critical arguments could never convince you because if they did you would be an atheist

>>20768599
You are jumping from mere primacy to infallibility with absolute and total authority, which is not in the scripture anywhere just as a matter of fact.

>>20768636
Exactly. If you really dig into history of the church before and after the schism, you start to realize that the Pope was granted a degree of authority which was not seen prior, and they then want on to use that authority expand their own power and to make innovations in the theology and church doctrine, and it’s still doing it today but if were the Church of the first thousand years, shouldn’t it be the same as it was then? Yet, it’s not. How can total submission to this one guy almost as if he were divine himself be Biblical? It doesn’t make any sense.

>>20768652
the church is a people
not an institution

>>20768652
This is not Catholic dogma anymore.
> To clarify the Church’s teaching, the Holy Office, with the approval of Pope Pius XII, sent a letter to the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing, on 8 August 1949. It stated, among other things, that in order for someone to be saved, “it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God”.

Nostra Aetate seems to go even further and suggest there is little difference whether one is a Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist.

>>20768669
*tips*
>>20768683
BUT BRO MY PRIEST AND THE BISHOPS AND THIS GUY ALL SAID-
>>20768699
Not sure if more funny ir more sad how corrupt they've become

>>20768436
I’d rather convert you to permaculture farming

>>20768455
The Catholics created an Earthly king (the Pope) because they lack faith in the Heavenly king (Jesus).

>>20768455
What about Sedes? What about FSSPX?
Are they part of that Church?

>>20768436
It's pretty much agreed by scholars including Protestants now that Paul never taught sola fide and indeed counted good works as part of meriting salvation.

Of course Catholicism has a ton of other historical problems with its own doctrines but Luther was just wrong on salvation.

>>20769040
Disagree.

Romans 5:18-19
1 Corinthians 15:22
2 Corinthians 5:14
Romans 11:32
1 Timothy 2:3-6
Titus 2:11
2 Corinthians 5:19
Ephesians 1:9-10
Colossians 1:27-28
John 12:32
Hebrews 2:9
John 17:2
John 4:42
John 12:47
1 John 4:14
2 Peter 3:9
Matthew 18:14
Philippians 2:9-11
Colossians 1:19-20
1 John 2:2
John 3:17
Luke 16:16
1 Timothy 4:10

>>20768436

Sola Scriptura leaves you wide open to anyone coming along with retarded or self-interested interpretations of the Bible.Having a centralised institution like the Catholic Church, and the writings of the Church Fathers, means that it's far more difficult for the faith to be distorted.

>>20768436
Matthew 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Nothing gets more clear than this. From here, historically you can look at the unbroken line of succession of Popes up to the current flawed man on the throne of St. Peter. The Pope is not a replacement for Jesus, but an ambassador, and often, like the current one, I flawed one for he is just a man. Not every word from a Pope's mouth is to be considered canon or the word of God, but only when he speaks "from the chair of Peter" with purpose, does he declare any sort of dogma.

>>20769257
Papist cope incoming

>>20768699
A letter cannot replace dogma. This is part of an understanding of the infinite mercy of God. Christ's one true Church is "the way we know" and it's possible that there are ways that we don't know, but it's always safer to travel the path Jesus left for us.

Are episcopals alright? And Lutherans?

>>20768436
The Church which Peter had founded, and which his successors have guided it in the Christ's stead, is the only true one.
And regarding Lutheranism, one of the fundamental flaws it still promulgates is 'Sola Scriptura'; abandoning the oral teachings which the Catholic Church still holds dear; the Catechism.

>>20768664
Jesus Christ Himself says to the Apostles: "Whoever rejects you, rejects me."

>>20768455
>If you believe God, you accept His Church
and his church is your church of course

>>20768436
How come even though the comic just shows a completely normal marriage, there is something profoundly delusional and creepy about the image? maybe its the poorly edited cobbled together patchwork of stale memes? the insistence on making the dogs and children like these creepy half-chad abominations? the drawing of the pregnant body looking vaguely like some weird fetish thing?

>>20768436
Yes Man memes are the cringest things on the planet.

>>20768490
Literally the minute after Jesus gave Peter the mission to build His Church, Peter failed him (which was one of many times in the Gospel.) The Church was imperfect from the start. We're all human and make mistakes. I just wish for a Catholic church without pedophilia, hatred, and corruption. Is that too much to ask? Not OP btw.

>>20768682
It's right there in the passage I referenced. Christ gives Peter the keys of the kingdom. Christ is King and Peter is the Prime Minister. He has been given all the authority of Christ to act as Christ on earth. It is a divinely appointed office. If somehow the office has failed, that is to say the Church has failed, for if the head has failed, so too has the body. Therefore, by Christ's promise of an inerrant Church, we can have perfect confidence that the Pope can never err in the official use of his office. As a man he might fail. In his public statements he might err. But whenever he makes a formal act as Pope, whenever he makes use of those powers given him by Christ, we can be sure, by virtue of Christ's promise, that he will not err.

>>20770885
>Is that too much to ask?
Sadly, as long as Jesus' earthly church is run by humans it will have Judas'. We can only be comforted by the fact that Jesus tells us that one of the worst things you can do is to harm one of his little ones and that in the end, all sinners will be punished to the level of crimes they have committed.

Take comfort also in the fact the the Catholic Church has been doing something about it (at least in the US) with a "Protecting God's Children" program to pre-screen people interacting with children and it seems to be helping. Children are far more likely to be abused by a family member, school teacher, or slightly more by a protestant preacher, but none of this is reported on. I also understand that the systematic hiding of the abuse was a major factor in the problem. May those who are guilty and unrepentant for these sins upon death burn eternally.

>>20770572
Protesting is not necessarily rejecting, but rectifying. Catholics rectified quite a lot since 1500 which is good, but there are a lot of things worth protesting.

>>20770904
>May those who are guilty and unrepentant for these sins upon death burn eternally.
He without sin cast the first stone.

>>20768699
What I have said and what you have shared are the same thing. It is two expressions of the same principle. If someone is separated from the visible body of the Church, but is united in spirit, then they belong to the Church and are a part of it. However, if it possible for someone to unite bodily to the Church and they refuse to do so, clearly they do not have the spiritual longing and desire that is necessary. If someone knowingly rejects the Church, they have knowingly rejected Christ.

>>20770909
That's fair, but breaking apart Jesus' church weakens the bonds we have to fight against evil. There's also doctrinal issues while protestants reject that Jesus directly instituted like the physical presence of himself in the Eucharist which caused some people to not accept his teaching and leave.

>>20770917
You're mostly right, but I specified this to only those who are unrepentant. The unrepentant will be punished, and I am not throwing stones. I hope that they "go and sin no more" as Jesus tells the woman in the passage you're referring to.

>>20770919
I agree with what you just said here

>>20768946
Sedes are heretics, because they have a false belief of the indefectibility of the Church. The society is a more complicated matter. Certainly some among the society are materially schismatic. When they reach the point of formal schism, however, they tend to leave the society and either become sedevacantists or join something like the Society of St. Pius V.

>>20770885
Peter failed him, and yet God never took the keys away from Him. The Church didn't fail, but Peter, as a man, failed. This demonstrates the Papacy very well. The Office cannot fail, because it belongs to the mystical body of Christ, and the mystical body of Christ cannot fial. But the man who holds the office, even Peter, can fail, and this does not violate the Church nor cause Christ's promise to fail

Sneed's Feed & Seed (formerly Chuck's). Also, "Bart's Fart & Shart" doesn't make any sense because the store wasn't called "Feed & Sheed" under Sneed's ownership so stop posting it.

Lutherans should be put onto rosses lining the entire roads of the countries. Protestants are dogs, sons of the Devil himself. materialsit scum that have broughtu ntold misery to the planet. the disaster of Europe today is at the hands of Protestants. divroce, materialism, destruction of family, unlimited state power, muh rights, muh body muh choice, hostile attacks, annihilation of cultural values and destruction of identity. all Protestant shit.
burn down all protestant churches, and lynch protestants. they must be destroyed.

>>20770928
>physical presence of himself in the Eucharist
this is so weird to me desu. what do I gain from eating His body literally instead of symbolically? isn't it all about spirit and faith. Still ate the bread and drank the wine in a Catholic church once although I'm baptized by a protty.

>>20770909
Protesting is rejecting the bonds of authority. But it is precisely the authority (which is God's) that cannot be rejected. The man who weilds the authority could be an evil man, and he might use his privelages to do evil, but the authority given to him was given by God. When you reject the authority itself, you reject not the man but God.

>>20770928
It's the same as I said before. Dogma doesn't change.

>>20770943
You committed grave sacrelige. Paul himself teaches in scripture that whoever eats the eucharist undiscerning the Body of Christ eats judgment.

>>20770600
There is no other Church.

>>20769274
No, it is not possible that there are ways we don't know. There is one way--Christ. Therefore, whatsoever Christ says is necessary is necessary. No man is saved except by Christ and His Church. There is only one way. Some might travel this way under the cover of night. They might travel this road in a way hidden to sight, but it is the only road.

>>20770869
Leftists are such braindead degenerates that even pregnancy feels like a fetish to them

>>20770943
Re-read the entirety of John Chapter 6 and when you get to the point at the end where a listener says "Then many of his disciples who were listening said, This saying is hard; who can accept it?" understand that if Jesus was only talking in metaphor, what would be so difficult to accept? Metaphorically eating Jesus' body and literally eating bread is easy, but the reality is that people STOPPED following Jesus over this.

>>20770952
This anon is right, but if you did it in ignorance, you are less guilty (but still guilty to a lesser degree). You should do your best to reunite with the Church and eventually come to confess this.

>>20770962
The Catholic Church teaches what I said before, particularly about when it comes to those who Christians have failed to reach. The Bible says that those who aren't under the law or Christians will be judged by what they do know by what God has put in their hearts (the conscience that God puts in everyone to allow everyone some degree of knowing right from wrong). Now this could be separate from being saved, but it's in the Bible nonetheless.

>>20770952
I had no evil thoughts in mind. I'm still learning what it means to follow Christ. Just finished Acts and started Romans. Apparently foreskins were a much bigger deal than expected in the early days of Christianity.

ITT larp that makes discord blush

>>20770972
i didnt say that you retard

>>20770973
You are the Body of Christ not knowing it was the Body of Christ. You came before God not believing Him to be God. You have said before all the angels and saints that you belong to Christ's Body while not believing in His body. As Paul says, whoever eats and drinks not discerning the Body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. To follow Christ means to obey Christ. To follow Christ means to believe Christ. He has said that the eucharist is His Body. If you wish to follow Christ, believe Him and know that you have taken his body wrongly. God will forgive you. He died so that you may be forgiven. But it is His very sacrifice which you treat callously. Rather than seek an excuse, seek forgiveness.

>>20770971
But if someone has encountered God's Church, has read the relevant passages of scripture, knows what is true and then rejects the Church, there can be no claim of ignorance. Look at Romans. Paul does not excuse the polytheism of the pagans. The possibility of just men who do not belong visibly to the Church should not distract us from the reality that such men are so rare as to practically not exist. After all, if such a person lived a just life and implicitly desired to belong to God's Church, then as soon as they discovered that Church, they would join it. At this point in history, where has God's Church not reached?

>>20770993
I'm on my way. Be patient. May God be with the slow like me.

>>20768455
>the Church that Jesus founded
Jesus founded no church and advised strict adherence to Hebrew Laws and Worship of the Hebrew God.

>>20768436
>Convince me to convert to Catholicism from Lutheranism
1) you're a heretical Catholic already, with a mental block towards the one and onlyImperial Roman Church with the Emperor as its head and the Pentarchy as his advisors,
2) you notice the plebeians can't manage their own affairs or not commit wicked acts; in this case you notice that the Church has begun to take money in exchange for permitting or absolving acts of vice and villainy

3.1) you speak out against this (you're accused of being a Lutheran or chased to Lutheran lands and become a Lutheran)
3.2) you shrug about this and make excuses (you're a Catholic)

>>20771012
>But if someone has encountered God's Church, has read the relevant passages of scripture, knows what is true and then rejects the Church, there can be no claim of ignorance.
You're right here, but that's not what I said. He just admitted here >>20770973 that it was done in ignorance and has only recently read the relevant passages. He still has forgiveness to obtain, but he had the claim of ignorance at the time of sin.

Romans 2:12-16 is what I was referring to the law being written on peoples' hearts.

The rest of what you said is correct though.

>>20771027
Peace be with you, friend. God and Jesus are patient and merciful. We will all welcome you to the body of Christ when the Spirit moves you to and you choose to accept the promptings of the Spirit which it appears you are doing. Don't let the ramblings of us humans be a road block in your journey

>>20771031
You blaspheme scripture.

>>20771012
>After all, if such a person lived a just life and implicitly desired to belong to God's Church, then as soon as they discovered that Church, they would join it.
Unless they recognized that the Church-members were the most viceful persons around and that their dogmas either made no sense (Judaism for Gentiles) or were preached in the first place by evil persons who had no right to speak (i..e Paul).

>>20771041
You blaspheme the authors of that scripture and the Man who declared it "tolerable" and "you don't need to kill these Christians anymore"

>>20771027
I do not mean to discourage you. I only wish to impart on you the gravity of Eucharistic discipline. Ignorance is a mitigating circumstance for guilt, but it does not change the objective nature of the act. God desires nothing more than to be merciful towards you. The more we recognize our nothingness in comparison with Him, the more we recognize our weakness and fault towards Him, the more we can receive His mercy, the more He is glorified, and the more our love for Him will abound. He who is forgiven much, loves much.

>>20771042
>>20771045
Trust God, not yourself.

>>20768436
If I was Christian, I'd definitely be a protestant. Any kind of human religious authority (like the pope) makes no sense to me. People are corrupt, weak, they make mistakes. You should follow your holy book, nothing else.

>>20771066
God would consider a evil person who masks their actions "in his name" or who invent a religion and claim "his authority" to be the human beings around most worthy of a slow and painful death, I think.

Notice also that Jesus opposed 'organized religion' and was killed by 'priests'. It's extremely doubtful that he would look at a church literally taking money for vices and sheltering sexual abusers and consider it not be in fact far far more evil than the Pharisees of his own day.

>>20768455
Cool larp

>>20771089
I think it's all batshit myself but.. considering christianity as it was supposed to be as a civil service wing of the roman empire i'd go for imperil orthodoxy first, and if the empire dind't exist, then whatsoever ever other monarch had figured out that the king or queen was the rightful head of their local church. Probably C of E in that case.

Praise Henry Tudor.

>>20770902
So you really believe that scripture tells you Christ gave Peter the keys and that means you have to totally submit to the Pope and recognize is total infallibility? You really got there from the scripture?

>>20770919
1. That’s not what you said
2. He’s talking about unrepentant non-Catholics
3. Nostra Aetate seems to suggest tolerance even for Hindus that kidnap children and sacrifice them to demonic gods, regardless of whether they have any relationship to the church at all

>>20771091
Jesus literally said to His Apostles "Whoever rejects you, rejects me." He literally tells them that whatsoever they bind on earth is bound in heaven. After Judas kills himself, the whole Church gathers together and Peter leads them in appointing Matthias as his successor to his Apostleship. Not much later, the church and Apostles gather together, and again it is Peter who declares that new converts need not be circumcised and that it is lawful for all Christians to eat any kind of food. Christ himself says that whosever does not gather with Him, scatters. You reject the successors of the Apostles. You do not gather, but scatter.

>>20771130
What a thing seems to suggest and what it actually says are often different. If someone know of the Church, knows the teaching of the Church, and still rejects the Church, how can anyone say that such a person is sorry for it? Rather, by their actions they show that they clearly are unrepentant. A repentant man makes acts of repentance.

>>20771120
That's what all Christians believed for 1600 years, except there is no "total infallibility". The Church has never taught that. If you espousing that, you were misled or lied to by a protestant or are a demon yourself trying to sow discord here

>>20771130
I would never suggest 3 however because it's so far against God's law and what God has set in man's heart that there can be no excuse here. G K Chesterton relates these evil cults as doing something evil because they know it is primal and evil, not because of ignorance. They have strayed so far from God's truth that they are actively looking for the darkness that lies away from God that they are willing to serve demons.

>>20771164
That repentant act is either Baptism or Confession if you've already been baptized. No one can know their heart except God himself, and sometimes the person themselves (although one can lie to oneself).

>>20771154
>Jesus literally said to His Apostles "Whoever rejects you, rejects me."
He said to his *Disciples. He never met Paul who was a torturer employed by the Jewish State to hunt and imprison Jesus's friends.

>>20771154
Also, I mean, any of this is only important if you're a Jew in the first place. Jesus doesn't need to convince me not to mutilate my sons foreskin, for example, and my culture isn't twisted from having a notion of God declaring Humans to be born in sin for having wanted to tell right from wrong.

>>20771164
The argument is that the Pope and his Roman Catholic Church is indeed not the Church. Nowhere in scripture will you find papal infallibility. Nowhere.

>>20771205
That is a complete bullshit lie. Infallibility wasn’t even described dogmatically until Vatican I. It certainly wasn’t believed in the first millennium of the Church. At the most, Catholics can complain it was mostly believed but not dogmatic from
The Middle Ages, but that’s it and even that is dubious. This is a flat out lie.

You don’t have to suggest 3 because the Vatican does and you have to submit to the Pope. What you personally would suggest doesn’t matter at all.

How can anyone be a Catholic if it’s widely acknowledged that the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals that expanded the authority of the Pope were forgeries? At the very least it’s a plain as day acknowledgement that regardless of what came to be accepted by the Middle Ages, the first millennium of the Church did not accept the authority of the Pope and certainly not his infallibility. There is no way around this.

>>20768436
All semitic religions worship evil
Instead of praying to a jewish desert devil, look at the sun

>>20771271
sounds painful

>>20771257
And how do you possibly justify this Pope’s war on tradition? Let’s say you do want to just practice the same Catholicism that was practiced in the Middle Ages. In most cases, you can’t! Now you are expected to make apology for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, to go to Novus Ordo clown and puppet masses, to apologize for the crimes or white Catholics, to accept that all of these things that were said by former Popes and the beliefs of the Medieval Church are now wrong. It’s all just so ridiculous. For what? How is this not just humanist man worship?

>>20771205
Precisely. So if someone, knowing what Baptism is or knowing what confession is, refuses to be baptized or refuses to confess, how can we call that repentance? Surely God knows their heart, but it would be scandalous to others if we treated acts of impenitence as repentance. If we treated someone who refused to participate in the life of Grace as though they were already saved, it would seem to suggest that baptism and confession or of no value. God knows hearts, we do not. Therefore, we must act according to what is publicly seen and known, and leave to God the final judgment of the heart.

>>20771091
>to be the human beings around most worthy of a slow and painful death, I think.
God might be more merciful and less petty and transactional than you. It might be that nobody deserves a painful death, just as nobody deserves God's grace and yet He grants it. You're just telling us the awful things you might do if granted supernatural powers and that is probably not a good way to find God's Grace within you.

>>20771230
And yet the Apostles all accepted Paul. If you reject Paul, you say that the Apostles we're wrong about him. But that would be to say that Christ's Church failed even in the time of the Apostles. This makes Christ a liar. It's blasphemous.

>>20771311
God is Goodness. If one rejects God, one rejects Goodness. If God withdraws from a man, all goodness is withdrawn from the man also.

God is Being itself. Whatever is, only is by participation in God.

God does not change. God does not undo what He has done.

God has given us being. Therefore, we will have being for the whole term which God has appointed. God has created Man to exist forever. Therefore, God will never take existence away from us.

But again, God is Goodness. If we reject God, He will not take away our existence, but we will have rejected all that is good. Therefore, if we have rejected God we will continue to exist forever without anything that is good. Such an existence can only be suffering.

>>20771314
>And yet the Apostles all accepted Paul.
Yes, they 'forgave' him. But you know I don't think any of them would have done so if they knew that 800 ys later that Pauls opinions on things (where he contradicts Jesus over 140 times) would be violently enforced and called Christianity.

Consider the recognition of Marcion having done this thing, in effect having written the Bible and declared Paul to be the only person who had "understood" Jesus, being declared as the Heresy of Marcion by the Imperial Church of Constantine.

>But that would be to say that Christ's Church failed even in the time of the Apostles. This makes Christ a liar. It's blasphemous.
Not at all, it comprehends Paul as an example of an evil person who was insane from guitl and who is an example of how even persons such as this 'can' be forgiven, whereas the error (shown via Marcionism as a Heresy) is to elevate Paul above Jesus and to make Paul into an authority.

>>20771311
Not really, I'mjust considering what would be considered to be the greatest form of blasphemy; surely to pretend to speak on behalf of the Creator God and make up inhumane laws in "his name" would be the worst possible of offenses due to the gullibility of mere mortals and their desire to act to please god.

This could even be evidenced in the origin of "original sin;" where the humans desire to know right and wrong but think that eating a piece of fruit will grant them the knowledge, and not worldly experience.

>>20771314
>Apostles
Not sure why you're still referring to the Disciples as 'the Apostles'. Paul is only called an Apostle because he never met Jesus and did not study under him to be able to be called a Disciple.

>>20771314
>>20771311
Also, also.. it could be said the only good person in the story of Paul was the Emperor Nero who killed Paul for what he had learned Paul had been doing. Whilst Jesus, in effect, had been enforcing Neros earlier edict on banning the exchange of money in Temples.

it's kind of a rabbit hole on this point tho

>>20771311
Also x4
> surely to pretend to speak on behalf of the Creator God and make up inhumane laws in "his name" would be the worst possible of offenses
This is logically the definition of 'blaspheme' and 'taking gods name in vain' 'false oaths',etc. it's pretending to be pious, whilst being viceful and depraved, and claiming to have authority on behalf of the god.

>>20771347
Do you really think the other Apostles were ignorant of Paul's writing? He was at the First Council of Jerusalem, and the whole Church agreed with his opinion regarding the end of the dietary laws. Peter also calls himself an Apostle.