/lit/ - Literature

>>20760602
all the arguments you know are either fallacious or strawmen. Look deeper into Christianity and the Bible.
do it with an open mind; if you go in extremely biased it's basically putting blinds around your eyes and not seeing anything besides what you want to (in this case, nothing).

picrel is a good book.
try the /Christian/ chart in the wiki link in the sticky. has a great bunch of theology and such. i'll post it in a minute

>>20760602
It's hard to get out of the infantile headspace of materialism. Even from a scientific point of view, it is utter bunk, but science is actually a rather crude way of gathering knowledge anyway; you shouldn't need it to realize there's more to the world than what the untrained eye can detect.

I had to read authors like Forte, Vallee, and Keel to realize the world was much stranger than what the so-called "scientific" minds of our age try to tell us about it, then I moved through a lot of the occultism and eastern religious ideas that /x/ espouses, but in the end reading Meditations on the Tarot and the Bible brought be back around to the Traditional Western way of thinking, and it is quite a relief. You can try G.K. Chesterton if you want, but his stuff didn't really convince me when I wasn't Roman-Catholic, even if I think it is excellent now.

>>20760602
>it seems impossible to believe in anything
You don’t know what belief is? That’s not atheism btw.
>life feels pointless
You miss that old vague “gods plan” shit that much? Life has millions of meanings to choose from. You believe in yourself.
>wants to go Catholic
This is yet another dishonest Catholic poster

>>20760626
here.
to help unbiasing yourself, look into prophecy.
here's a fun one: check the meaning of the names in the Genesis 5 genealogy.

for a strong one, check Daniel 9.
predicts the arrival of the Messiah 500 years before it happens. you may ask "but they could have also just written that to fit!" and here's the kicker: it also predicts the fall of the Temple afterwards (which Christ also prophesized) and Israel's domination.
they could not have written up actually historical events.

>>20760667
>to help unbiasing yourself, look into prophecy.
LOL

>>20760602
So you think its a choice between atheism and joining a religious cult? Why don't you start using your brain and figure things out for yourself?

>>20760691
"Figuring things our for yourself" just means adopting hippie new age beliefs; another worthless cult. Non-religious people with no connection to an ancient, venerable tradition aren't to be taken seriously.

>>20760691
i want community and Catholicism offers that

>>20760602
Why would you pick monotheism? That's an even more narrowing experience than atheism. Just become a polytheist instead. You get to explore all these rich ancient religions, from Rome to Greece to Egypt to Persia to Sumeria etc.

>>20760602
You don't have to believe it, just larp

>>20760626
This is probably a good place to ask, what actually is Christianity, in it's most basic, idiot proof form? What am I supposed to be believing in?

>>20760602
Check this book out. It's written for a general audience, so it's accessible, but you'll get more than a simple glance of the various cultural elements that built Christianity into the institution we see today. Eveything is presented in it's historical context (e.g. including the rationale for injecting the idea of virgin birth into Christ's story); it should help you understand that the church is well aware of criticisims but still maintains the faith.

>>20760602
You’re lonely and depressed because you’re not conquering anything like a real man should. A book won’t fix that. You just want free gibs in heaven, don’t lie. Make your own success, be a man. Go do some pushups

>>20760602
Deluding yourself into believing in fictional non-entities won't cure your depression or loneliness.

Being around people instead of emotionally shutting yourself will help with loneliness. And the thousand ways to tackle depression have been done to death by now.

Or you'll end up depressed, lonely AND a retard. Like >>20760647 here

>>20761392
You sound like a very happy dude, I'm sure you're qualified to give advice on happiness.

>>20761392
>Being around people
Yeah Christianity is wrong but pop psychology is right. You forgot to also recommend some SSRIs to boost those happiness levels

>>20761396
On the contrary, as someone who is not happy I am well qualified to give advice on what doesn't work.

But if lying to yourself makes you happy then good for you.

>>20761404
And herein comes the paradox of Christians on SSRIs

>>20761407
>On the contrary, as someone who is not happy I am well qualified to give advice on what doesn't work.
Are you telling me you're a Christian?

>>20761412
I thought atheists believed in statistics?

>>20761412

>>20761392
I would say one of the more valuable elements of Christianity as a cultural thing is it puts you in contact with people. What else are you supposed to do in the modern world? Go outside, and try to talk to your neighbours who don't want to know you?

>>20761486
>Atheism is same as left wing

Lol

>>20761522
Christianity cannot solve the problems of modern world because its incompatible with its framework.

I could agree that christianity has a social element to it. Though the question is whether that is a property of christianity or just emblemic of the time when it reigned supreme.

Considering how instead of christianity curing modern woes of isolation, it is modern lifestyle that is killing practice of christianity we can assume the latter to be the case

>>20761362
I think, and this is a question that will get very subjective answers, that christianity is the rectification of the smaller monotheistic jewish beliefs that precluded it, brought to a much wider audience by basically changing its scope, while preserving some of the most important ideas: sin is an irreparable part of the human experience, but God constantly works to help us overcome our limitations by giving us a place to lie down in his comfort, and will do anything to help us overcome our limitations through his mercy and love. He cares for all of us. Christianity makes this idea a lot more clear, and puts it in the center, specifically through God’s sacrifice in coming to earth as Christ. It’s a beautiful religion. It’s given me something to lean on when I needed to most. Hopefully this helps.

If you're a real atheist you can never become a Catholic again. The concept of talking donkeys and dragons are just too much to larp yourself into actually believing in. You have to be really mentally ill to believe those

>>20760602
Look into Islam

>>20761362
In Christ

>>20760602
What an astoundingly ugly book cover.

>>20761586
>You have to be really mentally ill to believe those
On the contrary >>20761486

>>20761606
Terrible stat for so many obvious reasons it makes me question your intelligence. Not only do right wingers often deny the existence of depression they would never admit to having it because it makes them look weak. They would also never go to therapy to get checked it out because therapy is for liberals. Knowing this obviously the number would be much lower.

>>20760602
david bentley hart's experience of god convinced me that theism should be the null hypothesis. hart is a smug, repetitive cunt but i just hadn't heard the metaphysical arguments stated seriously.

it helps if you've noticed that many phenomena with complex materialist explanations can be more usefully understood through spiritualist metaphor ("egregores", "moloch"). my transition was from viewing those metaphors as false-but-useful to simply viewing them as correct, whereas the materialist explanations are narrowly correct but blinkered.

>>20760602
Is this fake? No one can be this stupid and gay.
There's a book called THE FUCKING BIBLE which you seem to be aware of. Go to your church, ask your family. What's the point of this thread.

>>20761623
I can post anything whatsoever, it's a known fact. I can post dozens and you know it too. Why are you arguing against reality?

> In an article also published in this issue of Mayo Clinic Proceedings, Mayo Clinic researchers reviewed published studies, meta-analyses, systematic reviews and subject reviews that examined the association between religious involvement and spirituality and physical health, mental health, health-related quality of life and other health outcomes.
<The authors report a majority of the nearly 350 studies of physical health and 850 studies of mental health that have used religious and spiritual variables have found that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes

>>20761635
>d religious and spiritual variables have found that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes
Yes deluding yourself can help with many mental issues. If you don't actually think your going to die but actually fly to heaven on a winged horse life feels so much better

>>20761642
Depression is a common illness; 6% to 10% of the population experience notable depression during their life-time.66
Recent longitudinal studies have examined the relationship between religious involvement and spirituality and depression. One study67
examined the effects of self-reported religious salience on the incidence and course of depression in a community-based sample of 177 persons (age, 55–89 years) in 1 year. Religious salience was associated not only with less risk of depression but also with recovery from depression among those who were depressed at the start of the study (especially those in poor physical health). Another study68
examined the association between intrinsic religiosity and remission of depression among 94 depressed medically ill men (age, =60 years) in 1 year. After adjustment for 27 potential confounding variables, intrinsic religiosity was significantly associated with a greater likelihood of remission and a more rapid remission from depression.
In a study69
of the treatment of depressed religious persons, standard cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) was compared with standard CBT with religious content and with pastoral care alone. The patients who received CBT with religious content or pastoral care alone had significantly less posttreatment depression compared with those who received standard CBT. In a similar study,70
investigators randomly assigned religious Muslim patients with depression to standard therapy (medications and supportive psychotherapy) or to standard therapy with religious psychotherapy. Those receiving religious psychotherapy experienced a significantly more rapid recovery than those receiving standard therapy alone.
A recent review71
examined the relationship between religious involvement and depression. Of 29 studies that examined this relationship, 24 found that religiously involved persons had fewer depressive symptoms and less depression, whereas the remaining 5 studies found no association.

>>20761647
>>20761642
>>20761635
bots

>>20761642
>>20761650
Who are the mentally ill? Atheists believe in research right? Do you have a source for your claims?

Religious involvement has been shown to be associated with less anxiety. One study72
examined the relationships between multiple religious variables (eg, attendance at religious services, self-rated importance of religion, and private religious activities) and recent and lifetime anxiety disorders among nearly 3000 adults. Controlled for sex, chronic illnesses, negative life events, and socioeconomic status, religious involvement was associated with decreased recent and lifetime anxiety among the youngest patients (age, 18–39 years), but not among the oldest (age, 60–79 years). Another study73
examined the relationship between spiritual well-being and anxiety in 114 adults with newly diagnosed cancer. Patients with high levels of spiritual well-being had lower levels of anxiety regardless of sex, age, marital status, diagnosis, group participation, or time since diagnosis.
Notably, 2 randomized clinical trials70
, 74
involving religious Muslim patients with anxiety disorder compared standard therapy (medications and supportive psychotherapy) with standard therapy and religious psychotherapy. Those who received religious psychotherapy experienced a significantly more rapid recovery than those receiving standard therapy alone.
A recent review48
of nearly 70 cross-sectional and prospective studies found that religious involvement is associated with less anxiety or fear.

>>20760602
The basis of Christian religion: the miracles of Christ, the Trinity, etc, are all made up garbage that only a complete moron could believe. But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the cultural stuff, the traditions, the music, the art, etc. Go back and read the Bible, it's pure KINO.

>>20760602
Dude i had a similar experience in my late 20's.
Was lonely, not winning in life, felt the need for something wholesome and community. Read Mere Christianity and decided it was tenable. Started going to a local church.
For a while i got really into it, tried really hard to believe it and take it seriously.
In the end though some part of me knew it was all silly nonsense and after about three and a half years of larping i gave up.
I don't believe in god and all the larping and activity of those three and a half years didn't really change that. It made me feel dishonest and desperate. Church didn't fix my loneliness and it didn't make me feel like i was winning in life. It just gave me a slightly cringey social circle for a few years.
I look back now and cringe pretty hard. I'm glad i woke up before i did something dumb like marry a girl from church and get stuck in that lifestyle forever.

>>20761647
>>20761656
A redditor religious person. Never thought they existed. Where do you think you are that you think posting jewish stats are going to help your case?

>>20761656
>>20761647
What does this have to do with believing in talking donkeys?

>>20761671
believe in the donkey or get tortured for eternity, chud

>>20761642
Really tho? It didn't work for me because I knew it was a lie. How do people actually manage to delude themselves like that?

>>20761674
Do you think it sounded like Eddie Murphy or a white guy?

>>20761667
>Where do you think you are that you think posting jewish stats are going to help your case?
So now the atheist rejects science too. Rejects god, science, reality, everything just to hold to their ego.
>>20761671
It has everything to do with your claim that the religious people are the mentally ill. They're not: you are and the statistics show it. Atheism is directly correlated with mental illness. You're sick and instead of trying to cure yourself you try to spread your sickness to others who seek help.

>>20760602
You gotta have a mystical experience anon. You been in the confines of our physical reality too long. Fast or do drugs not joking

>>20761491
I'm not really seeing a problem here. If anything, this shows that atheists aren't held back by an irrational fear of death and therefore can exit life more easily. That's my plan if circumstances overwhelm me. Imagine being held hostage by life. Sounds like a living hell.

>>20761679
Already have some built in mental illness

>>20761689
>suicide is actually good!
The atheist mind, the mind behind the "Christianity is a mental illness" posts. Follow atheists if you want to kill yourself because that's their only solution.

>>20761684
Let's talk about you. Do you have a history of mental illness? You type like a schizophrenic

>>20761709
The free thinking atheist renounced science and logic to resort to logical fallacies.

>>20761687
on this note, is there anyone here that's actually found God and hasn't tried shrooms or acid?

>>20761598
What's the actual significance of Christ though?

>>20761684

>>20761723
Fallacies and memes, great showing.

>>20761729
Shut your mouth get on your knees and kiss the African feet

>>20761702
I'm sorry I'm not well-adjusted enough to threaten children with eternal torment, but yes, suicide is a form of liberation. The strife that you people have created surrounding death allows for your own prescriptive madness just to work through it.

You'll get there eventually too, and we're all going to the same place.

>>20761714
Go without water for 3 days. On the 4th day have your first drink. You will witness the sacred unifying mystery of life

>>20761733
you're aware that you can't kill yourself, right? you literally can't do it. the universe is tailored to keep you right on the edge.

>>20761733
>suicide is a form of liberation.
This is what atheists should preface all their advice: that they're a suicide cult.

>>20761730
Suck those toes. Love your enemy.

>>20761392
Cont.

I will repeat OP. Catholicism or any other brand of Christianity WON'T cure your depression just it can't cure your irritable bowel syndrome.

You'll only end up delusional and just as depressed. And since you've already dabbled into the truth of atheism you'll never fully be able to reconcile belief in spiritual entities with that truth.

Trust me. I was an atheist and later turned to religion. It'll never be the same. Better avoid the hassle.

>>20761730
i always lol when i see the expression on their faces, the arab dude is like "lol the pope is gonna like my feet haha as it should be" and the chick is like "uhh that's kinda grody?" and the guy way at the end is like "it's not gay if the pope sniffs my feet right? is it too late to book it the hell out of here?"

>>20760602
It's possible to be happy with without being rational. It's not possible to be happy while being rational, without being moral. For rationality is morality. The morality espoused in Catholicism is still a valid guideline for living a happy life. If you live morally God will be proud of you. And he doesnt exist you will still live the best possible life. Loving and respecting your family tradition is a part of that.

>>20761362
>too lazy to read
>asks this
just go back to netflix

>>20761749
>Trust me. I was an atheist and later turned to religion. It'll never be the same. Better avoid the hassle.
Yeah, trust random depressed anon instead of the myriad of atheists who happily converted. This guy knows better than TS Eliot, trust him.

Athiests sure do project onto christians being death cultists, mentally ill etc but they genuinely seem to not like life more often than not. Seem like a depressing bunch

>>20761760
I'm only here to advice anon(presuming his issue is genuine) . Atheism is true there's no doubt in it. With that premise some people maybe can conjure up the cognitive dissonance to "happily convert". I don't disregard their experiences. I can only speak for my own as an atheist who re-adopted religion. You can fight the contradictions in your mind or hide them away in a closet. But I don't think one can go back to the way it was after reading and understanding atleast some of the atheistic points.

>>20761722
He's one of the persons of the trinity: the one who was incarnated and died for us. Christ is the easiest to believe in because he took human form instead of being an abstract intellectual entity. So what's ths significance of Christ?
>I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by Me

I converted last year off the strength of some of Jay Dyer's debate performances. But back in my troll days I _soyjacked Jesus and God a bunch and even blasphemed the holy spirit a few of times. Will I be forgiven? I'm legit sorry about it. I'd ask my priest but I doubt he understands internet humor.

>>20761800
You shouldn't advice anyone, you know nothing. You should help yourself instead of misleading others.

>>20761759
That's always the answer though. "read more books", and I don't even understand what I'm reading or why.

>>20761745
I didn't create death as a fact, but I do interpret it as a choice. If my "cult" promises liberation by choice, then sure, we're the best cult there is!

>>20761809
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit refers to suicide and that's unforgivable. Other than that, as long as you repent with all your heart, Christ forgives. Be glad Christ had mercy on you and make sure you use God's grace to help others.
>Parable of the Talents

>>20761805
Why though? Why that specifically?

>>20761833
What if the Holy Spirit sucks cock for pocket change?

>>20761837
Why what? I told you what's Christianity. That was your question. If you want to understand more, you need to put more effort: read the Bible, go to church, pray, etc.

>>20761809
Luke 23.24: "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

I'm going to break my own policy for 4chan and take this one seriously, even if I end up being trolled for it.

You have not blasphemed the Spirit. The demonstrable evidence of this is the remorse that you now feel. Respond to this conviction by turning from the world and from sin and clinging to Christ. However you know how, prayerfully confess to God and ask forgiveness. Follow the process of absolution however your tradition practices it. There is peace and grace being offered to you. Seize the opportunity to receive it.

>>20761817
I didn't advice OP on what I not know of. So your issue is mute. I don't presume to know of ways to cure depression or remedy loneliness. So I didn't comment on that.

But I can say what I do know. That is what won't work. That is sacrificing your authenticity at the alter of delusion

>>20761849
Why is the universe structured in such a way that God had to incarnate as a human and die? I don't understand any of that.

>>20761865
All you know is that your attempt was unsuccessful. You try to frame it as some natural law of the universe, which goes against empirical evidence in the form of successful converts. The problem is not that you tried to go from atheism to Christianity, the problem is that you did a poor job at it.

>>20761874
Well that's all explaied in the Bible. Humans were given free will, they ate the forbidden fruit, and became fallen creatures (Genesis). Then God tried to give us laws to live by through Moses, but humans failed to abide by laws (OT). Then finally Christ incarnated and died for us (NT). Now, through love of Christ, we are immediately pulled out of the shadows into the light, without forcing ourselves to respect Mosaic law. It lets us still have free will but instead of having us respect specific laws, Christ appeals to Love, which makes the Kingdom immediately present in our hearts. Once you accept Christ, this will go beyond mere conceptual abstractization.

>>20761906
I still don't get it. If God wants to forgive people for eating his fruit (I don't entirely get that part either, to be honest), why does he need to turn into a man, and then die? I can pretend that makes any sense to me, but it's like a complete non-sequitur.

>>20761922
Christ died in order to be resurrected. When Christ resurrected, the world did so too. All those who saw it spread the Gospel and it reached everyone including you and me today. It's not about forgiving people for eating the forbidden fruit. Infant baptism ensures that you're already forgiven for your sins. Christ forgives you for all your sins as long as you repent.

>>20761883
First, it was not christianity that I reverted back to.

Second, if OP has a thinking mind and any level of decency it just won't work.

Its like knowing that there are starving children in africa and then manipulate yourself into believing that Africa doesn't exist because it makes you happier or something.

Thirdly, we have not even touched upon the part where what OP is describing is a mental disease and telling him to believe in fairy tells to feel better doesn't resolve whatever underlying issue that is causing it.

Further there little correlation and almost no causation between one's religious beliefs(or lack thereof) and mental health. Some atheists may have converred "happily" but I'm sure that 100x more lifetime christians are still depressed.

You probably are an atheist because you think there’s no empirical evidence of God, but there’s no empirical evidence of the validity of the empirical method either.

>>20761937
I feel like there are mechanisms here that aren't properly explained. Forgoing the question of why God created people, just to feed them through what to me just seems to be a bizarre series of loyalty tests, he can't just tell people what he wants?

>>20761966
He wants you to love Christ, it's pretty clear from the Bible.

>>20761971
Literally nothing about that makes sense to me.

>>20761985
See >>20761849
> If you want to understand more, you need to put more effort: read the Bible, go to church, pray, etc.

>>20761990
I have legitimately tried is the thing. Whenever Christians say this, it just feels like them running away.

>>20761922
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commandment, they willingly turned themselves away from God’s grace and love, leaving communion with God. Spiritual death and its counterpart physical death followed. God did not just abandon man, he said from the beginning that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent (the devil), and this is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ became man for many reasons—one of them is to serve as the perfect teacher for humanity, another is to deify our human nature and to give it the ability to be restored in the image and likeness of God, as it was created. This is why Paul says that Christ, though he was rich, became poor, so that through his poverty, he may make us ourselves rich. This is referring to participating in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4, etc.)

Jesus Christ came to us, because we cannot get back to God through our own efforts. There is an infinite ontological gap between man and God, and man fell away and closed himself off, therefore the infinite condescends out of love and mercy to us. Christ’s death destroyed the power of death. It was not able to overcome him, as darkness is annihilated by the approach of the sun. We were no longer alienated from God, and those in Hades could follow Christ if they so willed. Triumphantly, Christ rose from the dead victorious, having destroyed the works of the devil, ordering that the Good News of his victory be spread to every corner of the earth. Love God, love your neighbor, have faith in Christ, and be saved.

>>20761993
Then keep trying. I prayed for months into what felt like a black void before God one day answered me out of the blue, and it was from there that I actually believed and could say I had faith in God rather than just a vague intellectual affirmation. Also, this didn’t lead to me becoming specifically Christian until a few months later.

>>20760602
i suspect that ceasing to browse a japanese cartoon website would help greatly

>>20761993
>Whenever Christians say this, it just feels like them running away.
Well, I answered all your questions, and you said my answers don't make sense to you. I'm telling you that reading image board answers is not enough and you need to put in more effort. Others will explain to you differently, but more importantly God will help you if He sees you actually try, and He'll show you the path Himself. You can't get everything from a 5 minute YouTube video. Another meaning of the Cross is suffering: in order to be resurrected, you first need to suffer. I know this is often not accepted in Western Christianity, but it's the truth.

>>20761996
Well, that's better.
Though the question of why anything exists in the first place still nags at me. What is God actually doing? Why is he doing it? Why does it all strike me as a slightly sadistic game?
I mean, if I had a load of babies, and I locked them in a room where I never spoke to them, and occasionally fed them riddles, and then threw them into a fire if they couldn't correctly comprehend the riddles, what would people think of me?

All religions are false and mind prisons
Don't become yet another larper like the faggots ITT

>>20761996
Imagine seriously believing in this bullshit lmao
Tradlarpers are something else

>>20761833
>suicide and that's unforgivable
Good goy

>>20761966
Remember the history of the ideas. You're coming from an atheistic background so that shouldn't be a problem.
We don't start out knowing anything. There are things apparent about the world like it apparently follows universal rules. That's the foundation of monotheism and science.
It starts with monkeys with a simple neural net and if you could call it a religion it's kind of monotheist - we then anthropomorphize patterns and turn animist or spirit worshipers. The patterns become more general and abstract until you get polytheism with very abstract gods. That turns into one abstraction to cover everything, monotheism which is then related to the newly discovered idea of formal logic.

We are here and we're not omnipotent, there's no point in disputing these parts of the description that are completely apparent.

>>20761966
Nicaean christianity makes zero sense and requires insane mental gymnastics to buy into, disregard it entirely

>>20762103
in favour of what?

>>20762037
God created the universe solely out of love, completely freely. Nothing necessitates the existence or creation of any of this. It’s all utterly contingent. But God wanted other beings to share in his own goodness and love, and gave them the chance and freedom to do so, or not to. He never forces us.

God has never abandoned us in the way you say in your analogy though. God never leaves us, in the same way that the sun remains shining on the face of a blind man even if his eyes do not work to see it. Sin blinds people, they are like cataracts on the eye of our soul. God has given us everything, we see evidence of his power and wisdom all throughout the created order, and even children can naturally see this teleology before it is educated out of them, and oftentimes the mere sight of the beauty of nature will stun and awe us, all of this is directly from God, and what he has implanted in our souls along with our conscience, which is the law of God written on our heart. Read Romans 1 and Romans 2. The Bible and the Church are two more aspects of this, and while the Bible may be sometimes hard to understand, we have two millennia of great saints and other figures who deeply knew the Scriptures to guide us. Christ teaches that the fullness of the law is contained in loving God and one’s neighbor. It’s not rocket science, and many humans even before Christ incarnate, from the Law written on their hearts, knew the idea of the Golden Rule, taught by Christ. One will be judged according to what they know. Hell is no more than separation from God, the source of life, love, beauty, truth and all goodness.

>>20761957
>First, it was not christianity that I reverted back to.
There's your problem.

>>20761996
>jesus was a trustfunder
this explains everything lmao

>>20762146
I just don't know if I believe that. I can look out at the world, and squint my eyes, and pretend that what I see is goodness and love, but I think that would be a lie.

>>20762223
i always imagine the guy posting this is some communist with a bunch of marx shit on his shelf that he accepts uncritically. same to you buddy, same to you.

>>20762202
The world is not perfect, it is fallen. The Bible teaches that the current order has been subjected to futility and is under the bondage of corruption, undergoing, so to speak, the pains of labor before the coming of the new heaven and the new earth that will begin with Christ’s second coming and the final judgment. This is in Romans 8:18-25. Many horrible things happen in the world, great acts of cruelty. Everything created by God is good in essence, but it is twisted and distorted by sin (which is of course merely turning away from God). I did not get this attitude overnight, so it might be hard to grasp in some sense, but I think we can all admit that despite the cruelty of nature and the like that we may often see, there is also a great amount of beauty, intricate complexity, etc.

>>20762258
Am I supposed to take the story about the apple literally? I feel I have been punished far too much because some bint ate an apple at the beginning of time.

>>20760602
How are you retards so basic?
>Bro, it's between atheism and religion and only the latter can give le meaning
Why the fuck are you retards so one dimensional, have you seen how many philosophies, ideologies, schools of thought and even religions there are? How you can combine and make whatever you want with all these ideas? And you boil all this shit into a binary choice? I'm not religious and I'm not depressed, never was in fact, have a meaning in life, am completely content and have a gf. Read more fucking books is my advice, if you still cannot figure things out and cannot make your worldview then you're fucking retarded. Think for yourself.

>>20762282
you're being punished for people making the construct "good and evil" now you have to live up to this standard before that everyone was running around in the woods doing whatever no care in the world.

>>20762300
glorious glorious rape.

>>20762146
>share in his own goodness and love
>the beauty of nature will stun and awe us
What about all the children that are being brutally raped while you're writing this?

>>20762258
>Everything created by God is good in essence, but it is twisted and distorted by sin
>Many horrible things happen in the world, great acts of cruelty.
What about all the natural disasters that leave innocents homeless and children orphans and mutilated? Also because of sin?

>>20762292
Wait till you grow up.

>>20760602
I don't understand people like this. I don't *choose* what I believe in. I can't help what I believe. I believe whatever seems to be true. Any other than that is literal LARPing.

>>20762332
>>20762223

>>20762180
Infact someone who was never christian I can see through its flaws more clearly than most.

Reverting back to whatever faith you were indoctrinated into, after having been atheist is bad enough. But converting to an entirely new delusion is just downright insane.

That's why I never understand people who change their religion because they found more rationale in the arguments of other side. For if you actually were to employ rational analysis in deciding your beliefs then atheism should be the only viable path left. Those who never change their beliefs are easier to understand in that regard

>>20762335
Good point, but it certainly doesn't contradict what I said. Notice that I said
>whatever *seems* to be true.

>>20762341
>if you actually were to employ rational analysis in deciding your beliefs then atheism should be the only viable path left.
Debunked millions of time. Here's an easy video for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wUqoJXKHs

>>20760602

You can't anon. Like, if this is not some stupid thread to get the religious out - If you don't accept God, or the various ways you can get to God, you won't ever find him again. You can delude yourself, but that nagging doubt and your rational brain will always be crying out against it. If you feel you need the community and tradition of faiths - there are alternatives/ you can simply go to these things. Go to a church to meet people, go to a church social. Unless you are going to start tipping your fedora left and right at their sincerity (which if you are not autistic, you won't because - basic fucking sociability here). Also why Christianity? Why Catholic Christianity? Maybe another religion or philosophy will speak to you more.

>>20762403
>nagging doubt and your rational brain will always be crying out against it.
Atheism is irrational see >>20762374

>>20762374
>Deboooonked

Not nearly so. The arguments are already refuted in the comments. And frankly its the same bunch of gotcha! tier philosophical jargon that I've already encountered multiple times on this board. None which even begins to answer the very simple questions raised by atheists regarding the existence of God. Let alone a christian God

>>20762426
>The arguments are already refuted in the comments.
They aren't
>And frankly its the same bunch of gotcha! tier philosophical jargon that I've already encountered multiple times on this board.
So you're not intelligent enough to understand it. Then say so, don't talk about employing rational analysis when you don't even know what's that.

>>20760667
Dumb chart.

>>20762504
It's a good chart. What are your issues?

>>20762430
You know I could go that route too and simply call you retarded for ever believing in something that doesn't exist and has no proof of.

You have to turn to idealist jargon and call it logic precisely because your beliefs are unjustifiable. Just like a tranny who has to turn to gender existentialism to cope with the fact that he'll NBAW.

And the more our understanding of the universe progresses the more word salad you'll have to turn to, inorder to somehow reconcile your beliefs with reality.

Because Aquinas' 5 points don't help anymore. Simply believing in god because "who created man? " and "who throws lightning bolts" doesn't cut it anymore.

And even if the guy in that video does manage to conjure up some esoteric argument for the existence of a god like universal force, That god would be completely unrecognizable from the Christian God. Whose attributes are even harder to prove

>>20762520
>still no arguments against the TAG
This is embarrassing for you. Your only hope was that atheism is rationally superior but you can't justify its presuppositions. Now you have nothing. Sorry anon, this must be tough for you.

>>20760602
The Master and his Emissary may change your life if you slow down and realize its implictions for how you see the world.

>>20762374
I'm at a loss as to what this says to you. I watched the entire thing, read the comments from the acolytes, not one person saw the destruction of whatever this was supposed to be. You just need this so badly, I understand that much.

His entire "argument" is his god, not just any god, exists because oughts exist. Is this the level these assholes are playing at? This works for you? Also it just cuts off, so not only did he bring the full weight of nothing down on the guy, but he probably didn't even "win." You have nothing better than this?

>>20761491
Is there a version of this which has all the same year range (i.e. isn't completely retarded)?

>>20762598
If you have a refutation against the TAG post it and I'll respond tomorrow if the thread is still up. Look it up in its formal logical form, understand it, and respond coherently and logically.

Hey OP, I was like you until very recently. I have since reached a point where I feel God's presence in daily life.

Start by considering agnosticism. The way I see it there is no proof of God's existence or nonexistence, so being on the fence is the only reasonable position. Most saints doubted the veracity of the scriptures at various points in their lives, it is perfectly normal.

Then start doing the rites, reading the Bible and praying. Try to model your life after the examples given in the scriptures. When you are faced with a decision ask yourself what Jesus would do. If you're anything like me, your faith should start growing on its own after a while.

Don't bother looking for proof of God's existence. Don't worry about not having enough faith. Don't stop asking questions about the nature of the universe. Just do your best to live in God's light and your life will change.

>>20762552
You want to win this so badly don't you? It doesn't matter anon. Whatever weak ass bullshit (that you call "rational") was presented in that 17 minutes video which I didn't even bother waste time with, did not even nearly account for the plethora of reasons why belief in a deity is rationally unjustifiable.

Its actually telling that just like that guy doesn't even touch any of the atheistic arguments , you don't touch any of the points I raised in my previous comment.

I don't nearly care about what you believe in your head. If me not wasting my time on that video, that you parade around as the definite RATIONAL argument for the existence of a christian GOD, gives you a "win" then by all means take it.

You'll be just as delusional as you always were

>>20762622
What is the TAG? Is it just this guy explaining god should exist because we can think he should?

>>20762653
>Don't bother looking for proof of God's existence.

Lmfao this. Don't bother using your brain if you want sky daddy to solve your depression

>>20762665
Is that what the guy in the video said? Glad I didn't bother.

>>20762655
If you can't refute it don't say atheism is rational
>>20762665
Transcendental argument for God. Looking forward to reading a formal refutation when I wake up and not more cope. If you can't refute it, you'll know in your heart you're lying when you say atheism is rational.

>What if I'm wrong by not being a Christian?
Well, what if I'm wrong, I mean — anybody could be wrong. We could all be wrong about the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the pink unicorn and the flying teapot. You happen to have been brought up, I would presume, in a Christian faith. You know what it's like to not believe in a particular faith because you're not a Muslim. You're not a Hindu. Why aren't you a Hindu? Because you happen to have been brought up in America, not in India. If you had been brought up in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you had been brought up in Denmark in the time of the Vikings, you'd be believing in Wotan and Thor. If you were brought up in classical Greece, you'd be believing in Zeus. If you were brought up in central Africa, you'd be believing in the great Juju up the mountain. There's no particular reason to pick on the Judeo-Christian god, in which by the sheerest accident you happen to have been brought up and ask me the question, "What if I'm wrong?"

What if you're wrong about the great Juju at the bottom of the sea?

>>20762655
You lost several posts ago, anon.

>>20762700
You can have logic without god.
There, I thus refute it.

>>20762668
You sound just like me ten years ago.

I'm saying don't bother looking because there is no proof. In fact, there are many things that seems to contradict or disprove parts of the Bible. Christian Agnostics accept the idea that the Bible may be wrong but choose to follow its principles regardless.

>>20762700
>Transcendental argument for God.
Okay I just looked this up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_argument_for_the_existence_of_God#The_argument

>1. God is a necessary precondition for logic and morality (because these are immaterial, yet real universals).


The first fucking step in the argument simply asserts God exists. What a fucking joke

>>20760602
For depression I recommend this book
https://www.amazon.com/10X-Rule-Difference-Between-Success/dp/0470627603

Then apply it to all aspects of your life including your spiritual development. Its a good book with an added bonus of being a quick read.

Its not enough to attend Church, you must also get involved. After you read 10x, start shopping around for a Church you want to join, then join Bible study and make some friends.

>>20761390
>You’re lonely and depressed because you’re not conquering anything like a real man should. A book won’t fix that. You just want free gibs in heaven, don’t lie. Make your own success, be a man. Go do some pushups
underrated post

>>20762728
>filtered
NTA, it asserts a the existence of immaterial universals (the general fundementals being logic and morality) and defines God in relation to such. If you're going to attack it at least understand what it's doing.

>>20762758
>falling for the Christcucks philosophical hoop-jumping bait
Obviously logic and morality exist. And step 1 asserts that God is necessary for that.

>>20762765
That's not the argument, retard. Keep trying.

>>20762700
>Looking forward to reading a formal refutation

Don't bother. I don't intend to engage with unfalsifiable undemonstrable schlock being paraded as rationality and logic.

Just take the win and move on. Its not like I ever wanted to change your mind in the first place, I was talking to OP. And its not like if you didn't have this little TAG thing to psychologically convince yourself of your dogmas(with no rhyme or reason) you would suddenly renounce your beliefs and become atheist.

Plus we're still stuck at proving if god exists. I haven't even read TAG and I don't intend to but I'm aware that retarded philosophical arguments can only go so far. Even if you could somehow prove the existence of a God(which you rationally can't), you'd still be left to prove that this God is Christian and all that comes with it. And that's a gargantuan task even that guy in the video can't bullshit around.

You want OP, me and everyone else to believe that there is a great consciousness which controls the universe, the morals, our fate, the physical and the spiritual. That the holy trinity is real and everything the bible says about this consciousness is true. And the only thing, THE ONLY THING you offer to us is a 17 minute video of word play?????????

>>20760602
maybe study philosophy instead of obsessing over meme shit and wasting your time

>>20762772
Yes it is.

Well, I'm done engaging. It's fairly clear that we have incompatible worldviews, which is sad, because I'll bet we could find many things in common.

I sincerely wish you the best.

>>20762146
This is what I would have written, had I possessed the eloquent and succinct explanation. We have read and comprehended similar sources in similar ways. May God bless you, Brother.

>>20762785
>NTA
I told you I wasn't the same anon, retard. He got tired of your bullshit and went to bed.

>>20762716
>You lost several posts ago, anon.

Yup how will I ever recover from 17 minutes of philosophical sophistry. Lo ho I concede defeat. Word bullshit has convinced me that God oh lord can split oceans, turn water into wine, fly faster than superwoman and watches me when I fap to loli hentai. Oh how will my soul ever recover. I shall visit the nearest monastry right now and confess my sins. And Oh god have I sinned. Arguments about words and abstract concepts like "ought" maybe they are, but they prove, ohhhhhh they surely prove that I'm full of sin as my ancestor, that bloody cunt, ate that damn apple. God knows if I were there I'd have eaten the snake instead.

But there's hope anons. Yes there is.
TAG shows that my lord is there
and next time my air conditioner breaks down he'll answer my prayer
and cool my room with his cold icy glare.

>>20762815
Hey, thanks for being nasty. I thought we didn't do that kind of thing, around these parts, but I'm often wrong. I know exactly who I was replying to. But I really appreciate your "putting me in my place." I guess I needed it.

Demonstrate to me that God exists(pro tip: you can't)

>>20762838
I'm a different anon. You lost because you dismissed arguments as "word bullshit" instead of engaging with them and made lame jokes based on a really shallow read of religious history and meaning we've all heard of 1000 times before. The guy you were arguing with wasn't even really trying to "win" anything. That's why I said you lost. Do you understand that or is it too much of a word game for you? Christians are fully aware of the historical pretenses behind their mythos (e.g. why the virgin birth aspect of the story came about or why Jesus's birth in a specific location was explained away by saying there was a census for which there's no historical evidence); you're not and just disingenuously dismiss everything based on your own intellectual pride (which is in fact laughable). Wow! You're what, a 20 something bragging to strangers about how they figured out fairy tales aren't real? Great, most people figured that out before grade school. Congrats.

>>20762860
>condescending without earning it
>writes "christcuck" over and over
>hey! I'm winning the argument now because I'm not being nasty anymore
I told you I was a different anon. He was nicer (probably related to the fact he's Christian). Cope.

>>20761922
When you read about God doing some weird shit, think about the way an ant perceives the human world. Ants can clearly see our influence on their lives but they will always be unable to understand our nature. What we are to ants, spirits are to us.

>>20762869
Different anon, but you can't really argue against an argument whose first axiom is "God is necessary... " because now we're just using circular logic. Its not worth mounting any challenge, but if you want one.

1. God is not a necessary precondition for logic and morality.

This is on the exact same footing. That's why no one will engage with this. Your belief precedes any logic.

>>20762879
>NTA
>I don't have to back up any of my arguments because I'm Not That Anon
>I can reply to anything and say whatever I want because I'm ..
I'm NTA, but you're retarded

>>20762892
If you think that's the same argument you really are retarded. See >>20762758
>>20762899
My argument is that they're retards. The lesson is humility leads to growth. Pearls before swine but I let him know I appriciated his efforts. Simple as. Have a good time jerking yourselves off for not believing in Zeus.

>>20762930
>My argument is that they're retards.
NTA, but this is a pretty weak argument. I'm interested in truth, not "beating" the person you're arguing against, who might well be retarded. Sneed

>>20762940
>that is a pretty weak argument
People who (attempt to) maintain a pretense of superior intelligence while offering nothing but condescention toward someone who has made a sincere effort in understanding something are retards. Evidence of their behaviour is ITT (QED). Simple as.

>>20762971
>pretense of superior intelligence while offering nothing
I'm a different poster this time 'round.

Any particular reason for the insult? I don't remember saying anything bad about you. Maybe, we could have found more in common than you may think. We both seem to be passionate about the same kind of stuff.

I was under the impression that we should make an effort to be a wee bit more respectful with each other, than we might in venues like Reddit or Twitter (where they have the "digital Sneed" down to a science).

>>20762986
>condesention will surely save me this time
Like I said initially "NTA," you already lost. Keep playing with yourself.

>>20763013
>condesention
One of the more entertaining things in my life, is watching others "figure me out."
I'm pretty "out of band" (read: "weird").

I've never condescended anyone. I am generally fairly friendly, and open.

Lots of folks perceive that as weakness. Apparently you do too.

Have a great day!

>>20760602
Your problem is not being an atheist. Perhaps you feel isolated from your community for being an atheist or something similar?

>>20760602
Read Ed Feser’s books The Last Superstition and Five Proofs of the Existence of God. He is a Catholic and he makes arguments that, imho, are more convincing than any atheist argument I’ve come across. Also read Pensées by Pascal. My sense after reading Pensées is that he found himself in a place a lot like yours, and ended up believing in Christianity.

>>20761362
You will love Knowledge and Christian Belief by Plantinga. It answers this and other questions you didn’t know you had.
It’s short too.

>>20761390
Cringe. Come back to this thread when you’re older anon.

>>20761660
based. Thanks for sharing your tale anon.

>>20762869
>Great, most people figured that out before grade school.

Clearly you people didn't. Though it is amusing to see you hide behind sophistry to be able to cling to those beliefs. Which is quite a paradox, adult enough to come up with ever more convoluted arguments but not nearly adult enough to drop the pretense altogether.

You accuse us of having a really shallow reading of religious history but you can't even offer an alternative that doesn't dilute your own religious beliefs. This is also demonstrated in how you use TAG as an argument which itself has a diluting effect since it can presumably barely argue(not prove) an impassionate force of nature God, a purely abstract philosophical entity, let alone a loving God who was father to Christ with an active role in this world. (a point I'm repeating for the 4th time now) .

And oh god its diluted. With the way things are going with christian institutions they'll become more atheistic in a century than people like me today.

No. I'm not here to prove you wrong, I'm not here to change your mind. And I'm certainly not going to engage with bullshit. I know and you know that you can't demonstrate the existence of a deity. I could've thrown all the atheistic arguments at him(which I'm sure you've probably heard and which, unlike TAG, are not convoluted word plays but very simple but irrefutable points that are very much connected with our reality) but that's a debate I'm not getting into. So take the win already if it makes you feel better

>>20762282
Don’t listen to the loud cringe American Protestant evangelicals. The standard Christian view is that Genesis 1-12 is a special genre and that the Jews themselves believed it to be true but not factual. You don’t have to believe in the historicity of the apple or the flood or the tower of babble in order to be a genuine Christian that believes the Bible is true.

Ten years ago, I gave my life to Christ after a failed marriage. I've always followed what I felt was intuitive, and I was in the occult up to that point. I then went to a non-denominational church that spoke in tongues. It was a great little church. This was in Arkansas while I was in US Army.

Then I moved to Seoul and got involved with a ministry that turned out to be a Christian cult. I did ask for something like this of the Lord to learn His ways and the Bible better. They did get me to study the Bible in a very conservative way.

I left after 12 years. It was kind of brutal as I left with nothing and had to be homeless for 3 weeks. Then I rebuilt my life by getting a job and a place to live. I moved back to my home town in California and later found a church-going woman to marry.

The church she goes to, and now I, is called the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM). I know the scripture very well. I know how to apply it. I know how to talk to people. I like to befriend non-Pastafaris and let them know about the gospel.

I'm currently working on meditation, and I've been seeing good results. I'll always be an intuitive, God made me that way.

>>20761660
This is what happens when you, as a relatively normal and educated person, try to convert to Christianity as an adult. If you don’t have that foundation of belief as a child, it is incredibly hard to obtain it later. The people who do manage to convert and 100% believe are, well, fucking crazy. Your standard evangelical schizo doesn’t even hold a candle to the newly converted.

>>20763217
Agreed. I already mentioned somewhere else in this thread that people who change their religion baffle me. Changing to atheism seems far more likely and believable

>>20760602
>>20762103
>Nicaean christianity makes zero sense and requires insane mental gymnastics to buy into, disregard it entirely

Start with the Christian claim of the Resurrection, the evidence for which is surprisingly strong. It is laid out nicely in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM

>>20760602
>i grew up catholic and i love my familys weddings and funerals and traditions so i would like to become catholic again. it just seems impossible

Here is a spiritual *fact*: You were baptized, and that baptism left a permanent mark on you -- your metaphysical status has changed, you are indelibly a child of God. The fact you wrote what you did, that you reached out as it were articulated this desire may well be, in fact very likely is God's prevenient grace at work in you. The idea of prevenient grace is explained here:

>The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God,
>may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification,
>by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace.

That is from the Council of Trent's teaching on justification.

In accord with the very likely possibility that God's grace is already at work in you, you should pray for God's light and guidance. You should trust that God is good, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and promise that if He does so, you will be faithful to Him with the help of His grace.

A very inspiring book that I recommend you give a try is: Divine Mercy in My Soul by Sr. Faustina. It's a popular book, and it should be easy to find a copy.

> what actually is Christianity, in it's most basic, idiot proof form? What am I supposed to be believing in?

What is Christianity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovrqk0e8gfM

I would also highly recommend this very fine and readable book that unpacks the meaning of the Bible - the slow revelation of the nature of God that preceded, and prepared the way for, the coming of Christ - and in so doing provides a deeper understanding of the answer to the question you pose:

Louis Bouyer, The Bible and the Gospel: The Meaning of Scripture
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gospel-Meaning-Scripture-Speaks/dp/1949899519

>>20761809
Acts 8
>36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
>37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
>38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
>39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip*, that the eunuch saw* him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 16:31
>And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Shalt. Not might. Not maybe, if you try really hard. SHALT. Christ did the whole work of mankind's redemption in his crucifixion, death, and resurrection. His hand is reaching out to you, and literally all you have to do is believe in what he did for you.

>>20760602
Reading this thread, I am now fully convinced that most atheists are juvenile retards, full of pride.

>>20763259
The Pharaoh did nothing wrong.

>>20763259
Nobody asked

>>20763259
Based. They're a lesson on why pride is considered the father of all sins.

>>20760667
The problem with that is that every religion has prophecies that seem to have come true.

Listen. If you want to convert people, you should focus on making them feel good. Go out and do charity work. Make people in need associate love and kindness with the church.

>>20761362
It's a system of authority predicated on the natural human fear of death. In return for your obedience to a church overlord, you are granted a false promise of eternal life to soothe your anxiety.

>>20760602
Read all these: Plato Full Works, Aristotle Full Works, Catholic Bible, Catechism, Augustine Full Works, Aquinas Full Works. If you read 2 hours a day it should take you like 1-2 years. Congrats you're Catholic

>>20762311
>evil people doing evil things of their own evil wills
>somehow this is God's fault
free will, whether you like it or not, permits people to live in sin
they will pay for such sins with their lives

>>20762838
My utmost pity extends to you.
I hope you manage to turn away from your habits of jacking off to cartoon children.
And too, that your attention span can grow enough to the point that you can actually engage with people instead of just looking for quick dopamine from angrily posting online.

>>20763086
His sperg was better.

>>20761362
Christianity is pro-human as we are all the blood of Christ.

>>20763493
That's medieval Christianity. Nowadays most Christians look at God himself as the only authority worth obeying. Church overlords like the pope and big name preachers are seen as inspirational but ultimately flawed.

don’t do it OP, you can create your own meaning in life without resigning yourself to taking a leap of faith. You’ll just live against yourself

>>20763236
>Start with
lmao

I sincerely don't understand why you would want to cling to an external belief system and immediately default back to the arbitrary one you were raised in. From an outside perspective, Christianity makes very little sense and is very obviously manmade
The community is the only reason I can think of

>>20760602
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica is the main thing that converted me. I started by reading it online then got an abridged edition, I'd recommend an abridged edition if you don't want to spend a fortune. There's a Penguin book, Peter Kreeft, Hackett Publishing, (I got A Concise Translation by McDermott), etc. It was gradual, but I became convinced after ruminating on Aquinas, reading commentary on him, watching videos on him, etc.
>>20761362
The Apostles' Creed.

>>20761362
Forgot to mention that Aquinas wrote a commentary on the Apostles' Creed if you want a more comprehensive answer.
https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/apostle-s-creed/st-thomas-aquinas-on-the-apostle-s-creed

>muh community
>muh meaning
>muh Five Copes of Aquinas

Is this literally every christtard thread ever?

>>20763634
>engage with people

Lol no.

>>20764180
Any reason for Apostles' Creed over the more catholic (in the original meaning of the word, not denomination [though it is important for the denomination as well]) Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed?
Not trying to knock your suggestion of it, just curious about the choice.

>>20760602
I grew up Catholic too. What you miss is being properly ingratiated into a community based on shared values - this is psychology 101.

>>20762725
>You can have logic without god.
How?
>>20762728
>The first fucking step in the argument simply asserts God exists. What a fucking joke
How do immaterial, real universals exist without God?

>>20762774
You claimed atheism is rational. TAG argues that it is not. As a rational person, you should either address the arguments or renounce the conviction that atheism is rational and admit you don't know what you're talking about.

>>20761778

Yes, not being blinded by religion does make life incredibly depressing, since you will realise how many things are your fault.

>>20762653
This is good advice for atheists. Agnosticism is the first step towards the truth becaus humbleness is necessary.

>>20765057
>t. doesn't know the first thing about Christianity

>>20761805
>Christ is the easiest to believe in
Who cares?

>>20765071

Explain how.

Because we don’t have a ‘gods plan’ to go to when something bad happened, we can’t go and confess to your local pedophile and suddenly all your sins are forgiven, we don’t have heaven or hell to look forward to.

Compared to religious people, we atheist put ourselves into a gigantic disadvantage. But we’re correct and everyone in a developed country knows that.

>>20765096
>Explain how.
Christians fully take blame for their faults and it's an essential part of redemption.
>suddenly all your sins are forgiven
Huh? You're an atheist, there are no sins, no morality, nothing.
>Compared to religious people, we atheist put ourselves into a gigantic disadvantage.
Of course, you're living a lie away from God in Satan's embrace. It's a cursed life until you start fixing yourself.

>>20764962
>you should either address the arguments

Nuh uh. Not gonna engage with schlock. The phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" applies here. Come back when you have something more substantial than word play.

Infact you should be grateful that I'm refusing to engage with TAG. That way atleast you can chest thump around (falsely) claiming that your schlock has rationally debunked atheism while copy pasting the same comment over and over like a special ed kid. I intend to give you guys atleast some leeway here.

I mean I can read TAG and instantly refute it just like all other deistic arguments. And watch you all chimp out and cope about it. (Infact another anon in this very thread did just that and everyone is still coping over it. ). But where's the fun in that? ;)

>>20761390
kek the NPC atheist is really desperate for power trips

>>20765146
Well, at least you renounced pseudo rationality, so now you're left with absurdism. One day the cognitive dissonance will push a step closer to the truth.

>>20765168
>will push a step
will push you*

>>20765168
Nah. Atheism is still the rational choice. Seethe over it.

>>20765177
Irrationally claiming it's rational doesn't make it rational, you're just an absurdist in denial. Small steps.

>>20765113

>Christians fully take blame for their faults and it's an essential part of redemption.

Way I was thought as long as you confess you’re all good.

>Huh? You're an atheist, there are no sins, no morality, nothing.

I’ve got my own rules I follow, they’re more lax than the Christian dogma but I still feel guilty when I E.G masturbate or fail to help someone.

> Of course, you're living a lie away from God in Satan's embrace. It's a cursed life until you start fixing yourself.

There’s no fixing what isn’t broken chief.

>>20765207
>Way I was thought as long as you confess you’re all good.
If you repent and confess you're forgiven. That doesn't mean it wasn't your fault. It doesn't even mean you can easily forgive yourself.
>I’ve got my own rules I follow, they’re more lax than the Christian dogma but I still feel guilty when I E.G masturbate or fail to help someone.
Jusst make them even more lax bro, who cares? Life is short, memento mori, YOLO, Jah-jah bless, etc.

>>20765216

> If you repent and confess you're forgiven. That doesn't mean it wasn't your fault. It doesn't even mean you can easily forgive yourself.

If you actually believe and you aren’t just LARPing there’s no incentive to feel sad about whatever you’ve done. And you don’t need to forgive yourself because you don’t have free will if you think you’re Christian, so not a single thought you have matters!

> Jusst make them even more lax bro, who cares? Life is short, memento mori, YOLO, Jah-jah bless, etc

Yeah it’s short, that’s why I try not to waste it.

>inb4 you’re on 4chan

>>20765177
Cont.

And its ironic that you'd mention cognitive dissonance here. Since such dissonance is such a part of parcel of believing in a loving good once could almost conclude that you are actually an atheist trying to troll everyone. Like a politician calling out others for lying and cheating as a meta joke.

It is exactly this cognitive dissonance between the nature of this world, rational logic on one side and belief in a loving God on other side that lead to my current beliefs

Though atleast its fun to see you soothing your own cognitive dissonance with word salads like TAG which prove absolutely nothing in the real world. Truly a dive into the human psyche

>>20765254
>you don’t have free will if you think you’re Christian
You're very confused. You should educate yourself at least on the basics before attacking Christianity.

>>20765261
> *Loving god one

>>20765187
Is this another meta joke on your side?

Since we both know youve done your fair share of claiming rationality in the irrationality of already debunked TAG

>>20765261
Without trying to offend, you should take a look at yourself with honesty and realize you are not equipped to understand much of what rationality and logic are. Your barriers are not logic and reason, you have other emotional issues probably related to disappointment and depression. You're wasting your time building this thin veil of rationality around yourself and it won't get you anywhere.

>>20765286
>debunked TAG
Post the refutation. Explain how immaterial, real universals exist without God.

>>20765289
This is completely irrelevant and tangential to your inability to rationally prove that a god exists, let alone a loving christian one.

Maybe I should have counted number of seconds it'd taken for your to resort to calling me >le depressed
Simply because I do not partake in your irrational beliefs

>>20765303
>your inability to rationally prove that a god exists
TAG already did it. Berkeley also did it. Aquinas also did it. I don't need to do anything, rationality was never on your side.

>>20765294
>Infact you should be grateful that I'm refusing to engage with TAG. That way atleast you can chest thump around (falsely) claiming that your schlock has rationally debunked atheism while copy pasting the same comment over and over like a special ed kid. I intend to give you guys atleast some leeway here.

>I mean I can read TAG and instantly refute it just like all other deistic arguments. And watch you all chimp out and cope about it. (Infact another anon in this very thread did just that and everyone is still coping over it. ). But where's the fun in that? ;)

>Just take the win and move on. Its not like I ever wanted to change your mind in the first place, I was talking to OP.

>>20765310
All of them have been refuted on an argumentative basis. Of course not even mentioning that all of these basically amount to unfalsifiable mental gymnastics and I pity you if you base your entire world view around those. I don't even blame you I blame the education system for such lack of critical thinking

>>20765341
>it's debunked but I refuse to engage with it
>I reject rationality but I'm rational
>I'm not an absurdist but I sink in the absurd
Like I said, your issue is not rational but emotional or mental. I don't know how to help you further.

Religion truly is a mental illness.

>>20760626
>all the arguments you know are either fallacious or strawmen.
Absolute state of this cope

>>20765353
>it's debunked but I refuse to engage with it

YES

>I reject rationality but I'm rational

I reject YOUR irrationality, therefore I am rational

>I'm not an absurdist but I sink in the absurd

>literally wants people to believe in an all powerful GOD that watches them all the time and governs their life, will punish their soul after death or reward it. And the truth of this God and afterlife is written in the Bible. And all he offers as evidence for all this is philosophical gobbleslop.

This conversation crossed the line of ABSURD long ago lmao.

>>20764808
He asked for the most basic, and the Apostles' Creed is the shorter and easier version. Both are used in Catholicism anyway.

>>20762374
Not a huge fan of Jay, but that was very nicely done. I would actually be curious to hear an on-point refutation, or attempt at one. The remarks on this board blithely (or angrily) dismissing the argument without actually addressing its claims (or flatly misunderstanding the claims, e.g., dubiously applying Hume's is/ought moral distinction to an empirical question) are by no means persuasive.

>>20765942
There isn't one. What atheists had to do was completely retreating into relativism renouncing morality and logic as universal system, thus becoming postmodernists or, classically, sophists. That's why atheists are justly accused of being intellectually indistinguishable from trannies. They have no intellectual argument against it, so they are forced to embrace it or become fully anti-intellectuals and renounce any right to partake in an intellectual discussion.

>>20760602
Your fallacious atheist arguments won't stop you from learning the truth. While the road to Catholicism should be spiritual and not sterile and scientific, knowing that there's scientific legitimacy is a good start.

I see evidence of the Creator in everything. It's common for biologists to become monotheistic after learning just how detailed and clearly designed every organism is--it takes an incredible amount of faith to call every aspect of God's design a coincidence.

It takes more faith to be an atheist than a monotheist. To be an atheist requires millions of assumptions that ignore the massive improbability of our existence, but to be a monotheist requires only one: that there is a force of nature greater than ourselves whose design is present in every bird wing, every perfectly sculpted eyeball, every leaf on every tree and every pincer on every ant.

The more you study the machinations of nature--God's creation--the more clear His intricate design becomes. He's the ultimate engineer and the greatest artist; studying art helped me realize that all good art seeks to imitate nature in some way, whether it be through realism, color theory, composition, or form, and things such as the Fibonacci Spiral help us see that.

You need historical context to read the Bible and understand it. While everyone telling you to study the Bible more are on the right track, it won't mean anything if you don't have the historical context to understand it.

Start with the book of Proverbs, and move on to Romans and Acts. Use a study guide.

Proverbs was written by the historical figure King Solomon of Israel. When God offered him anything, he asked only for wisdom, and God granted it to him

Romans was written by the impossibly brilliant figure Paul (originally named Saul). Most atheists don't know who Paul actually was. He was a notorious bounty hunter who hunted down Christians and imprisoned them, executed them, and fed them to lions. Suffice to say, he was not a Christian.

He was on his way to Damascus, literally to kill more Christians, when God rebuked him, and he completely changed his ways. He had such a bad reputation that when he visited the Christians to tell them he had become one of their apostles, they were completely skeptical and assumed it was some kind of plot. But not only did this former Christian killer repent, but he became the most successful and prolific of the apostles.

Each of the apostles has an incredible story. Luke was a doctor, with a lot of attention to detail, so reading Luke compared to Matthew is interesting because you can see how much more detail-oriented Luke's writing is of the same events.

Peter was a foul-mouthed illiterate fisherman, who first disappointed Jesus of Nazareth by forsaking him. But then he boldly went with Paul through "Acts" on a massive undertaking that would swing the world into Christian faith.

Keep in mind also: God is stronger than you. There is no one so far gone that God can't save.

>>20766139
Yeah the beauty of crusades and killing Orthodox Christians, great religion but it's not Christianity.

>>20760602
Fuck all you brainlets. I'd bet everything none you geeks are even confirmed.

>>20760602
Jonathan Pageau videos on youtube as a start, and then Rene Girard's body of work. Too tired to elaborate more but these two are the easiest starting points to start thinking on.

>>20766159
confirmed what

I was an atheist for a long time. I'm not sure what I am now. Uncertain, I suppose. I have read a lot of Catholic theology now, I understand it all a lot better. I've also read some of the Traditionalists, and that was interesting too. I spent a long time looking for all the answers to common points that are brought up against religion, specifically Christianity, really, and I found that very often the answers were good. Not always, but very often. Enough to make me very uncertain about everything.

search gnosticism, then you can start with nag hammadi library when prepared

>>20767075
Come back home brothers, you've wandered for too long.

>>20765508
fair enough

>>20760602
A pointless, finite life is a gift. Christians love the idea of religion giving them meaning and purpose in life but don't like to dwell on the fact that they're probably still going to Hell afterward.

>>20767245
atheists are going for sure

>>20760602

Religion isn't about arguments it's about community, belonging, and ritual.

>>20760602
>it seems impossible to believe in anything.
don't believe that
if you're disillusioned by the world, then become disillusioned with your disillusion!

just know this:
atheism offers absolutely zero possible vindication

and
only God can open your eyes and allow you to believe in Him.
it is by His grace and His miracles that anyone is a Christian at all.

if you please God, then He will change you into a believer.

He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the one from whom all things stem, and the One to whom all things congregate. He is the consensus. He decides everything.

>>20763493
>he thinks he'll be dead forever

>>20767389
No, it's about faith, meaning, and a higher purpose

>>20761362
Read the Gospel of Mark, it takes only one hour to read all the way through.

>>20761362
God imposes a nigh-impossible morality onto the entirety of His creation
Only one Man (Jesus) achieved God's (Father's) moral standards
Jesus now has enough accumulated moral capital to spend on us so that we can avoid being annihilated by God.

>>20767436
>your mind on burger ideology

>>20767413

Is that not the same thing?

>>20767075
The spiritual life is such that you're either moving forwards or backwards. It's almost impossible to remain still (to remain still invariably leads to moving backwards).

I don't know what your reading tastes are, but a couple of books you might find helpful are:

-Thomas Merton, The Seven-Storey Mountain (especially Part II, which describes his conversion, baptism, and a period of backsliding)
-Sheldon Vanauken, A Severe Mercy
-John C.H. Wu, Beyond East and West
-Scott Hahn, Rome Sweet Home
-Spiritual Journeys, edited by Robert Baram
-Surprised by Truth series, especially the first volume.

The above are all conversion stories, as is pic related. I think such stories can be helpful for people struggling with faith - feeling adrift, as it were. These stories show the many different and varied ways people come to faith.

The below two books, otoh, set out the case for the Resurrection in a concise fashion:
-McDowell, More than a Carpenter
-Green, Was Jesus Who He Said He Was?

Also, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is well-written and can be very helpful.

Do not neglect to pray. *Ask* for the gift of faith (by praying, you are already making an act of faith). It is all a matter of grace. Trust in the goodness of God. Ask for God's light and guidance as you seek the gift of faith. As is written in the Epistle of James: "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you." In my experience, this is true.

>>20760602
I went from Catholic to atheist to Catholic though I am beginning to lean Reformed. There is a certain charm to returning to Catholicism and even taking the trad pill. But after doing some serious thinking about predestination vs. free will I am beginning to think St. Augustine and Calvin are more biblical than the free will crowd. Unfortunately it is difficult to find good literature on this subject because it's either controversial or super obscure. You won't find a decent discussion of the subject on any popular Catholic or Reformed subjects even though it is, at least to me, the utmost important difference between Catholics and Protestants.

>>20761362
moralist deism, everybody goes to heaven except the people you dislike

believing in god is not required in religion, in fact it's discouraged. Christians do not believe in god, they believe in christianity

>>20766056
I would say that in modern era it is the religious who are intellectually indistinguishable from trannies. In the sense that

1. Their beliefs are in sharp contrast with our collective knowledge and understanding of reality.

2. Since their claims have no empirical counterparts in real life they start relying on the (unfalsifiable) academic field of philosophy to find justifications for their absurdities. (Whether its gender existentialism in case of trannies or TAG in case of the religious)

Its not even a surprise that not one but two philosophy left-ubers turned trannies. Heck I would say trannies have a better standing than christians since they don't make metaphysical claims at all

>>20768414
Cont.

This is not to mention that even if an atheist did adhered to moral relativism and was "intellectually indistinguishable from trannies" in that regard, that would still be a valid refutal of TAG. But of course christians can only cope about it just like they did when another atheist anon refuted TAG right here on the grounds that it is a loaded premise.

This is not to mention the leap of logic from "universal immaterials exist" to "only a God can account for it" to "that God is christian" to "The Bible is true". Sheer dishonesty and ingenuity masking itself as a " rational" argument

>>20767744
>But after doing some serious thinking about predestination vs. free will I am beginning to think St. Augustine and Calvin are more biblical than the free will crowd.

>“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of predestination, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”
Catholic Catechism, paragraph 600

Many think that God’s infallible knowledge of our future is incompatible with our free will. How can we be truly free if God infallibly knows our choices? It would seem that if our choices were really indeterminate (the choice of A or B is open to me), then God couldn’t have infallible knowledge of which option we would choose. But God can’t be fallible in his knowledge. Therefore, it would seem we are not free to choose.

The contradiction is only apparent. God does not know our future *as* future. He knows our future actions in all their actuality/being (including their temporal modes of existence) in their presentiality. In other words, God knows our future actions as I know Socrates is sitting before me. My knowledge of Socrates sitting before me is infallible, and yet Socrates is not determined to be sitting. He is still free to sit or stand.

>>20768414
>>20768479
YWNBAW