/lit/ - Literature

How do I convey a character's goal through my writing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HOdHEeosc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4on26mKakgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQygKqJVFXg

Here are the OP links I broke. Apologies.

>>20754662
That's a really basic question.
Maybe you're getting ahead of yourself.
Do you have a body of short stories you've written where you've practiced basic writing concepts?
Have you read books with characters that have goals and tried to glean how it was conveyed?
You may want to start there.

>>20754662
by conveying his plight

Speaking as a quote-unquote /lit/ author I just want to say it's not necessary for us to shill up every /wg/ with our stuff. Let's keep this one to the craft.

I've been hesitant to post my writing here. Not because it would get torn apart. I know it absolutely would, and I accept that. No, it's more that I'm worried that if I ever do get around to self-publishing my work, people will recognize me from here. Plus, I don't think my subject matter would be to the tastes of people on /lit/.

>>20754762
Nor is it necessary to spew a bunch of seething schizo samefagging pseud nonsense.
Let's see how many of us are capable of humaning.
And if you're not...have the self-respect and self-awareness to sit this one out.

I posted my writing and people just said it sucked.

It's been about 2 weeks since I've started working on my novel in earnest. I've finished chapter one and wrote about 5,500 words so far. It's been getting a little easier than when I started, but I've only got a week left to dedicate to it before I gotta get back to work. I just know my already slow progress is gonna grind to a halt when that happens. Hopefully, I can get one more chapter down before then. How do you cope with not having the time you need to work on your shit, bros?

>>20754797
Well people say Tao Lin is "from here" and without getting into the nuances of that since that was before I moved from /x/ to /lit/, I've seen Taipei on book-tuber shelves and no one cares one iota. Likewise your association with /lit/ could be faint one day. So don't worry about one anyone thinks, just write your stories but don't forget your roots.

So, judging by some discussion I saw here recently, getting an editor seems to be considered not a very smart choice. The tips I've always seen said you should get all kinds of editors, at least for your first novel. Developmental editors, line editors, copy editors, proofreaders, the whole suite, asking hundreds of dollars apiece. Of course, a site trying to sell you editing services would say that, though. Is it all a scam, or is it just not worth the money?

>>20754857
I posted a sample and got ignored.

>>20754762
>typing quote-unquote instead of just using, well, quotes
What the fuck is this
Why are you writing as if you're speaking

>>20754900
>developmental editors
This is for people that cannot read or write, never applied themselves in designing a story. Applying even rudimentary advice from Brando Sando is good enough to overcome this unless you are writing litfic. If you're doing historical fiction or non-fiction it might make more sense because there are editors that specialize in certain periods. These guys are the most expensive and the least necessary for someone starting out, in my opinion. Better to learn that stuff yourself.
>copy editors
Those guys will either bring out your style or polish it, depending on how well you've edited before you bring it to them. Twice the price of a proofreader.
>proofreaders
They remove all the little mistakes that drive people crazy, keeps readers focused and if you are querying without a polished portfolio and an agent/editor sees little mistakes frequently that manuscript's not gonna make it.
>is it all a scam?
If you aren't confident that you can make the money back or that you couldn't afford to spend that money, I wouldn't spend it. I wouldn't work with an editor unless he had a good portfolio of successfully edited works. However, editing can make good lasting impressions for a book, more than you think. A good editor can help make a mediocre writer look smart.

>>20754926
Well, the use of direct quotation marks is how an idiot depicts sarcasm.

>>20754797
Your writing isn't going to get torn apart. If it's like 90% of the stuff that gets posted here, the reader's eye will immediately glaze over with boredom and then they'll struggle to think up some half-hearted criticism before instead deciding to go do something else.

>>20754876
think about what you're going to write at work
write a couple hundred words a night

>>20754937
You know what that reminds me of? When people write "no pun intended." Yes if you were speaking and you caught the unintended pun then I forgive you but you wrote all that out, saw the pun, wrote that you noticed the pun and have the audacity to claim you didn't intend it. Remove the pun or don't even mention that you noticed it. It's as clumsy and myopic as redditors who put /s to be crystal clear of their sarcasm because they're too afraid of someone thinking they weren't being sarcastic. Isn't part of the fun of sarcasm having the chance to poke fun at people who get roped in by it?

>>20754625
Should I start the story with a character that explains the universe but will never be seem again, a side character that explains the main conflict and who the MC is, or just a normal day in MC's life explaining the world as time progresses?

>>20754960
Cool thoughts, but I didn't write "no pun intended" I wrote quote-unquote. I would like you to note the direct usage of quotations in this post, for their intended effect, which is to demonstrate that I am literally, actually, "quoting" someone else. Now note the second usage of quotation marks, which is closer to the meaning intended in my first post, except instead of being sarcastic it just vaguely emphasizes a word for unclear personal reasons. Whereas had I written quote-unquote prior to the "quoting" "quote" you would know that I was indicating sarcasm, which still wouldn't have made any sense but my point stands.

>>20754998
I wasn't coming down on you, I just meant it reminded me of it. Quote-unquote I get, it's a style choice.

>>20754996
you can have two characters talking. in their dialogue they do some exposition
if the story is first person, you can have your character think about it
spread out your exposition over the first act, don't do it all at once.

As surely as Jerusalem is the navel of the world is this narrative true. It is a record of events as transpired in the environs of Escargot abbey in the Year of our Lord 1119, occurring in the most part between the week before midsummer and harvest. May God have mercy on our souls and the souls of those who find it, if any do. Carry salt with you always and remember the lesson of the tortoise and the hare lest your days end before their allotted time.
The matter concerns as beast of unnatural make, one never before attested to in bestiaries known to any in the abbey, and these being learned men it is unlikely such recordings can be found elsewhere in Christendom either, nor among the Greek or Roman pagans or even the Muslims, in so far as their writings are known to us. This beast neither walks on four legs as do wolves and bears and lions, nor does it have poison fangs as snakes do or wings as the mosquito or fly. The beast in its natural state is a snail, having the full characteristics of a snail as recognized by anyone who has ever laid eyes on one, that is the shell with its spiral shape inside of which the creature can bodily hide itself in full, eyestalks as can retract and protract, a slimy mucus which is secreted as to allow the body to move and a lack of any bones save those which are recognized as teeth of which there are many in the jawless mouth much like eels.
The beast was at first thought to be an ordinary snail, and though these sometimes made nuisance of themselves in the garden or the cabbage paths they were not accounted a great threat either to foodstuff or to the wellbeing of men, and it was not unknown that monks should cook snails on Friday to supplement their meals when no meat was allowed and this was not forbidden by any law or canon or tradition, hallelujah!
A sound was reported in the garden as sounded like men speaking, but no men were found, and the sound was exceedingly quiet, like a whisper. Ghosts in broad daylight were unusual but exorcisms were performed when enough brothers had heard the sounds and this put minds at ease but to no avail for the sounds continued still.
Brother Olivier claimed the sound came from a snail and he brought this be inspected indoors, in the room where also was kept an injured wagtail as was being nursed to health.
Here then were heard the whispers from the snail, and then after it mimicked also the song of the wagtail upon hearing it, and also the gasps of the brothers upon witnessing this, and thus was it dubbed The Mimic Snail and with that beast is this record concerned.

I live next to a park.
Hearing the mothers playing with their children every morning is an interesting feeling

>>20754996
If your world has some kind of life-threatening force, you could go for a prologue with a disposable character who explores the world before dying. Don' get us too attached to them, We need to care about MC. You could also start with MC and take things smoothly

>>20754933
I'm not confident I'll make the money back, at least not with my first book. However, I do have some money to invest into my writing hobby if I think it'll actually benefit me.

Sounds like I don't need a developmental editor. I was doubting them from the very beginning. I already knew where I wanted the story to go, why would I go back and make major structural changes unless something was very wrong, and surely I'd notice that myself. I might get a copy editor for my first book at least, if only because I'm not 100% confident in my own style yet. Proofreader sounds like a yes too. Even if I go the self-publishing route, I'd hate to have a stupid typo somewhere in there, making me look stupid in front my potential readers.

>>20755097
if you sell your book to a trad publisher
the editor they give you is a developmental editor
he, or more likely she these days, will tell you to rewrite chapters, move chapters around, delete characters, and on and on. their goal is to make the book salable.
unfortunately, in self publishing, there's a lot of developmental editors who are running a scam. they don't know what they're doing.

>>20755110
I don't think I could make it in traditional publishing, and I'm not sure I'd even want someone rewriting my story to such an extent. Feels like at some point it wouldn't even be my work any more. I'd just be the author of someone else's ideas.

>>20755072
Before you know it, it will become a recurring theme in your writing.

>>20754996
The latter. I hate exposition dumps at the beginning of a book. Also, ideally, you want the first character you introduce to the reader to be your protagonist.

>>20755072
I live next to a church and on the other side is a mansion shrouded by trees. It's extremely quiet here, good for writing.

>>20754857
>>20754908
Maybe it got ignored because it sucked.
The vast majority of the writing I see posted on here looks like someone's first effort, and boils down to meaningless purple prose.
So if that's all you posted...you have your answer.
It takes a lot more to write than just turning out a purple paragraph.

>>20755034
This is good and I like it

>>20754996
Ugh. See? This is what I'm talking about here >>20755152 .
A lore dump is just the writer's way of saying they don't know how to reveal the lore in any interesting way, and that they're not a writer so much as a worldbuilder.
Figure out how to structure your story, and prose, so that these details are revealed organically, instead of just dumped.

>>20755158
Thanks. Thinking of turning it into a short story after I finish my current novel manuscript.

>>20755152
Or it just got lost in the Gardner shitposting

>>20754900
>Of course, a site trying to sell you editing services would say that, though
bingo
but you, personally, will need to spend roughly as much time editing as you did drafting. and then you'll want people to read your work and give critique.

>>20754667
Yeah but writing "I want to have this apple" doesn't seem like good writing.

>>20754671
wdym

>>20755327
You want to have this apple.
Because you're hungry, but also you like apples.
You like apples because you've eaten them since childhood.
But you can't have this apple because it's in a tree.
So you have to climb the tree
Because you want this apple

1400 subscribers on sooob stock now.
Am professional, very much troost now goyim.
Ask me anything.

>>20755327
Well, sure. So you don't come right out and have the character announce their goals.
Instead, maybe you show the character trying to live life, but subtly messing it up. Daydreaming, not doing what they're supposed to do, not being where they're supposed to be, and so on.
Going home from work, they don't do their errands or go straight home, but instead go by a "pick your own" apple orchard, where he spends entirely too much time, and rejects most apples, only keeping a handful.
He goes so far as to pick apples for other people and give them filled baskets, for which they're grateful.
As his basket is rung up by the farmer, he asks why he picked so few apples.
The character, sporting a thousand-mile stare, says he has his reasons.
The farmer shrugs and lets it go.
At home, his wife realizes he's been picking apples again, and demands to know what's behind his obsession.
He's evasive, and says she'll never understand.
She huffs that she's going out with her friends, and not to wait up.
He stays home, examining each apple closely, even caressing them.

Your story doesn't have to be like this, but it has to be a story.
There's a huge difference between having ideas and telling a story.

>>20755376
How long do you last playing jumprope?

>>20755388
Jumprope 8 minutes before everytime I am practik box friend. Very winded, but calf strong like bull.

Went back and reworked on my opening

Funny to think every soob stock post makes me 56 doll hairs when you break down the income vs posts.

>>20755388
Don't feed the obvious troll.

>>20755420
He think troll because I make it. Sad, many such cases of crab in bucket!

>>20755411
Occasionally someone's luggage would wash up on the beach...
>...
why the ellipses? cut it.

>>20755395
Aren't you embarrassed by your lack of emotional and social development?
Your posts have nothing to do with /lit/, /wg/, or anything resembling them.
I feel embarrassed for you.

>>20755454
My posts very important for you to think about who make it.
Even retard like Jake Paul make it. Will you?>>20755454

>>20754801
>Nor is it necessary to spew a bunch of seething schizo samefagging pseud nonsense.
This. Gardner isn't welcome here.

I've unironically started putting more em dashes into my work since seeing this dumb meme.

>>20755534
He appears to currently be LARPing as Andy Kaufman's "foreign man".
>>20755376
>>20755395
>>20755416
>>20755459
I'm embarrassed on his behalf.

>>20755566
The em dash is my favorite punctuation mark. I use it more than the semicolon. I need to start using the colon more often.

>>20755566
After reading East of Eden my mind almost exploded. That nigga Steinbeck loved emdashes.

>>20755411
Not bad, the opening line contains familiar details which are used in an unfamiliar way, creating the much-needed sense of conflict which is absent from almost everything which gets posted in these threads. The actual set-up (what's in the bag?) is sufficient to generate interest and keep someone reading.

Other than that, it's stale. The imagery is good, but the way it is presented is hollow and lacking immersion. For instance, you could replace the word 'shelter' with a dozen other words which would better convey the image you have in mind, and since its first person POV, the words you choose could also be conveying the narrator's attitude about his situation. Hut, shack, tent. I don't know exactly what you're trying to get across, but this same process could be applied to anything. The anonymous 'carry-on' luggage could instead be a duffel bag, and our narrator might spend the drag back to his shelter contemplating the weight and shape of the bag and trying to guess the contents.

where do you find the motivation to write regularly when you also work a full-time job?
I've been working on a novel for basically the past year and I'm barely at 48 pages. I have plenty of ideas for scenes I want to write and the direction I want to take the story in, but most days I just feel too fucking tired to write any of it down. I have to be in the right ""mood"" and if I'm not my mind just goes blank when I try to write.

>>20755620
This is what makes me want to switch to a creative writing degree. At least Ill be able to crank out stories full time. At the moment, I am dreading continuing my degree in nursing. I don't think I can write part time working full time as a nurse, my soul will be crushed. I meet so many people studying a creative degree and I envy them because I would love to do something creative full time, but instead I fell for the STEM meme. I can tolerate nursing but I dread it.

>>20755620
even if you are writing full time your mind has to be in the right mood.

best thing you can do for yourself is to get up early at an ungodly hour and do all your writing before you start your work day

>>20755620
>but most days I just feel too fucking tired to write any of it down. I have to be in the right ""mood"" and if I'm not my mind just goes blank when I try to write.
You have a mindset problem. What do you do when you get off of work? Is your work space distracting? Do you have a tendency to surf the internet?
I used to spend hours clicking through YouTube. What I did to fix it was I started taking a book to the dinner table instead of my laptop. I even left my phone in my room so I wouldn't be tempted to browse 4chan; that was the biggest hurdle.
At night, after I've done all the necessary body machine maintenance, I put my phone on my bed behind me and I open the page. If I'm not in the right mood, I find music and read through what I wrote recently. Getting the consistency every day, forcing your routine to be different, is what gets rid of that "I'm too tired to write" mindset. Now when I go to bed without writing I feel like I didn't shower. It feels wrong and uncomfortable.
Working full time, you can 100% find room in your schedule to write.

>>20755620
I jot down observations and notes on a notepad at work and also read at work. Not being in the right mood for writing isnt much an excuse for me now. I either tackle a writing prompt, practice some technique, or write stream of consciousness until I'm comfortable writing. There's nothing wrong with writing something that won't see the light of day, sometimes you have to write that first.

>>20753493
The writing gets more schizo when the narrator snaps, but he always talks in a cringy way because he is a wannabe poet faggot. The novella is only 19k words long.

>>20754625
No one in /wg/ writes. Shut up and make me a Sangewich, bitch.

it's funny how english teachers in middle and high school always stress the importance of consistent formatting and punctuation use; "a paragraph is 3-5 sentences"; "don't start sentences with xyz"; "use commas instead of parenthesis" -- as if it's more important than the contents of the writing itself. but then you start reading real quality literature as an adult and realize that none of that fanciful crap matters in the least, and many respectable authors don't bother adhering to any sort of standard save their own.

>>20755566
Based

>>20755576
Same. I tend to not use many semicolons since my sentences are often long, probably a sign I should reign it in a bit as I also use a lot of appositives.

>>20755679
This is good advice and I'd just add for the anon asking - try listening to writing writing craft podcasts when you are doing chores/working, I find it helps me subconsciously stay in a creative mindspace (and you will pick up some good tips). Also set reasonable weekly goals rather than daily wordcount. I've shared here before that I try to do a chapter per week but you could start with a target of a chapter every 2 weeks.

>>20755711

i think high school english teachers are mostly teaching towards essay writing like the type of essays people who take standardized tests write.
not a lot of people will go on to write literature but a lot of them will have to write essays.

I have one major problem in writing my fantasy novel. I live in a mostly sandy country with little fields on the edges of its river. So I'm incapable of imagining travelling through meadows and hills etc so i can't put it in words. any guides on writing things like that?

Any feedback on this experiment with vers libre?

How good at last am I, who am holier than thou?
I who have tumbled from bottom to top,
And impressed myself with a quick stop: Wow!
Thorn-drawn droplets drip as I wipe off my brow.

And if I’ve made youthful mistakes,
If I’ve played the rake, for goodness’ sake,
(Don’t do a double take, my dear!)
That was all one path to lead me here.

Because I’ve been through fire that refines,
(Slick metaphor for the burdened mind!)
Only to find there in agonized crawl
(They said of me: how he burns and shines!)
That my sin was nothing, nothing at all.

And how better to prove my worth for sure
Than to confess to a whore—yes, I said it,
And I don’t feel shame or regret it,
Though I’ll hide my notes under the floor.
(They’ll say: how much meaning lies embedded!
But better they forget it.)

In the Prospekts’ icy ocean, I was blessed
With the gift of navigation.
Though I made my famous divagations,
Oh, forget the rest!
My lips were not too frozen to confess.

Like so I’ve asked for absolution;
I’ve taken all the proper steps;
I’ve paid off my outstanding debts;
Be grateful for my contribution!
Time you all dropped and did your reps.

And if the ax I swung at another still stabs me,
Deep within, preserved just as when I first found it,
(How this chilling imagery of mine just grabs me!)
Leave it in: I’ve healed around it!

And if a lady’s ghost should haunt me,
Taunt me with visions of who bled for my art,
(And hand me a mop: that task that daunts me)
Show her the door: she’s done her part!

And if after centuries have passed
I’m known for how God’s love redeemed me,
For how fleshy man’s love cleaned me,
For what more can the sinner ask?

If I was written in that way,
That way was good, then. (So I pray.)

(Complaint of the Saved Raskolnikov)

>>20755861
There's a lot of bugs...and pollen.

>>20755861
>imagining travelling through meadows and hills
i bet you could find some youtube videos

>>20755686
Fake Sange, stfu and quit being rude for no reason. Wait for someone to act like a shit, ask a dumbass question, make a dumbass statement, or write a shit story. Then you can lay into them guilt free.

I like Sangewhich though. Keep it up, bitch.

>>20755861
Watch lord of the rings faggot.
You think sci-fi writers ever been to space?
It called imagination and it's kind of critical to have one if you want to be a writer.

>>20754662
The way a person would do it by their actions and behaviors. They would talk about them (so a few conversation scenes), formulate a plan (show premeditation, different considerations, maybe choices to be made), take steps/actions towards them (action scenes, the character is doing something to advance his cause, and reach his goal), and further elucidating subsequent aspects of the goal such as consequences, and impacts that may arise, and influence the character's life.
It's a healthy balance of talking about it, formulating intent, desire, ambition, taking action, suffering consequences, even implied or projected ones such as ''if you do this...then this will happen''.
Listen to the song Funky Town by Lipps Inc. It's a song that talks about having a goal, and the process of achieving it.

How likely is it that my TV Show script idea will be stolen if I post about it on the internet? I haven't seen anything with this particular concept yet and I'm afraid to sort of blow the whistle on myself...
But at the same time, I'm working alone and need to get some feedback at some point. What can I do?

>>20755977
Big Fat Liar is an exception to the common fear. By the time they turn it into a big budget show, you'll have already turned it into a book or forgotten about the idea. Ideas are a diamond dozen anyways.

>>20755988
Okay. I get that. I'm talking about selling only a TV show, and getting paid myself. I want to be the one to sell it. It hasn't been done before, and it could be big.


>a diamond dozen
it's a dime a dozen, ie you could get a dozen for only a dime now.

>>20756004
>it's a dime a dozen, ie you could get a dozen for only a dime now.
I could care less

>>20755861
>travelling through meadows and hills
lol gay. make your book more interesting than that, please

>>20756004
>being this pedantic
it's a doggie dog world out there

I've given storyboarding a shot for my latest little practice. It's fun

>>20756004
Okay. Ideas are still not worth the paper they're printed on. You could write the greatest idea in the history of history, plaster it all over the internet, and I guarantee you nobody is going to steal it.

>>20756015
people in medieval times had to travel through meadows and hills though

>>20756037
kino

I read that if you have a complex idea you should keep the writing simple but if it's a simple idea you should use sarcasm or hyperbole to enhance it. How do I know if my idea is simple or complex?

Reading Gordon Lish's extremely brutal edit/rewrite of this Raymond Carver story was funny and thought-provoking. I recommend it to everyone in the thread.

public.wsu.edu/~bryanfry/Beginners%20Edited.pdf

Broke a multiple-month dry streak today guys.

Editing sucks the soul from the writing process. Don't do it. Just keep drafting.

>>20756113
if you're going into writing fixated on platitudes like this, you're already doing it wrong

>>20756113
>I read—
Read this:
Go write. Nothing else matters.

>>20756113
just write one decent story before you die

>>20756113
Just fucking write.
>How do I know if my idea is simple or complex?
You're going to have to explain that a little more, bitch.

>>20754625
i have a this desire to join the film academy in my country and join the scenario course. You have to sumbit 4 works of writing for various purposes. Is this thread somewhere i can post my first work (the subject of a feature film) and get feedback on it?

>>20756150
Editing is the easy part for me. I have tons of words to read and tweak. It's redrafting and writing new material that takes a concentrated effort on my part.

>>20756150
>>20756150
That's because you're doing it wrong, retard. You're supposed to draft till you get sick of it. Then you can overcome the dry streak by going back in smooth and easy, just editing what you wrote. Takes less work, to just go back in a few weeks later, with a fresh mind, and just edit.
Next thing you know, you will get new ideas, and want to start making new grounds. And onto the next cycle.

>>20756187
Wipe the poop from your mouth before speaking, snake

Do you guys get most of your ideas from real life or from other works of fiction?

>>20756150
Editing is hard because I always hate everything I write after abandoning it for some days. I just want to trash everything.
>>20756239
Both.

>>20756239
id say both but definetly leaning to things real life

>>20756197
Of course dude, go for it.

>>20755534
False. Gardner is always welcome here.

>>20756239
I'm very rarely able to trace an idea back to where it came from. They just sort of germinate and normally when I'm walking on the treadmill or standing in the shower they'll pop up in my head. I do recognize the importance of consuming thoughtful books or movies or whatever in this process, though.

>>20756261
I don’t see why not. He’s just yet another writer. I don’t think there’s even any proof he’s been posting here.

>>20756239
Both, I think a lot about the nature and truths of the world and pursue fiction that deals with that too.

>>20756239
Plot mostly comes from other fiction, but the details of any given scene are usually pulled from real life.

>>20756197
>>20756259
thanks man

for anyone curious the academy wants it's applicants to sumbit:
A scenario of 5 -20 pages
The subject for a feauture film with reason for wanting to make and point of view for writing (no more then 500 words)
The subject for a tv series with the same requirments as above
idea for a short film (no more then 20 lines of text)

>>20756299
honestly more concered about my structuring and explaining myself (which i really suck at)

>>20756037
If you can draw that well, do a web comic.
I WISH I could draw that well.

>>20756279
>>20756261
Hi F.

>>20756214
No. Drafting and editing are two completely different processes for me. Drafting is a dream-state. Editing is the equivalent of Aristotle coming down into the city.

>>20756037
unironically, this is filled with soul. I can tell you had fun drawing this by looking at the result

>>20756299
18,000 tons of silver?
That would be just over 1% of all the silver that's known to exist in our time.
Sounds like a lot.

>>20756479
no it's even crazier: The Chinese payed in gold and alliance (just to fuck with them if anything) added a 4% rising interest rate. So by the time the full reperations had been paid it was 37.000 tonnes paid

>>20756299
Your first sentence in reason has a weird hanging clause, "that while it is a very unique conflict:". I think if I understood the character motivations more I may be interested, but the presentation doesn't tell me why I should care about the characters. I get that neither of them choose to come into the war, but I don't get a sense of why these two perspectives matter, what they value, etc., aside from ways of telling the story. And I know you have limited space, so perhaps I'm nitpicking.

>>20756299
As someone who has basically zero knowledge of the Boxer Rebellion, I think you structured the general historical arc of the war well. That said, if I were the admissions officer of a film school, I might wonder why this would make a good film rather than a good history book. The two characters seem more like cameramen who are there to observe the events than individuals who also have their own personal stories and responses. Maybe you could throw in a couple of sentences to emphasize that aspect.

If you're concerned about explaining yourself, I also think you could give a little bit more of an explanation about why you think the war was uniquely important. You mention the facts about international involvement, but for a lot of people those facts won't mean much. I'm thinking of something like, 'Here, at the very start of the modern era, was the first truly global war. And all across the globe, ordinary people would become drawn into its terrible vortex.' That's corny, but hopefully you get the kind of thing I mean.

Also, (I hope this useful and not condescending) I have two English language tips: (1) a colon would be better than a semi-colon after 'an uprising against foreign presence and influence begins' and 'two men take part'; and (2) 'that while it is a very unique conflict' would normally be expressed as 'even though it is very unique conflict' or 'despite it being a very unique conflict'.

He was even deeper in this cave, when he saw something completely frightening, it was a child's body, it appeared to be around 4 years old, she was covered in burns, her whole body was covered in blood and wounds, her eyes were closed, and her mouth moved as if she wanted to scream, but the voice did not come out, this child took a few steps towards the man who was entering that cave, but after a few steps, she fell to the ground, without strength.

The man came closer to the child, but there was nothing he could do, she was completely covered in wounds, blood, and it looked like her skin had already been ripped off by the heat.

He then ran towards where the voices were coming from, to see if he could find someone to help him, and after running a little, he came to what appeared to be a large hall inside the cave, there were some people in the distance, talking something in a voice. high, and there was a huge fire in the middle of the hall, and the voices he heard were coming from the fire, no one seemed to see him in that hall, he then approached the fire, and saw something that made him let out an anguished cry, there were dozens of children inside that fire.

Their faces were transfigured, their eyes were already completely burned, their voices seemed to be the grunts of animals, the pain was so much that they were ripping off their own skins, the scream of these children was deafening, the smell of their burning flesh was everywhere, that man could smell it completely, because his senses were already awake, after what he experienced in his room, that smell was in his whole being, the image of children burning and ripping their skins off, stuck in his eyes, he felt everything, as he had never felt anything before, it felt like he was the fire, he was the children, he was the people around saying something aloud to themselves, he was the hall, the cave, he felt like he was all of that, and everything was getting more intense, he felt his skin peeling off, the heat of the embers, everything was choking him, and when it felt like the world would fall under this man's head, he cried out.

He was now waking up, he was lying in his bed, with one of his wives by his side, but the panic he felt during the dream was still present in him, his breathing was failing, and this made the wife who was next to him wake up.

>>20756507
Yikes...I thought it was a typo. TIL.

>>20756279
He doesn’t. I know F Gardner on discord and he never even talks about his books. He mostly just talks about retarded conspiracy theories and pokemon.

>>20756531
it is in part the limited space but also me needing to flesh these characters out like >>20756545
says. Bascially i'm seeing batyr being an anti-forgein son of a farmer who sees himself as a defender of his ancient civilization against forgein invasion and corruption. Daniel is stationed in China as a marine, wishing to be in an exotic place, and now sees christians and Europeans being killed by a people he believes to be lesser then him. He is the spreader and defender of his civilization against barbarians who reject it.

They are both kind of right (something you'll notice when reading history) and commit atrocities for the sake of those civilizations; considering themselves rightious in their actions, are treated as heroes by their people while viewing the other as savages who must be punished. This is actually why I chose their names: Daniel means "God is my judge" and Batyr "hero".

I really believe if i had 1000 words to work with, I could give them more character, but that just attests to how new I am at this.

Also the uique conflict bit is translated from my own language by DeepL, it has the same meaning there as >>20756545
points out it should have in English.

>>20756641
>inb4 unique

You guys need to publish short books, not long books.
Trust me this is wasted effort for a first book.
Eyes first you need eyes on you.

>>20756677
short or long doesn't change my chances of getting published so I'm just going to write until carpal tunnel sets in

You guys write by hand, right?

I didn't write anything today, but I did change all of my chapter numbers to roman numerals and it sincerely made me feel like a real, proper writer

>>20756677
It's true that it's easier to publish shorter stories, but the market is geared towards novels. Shorts are better for building your reputation with professionals and literati.

>>20756683
>doesn’t change chances
>write 10 books vs 2 books
5x the books 5x the chances of getting a title accepted
Sorry buddy it actually does.
All things the same quality wise, writing shorter books is superior for a starting author.

>>20756376
I got here by drawing ever more complex stick figures. You can start from there, too.
I've dabbled in comics before, and I don't have what it takes to illustrate a story with consistent illustrations that I feel are competitive. However, stuff like this is something I could apply, and have applied into the design of my stories in the past - an only-so-slightly visible drollery behind the text

>>20756407
It doesn't have everything, but in theory this could be a tool adyacent to writing down the barebones content of a chapter. It's also just a visual log for details I wanna hold on to

>>20756600
>I know F Gardner on discord
How about we change /wg/ to
/The Frank Gardner School of Creative Writing/?

>>20756704
Vim via a urxvt terminal emulator on Arch Linux. I like working on a few paragraphs, saving them as a text file, then continuing in a new file, often jumping to a new scene or idea. Gives the unconstrained sense of starting a small, new project each time. And when returning to the other fragments they often feel fresh and surprising. The downside is that it can take a long time to slowly gather things into a whole.

>>20756733
>Vim via a urxvt terminal emulator on Arch Linux
I find it easier to understand philosophical concepts expressed in abstract terms, rather than this.

>>20756721
Lol. The next thread should unironically have that theme.

>>20756570
"he came to what appeared to be a large hall inside the cave, there were some people in the distance,"
Considering it's a cave, maybe vault would be a better name for the concavity, unless it's definetly man-made. You could also describe the people as speaking near the opposite end of the room.

I think you should swap some of those commas for periods.

The last big paragraph feels like its described with details specific to erotic scenarios... I don't think that's the purpose of that paragraph.
As usual, try not to use the same word too frequently. Try swapping the second "wife"with "woman" at the end

>>20756570
Describe wife

>>20756721
Based

Now that I finished rereading Great Gatsby I can start writing this evening. That novel actually is pretty good and noted the writing I learned from it.

>>20756677
So many people will ignore this.
This is the number one problem with new authors.

>>20755534
My boyfriend is always welcome here =)

>How do you write women so well?
>I think of a man. Then I take away reason and accountability

What are some sources to learn to write women better?
I wanted to check out TV tropes page (yeah, I know) but it was written by some blue-haired feminist and basically boils down to
>men and women are literally the same chud, just randomly distribute sexes amongst your characters and you're done
And that just won't do.

Idk where to look for better advice though.

My current collection of tidbits:
(pastebin thought it was sexist)
https://controlc.com/4db17316

>>20756887
These don't read as tips about writing women as much as your redpill folder

>>20756904
Yeah they're just sayings I've collected, that's why I'm looking for more... how do I say this. Specialized tips for dummy writers on how to convey femininity through text.
Some of them are a lot more extreme in their redpillness, I didn't include those. They breach from "men and women are different, let's find out how" straight into "women are worse and not humans and are alien creatures and I loathe them because they can't think or love or create only destroy" etc.

>>20756677
How short? Series? And are you speaking from experience?

My current novel is longer and far along but I have an idea of self pubbing a short novella (40kish) sci-fi series after this (Flashman-esque in a setting inspired by the old game Freelancer) but I heard shorter books don't sell well from some dickhead on the internet so am still mulling it.

>>20756915
I don't see how " women are worse and not humans and are alien creatures and I loathe them because they can't think or love or create only destro " can lead you to write women as anything other than antagonists

>>20756887
here is my fool-proof method:
men say complex things and reflect on them in simple ways
women say simple things and reflect on them in complex ways

>>20756934
Yeah I don't agree with those thoughts, although I saved some of that rhetoric to potentially use as character's worldview.
A character in-universe in story would loathe women and think of them as inferior, etc

>>20756938
Interesting.
I do know that women tend to mean more/different things compared to what is actually said. Heck, I know that from experience!

>>20756944
>I do know that women tend to mean more/different things compared to what is actually said. Heck, I know that from experience!
from this principle, you derive the fundamental dynamic: men unable to see the complexity behind a woman's words and women unable to see the simplicity behind a man's words.

With property begins the mission of women. The government of the household, this completely ideal thing that is meant to be ridiculed, is the empire of women, the monument of the family. Abolish the household, that cornerstone of the home, center of attraction for the spouses, and there will be no family.

Feminism liberated women from the natural dignity of their sex and forced them into being inferior men
>>20756887

Women... how does one capture the heart of these mysterious beings?

Rape.

>>20756958
>>20756938
>>20756944
What about someone who says complex things and means complex things and who says simple things and means simple things? In my books, the only one who does that is a schizophrenic woman, which is based on a schizophrenic woman I knew.

>>20756887
Reading female characters by female authors is a good way to pick up on it, I always recommend Eudora Welty's short stories but it may be better to look in your genre if there is one. I like these tips on writing men and women from Writer's Digest. It's presented as things you can adjust from your default behavior:
https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/writing-gender-specific-dialogue
>Check for advice: women tend to sympathize rather than give advice
>Check for bragging: women tend to self-deprecate rather than brag
>Check for aggressiveness: women tend to be indirect rather than direct
>Check for details: women notice style
>Check for emotions: women tend to be expressive but hesitate to express anger
>Check for obliviousness: women tend to pay attention to non-verbal language and maintain eye contact
As for other social expectations and behavior of women to women and women to men, that's something else.

>>20756994
Thanks anon

>>20756992
>What about someone who says complex things and means complex things and who says simple things and means simple things?
The former is an author self-insert and the latter is a mean-spirited caricature.
Just kidding, sort of.

>>20757005
Author self-inserts are hilariously autistic.

>>20757033
FACT. F Gardner is a homosexual.

>>20756677
If you mean new authors...sure.
They need to practice writing, and short stories are a great way to do that.

>>20756299
made what changes i could and trimmed fat wherever i saw it. Feedback?

>>20756994
Robin Hobbe's "Ship of Magic" has 4 amazing women in it.
1. a grandmother of the family
2. a career girl type
3. a shrink violet type
4. and a boy crazy 13 year old

And the women are more true to real life. None of them will beat up a man in a fist fight.

>>20756887
I assume you've read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus"?

>>20757148
>inb4 "protect the Empress Dowager and her cousin (the Emperor) as she" should be they instead of she
>also inb4 " a world war for the World Wars" should be before instead of for
>also also inb4 some /his/ tells me that applies to the Seven Years War; my rebutal is that no normie know about either of these conflicts

>>20757148
I hope you tie in the Tongs in America being involved in funding and eventual overthrow of the Qing empire.

>>20757187
as cool as eveything to do with the revolution and the civil war is, it's beyond the scope of one movie my friend. Sorry

>>20757216
But you have to. Because it gives rise to Sun Yat Sen.

>>20756925
You can verify for yourself besides me. Check Amazon short reads.

Anyone here use Scrivener? I've been using 1.9 for Windows for around seven years and I see there's a new version which has a revamped interface. Is there anything actually different about the program? I'm perfectly fine sticking with what I have, but if there is a great new feature I'd be interested in updating.

>>20757152
>4. and a boy crazy 13 year old
I will now read your book.

Going for a Cormac Mccarthy kind of style for my dialogue not sure it's working

>>20757263
That anon spoke with authority on the subject so I presume he has a shred of greater insight than I'd find googling the answer and counting up sales on random new authors

>>20757333
I wouldn't trust a single thing anyone on here says without a second source.

>>20757140
No

>>20757310
Kinda wordy for dialogue. The formatting is secondary, so you can do it in any style you like.

>>20757341
Remember the standards that the journalism field used to have: "If your mother says she loves you, check it out."

>>20756721
>>20756747
>>20756777
>>20756785
>>20757033
>>20757372
No one wants to pay attention to you, Gardner.
You're boring, and so is your "writing".
And after your Giant Schizo Freakout this week...your name is mud.

What’s with the Gardner spam? If anyone knows him let’s hear his thoughts.

>>20757471
>replying to yourself

Fuck off Frank.

>>20757474
No one here knows him and it’s one shitposter spamming trying to mess up his reputation.

>>20755034
good shit

>>20757263
>>20757419
>You guys need to publish short books, not long books!
>What do you mean when you say that?
>don't trust but verify!

I'm just asking for elaboration, but if I don't hear back soon I will assume he was another poser throwing his half caked thoughts out with udder confidence.

>>20755861
watch videos of switzerland

>>20757474
I think Gardner might’ve become more popular because of that interview I see posted here

>>20757488
You did that yourself with your week-long schizo freakout, Gardner.
Things will never be the same for you here.

Are you going to write another book?

I did my best editing my story. It's still shit, but I don't think my edits are making the story better.

Mind if some of you anons take a look at it? I left the comments open.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEwO4B9LTlngU5E2L5h1aZhyb6YiAZ7Ej0jRLU21NdU/edit?usp=sharing

>>20755988
>>20756004
>>20756013
>a diamond dozen
it's a dime a dozen, ie you could get a dozen for only a dime now.

OOOOHHHHHHHH is that why that one Anon's story is called The Diamond Dozen?

>>20756021
>it's a doggie dog world out there
OOOOHHHHHHHHHH Now I get it.

>>20757310
What do you mean by McCarthy style? All you did was remove the punctuation.

>>20757580
Another normie finally sees the light.
And the world becomes a little more pleasantly weird.

>>20757580
They're misnomers that were made e-famous by a very old copypasta. Search both of them together.
>>20757573
>Wing
That is a much easier pen name than Wgon. I would check it out like I did Emily Project but I'm a tight schedule right now.

>Joyce Carole Oates is being dragged through the mud by major media outlets like CNN for tweeting her anecdote about white male debuts not being read by editors
>Penguin Random House (PRH) releases a demographic audit of all book authors they published between 2018 and 2021 to debunk JCO's claim
>audit indicates that 76% of authors are white
>audit indicates, SEPARATELY, that 34% of all authors are male
>ergo, roughly 25% (34% of 76%) are white male authors
>white men are 31% of the U.S. population
>ergo, white male authors are UNDER represented by 20% (25% is 80% of 31%)
>the PRH audit backs JCO's claim
>literary pundits and CNN pretend that the audit states the opposite

clearly, the biggest problem is sexism than racism. major publishers evidently have no problem publishing books written by whites, but moreso have no problem over-publishing women (and trans people)

>>20757591
>>Wing
>That is a much easier pen name than Wgon. I would check it out like I did Emily Project but I'm a tight schedule right now.
Yea, that's why I changed it. It also gives me more legs than /wg/-anon.

Long-time lurker who just started posting, I'd like to share my current WIP and start reading some of the stuff posted in this thread. This is the third time I've posted this in /wg/, so after this I'll take a long break because nobody likes it when people keep spamming their own stuff, and I don't want to overstay my welcome.

I'm aspiring for this story to be what I affectionately refer to as "Literary Fantasy," if such a thing exists. The first two chapters can be found here: https://www.dylandevinewriter.com/book-preview

The cover is slightly misleading, as it makes the book look more like YA when it reads like a hyper-realistic historical novel, even though it's set in a fictional world. The setting is largely based off of late-medieval Norway and ancient Welsh folklore.

I understand well that I'm not entitled to free feedback just because I post something of mine, so I genuinely thank anybody who reads even a line of it for taking the time to do so.

All thoughts and criticism are welcome, don't be afraid to rip it apart.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my stay and start critiquing some of the other writing samples here, since everyone is always posting about how no one ever replies to their writing posts.

In the previous thread, I critiqued maybe three other writing samples, but hardly anyone posted actual writing since it devolved into a shitshow of Gardnerposting. I'll look over as many as I can in the next hour or so.

Cheers.

The Irvine Hotel has PBR on sale, three bucks a can. The bar is surrounded by neon VLT machines and thumb-tacked flyers for fish fries and biker rallies. We split a bucket of short cans for eighteen bucks all-in. The toilet looks like it could give me novel sexually transmitted diseases and the only food available is from a popcorn machine that looks like it was last cleaned by a suffragette. We guzzle down the cheapest beers we’ve ever ordered at a bar; they’re also, not incidentally, the best we’ve ever had.

When we’re finishing up our last cans, a woman comes storming into the bar solo. She’s about mid-thirties wearing leopard print yoga pants and a hot mess of a top bun.

“Make me something strong,” she barks at the bartender. “Wait, is that Cliff in the back? Who’s in the office, is it Cliff? Tell Cliff I want to…” She pauses to burp, clear her throat. “Tell Cliff I want to drink with him.”

“Maybe a glass of water first, Kim?” suggests the bartender.

“Give me a fucking break,” she spits back. “My boyfriend is in jail for touching my daughter. Can you believe that? For touching my baby. I need a real drink.” The bartender shakes his head and slides her a glass of something clear. She takes a sip, sloshes the liquid around the rim of the glass, inspects it closely, then throws it in the bartender’s face, splashing his hair down to the collar of his t-shirt, now stained a darker shade of grey.

“The hell’s a matter with you, Kim? Get the fuck out of here.”

“Don’t be a baby,” she slurs. “It’s water.”

“Get out.”

“You know, I still love him. After all he did, I still love the fucking asshole.”

“Get out!”

“Hey, Cliff.” She hops up onto the bar and wiggles her ass against the counter. “Hey, Cliff, want some of this? Don’t fuckin’ lie to me now, Cliff. I’m done with lies.”

Ben stands up to leave, and I chug the last of my beer, grateful to have paid up front.

The bartender walks out from behind the bar and grabs the woman by the wrist; she promptly shakes the man off of her with a whip of her arm.

“If you don’t get the fuck out here, right now, I’m calling the police,” he shouts.

A bell chime rings: the sound of the door as it shuts behind Ben. I follow his lead, throw my bucket on my woozy head, and get back on my bike. The lady stumbles out of the bar, screaming something unintelligible, as we pull away from the premises. She picks a child-sized bicycle off the ground, laying unlocked, and starts riding away before falling flat on her stomach. She gets back up, tosses it into the middle of the road, then shouts something that I cannot hear because we’re already too far away.

It occurs to me that I’ve never rode my bicycle while day drunk before. Or day buzzed, or day confused. Whatever this state is. Time passes faster than usual, and, before long, sobriety wrests control from the throes of immediate feeling and I return to a bleak state of understanding.

>>20757591
Thank you anon. Much appreciated.

>>20754662
Explore their motivation. Motivation and goal are not the same thing.

The goal is what the character wants to achieve (let's say it's become a millionaire).

The motivation is WHY they want to succeed in that goal (Gatsby wants to be lavishly wealthy to impress Daisy).

To illustrate the character's goal, show their motivation playing out, and show the reader how their motivation affects the way they interact with the world and other people.

>>20757594
>clearly, the biggest problem is sexism than racism. major publishers evidently have no problem publishing books written by whites, but moreso have no problem over-publishing women (and trans people)

The real problem is millennials, but nobody wants to touch that one, so they'll scapegoat everyone else but them. Both sides do it. No one wants to admit millennials who peaked in high school killed literature. Accept the blackpill, anons.

>>20757608
for context, this is part of a novel about a cross-country bicycle tour I did with a friend. This scene takes place in a tavern on the side of the highway in rural Alberta (pic rel). It's a bildungsroman that explores, primarily, masculinity and mental health in our atomized and digitally alienated youth landscape. This dialogue is still very rough.

It's a day by day account of our journey across the country, and it explores my own mental health progression (and regression) along the way. I'm hoping to make it a Gen Z/Millennial spin on Zen and the Art, but less Eastern philosophy and more a commentary on finding ways to adopt a pro-social worldview amid an increasingly desolate world. It's about finding purpose in the continuing, and finding material ways to overcome immaterial struggle. It’s about trying to express the inexpressable; the only alternative to wallowly helplessly in shame and repression, giving in to despair and allowing alienation and suffering to turn you spiritless. How the physical mirrors the mental - for instance, the winding undulations of the road represent various fluxuations in my state of mind (e.g., by virtue of optical illusion, hills appear far steeper from afar than when you're actually surmounting them; when riding down the highway in heavy fog, the road always appears to be straight - you aren't aware that you're turning until you've already turned and you view your path retrospectively). I'm also playing with the prose style. The novel starts off staccato with short sentences and fragments to represent my anxiety and closed sense of self, gradually becoming more relaxed, protracted, and expressive through stretched and elongated sentences as time passes and I open myself to the world and how I feel and perceive it to both my riding partner and to the reader The ultimate goal of this novel is to help people who need it; to help the reader not hate him or herself, and to help them find reasons to keep going.

>>20755034
I wasn't expecting iFunny lore fanfiction to make it here, let alone a piece this good. https://ifunny.co/video/me-at-the-end-of-time-realizing-the-snail-and-B1mmtUB19

>>20754996
No, for the love of God, no. Don't do that. Another anon suggested using dialogue for the exposition dump, but that's only marginally better. Start with an actual scene playing out, preferably with the main character, and find a way to organically weave the conflict into the story rather than having a disposable exposition character flat-out tell the audience everything.

>>20754996
Don't listen to >>20755092, this is terrible advice.

>>20755149
Sounds comfy, anon

Knowing how to write good characters is magic, I'm certain of it. I'm not a talented writer and I feel like I might be socially autistic, so I spend a lot of time analyzing what makes characters work and resonate with people, and whenever I feel like I'm close to discovering the truth, I find something that completely throws a wrench into any line of reasoning I might've came up with.

I find the pattern overlap between the characters I personally like and characters that are well liked generally, and then I find characters loved much more than that, which don't have ANY of the features I've found, and don't appeal to me at all.

>>20757594
I also fail to see how historical data is supposed to counter claims about the current state of things, if white male writers started being shut out this year, data from 2019 is irrelevant.

>>20755411
Hey, I remember your earlier version of this sample from a previous /wg/ thread.

The prose has gotten better this time around, but some of the other anons are on-point about the overall staleness.

To clarify, this is not to suggest that every story has to be loaded with action or drama the very moment the book starts. Rather it's a critique of the book's opening tone.

However, rather than just tell you, unhelpfully, "This is stale," it's more helpful to tell you why.

Consider Chekhov's Gun for this scene. When you have a set-up, you need to have a pay-off. It doesn't have to be right away, but there has to be one.

You spend all this time building up the contents of this suitcase, and then it's just forgotten about and dismissed with, "But I'll open it later when the other two are present."

That's not very satisfying to read. There are primarily two good ways to make this scene play out better:

A: Have the MC open the case in this scene, and have it be something interesting inside that promises intrigue or conflict later. For example, the MC opens the case and finds a gun.

B. Have the character about to open the case at the peak of the anticipation, and then something drastic interrupts him, preventing the reader from finding out what's inside until later.

You're probably more inclined to go with the second option, so rather than waving away the payoff of this set-up with, "I'll open it later," have him WANT to open it, but then conflict prevents him.

You should check this out, it might be helpful in understanding how to make a good scene. While this particular video essay is breaking down screenwriting, a lot of these story-telling principles can help with novels and short stories too. https://youtu.be/XATONsyKml0

>>20757689
Give an example

>>20755620
I've written 250,000 words of Enid (I wish I was exaggerating, this book is going to need some trimming) in the past year even though I was working full-time.

Write anyway, even when you don't feel like it. I don't spend all day writing, just 1 - 1.5 hours a day, roundabout 1,000 words each writing session.

If you write 1,000 words a day, in 85 days you'll have an average-length 85,000-word novel. That's less than three months. Even if you don't write every day and only manage, say, five days a week, missing a couple here and there, you can still easily finisht he first draft in a matter of a few months.

If you just want to write for fun than this advice isn't for you, but if you want to become a novelist one day or someone who can live off of their writing, you have to write even when you don't feel like it. Consider it a job. Schedule an hour or two everyday, either before or after work, and force yourself to write, even if the ideas aren't coming and you feel mentally-constipated.

At first this will feel like bashing your head into a wall, but after a while you can Pavlov yourself into getting the creative juices flowing. I noticed that my creativity spiked when I stopped writing at random times, and started writing at the same time every morning before work.

Creativity responds to discipline and training. Not only should you write every day, but do it at the same time every day and in the same conditions. If you need coffee, start every writing session with coffee. I always start with a cup of coffee and the same 3-hour writing playlist, and because the conditions for all of my writing sessions are consistently the same, it's very easy to get "in the zone."

The first couple of weeks will suck, but once you get in the rhythm you can train your writer brain to be productive on command.

>>20755711
They do adhere to a standard, just not the same standard vapid English teachers want them to. I wouldn't necessarily call it "their" standard, since it's usually not exclusive to them, but it's certainly a standard to be sure.

>>20755861
Study the artwork of painters in various countries painting their landscapes. Writers and visual artists can learn a lot from each other.

>>20755873
I quite like it, my only complaint is that some of the rhymes are a bit lazy, but others are good. For example, rhyming "it" with "it" multiple times undermines the whole point of rhying in the first place, IMO. But I like what you've done with the parentheses and some of your metaphors are good.

I like that you end it with a couplet, even though it's not a sonnet.

>>20755977
There's a reason that manuscript and screenplay theft is so rare--it's exceptionally easy to wreck a copyright theif in court. Most people know this and don't try to.

With the digital age, anything you write is automatically considered yours under copyright law (assuming you live in the US or UK), and with time stamps and digital files, online posts et cetera, it's not hard at all to prove something belongs to you if someone else is stupid enough to steal it.

Just make sure you have the original document on your computer and somewhere else online (like a Google doc or something) and you're fine to share it wherever you want.

Also, you're not going to like this, but the vast majority of writing samples that people post online aren't that good, and aren't worth stealing anyway. If you're a shit writer, why would I want to steal your work? Most writers worry about their work being stolen without realizing that their work isn't even worth stealing in the first place.

>>20756037
This is fabulous anon, don't stop.

>>20756677
Completely disagree. In fact, it's best to write one or two bad "practice" novels before going public with a true debut.

There's no reason for new writers to post their bad books publicly just for "eyes." It's better to debut with a great first book after years of practicing the craft.

>>20756781
Wrong. Number one problem with new authors is caring more about being perceived as a Writer™ than about the actual craft. A lot of newbie writers want to be authors but don't actually enjoy writing, or even reading. The amount of wannabe authors online saying they want to write but don't enjoy reading is perfectly indicative of that.

>>20756887
Read Sigrid Undset

>>20756887
Write women as rich and pretty gay (mostly spoiler) men, that gets you about 98% of the way there

>>20756887
Write women as spoiled rich and attractive gay men, that gets you about 98% of the way there

>>20757498
Your intuition is correct. Writing short stories can help with the basics of dialogue and prose, but the pacing and structure of short-stories are vastly different from writing novels. Some novelists have reported trying to write short-stories after years of writing novels, and found them much harder to write, despite them being shorter.

Writing short stories will make you better at writing short stories, writing screenplays will make you better at writing screenplays, and writing novels will make you better at writing novels.

Short stories and novels are not interchangeable.

Ignore the clarity and simplicity of your intuition at your own peril.

>>20757564
I'm trying

>>20757573
I'll check it out right now and report back

>>20757879
THIS.
And this thread seems especially choked with such people.
I remember one wannabe asking "I want to write! But what should I write?"
We answered "Write whatever you feel like."
Anon answered "OK! But what?"
One answered along the lines of "Most writers have something to say. If you don't, what draws you to writing in the first place?"
There was no reply.
I think writing for the NEET crowd is like playing pro basketball for inner-city youth – a hopeless dream that requires a lot of time and effort that they're not willing or able to expend.

>>20757923
Yep, and think of it in terms of hobbying. If someone enjoys basketball, you don't ask the 35-year-old white guy who shoots hoops with his buddies on the weekend, "So, when are you going to join the NBA?"

Yet, we do that all the time with writers. If someone writes just for the pure joy of writing, people act like they're crazy.

>"What? You're not going to publish? Why not?"

This attitude, along with gen Z's obsesison with clout, has made most young newbie writers think that writing is just an easy means to becoming famous, and not a craft and artform in its own right. They don't write for the joy of writing, but for the hope that they can be famous one day. Most of them don't even enjoy story-telling and just think that having a few (probably unoriginal) ideas makes them special, when ideas are cheap.

>>20757922
>>20757573
Just saw how long this was, it will likely take me a couple days to finish it. I'll leave comments in the doc.

>>20757607
The “Gardnerposting” is all one guy who is jealous of F Gardner.

I have a story I want to write but I can't get passed 2 pages. What do I do?

>>20757923
A lot of wannabe writers actually wanted to make films, comics or games, but ended up writing because it's "easier". They don't care about books at all.

>>20757974
There’s no way that’s all just 1 guy

>>20757974
There is literally no reason to be jealous of a psychopathic narcissist NEET suffering from arrested development.
Anyone can shit out a dozen "books" if they have no standards and perform no editing.

So how do you guys outline? Or are you spur of the moment fuckers without a plan? I want to know what you do when planning out a story, scene, chapter.
Mine sucks but it's what works. Basically a summary play by play, written in paragraphs. Including sections where I say 'insert description with x mood here' or 'envoke a feeling of x' throughout.

>>20740107
Well, rats. I tried to write something else for FFA, for the prompt "an unusual item at the bottom of the sea", but it ended up ~2500 words...well past the limit of 1000.
Gotta try again, and not be so chatty this time.

>>20756677
What would you consider a short book? How many words max?

>>20758022
Oh it’s you.

>>20758028
I do it by chapter. Nothing too detailed, usually just a sentence or two per chapter. I want to the outline to just have the main story beats. I use Keep Notes on my phone to jot down any ideas or bits of narration/dialogue I come up with throughout the day and use those to actually write the chapter and fill in all the details.

>>20758022
Mate you haven’t even said anything that proves you’ve read any of F Gardner’s books. I’ve read Call of the Arcade and that book read fine. Until you prove otherwise I am going to assume this is just sour grapes and you are some desperate loser.

Redpill me on thesauruses and dictionaries. How do you personally use them?

>>20757974
Fuck off Gardner.

>>20758126
Here's a typically...memorable...segment of one of his "books":

>An eternal night, was stretched out as far as
>Otto could see. The sky was pitch black, and
>seemed to last forever. Not a single star was in
>the sky. Very different from the sky back on
>Earth. In the mortal world, Otto could usually
>see at least some stars. Otto’s home was in
>Chicago. In the city. So, that meant the sky
>wasn’t always as clear as it would be,
>otherwise. In the country, the stars in the sky
>can seem boundless. They’re visible and
>plentiful. But in Chicago, it wasn’t quite as
>clear. You couldn’t see as many of them, but
>they were still there. This place however, was
>unlike Chicago. There wasn’t a single star
>which the boy could detect. The sky was empty,
>devoid of a single star. It was just pure
>darkness above him. Starless.

Calling this "high-school tier" is being far too kind.

>>20758146
Lmfao yes the one excerpt you repeatedly spam. I don’t really see what’s even supposed to be wrong with that. All you did was copy and paste the same spam you’ve been shitting up this board with.

Fuck off Gardner

>>20758137
Basically, if you're going to be focused on a single setting/event etc for a long while, say something takes there like a dialogue and you worry that you might start lacking descriptives or ways to refer to the setting/event, then you might look up the main referents you use, to find other ways to address it without repeating yourself. It helps building the lexical field.

>>20758137
There are three things I do to enrich my writing and help me find the words I need.

For the dictionary (and this is going to sound lame), I have the Webster app on my phone because it allows me to look up words offline, but I primarily use it for the "favorites" feature. You can click favorite on every word you like that you look up. I have a long list of favorited words that I've forgotton about, which is good because all of the words I found memorable in the past are saved in one location with their definitions.

For the thesaurus, it's best to use it to avoid repetition. A lot of writers are blind to repetition and don't notice when they use the same distinct word multiple times in a short sequence. Some words are inevitable; for example, there's not really any good synonyms for "blood," so if you're writing a bloody action scene, there's no getting around using the word "blood" a few times more likely than not. But most of the time, you can avoid repetitive prose with the thesaurus.

The third thing that's worth doing is finding new terminology for things you don't know about. If you don't know what a specific part of something is called, look up, "Anatomy of ___" and 9 times out of 10 you'll find all the names you need.

For example, I didn't know what the shadow-thing on a sundial was called, so I looked up "Anatomy of a sundial" and found it. It's called a "gnomon." You can do this with all sorts of stuff; clothing, cars, animals, tools, you name it. It allows you to be more specific with your word choices, and makes it seem like you actually understand all of the subjects you touch upon.

>>20758155
>I don’t really see what’s even supposed to be wrong with that
We know you don't.

Are we witnessing the Gardner redemption arc?

>>20758155
>posting Gardner's actual writing
>shitting up the thread
Indeed.

>>20758224
After the week-long Great Schizo Freakout...Gardner will never be redeemed.
His name is mud here...forever.
Especially since he stupidly revealed himself to be the seething schizo samefagging pseud that's plagued us for who knows how long.

>>20758210
>"Anatomy of ___"
I do this so often—I can't imagine what it was like to be an author back before the internet. Like just going "I guess I'll never know" or having to make a note to look it up next time you go to the library and hoping the encyclopedia is thorough enough.

>>20758235
Anon who was only here during when this place was called the crit thread and just returned. Who the fuck are these people? Are they good at writing? Why do all of you care so deeply?

>>20758238
Before the internet you could just be wrong and only one or two people would know

>>20758224
>Gardner redemption arc
Has he done something he regrets?

Every time I try to write dialogue it always come out like ass. I was told this is the easiest part of writing but for my stupid ass it seems to be the hardest. Are there any tests I can do as I write for whether my dialogue is stilted? Because apparently reading it aloud doesn't help me.

>>20758224
I think so

>>20758235
You mean that guy who reviewed his own book? Your now saying Gardner is also him? Lmao.

>>20758358
>Your now saying
illiterate
opinion discarded

>>20758370
You know what I mean fag. Post proof or gtfo and stop shitting up the generals. The very idea of F Gardner being some kind of bogeyman is retarded as fuck

>>20758358
>that guy who reviewed his own book
Gardner was recently busted for review fraud on Goodreads.
His reviews were removed en masse, and he was banned from the site.
Is that what you're talking about?

>>20758398
I just looked those up on Goodreads. I still see him there

>>20758422
Any sign of him logging in recently?
Like a new blog post?
The ban was relatively recent.

>>20758398
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5633094.F_Gardner

F Gardner and all his books are still on GR, you liar. If you’re going to lie at least make it something we can’t easily disprove.

The main character has the power to breath out cold, high-pressure mist that can bore through metal.
I need to think of a cool name for this. Other dudes in the story have cool skill names, like "Thermal Shift" or "Particle Spear" but I can't think of a cool name for this one.

>>20757907
AND THERE’S NO CROSSOVER WHAT SO EVER!!!!1

>>20758432
Don’t bother. He literally and unironically has nothing better to do with his own time than to spam about how envious he is of F. Gardner. Sad really.

I like reading, I don't even care what the story is about as long as the flow of sentences is creative and feels good "chewing". Last book I read was the House of Leaves and it's what inspired me to finally start my manuscript instead of doing endless notes and random paragraphs.
What have you guys read that gets you "in the mood" to write? I'd love to have something inspiring I can learn from.

>>20758432
He, and many of the reviews of his books, were purged.

>>20758444
Even if that is true your changing the subject now. I very much doubt F Gardner comes here.

>>20755566
>pick up virginia woolf
>crazy bitch uses 3 semicolons, 2 em dashes, and a set of parenthesis in ONE sentence
>modern publishing establishment loses their mind if you use more than 2 semicolons in the entire novel

honestly we're being shortchanged by the hostile midwit takeover.

>Famous author comes on /wg/ to enter a flame war about himself.

I mean I don’t believe that for a second. But posts like these are why I love these threads. Thanks for the laugh gents.

>>20758458
You must be new here. People said the same thing about Tao Lin. But Gardnerposting is way bigger than that ever was. Still funny, either way.

>>20758437
I said what the crossover was. You can master dialogue and prose writing novels or short stories, but to improve at writing novels, you should practice writing novels, since they're structurally different from short stories.

Your reading comprehension skills are dogshit, stop straw-manning.

>>20757955
Jeeze anon, I just expected a few comments. you're doing some serious editing. Thank you so much.

>>20758475
>you need to write short stories because they sell well
>what did you mean by this
Your reading comprehension is immeasurably below dog shit.

>>20758443
The Once and Future King always makes me want to write about knights. Ulysses has been making me want to write in general. House of Leaves I remember made me want to try something experimental. Portrait made me want to up my metaphor game big time.

>>20757573
So you may or may not have noticed that I absolutely dissected every single line in the first chapter and tore them to shreds, but here's my general thoughts.

Despite the metric shit-ton of comments and edits I made, the story itself wasn't bad. Your pacing was pretty good, and I think you've actually got a great grasp on dialogue. It's your actual prose and descriptions that are all over the place.

But that's alright--with the help of beta readers and editors, you can fix these things on a line-by-line basis. I don't intend on doing the entire document because I'm already beta-reading for another writing buddy, but I hope the substantial edits I made in the prologue and first chapter help you understand more of the fundamentals of writing.

You might need to read more. If you read good literature--and do it slowly, take your time--you'll naturally start to develop a better understanding of sentence structure and prose. The story is good so far, it's the writing itself that needs a lot of work, but hopefully the comments I left offer some insight into how you should approach copy editing the rest of the manuscript.

Fun fact: Boswell is reporting anyone who says anything nice about Gardner.
I have never seen anyone so jealous throughout the entirety of this general.

>>20758502
Thank you. I really appreciate it. I'll read more historical fiction and try and see how the masters word things. Want to be acknowledged in the acknowledgements?

>>20758482
You glossed over the bottom part of his comment, apparently. Ironically proving that I was correct about your reading comprehension.

>>20758512
You don't have to, it was only one chapter. But if you want, we can do a beta exchange once I'm done with the one I'm currently revising. If you want, you can send me an email at dylandevineABA@gmail.com and I'll read the rest of the manuscript once I've got the time.

>>20758509
It’s pretty fucking unreal. I don’t see why he can’t just aspire to be a writer on his own. He clearly sees F Gardner as a threat since Call of the Crocodile is the biggest book to come out of /lit./ But so what? They can both be writers if they want.

https://pastebin.com/ZXn2dbBe
Give me it to me straight.

>>20758514
I didn’t gloss over anything. I’m free to not respond to every detail some fag types on the internet. If I spent every waking moment paying attention to fags like you I’d never get anything done, like you.

>>20758550
>I don't waste me time talking to people like you!11!!
>keeps responding to me

Sure, Jan.

You can have the last word since you clearly want it so badly, feel free to spew whatever sanctimonious pseudo-superior bullshit you want, this is my last reply to you.

>>20758536
Boswell has already tried, and failed, to be a writer. He's been putting out the same shit for 10+ years now and has never once improved.
Say what you will about Gardner, his books are at least interesting. The over the top plotlines combined with his comedically repetitive prose is fun. It reminds me of Len Kabasinksi framing every single shot as a Dutch angle in Skull Forest. Obviously you are not supposed to do that, but I can respect that he did.
Boswell is just rice cracker nothing tier.

>>20758509
Based Boswell.

>>20758568
I agree. F Gardner’s books have a lot of charm to them. Their schizo pulp fiction at their best. Is that for everybody? Absolutely not. But the clear attempts to just openly shit on them by Boswell are really meanspirited and transparent.

>>20758224
Boswell redemption arc maybe.

>>20758593
Nice try Boswell.

>>20758540
I missed her body and her soul. I missed the way she moved and looked at me, speaking without words. I missed her soft, pale skin. I missed her company, her spirit, her gaze. Her powerful stare that burned in my memory.

I think the repetition was overdone. Especially when the big emphasis is going to be her eyes.

>I missed her body and her soul. The way she moved and spoke without words. Her soft, pale skin - velvet and warm. The conversations igniting my creativity. There was no equal. What I missed most of all though, was her gaze. Eyes embedded with emeralds, her powerful stare burned into my memory.


Something like that. Can't wait for you to finish. Eggplant was very interesting to read

>>20758540
Did… did the MC… have sex with a manatee?

>>20758593
He’d first have to defeat F Gardner. But F Gardner is like the Freiza of writers. Hated by many, gay, and has a writing power level that all of /wg/ would have to unite to match.

>>20758642
>gay

Ok I laffed. 10/10 copypasta material.

>>20758602
>>20758639
You guys, thank you for reading, you’re great, good night

>>20758540
I swear it's like every other thing I read here is about obsession with women.
Women really are the most powerful.

>>20758685
Women are old news. Obsession with Faggot Gardner is the new trend here.

>>20758685
If you something that isn't a POV character obsessing over a woman, I posted this >>20757607 earlier which is a fantasy story about the monastic life of a child. (At least in these first two chapters.)

>>20758691
These generals have been comedy gold lately.

>>20758642
Shut the fuck up Gardner.

>>20756677
Books got much longer in the 70s and 80s. Average novel length expanded to 300-500 pages. The reason was entirely artificial. People bought their books at Waldenbooks and B. Daltons. You probably don't know what those were. They were commercial bookstore chains a fraction of the size of Barnes and Noble or Borders. Maybe you don't know what those are either.

Anyway. It all came down to marketing and shelf space. When you're walking through the mall, and decide to turn into the one local bookshop (the internet didn't exist, so this was only opportunity to buy books), you'd spend 90% of your time in the first 1/3 of the little mall shoebox store. So sale display was premium, and books that had a thickness of 300-500 pages were ideal for selling. This led authors to target those sizes.

Before that time, when people were just interested in writing good novels, books would be 150-250 pages.

So now that we don't have that artificial construct, shorter books are just fine.

>>20758398
Me and my book are on the /wg/ shortlist. Shit, I dont' know if I want to be the next focus or not.

>>20758137
I use thesauruses. Sometimes I'll use it to find a good synonym for a word I just recently used and don't want to repeat. Another case, one from today, I wanted a word that was similar to "ominous" but that has a bad connotation and I wanted it to be neutral, so I used a thesaurus looking up "ominous" and found the word I used "portentious."

I don't use dictionaries. I usually know what words mean, I just look for better ways to say it.

>>20758642
Is Gardner actually gay or is this part of the meme

>>20758782
That's the only part that isn't a meme.

>>20758798
Kek

>>20754996
None of those. Start with the MC doing something. Explain the world later.

>>20754625
are there any books that focus on teaching one to write journal entries better?

>come to /wg/
>gardner gardner gardner
>close tab
Jesus christ, Frank, fuck off you mentally ill faggot

>>20757170
I did, and I've also checked out female-only tropes.
The difference of the sexes is a big theme in my story

The twist is that Gardner is not even here and all you fags are just wasting your fucking time.

>>20756938
So you're a woman then?

>>20758970
I’ve tried telling these faggots that before. The “Everyone is Gardner” meme is just too strong.

Can a story where the MC doesn’t discover their powers until the story begins (like harry potter or something) be as impactful as an MC who has always had their powers and is actually a pretty good witch/wizard? I am kind of tired of the MC discovering that they’re the strongest magic user suddenly in the beginning but it seems like its just something more ppl connect to

>>20758466
>Tao Lin
The snow leopard from kung fu panda? what does that have to do with writing general

>>20758973
that's what he tells everyone anyway

>>20758970
How dare you show your face here Gardner.

>>20759016
Sure it can.

decided to try to write something out for the first time
i am way too much of a perfectionist for this. i keep getting stuck on these certain problematic transition sentences, where i'm trying to go from one thought to the next. i know what i want to write, but i don't have a proper segue for it yet, but i can't bring myself to skip it and come back to it later even though i know what i want to write afterwards, so i end up not making much or any progress
i need to start forcing myself to just shit out text so that i can go back and edit it later so i don't waste time sitting here doing nothing, but man is it difficult. i've always been a huge fan of writers, but this has given me a whole new level of respect for them

>>20754625
Just sent a story off that I spent maybe 1-2 hours on. I don't give a fuck anymore.

>>20758970
This. Gardner aint here. That fucker would be making his presence known if he was. I've talked to him on discord and he's more eccentric than some generic spammer. If Gardner was here we'd all be receiving @everyones on discord of him announcing he's gracing us with his autistic presence. He'd then certainly post Bitchute videos all exclusively by Eric Dubay and giant walls of texts about the earth being flat. None of this has happened. His ego probably wouldn't be content with the anonymity.

>>20759079
Pathetic attempt at gaslighting Frank. Get help fatso.

>>20759080
I knew that was coming. Go ahead and continue Gardnerposting. I really don’t care.

>>20759089
>I really don’t care.
Entirely inconsistent with your behavior Gardner. If you didn't care you wouldn't still be here.

Rent free. Some writers PAY for this kind of buzz and advertising.

>>20759237
Based F Gardner. How the Fuck does he do it? This is some 5D chess shit.

I had a critique that said there's too much thrown at the reader. The idea behind this introduction is that your more so along for the ride. And you learn more about the Kaskari as the story progresses. Though I could better introduce them here. I'm not sure.

https://share.dabblewriter.com/static/icZqS5EjWZ4naGGM1Lkj5

20759400
New less shit bread...for now...

>>20759400
New less shit bread...for now...

>>20756239
Real life. My early life was ridiculous and dramatic enough for lifetimes of writing.

>>20758509
Fun fact: Gardner thinks half the people on this thread are Boswell.

>>20758970
The so-called Gardner-LARPer sure got bent out of shape over a 1-star review for "Limbo's Rainbow".
Why would anyone but Gardner even care?
Right.