/lit/ - Literature

Nobody? Jej /lit/ really is midwit central

>>20715629
I heard good things about it from here some years ago. Current lit sucks.

>>20715629
nobody in /lit/ is smart enough to read about archeogenetics

it's free on audible plus, anybody with audible already listened to it ages ago. it's ok but not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/03/29/who-we-are-1/
>Reich’s book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, is really two books. The first is an exposition of his excellent work using ancient DNA to understand prehistory. The second is about the impact of advances in genetics on our understanding of social issues, such as various forms of inequality and racial differences. It’s not obvious why that second book was written. It’s not his specialty, and it’s far more controversial. Which for sure doesn’t bother me, but might not be a good thing for Reich. Nor is it as good a book. While saying true things that would, if properly understood by the usual gang of idiots, get him into serious trouble, the book is interspersed with non sequiturs, falsehoods, and unjust attacks on people who committed the deadly sin of prematurely coming to the same general conclusions he has. It’s possible that he felt the need to cloak his general line of thought with clouds of toxic squid ink.

>>20717459
Reich is jewish, what he did in that part was smoke and mirrors. He needs to throw some bread crumbs to the "usual gang of idiots" so that he can keep being considered the no1 geneticist worldwide and not get canceled. It could also just be because of ego

Remember Gustaf Kossina? When Reich was conducting some early tests about the Yamnaya, and found significant geneflow from the steppe into europe, many of the archaeologists from his team left as a sign of protest. He had to write a letter to get them back and he's careful ever since.

It's also a way to normalize genetics and ancestry. As I said it's smoke and mirrors. He has done more for race realism than all the past hundreds of wrongthinkers combined

>>20717481
>left as a sign of protest
* because that was what Kossina also said and a lot of NSDAP ideology was based on that.

>>20717481
>unintentionally ourguy

>>20717663
I doubt it's unintentional. He could never say this if he wanted yet he chose to do say it, and just present it in a more acceptable way so he won't get canceled. Not to mention that he regularly gives lectures in israel and he's jewish, if someone tries to cancel him he'll get called antisemitic. Reich is untouchable at the moment
He's well aware that the overton window is moving and tribalism and ethnic pride awakens even in normies with this.
He even draws many "progressives" in this. Because they get the chance of refuting the aryan theories of NSDAP and their predecessors, but this requires to embrace race. They go from
>race isn't real chud
to
>race is absolutely real, it's just that your theories of race are wrong, chud

This also introduces evolutionary sciences to normies. Ever noticed how evolution is almost entirely overlooked by the modern globohomo? They're all blank slate, tabula rasa cultists. Reich is doing exclusively evolutionary biology and all of this, which is not even a 10 year old field (we couldn't read autosomal aDNA before), gives insane levels of legitimacy to evolutionary sciences. Evobio is linked with evopsych and neurology. We're entering a period of truth, like a second Descent Of Man

>>20715629
It's good but more people on /his/ have read it than on /lit/. /lit/ consists of pozzed zoomers and millenial/gen x pseudointellectuals with no real interest in the nature of reality.

Varg denounced his theories because Reich says something about inherent miscegenation in the formation of races, like how everyone is mixed or whatever. I mean, isn’t this not only logically uncontroversial as it is shown to be the case with the encounter between protocultures in europe and the steppe, kurgan pastoralists? I admit I have more interest in the latter, anthropological studied but how does the genetic field, especifically Reich’s publications, relate to that? Seeing some of his quotes here kind of show the contrary to what I thought about him.

>>20718032
a yes varg my favorite authority on the state of archeogenetics i will definitely consider his criticisms.

>>20718032
varg knows less about archaeogenetics than the average /his/ lurker. he genuinely believes in hyperborean atlanteans or w/e
he genuinely believed that having blond hair and blue eyes determines your ethnicity. there are like 10 genes responsible for these traits, even arabs have them (just more rarely). he commited miscegenation himself and married a med french woman

>>20718672
kek

>>20718739
>med french woman
she is clearly not med, she is blonder then most dutch. for example.

>>20717481
>race realism
There’s still no justification for racism, IE discrimination much less genocidal tendencies that “race realists” promote

>>20718793
There’s no justification for the belief that different population groups should achieve identical socio-economic outcomes. Once the automatic equation of inequality to injustice is broken due to findings in genetics, anti-racism is finished. Reich is a liberal who wants a “soft landing” out of the collapse of the post civil rights era consensus on race. He knows that if libs/lefts refuse to budge, it will significantly empower fascists and ethnonationalists who will say “we were right the whole time” and try to bring back le heckin racism regimes (hard landing)

>>20718793
>>20718859
Racism doesnt exist, its just an excuse for a class of lefty middle men to oppress the working and upperclass whites.

>>20715759
Read it and find out.

>>20718785
There are like 10 genes that determine whether you will have blond hair or not. Blond levantines exist but are genetically levantine. Our genome isn't 10 genes, it's 10,000,000+
French are very similar to spaniards and italians and south frenchs are literally spaniards.

>>20718793
>Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism, race realism, or race science by its proponents.
there's no "racism" in race realism
Btw I consider racism justified on basis of tribalism, it's you who doesn't. Most people in the world are racist, and the non-racist groups (like WASPs in america) eventually die out

>>20718793
>there's no justification for discrimination and genocide
Why? Because these are... le bad?

>>20718739
>he believes in hyperborean atlateans
Check out this article of his https://thuleanperspective.com/2020/06/01/the-whg-eef-wsh-origins-of-europe/

>>20718793
Yeah, idk how Jews think that they can justify the whole "chosen people therefore we get to genocide the world" thing, but they keep trying.

>>20718032
Yes, and Varg is an idiot. Reich is controversial because he has a tendency of clinging to bizarre nonsense as a way to do a "SEE! SEE! I'M NOT A RACIST!" thing. For example, he rejects the Steppe origin of IEs and instead posits that they came from southeast Anatolia. This is just flat out wrong, but it lets him deflect from "you just want to fantasy about based aryan steppe chads!".

>>20719804
>For example, he rejects the Steppe origin of IEs and instead posits that they came from southeast Anatolia. This is just flat out wrong, but it lets him deflect from "you just want to fantasy about based aryan steppe chads!".
you probably haven't seen his latest lecture and upcoming studies

https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture
>The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal.
This corresponds with the linguistic work of Gramkrelidze & Ivanon and some recent archaeological findings. People forget that both archaeology and genetics are an ongoing field

>>20719724
Lol it's from 2020 and he doesn't know about the CHG/Iran and even minor Natufian that exists in europe? He ignores the EHG? And even Nganasan (Siberian) in the north?

Not sure why he keeps thinking he's a neanderthal the moment the most neanderthal dna is located in east asians, then in mediterraneans, and finally in northern europeans. Dude's a schizo

>>20719804
I thought Kurgan hypothesis was well established and accepted without major crticisms. What do you think of Gimbutas and David W. Anthony? Are they worth reading? Also have you read Varg's article in the post above? I'm not challenging you, I'm just interested in these researches but still haven't started to study in depth.

>>20719862
Kurgan hypothesis was rejected by David W Anthony himself
>The Kurgan culture was so broadly defined that almost any culture with burial mounds, or even (like the Baden culture) without them could be included.[34]
The hypothesis itself was correlation/causation

Not him but I'll answer
Gimbutas was a schizo
Anthony is alright, he's disingenuous at times and has an agenda because he profits from it (him and Mallory made a career out of larping as steppe pastoralists) but he isn't completely retarded. He admires reich, has said so himself

>I'm just interested in these researches but still haven't started to study in depth.
Go to researchgate, find Lazaridis, Reich, Mathieson, read all of the studies they are involved in, then find all the other studies that cited their studies and read them too. Anthony isn't a geneticist (or even a linguist), he's an archaeologist and genetics/linguistics is his hobby (and he sucks at genetics honestly, he said IE comes from EHGs when EHGs were living in europe and came in contact with the anatolian farmers from the moment the farmers entered europe, but no proof of IE languages at that time)

>>20719891
But I mean, narrowing it to Pit Grave culture instead of the more comprehensive Kurgan hypothesis wouldn't be more a continuation than a rejection of the hypothesis? I do think Gimbutas saw things in an ideological perspective so to speak (all the chtonic, Mother Earth gynaecocracy vs. ouranic sky father patriarchy), but it is very interesting and still kind of fit what has been archeologically discovered, no? Not in the hysterical way of complete genocide by the steppe invaders, but in an active colonization of european lands and thus imposition of the whole Indo-European culture we know.

I'll check their studies, thank you for the recs.

>>20719842
No, I have not, I've just seen people infodumping about why the broad idea of this ("IEs came from Anatolia and not the Steppe") is wrong. I'm open to other alternatives, but I don't see how this can be given that literally everything else points to the urheimat of the Indo-European languages being in the steppe. If what he's actually trying to say is "yes the steppe IS where they spread out from, but they were a (semi-)coherent group before that and THAT came out of Anatolia" I would be less likely to reject it, but I'm just going off of this that you've linked here.

>>20719862
It is, it's only at the fringes that it's rejected. For example, in the link that anon posted, the Anatolian languages are referred to as the "Indo-Anatolian language family", which is just absolutely absurd in the eyes of all linguists. Anatolian languages are so Indo-European it hurts. They are basically what linguists in the 1920s would have constructed if you told them "create several IE languages that are undergoing the 2>3 gender transition and are losing their laryngeals but not equally". There's zero reason to postulate that they originated separately, and there's zero reason to then lump them in with Indo-Iranic because Indo-Iranic languages are closer to fucking Germanic than they are to Anatolian.

Gimbutas was correct about the steppe origin of IEs (I'm not going to comment on anything else by her, no one cares, the field has moved past her), and the archaeology and genetics demonstrates it. You can quibble about where precisely "the steppe" was, but these people lived around the steppe of the black sea before they spread out, and that's just a simple fact. There's too much archaeological and genetic evidence to say otherwise. You'd have to explain why all of the archaeological and genetic evidence points back to this specific region (which Reich might be doing, again, I haven't seen this lecture). I mean, for fuck's sake, go look at the dendrochronological and archaeological records of the Caucasus at the time that the Proto-Anatolians were moving in: the entire region gets deforested and depopulated. Why? Because a large amount of foreigners are very violently moving in. You can look at the shape of their population and see that they are coming in from the north.

>>20719970
Kurgan hypothesis is literally wishful thinking with no evidence and even anthony rejected it himself. The yamnaya culture was also not the first WSH culture since they are like 1000 years late. I told you it's an ongoing field

>wouldn't be more a continuation than a rejection of the hypothesis?
no, it's a refutation. their only similarity is that they place PIE in the pontic-caspian steppe

>but it is very interesting
nah compared to what we know now it's boring. but at the time sure it was interesting
>and still kind of fit what has been archeologically discovered
no. That's the exact reason anthony rejected it. Genetics refuted it as well as some cultures that were seen as IE such as the globular amphora culture ended up having 0% steppe dna (literally 0%)

>Not in the hysterical way of complete genocide by the steppe invaders, but in an active colonization of european lands and thus imposition of the whole Indo-European culture we know.
we foudn that with genetic studies too. It was a centuries-long migration and continuous admixture. That was found from a Cucuteni-Trypillia study in 2021 iirc
btw IE culture didn't survive in europe, nomads who moved into europe. what survives was some mythology, and ofc the languages. The mythology later becomes less present, for example iron/vikin age nordic mythology doesn't have much from the nordic bronze age mythology
The culture that probably preserved the IE culture the best were the scythians

>>20719978
Also, Varg's article is him getting butthurt at an attack on "racial purity", but he's looking at from the perspective of an individual rather than a population. A population by definition has genetic diversity, the question is just which trains come from where. I know that he doesn't view the Eddas as literal, or even credible, but Ask and Embla populated the Earth, and then Heimdallr as Rig came down and created three races of man. Thrall, Karl, Jarl lines up with NHG, EEF, IE, complete with IE being lead by the blonde-haired blue-eyed aryan chad (remember that only Konr Ungr is physically described, his other brothers, the sons of Jarl, are not).

The stuff about neanderthals is just dumb, the last neanderthals died out 40k years ago, IEs were running around 6K years ago (ROUGHLY), there's 34K~~~~ years in between.

>>20719978
>For example, in the link that anon posted, the Anatolian languages are referred to as the "Indo-Anatolian language family", which is just absolutely absurd in the eyes of all linguists
Also, to further this: the Indo-Iranics BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION came east out Eastern Europe and the black sea steppe area, went east, came south, and then entered Iran, and moved west into the Middle East, and eventually Anatolia. Every single piece of archaeology and historical attestation (which we can have at this point, around 1,000BC) points to this. So, to suggest an Anatolia origin for the IE-urheimat (again, where they EXPANDED OUT FROM, not where they lived at one point before moving), you'd have to suggest that the Indo-Iranics started in Anatolia, went north through the Caucasus, went west into Europe, moved BACK east into the steppe, then kept going east, then went south, then entered Iran, then looped BACK into Anatolia, and every single attestation by literally everyone, including Indo-Iranics, is wrong.

>>20719978
nah it's not about the anatolian hypothesis. it's around the area gamkrelidze put it, north iran, eastern armenia or something like that
>literally everything else points to the urheimat of the Indo-European languages being in the steppe.
it doesn't. genetics apparently don't, linguistics also don't (although this is debated), archaeology doesn't either if you consider that the yamnaya and their predecessors did not have wheels

>yes the steppe IS where they spread out from, but they were a (semi-)coherent group before that and THAT came out of Anatolia
it's more complex than that. The urheimat is placed around north iran, and from there there are multiple dispersal streams. the steppe definitely spread languages to europe and possibly elsewhere (tocharian), it's just not the urheimat and not the sole spreader (some proponents of the steppe urheimat hypothesis have said the same)

>>20719978
not him
>because Indo-Iranic languages are closer to fucking Germanic than they are to Anatolian
there are multiple ongoing hypotheses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
the fields are ongoing. Renowned linguists have placed PIE south of the caucasus around north iran for example.

>the archaeology and genetics demonstrates it.
nobody argues that IEs came from anywhere else, technically the first autosomally WSH is found in Samara, Russia. We're talking about the language, Reich is too.
That's what you're probably confusing. The steppe origins of yamnaya, sredni stog and whatnot is basically sealed now, there's no dispute

>Proto-Anatolians were moving in
no evidence of this, this is what Reich reports. There were later migrations that are seen in Bronze Age Armenia that is around 25% steppe. Clemente et al 2021 found the same but we already knew this from Lazaridis et al 2017

>>20720040
If by Indo-Iranics you mean Sintashta and Andronovo, their DNA was tested as a source in india and it does not match. The model fails, they did not contribute any DNA in india. Steppe in india comes from different sources. The steppe in Iran is also yamnaya in origin as Reich found, non CWC (where indo-iranics descend from)

>Every single piece of archaeology and historical attestation (which we can have at this point, around 1,000BC) points to this
Such as? Also what was their admission? We don't exactly have anything written by Sintashta or Andronovo