/lit/ - Literature

incel genre

>>20703621
Scenes are not learned, the knowledge must be passed by an older generation or absorbed through observation. Dumbass

>>20703621
Sounds based
Do you have the pdf?

You mean music theory? Sounds boring it destroys music.

>>20703629
That's why its great.

>>20703908
https://usa1lib.org/book/7107812/bc40c2
Got it off zlibrary

>>20703621
It's been sitting in my pdf folder for a while but I never got around to reading it, yet.

>>20703621
You'll find lots of references to Nietzsche, Bataille, Lovecraft, and Eugene Thacker. Sometimes Deleuze, Zizek and Lacan. Maybe a little Satanic Bible and Crowley, but those tend to be minimal because I think the academics already realize they're at the fringes of what a university will accept as legitimate so they don't want to go over the edge. About a quarter of what I've read has been actually interesting, but the vast majority is stupid name dropping and hipster wankery-- like most "critical theory." A bunch of it had an ecological bent. I guess because of all the rot and decay, and there *is* sort of an NS philosophy of ecology. Blood and soil, or whatever. But the writers being leftists didn't want to admit that there was that kind of intersection.

Metal is the white equivalent to rap. Ayo

>>20704931
Surely they must acknowledge the existence of NSBM at some point?

>>20704951
They do if they have to, but they don't like to and distance themselves from it as much as possible.

>>20704931
>>20704951
Hideous Gnosis, which was the collection of essays that had that particularly infamous quasi-Hegelian tract by Liturgy about a black metal manifesto, has an essay that examines NS in black metal. I'm not sure what leads you to believe it would be difficult for academics to take what politicized nsbm presents at face-value. Ecology is also examined both from left and right perspectives. Eminently left considering cascadian black metal of the early '10s was basically tree-hugging forest metal with an explicitly ecological bent; it's hard to see the nth cascadian album with trees and mountains on the cover and think otherwise. Eminently right because of all the blood and soil stuff.
>Wolves in Throne Room offer what has been called a ‘deep ecometal’ (Davis), and articulate a pagan and ecological world-view which is not without its own political equivocations. In fact, Famine picks up this point by noting to the interviewer that ‘Ecologism was born in an extreme right-wing context … as part of the völkish concept (the inseparable unity between folk and land, a land which should be protected as much as revered) and, more controversially, that ‘it is only later on that left-wing groups unjustly monopolized ecologistic positions’ (Famine, Travis interview).

>>20703621
>Black Metal Theory
wtf is that

>>20704985
That's all very true, but the majority of cultural studies academics / philosophers still want to play it save. Even now, they practically tie themselves into knots whenever Heidegger comes up because he was a Nazi but they just can't bring themselves to chuck him and the vast majority of post WW2 philosophy into the trash because of "contagion"-- even though there have been concerted attempts to do so because the origins of the philosophy is so "tainted." One of the worst things a critical theorist can call another is still "fascist" or "crypo-fascist." Even Derrida got called a fascist because of his use of Heidegger.

>>20704985
Famine talks a bit about how he views NS here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCMVwicHbDU
He also talks about a few inspirations here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCh_fUHwZrQ
It's all subtitled in English.

>>20704951
there's frankly very little to talk about regarding nsbm. it's just like christian rock where quality takes an extreme backseat to hitting superficial benchmarks, except in this case it's seig heils instead of jesuses per minute. a more interesting subject would be the reluctance of mainline black metal bands to include anti-islamic content, a far more dangerous hot button than standard blasphemy

Never delved into his work on black metal but Masciandaro's fiction is great. Picrel was the best book I've read this year probably. Easily available online too.

>>20705403
is it really that interesting a subject? mainline black metal is mainline for the fact that it stays within the assumed, normalized cultural parameters of the West. if it's anti-Christian that's because Christianity is the dominant cultural hegemony of the West, therefore most black metal will be positioned as anti-Christian. This is the exact logic of why the Norwegians were reacting against Christianity and not, say, Buddhism or Shintoism or Jainism or Islam. if there is a lack of anti-Islamic metal it's frankly because it doesn't enter into a Westerner's purview unless you're taking an active stance outside the West's given cultural parameters. this often, but not always, is a political stance, which is why it will tend to feature in nsbm (although not exclusively the case, this stuff is so niche you can go case-by-case to find general anti-Islam/anti-Abrahamic/anti-religion bands that aren't necessarily NS).

even besides that, Middle Eastern bands, under the cultural hegemony of Islam, do exist but are exceedingly rare for the simple fact that they run the real risk of being executed for blasphemy. Damaar is probably the most notable name there.

>>20705545
to add to this, besides Damaar, the misc. anti-Islam black metal from Islamic countries: Al Namrood, Janaza, Seeds of Iblis (contentious afaik), Narjahanam, Ayat, Hecate Egypt, Maat, Lavizan Jangal, Aras, Tadnees, Crescent, Lycopolis, Akvan, Mulla, Nex Carnis, Halla, Mogh

>>20704948
Nonsense

>>20703629
It's one of the last real refuges for young white men.

>>20705030
It's sad that we'll never see academics who dedicate their lives to Heidegger take his joining the NSDAP seriously.

Shouldn't modern black metal be about killing gays and colored people and overthrowing democracy? I thought black metal was about being "evil".

>>20706009
black metal has particularly only ever been about Satanic-tinged subversion throughout the major waves of its history (80s 1st wave, 90s 2nd wave, everything after informally a "third wave"). what you say are political projects and only subsets of black metal has concerned itself with the political, namely NSBM, RABM etc. black metal theory can cover politics but black metal ethos has rather been more about subversion along the axes of the cultural or the aesthetic. at the end of the day most of these guys are just musicians, not radical ideologues

>>20703621
Damn, academic presses will publish any damn thing as long as you use the correct terminology

>>20704948
both good

>>20706053
Barthes wrote cultural analysis essays on plastic, detergent soap and wrestling... I'm sure a musical form with as outlandish aesthetics and varied implicit critiques (anti-Christian, anti-modern, anti-Enlightenment, et al) is gonna generate some interest.

It was briefly the hip/edgy continental-derived fad, after ooo and accelerationism. Kinda cringe, esp. when you realize Masciandaro is over 50.

>>20703621
>Has anyone ever read anything relating to Black Metal Theory?
Some articles on the subject are good, but mostly meh.

just gonna be more sad leftist lies anyway, who gives a shit?

>>20703621
I've never been able to get into extreme metal, I've always been a traditional/trash kind of guy.

>>20705403
Most of it truly is horrendous garbage, there are just a handful of good NSBM acts, but most of them are just an uninspired double-larp.
>>20706993
based

Why would i read what some dork thinks about black metal when I could just blast FANISK while doing curls and snapping off Romans in between sets

>>20706993
Thats how I started, eventually discovered cannibal corpse and listened to them as a "joke"
Eventually my taste developed to become darker and darker then here I am..

I read all these autistic deathmetal.org articles.

>>20707663
deathmetal.org used to be good when they were called DLA / DMU / anus. right around Trump's ascent they straight up went full American partisan though, in basically its most degenerate, off-putting form. Like facebook boomer-tier. I read a lot of their stuff and it was formative for me seeing what it could look like if extreme metal were taken seriously within a sociohistorical context (or at least with the pretension thereof) backed by at least a little music theory. Their relevance in online spaces basically evaporated with the name changes.

Written by outsiders and troons

>>20703621
Metal is so goofy and cringe. No better than rapping.

>>20703621
if you want black metal adjacent theory read eugene thacker

>>20703629
>>20707725
the "metal is cringe" take is always funny to me but especially surprising on 4chan of all places. most metalheads (and musicians) don't take themselves too seriously and are incredibly chill and down to earth. there is an over the top camp factor to the aesthetics that repels normies but the music is really just supposed to be fun. go to an underground extreme metal show and the people are way less cringe than your typical /lit/ poster

>>20703621
Eugene Thacker discusses the meaning of the word “Black” in Black Metal in vol. 1 of his Horror of Philosophy book published by Zer0 books. I don’t care what anyone says, that is the best book published by Zer0 books—not Fisher’s CR.
Additionally, Black Gnosis is a collection of essays by cultural critics, professors, musicians, and maybe an anthropologist or two for a conference on metal theory. It’s decent and can be accessed for free via libgen.
Since Black Metal theory seems like a niche topic for a niche genre i’m sure you’re okay going in blind. Nothing you need to read first. Just re-listen to the classics.

>>20707767
Those bloated "dark" aesthetics and screaming like a drok is so gay.

Power electronics, Neo-folk, dark ambient etc. Mogs the fuck out of metal in terms of dark aesthetics and repelling normies.

>>20707919
no one here thinks you're special for listening to the derivative aesthetics of the 80s UK industrial scene. people can listen to both Current 93 and Darkthrone, it's not an either/or

>>20707919
>Power electronics, Neo-folk, dark ambient etc.
I like all sorts of underground music, including the genres you mentioned. Sorry you can't get into metal, anon. You're missing out.

>>20707936
this

>aestheticist black metal
Amazing.
>political black metal
Fucking cringe shit.

>>20707725
>Metal is so goofy
Yes. It's fun and it's loud, that's the point, and that's why it's great.

>>20707936
You implied that you're a special snowflake for listening to metal so stop back peddling

>>20707938
>You're missing out.
Kek, yeah fuck that cringe shit.

>>20707945
EDM is also fun and loud.

>>20707977
>cannot fathom that more than one person is talking to them
you're not saying anything interesting and I'm not back peddling [sic] anything because that was my first message in this reply chain. also if you're concerned with "dark aesthetics" then yeah, you are missing out. not that I think puerile views on aesthetics like that should be what hinges enjoyment since it's the type of behavior people should grow out of if they have any capacity to be receptive to culture, and not because one type presumably [Mogs] another type in [repelling normies]

>>20707977
You are confusing me with a different poster. I actually said the exact opposite (that metal fans are unpretentious and down to earth). Why come into a thread about metal and start sperging out about how it's "cringe" on 4chan of all places while also acting like you're going to blow our minds by mentioning power electronics? You actually have autism if you can't comprehend that you are the one being cringe as fuck in this situation lmao.

>>20707977
>EDM is also fun and loud.
Yes, but it sounds like shit.

>>20708042
>Regis
Finally saw him DJ a couple of months ago it was incredible. One of my favorite techno DJs. Nice. (I am the other guy arguing with the dumbass)

>>20707977
>EDM is also fun and loud.
Doesn't scratch the destructive itch that most metal has. I need that "makes you wanna grit your teeth" riffyness.

>>20707767
>he "metal is cringe" take is always funny to me but especially surprising on 4chan
Rock music is cringe in all of its forms.

>>20708087
>Rock music is cringe in all of its forms.
I'll take the worst rock I've ever heard for an hour over the worst rap I've ever heard for five minutes.

discarding the shitposter into the garbage bin, I'm gonna diverge onto a thesis peripherally related to EDM since it got brought up. Euronymous seeking out Conrad Schnitzler more or less connects Norwegian black metal to the krautrock scene, more particularly the kosmische progressive electronic music. This connection helps contextualize how/why so many 2nd wave Norwegians ended up exploring the implications of longer-form compositional styles and/or outright aping the synth ideas of krautrock, through a cosmic-existential lens that overlaps with the aesthetic project that kosmische music was also going for.

Examples being Darkthrone's Fenriz having a dark ambient project called Neptunian Towers that outright apes Tangerine Dream, the nature ambient of Ildjarn, the minimalism of Transilvanian Hunger, the long-form compositions on Burzum's Hvis lyset tar oss and Filosofem, the outright ambient tracks on Filosofem (that still manage to filter people unable to contextually or historically place it to this day) etc. The Norwegians will posture a lot but they were a lot more eclectic than they would have admitted, although Varg/Fenriz do outright cite techno as influences too, and techno is itself informed by kosmische music. All of this really encapsulates 2nd wave Norwegian stuff into a broader tradition of northern European music.

>>20707725
>rap
>commercially made
>no instruments used by rappers
>no singing ability
>talk stupidly about consuming more useless shit
>no concept for abstract thoughts or bigger idea
>all done on computers
>'artist' has no artistic ability
>rhyme nigger with nigga
>gang culture directly related to it
>fueds
>should not be called music

>metal
>musical ability central to genre
>scope and range covering everything from history to existentialism
>has not been popular for generatikns
>grew organically from native, working class values
>play live at venues
>little commercialism
>is actually music

>>20708137
you could've just said Deafheaven and saved yourself two paragraphs

>>20708137
Interesting. I never thought of a connection between krautrock and something like Ildjarn but I definitely see a through line (even with his raw bm stuff).

>>20704985
I almost got tricked into downloading this book until you posted this page of gibberish. Thank you for saving me from commie bullshit

>>20708179
quite literally irrelevant in the absolute sense to what was said

>>20708181
it took me a while to come around to understanding it, but it explains why DMU/anus types always held Klaus Schulze, Tangerine Dream etc in higher regard. it really does look like a random mishmash to have the former next to Burzum, Immortal, Mayhem etc without taking a more historical reading, which itself recontextualizes more of the overlap in ethos concerned with the eternal, atemporal and cosmic between black metal and progressive electronic space music.

>>20708186
>t. neoliberal

>>20708311
So is this writer supposed to be a fascist or is he some commie calling metal fascist in critique ? Either way he is retarded metal is cringe fake counter-culture

>>20703621
Black Metal is just the wild Nordic hatred for Christianity in musical form

>>20707725
lol you took the vax.

>>20708042
>>20708050
>>20708059
>>20708079
>>20708171
>>20708343
/metal/ is leaking go back cringy faggots

>>20708331
>on a literature board, where's it's assumed people read
>is writer da blue team or da red team

>>20708171
you forgot
>Enjoyed almost exclusively by criminal class whites
>Cringe and larpy culture surrounding it
>Pretty much taken over by the left now in most areas

>>20708409
I am trying to understand what the fuck the guy is even talking about by learning more about his political philosophy. Inbred metal listeners calling me dumb lol go back to watching Varg videos faggot

>>20708448
Then read material. Don't ask what everybody else thinks until you have read it. Or do you want confirmation of being on the correct side? Hoping in vain that another midwit neoliberal marvel fan will support your position.

>>20708429
Rap has always been left-wing. It is degenerate, destructive and without any artistic merit, all appeal in it is found in its unintentional parody of what music and song should be.

>>20708561
I said the the page was gibberish and not worth reading, you called me a neoliberal. I assumed this meant that the writer was actually a fascist using marxist critque to discuss metal but I wanted to know because at that point I was interested in where he was coming from. I'm not gonna read this either way because I would rather read something that isn't retarded. You are a cringy larper who thinks he has special politics because he reads the weird shit

>>20708593
>without any artistic merit
They're the last hope of poetry. Their language play is utterly original and boundary pushing.

>>20705403
That's completely wrong. Black metal is inherently NS. Bathory was playing around with NS imagery, Darkthrone made NS statements, Burzum, Emperor (members killing a homosexual), Absurd, Grand Belial's Key, Moonblood, The entire 90s polish scene, the entire Ukrainian scene, etc, etc.

>>20708609
>They're the last hope of poetry.

They have absolutely no concept of poetic verse, they like simple rhyming couplets.

>>20707697
Thought Brett reserved politics for amerika.org.

>>20708650
seethe, chud

>>20708672

>>20703621
>Floating Tomb: Black Metal Theory is a collaborative collection of writings in black metal theory (BMT), an amorphous metallectual movement initiated in 2009 with the symposium Hideous Gnosis. This volume gathers together previously published and new work on BMT focusing on mysticism, a domain of thought and experience with deep connections both to the black metal genre and to theory (as theoria, vision, contemplation). More than a topic for BMT, the mystical is here explored in terms of the continuous intersection between black metal and theory, the ‘floating tomb’ wherein black metal is elevated into the intellectual and visionary experience that it already is.

most embarrassing book description i've possibly ever read. theory is way too accessible for pseuds to deploy in jerking out glorified buzzfeed thinkpieces about their favourite metal subgenre, netflix show or r34 porn genre. enjoy your "BMT," sounds really deep man

i too went to college and enjoy darkthrone

>>20708650
Copy pasting one of Frater Asemlen's brilliant rap analysis post:

Neo-formalist poets are pretty unified in seeing rap as basically our come back. Rap arose out of what amounts to urban black folk music which absolutely returned to basically perfect metrical regularity and rhyme, and now due to being still a folk genre and basically ignoring all growth or modification of content and just focusing on form, they’ve created a titanic corpus of experimentations with differing metrical patterns, breath movements, arrangements of syllables, lengths, assonance and rhyme, etc.

For example, something like this is basically unknown in English verse prior to rap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuQ9UthcIWE

And alliteration of this level was basically left as a joke and almost never seriously done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx3JtNnJ7Cc

And the mixture of musicality, shifts in meter, heavy rhyme, and interplay of heavy alliteration in something like this, is, again, very strange to English formal material but is still fully able to be absorbed into all of our traditional modes of verse and drama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nq-BvMooYE

And this is just ONE rapper, there’s so many rappers and many of them are constantly trying to innovate new ways to manipulate syllables.

>>20708723
it may be impressive rhymecrafting but this "music" is unlistenably bad to my ears

>>20708634
this is such dumb revisionist history lol, black metal isn't inherently anything but Satanic-tinged subversion, and even the Satanic part is a conditional refuted by particularities. The only reason half the Norwegians played around with NS is because they were stupid fucking edgelord teens and knew it had shock value. The ones that did crimes were the exception, not the rule, when you actually look at the crimes committed quantatatively relative to the scene as a whole.

Most of them had no inclination towards radicalized politics, in the same way 4chan from 2005-2012 utilized shock value for the sake of shock value, rather than because of a coherent ideology. Darkthrone "made NS statements" to the effect of saying anyone who didn't like Under a Funeral Moon or some other record should be, paraphrashing, 'criticized for their obviously Jewish behavior', which they would immediately walk back after pressure from Peaceville and because of the fact they didn't really believe in it, and still rescind it to this day.

The idea of black metal being inherently NS is easily refuted by finding any band that isn't NS. If a universal can be refuted by a particular, then it's not a universal.

>>20708733
>this "music" is unlistenably bad to my ears
Same for metal

>>20708657
There was most definitely a time where the streams were crossed and petty, vulgar politics leaked onto deathmetal.org itself for a while. The irreconcilable contrast of Facebook-tier politics with an examination of death/black metal music that was supposed to be oriented towards the eternal, in the way people understand the most enduring works of the Western canon, was just intolerable to me.

>>20708734
to add to this it's like saying the UK industrial scene of the 80s is inherently NS because David Tibet makes unintelligible esoteric gibberish about Hitler as Kalki and Douglas Pearce has a nazi uniform fetish. failing to recognize the aesthetic for what it is and conflating it with the actual ethos of the artists is such a weak reading. If black metal were inherently NS then NBSM as a genre signifier would be wholly redundant and therefor unnecessary to conceive.

>>20708734
You really are a complete fucking idiot and you are the one doing revisionism. Bathory started singing about Norse paganism because he considered Christianity a foreign religion. He used Nazi imagery in his albums artwork. Burzum was a major innovator and was a dedicated Nazi. Absurd were the first and most important German black metal band and and were dedicated Nazis. The entire polish scene were dedicated Nazis, that scene was massively influential. Faust from Emperor killed someone just for being gay. Darkthrone made that statement and put "Norwegian Aryan Metal" on the Transilvanian Hunger (you didn't even know the album) artwork, and they didn't seem to have a problem hanging out with Varg. You can't just wave that away, they only rescinded it because they were gonna lose massive amounts of money. These are all early bands in the genre and extremely influential, all the stuff that gave black metal it's infamy was done by nsbm bands.You don't know anything about the genre so shut the fuck up.

OOOOOOOOOOOOF

>>20708792
It's wrong to compare the two. Industrial was ironic but the black metal scene acted on their beliefs.

>>20708853
>Burzum was a dedicated Nazi
>Varg also completely rejects anything regarding Nationalism or Socialism
lol

>>20708853
cope rationalizations. Naming random bands that used NS imagery for the shock value is as easy as naming bands that didn't, and therefore are absent within the scope of bm being "inherently NS", unless you discard them as being black metal at all to begin with. This is the simplest type of logic to exercise but you can't even do that because you're brainrotted to only see things from an ideological, instead of historical, lens.

>>20708875
>it's ironic when they do it but not when THEY do it... le because it is and they acted on it (???).... .. . .

>>20708878
Oh fuck off. He can call himself whatever he wants but it's obvious he's a white nationalist.
>>20708880
The bands I listed were all early innovators and were extremely influential to the genre. Seriously, I really doubt you even listen to the genre so just fuck off and stop talking about shit you don't know anything about.

>>20708878
Hes covertly praising Hitler all the time in his tweets.

>>20708908
You're trying to discredit me saying I don't listen to black metal when you have no idea what my credentials are, when I'm laying out explicit arguments and logic of why you're wrong. You don't even understand how weak-minded you seem right now. The logic I laid out already refutes anything inherent to black metal except subversion.

Direct quote from Quorthon, since you only seem to operate on anecdotes instead of logic:
>"I think the USA should make an examination of conscience and understand that they're not seen in a very good way around the world [...] The funny thing is that everybody keeps talking about World Trade Center and its six thousand deaths but nobody cries for the five thousand filipinos who died because of a tornado five months ago. Is there any difference between lives? If some whites in suit and tie die in the WTC is it a bigger loss than five thousand filipinos or two millions of africans starving? It's a racist world."
Yeah, very NS of Bathory, dude.

In the black metal documentary Until The Light Takes Us, Fenris makes some comments that are something along the lines of like "Varg is right about everything but it's not socially acceptable to say this" if I recall correctly desu.
Also the German black metal guy Todesstß (who is very good and underrated by the way anons) said in an interview that he can't stand how immigration has ruined Germany and that they shouldn't be allowed there.
Also Goatmoon in Finland

>>20708921
>Hitler tried to stop people smoking
>antifascist begins smoking

You're inability to parse information is a handicap you do not realize you have.

It's not unthought of.

>>20708936
Fenriz is elected to his local town board under a Liberal Party, which is mostly centrist. Before being more active in local politics, on Varg he's on record as:
>"Who knows what he’s all about? He’s really deep into that stuff, you know? He’s politically engaged, and I’m not. Music has been taking over my life totally. So music is larger than life for me. I’m not into that. It’s OK that he has interests, but I have my interests."
He's always been rather moderate. If he were to reveal a higher power level it would've happened by now.

>>20708929
>I feel, myself, like the lost son. For my entire upbringing here I was exposed to Christian propaganda. We are born into the Swedish National Church whether we wish it or not. During school we get lessons on Christianity time and again. Then i was never interested in either religion or history. Christianity was, of course, the Jewish history. It was when I first read about the Viking Age and Asatru that i became interested.
Yeah, very NS of Bathory, dude.

>>20708954
Well in the documentary he lets on that he is sympathetic towards Varg's opinions.

>>20708970
>paganism == NS
if only you were one of the actually intelligent NS apologists I've talked to, this conversation could be interesting. btw Christianity as subsumed into Jewish history isn't a controversial take it's literally history, which I probably have to remind you since you seem derelict of historical understanding.

Varg is weird but his music is good, especially his dungeon synth from the late 90s.

>>20709000
You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. That quote is very nationalistic, he hates Christianity for being foreign and Jewish. You don't just make a statement like that unless you're far right.
Here's another one from Quorthon
>I wrote it in a way so that it would create a little havoc. “Under the Runes” is, to begin with, just my way of saying that regardless if it’s in the sky, the land, or deep down in the oceans, we will fight for my father’s gods’ right to have a place in any form of discussion when we discuss Sweden...We tend to think of ourselves as modern, down-to-earth Protestant Christians—healthy Christians. And we never talk about how Sweden was prior to that, more than 900 years ago, because we have a history of 2,000 years of being Ása-faithful, and just 970 years of Christianity. And if they don’t want to talk about it, I’m prepared to fight any kind of war by the great hail, under the runes, for my father’s gods. Because there are certain values, from those times, worth fighting for.
And in creating havoc, being able to talk about what the song is all about, I wrote it so that it would be able to be taken as a Second World War song. Because then I knew people would keep on picking out that lyric, and then I would keep having to answer questions about it, and would get the idea out there.

>>20709047
Ok now reconcile this with the original quote where Quorthon says the world as racist, in the context of Shaming the USA via a critique of structural racism, when he says people care more about "some whites in suit and tie" instead of "five thousand filipinos" or "two millions of africans starving".

Is that far right, or do you just invoke Death of the Author when you feel it's convenient for you? And this was never about far right to begin with anyway, because far right does not necessitate NS, the actual object in question. Far right people can be far right without being NS, again simple logic, unless you're now moving the goalposts to "black metal is inherently far right".

the >black metal is inherently NS guy is basically what happens when you take a /metal/ meme seriously and do none of the homework

Young Varg looked like an elf.

>>20709099
Oh my god the bullshit just doesn't stop. You're using a quote from like a decade and a half after, while the ones I used were when he was making his important stuff. He fucking equates paganism and fighting for "certain values from those times" with Nazism specifically. Like you're just obfuscating it. You're fucking dishonest and a revisionist.

Sarcofago took band photos with hammers and sickles and also released albums on nazi labels, which about sums up the political coherence of black metal. People that take the pageantry seriously are retarded

Wasn't there quite a large neo-nazi scene in Sweden in the 80s and 90s?
I guess it went out of fashion though.

>>20709150
and Rotting Christ grew out of the anarchist punk scene pervasive in Greece, make their left-wing stuff open, and headlined festivals like "Rage Against Racism". tallying this stuff is just garbage for ideological masturbation. black metal is not ""inherently"" anything

>>20708937
What?Varg might not totally support nationalism because he only cares about the preservation of the nordid (essentially neanderthalic according to him) race and not any nationstate.
He still has a positive view on Hitler and somehwat positive on NS.

>>20709166
That wasn't my point. It's just weird how Sweden today is often considered like the most pozzed country in the world but they used to have a surprisingly large amount of neo-nazis desu

>>20709179
There did seem to be a heavy nationalistic and racist streak among their youth.

>>20709140
>People thought I was a neo-nazi satanic Viking who drank blood and ate infants, who lived in a bats cave in the north of Sweden and tons of other stupid things. I figured, if I produced a solo album that was miles from BATHORY, incorporating a little rock, blues and even punk, perhaps the most fanatic nut cases would be scared off.
https://www.deathmetal.org/interview/quorthon-bathory/
>I think there’s something completely wrong with you if you mix Odinism with Nazism and Satanism. All of these three things don’t have anything in common.
http://grimoireofexalteddeeds.com/bathory-interview/#.XrLYa8Bv_cs

Quorthon is the same as Fenriz. Flirted with the imagery for shock value and makes explicit distinctions between pagan Odinism and Nazism (the object in question), later grew out of it. The original contention that black metal is inherently NS has yet to be explained how it holds.

>>20709231
from that same deathmetal.org interview lol
>Do you think that ideology changes the worldview of an artist, and that this is reflected in their music?

>Quorthon: I have personally never allowed for any personal ideologies to influence my music or lyrics. For some years German metal media would say BATHORY was glorifying war and the holocaust in the lyrics. This is not true. We were writing about war and the holocaust in the very same way we were writing about all the other things we have written about; incest, the nuclear arms race, the world wars, the environmental issue, female BATHORY fans, serial killers, religion and fuck knows what else. In other words, as facts, not glorifying. I am not religious and have no political ideals, so for myself personally, writing lyrics is just painting with words and creating a scene.

>>20709231
>>20709231
I'm not saying he didn't grow out of it. I'm saying that his state of mind when making his important records was obviously Nazi whether he wants to deny it years later or not. He very clearly equating his understanding of Paganism with Nazism. He clearly states it. He called Christianity Jewish and foreign. He obviously didn't like foreign ideas and religion in his country. This is his frame of mind when he was making his important records. That is the part that got passed on to Burzum, that is the part that got passed on to the other people burning churches, that was passed on to the early Ns bands that were influential to all of black metal, not just Nsbm.

>>20709179
most swedes live outside the immigrant areas so they don't care.

>>20709320
>I'm saying that his state of mind when making his important records was obviously Nazi whether he wants to deny it years later or not.
You cannot prove his state of mind and he explicitly contradicts this. Regardless, Summoning are anti-fascist, Rotting Christ where anarchist, Immortal is supremely apolitical and countless other examples of influential bands weren't NS so I don't see how this reconciles with black metal being inherently NS. I never looked into it but if you want to go for the fundamental bands then I've never heard of Venom or Hellhammer/Celtic Frost being associated with NS and those bands were mentioned all the fucking time in 90s zine interviews.

>>20709387
He is just contradicting himself in those later interviews. In the quotes I posted he was very much glorifying Paganism which he equated with Nazism. You can't make an album like Blood Fire Death and Hammerheart and include Nazi symbolism in the artwork, double down and make statements like he did then say you're not glorifying it. It's a later contradiction. You're right about Venom and Celtic Frost, but that strain of thought that Bathory was espousing, whether he wants to deny it years later influenced Burzum, who then influenced all of black metal afterwards, including Summoning. Immortal was basically the only band from the second wave that didn't mention these sorts of ideas.These Ideas that continue being mentioned by influential bands that came afterwards like Taake, Drudkh, Grand Belial's Key. That's why I'm saying it's inherent whether there's bands that don't espouse it because even those are influenced by bands that did.

>>20709527
Burzum is hardly the nexus of all consequent black metal. USBM like Von, Profanatica and Havohej sound nothing like Burzum. Everything you're saying is a stretch, first for taking a cherrypicking reading of Quorthon and secondly for doing this guilt by association thing. It's about as meaningful as saying USA's engineering sector is NS because of Operation Paperclip. Summoning, who are anti-fascist and part of left-wing political activism groups, aren't suddenly "inherently NS" in their music because of some measurable proximity to Burzum.

NS bands DO exist, but you cannot extrapolate because of their existence that they are the absolute rule, whether they're influenced by Burzum or not. Even by that logic it wouldn't be difficult to find bands not influenced by Burzum that are playing black metal. Hellhammer/Celtic Frost isn't something you can just toss aside if it doesn't fit into the constellation of your logic. There's nothing inherently NS in them.

>>20709387
>>20709527
Guys I think you are getting lost in the weeds arguing about whether or not Quorthon was NS (as a side note, I've been a Bathory fan for 15+ years and I've never heard anyone argue that he was a nazi). Viewing the scene more broadly, any black metal fan arguing in good faith can surely acknowledge that black metal has a strong ns subculture that is not strictly confined to nsbm. As has already been mentioned, many influential, not-strictly-ns artists such as Burzum have highly questionable politics. The fact that there is even a subgenre for nsbm indicates that a disproportionate amount of bm artists foreground neo-nazi ideology relative to other genres. Actually, I can't think of any other genre of music that is well known (infamous?) for having a "nazi" subgenre. Imagine if there was an entire subgenre of shoegaze for "nazi shoegaze". That would certainly tarnish the reputation of the broader scene if this was more or less tolerated by fans. Going back to the more interesting question posed in this thread:

>>20704951
>>20705403
>>20708634

It's interesting to me how different fans view this issue even as it's playing out in your conversation. It seems many fans want to remain willfully ignorant about these things. Even high profile artists like Mgla are exposed to have (perhaps tenuous) ns ties, make an evasive non-apology, and nobody seems to care. It's a pretty interesting phenomenon specific to bm and yet I don't think most bm fans are neo-nazis. Even this self proclaimed "black metal theory" or whatever they've called it basically ignores the elephant in the room.

>>20708650
Nah there’s a division between lyrical rappers and rappers focused on the “vibe” and these lyrical rappers further divide themselves into the older mold and the current “dark age” that the further sees we’re going into called mumble rap of which they see is solely in the “vibe” group, but these lyricists will write in iambic, trochaic, will use things very akin to sprung verse and anapestic meter, and again their rhymes can even do stuff like making multiple lines use only singular vowels, a lot of it resembles the mahakavya stuff from India when it gets to its most extreme, now it’s terrible content and concept wise but form wise it’s usually very very very well done.

>>20708733
It really depends, the stuff with more focus on disco and r&b can be decent, but a lot of rap especially popular rap is very cheap and of a poor musical quality, I still say it’s of value to study as a Living form of verse which is VERY virtuoso.

>>20709720
The statement in question is whether "black metal is inherently NS", not whether NS exists in black metal. The former suggests that NS is a prerequisite axiom that defines all of black metal, but this is patently absurd because there is black metal that is leftist (Wolves in the Throne Room and other cascadian bands), anti-fascist (Summoning), anarchist (Rotting Christ) or outright communist (RABM). Even Euronymous identified as a communist but I take that about as seriously as Quorthon or Fenriz flirting with nazi imagery. No one can in good faith deny nsbm exists, shit, I listen to fuckloads of it like Kaevum, Fanisk, Goatmoon, Dark Fury, Blazebirth hall, Polish scene etc etc.

The primary contention is that, no, all of black metal is not inherently NS. The fact that NSBM exists as a genre suggests it asserts a quality that ISN'T inherent to black metal, otherwise NSBM as a signifier would be redundant and tautological. Nobody says "blackened black metal".

And I don't think there's anything crazily disproportionate about it. Power electronics (Mikko Aspa is a reference here), industrial and neofolk similarly have nazi associations, but there's nothing about NS being inherent there either. The black metal theory in the OP has compiled essays that explicitly examine NS in black metal as well, using interviews from Famine of Peste Noire.

>BLACK METAL IST FUCKING >KRIEEEEEGGGGG!!!! REEEEEEE
>BLACK METAL
>BLACK METAL IS KRIEEEEEG!!!
>BLACK
>BLACK METAL
>IS
>KRIEEEEEEEGEGEGEGE
>REEEEEEEEE

>>20705554
yup it's grooving time

Finnish Black Metal is supreme
Especially the riffs and scream
Finnish Black Metal is sublime
Best music made in this time

>>20709720
>any black metal fan arguing in good faith can surely acknowledge that black metal has a strong ns subculture that is not strictly confined to nsbm. As has already been mentioned, many influential, not-strictly-ns artists such as Burzum have highly questionable politics.
Thats why im saying its inherent, because its not just that theres a strong subculture of NS bands, but even the non-NS, non-sketchy politics bands are influenced by the ns bands.IT is the only genre this happens in. That's not trivial. The genre itself wouldnt sound how it does without those early nsbm bands.

>>20707919
you're so gay

>>20709785
NS has an influence but it's not absolute... that's the entire point. And if it cannot be demonstrated in every case starting with basic bitch first wave (Hellhammer, Sarcofago, Blasphemy, Master's Hammer) to the degree of being an axiom... then it is not an inherent quality. The genre also wouldn't sound the same without Celtic Frost, seeing as Darkthrone made a career out of it and nobody seriously thinks either Celtic Frost or Darkthrone are NSBM.
>.IT is the only genre this happens in
This is wrong. Neofolk, martial industiral, darkwave and post-punk is rife with it. NSBM is just more globally prominent, or at least relatively speaking for people that pay attention to black metal.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Schwarze_Szene_im_Spannungsfeld_rechter_Ideologien
granted, it has to be translated if you don't read German

>it's another neoliberal larping as leftist seething about NSBM episode
couldn't have kept it to /mu/ now could ya

>>20709928
NSBM is truly the best
NSBM and fuck the rest
NSBM the best in the game
Neoliberal music is truly lame

>>20709756
>>20709785
I will weigh in here and say that I don't think it's "inherently" ns. I'm honestly not sure exactly what that means in this context. Sure there are lots of influential ns bands that have shaped the genre, but that doesn't make the genre itself "inherently" neo-nazi. We could simply cite the thousands of decidedly not ns black metal bands as exhibits and call it at that. However, to make an analogy, take the political philosopher Carl Schmitt, who was right wing (a literal nazi, in fact). Yet his ideas have been influential with left wing academics. To suggest Agamben's ideas relating to biopower are somehow "inherently" fascist due to the influence of Schmitt would be absurd. I deliberately used an analogy that is explicitly in the realm of political ideas to illustrate this. The claim of black metal being "inherently" ns is even more tenuous. Music genres are essentially aesthetic groupings and even then, they are imprecise and fluid across time.

>>20709928
Nobody is seething. it's actually a remarkably civil conversation considering where it's taking place lol.

Todesstoß is very good German black metal.

>>20709975
What do you think about the role black metal, and particularly nsbm, has played in Ukraine? Ukrainian black metal had become quite popular in the decade leading up to it and the largest nsbm festival was held there and had become a recruiting ground for nationalists to join the Ukrainian nationalist cause.

>>20710045
I don't think it has any bearing on how we define the genre. That would be a bit like pointing to Bob Dylan's civil rights anthems as some sort of indicator that folk music must be inherently pro civil rights. Like I said, music genres are fluid and primarily aesthetic categories. Furthermore, they are often defined in relation to other genres (I would have a tough time defining black metal without talking about thrash metal or traditional heavy metal for example) which basically discards the notion of "essential" or "inherent" properties in the first place as characteristics are often relational. That's not to say that we shouldn't speak about ns or that ns bands haven't played an important role in the formation of the genre. I spoke on that in my earlier post-
>>20709720
in which I basically misunderstood what the disagreement was about.

>>20709975
Yeah that's basically what I'm getting at, you have to rest on very tenuous logic to claim an inherent quality of NS to black metal. NS is inherent to NSBM but nothing beyond that. When someone like Famine/Peste Noire says being far-right is inherent to black metal, we know not to take him too seriously because he is prima facie an extremist or entrenched ideologue (I doubt this is controversial to say) and is operating on the typical scene logic that "only that with X property is kvlt/real", a variation of No True Scotsman.

>>20710259
Famine is an anarchist libtard confirmed on his interview.

>>20710267
that sounds fucking hilarious desu but I was going off this other interview >>20704985. maybe being schizophrenically wishy-washy is what's inherent to black metal

>>20710277
In a recent video interview he said he is 20% NS and 80% Anarchist, he also likes to call himself a hooligan.