/lit/ - Literature

show don't tell, my mans

What do you think of the idea that people do not die so much as life is given to them and death is simply them remembering the truth?

>>20699676
How about you show some bitches instead of telling me you have them?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HsLfrpEAfB8

So this is the /wg/ podcast? How do I get on it?

shouldn't each characters actions be their own paragraph like their dialogue?
i liked the fight scene

>>20699704
Fuck off Gardner.

>>20699676
showing my weekly /lit/ magazine

>>20699710

>>20699714

>>20699717

>>20699719

>>20699721

>>20699723

Did the anon that asked about the 600 words of fresh cringe find it last thread? Will repost if needed.

>>20699725

>>20699731

>>20699734

Chinaman anon here. Time to join daily editing anon...

Day 1 - Chapter 1.

>Things are going great, get to a daily word count of 700
>Leave the country for a week for my brother's birthday
>Don't write
>Come back
>Writer's block
Fuck man

>>20699738
miniMAGsubmissions@gmail.com if you want to appear in the next issue

>>20699739
I'm in shanghai, how's your greencode?

>>20699743
I'm in America. My story is about Chinamen.

How is Shang Hai? Never been, always wanted to though.

>>20699743
shang hai? more like goodbye shang.

>>20699752
it was awesome up until the lockdowns. I got stuck in my studio apartment for 70 days straight

but I guess for a lot of /lit/ folk that's kind of the dream, right?

Why can't I write? I know the writing I posted here has no spark at all.
I want to make a videogame with good writing since I don't have enough money as to make a movie with this plot, I know it's solid, if well done it's a classic of sci fi.

>>20699761
Well, now that you mentioned it that was the time when I thought of a story idea I actually enjoyed.

>>20699759
the only social functions these days are farewell parties

>>20699767
How long have you been attempting this?
Do you have a collection of books to read?
How often do you share your writing with others?

>>20699705
You can have an entire paragraph about a character and his actions or reactions. But if you bring up other characters in the same paragraph doing shit, it'll get confusing real soon.

Just gonna post this once more. Would you read this? This the introductory paragraph to my story.

--
Everyone had a dream, Yun knew it. Luko, his friend, dreamt of becoming a soldier, of fighting in war and becoming a hero to be remembered and renowned. His little sister, he knew, dreamt of marrying a noble prince, of becoming a princess and a high queen. His mother and father had a dream too, that's why they had left that day. But Luko, slow and helpless as he was, would never become a great a hero—Yun was the one who would always save him from the other kids. And his sister, with her toothless grin would never even meet a prince, let alone come to marry one. And his parents, even their dream was futile, for they had failed to return. No Yun did not have a dream—he had a purpose. He would journey across the continent, he would cross the Scar as they did, all the way to the Other Side, and he would save his parents. Because they were waiting.
--

The pov is meant to be a 12 year old so it's kinda meant to read a bit childish. Please tell me what you guys think?

>>20699805
I think it sounds like a fine premise, I could see it as a laika movie.

>>20699805
just a little bit of setting would go a long way. When you say soldier are we in the 1800's? is this a modern sniper? my brain has nothing to latch onto except these very abstract terms

>>20699805
>Luko, his friend, dreamt of becoming a soldier, of fighting in war and becoming a hero to be remembered and renowned.
This sentence is a tad run-on for my taste, try shortening it to something like this
"His friend Luko dreamed of becoming a soldier. A hero to be remembered."
>But Luko, slow and helpless as he was, would never become a great a hero
Too obvious.
"But he had some problems. Witless Luko always needed Yun around to protect him from the other kids."
>And his sister, with her toothless grin would never even meet a prince
Poor grammar.
"[Sister] wanted to marry a prince. But how could she manage that with a toothless grin?"
Really good idea, just needs some clean-up done.

>>20699805
The idea itself is good and interesting but there's a few things I'd nitpick here regarding sentence structure and a bit of redundancy.
>Everyone had a dream, Yun knew it.
It reads awkwardly, you might want to re-write it so it conveys the sentiment that everyone that Yun knows has a dream to make the contrast between their dreams and his purpose stand out. The reason I point this out is that stating everyone has a dream makes it self-evident that Yun would know this, so you need something else to grab the reader's attention.

The other two anons gave good ideas to refine the introduction too, make your setting more distinct so that we have a clearer picture of the childish protagonist seeking to save his parents.

Thank you, other anon. I needed a proper example.

>>20699767
>Why can't I write?
You just written your own post
>I know the writing I posted here has no spark at all.
Have you posted anything else or even extended that short paragraph youve been spamming here for days?
>I want to make a videogame with good writing since I don't have enough money as to make a movie with this plot
And you don't think you will need money for a video game too?

>>20699816
Thanks!
>>20699834
>"[Sister] wanted to marry a prince. But how could she manage that with a toothless grin?"
This is really good. Thanks anon. I don't put enough questions in my narration. I like your other criticism too.
>>20699817
>>20699846
I don't think it's necessary for the setting to be immediately clear within the first paragraph.
>It reads awkwardly, you might want to re-write it so it conveys the sentiment that everyone that Yun knows has a dream to make the contrast between their dreams and his purpose stand out.
Yea you're right. I'll change that.

>>20699767
Everything you said has already been answered. It seems like you want to be reaffirmed everything you have already been told for some weird reason. Go get tested for autism. Get some irl friends. See a mentor. And then you can start on your writing career

>>20699846
Also, here's my quick attempt at it:
Everyone Yun knew had a dream. Dull, powerless Luko dreamed of becoming a revered hero, his toothless little sister fancied herself worthy of being a noble prince's wife and even his parents had left them in pursuit of an unknown fantasy.
What he had was not a dream but purpose. He would not be saved by someone stronger, nor would he wait to be married. Those with purpose make plans and set goals, and he knew what was to be done: To cross the Scar as his parents did and to save them.

>>20699877
I don't mean going full LOTR, what the other anon is commenting about is that the setting is so vague as to not give a clear picture of what one should be seeing.

>>20699860
I think that reads a lot better Anon.

>>20699909
Yeah. I think I let my pride in my writing blind me somewhat before I tried my hand at it.

>>20699860
Good job on this anon, it flows much better than your previous one.

>>20699860
Good job you listened

>>20699860
I want to edit this, but I'm lost as fuck as to the amount of players and who's taking what damage at the start.

>>20699942
Age of Decadence fanfic (yes, I am autistic, I think)

Neleos is the guild chapter leader, Fulvio was the lookout, Coltan is an alchemist who uses poisoned crossbow bolts, and Agatai is some tough as fuck not!Mongol who got stuck in a town he despises for some reason. The descriptions for most of the assassinations/critical strike dialogue are just 'and then you killed him,' so I didn't think of including them. Everyone is undamaged save for the first two.

Can I post a chapter of my twink assassin story again?

>>20699961
is it smut?

>>20699860
I dropped this tripe. Get good, fag.
>>20699665
You will never ever be writers, losers.

>>20699962
No

>>20699968
then why do you lead with twink?

What kind of arc does your protagonist go through?
>Starts the story as a lost and confused sonuvabitch who doesn't really know what he is (He's a genetically modified thingamajig)
>Slowly meets both friends and enemies alike, and this allows him to forge his own identity as a person.
>Turns out to be a very idealistic and innocent person at his core.
>Continues fighting and interacting with other characters.
>However, eventually the main villain of the story decides "Fuck it, you're ripe, so I'll fight you so I can have a worthy challenge"
>The main villain kills him while basically thinking "Yeah, this was a mistake. Still not a ripe challenge. Whatever, time to go force all of these dudes to destroy civilization because it's the right thing to do"
>However, our MC seemingly revives from the dead, empowered as some kind of bio-revenant, but at the cost of his sanity, which leads him into maiming all of his former allies. He then proceeds to face down the main villain and fights him on equal footing before finally killing him.
>The "Transformation" ceases, he collapses, ends up getting back up, and then spends a fuckton of time recovering his ability to reason. But his innocence and optimism were lost forever because of his near-death experience and subsequent resurrection/rampage
>Story ends with him alone as he wonders if he's even himself, but he steels his newfound resolve for what might happen next.
Basically, innocence is lost for resolve to be gained.

>>20699953
>Age of Decadence
I will read it your book

>>20699977
My protagonist starts out as an innocent and naive prince who mourns his father's death and recklessly says in a moment of breakdown that he will defeat the ones who did it even if the culprit is Death itself. By the end it turns out he is actually the Death of this world and he ends up killing his mirror image, who is the reason behind his father's death.

>>20699979
Guard or Boatman?

>>20699993
Neat

>>20699993
zero to a hundred

>>20699975
Because being an androgynous twink is very important to the story. Read Chapter 1.

Anyone got experience writing branching storylines? The outline and focus must be kept laser focused on the themes, tight. But writing and filling out things vertically is a challenge, a meandering story could work, with enough talent, which I don't have. That's how it is.
>>20699772
I have lots of books I've read, mostly into eccentric ones.
>How often do you share your writing with others?
Never, I mostly write worldbuilding and flowcharts, create and detail characters, shots.
>>20699863
After that failure, I can't write again until I research further into proof that I could be good.
Easier to fund a game than to fund a movie.
>>20699889
Fuck off.

>>20699977
though subject to change these are the broad strokes.
>found as a baby in the woods
>raised by the farmer who found him
>most of his childhood is normal
>age 7 he is put in a hostage situation with what he thought was a monster he kills it
>its actually a werewolf
>he is scarred by doubt of if it was really right to kill something that is or was human
>pesters everyone he can about how he can be strong enough to not be put in that situation again
>lifts his feelings away
>years of training physically and magically pass
>goes to magic school
>terrorist attack kills his best friend
>more training and school
>joins army
>climbs ranks
>goes to reserve to have time to have a family
>by 30 he realizes he hasn't aged a day since 25
>insert adventures here
>ends up out living everyone he knows
>becomes a king who rules well but he just puts on a happy face
>he doesn't have another wife or children since he knows they will wither and die before he does
>eventually puts himself in suicidal missions
>after a time he feels there is nothing left
>wants to die but feels guilty over leaving the people of his kingdom without a king which he knows will lead to wars after his death
>starts funding and raising orphans
>grooms one to replace him as king and set up a dynasty
>decides instead of killing himself he puts himself to sleep and says to wake him if something apocalyptic happens
now I could end it at many different places here by just doing the child grooming and content with sleeping part earlier.
or if this story actually gains traction and I don't hate writing it when that happens I could have him wake up thousands of years in the future in a post apocalyptic setting.

>>20700014
this is fucking smut.

>>20700007
Thanks. The funny thing is that he yells about this to a statue of the hero, and it took me months to realize that the only fitting conclusion was for him to fight that same person.

>>20700011
Definitely, everything goes to shit in the second half and it's remarkable because the world has already gone to shit and most people just don't remember it.

>>20700014
this reads like smut, anon

>>20700037
>>20700035
please just read past the first 2 paragraphs...

>>20700047
WHY IS HIS ASS TIGHTENING, ANON

>>20700048
He tells you. From Habit or Instinct. He no longer could tell.

>>20700014
>gets sucked and fucked 40 times
anything for the mission of course

>>20700018
You're not going to make it as you said many times yourself so why keep posting here? bitching on /lit/ for 8 hours a day is a coping mechanism for your lack of talent and you wouldn't be here asking questions so much and instead at the writing table coming up with ideas. Don't force your mind to do something that is above and beyond because It will only bring massive disappointment. You will soon make peace with it and go do something else that is in your lane and prosper at that. But writing is just a pipe dream.

>>20700067
I only need dialogue, the rest, my knowledge of films will save me.

>>20699996
I first beat it with guard, but thief was my favorite playthrough. Never dabbled with boatman for some reason but someday if like to play through that and praetor

how controversial would be to use christianism elements in a fantasy story? in a non-offensive way of course
this seems common in asian media and themselves use symbolism from their religions, but I feel that in the west or at least america it would be seen as offensive despite bearing a positive message

>>20700079
Eh, thief was too restricted for my tastes. Levir's brand of power-hungry cunt rubbed me the wrong way.

>>20700075
Nah it's over. Time to let go of that dream and do something else. Maybe welder or truck driver. You've been struggling long enough and you or anybody here see any hope for you.

>>20700092
*don't see any hope

>>20699977
To put it in a way that doesn't expose the whole plot:
>A "pure" but amoral and violent being gradually develops human flaws and "falls" from a sort of grace, becoming an equally terrifying being capable of things like pride and hatred.
>It also, much too late, learns the value of people and comes to understand emotional pain, allowing it to finally understand its creators and the reason for its existence.
>Then, out of guilt but also its core desire to perform its duty, it does 9/11 times a million and God thanks it for its service by adjusting another universe so that it will develop again, but experience a different life and destiny where it can become more than a tool for killing. This may or may not be because I want to hook the book in to the plot of a different novel I've written because a version of this protagonist was a side character in that novel.
That last plot point is a bit crazy but it makes sense in context. No I'm not going to provide the context.

>>20700092
You think I mind failure? I'll be dead soon enough, might as well be, bullet to the brain, end it.
I'll go until I have to, never was one for waiting around sitting. I don't give a shit if people see hope in me or not, I do what I do, what I can and must.
I'll make that game, I'll find a way.

>>20700084
I don't see a issue with it myself, and I was raised Mennonite, still consider myself Christian.
in my own story I will be partly basing a theocracy on the eastern orthodox church and the Catholic church.
partly because I like picking on the cathies.

>>20699860
>>20699953
Ok I tried.
The newcomer didn't waste any time.

He charged, slashing at Coltan and laying his rib-cage bare. The old man fell back against the wall, fingers weakly grasping for a crossbow as death approached. Dodging a bolt, his eyes landed on Atagai frantically reloading his weapon opposite side of the shack.

"Please!" Coltan begged.

Convulsions rocked the alchemist as the kopesh carved left to right exposing entrails to the air.

A bolt flew past his head as he retreated to the workstation for cover.

Loading a third arrow, the Ordu pursued cautiously into the darkened area. Then, realizing it put him at a disadvantage, drew his own sickle blade and waited at the edge of the room's light. There was a whistling noise emanating from blackness.

Atagai reacted too slow.

The bolas wrapped around his throat, childish tool strangling him, and bringing him to his knees.

Stepping out of darkness, the stranger brought his khopesh through the kneeling man's head, removing a chunk of skull. Lurching backwards, the mutilated foe freed his throat, and rose to his feet. Blood pouring down his face, Atagai stumbled forward, in a last ditch effort. He pulled back an arm to strike then collapsed to the ground.

A smile adorned the victor's face, a wave of triumph surging through him. Alone, he defeated an entire chapter of hardened warriors without a scratch.

His elation faded, lips falling to a thin line.

It had been too easy.

>>20700097
>never was one for waiting around sitting
You've been sitting in these threads for the past 4 days for 8 hours having pity party on yourself. If you really did take writing seriously you would have been at the writing table. If you are struggling with writers block you would be researching for new ideas. If you do mind failure you wouldn't get overdramatic over some criticism.

>>20700114
I researched, just help me with the dialogue anon, what should I do?

>>20700107
this edit reads like it could use its own edits

>Chekhov's gun

>>20700145
>he said, despite never even having read anything by Chekhov

>>20700134
>what should I do
I cant write your book for you. You have to figure that out that yourself. What's the subject of the conversation going to be about? What are the characters personalities? Why is the conversation taking place? Etc. This are questions you have to ask yourself when writing. It's all up to you to get an idea and write that out

>>20700163
It's not a book, it's a game.
I have most personalities well defined but it mostly takes place inside one head, so one dialogue. It's not stream of consciousness though, would be unbearable in the format.
I have things defined, what kind of words they would use the most, their analogies, how complex they can get with their speech, what ideas they reveal on the surface, what they really mean on the inside, the source code of conversation, subterfuge.

>>20700134
Tell the story in one sentence.
Then tell it in two or three sentences.
Then for each of those sentences write it as two or three sentences.
Then do the same for each of those sentences.
Do this a few times then you'll have all your chapters.
Do this a few times more and then each sentence will represent a page or so which should be a manageable amount to write.
Although language is a linear structure, it has a top down hierarchical organization. This is true of sentences, but also of larger structures, such as books.
Stop thinking of writing beginning to end, but top to bottom instead. This is what's keeping you from beginning, because the beginning is not actually beginning. It's the top.

>>20700162
I sure hope you've never used the phrase Achille's heel without having read the Iliad

>>20700169
>I have things defined, what kind of words they would use the most, their analogies, how complex they can get with their speech, what ideas they reveal on the surface, what they really mean on the inside, the source code of conversation, subterfuge

You should watch some noir movies for reference. Preferably the man who wasn't there. The movie takes place as a dialogue inside the man's head reacting to the outside world around him similar to your story. Read first person fiction books for reference too. It doesnt seem you read enough fiction so read first person fiction books for reference too. All the ideas would come to fruition.

>>20700199
I read non fiction mostly and books which while eccentric, have nothing in common with what I want besides themes.
I've seen movies like the one I want to make, very sparse dialogue or naturalistic, simulators.
>>20700191
Good exercise, I came up with a very different sentence than I thought I would.

Which is more impactful during a combat scene? To describe an action or to describe it's effects?

ie.

>Sneed slashed at Chuck with his sword and Chuck met the blow with his shield. With a loud crack, the shield dented in.

vs

>His sword slammed into Chuck's shield and, with a loud crack, the shield dented in.


I genuinely do not know how to word this question, although I know what I'm asking, so I'll give another example. I've heard that in the Witcher series, Sapkowski describes the impact or damage the weapon does rather than the actual act of the weapon being used, so I wonder if this is true or if I'm completely misremembering something. Because if it is true, then it seems like an interesting way of structuring a fight scene, and I'd like to try it out.

Day 37 editing
Chapter 40 done
Yesterday i ran into a QT3.14 redhead.
I just wanted some cheese and bacon buns.
I hope that my recurrent red pubed thoughts dont destabilize my writing...

>>20700212
>I read non fiction mostly
Then switch your habits and start reading more fiction. This is where you struggle Is coming from you want to write fiction but you don't read it enough to understand basic literary form. Lots of famous fiction writers had to start from reading to be able to become writers. Your brain is basically a muscle once you read enough your lateral side of the brain will get stronger and stronger overtime

>>20700220
I like the top more myself.

>>20700195
I read the Iliad when I was 12, so I actually haven't committed such a horrible crime

>>20700079
>>20699979
just for you anon
only really felt like i needed advice on the fight scene

>>20700258
Don't tell me you're writing your story on notepad without even word wrap on...

Rewrote the begining of my sports drama.
Toned down Sange's character a bit.
Introduced the coach.
Fluffed things up and took some anon suggestions.
Critique please.
Be real, don't just be a hater.

https://pastebin.com/j9ytfz9P

Here, rate the story that I am writing for my future family as it stands so far.

>In a kingdom by the sea, in a castle on a hilltop, lived a young princess and her family. This castle, though it was granted that title, was not the mighty guardian of a realm, towering over the wavering fields of grains and grasses, frightening foreign foes and brigands alike; nor was it the splendid palace of an emperor, glimmering with gold and white marble whose pale glory shone in the breaking dawn, the envy of the whole world. No, this little castle, named "Pomp" by its former owner, a baron of that name, with its lonely crenellated tower and rusticated rubble masonry, sat meanly on its little mound, content to watch over its little village in the valley below. Inside the keep were no silk tapestries, no gold chargers, no silver knives. But two great hearths, one on each storey, kept it warm through the winter; and a feather bed, which could bear the whole family and certainly dwarfs the bed on which you or your parents sleep, protected them in the night.
>When the sun broke in the eastern sky, there were no grooms tending the horses in the stables. No cooks boiled stew or baked bread in the kitchens, and no scullery-maids carried the linens outside to dry. There were, in fact, no servants at all. If you have ever seen a princess's castle, or any castle at all which is not cracked and drafty and ruined, you will know that such places have all manner of maids and footmen and pages running to and fro in an impossibly busy manner. But this princess was very unlike most princesses, for her father was not the king of this land. Neither was his father before him, nor his grandfather, not even his great-grandfather; but his great-great-grandfather, King Henry, whose throne was stolen and life taken by a usurper, was the last in a long line of kings of his family. When a king loses his throne, and his family is alive, those who support him will always call him king, and his sons and daughters princes and princesses. So it was with Henry's sons and daughters. Many years had passed, and hardly anyone even remembered his family, but those who did still called them by their rightful titles.
>What would the ruling king say of this? you might ask. As it turns out, very little; for Henry (and the usurpers who followed him) was king of an island called Bergonsey, and our princess lived far away from there, where no one in Bergonsey knew of her. So it was all right for the villagers to call her a princess of Bergonsey, since the current king did not know.
>Now one day, even before light slipped into the castle's eastern windows, our princess was sitting on the beach, watching the water wash ashore, as was her wont when her soul was low and could not elsewise be lifted. Her eyes fluttered from the rolling ocean to what few lights in the sky had not yet been snuffed out.

>>20700329
Oh yeah and paste bin blocked the word retarded. I had to change it to re-tarted. Apparently retarded is too offensive.

I’m pooing for the first time in the loo, sirs.

>>20700326
oh no, i just copy and pasted so the snip would be all on one page

>>20700351
Better.

>>20700329
And I didn't edit it yet, I'm in a rush. I'll edit it later. It gives it character. Fuck off.

>>20700329
>Also my daughter is re-tarted and my wife left me…
I actually audibly laughed, was this supposed to be a joke?

Anyway I find the storytelling a dime in a dozen. I can't find anything that stands out except for the time metaphor which was impressively well written. Unless you write more and branch out the characters then it's up to judge.

The way its written seemed very rush. There is no introduction to any of the basketball players, the new coach and why he's there. the dialogue is very underwritten and simplistic. The way he just spat out his divorce and his child out of nowhere was forced as hell. You can explain the content of the details but don't just rush in to it. Lots of editing to do but there is some potential here

>>20700415
>I actually audibly laughed, was this supposed to be a joke?
I am attempting to deconstruct the sports-drama genre. Coach Blackman will continue to very plainly state his character arc.

>The way its written seemed very rush. There is no introduction to any of the basketball players, the new coach and why he's there. the dialogue is very underwritten and simplistic.

Thank you for all the feedback.

ah 1k+ words a day

I just finished a chapter with a blowjob in it and sent it to my mom to read.

>>20700351
hey sange, yesterday you critiqued the idea of duality being necessary in life

i still say being creatures programmed to exist within a very narrow environment to survive, we are primed to be able to enjoy things without having to suffer to understand enjoyment. we are literally primed to exist in that narrow band of comfort

pain can be enlightening sure, but it's not necessary in the least. the rich and powerful dont go out of their way to suffer or observe suffering for them to continue enjoying their steaks and champagne

yours is just the poor man's take on spirituality. you dont have to go to everest to know it's a high place. you dont have to be burned to know fire is hot.

but thanks i guess. i have to come to terms with the fact that people are looking for thought out explanations of conceptions instead of flat answers.

content for the sake of enlightenment

And, well, I think I may have taken some advice too much to heart.

>>20700587
yeah, too fanciful in your writing. it's fighting, it should be straight forward with flourishes or clumsy prose where necessary

>>20700547
I find that people who live in too much comfort start to invent suffering. Either they stand up for a cause, get some second-hand suffering from people in a worse way than themselves, or they turn to drugs or become drama-infested ninnies.
I believe humans are meant to struggle and overcome obstacles. Too much comfort and they start to get weird. The rich and powerful might enjoy their steak dinner but the idea they don't struggle and suffer is short sighted. It's probably stressful running a company or being in an important position where you are relied on.
People born into wealth or came to it easily without much to challenge them get weird in the head. Seen it a million times.

So yeah, I believe suffering is necessary.

>>20700602
that was well said. i have nothing to add because i agree with you.

>>20700532
Legendary.

>>20700594
It would be one thing if it were life and death, like in the case of the previous scene I provided. I took the more fanciful/playful tone to illustrate how beyond the protag is to some common thugs. It's more of a game to him than a threat, much less a challenge.

Also, that fight in-game is super trivial if you do that simple trick of hiding in the shack. Although, the axe guy has fucked up my flawless encounters way too many times with that goddamn axe.

>>20700329
Lame, generic, unstylish trash. Unless you hit this with a slasher plot where the coach hunts and kills the basketball kids, similar to the movie Class of 1984, this will turn out just another mediocre sports book that no one will read

>>20700329
For at least the tenth time that year Andy had opened his locker to find a letter had been placed there. It was a simple folded piece of paper with the distinct scent of a girl coming off of it. Another love confession he would have to go deal with after school. It was always such an annoyance.
His interest in dating matched his interest for just about every other aspect of school life. Every day it was nothing more than classes he had to get through and social hierarchies he had to navigate. That afternoon he made short work of the timid little girl who had apparently fallen for him. He did not want to be cruel, but he did not possess the tact to let someone down easily.
“I’m sorry,” he said after meeting with her on the roof. She clenched her hands at her heart, the hopeful innocence already fading from her eyes. “It won’t work out. I have no time for relationships and I find you bland regardless.” With the heavens granting a flair for the dramatic, a cool wind blew. He turned away from her, hands buried deep into his pockets, leaving her sobbing as she crumbled to the ground.
Love? That is something he did not understand.

What's a good example of a character that's actually their own character beyond being a plot device. Figuring out what people want to see characters do beyond their part in the plot trips me up.

>>20700722
Sange and Andy are going to end up in a gay relationship. Andy's dad is going to kick their asses because he's a homophobe. Coach Blackman is driving by and intervenes then takes Sange and Andy to the psyche ward to meet his retarded daughter and teaches them about life and responsibility while she keeps faceplanting her applesauce.

Also I'm not gay. I watched gay porn for research purposes but I'm not gay.

>>20700769
Huh? Characters should direct the plot, not vice versa.

>>20700812
But what does that mean, how does either example look like? I've seen Frodo and Sam and Gollum being called plot devices because all their dynamic accomplishes are the conditions to destroy the ring, what the hell else did they need on top

>>20700819
Well, in something I'm writing.

>MC is kind of an asshole
>Best Friend doesn't like MC being too much of an asshole
>Best Friend sets someone after MC, which he knows will cause a domino effect
>MC kills person best friend sent after
>MC precedes to take over shit
>Best friend's plan goes too well
>MC is now kingpin of crime

>>20699977
>starts as average, hardworking kid that likes his dad
>loses all respect for his dad who fails him
>goes his own way and fails after his dad is gone
>tries to recapture the wisdom of his father
>becomes happy but years later doubt crushes him again
>finally understands and relates to his father and despair starts
not my diary by the way

>>20700808
Come on take this seriously. You obviously hate true criticism which is the reason why you deflect everytime someone gives you it. I see no story here. The plot is bland and I could name dozens of movies similar to your story from the 90s. Shelve this story until you can come up with a better idea or give it me and I can improve it. Other than that this is a story that I can't see publishers wasting their time on

>>20700162
Interestingly Chekhov's gun was to him more about economy on the stage but today it has really become heavily related to "the rule of three" when you want to establish in the reader's mind what is possible.
NTA but I have read Chek's collected short stories. "On the Way" is one of my favorites. Also in my opinion "an Inadvertence" is one of his funniest stories, I still laugh thinking about it.

lets say someone important to the protagonist dies (or seemingly dies) and they attempt suicide upon finding out. should the reader know why that someone meant so much to the protagonist BEFORE they died or during/after the protagonist attempts suicide?

from what i learned, expo should come after events to maintain curiosity. maybe i'm wrong

>>20700866
I said thank you every time I got criticism so far. Stop making things up about me. And I am taking it serious. Coach Blackman is meant to fill a very specific role.

>>20700890
I think this depends on what you want people to feel when your protagonist attempts suicide. For example, if you had a protag whose opening act was trying to kill himself because someone died you'd want the relationship to be after but for obvious reasons you'd typically want this build-up to happen before so people actually care about this character and their relationship.

>>20700892
The gay plot line is ridiculous though and I can't see that making a very good story. This is like every YA LGBT novel ever and I can't see that making the shelf.

>>20700890
Drop a hint or two beforehand, explain afterwards. I think you're right about having to maintain curiosity. You could even have the hints be slightly misleading so the reader doesn't predict the exact nature releationship too far ahead of your explaination, again, keep them interested.

>>20700329
this is boring prose and you tell a lot

you should never post a first draft by the way esp not a rushed one

>>20700914
It's all about execution. When I'm done I think you'll be impressed.
I plan for Sange and Andy's rivalry to mirror Mozart and Amedaus. Except instead of piano it's basketball, and it results in ass fucking. Andy is stoic but learns to open himself up (literally) and let himself be valnerable.

>>20700952
>Mozart and Amadeus
Do you mean Mozart and Salieri?

>>20700936
Thank you for the feedback.
>>20700959
Probably.

>>20700959
Yeah, that one, mixed up the names.
That works better because I can change Sange's name to Sal. Sal and Andy, Salieri and Amedaus.

>>20699686
Suck some dick

>>20700890
Only if they want it to write it that way

>>20700923
I think you should break a leg

I wrote my first draft quite quickly, with my internal editor mostly shut as I was merely writing the story through. Now that, after some weeks of keeping my distance to the work, I came back to do a read through making notes, I can see there is so much cringeworthy stuff here, and noticing it I tell myself, good job. Not because I have written cringe, but because I notice cringe for what it is. There are so many people who self-publish (I will never self-publish, even if I am never accepted for trad-pub) and they could never tell if their works were cringe.

>>20701051
Based, same ideology here.

>>20700258
IMHO would be nice if it slowed down so the scene/characters could be fleshed out. As it it is almost Iike a summary of a cutscene and lacks a lot of sensory details/POV reflections. I'd rather read about them all drinking coffee and debating life than effortlessly slitting throats.

>>20701051
Pretty good prose. Where's the rest of the work?

>>20701119
Sir, I am almost blushing. I just wrote the sentences how they came, like a train of thought. Rest of the work is in my Scrivener file ;)

>>20700890
Nobody thinks, "oh, in hindsight, I maybe should've felt bad about that" after receiving some hamfisted explanation after the event. If you want your reader to feel anything at all, you absolutely have to give them a reason to well BEFORE shit happens. Disrupting the scene itself with some infodump is no less terrible.

>>20700890
>>20701178
I mean, if he even had to ask this, there is a serious problem. The fact that he's using an anime avatar in his message tells a lot also, and thus I don't wonder why he would have difficulty understanding simple, real human emotions.

>>20701178
i don't like flashbacks as much as the next guy but wouldn't the info dump coming beforehand lead to predictability?

>>20701209
Why do you think info dumping is the only way to convey information about the relationship of the protagonist and his friend? Jesus Christ, help me in this cruel world where I have to endure people like this.

>>20701119
that prose isnt even good and his probably esl

Sometimes I have this argument about why flashbacks are bad but I want to know why you consider them bad in your own words.

>>20701245
slows down plot progression

>>20701245
>>20701253
It depends on the book, it depends on do you have time for it. Depends on how important it is for the story because I could mean the world of importance for knowing the character or something else. But of course, there are other ways to introduce information about a character's past.

>>20701231
English is a second language to me. What of it?

>>20701253
I see this used a lot in manga, and aside from what you said I'd also argue that it messes with pace. Something you see being done on-screen typically won't feel the same if it's done in a flashback, so it's interesting to consider how such a thing affects the flow of your story.

I've sent a short story off for publication... wish me luck everybody, I've got a good feeling about this one

>>20701305
Best of luck, anon.

>>20701245
>>20701275
An ideal flashback is one where it, in and of itself, is a self-contained narrative with a beginning, middle and end. Because it's a story within a story, it should be used in a place where there's room for it, not during any point in the narrative with immediate urgency.

But, most of the time, flashbacks are just used to fluff out exposition dumps to absurd lengths. A character saying, "I was traumatized by this event," is enough. We don't need to see the week of their life before/after it and ESPECIALLY not when there's something actively happening in the story at that moment. This is what 99% of flashbacks in manga are like -- pointless wastes of time.

Is there someone here who does not write manga/anime/xianxia/whateverelseshitthereis besides me?

>>20701337
That might explain why I liked a particularly lengthy flashback, it was an entire story on its own and it was something that the person in question would otherwise never tell, but it was also necessary to understand his actions in later parts of the story. As you said flashbacks tend to be pretty clumsy and at worst they completely disrupt pacing.

>>20699685
Seems fitting for a warrior culture.

>>20701343
me
but don't be too hard on manga writers, at least they're being exposed to some real literature and hopefully are studying from the OP

>>20701363
I’ve seen the OP pasta turn worse and worse. It used to be neutral and had good info but now it’s just saying: you should self publish and please write anime.

>>20701245
Flashbacks are just a mega lazy way to patch up plot holes and inject previously unplanned plot elements. They're a duct tape solution to weak writing, a patch in the hull of a leaking ship, gross interruptions to the flow of the narrative, always out of place, never not awkward. Whenever one comes up in a story, all I see is the author yelling, "wait! This most awesome idea just came to me!" and I realize he was just winging it the whole time. I can't think of one good reason to have a flashback in your story.

>>20701370
What if its a flashback into an adult character's childhood?

>>20701383
Entirely pointless.

>>20701361
Interesting. I'm almost certain there has to be a culture out there that has the same philosophy, though in this case I intend for such a thing to be the truth and for it to be the driving goal behind my antagonist's actions.

>>20701370
This is so true, though for me the worst part is that your investment in the character is just killed when the writer diverges into a flashback instead of letting the story be told naturally.

>>20701343
Someone told me my book sounds literary enough so I guess there's me.

>>20701245
I don't consider them bad

>>20701343
Mine isn't manga either, it's just fun to think of how the story could look like in manga form.

>>20701343
I just write whatever man.

Okay so I'm hung up on this idea about a serial killer hunting their next victim.
So one chapter is dedicated to just searching for their prey, but then the next three are just about the escalating chase.
To me, three full chapters is just too much for a long chase scene, but I can't think of any sideplot to run with the story.
The serial killer has a one track mind to hunt this person, they aren't going to stop to do some sidequest. But that in itself makes the story weak because it's literally just a search/hunt, chase, cooldown, search/hunt, chase, chase, chase, end
Any advice? I'm not going to change perspectives, the story is on the shoulder of the killer the whole time even though I understand it'd be easier to just give a couple chapters to the target to flesh out their perspective.

I'm asking /lit/ because this has been on my mind since last month. I leave it alone a couple days or a week, then come back to it and just hit the same ideas and talking points. I need another way to look at it.

>>20701245
i think "iron man 1" had flash backs
it was effective in that movie
my guess is that it's easy to confuse the reader if you do it wrong

>>20701370
I disagree with this. Sometimes you need to start the mystery in the middle, that's how it becomes a mystery. Trying to force everything to happen in the present can lead to writing yourself into a corner.

The reader is going to be bored and probably drop your book if you start the story before getting to the haunted mansion, instead of starting it with the protag waking up inside slowly elaborating why they came there.

>>20701540
thriller novels are often chase scenes from beginning to end. "born identity," is one big chase scene

>>20701558
I think interactivity and duration are also an issue. A flashback only conveys information to the reader so you're already losing a lot of weight by not having all of this laid out to the characters organically, but if you had something like a PTSD flashback that might be a different story.

>>20701559
I think what that anon is saying is that there's ways to relay this information in a manner that's not divorced from the characters at large.

>>20701559
>instead of starting it with the protag waking up inside slowly elaborating why they came there.

Are you trying to tell me this can't be done without flashbacks? And don't start stories with the protagonist waking up, god damn it!

>>20701558
Are you one of those morons who think books are movies in text?

>>20701587
a story is a story, retard

Day 2 edit chapter 2.

Why do I feel like the more I edit the worse the story gets?

>>20701647
Leave it alone for a while and work on something else, give yourself time to forget about it.
Probably heard that a hundred times but it's true.

>come up with a kino line and kino line delivery to set the tone of a character
>in my native language
>no idea how to translate it to english

>>20701565
there are other things happening during bourne though, the cia are plotting behind the scenes, and bourne is rediscovering his past, by the end bourne solves the mystery of why everything is happening

there is no mystery for my serial killer to solve, they're withholding information from the reader, the prey simply exists for them to catch, the hidden motives are revealed in a later book

Is Query tracker legit? Where do I find agents?

>>20701732
this is my worry
once I finish my novel I'll need to hire translators to publish in other markets
I fear they'll fuck up the delivery
I'll have no idea how good the book is because I won't know that language

>>20701645
Yep, a moron, as expected

>>20701337
But then you run the risk of having a flashback that is better than the rest of the story

How do I put cool writing into my Role-Playing Video Game without slowing it down too much so it becomes a glorified audiobook like Disco Elysium (because I'm not as good as Robert Kurvitz to have the writing carry the whole show)

>>20701866
am I the only one who thought berserk was just stupid
it was an alright but extremely boring tell of a band of mercs, then suddenly demons and shit
how it's developed such a cult following I'll never know

>>20701945
>then suddenly demons and shit
Literally the first page is Guts fucking a demon and killing it
The first three volumes are all about Guts killing monsters
You didn't read it

>>20701937
You're also making vidya? Nice.
Same, not good enough, he's on another league.

>>20701866
I really don't know if the golden age would have been better without the black swordsman arc or not
On one hand knowing about the betrayal that is to come contribute to it's Greek tragedy's quality
On the other it makes the climax and its supernatural elements less surprising
Either way the arc is so long I don't think it can be called a flashback, it would be more accurate to call the first 3 volumes a flashforward instead

>>20701959
Yeah with autistic worldbuilding hopefully multiple games set in the same universe before I die (I'm not good as Tolkien either obviously but ya know at least the process is fun and relaxing)

>>20701937
It's a very simple solution no jrpg dev has figured out
don't interrupt the gameplay for the story
jrpgs give you a visual novel of cutscenes for 5-30min between small bursts of gameplay
this fucking sucks
have the dialog happen while the player is exploring the area with the main char talking to themself, or their party members
have the villain monologue during combat on their turn
don't interrupt the gameplay for the story

>>20701976
>have the dialog happen while the player is exploring the area
Fucking how bro I don't have voice acting! Player still has to pause and read...
Talking during combat I find too silly and anime, fighting for your life is no time for speech

>>20701960
I think flash implies brevity, so I'd just call it a non-linear story

>>20701959
>he's on another league
I've been waiting for English translation of "Püha ja õudne lõhn" since 2020 the bastard does not deliver and no news
It's so good that even a crappy fan-made amateur broken translation got me hooked, but it only lasts for 3 chapters
At this point I am willing to get the Estonian version and just throw that bitch into google translate
God fuckin' dammit

>>20701955
how the hell would I describe the golden age if I didn't? I'll tell you it was a chore to slog through and the only reason I persisted was to figure out why the fuck so many people praise it

>>20701576
yeah, in "iron man 1", the story is about how tony is having second thoughts about being an arms dealer
then we find out why
this is done through flash backs. i don't know if i'd call it ptsd but it's similar
he recalls, the flashback, his imprisonment by the terrorists and how he escaped. and his fellow prisoner telling him to 'be a better man' or something like that
the flashbacks have all the tension and stakes. when he returns to present day, there's less tension and stakes. this is probably one of the reasons it works so well, the flashbacks are more fun than present time

>>20701996
>how the hell would I describe the golden age wrong
ftfy

>>20701972
I guess we better go for the dark souls approach, not going to lie, Bloodborne is an inspiration so might as well.
>>20701993
Still no translation for that? Shame.

>>20701937
just one or two sentences per screen. spread them out some how so the player doesn't have to read so much
i love reading, but in games i often skip text so that i can get to the fun stuff

Flashbacks are good when they don't fuck with the pacing and the readers already want to know about what happens in it through hints and foreshadowing.
There's nothing worse than a flashback about the backstory of an uninteresting character in the middle of the story.

>>20701988
dozens of games have dialog in the field
usually in a textbox in the topleft that either has the main characters thoughts of the situation, reflections of current/past events, or banter with party
it doesn't need to be voiced as long as it's visible long enough for the player to read

I can't remember if it was Tales or Xenoblade but one improved on the Skits they used to do having that textbox there and the player being able to read through it touching LBumper to go to the next line.

you can still have dialog in combat, characters can use turns to exchange words with themselves or the villain, even more games do this and it doesn't interrupt gameplay as badly as actual cutscenes

>>20702001
Yeah, I think it works because you're engaged in the circumstances and to be fair I do think cases exist where the character would not divulge something.

>>20702025
Guardian Tales is a gacha but it does something like this, there's not too much text at a time and the devs capitalize on the medium by making you do things like fighting off the enemy and climbing buildings. In short, you learn exactly what you need to know without having too much text thrown at you.

>>20702038
You could also think of it as a change of perspective. Would this flashback/POV change relay something important/emotionally investing that you absolutely can't do without stopping the plot temporarily?

>>20702038
>tfw shit writer
>I want to make a game based on characters/dialogue/puzzles
Story, worldbuilding, themes and characters are good but I am afraid of writing.

>>20702071
maybe if you put even a tenth of the time and effort into exercises and reading that you put into shitposting here 24/7 about how much of a failure you are maybe you'd be less of a failure
but instead you choose to act like your defeat is predetermined. If you're so sure that failure is inevitable, give up and go away.

>>20702071
>hasn't written anything new
>has zero to show if his game he "really wants to make"
>makes the exact same plea for attention and pity every thread

Seriously fuck off and come back when you have either 2k words of fresh dialogue/prose for critique or even a screenshot of your WIP game that you haven't lifted a fat finger to make yet.

>>20702001
>he recalls, the flashback, his imprisonment by the terrorists and how he escaped. and his fellow prisoner telling him to 'be a better man' or something like that
It wasn't a flashback, dumbass, it all happened chronologically.

I need to get some sleep, but i made a promise in the last thread i needed to keep. an anon said that it felt like paragraphs got longer and the pacing seemed to be speeding up, so ive started by extending one 440 word paragraph describing my time on Lopez into two pages and 1100 more words. Today's addition has not been proofread, and ive been writing for the past four hours after work when i should have been sleeping. my notes are still in there for things after, but heres an updated link: https://drive.proton.me/urls/RN2B9HTX34#1tQcOqa0EBbd

Thanks /lit/, i'm glad im writing again.
pic related: excerpt of my expansion

hey folks, trying to look into serializing writing and then putting it on kindle unlimited. originally did bs royal rod litrpg but am looking for other avenues.
is the mystery/suspense thriller genre active on KU? if so, anywhere i ought to post it online first?
second, how about romance? how much marketing does romance require? is wattpad dead even for romance, and if so, is there another place to serialize romance?
basically i want to write a spy book and i want to write romance set in non fantasy worlds bc litrpg has me burnt out.
and ofc i wanna make money too.

>1) Avoid adjectives
>2) Avoid adverbs
>3) Avoid the passive voice
>4) Show, don't tell

>>20702193
lmfao hate when people say that shit

>Be descriptive. Show, don't tell.

>Also, stop using 20 words when you can just use 5.

Do you take your writing advice from actual successful writers or people who write guides for a living but have never achieved any measure of true literary success themselves?
I for one don't take advice from anyone and just make shit up as I go along

>>20702180
>is the mystery/suspense thriller genre active on KU?
as i understand it, it goes erotica, romance, mysteries, thrillers, etc
so your story is close to the top

>>20702180
are people still making money from kindle publishing with that tiktok return policy craze?
people are just buying books, reading them within 2 weeks, and returning them
author actually loses money in amazon's transaction fee shit

>>20702193
Those do tend to clean up your writing

>>20702316
kindle unlimited pays you for whatever they read in exchange for only publishing on amazon
so thankfully that drama is irrelevant

What do you guys think of the next chapter in my novella?

>>20702193
I've outlined my takedown blogpost on Show vs tell since yesterday, hopefully have it up by end of week. It's incredible how bad the current articles I could find on it are and I must save the next generation of noob authors.

>>20702193
Let's actually read a paragraph without any of those things.

Mark opened the door. He pushed the keys into the ignition. The engine started. He placed his foot onto the pedal and backed out the driveway. The freeway ramp was five miles away. He got on it. Mark pressed the pedal of his foot. His car went ninety miles per hour. He crashed. Mark is now dead.

That's why you use those 4 things.

>>20702421
That's in passive voice, isn't it?

> 2022 No.19833705 [View]
>>>19833634
>[noun] did thing
>Jesus anon.

>>20702434
No.
The door opened from Mark. (that's passive)
The ignition entered from turning the keys.
The car backed out of the driveway from Mark placing his foot on the pedal.

etc.

>>20702421
>it's possible to be a bad writer therefore you shouldn't attempt to be a good writer

>>20702421
So what exactly is this "show don't tell" argument? Isn't that contradictory advice? Or distinction without a difference. To me, it sounds like people are vaguely describing the omniscience of the narrator or the perspective style taken. To others, "showing" is using concrete descriptions as events unfold. "Telling" seems to be more of a synopsis or cut to the chase.

I've also heard show don't tell only applies to screenwriting or plays. That makes sense. Screenwriting and live action sequences unfold live with actors/actresses.

All of this is so confusing. Why is the worst advice always the most popular?
>>20702391
Thanks. That's kind of you anon

Can you link it here once you're finished? I would like to read it.

>>20701647
>write a chapter
>edit it the next day
No. Keep drafting. Edit weeks or months later.

>>20702257
I take advice from contemporary pros and essays or interviews from classic authors. I try to use my best judgement. Gotta take your own responsibilty for things like that.

Coming up with fancy names is hard.
How would you deconstruct the Mary Sue trope? Worth doing?

>>20702535
Don't write mary sues

>>20702552
No but how to take the traits of a mary sue and twist them into a deconstruction?

>>20702558
Don't. Deconstruction is not intelligent, clever or worthwhile.

>>20702558
>deconstruction
There's that word again...

>>20702494
>So what exactly is this "show don't tell" argument?
Retards that think books work like movies or something

>>20702703
B-but Hitchcock said (when talking about the text placards in silent films) that you should show actions rather than describing them, therefore books also should follow this advice!

>>20702535
Have the characters in the story acknowledge that there is an unknown force guiding their world which seems to favor this one person.

Does this sound mary sueish or any advice for this, where can it go wrong? Fantasy
>someone with objectively everything they can be is forced to go on a quest to aid something that embodies the limits of their nature, internally seething and coping along the way.
Very vague description of the main conflict.

>>20702535
No Mary Sues allowed.

>>20702494
>Why is the worst advice always the most popular?
because it lets people who have no idea what their talking about feel smart to give advice without actually understanding anything or having to give any real advice.
It's not unlike people yelling out FALLACY online instead of refuting an argument, they get to be smug about knowing any of the 2000 fallacies that they can quote to pretend someone didn't completely obliterate them.

>>20702494
There is telling, and then there is telling poorly.
When people say "show don't tell" what they really mean is don't suck at telling.

>>20702558
deconstruction and subversion are too often used in place of anything interesting.
Making batman but he just beats the shit out of genuinely mentally ill people who just need to help doesn't make it a good story just because you are deconstructing what batman is in your mind.
And making a book where it ends with the hero just being hit by a random chunk of rock falling from space isn't good just because it subverted your expectations of a heroic battle at the end.
Honestly I could be wrong about my example of a deconstruction, but I don't believe I am.
I would use the boys as a comic vs a show as an example, both would call themselves deconstructions of the superhero genre, but where as the comic seems to just exist as a way for Ennis to draw gore and stroke his ego about "really super heroes WOULD be degenerates since they have these godlike powers and would turn into narcissist."
Where as I think the show has more of an angle of "if super beings existed then they would end up being puppets of corporations because supervillains wouldn't just be popping out of the woodworks every day and the ability to punch through a tank doesn't mean someone should actually do that."
in the comic and show there is a plane crash the supes are sent to stop, in both mediums they fail, in the show its because one of them lasers the controls and the plane cannot be landed anymore.
if this was superman he would lift the plane up from the bottom and safely land it.
but in the show such an idea if scoffed at because so much force on a small area would just make him poke a hole in the plane.
in the comic its not much different but the same character also breaks into the front of the plane yelling FUCKING NIGGERS while covered in blood, his superpowered yelling also bursts the eardrums of the passengers and decompression killed them all making any chances of saving them 0.

>>20702916
Nah. The point of fallacy is that certain arguments are flawed because they are just retarded. Like, they are logically not valid at all. Take an argument from ignorance for instance.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

thoughts?

http://www.miserytourism.com/twirling/

>>20702738
If I am reading this right they are powerful but they are being sent on a mission which has them helping someone they believe to be weaker or in a sense lesser and so they are coping and seething about this?
If the story is about him growing as a person because he has been using power as a replacement for just being a good person and he learns to handle situations with finesse instead of brute force I think it could be good.
Or is the character someone without practical skills like bargaining or making a simple camp etc. and he will learn that he is actually flawed and not as perfect as he thought?
>>20703028
I mean more like people who say ad hom because during some breakdown and refutation of their argument the other person called them a cunt.
Fallacies have a place, but I think they are overused by pseuds who don't really understand how they should use them and just think they are zingers to pull out and invalidate someone elses arguments.

>>20703051

>>20703050
That's just the person you're arguing with being a cunt.

And fallacies do invalidate arguments. They're literal failings in logic.

>>20703064
>And fallacies do invalidate arguments. They're literal failings in logic.
Not really. If you read the Greeks, they merely thought fallacious arguments were convincing while not being sound nor truthful. But who even knows the truth? If one starts saying they’re truthful, they’re bound to be a tyrant one day who controls the narrative. Rhetoric and fallacies can be useful.

>>20703050
A mix of 2 and 3, but more personal if anything.

>>20703069
>they merely thought fallacious arguments were convincing while not being sound nor truthful
That doesn't make them any less flawed logically, man. That's the point. They sound smart, but they're really retarded.

>>20703073
Even Plato used rhetoric and fallacies, even with his Socrates sock puppet

>>20703081
And you wonder why other philosophers disagree with Plato?

In view of the recent show don't tell and passive voice discussion, I'd like to shill Pullum's great paper once more and invite everyone to make an earnest effort to study and read it.
www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/passive_loathing.pdf

>>20703205
Everybody knows that when approaching the mastery curve of any craft you'll be bombarded with the "do this" and "don't do that" of conventional wisdom—we call them "lies-to-children" and their point is to serve as a constructive direction for which you might begin to explore the nuances inherent to the field. Nobody unironically believes that the totality of history's wisdom can be summed up in a handful of witty rules, and the pretense that anybody does displays an even more pedestrian mind than the one that adheres to them without any reflection.

Would you read 1k of low hanging fruit frustration?

>The guy across the train was looking at me. Actual eye contact. The two of us were in a tin can flying seventy kilometers an hour somewhere around the fortieth floor going god knew where and surrounded by zombies-- the bipedal sheep of the city so fried on dopamine hits they can barely think straight. People who need a machine to tell them go here, do this, eat that, don’t forget to wipe your ass before you play with your dick, and don’t ever ever ever question anything. Stupid people ask questions, and nobody wants to be stupid. All the smart people check for the answer online and no one’s the wiser.[...]

Still offering nonfiction and fiction editing at maat042@yahoo.com for whatever amount you can afford to pay me.

Most of my best work was ghostwriting, so if I tell you what it was, I'll have to kill you!

Is anyone here working on a novel?

>>20703205
Thanks, anon. I'll read it in a little bit

>>20703399
I've got several I'm working on. One is done, one is being planned out, and the other is partially done but part of a series.

>>20703205
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcbHKbvwCnU

Video summary from Pullum as well, essential stuff. At a bare minimum you have to watch the first two videos.

>>20703269
>"lies-to-children"
Show don't tell is worse than saying "eat all your food or you won't grow big" because 1) it lists 2 very vaguely defined subjects and 2) it tells you unequivocally that one is correct and should always be done and the other is incorrect/bad. The elaboration to the "children's lie" of show don't tell is 'actually you so need to tell sometimes", meaning the initial advice was just wrong to begin with - so let's just start with better advice.

>the pretense that anybody does displays an even more pedestrian mind than the one that adheres to them without any reflection
Go visit reddit or most amature writing hangouts - people fiercely defend these old lines and apply them rigidly to their own detriment. Successful writers parrot these phrases but aren't strick about them in practice of course.

>>20703032
Read half the video game short story - liked it although a lilting uneven in parts.

>>20703399
Yea two I alternate between.

>>20700880
Rule of three?

Reading all of the major books on creative writing/ story structure, just finished The Art of Fiction by David Lodge

>>20701577
>Don't start stories with the protagoniat waking up, damn it!
W-why anon?

Can I get some critque and tips for improvement, anons?

>>20703587
Just because it's too obvious of a place to start so therefore has been done too many times.
Anything can work, but usually there is something better than that.

>>20703608
Give me a like 30 minutes. I got you, anon.

>>20703608
open with the dialogue

>>20700329

I don't see why this whole thing is about basketball but you open it with the girl and the love note. It just feels totally out of place.

Just dive right into the basketball if that's what it's about. You said this is a sports drama after all.

>>20703608
>The sunlight hurt vonnes’ eyes as she opened the heavy metal door at the top of the long flight of stars, wincing as she stepped into the light of day.

Okay, there is a lot of autism on /wg/ over “show don’t tell” but this is a classic example.

What may be better is,

>Vonnes’ eyes squinted away from the morning sunlight
Or afternoon sunlight. You can also use this moment to pinpoint the general time of day. If it is late in the morning and she is just waking up you can make note of that, as it will also give a clue to her personality.

For example

>Vonnes’ woke with squinted eyes as the afternoon sun found its way through her window and to her bed.

I know that’s not what you were going for, but I’m just trying to show you an example of how you can say something without directly saying it and pack multiple bits of information into a single sentence without it running on. Apply this concept to your writing a little more often and it will do wonders.

Also be careful with adjectives. Using bland adjectives and especially overusing them makes for a very dry read. Ex: heavy metal door, long flight of stairs.

I’m not going to lie to you, the first sentence is off to a pretty fucking bad start, and I’m already shying away from the blockiness of this first paragraph but I’ll stick with you a little longer.

Stay tuned for round 2.

>>20703740
It was meant to show how particularly important basketball is to him.
When Sange (soon to be renamed Sal) shakes his confidence later in the story there will be more impact as the reader will understand how incredibly important it is to Andy and how soul crushing it is for him to be bested.

Ahhh...

>>20703399
I'm here.
I'm working on several novels.
I'm not working on them here because why would you do that?

>>20703399
I'm working on two. One is full steam ahead toward the final draft and other I left at 1st draft.
>>20703548
Rule of three is a writing principle that trios are satisfying and significant to readers. It could be mentioning three ideas, three people, three events, etc. In the case of Chekhov's gun, if you show it three times it is bound to find significance with the reader. Thing is you don't have to mention it the same way each time, you just have to in some way remind the reader that the gun exists. I was reading a novel recently where a character says "I'm leaving" three different times but another character gives different explanations about why she won't leave. Eventually we really believe that she will leave, and leave peacefully as she insists. There are various guns mentioned in the story so we know the guy has guns, but the guns are not mentioned for a while except one character points at her husband with a fingergun at his forehead. Two pages later the girl that said she was going to leave pulls out a gun and shoots the guy.
What made that great was that the author established first that there are guns, but then begins to establish that a character wants to leave peacefully so we rule out guns until the reader gets one last chance to consider it with a less direct reminder about guns. Sometimes if you fail the rule of three before a major surprise, it can sometimes disappoint readers if the writer fails to prepare the readers expectations for what could happen.

Holy shit I suck at this, considering suicide.
My prose sucks so fucking much, I have an idea about a scene, I have the scene in my mind, it's futuristic and grimey, it's disgusting to look at, it's failure.
But I can't describe it
>Thick branches, tightly tied, vibrant. Hanging low.
That's all I can think of when writing down notes, it says nothing.

I wish I could be a filmmaker so bad, draw instead of this shit.

>>20703608
The rest is a better.
The main criticism I can give is that you can improve it by being a more concise, and be a little more liberal with your enter key. Walls of text are a sin. The dialog was fine. Your descriptions, while a bit heavy handed, were not terrible.

If this is your natural writing style it is fine for a rough draft, but on future drafts my best recommendation is to play with the words and try to shorten the paragraphs. Try to use fewer words to say more, as I made an example of in my last post.

>>20703608
Delete the first paragraph and start with the dialogue.

The next big paragraph you have is also a problem. You are writing from whose POV? If you are writing from Vonne's POV, that description sounds out of place.

>>20703841
I disagree with starting with the dialog.
That would be an improvement from what you currently have, but what would be better is to just shorten the paragraph.

>>20703836
What was I hoping to describe?
Easy, low angle, zoom out into still, train station. Focused at roof, I could post drawings but I might use them eventually.
I can't describe a disgusting and filthy train station, I can't write, FUCK.

FUCKING KILLING NOT ENOUGH FUCK
HOW LOW CAN SOMEONE BE HOW LOW CAN SOMEONE FUCKING BE
WHY STUCK IN ONE DEFICIENT ABORTION PRONE BRAIN, JUST DIE ALREADY, OUT OF ALL THERE IS I AM MERELY THIS BULLSHIT HACK, NO ONE.


FUCK YOU

>>20703861
You sir, have excellent taste in women but seriously need to shut the fuck up.

@20703861
Stop sperging out into this thread every time you disappoint yourself. Everyone feels this. Get over it.

>>20703861
didn't read but Kim hot

>>20703869
im going to blow my brains out, suck it out of the barrel, proper value is found on moments like this. To feel disappointing is normal but kneecapped at conversation is an entirely different taste. Poor prose and half assed drafts that barely make it past the first stage, time is not fond of this. Why even care and why should it matter? Literature, I shit on the pages of the canon, western, eastern, all of it. I shit and let it rot.
Fuck you and your whore mother.
>>20703889
Fuck you too, never found me out there on the street lusting for grandmas and hags. I was not there, hot? Hot? Whatever.

>>20703896
FUCKING HELL WHEN I AM RABID I FORGET ENGLISH
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKFU K

IM NOT GOING TO MAKE IT
FROM BIRTH
I WAS NOT GOING TO MAKE IT
I SHOULDNT MIND IT I KNOW
I SHOULDNT MIND THIS AT ALL
MAKING NOTHING? BEING REMEMBERED? BULLSHIT
LOAD UP METH OR LSD, DATURAH, ALWAYS WANTED TO TRY THAT ONE.
BLOW MY FUCKING BRAINS OUT AT THE PEAK OF THE HIGH. DRAG IT OUT.

>>20703896
Better. This one was definitely more tolerable.

>>20703905
And you lost it.

>>20703800
lol, acting like you are not coming here just to see me.
Listen bitch, you aint fooling nobody.

i'M SIMPLY TOO USED TO HAVING A BRAIN, TO SQUIRMING ON A SKULL, FLOATING THOUGHTS.
I'VE GOTTEN TOO USED, THE MUSCLE, ENGORGED.
I AM PURE CANCER, THIS BRAIN SHOULD HAVE NEVER BORN, WASTED ON THIS.
LISTEN YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT, HOW MANY ATTEMPTS SO FAR? HOW MANY PAGES AM I GOING TO WASTE? HOW GOOD CAN I EVER BE? NONE. LOWEST BUG.

I AM NOTHING MORE THAN A BOTTOM FEEDER WITH ASPIRATIONS AND GOALS, MY TINY MAGGOT BRAIN STUCK IN PRIMAL APE BODY CAN'T WRITE FOR SHIT, GIVE ME ONE EXCUSE WHY SHOULD I LET IT DRIP AND RUN OUT? .45 TO THE HEAD.

I will keep reporting you, fucking spammer.

LOOK AT MY MANY TALENTS
NOTHING TO SHOW
22 YEARS HAVE ALREADY PASSED
NOTHING

>>20703896
Have you considered writing a story about someone in despair? You are pretty articulate about it.
Read one short story every day with an author that has a talent you want to get, look closely at the sections you think work and you will begin to understand why.
>https://literarydevices.net/
Learn some of these writing techniques in the link. (some are poetic and won't help as much with prose). Also consider that writing for video games is not just writing, it is visual and interactive. Consider Super Metroid how lights, music, barriers, animals, the shape of the map and acquiring abilities all play with the mind of the player and tell a story without words. Sometimes in writing you can have more subtle narrative like that guiding the reader but trying to nudge them in the right direction.

WHY CANT I WRITE? WHY DO I LACK TALENT? WHY CANT I SIMPLY BE ONE?
IS IT TOO LATE TO LEARN?
THE BRAIN IS TOO OLD NOW, TOO SETTLED IN ITS WAYS, THEY TALK OF FREEDOM AND WILL
MEAT MACHINE WILLS ME

ILL NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER BE A WRITER.
I cant write, and like me there's none.
Anything I could ever hope to write, anyone would ignore on quality and merit alone.
Birth was another one that followed, I am unfit for art, on expectation I should do something else, what others think will be real to my experience, I have not even one artistic gene in my entire makeup, what good can it bring? To be like this, mute and idiotic, if I can't do art then I am wasted sentient meat, what's so good about it? what's so unique about me? Why mind doing nothing, art, that's why. Just wanted to do something with my name on it, make sense after I am dead, I won't know but it's about pride.
I'm too old, too stupid, too simple too ever make it, my prose is pedestrian.

Ignore and report.

My situation is more hopeless than the monkey tapping away, glass cube secured and locked, it's purpose for the next trillion years will be to eventually write a shakespeare novel. I'm not the monkey.
The ape is ignorant and stupid that any success he might have will come from random billion billion variables lining up to perfection, an event that will simply not happen again. One page alone, coherence after 700 million years, a page, one for brilliance will take billions and there's pending change on the entire book, keep it.
No, I'm not that monkey, my birth was the page, billion variables all collided to make a being of such simple talents, the jury is out on me, can this page ever hope to good, it's not even close the mean. Toss it away think of nothing of it, ever again.

>>20703615
But it's integral to the plot, themes, and every part of the narrative...

>>20704054
Never been close to greatness or talent, skill? It can come, eventually. But the natural fire inside us, the materialist variable, boolean. Mine is locked and dead on, no.
Will I ever be good? No
Have I justified my existence? No
Do I have something to say? Yes. Think again.
Who would ever listen to my words? No. Never played the game, never gained a thing.
If art is subjective my life has been the greatest performance art to ever be, failure like this, not an accident, best to assume it was intentional, I won't get even get internet whispers after death, nothing, no work, no show.
Am I mad? Yes.
Should I be? No.
Am I stupid? Absolutely. No.

>>20703643
Will do, that is a common point of criticism.
>>20703745
Aside from being concise, how else could the descriptions be better?
>>20703841
It is Vonnes', I am trying to describe the scenery here because this spot is pretty integral to the rest of what I have planned.

The first paragraph will be edited and put somewhere else.

I'm unfit to be a writer, I should let all aspirations go. All dreams are useless for a husk.
I wanted to be one and I wanted to be good, the moment of illusion is the hardest one to ignore, one more page and I will be close to one day being good, the next page you owe two.
I should have realized, it would come naturally if I was meant to do it, if it was my fate.
But determinism spoke, I'll never be a good writer and this meaningless clash against the fact is taking a toll on me.
Worthless life, my name? A joke, they laugh at me. Even at my most angered I'm too robotic for anything to come, any stroke of passion and inspiration.
>>20704094
Fuck you, why are you better than me? Why?
Why?

Ever since I asked the editor anon and he laughed at me, at the infamous post I made, beyond shit writing you'll find me there. I should give up. I won't make it, I can't make my game, not like this. I am sadly too talentless to become a good writer, one good line would take me decades. A hundred years, I'll have a decent chapter, I have time for nothing.
I can't write I have to accept it, and I wouldn't mind if the only way to do my project didn't involve this.
I'll never ever even make something like Disco Elysium, true talent right there. You could keep me alive for eternity, I would never figure it out, the formula to good writing, I wasn't not born with the it factor.
No one answers or replies to me in here, no one helps me for real.

>>20704075
None of that doomer crap is true. Call of the Crocodile came from this place. There shouldn’t be ANY reason why EVERYONE can’t AT LEAST get to F Gardner level recognition here. Stop the self pity crap.

>>20704117
no point in replying, he just wants to have his sperg out every thread and never actually write anything, never program a game.
he is a doomer for lack of even trying.

Joke question but how do I degrade as a writer? how do you make yourself worst book by book?

>>20704130
worse*
try turning into a drug addict and alcoholic, though that might actually make you better in some cases.

>>20704117
What actually is F Gardner level recognition? Unreal mentions him as a success but I never understand in relationship to what. Even if I got lots of anons to get my book it still seems like it'd be niche enough to not be very deep. I haven't done the market research though, so maybe I'm underestimating the power of autism bucks.

Well boys I've got a big opportunity coming up. The biggest newspaper in my country (200k+ daily print circulation, millions in online traffic) accepted my request to go to Ukraine solo to do a series of gonzo pieces near the front. It's been cleared by their legal counsel and it's really happening. I arrive in September and will stay till mid November. The reality is setting in now, though I'm not afraid. After all, it was my idea. How should I approach this? If this goes well and I put together something special, I imagine getting a major book deal wouldn't be out of the cards.

>>20704135
In Stephen King's case, sobering up is what made him worse

>>20704147
a couple of slava ukraini and Putin is Hitler should be good enough

>>20704147
I would record as much audio as I could, take pictures. Good luck anon, that sounds fun.

>>20704158
I guess the answer is if you are already a trainwreck, go sober, if you are sober start drinking and smoking crack.

>>20704165
Well yeah, the interviews will be recorded with my phone. Did you mean audio of something other than interviews and witness accounts?

>>20704159
Lol, I won't be making overtly political statements. More so a compassionate and humanist account of the ordinary lives carrying on in the war-stricken countryside, and how their lives themselves are an act of protest against their condition; how defiantly they refuse to be broken by their situation, etc. I've already been twice now, without writing political pieces. This time will be my third, and first time with a press card and first time near the front. And I'll be there for 6+ weeks rather than a few days.

>>20704200
Yeah, well I was thinking some of the events that happen between your interviews could be really cool too. It might not make it into your reports but might as well take it all in while you're there, or do your best to remember it by jotting down notes into a diary.

>>20704144
Well, everyone here knows who F Gardner is. So, he is literally the most famous person on this board. I’ve seen people post YouTube videos about his books so he has some sort of readership.

>>20704243
No shit. Gardner bought Call of the Crocodile ads for years. I’ve never seen another book aggressively marketed as much on here.

>>20704243
Discord trannies milking lols doesn't count as readership

>>20704266
>muh discord trannies!

>>20704287
>signing your posts with "!"

>What?
>Remember what Joseph Campbell said.
>Follow your bliss.

are these threads normally plagued with the same shitposters?

>>20704427
Yeah but sometimes it’s hilarious.

>>20702389

It's fabulous. As the other anons said, you are writing smut so you have to embrace that. You have to deliver on the expectations created with the first lines of your first chapter. That means more detail. In the scene with the priest for example we can imagine you bobbing your head up and down getting baptized, but there are numerous other details you've excluded. Same as when you have straddled him in the back of the church pews and you are bouncing in his lap in holy communion. Your readers will expect more details about how big things are, how tight the fit and so on.

If on the other hand, you are not writing "smut" or erotic literature, than you have to drop out all the sex scenes starting from chapter 1, but then you would now have a rather ordinary boring tale if anything at all, since the plot kind of revolved around sex.

You decide.

You can't do it halfway though.

>>20704402
Campbell is so widely misunderstood. His studies on monomyth are great to understand sociology and history but he didn't write them as a guide to writing fiction.

>>20700952
Why did you choose basktball though? You said you did all that research watching gay porn, and you didn't notice that basketball is decidely not a gay sport?

Wouldn't it be more plausible if you chose something like football or wrestling or swimming?

It would also be easier to sell as these sports are inherently erotic with their tight spandex or jocks straps or speedos. Those are the sports where straight boys go in and come out gay.

>>20704147
If you embed with their troops, you will end up dead under Russian artillery fire so don't do anything stupid, anon.

And why do you want to go over there just to be a tool for propaganda anyway? What's the point? The truth is determined in NYC and DC, not in some trench in Ukraine. You should ask your newspaper to send you to Manhattan.

>>20704583
In what way is the truth determined in DC and NYC? The truth can be determined by me asking around, searching, seeing for myself. I want to go because it's a global issue that I take interest in, especially since I've lived in Ukraine previously and love the country. Also, I'm somewhat of a subject matter expert in the area so major outlets actually publish my work and it gets read. My short stories only you guys read.

I don't plan to embed with UA troops, but a military escort around Kharkiv I'm open to.

>>20704611
if you die over there make sure to post it here.

>>20704536
they're not even that, really. Comparative mythology is an embarrassing period in anthropology. Academics as a whole were obsessed with finding some "unifying theory" back then because they all wanted to be the Einstein of their own fields. Honestly, relativity ruined an entire generation of otherwise great thinkers.

>>20704556
Because that's the only sport I've ever played at length so writing about it will come more naturally.

And I don't need the sport to be gay. This isn't erotica. It's an emotionally gripping sports drama with some ass fucking on the side.

>>20704611
good luck, anon

yet another big revision coming on my WIP
just realized my antagonist and protagonist don't hate each other
it's not personal
so now i have to make it personal
they'll start attacking each other. then, they'll start to hate each other and want revenge

I cracked the code, boys. If you want your writing to be heralded as a classic, include these things:
>greco roman references
>bible references
>biblical allegories
Round all that off with “god is real and good, actually”, and brother, you got yourself a western classic. Include me in your dedications.

>>20704763
My protagonist doesn't hate the antagonist even after being murdered by him, but to be fair they're practically twins and he understands why the antagonist did that. Your protagonist doesn't necessarily need to hate the antagonist anyway, in my story the protagonist and antagonist simply have goals that are incompatible with each other.

I'm glad it's over.
>>20704791
I'm reading Salvage the Bones and despite it being grotesque and trashy the myth references makes it kind of cool. I mainly stick with Bible references in my writing but I do make a reference to Pandora's Box because I find it very interesting what does not fly out of it.

>>20704791
>>20704845
stupid you need to include sexual allegory through God, claiming the Christian repression is morally faulty. All classics include some sort of criticism about Christian morality and sexuality

>>20704791
You sound like an angry redditor.

Any alcoholics here?
I'm not a drinker but I want to understand what compels a man to drink, what keeps him there, what the allure is. Is it drunkenness and the state of stupor? The taste of the alcohol? Just the knowledge that you're imbibing in a vice?

>>20704870
tiresome

>>20704855
I do criticism specific interpretations of faith in that I try to delineate two views on salvation that are normally not distinguished. I forget the short list of things I take issue with but I don't think I really get into sexuality at all in my first story. Are there specifics you had in mind?

New thread >>20705006
since our time is short...

>>20704871
while I am not an alcoholic, probably because I can't afford to be, I drink because it lessens my constant back pain and puts me in a good mood.
the good mood is the best part to me, since I feel tightly wound at all hours, honestly to a lesser extent I feel some of the tension leaving me and am in a better mood while writing as well.
however I do know someone who was an alcoholic, and for him it was to deal with the mental anguish of being constantly rejected and ghosted by women despite looking normal and being fit, he is also a certified autist though I would never know it without him telling me, he wonders if women have some kind of sixth sense about it.

>>20704746
You realize that just doing internet research isn’t enough right? Those videos aren’t going to tell you nearly as much as you need to know to write a credible story. You have to prepare yourself for some real world research and get some first hand experience or else your story will fall flat.

>>20705017
>back pain
Ever been to a chiropractor?
Medical doctors don't know squat about back pain.

>>20705090
I went to a chiropractor but I could only get in so many times because of insurance stuff and them not fully covering them, and I feel the pain relief was only temporary.
I've been going to doctors and physical therapy on and off for 7 years, I last went to the physical therapists for my third run at it back in late spring.
I have 2 slipped discs which are causing 2 pinched nerves, but I also have spasms and the surgeon I spoke with didn't want to do a spinal fusion because they don't know what the cause of the spasms are which is throwing them for a loop on if the pain is actually from those minor nerve pinches or not.
also since I was only 20 when I spoke with him he basically said I'll end up needing to get it done once if not twice more in my lifetime.
I'll be 23 in 4 days and I've been barely mobile and getting worse for 7 years.
its part of why I started writing, I can't bake as much anymore and I feel like I'm just wasting my days doing nothing, at least a creative outlet which could hopefully give me any money at all is something to look forward too.

>>20705114
You ever look into Methylene Blue? Supposedly it's a benign supplement that supports nervous system recovery and a few other things besides. My wife and I have taken it at low doses for awhile and no issue - Dr. Mercola has a really good interview with a professor/chemist about it that might be worth checking out.

Not saying it's a miracle but can't hurt. Also make sure you are eating collagen, getting vitamin D3, and avoiding fluoride to support good bone health which may help.

No guarentees but some ideas if you havent dipped your toes into that granola side of the internet. My heart goes out to you man.

>>20705412
I will have to remember that next time I see my doctor.
And I don't think I have any issues getting collagen or D3 in my diet, and I don't see any reason I should be in excess of fluoride.
I'm willing to try anything once, hell, I had 2 roid shots in my spine.

>>20705052
I was considering that.
I found some male escorts on craigslist. I could pay one of them to fuck me in the ass.

It wouldn't even be gay because it's just for research.