/lit/ - Literature

I'll accept fictional characters from storybooks, I suppose. But I can't actually think of one off the top of my head.

>male group bullying
*male in-group bullying

>>20691503
I think 'The Confusions of Young Törless' would fit, but I haven't read it.

>>20691606
hm, it doesn't seem like it fits, but it looks interesting anyway.

>When the torment becomes unbearable, Törless covertly advises Basini to turn himself in to the headmaster as a way out of the situation.

>An investigation is commenced, but the only party to be found guilty is Basini. Törless makes a strange existential speech to the school authorities about the gap between the rational and irrational ("...after all, things just happen"), which puzzles the authorities more than anything else. They decide he is of too refined an intellect for the institute, and suggest to his parents that he be privately educated, a conclusion that he comes to on his own.

lol
>The expressionistic novel, based on Musil's personal experiences at a boarding school in Hranice (in Austria-Hungary, now in the Czech Republic) was written according to Musil "because of boredom".

>>20691626
I mean goodreads says
>bullying, snobbery, and vicious homoerotic violence at an elite boys academy
But maybe it's not gay enough for you lol

>>20691503
Are you said ‘faggot’, anon?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread being destroyed on this board.

>>20691646
Could be, could be.

I suppose what I was looking for was more of a Columbine Massacre which took the side of the killers of the bullies. Or, I don't know, something more related to the long-term aspects of petty social power-play at the expense of a group - w/ Columbine, perhaps, as the extreme outcome.

It was a good title, anon, I had't heard of it. I know there's a lot of similar material about boarding schools from the early-to-middle part of the last century which is hard to find but I suppose is probably the best place to start.

>>20691653
"water? what's water?"
says the goldfish swimming in the bowl

Goodbye to All That has a bit of that in the boarding school part
But it’s mostly about WW1 trench warfare in France

>>20691655
Boris Johnson originating from a small boy being forced to warm the toilet seat for older boys and his subsequent character development from these experiences as an adult; graduating at last as an older boy himself learning to love having a small boy warm his toilet seat:

the shamelessness of his character and the inculcation of his character traits.

>>20691678
a promising sub section in a thesis, this.

>>20691626
I don’t think torless is what you’re looking for. Yes there’s bullying but it’s of a different nature entirely. What you’re describing seems like a common phenomenon amongst African American male groups. So I would look in the African American literature.

>>20691503
i don't understand, are you talking about sexual bullying? men coercing other men into behaviors that would otherwise not be considered under different conditions?

my diary desu

>>20692642
No no, this is a different later derivation of the word Faggot itself; probably taking its name from the rape aspect of the victim, but I'm interested in exploring the brain of the rapist who has not yet raped - if that makes sense. I did clarify in this in the OP that I wasn't talking about homosexuality but male in-group sociopathy.

>>20692620
>I don’t think torless is what you’re looking for. Y
I dont think so either.

>common phenomenon amongst African American male groups. So I would look in the African American literature.
Huh that's not a bad idea actually. "Prison culture", kind of thing, you mean? I can see that one.

>>20691671
>mostly about WW1 trench warfare
Yeah. Good book though, I've read bits of that.

>>20691503
>. I notice this isn't so much the same tact with female 'faggotry',

>>20692666
>male in-group sociopathy.
but how do MIGS differ from FIGS?

>>20691671
>Graves goes on to claim, "In English preparatory and public schools romance is necessarily homosexual. The opposite sex is despised and treated as something obscene. Many boys never recover from this perversion. For every one born homosexual, at least ten permanent pseudo-homosexuals are made by the public school system

>>20691503
Someone hurt your feelings, hey, bud?

>>20693812
ha fuck yes! But it's the point of group dynamics and impediments within a group; if it was a case of "two people with ideas of what thegroup should do next" having a disagreement then that wouldn't be this case, rather, this case is when one person or the group itself is working toward a course of action of "what to do next" and the sociopath arrives to dissuade the group from undertaking any useful action,

The case here, then, "male in-group sociopathy" occurs in that dynamic; where the good impulse is shamed or dissuaded by the person who can be observed to have no interest in undertaking any action at all; he will not 'lead' the group but he will dissuade the group (or the other person) from undertaking an action or a line of inquiry - seemingly with a highly socially focused desire to use the group to bolster (the faggots) own sense of ego.

i.e. the act of an abuse (a misuse) of the group (and the dynamics of the group) for petty socially-minded ends at the expense of the groups actual-practical productivity (i.e. subverting the good impulse, dissuading from practical actions, etc.).

why does he do this, etc. etc.

>>20692689
and there's the title of this study :D

MIGS and FIGS

>an abuse (a misuse)
(ab) improper (use of the group)

>>20694305
4chan could be the grounds for a neat little field-study of this phenomenon, couldn’t it?

>>20694374
that's what we've being doing everyday, knowingly or not, all of us deeply interested in find out the causes of why the monkey-creatures won't go into the field and grow crops.

>>20691503
>no one points out that OP is actually talking about pedantry and not fagottry.
Are you all scared of being called faggots (pedants)?

This board really has gotten stupid.

>>20694305
>But it's the point of group dynamics and impediments within a group; if it was a case of "two people with ideas of what thegroup should do next" having a disagreement then that wouldn't be this case, rather, this case is when one person or the group itself is working toward a course of ...

This is interesting, it reminds me of like agent provocateur but an agent of inertia, also a Mutual Aide scenario-- check out that book by Kropotkin where he describes insects turning on the non-contributing or disruptive members of their colony in order to protect social cohesion and purpose.

>>20694305
You should illustrate an example. Like, write a story of what you mean.

If you mean the tendency for certain men in groups to discourage all action, then this is, in my opinion, just an evolutionary thing for some people. Action is chaotic, and chaos disrupts, and during that disruption social standings can be shuffled, with those on the bottom ending up on top, and those on the top ending up on the bottom. Thus, some men, especially older men or ones more content with their station, will discourage all action for it risks their position.

>>20691503
Catch-22

>>20691503
Um, I have a question: what if the group is inert and it's an individual trying to rouse them; isn't he then the faggot upsetting the group dynamic and therefore worthy of stoning? Can we ascribe faggotry to stasis, or to the individual attempting to alter the dynamic? In the latter case, anybody altering the inertia whether to movement or stasis is a faggot. Is there some metaphysics of action and cohesion you're proposing under the guise of "socialogical" terminology? Is any dissent faggotry and all 'action' approved of in this ultra autistic manichean categorisation you've concocted in your cosmology?

>>20695405
>what if the group is inert and it's an individual trying to rouse them; isn't he then the faggot upsetting the group dynamic

This is a predicament known in philosophical circles as the 'Odysseus amongst the Lotus Eaters conundrum'. Lots of interesting work on this important though experiment coming out of the Université Montpellier

>>20694861
>pedants
Yes that was one word for some of it, it escaped me yesterday.

But, no, you missed the point, see: >>20694305
pendantry would be merely one aspect or tool in the faggots box - btw your reply ticks that box.

>>20695483
>>20695405
>what if the group is inert and it's an individual trying to rouse them;
This is a good point, it's not the same at all - or it's clear that it's not from the object; someone doesn't crush down on the good impulse if they're looking to invigorate. It's the crushing down which renders the group to the flatline state, so it would be obvious enough to tell the two apart.

I do know what you mean though. Honestly it's not something I've ever witnessed since maybe middle teens when the group 'was' lazy or didn't want to be in the classroom in the first place. I'd expect to ave found more instances of this as an adult but it's been pretty absent to be honest; so we figure tis isn't what's going on and we notice instead that the group (or person) who expresses good impulse or ideas is flatlined; demoralized and dissuaded. This can be true amongst kids as well, of course, it's the same dynamic where a bad group (or a few within the group) are the MIGS (male in-group sociopathy).

>Is there some metaphysics of action and cohesion you're proposing under the guise of "socialogical" terminology?
Sure: the group (the human) is naturally orientated towards action, "how is this 'good impulse' shot down" it's shot down under the guise of 'highly socially (or asocially) minded persons' who subvert the group; to dissuade from action, by crushing down on the group in order to elevate their own sense of social importance (e.g. insulting others to make self seem better). Examining it on the in-group basis is the key to identify the persistent character types, what they do and their motives for having done what they did.

>>20695162
>Kropotkin where he describes insects turning on the non-contributing or disruptive members of their colony in order to protect social cohesion and purpose.
That's exactly what I had in mind, although I wouldn't have thought of Kropotkin (maybe Marcuse is worth a reread as well). I'll look that up.

>>20695343
>an evolutionary thing for some people.
> ones more content with their station, will discourage all action for it risks their position.
> chaos disrupts, and during that disruption social standings can be shuffled,
I agree with this as a general overview (that this is the motive for some people) but its in evolutionary terms where the problem can be seen in this; the group of human are supposed to be occupied with practical useful actions, almost this is the baseline by nature, so the occurrence of a person who seeks to thwart that - to elevate themselves whilst not elevating themselves (i.e. whilst not doing anything useful) but by lowering the group so that the individual seems elevated by comparison, can be said to be the harm of the thing entirely. I don't disagree with you that this can and probably is entirely petty-minded (socially or asocially) for the sociopath who isn't thinking in terms of group or useful courses of actions at all but only insofar as the group can be utilized to further or serve the persons own individual self in some manner.

e.g. they aren't interested if the group reaches a conclusion to undertake some practical action; this involves the groups autonomy and when the group practices autonomy then the natural leaders emerge from the practical and apt of the group (and the group becomes used to working together), this optimal operation however is at odds with the petty-minded (social or asocial) 'flatline' desire of the sociopath who - i suppose is doing this,
1) wishes to be the best in the group whilst possessing no skills
2) this necessitates the crushing down of the group
which
3) renders the group ill-fit for the undertaking of any action

You might see the 'sociopath' attempting to 'play leader' after having done this, and this is probbly the overall desire; to reduce a group down to the lowest possible level of operation in order that the most ill-fit person can claim leadership s a trophy position instead of a skills-based position (and this at the cost of group autonomy and total possible output of that group being grossly reduced as consequence).

The motive 'of' the sociopath against the in-group is subjective and peripheral, we have to discern this for ourselves when we notice the impediment to optimal dynamics occurring in the group, - but it may well be semi-conscious on the part of sociopath: craving (the outward appearance) of being dominant in the group (socially minded, self-status) and possessing the instinct to recognize threats to their desired high status, whilst possessing no other skills or capacity to achieve the same ends without achieving them at the expense of the group.

>>20695405
>Is there some metaphysics of action and cohesion you're proposing under the guise of "socialogical" terminology?
>>20695343
>You should illustrate an example.

e.g.
4chan version,

Person A espouses some idea (perhaps political perhaps not) to address a pertinent thing.

Person B seeks to demoralizes them with a false-equation character meme; "only neckbeards/whores/old/young (would be saying this)".

What was the aim of Person B?

>>20695405
>Is there some metaphysics of action and cohesion you're proposing under the guise of "socialogical" terminology?
>>20695343
>You should illustrate an example.

e.g.
4chan version,

Person A espouses some idea (perhaps political perhaps not) to address a pertinent thing.

Person B seeks to demoralizes them with a false-equation character meme; "only neckbeards/whores/old/young (would be saying this)".

What was the aim of Person B? As it could not be said to contribute anything but singularly to dissuade the other person, or the broader group; hence it was an action of social status seeking at the expense of the group having the effect in a little way to aggrandize the sociopath but having an effect in a much larger way to keep the group inert - to not think about the pertinent thing.

>>20691527
I wonder what male out-group bullying would end up being like

>>20692666
Prison culture is exemplified by effeminate characteristics such as group conformity, killing "rapists" (so the victim can give them a blowjob somehow, I guess) and general illogical behavior. when John Lennon proclaimed "woman is nigger of the world" he wasn't far off from the truth.

>how is my narcissistic injury someone else's fault and wholly revealing of their characters and not mine
>with special focus on anonymous putative groups on a Laotian bell ringing forum

>>20695989
>anonymous putative groups
anonymity makes self-aggrandizement as a motive far less likely to occur, hence: perfect medium
>not mine
def. not mine.
>'my' injury
laughable. whether we think about this as 'trolling' or IRL sociopathy the dynamics are endemic and common and have been the primary justification for censorship and tighter control (meaning less freedom) of all people.

>>20695970
hahaha that's obvious isn't it? Even the word 'bully' (bully and pimp, from the german) implies sexual aggression with the aim-in-mind to subjugate by force.

but then we would say hostile speech between genders are always acts of flirtation, and sometimes recognized as such, despite the cultural instance to be super-friendly and dull.

>>20695976
I'm not sure about this, in retrospect. I can see how the forced-confine would make it easier for sociopathic minded people to flourish, on the other hand it would make them far more likely to be stabbed to death or killed by a boiling bucket of bleach; with these murders taking the form of group-preservation and individual survival (as you have to kill those people early in any real life/death situation as they're such an impediment to survival,e.g. most likely to steal or distract the group with petty dramas).

Interesting thread OP. I encountered exactly this kind of phenomenon at a recent job I worked at,with a narcacistic rich kid attempting to use petty bullying to elevate his own status by putting down the people around him.

I ended it pretty quick by pissing in his milk (we had a shared living situation) then throwing all of his stuff off a three story balcony, destroying several thousand dollars worth of electronics. The cops were involved but because I left no evidence and denied everything they didn't do much. The sociopathic faggot left the next day, although there was a gratifying moment in the morning when I ran into him eating a bowl of pissed in corn flakes and complaining about how much money he lost.

Alternative counter measures to this sort of in-group sociopathy are poison, shankings, and the classic bar-of-soap-in-a-sock trick. Generally I find that such people live very low-stakes lives and rely on a highly regulated and safe society to protect them legally while they engage in petty social bullying. As soon as you confront them with actual violence they crumple fairly fast. You rarely see such behavior in third world countries with strong honour systems, since such behaviour quickly elevates to retaliatory killings. The tribal laws of Chechnya and Afghanistan are good resources for preventing such in group sociopathy, for example.

>>20696004
>anonymity makes self-aggrandizement as a motive far less likely to occur
>sauce: dude trust me, t. 4chan

>>20697822
>prove water is wet
If you, for example, are doing such a thing and it's not for your own self-aggrandizement in the eyes of others (i.e. not for tangible-actual social status), then it's either political - you don't want this topic to go forward into the society, which i think we both realize is far-fetched, or it's actual mental illness; a manic-depressive behavioral disorder (probably narcissistic oppositional defiant disorder), as you gain nothing and don't see the reaction of the other person, which you make up, which makes it an even greater mental and psychotic impairment.

The latter means you belong in a mental ward for your own protection (as people are liable to do you harm when you can't help yourself but do harm to them), the former means you just need to sit down and talk to a competent behavioral therapist to change how you talk to people - but nobody cares enough about (you) to convince you to do this.

>>20696694
>Generally I find that such people live very low-stakes lives and rely on a highly regulated and safe society to protect them legally while they engage in petty social bullying. As soon as you confront them with actual violence they crumple fairly fast.
This is entirely true, but this is Columbine; it's not optimal at all. Simply waiting for the victims to have to commit murder of the bully makes unnecessary hassle for the victim in the first place, they don't deserve to be bothered for the dereliction of whatever authority figure exists who failed to remove or correct the troublemaker whilst punishing the defensive response on the part of the innocent party. It makes more sense to identify the traits of the potential troublemaker and remove them far in advance, if, especially, we can understand that this one type of person is responsible for most, if not arguably all, daily griefs and impediments within any given group.

Presently, then, the entire society is censored and heavily policed using this one type of person and their acts as the justification. I mention this because it could be thought that to do anything about that one type of person would be too much work for the society, but contrarily it would be far less work.

>>20696694
>. As soon as you confront them with actual violence they crumple fairly fast.
Also,
there is the martyrdom seeking in this aspect; a person doesn't expect they're going to be blinded or crippled or killed for what they do, for instance, so they welcome the small violence or the verbal threats, more likely, as an excuse to claim their own victimhood.

The real question is why these people are allowed to wander the world.

>>20697956
>>20698001
I've been arrested for assault before and it was just a slap on the wrist, just have the foresight to not make it obviously premeditated. If you goad them into attacking you first you can fuck them up with a conveniently placed rock/hammer/whatever bad call it self defense.

Just be smart about it. These people are small fish in small ponds and often live entirely parasitic lives leeching from their parents/community, which allows them to have such a little sense of humility and consequences... The real world doesn't tolerate such behaviour and neither should you.

As a general rule, if you're insulted or victimized try to get revenge within a week. Don't leave evidence, don't talk to the cops, and make it swift and proportionate. You'll eventually get enough of a reputation that people will stop fucking with you.

Another story: once I ran into an old high school friend who had since become a crack whore, I invited her back to my house to catch up and even gave her se money. They next day she broke in and robbed the place. The day after I went to the projects where she worked and laid her ass out on the front lawn, then told her I'd kill her if I saw her around my place again. She never called the cops because she knew she was in the wrong and also had priors. After that I loses a few softer more liberally minded friends, but nobody ever broke into my house again and I didn't even have to lock the doors when I'd go out, despite this being a somewhat crime ridden area.

Just study how honour systems work in societies without a strong state monopoly of violence, and apply that to your own interactions with people. It will greatly improve your uqality of life.