/lit/ - Literature

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
The slogan 'Press On!' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
-Calvin Coolidge

>>20634380
>>20634480
Thank you anon

H g k d j t j f h

Only loosers waste time writing instead of living life and so they have. Itching to actually say
Touché grass and half sex I

After he, menancing in his hidden tweed fabrics, his period blood running down his hirsute, cut and trimmed thighs, had removed the sharp pressure of his favourite Jimmy Choo stilettos from my left nipple, finally allowing the aerola to slough off from the bleeding ducts onto the bamboo floor, Dr. Phil looked down at me, regarded me with a trace of contempt, arms akimbo and said: "I am disappointed in you. In both your actions - and in your thoughts."

>>20634497
>Touché grass and half sex
Illiterate
Seethe some more

If someone gives me pdf/epub of Boswell's book I'll take one for the team and review it.

I have a really great idea but it might be terrible I just need to fix it but you’ll steal it if I give any details but please help anyway. Thanks.

Ninth for Anime.

>want to write
>but I also want people to read what I write

I'm in for disappointment, aren't I

Would like some feedback for my opening. I'm trying to make it an absurdist piece where a main character's house is swallowed up by a massive sink then goes on all sorts of weird adventures trying to find their way back to the surface realm

>>20634662
Your opening line is terrible.

You need to put a period after happen to me.
>I was I heard a loud creaking noise...

It honestly feels very amateurish. Are you writing for a 4th-8th grade audience? If so, then all you need to do is work on the grammar and provide more "feelings"

>>20634602
RR has pretty decent discoverability mechanics all by itself. Easy to sort by tags and every time you update you get put on top of a list for people to read - obviously newer stuff bumps you off but at least it's something. The big caveat is a sizable portion of the readerbase won't waste their time reading things that are under, like, 100k words.

>>20634662
>"That was a strange noise," I said to myself while looking around the room for the source. Hopefully it's not a nigger.
10/10 bravo anon

>>20634662
Nah. This has all the flavor of Shredded Wheat.
You have a concept and that's it. You brought nothing to it.
Go read Antkind if you want to see some absurdism with style. He even regularly falls into holes.

Y'all use any of these AI writing aids like Novel AI or Sudowrite?

>>20634725
Give us the 411, anon. It’s news to me.

>>20634725
no. Why the fuck do you people need these things? If you can't generate one single sentence on your own you're not going to make it.

I did an edit of my Assassin twink story, and added a second story. I really did try to avoid as many I did x sentences as possible.

Hope someone can offer me some advice.

https://litter.catbox.moe/mwr5vg.pdf

>>20634758
You know the dall-e stuff for AI image generation?

There's the same stuff for text also. There's a few services out and about for working on things like blog posts but also novels.

You enter some self-written prose and give it some other basic info like character details to reference and hit "send" and it returns anywhere from one sentence to whole paragraphs based on mathematical deep learning of a massive database of data.

>>20634789
That sounds pretty neat. Does it read like a novel, or is the grammar/syntax all weird?

>>20634685
Building from this anon it's also generally stated that the readers have a strong bias towards LitRPG. Personally, I've been uploading a fantasy story with no RPG elements, about ~32k words spread over eighteen chapters, and after three weeks am only in the top ten thousand with 14 followers.

>>20634789
One day, the AI is going to be decent enough that big publishers are just going to use them, put in a ghost writer, market it to the masses like the sheep they are, they consume it and hail it as the next great novel. Soon there will never be another writer ever again.

>>20634804
It depends on the model being used and also on the input.

Novel AI is -pretty- good and affordable, but it's also a smaller model which is why it's cheaper. You can always go back and edit the output if anything's doofy or off, and you can always retry to your heart's content.

Something like Sudowrite uses OpenAI's model (The people behind Dall-E) and honestly it's output is leagues above what NAI puts out. It's honestly amazing, but it's also way more cost restrictive.

>>20634812
I'm not a big reader so I don't have a lot of experience to tell what "good writing" is, but I've been nothing but exceedingly impressed.

>>20634646
I used to do anime writing 15+ years ago. Only way I see myself revisiting the style is to have an otaku character POV imagining his life is literally a Japanese anime. I think I might just surf crystal cafe a bunch and make the protag a yume or something.

>>20634812
Computers will be writers. They will make it.

>>20634828
100%. You can absolutely write a really well written and coherent novel using only AI so long as you keep your hands on the wheel to keep it on the road.

>>20634789
it's important to note that the dall-e images you see are a massively gimped public version that intentionally fucks up details so nobody can abuse it. The proper model can produce images that are extremely good.

>>20634846
That's it, though, isn't it? We had this discussion over 100 years ago with Dada and Duchamp's Fountain. At the bottom of it all, human selection is the mechanism of art. As soon as we know something is mechanically produced we stop looking for a connection to it and start looking for cracks in the algorithm.

>>20634849
if thats real, fuck me

>>20634846
Writing is now dead. Not even the masters such as Melville can produce the soul and technique of something an A.I. can produce.

>>20634849
Where can I use it then?

>>20634859
>>20634863
Google the OpenAI Playground and sign up for the text completer. Try your hand at writing something and see what the AI gives you back.

You can also try out Novel AI. Like I said before, it's not the mercedes benz that is OAI's model, but it is still exceedingly capable. https://novelai.net/

>>20634859
100% real
>>20634863
Currently it is only available to a small number of people, mostly employees of OpenAI and some researchers. You can sign up for the wait list:
https://labs.openai.com/waitlist

>>20634858
It's not purely AI created though. It still needs a human driver. it's best to think of it as a vehicle.

>>20634860
I think you mean the humor.
>"Call me Ishmael," and then he said finally the line "All I'm afraid of is those women."
>In the beginning, it sounds like it's about love and compassion, yet it is actually about a group of kids. In reality, it's about a group of people going to school, learning, and doing what they love. When school turns into an after-school party, girls will be at home, talking to kids about homework and studying or singing or hanging out or going to a bar or playing sports. When classes turn into a day session at a local book store, they will be working together to finish things, talk to other girls, and then the kids come back home with a bottle of wine and some new clothes.
>"We're on a mission together and the truth is we can't make it if we don't love what we've done for the past three decades," says Ishmael. "We're going to be a part of bringing things together and being responsible people, so that there's a good relationship between us when it comes to work and school."

>>20634880
Human selection of words or human selection of AI output strung together into a story—doesn't make much of a difference. It's just a tool which will have the same effect that photoshop had on traditional rendering skills.

>>20634872
>AI makes my protag plant a tomato plant, wait, then try to pick it but it's not ripe yet. The tomato plant is already dying. He begins to regret an ex he broke up with too soon and is now complimenting every girl on earth to make up for it.
What in the goddamn

Speaking of AI, is there a generator out there that can produce a random action? As in, a random thing for a person to do, not particularly based on anything. I want to try to use something like that as a creative aid.

>>20634928
That would be the primary use of something like this in general, yeah.

>>20634907
Jesus take the wheel.

A writing thread where barely no one posts writing and, if they do, barely anyone responds. Even /crit/ was better.

>>20634954
IDK how many professional writers post on 4chins, anon.

>>20634654
Why do you think that? There are multiple places you can post your work online and get people to read it/provide feedback. Getting readers for your writing is easier than it has ever been

>>20634954
But I did post my writing
>>20634776

>>20634954
>even /crit/ was better
No it wasn't, and you know it. 9/10 of the writing posts were people writing their first paragraph of prose and not even bothering to edit it. Critiquing came down to pointing out extremely obvious grammatical errors, as well as fundamental mistakes in storytelling. At least /wg/ isn't cluttered with writing, since a decent amount of us post our work to RR and elsewhere. I'd much rather read an edited chapter or two from an anon than an unedited excerpt that isn't even really critiqueable since it isn't even a remotely finished state

>>20634978
This is more or less what it's like in the AI General on /vg.

People posting unedited blocks of text with zero linebreaks or any sort of formatting.

>>20634993
>>20634978
>>20634970
Since I know some anons don't want to download a pdf. Here's a jpg.

>>20634933
It was kind of neat to play around with but honestly I felt like it wanted to take the story in wildly different directions than I intended and had to hit retry and contextualize all the time. At any rate I don't think it could do more than a rough draft.

>>20634823
Sometimes that's how it goes. At chapter 18 I had 18 followers. I remember it specifically because on the release of that chapter I lost a follower and gained three, and the one that bounced left my only 0.5 star review. I have gradually clawed my way up with followers, while losing some here and there as the themes of the story pissed them off.

Aside from shilling here when it was first releasing I have done 2 shilling posts on reddit when I released chapter 32, which was the end of the first part of the story. One on /progressionfantasy, the other on /litrpg - those got me 10 followers. Then I made 1 comment on the RR forums shilling at around chapter 70ish, I dunno if that's gotten me any, but who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if it got me nothing. You should be writing for you, first and foremost, people will come if you keep plugging away but your focus should be on your story and making it the best story you can.

Worry about seriously marketing once it's fully complete and you're releasing it to paying customers on Amazon or somewhere. Reading your blurb you seem to understand that this is a cumulative endeavor: the more stories you write, the more reach you'll have.

>>20635007
Do not indent the first paragraph. Jumping between location or time can also signal that an indent is not needed.

>>20635036
Just out of curiosity, which did you use?

>>20635007
>My buttocks clenched together by instinct - I no longer could tell.
you edited and made a goof

>>20635047
>Do not indent the first paragraph.
Retard. That’s how all manuscripts are made.
https://www.shunn.net/format/classic/

>>20635053
Novel AI for stories. I would write a few lines out from scenes I had already written and see how well it could follow me if I tried to guide it. One thing I noticed is it seemed like it didn't want to build up a scene but get straight to a twist or major event as soon as possible. One interesting thing was one character brought out a recording of the protagonist and another character he recognized which I thought was a great idea because all throughout the story I had him do this, but never with videos about the protagonist himself.

>>20635007
a gift from anonymous:
—

>>20635071
Yeah NAI is a little not great at "show don't tell" it certainly prefer when left to it's own devices to say "thing happened" rather than explain the thing happening.

There are ways to fiddle with the output though. Like you can do something like

Description of John chopping down the tree:

or even

Description of John chopping down the tree:
John

And then it would fill in after John, whereas the first might start with "he" or "swinging his axe, John"

Other things like Sudowrite which use a stronger model in general has features explicitly to describe things. It even has a feature to explain what it's like for each of our senses. Sight/hearing/smell/taste/touch.

>>20635080
it's supposed to make the dash automatically. I'll double check what went wrong.
>>20635056
I should put back the word habit?
Instinct and habit — I could no longer tell

>>20635057
Oh, okay. I guess every single book I just thumbed through to double check was formatted incorrectly. My mistake.
I'll be sure to link those two dozen authors your PDF.

>>20635086
Well this isn't good. If people are just reading the first paragraph then commenting, then it isn't good enough. Oh no! I'll never have a proper story now!

>>20635088
Those books you “thumbed through” (and probably didn’t read) aren’t manuscripts, you dolt. They’re formatted for print. Have you ever had anything published? No. Otherwise you’d know the manuscript follows different formatting rules to what you see in the finished product.

>>20635105
It's clear you haven't had anything published either.
Here's a pro tip. If you're writing is wet dogshit, don't bother with manuscript formatting. If you can't get us to read past the first paragraph, no publisher will either. Save yourself the time and format it properly.

>>20635111
That wasn’t my excerpt. Do you know how 4chan works? We’re not all the same person.
I have 8 publications and counting. I also worked at a book company. Seethe.

>>20635115
Consider it advice for the both of you.

>>20635086
>I should put back the word habit?
This is a first person story. Remove the quotes and word I thought.
>Seduce the Captain, poison his drink and then escape. The plan was simple enough, yet this was the fortieth attempt. The sound of banter and hearty guffaw outside my bunk made my buttocks clenched. He's going to force me again. Another swig of mead whetted my lips. It's not like I don't enjoy it, but he really could stand to be a lot more gentle.
>On my left, a small vial...

>>20635118
Do publets really? You should be reading more and writing more instead of giving “advice,” because you’re terrible at that at the moment.

>>20635120
thank you anon.

>>20635057
>>20635105
>does one thing that conforms to manuscript formatting
>practically everything else is incorrect
>"it's good that he did this one thing because he was clearly trying to format for a manuscript! that's how it's done!"
What an absolute retard. It's pretty evident that he was doing basic story formatting and just didn't know better.

>>20634760
People who are afraid of new tech always get left in the dust. No one will even know unless I make it publicly known once Im huge

>>20635144
AI has been turing complete for a while.

>>20635141
You’re a retard for not following the flow of conversation. That other idiot said he shouldn’t indent the first paragraph, because he has never seen nor written a manuscript in his life.

>>20635165
>That other idiot said he shouldn’t indent the first paragraph
And he clearly shouldn't have. What kind of tard does manuscript formatting for a shitpost that will never see tradpub? It's also quite clear that he wasn't even attempting to. Are you going to pull out your colored pens and markdown your edits between those lines?

>>20635186
>Why do something in a style when it won’t see publication?
It’s called practice, anon. You should try it. You obviously don’t think it’s good form to even practice, though; instead, you spend all your time here thinking everything is a shitpost not worthy of anything except snappy remarks and epic witticisms.
>He wasn’t attempting to
So what? I bet you don’t pull that out when some writer does something good without realising it.

>>20635206
What an outright pathetic post.
I can't sit here all day explaining to you multiple times why practically no one here does manuscript formatting while you conflate my posts with another anon's just because we have the same name.
The anon clearly was not going for manuscript formatting and telling him to keep his fucked up formatting just because it's "one step in the right direction" is not good advice. I'm beginning to genuinely question these achievements you were so quick to put forward if this is your brand of advice.
Just admit your wrong and comfort yourself in whatever way you feel like.

>>20634776
>https://litter.catbox.moe/mwr5vg.pdf

Very good, anon, a work of genius.

I think in some of the "removing the I" from the sentence, you may have gone too far and forced yourself into contortions, but with practice you will figure it out.

As an example, you created a passage here that doesn't quite make sense: "The solution was simple. The top of one of the fifteen casks aboard the ship, rattled a knocking sound. As obvious as the sun rising, a voice erupted amongst the chatter of fools."

My suggestion would be along these lines:
The solution was simple. A few swift taps against one of the fifteen casks got their attention enough, and a voice erupted amongst the chatter of fools..."

Lots of little things like that but it would be kind of nitpicking at this point.

The important thing is that you are on the right track with a unique and interesting concept and your story is solidly paced.

I suggest we eventually learn more about his motives. Something deeper than simply orders from The Order. He ought to have something that he wants to achieve for himself too. There are plenty of tropes there such as determing his real identity, or revenge, or finding a long lost loved one, etc.

Also we expect that because the ship scene started the story, that somebody survived. There's always a survivor. And that sooner or later, somebody perhaps the law will be on his tail.

At some point you have to introduce that tension of him being the object of pursuit.

>>20634479
Hey, what are some cool secondary abilities that can go well with time magic or powers besides halting aging or manipulating temperature? What about space-based powers besides portals and shit like teleportation, Gravity manipulation, or pocket dimension bullshit?

>>20634928
Check out solo on /tg/ they have oracle's.

>>20635343
I already mentioned a previous thread you should try manipulating the paths of electrons aka electron clouds because the probabilities determine how things react. It could open up very unique synthetic pathways or temporary hold something unstable together and then let it release or absorb energy or cause any number of acute medical conditions you could find on an SDS.

>>20635418
>>20635343
Every resolution to every conflict in this story is going to be a JoJo tier asspull, I can already tell.

>>20634776
Would you ever be able to publish this work?

What agents seem to want is so frustrating. I hate the latest trend of publishing where an MFA midwit with mundane experiences and dull thoughts thinks they're the bee's knees and a super edgy badass. I want to take these idiots and strangle them, and then strangle their agents. And it should be fucking illegal to put so much emphasis on what race you desire the author to be. I feel how negroes in 1922 must have felt.

>>20635496
The agents who want solely diversity quotas aren't agents worth querying anyways. When I finish my next book I'll be going trad pub route and trying my hand at querying. I'm ready to get crushed.

>>20635343
>time magic
overpowered, go back to the drawing board
>I can come up with a suitable drawback
any drawback that would balance how op time magic is would be excessively onerous

>>20635451
>trad publishing smut
nope. the way you make money with smut is by self publishing as many 10k-30k stories as you can.

>>20635343
there's a comic book website that lists every power known to man

https://writingtipsoasis.com/literary-agents-seeking-new-clients/

a lot of these agents look for lgbt stuff

>>20635660
So the secret to getting published in 2022 is to force a gay/lesbian relationship into your novel?

>>20635523
You're right but it's still shitty. I'm going to try my hand at a project halfway between what I want and what they want and see if I can land a sale. (Not my first novel.) Drives me crazy what a stranglehold sjw has on the industry.
>>20635676
not enough. you have to live and breathe wokeism.

How the hell do you come up with premises? I can't for the life of me come up with something that I don't end up thinking is stupid 5 minutes into trying to develop it
Last time this was asked somebody mentioned Paul Schrader's advice to take the biggest concern you have and turn it into a metaphor. Although I have a lot of ideas I'd like to write about, I just can't figure out how to turn them into stories

>>20635339
>I suggest we eventually learn more about his motives. Something deeper than simply orders from The Order. He ought to have something that he wants to achieve for himself too. There are plenty of tropes there such as determing his real identity, or revenge, or finding a long lost loved one, etc.
I just planned for him to be a serial killer that only can find sexual release from killing his victims.

The next chapter has him killing a sexy big titty Huntress woman. I'm trying to make the huntress a caricature of Katniss. Anyone have good stories featuring this trope besides Hunger Games?

If you’re using AI to aid your writing, you really need to fuck off. Truly subhuman.

So, apparently I wrote a novella or light novel or something without realizing it.
It's trash designed to literally only appeal to me personally, but I want someone to read it because I can't even get the people I love most in the world to read my serious writing.
Please, I'm desperate for anyone to read anything. Having my works go unread is unbearable. Call me cringe, flame it, shit on it. Do as you like. Just please give it a try.
https://pastebin.com/s4dG3ZbM

>>20635827
go to news.google.com
take 3 headlines and come up with a premise

>>20635931
Read 2 paragraphs and 2 knocks against you:
>1. Takes place in glorious nippon (yikes, incel alert)
>2. Tons of repetitive filler and filter text, i.e. the type of property, one of the little suburbs, one of those western style, before her very eye

The narrator voice just felt very disconnected from it all. Keep studying craft though and if it makes you feel any better nobody I know has any interest in my shit either, don't even bother mentioning it.

>>20634776
Am I supposed to fap, be terrified, or revolted? Because I feel all three.
>There was only a single soul left on the cursed barrage. The lump of flesh stilled on the mattress. My objective. Strands of rope hung on the walls of the chamber, those made of twine and used for drying out cleaned clothes. The circumference of each strand wrapped nicely around the ankles and wrists of the Captain. Knots learned from my voyages of the sea secured his limbs to the posts of the bed. His naked body still laid in drunken stupor, unaware of the punishment he brought. My fingers slid between the strands of fur that adorned his chest. Every prick of hair ticked the bottom of my palms. I found myself mounted on top of him, with my loins pressing against his. A pleasure I would never forget. There I stayed, gently rocking my hips, waiting for the Captain to awaken. He needed to know. To understand the anger infesting inside.
Hours passed. Finally, his eyes opened. His familiar moan enticed my mouth to greet him as I always had the last thirty-nine times.
>“Good morning Captain.”
>“Esthar?” He attempted to move his arms, quickly realizing his predicament. “Untie me Esthar!”
>“Why Captain? I like you this way.” Allowing his member to rub across my body as my lips touched the tip. I gave the Captain a lick.
>“Esthar. Not now.”
>My tongue flicked against his member again. “Captain. You don’t have a choice.” >Remounting him, flashing the dagger in my hand twirled between the tip and handle. Gravity let our bodies consummate alongside the rhythm of the roiling tides that rocked the Vermillion.

>>20635962
I know you actually read part of it because that's all very true.
Thank you very much. You don't know how much that means to me.

>>20634776
>Esthar
>Isander
You changed the protag's name.

>>20635237
>your wrong
You're*
Bit flustered, are we?

>>20634928
I've used Pathfinder resources before.
(Pathfinder is an offshoot of Dungeons & Dragons v3.5.)
There's a random adventure generator on page 173 of the Tome Of Secrets.
There's a random character generator, i.e. the NPC Creator’s Toolbox on page 94 of the GameMastery Guide.
They won't do all the work, but they're nice for random inspiration.

>>20635147

>>20636036
Was wondering how long it would take you to spot that. Was expecting it to take a little less than 4 hours, but I'm not here to judge.

>>20635046
Yea, I'm not to serious about marketing since I also just release chapters when 'they're ready' rather than aiming for a competitive schedule slot

>>20634725
Just tried it out. It turned two of my characters gay for each other. Quite a plot twist, I had a good laugh.

>>20635046
How do you only have 4 reviews with 148 followers and 65k views? I'd recommend being more active on the forums or something, since reviews are weighted pretty heavily when it comes to ranking

>>20636131
I was in a car for three hours. I know you people sit at home all day on a work day doing nothing, but some of us have careers and shit.

>>20636131
>>20636261
Are you tards seriously in a multi-post argument over someone else's use of an indent?
Damn, pick your battles.

Also, when I'm writing my rough drafts I like to indent my paragraphs and double space because it just feels more comfortable for me when going over it again. Probably just a habit I picked up at some point, but who the fuck cares.

Anyone ever watch those Coursera or Masterclass courses for writing?
Is it more for motivation or do they give good advice?

I like to steadily get more terrifying and abstract, with an increasing focus on cosmic horror. Except my take on cosmic horror is a bit stranger than most. Instead of basically saying "Oh he went insane looking at this thing cuz it's incomprehensible," I try to make the reader struggle to comprehend what the fuck I'm describing. Like so, in this creature description
>It's head emerged from the event horizon, the ring of light around it folding in on itself before bursting into spikes. The scanners went haywire, as if the beast was already in front of them. It leaned sideways and forwards at once, in on itself and outwards. The head then showed up in the vision of all present, even those who were looking away, before folding and unfolding into a shape with no sides. A color with no name. A sound with no noise. A shape without form. That is what this thing was, is, and will continue to be.

>>20636326
Its*
But I like that concept a lot. It's an interesting way to make an old trope feel very alien and new. The use of the word beast is very good too, I think it evokes somewhat Biblical imagery but it's still beyond comprehension in any material form we know.

>>20636326
Can't lie, that's pretty fucking terrible.
I ended up just kind of picturing a bigass blob, nothing really horrific about it.

>>20636330
>>20636332
The duality of man

>>20636340
Sange is ESL; his vocabulary and imagination is so bad, everything is amorphous and blob-like when he reads.

>>20636342
>>20636342
>a shape with no sides. A color with no name. A sound with no noise. A shape without form. That is what this thing was, is, and will continue to be.
Okay, shape with no sides, color with no name, fine.
But sound with no noise? Thats the whole fucking point of a sound being a sound. Fight me.

>>20636350
It could be on a lower or higher frequency that you can't hear it, nor most beings. There are sounds in space with no noise in the sense there's no gas around to pass it through, either, but they could probably be picked up with some instrument.

Day 24 editing
Had to delete interlude cause it was too much spoiler
My word count drops
My boner rises

>>20636258
That's total views not average.
>>20636468
What's your story?

>>20636503
It's underpinning is about realistic human interaction in the fantasy genre.

>>20636258
>How do you only have 4 reviews with 148 followers and 65k views?
I dunno. When I finish posting the book in ~12 chapters I'm going to ask people to leave a review, and I'm going to solicit opinions for what they want to see in the sequel. I have the general plot sort of mentally mapped, but there's a lot of details that'll be needed. I was planning on doing a big shilling spree when I start releasing the sequel on RR and I move the first one to amazon a couple weeks after that.

As far as chapter views I expect it's fairly typical, except chapter 8 has a sex scene and all my chapters with sex scenes have less views, by at least a couple hundred, than the surrounding chapters. Chapter 11 is where the gender change happens so the dropoff there is also expected. After Oath there's another 200 drop because that's the chapter they learn the girl is dead, like years dead, no getting better, no takesies backsies, the girl is fucking dead.

>>20636350
You know how you can feel sound? That’s what I mean

>>20634867
>Like I said before, it's not the mercedes benz that is OAI's model, but it is still exceedingly capable.
I just gave this a shot and it's completely useless and absurd. I took a story I've stalled out on and put the text in, let it start autocompleting the story. This is what I got:

>Danny threw the suitcase into the back of the truck, then walked around to the passenger side and opened the door for her. He watched her intently as she walked to the side of the truck, making no attempt to hide his gaze as he looked her up and down. He snorted derisively and Jessica's jaw tightened. What was he snorting at? She climbed up and a moment later Danny was in the driver's seat. The truck rumbled loudly as it came to life, and soon they were pulling out of the parking lot onto the highway, heading back the way she'd come.
>“Is this really the entire town?” she asked as the gas station vanished into the rearview and they headed towards what looked to be a forest. “Just one gas station?”
>“Pretty much. There is a town, Kincheloe, a few miles back, off the main highway. It's got a prison.”
>“A prison?”
>“Yeah, lot of people around here work there. As guards and such. Thought about doing that myself, but then Rusty offered me a job at the camp, and I figure I can always apply in fall.”
Danny turned off the highway onto a side road heading back north.
>“You want to be a prison guard?” she asked.
>Danny nodded.
>“Why?”
>"I like them,” Danny shrugged.
>Jessica thought about that. She knew that she liked women even though she'd never been with one. She hadn't really given a whole lot of thought to why she enjoyed spending time with them. It just sort of happened. She supposed it wasn't that different from being gay or straight.
>“What do you mean?” Jessica asked.
>“They're just so... nice. They don't judge. If someone's drunk, they'll give 'em a ride home. They won't take advantage.”
>“That doesn't sound very hard,” Jessica said.

Everything after "You want to be a prison guard?" she asked. was AI-generated. You'll notice it immediately made my MC a lesbian and Danny vaguely queer. I'd say fuck this gay machine, but it'd probably like that.

>>20634867
novelAI has the memory of a goldfish

>>20634497
What too much pussy does to a mf

>>20635007
>three-dash em dashes
>two dot ellipses

Is there a sort of list of things people like seeing in stories? I have this tunnel vision when I'm writing and only write stuff that seems cool to me in that moment, and then I see other people's story and see there's loads of things I never considered. Stuff like
>characters being forced to make hard decisions that test their values
>status quo being shaken up
>chess-like intricate battles of wits
>late payoffs to early setup and hints
>heroes triumphantly persevering
>etc

>>20637240
>fantastic writing

>>20637240
Brief moments of eroticism if one character is attracted to another. Usually just a character looking at another one and making observations.

>>20637240
Man's best friend, the dog, trying to warn man of an impending alien invasion.

>>20635827
Bumping this post

>>20635827
Premise doesn't matter. Everything seems dumb if you look at it closely enough. Stop micro-analyzing something that ultimately doesn't matter.
>a pedophile abuses a young girl across the country and commits a murder in jealous rage
>a couple people do shit in Dublin
>a couple of midgets walk a long way so they can drop a ring in a volcano
Premise is by far the least important aspect of writing. If you hate every premise you come up with, you have an error in your mentality. First, choose something you like. Make sure you like it. Then, choose to continue liking it. Ignore that little voice that tells you to cripple yourself in the very beginning stages of writing. Finally, just fucking write. Recognize that self-doubt is an integral component of writing. If you aren't doubting yourself, you probably don't care that much about what you're doing. We all feel doubt. It's an emotion, and we don't get to choose our emotional states. What we do get to choose is the way we let our emotions guide our actions. Choose to avoid that. Trust the instinct you had when you came up with the idea and CHOOSE to continue on.

Is it even possible to write starting from theme? Most seem to suggest that it isn't, that you must start with story or characters and the theme will suggest itself. But if that's the case, why do so many great works seem like the author had something important to them that they had to express, and storytelling was merely a means to communicate it? A lot of classic works (and not just in literature) seem like they were written with specific intent, not just the author going "hmm, wouldn't this be cool to write about" with the themes suggesting themselves later

>>20637310
Honestly, it's less self-doubt (though no doubt that's also involved) than it is me doubting that the premise I've chosen is able to reflect my ideas well.
For some context, I've written and directed some short films in the past, but they all ended up being abstract, formless reflections on mood. The stories that work best for me are those that make emotional contact first, which then simmer in the mind to inspire reflection on the ideas expressed within them. That's what I'd like to be able to do, and I know it'll take an immense amount of practice to get there, but I find it hard to practice with writing stories that don't seem to be about anything substantial to me

>>20637399
>I find it hard to practice with writing stories that don't seem to be about anything substantial to me
Well, with abstract film it is the medium itself which is often on display. Abstract film is completely powerless without it. The director forsakes arbitrarily certain conventions of the medium and approaches it on its own merit. On the creative side, it's a more personal creation than is conventional, plot/story driven film. Experimental literature is much the same way, in my opinion. It starts with the writer's interactions with the written word rather than starting with ideas and using words kind of incidentally along the way.

I'm not a filmmaker (although I do love the medium), so I may be slightly or wholly off on this hot take. But I do think that writing CAN be a much more exploratory experience than is filmmaking. In filmmaking, I imagine that even for the most improvisational, experimental shots, there's always some degree of preparation. You have at least an idea of what you will see through the viewfinder the first take. This isn't necessarily an obligation when writing. My own personal philosophy WRT theme, ideas, etc., is often to just write the words my brain wants to write, and make sense of it myself later. I find that theme and ideas in their most organic form are the things that seep into my writing of their own accord, and that they do so mostly automatically based on what's captivating me at the time.

I don't know if any of that is useful at all, but my advice is always to just focus first on the words. Focus on the medium in the same way you focus on setting up an aesthetically pleasing shot in film. Let the rest fall into place.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert. Only a fool would take anything written above as fact or advice.

>>20635827
Use simple story plot (like revenge) and slowly add the parts you want to the world. for example if you want to write about getting /fit/, make a story about revenge, then make him get into fitness to be able to beat the bad guys. things like that. and like the other anon said, stop hating your premises and just start writing about it, you yourself will notice if it was bad or not in the middle of writing. don't judge it before actually writing anything

Janny delenda est.

>>20637575
>or: how i came to love airplane mode

>>20637240
https://storygrid.com/genres-of-writing/

there's also tv tropes

>>20637349
i've heard of people doing it
it's like the theme is a seed and the rest of the story grows from it
so, if you had a theme like, "be yourself." you'd have a protagonist who is pretending to be something other than himself. he's a fraud.
then you'd have another character is being deceived by this fraud.
and so on
this is too complicated for me. i just go with an outline

Thoughts on my writing?
https://pastebin.com/E7rJaRaF
I'm really avoiding info-dumps even though I know that an info-dump would make the story much more interesting.

>>20637238
Sorry that's just Google docs messing up the format. It's fixed. Is that all that's bad about it?

I haven't written in over two months. What are your thoughts on it?

https://pastebin.com/DyHsk2uX

>>20634479
Do you only write novelistic prose or do you also do screenplays, poetry, comic scripts, etc?

>>20637878
I don't know. I saw glaring grammatical errors and stopped reading, like anyone reasonable would.

>>20638027
mostly novels here but there's no rules
most of us would have trouble reading a screen play

I'M GOING TO DO IT
I'M GOING TO SELL OUT

I'll have a saleable novel in 6 months and force those bastards to publish me. I'm going to check all their god damned little boxes.

>>20638060
The pain of cutting your dick off is temporary.
Being remembered as an author is forever.

>>20638030
Well I'll redo the cutting and pasting job then.

>My RR story finally starts introducing a secondary character who isn't a fucking psychopath murderhobo
>not even a viewpoint character
>rating falls, multiple unfollows
God damn do I ever wish every single other site for web fiction wasn't total garbage. As if watching "LE EPIN SOOPER NECROMANCER [A STORY WITH PLENTY OF BLUE BOX PADDING LOL]" stories rocket to 500x the numbers I get in a tenth of the time wasn't bad enough, now I have to sit here and brace myself for future blowback because I didn't write to the average 14 year old's shit taste.
At least I can complain on /wg/ and never post my story. Maybe I'll give the link if I ever give up, so you can all downrate it too. At least that would be funny.

>>20637700
Too much ink spent on hair color talk and highly detailed talk of fort design IMHO, and then just telling us the plot "lord is greedy, this guy is too young". Narrator felt distant from MC's mind (movie cameras style).

Take this with a big grain of salt but I think you may actually need to slow things down so we can get to know MC. Give the funeral time to breath and have him talk about his situation with someone - or just open with him going to address the lord with his request and have the funeral be a haunting memory.

I liked the sense of urgency though and overall setup seems interesting.

>>20638150
I don't think any of us have ever downrated another anon's RoyalRoad story. Even Boswell doesn't have any 0*- 2* ratings on his.

>>20638187
I hate to inform you, but anything under a 4.5 is basically a downvote due to how shitty the rating system is. Hell, if you're rated high enough, even a 4.5 damages your story. The RR admins are fucking retards who don't understand math.

Trying to start a secondary series to write just for romance to mimic the hope ford model of success for some extra money but it all feels so brainless
The only romance I've written has been self indulgent fanfic since I keep romance out of my original works typically
I'm just a lot of levels of frustrated now
Probably not the best time for this since I had a recent breakup and haven't written anything in like five days now
I was making a lot of progress on my other writings too
Fuck it feels bad man

>>20638060
And you'll get snubbed because you're not a tranny/nigger/kike and/or don't personally know someone high up in the publishing house.

>>20638041
Novels died in the 50s.

>>20638160
honestly, I was going to get the MC to meet a Seer (or druid) after he kills the lord by the end of the first (or second) chapter, to talk about the whole thing. You are right about me writing it as if it's a movie camera, which is the only way i can comfortably write in because English isn't my native language. there is many talk of hair color (and skin color in the future) because the actual plot is a conquered group (forest people) of people rebelling against the conqueror(horse riders) so distinguishing them from hair and skin color, along with pointy ears is important because the ethnic groups would never be explicitly named. They will only be known as different from their names, skin and hair color, what they wear and their interpretation of deities. The story will get into how those horse riders managed to conquer a forest, something they can't do normally without losing the advantage of horses. thanks a lot for reading it though I appreciate it and will give more thought to the introductory part of the novel. I will transcript the next part where they talk in the keep, which would explain the setting more and post it here.

>>20638341
>jews are 2% of the population but 90% of literary agents

I feel like I use dialogue tags too often but it feels unrealistic and like animu cringe to imply the characters are just stood there talking. How often is too often?

>>20638511
I'm having an issue where I insert the tag after the first clause every single time and I just noticed it
>"blah blah blah," he said, "blah blah blah blah blah!"
now it really bothers me.

>>20638521
>>20638511
The vast majority of people will never see an issue with your usage of these. Be varied enough to not bring attention to it, but also try to remember that you've likely never read a book where the dialogue tags took you out it.

>>20638521
I do that in most of my dialogue since it feels the most natural. i don't see the problem.

>>20638521
Most don't notice it. It slightly bugs me every time. I have an autistic idea in my head that the perfect version would always convey the info who is speaking without needing to be explicit but I'm no great author so I don't know where I got this snobbish idea.
I like to accompany the speech with an action to start with.
>The gay writer raised his glass, "writing is gay!"
The default assumption is the guy doing the thing is talking. I would say the right place to add "x said" is when it's unexpected.
>The gay writer raised his glass.
>"Writing is gay!" the town rapist screamed, "I will rape all the gay writers!"

I'm writing a character with cognitive dissonance. On one hand, he values his honor above all else, but on the other, he is never sober because of high anxiety forcing him to drink to be able to preform. I've two different ideas on how to spin it into the plot. The first is for him to see his drinking as a good albeit shameful thing and so he hides it; the other is that he sees his drinking as a bad thing, but still feels like he HAS to do it to keep up a fearless appearance. Going with the latter option as of now, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

>>20634479
I need some help getting opinions about the idea that a person should never be content, and to always strive for greatness.

The book I'm writing has heavy themes of personal contentment v. greater satisfaction.

Basically, the main character is trying to find meaning in life (very original, I know) and the message that the MC and me are asserting, is that a person doesn't actually need any actual concrete meaning to be content with yourself and your life. One of the main conflicts of the story happens when the MC meets a group of people that are determined to undertake a mission- they don't know what will happen if they "succeed" or even if they can, but they deride the MC for not "fighting" for something greater than himself.

I just don't know how to make them articulate it, without them sounding like cartoon characters. Help?

>>20638682
You're the author use your imagination. If I could answer it for you, I'll write it myself

>>20638676
by honor do you mean image or prestige? Or the approval of his parents or a code of ethics? Is he honor-bound to conduct himself soberly or keep his body pure? Is he a surgeon who needs alcohol to do brain surgery and save lives while knowing he's destroying his own life? Is he a preacher who performs in front of thousands of people at a megachurch preaching the sins of vice? Need more specifics.

>>20638710
Well, sure, but what I'm looking for is more along the lines of personal opinions.

>>20638716
Write it first.

>>20638741
okay

>>20637135
Weird, it did the same thing when I put a sample of my story into it.
The one girl instantly went "D-do you have a boyfriend?" to the other girl who blushed and said no. The first girl then went into a monologue about how she doesn't know if she's gay or not but she just gets a warm feeling in her chest around her.

It was completely out of character for the first girl to say something like that, and the second girl has a very clear male love interest in the story.

Yeah, AI is trying to eliminate humanity by making us all fags.

>>20638150
whats your story about though?

>>20638758
Eat a bag of shit, Sange. I told you not to respond to my posts.

One thing that does impress me about the AI is that it will draw on details from thousands of words back. There was something about a notebook that I wrote way back in the story that the AI had a character think about again. Pretty impressive.

I'm getting the idea that if you are stuck and have no idea what to write next the AI can occasionally by pure luck manage to push you in the right direction. It's kind of a crap-shoot though, sometimes it spits out absolute nonsense, or it just reveals a total lack of true understanding of the situation.

Why does this thread hate Japan?

>>20638775
Trip it up then, faggot. I'm assuming this is rape-anon.
Look, sorry I hurt you, I actually mean that. I kind of felt a little bit bad about it. Like, I didn't lose sleep over it or anything but I was kind of like "yeah, that was mean I should have gone a little easier on him."
So yeah, sincerely, I'm sorry.

>>20638771
Well, it's not a romance.

What important questions should you ask when creating a fictional country or race?

>>20638805
why are they different and considered a different race than the existing one in the setting

>>20638795
you don't have to be too specific, just post your sub-genre tags.

>>20638771
Well, up to this point, a murderhobo of questionable mental state blundering his way through some things in search of a vague goal given to him by a voice in his head. However, in a more overarching sense, it's a story about the consequences of violence and the futility of man's desire to have freedom from cosmic forces beyond our comprehension. That latter bit is very much background themes though. At the currently released point, it would be fair to say that it's a story about an amoral psychopath having to blend in with a society of normal people to accomplish a goal that only makes sense to him.

What would cause an informant accidentally reveal himself to be an informant? Other than being dumb?

>>20638859
>you don't have to-
Damn right bitch, I don't HAVE to do anything.

>>20638870
the classics: overconfidence, paranoia, sex—or just that it was obvious to everyone except the person being informed on

>>20638870
i saw a movie once where the guy was wearing a wire to record some sketchy meeting for the police, but he was nervous and was sweating a lot so the sweat leaked into the battery of the equipement strapped to his chest and burned him, and he had trouble acting normal. don't remember the movie and it felt sort of stupid since im not sure if batteries work like that.

>>20638795
No. Don't respond to my posts.

>>20638859
He'll never be specific because he's a poseur who doesn't actually write. The only thing he's capable of writing is excuses why he can't show any of us his writing. Any claims he makes to be published are obvious lies.

>>20638977
>No. Don't respond to my posts.
Today I learned Anonymous is just one really fast same-fag.

>>20638792
I'm actually reading Mishima this week.

>>20638682
try using symbolism? the people of the group tell him a comical story about current contentment v. greater future happiness. and he responds to the story and tells his view.

>>20638792
Japan and the Japanese are great. Wapanese, on the other hand, are gay af.

>>20634479
Hmm surely its a coincidence that all of my main characters seem to be lonely and suffer crippling addictions

>>20638779
It's a vehicle that you have to drive. It works under what's called "context" which is the memory of tokens already on the page. It can only "remember" things up to so many tokens so the color of someone's dress will eventually fall off and be forgotten, but it drives smoother the more context it has, you just have to steer it by making appropriate edits to those minor details. But if you just don't like the direction it's going, you don't have to just let it go that way. Hit the retry button until you get something you do like, or at this point you've probly got your noggin joggin so you can just add more on your own and then tell it to go again once you hit another stop.

https://pastebin.com/8e9AfG2W

>>20635859
>People who use photoshop aren't real artists

>>20639451
Maybe that's what you need to tell those stories but maybe some time try to look at different yearnings, characteristics, backgrounds and vices people have.

>first character comes from a poor rural family, becomes a self-made man, quiet, fiercely loyal to his wife and has atheistic background. All he wants is not to be forced to make any decisions, to be let alone.
>protagonist in next story is middle upper-class, got rich, loyal to no one, has surface level Methodist background and all he wants is to find a love that will last
>tentative outline after is a lower-class Baptist woman who loves her family but struggles with narcissism and trust issues
>another is an upper-class historian who is incredibly patriotic and stubborn, he is on a quest to vindicate his beliefs when they are challenged

>>20639712
Some problems I read. You should switch to past tense. It reads funny when you put it in present perfect. If you do put it in present, you can usually omit the were, has, am, etc.

I also hate the odd fantasy prose of fragments someone popularized. No idea who, sense fantasy books refrain from it, but someone in the world popularized the fragments. It's really annoying to read when overdone. I also would like it to start with Verhir instead of the women. Let us know who the story focuses on first.

My story has over the top fights that destroy a lot. No, you will not stop me.
>Muh artistry!
Fights are art

>>20638682
Have the MC be satisfied with making and meeting goals, and with each goal the MC sets the bar higher for the next. The desire to stay mediocre or just "OK" should probably induce a sense of revulsion or panic, as it does me, since I'm striving for greatness myself. The MC can punish themselves for failing a goal or can merely mope around and feel sorry for themselves, and then on the morrow they get back on the horse. There will be times when they just want to take it easy and coast, even though they're telling themselves you're wasting time and will live to be quite ordinary, but the pressure from friends or family to "take it easy" along with their own desire for a break will push them toward just being content.
Some combination of this with a reasonable plot should make it a good story..

>>20639791
Thanks, I really find it difficult to write in present desu, but i will try to change things a bit. I think I picked up that fragments prose from reading multiple novels by RA Salvatore. Will try to not overdo it though.

>>20638866
Sounds interesting, i'll keep an eye out for something resembling it in latest updates (provided it doesn't have the tags timeloop, xinxia or harem).
Don't let the edgy snowflakes get you down lad and keep writing.
>YGMI

>>20639855
>provided it doesn't have the tags timeloop, xinxia or harem
I'd sooner actually kill myself than write a story that falls into those groups. Timeloop is the most palatable of those, and it's still an awful trope 99.99999% of the time.

I have greatly improved on working on my reading and writing consistently. This December I should be done. I'm hoping to finish before then but I've given myself a couple months of room since beta reading takes 4 weeks and my line editing after might take 4 more, but man I hope not. Everything conceptually has come together though so I feel the thrust of the drama in the key scenes where it used to fall flat.

>>20638870
A figurative ticking time bomb, he has to get out of there fast without looking suspicious

>>20634479
just look at all those women, ready to get blacked

The faggots are coming online. GMT rules supreme.

>>20637700
>https://pastebin.com/E7rJaRaF

Why are you writing it like a play? You ought to use complete sentences and write it like a story.

>>20635931
>https://pastebin.com/DyHsk2uX

It's quite decent, anon. Boring (for me) but decent. I'm sure for some people it would be right up their alley though.

You should publish it somewhere. Make some anime/manga kind of cover and put it up on Amazon or something.

The only minor quibble in the beginning is that you use "mansion" to mean mansion, even though you know, being a weaaboo and all, that in Japan "mansion" means an apartment building. Maybe switch it out for estate or something like that? Not that big of a deal though as it becomes clear in later paragraphs that it's not an apartment building.

>>20635148
I know you don't care, I know no one on this board cares, but Turing Complete has nothing to do with the Turing Test. It just means it can simulate a Turing Machine. Every programming language is Turing Complete.

>>20635834
>I just planned for him to be a serial killer that only can find sexual release from killing his victims.

It would still benefit from a broader arc though to pull it all together.

Another suggestion for you is to consider whether you really want to write from first person POV rather than third person. Third person will offer some advantages including fewer usages of the same pronoun, since in dialogue you will say "I" but in narrative you would say "he" to refer to your protag.

Third person omniscient or third person limited may be better for your story. Omniscient may be a bit advanced for you, but limited should be as easy to write as first person. Just something to think about. If you rewrite the first chapter you can compare the two versions side by side to see which works better before you go further into the story.

Likewise with past vs present tense.

>>20640158
Thank you for your compliments, anon.
I'll consider your advice.

Written with love for /wg/, the long awaited edit.

My gay little love story is here (it's not gay as in homosex, but gay as in feelings and love): https://www.aeppheyon.com/work/unto-god-as-to-nature

I even attempted an audiobook, and boy let me tell you how tough the parameters are to post it on audible. so I made it for youtube: https://youtu.be/g0ENhJQ-aBI

please, grade me very harshly.

>>20638027
I wrote a screenplay when I intended to write my novel, and completed it, but I can never show it to anyone.

>>20638345
The point of writing a novel these days is to get TV/film people interested.
That's where the real money is.
Even my literary hero, Philip K. Dick, wrote 44 novels, but didn't really see success until he sold the rights for the movie that became "Blade Runner".

>>20638870
Drawing from a real-world example...a person dressed entirely too warm for the circumstances. They were trying to hide the recording equipment.

>>20640716
You can also do well if you manage to get a better contract and especially after beating your advance which isn't easy. The only other tip I've heard is line edit as faithfully as you can. I forget the name of the book but this one genrefic author claimed he go consistent royalties on one of his novels because he line-edited with another author every damn line. So even though his story was about the same caliber as the rest, the prose was far more attractive and got people to recommend it more to their friends. That's all besides media adaptations and unprecedented book sales which no one can predict.

why is the Japanese incapable of writing anything but toxic positivity stories nowadays?

>>20640211
I tried the first page with a 3rd person narrative, but I think it makes for a less funny narrative.

>>20634662
I actually like your first line. Change "me however," to "me, but", change "I was I heard a loud creaking noise which made me very alert." to "a sudden load creaking noise startled me.", remove "to myself", change "the source" to "its source", put a comma after "what was coming" and "countless times", and change the comma after "myself" to a period.

How do you go about deciding how to describe a character (or not). I don't really see the point of describing them as it doesn't really relate too much to the story. Is it better to let them imagine the character themselves or fill it in for them?

>>20641010
It’s not uncommon for someone to have a mirror in their room. When you have them getting out of bed just have them look in the mirror and describe themselves. It’s what I do in practically all of my stories.

>>20634479
A part of my story I liked doing is where a pair of characters who previously haven’t met end up bonding over sharing important life experiences and circumstances despite being opposites overall. Specifically, an old woman and a young girl become friends over the fact that they’re both dealing with very similar issues in their lives.

>>20641077
That is a VERY tired cliche.

New story I started today when the idea crossed my mind.
It's called "Death is a Girl"
Critique please and don't hold back.

>>20641077
>>20641194
and this was a complete coincidence, I swear. I didn't read the thread before posting.

I love describing the protagonist through an outside force and what they think of him. It’s one of his mentor figures who’s talking just for context
>You know that… Thing?
>First of all, do not call him a thing. But yes, I work with him from time to time. He’s a good youth, if a very aimless one. I didn’t really train him like I did you, though, as I mostly just spent time trying to get to know him in a sense. Which was hard because he can’t talk and I didn’t even know he was friendly or even sapient at first. I mean, he was covered in blood and eating the entrails of a tiger when he first approached me. But then he calmly walked in and just gave me a hug, likely because I saved his life earlier that week.
>You sound like an idiot, stop it

Day 25 editing
Chapter 22 locked down
Thank fuck i'm rereading this
Corrected so much plot ruining shit today

>>20641290
I hope you have sensitivity readers

>>20641077
I was more so wondering why I should give detail to my character. Is it better for the reader to imagine the character or for the author to describe them?
For context the story heavily focuses on one characters monologue/journey.

>>20641168
I agree, but a cliche doesn't necessarily equal bad.

>>20634486
so true and has been resaid into multiple generational self help books

>>20641296
>Letting some beta's gatekeep my words
Nah i'm good thanks

>>20640147
since this is the third time someone comments on it, I will just read the Artful Sentences book. But to answer your question, It's probably because i write things as I imagine it and I use drawings, made by myself, to help me describe things better, so it comes off as if it's a screenplay. I will try to adjust though.

>>20641298
On mirrors, lately I noticed a few things, first in Ulysses:
>Decent little soul he was, Mr Power said to the stalwart back of Long John Fanning ascending towards Long John Fanning in the mirror.
Joyce uses the mirror comedically by allowing him to be redundant.
In one of Hemingway's short stories, Nick Adams walks by a mirror, stops and smiles at his reflection. It mentions that the reflection isn't him. Hemingway uses a mirror without any deep reflection about what a character looks like, simply a terse statement about what we are not what we see.
Frankenstein's monster used water to see himself as did Narcissus, but the latter did not understand that it was own reflection. Famously the movie Citizen Kane used the infinity mirror scene at the end, with Kane barely looking into. Or even in video games, at the chopper in MGSV there is a dull reflection of someone else in the glass, but this subtlety is kind of ruined at the end since Kojima can't help himself.
Mirrors and reflective surfaces are still great in stories but I think it's just a matter of how you present it. If it feels way too mundane or played out, it may feel weak.

>Start publishing on Vella
>spend $20 on ads
>literally no reads
>join the readers and writers Vella group
>only way to get readers is to trade likes and episode unlocks with other authors apparently
>Finally getting some likes so maybe my story will get in front of real people
>All the reads for reads except one so far have been terrible
>Dont have enough of a following yet to convince my own audience to go over to Vella
When I publish volume 1 normally maybe I can get some organic eyes over to the Vella portion for extra income but fucking hell bros

>>20641849
I'm not suggesting you go full meerkat or to schizopost but at the very least it's gonna take a little time to build your audience, just a little every day. You may have to spend more time around your audience so they see you writing about common interests. Or have a way that they stumble upon your name or book title (without mentioning it is the title of a book) in a forum in the comments. The more indirect the better.

>>20641827
Still not exactly what I am asking, but that was very informative on reflective surfaces, I feel that would make a good video essay on YouTube if you ever watch things like that. Gives me good ideas for a different story I am thinking of doing.

But do you think describing the character is always nessecary? Perhaps waiting until a character makes a brief comment on her appearance later into the story? I get that appearance is supposed to help draw the reader closer to the character, but I am not sure why that is something we want in a story, especially since the story is more monologue and introspection focused.

>>20641849
You won't like this answer if your focus is notoriety or money but don't care about how many people read it. Just focus on making it the best it can be, it wasn't until recently that stoner was refound and turned into a classic.

>>20641886
It depends on the writer's style, not necessary. Some authors are very visual and some aren't. Mirrors are a cheap way to observe everything together. If you want to give a stronger impression I'd introduce characters more in context in whatever impression you feel is salient. If you want us to understand a character is shy, have their first shot show them hesitating, such as at the threshold of a door. If someone's height is important, show something happening because they are tall (reaching something no one else can, stooping over as they enter a door).
Chekhov once described the features of a woman all looking sharp and it gave her this unfriendly impression. He also described breasts as being so big you could set a samovar on them to make tea, which I thought really got the point across without the typical "her breasts were like big fruit" or "her breasts moved around" like Wolfe, Mishima and many others tend to do. I have thought about having a buxom character accidentally knock something over with her breasts and that being the only time I ever allude to their size. You can explain all of these things by showing people instead of directly telling. You don't need to be the weatherman to say it's hot outside, if that makes sense.

>>20641867
I have a normal ebook on Amazon that has done much better, I definitely need more of those up which is my plan for the story on Vella once the last chapter of volume 1 is 30 days old Vella which is fine since my artist needs time for the extra illustrations/alt cover to be included in the ebook form
Slow climb...but I'll make it over eventually
No way to do that with the title I'm afraid...but you remind me that I need to not be as svhizo with socializing as an author
>>20641893
Focus is only on money because I do love writing and want to quit my day job eventually but it isn't my sole goal
I'm certainly proud of what I'm creating and there is satisfaction from that

>>20641886
https://youtu.be/vL0q15Kkews
Maybe this will help?

>get into writing hobby
>Thinking about cool stories about the human condition and life
>Go deeper
>Realize writers are a bunch of perverts that want thier fetishes aired out to the world
>Readers are also a bunch of perverts that just want to read smut
Oh...

>>20641077
>It’s not uncommon for someone to have a mirror in their room
Get on my level, I put mirrors everywhere using every surface. Pool of water? bam, mirror. Stainless steel? That's another mirror. Window glass, a wristwatch's face, any surface shined to a mirror finish? Mirror, mirror, mirror. I'll even cheat a little bit and use camcorders connected to giant tvs to act as a pseudo mirror.

You may not think it's worth it always including these mirrors everywhere, you may say it drags down description or becomes tiresome descibing all these reflective surfaces over and over every scene. You may say let the characters actions speak for themselves. Well, I ask you, if your characters can't see themselves how can anyone else? Checkmate pseuds.

Does anyone else set out to write a story, maybe finish an outline, get a few pages, maybe a few chapters in, and stop and think “this is cringe” then lost motivation and stop?

>>20642079
Just mix the cool stories into your smut. That's what I'm doing.

>>20642163
all fiction is cringe desu just accept it

>>20642079
>Realize writers are a bunch of perverts that want thier fetishes aired out to the world

Yeah that shit annoys me, but I only start to hate them when they ask for critique then throw an autistic fit when people call their writing shit. They actually just wanted people to discuss their gross owlbear fetish and don't give a shit about writing.
It's pathetic.

>>20642083
Fucking brilliant.

>>20642170
There is none based, no, not one.
They are cringe, they have done embarassing works, there is none that doeth debasement.

>>20642170
Anyone who reads and enjoys reading can see that’s clearly not true.

>>20642163
it's common to have doubts about your work
a lot of people hate their rough drafts, but a rough draft doesn't represent the finished work
i guess the test is in the end, if anyone will buy it and read it
i would finish it for practice if nothing else

>>20642247
just try to not suspend disbelief next time you read and you'll see how cringe it is. you are reading made up words about a made up person. think about it logically.

>>20642163
No, but only because I'm so narcissistic that everything I do looks great to me.

>>20641849
What the FUCK is Vella

>gril character im writing is too literally me
i can't show this to anyone ffs it's too personal

>>20642297
It’s not really the prose so much as the plot

>>20642471
most people make changes to the plot after they have a rough draft

>>20642454
Every character is you. Every story I write someone thinks I'm self inserting

>>20640822
I like first person more.

>>20642474
True. Maybe I just need to keep working at it. I just feel like I’m writing stories I don’t want to write. Problem is, I don’t actually know what sort of stories I do want. I am too self-critical.

>>20642498
>be me
>write stories no one wants to self insert into because all the characters die horribly
>be you
>losing
This is how Shakespeare did it. stop anime writing.

>>20642617
>Thinking Shakespeare didn't self insert as Hamlet or Iago and enjoyed watching the Uncle or Othello cuck him.

>>20642454
Tolstoy took his entire personality and put facets of it into every character in Anna Karenina.

>>20642655
t. oedipal complex coombrain

>>20642655
>t. Stephen Daedalus

>>20640673
I listened to half the audiobook, it's pretty cool tbqh but since I'm not good at critiquing i will just say it was pleasant to listen to.

>>20642307
Came here to say this.
High five!

>>20642440
Vella is Amazon's web-novel variant, e.g. RoyalRoad, WattPad, etc.

"Romance" is a popular literary genre, especially among women.
The plots mostly seem to revolve around a blank-slate girl getting courted by two hot guys that are way out of her league.
Isn't that just female-incel wish-fulfillment?
And if so...isn't that serious ultra mega cringe?

>>20642930
No because it makes money.

>>20642930
incels may read it, but i think the main market is housewives

I'm finally liking what I'm writing bros.

We're gonna make it.

I just found this book, downloaded it and checked certain pages that interested me from the table content. it's really good. I hope it gets added to the OP
>>20640400
very cool

How do I add poems and history bits into the novel? at the start of each chapter? or can i do it in the middle of chapters or "encounters" ?

>>20640673
I saw this on twatter. What the fuck was I reading? Is it supposed to be fantasy?

>>20643108
From what I understood, it's supposed to be mythical.

>>20643100
Block texts

>>20642930
Yes, it is cringe. Self respecting non-loser women won't be caught reading that trash. The implication is we can get men IRL so we don't need those stories. Only ugly women read them. But 90% of women are ugly, so they are popular. Also, just like male incels, femcels are not self aware of how cringe they are.
>>20642983
Don't marry ugly men and you won't need wish fulfillment stories.

>>20643148
>90% of women are ugly
>which also implies 90% of men are ugly, as well
I don't disagree, which means most people didn't roll a natural 20 when they were born. drugs, alcohol and wish fulfillment stories fill the gap for 90% of the population

What's the opposite of purple prose?

>>20643288
Can you not Google?

>>20643148
>90% of women are ugly
Most women that are ugly are ugly because they dont spend enough money grooming. Some hoodrat looking people look like models after a makeover.

>>20643315
It just comes up with purple prose.

>>20634479
do niggers look at this photo in disgust that same way that I would look at an equal number of niggers in disgust?

...but actually, I would only be disgusted if say group of niggers was outside of sub-Saharan Africa.

>>20643288
well the opposite of purple is yellow and the opposite of prose is uh.. unprose??

>>20643288
Gardner calls it "mannered" writing which covers both purple prose and whatever the opposite of purple prose might be.
>Mannered writing is writing that continually distracts us from the fictional dream by stylistic tics that we cannot help associating, as we read, with the author's wish to intrude himself, prove himself different from all other authors.

>>20643395
If that nigger, Gardner said it, you can bet money on it.

>>20643437
john gardner

>>20641886
It's all up to you, anon. There are certainly no shortage of classic works that don't do anything to describe the protagonist.

>>20643395
>>20643459
>someone other than me referencing John Gardner
boner achieved

>>20643559
I read the art of fiction because it was in the op at some point

>>20643564
On Becoming a Novelist is great, too. I'm no writer, but have read those because I'm so gay for Gardner.

>>20643559
>>20643459
>Frank has become so prolific he is now a reference

>>20643600
No, he's just a trans NEET with rich parents that has spammed his way into having no credibility whatsoever.

>>20643288
Workmanlike? Concise? Practical? Sparing?

>>20643366
>do niggers
Does anyone care what they would think?

>>20643338
No, most ugly women are landwhales.

>>20643706
That's not Gardner

>>20643723

>>20640400
I enjoyed it. Got anything else?

>>20643734
It is if I can meme that into existence.
Live by the spam, die by the spam.

I am writing a story where a detective gets an arrest warrant for a brothel. Anywhere I can learn about the laws and procedures to make sure I get it right?

>>20643757
fuck off

>>20643744
This kills the leftist

>>20643763
He's right though. If Frank wants to continue to spam his shit novels here, he can't whine when he gets spammed back and smeared completely.

New thread >>20643840
for when the time comes...

While walkin' in his fields..
Sought to plant the first seed
Desired to give Man the name
Sneed.
And when the last man falls
and the magic all halts
The fields become barren
The world is indeed dying
Then Chuck just laughs again
This time there won't be a seed
It's just
Sneed.
Thus the last became the first.
Titled "The First and the Last"

>>20643763
That wasn't a very creative response.
Are you sure you belong in a writer's thread?

>>20637190
Nai memory is like 2k compared to others and if you use lorebooks its even better. It pulls out earlier context I've long forgotten about here and there and surprises me all the time