/lit/ - Literature

>>20629794
lol I have yet to read it because just getting through the boring ass family details was enough to filter me on the first try. Christ has risen and Irish Roman Catholicism is the only belief system to ever be truly aligned with the metaphysical reality

You mean believing in Christianity at all.

>>20629794
Imagine reading books

>>20629810
Catholicism is chucked no wonder it’s America’s faith of choice

I still don't get what he means by believing in god's existence but wanting to check out from his world. Why believe in a god at all if you believe he's this cruel when it's more likely that the world just simply is and bad things happen only as a construct of our minds

both ivan and the grand inquisitor are strawmen so weak that people only take them seriously because dostoevsky is a sacred cow.

>>20629794
While it’s true that Dostoevsky was hostile to Rome, I don’t think he necessarily meant the Grand Inquisitor to be a polemic against the Roman Church. Remember, the tale is being told by Ivan, and it comes right after Ivan tells Aloysha that he rejects God and His creation because he believes it to be built on a foundation of suffering. The G.I. is like the corollary to this rejection – if you reject the Cross (suffering) what remains but to take up Satan’s 3 temptations and rule people through their stomachs and pleasure and lead them down the broad, easy road to perdition? The Inquisitor is speaking for Ivan. A lot of churchmen in D’s time began to feel this way – probably also in the Orthodox church – but certainly in the Catholic Church too and now, today, they rule the roost. Few ever talk of sin, suffering and redemption, it’s all social justice and good works projects. The Grand Inquisitor perfectly captures the mentality of many modern clergy.

>>20630108
Ivan isn't a strawman, he's clearly based on Fyodor Dostoevsky himself, just like Alexi and Demitri.

>>20629815
filtered

>>20629919
There is sin in our world and it gets worse and worse. If you read The Idiot, it is a clear example of what our world does to beautiful, good people.

>>20629794
Dosto was a degenerate pulp fiction writer who was paid by the word to fuel his insatiable gambling addiction. If you like his work you are the literary equivalent of a soccer mom picking up a harlequin romance novel in the check out line at the local super market.

>>20630486
Ivan is the biggest strawman ever. He keeps saying retarded things like "I'm acting out values I don't believe in!" as if the Russian Orthodox Church has a monopoly on values and any atheist who has a moral compass is secretly a devote believer in Christ... for some reason.

>>20629794
Can we have a Dostoyevsky thread that doesn’t dissolve into an efight right away? He is simply a debate topic now and not discussed. It didn’t use to be that way

>>20630649
This thread was never going to be a calm discussion of D's artistry. I mean, look at the OP throwing the gauntlet down. This thread was always destined to be one for the flames.

>>20630712
I know. It was a general statement regarding the state of /lit/. He used to be a darling with many threads with good insight

>>20630649
>>20630712
>>20630759
Dosto is literally Russian Orthodox fan fiction. It's abysmal writing with manic characters, contrived circumstances, and hamfisted theological constructs all over the place. Unless you are already heavily bought into the worldview it operates from, it's painfully trashy

>>20630777
I love Dostoyevsky and I’m none of those things

>>20630649
Because there's at least a schizo or two who always derail Dosto threads. Same thing can be said about Murakami threads, and i am by no means a Murakami shill, in fact, i'm not so fond of most of his works but there's always a schizo who calls his work YA trash and derails the thread.

>>20630811
Every thread is derailed now. Doesn’t matter what author. Makes you wonder

>>20630821
Indeed, /pol/cels derail threads but i also believe that their bogeymen (lefty/pol/cucks) also turn interesting threads into a political shitflinging cesspool.

>>20630777
>Unless you are already heavily bought into the worldview it operates from, it's painfully trashy
he's less esteemed in russia than in other countries though

i enjoyed the great vibes from all the children chapters. the way the brothers interacted with each other was great. i loved following mitya around as he just walked everywhere and was reckless with all his interactions. ur looking too deep into it.

>>20629901
There are more Protestants in the U.S. than there are Catholics.

>>20629810
fpbp

>>20630108
Ivan made a better case for atheism than any atheist faggot I've ever seen. He's a steel man if anything.

>>20631608
Only Christians think Ivan is a steel man precisely because he is the EXACT atheist they WANT to exist. One who thinks morals have to come from God. They don't, and in fact, people use their own moral code to judge the code from God anyway.

>>20631619
Wasn't that what Neitzsche argued? His main criticism of most philosophers is that they largely got their values from religion, and upon the decline of belief in God we'd have to create new values. In any case, despite saying this Ivan still made a case for atheism. He's saying we should reject God even if we got our values from him. Saying "but people use their own moral code" is shallow, the whole point is where is your moral code grounded. Did you read the book, or are you just mad a Christian author understood atheist arguments better than atheists?

>>20631619
Anon you don't need to be a christian to appreciate the novel, you're just retarded

>>20631634
Religion has, and always will, get it's morals from humans. As humans progress, they develop better tools, including philosophical tools like morality

>>20631634
>your moral code grounded
Saying you have an invisible friend that tells you your code is super duper objective doesn't make it objective. You have to base it on a model of harm and benefit for it to make any reasonable sense at all

>>20631643
Every character in the novel is a manic lunatic with zero nuance to their personality.

>>20631666
This is true of every Dostoevsky character. None of them would be out of place in a crappy American tv show, and I honestly think that's the reason for his enduring popularity in the west. Russian literature is such a fucking joke.

>>20629794
You'll never hear orthodoxy attack protestant, this is how you know both are churches of Satan meant to attack the one true Church.

>>20631673
You have summed up my opinion exactly here

Love Dostoyevsky and I’m not Christian. Arguably the greatest writer and most influential from the 19th century on. I also love how he makes anons with poor taste seethe

>>20631770
If liking ridiculous caricatures who go on poorly reasoned pseudo-philosophical rants is a mark of good taste, then I'm okay with not having it.

>>20631832
Kitchen sink realism blows

>>20631834
Sure, but is that the only alternative to Russian melodrama?

>>20631854
No, but the great characters of literature are always larger than life and somewhat unrealistic. Dostoyevsky uses his characters well to stage some of the greatest scenes in literature, and there are a few of these in each of his big 4. He also uses his characters to explore psychologically better than most writers

>>20629919
This is sophistry.
Among the animals, too, there are many cruel creatures. Murderers, cannibals, pedophiles.
I knew a dog that ate young puppies. We beat him up with boards so much that he became afraid of everyone.
>>20630468
The Vatican is actually a cesspool of abomination. There is such an "Institute of Human Dignity", which sponsors the neo-pagan battalion "Azov" in Ukraine. However, this institution is not directly subordinate to the Pope.
After the rule of the Occitan Borja clan, who really wanted to unite Italy, really dark forces came to power who collaborated with the Guelphs, but whom the Guelphs themselves (the future "Black Vatican aristocracy") made the bogey of Catholicism, although many Popes opposed the policies of the Vatican. The same Pope-Palpatine, the Nazi Joseph Ratzinger, really fought against pedophiles, but the Vatican removed him. Mario Bergoglio is trying to fight against corruption, and the Vatican itself makes him a heretic, and most of the propaganda against Bergoglio is created by Vatican functionaries.
But we are talking about neo-Catholicism, and there is also old-Catholicism.

>>20631880
When a character is pulled this way and that with every thought and feeling it just gets tiresome

>>20629794
Imagine reading this and remaining an atheistfag like OP.

>>20629810
Fpwp

>>20632216
>Imagine reading this and remaining an atheistfag like OP.

imagine reading it and not believing in orthodoxy

Imagine having a brain and still believing in any religion.

>>20632257
>Fedoraism is le heckin based

>Start studying linguistics
>Quickly realize, as a consequence of my newfound technical prowess, that God is equivalent to "the facts of reality, as conceived of as a mind dreaming the figures and forms within in the same fashion that I dream the characters within my own mind
Huh, that was easy.

>>20632812
>Christ is le heckin based

>>20631680
>You'll never hear orthodoxy attack protestant
What? That's just retarded. Catholics and orthos shit on protestants the most, but the sharp critiques are moreso aimed at each other cause both claim to be the one true church. But prots are so retarded to them that they barely care enough to critique them

>>20629794
Imagine believing in any form of Christianity when Ivan btfos all of them.

>>20631680
>You'll never hear orthodoxy attack protestant
This is not true at all, and whenever I have seen it happen the Protestants always get blown the fuck out
t. Catholic

>>20631832
>every piece of literature ever has to be hyper-realism, no fun allowed!

>>20630468
>>20629794
Ivan makes an argument tantamount to ultramontanism early in the books (on the ecclesiastical courts). This is basically a Catholic dream. It is a logical conclusion.

Also, makes sense Dostoyevsky might not dig Catholicism due to the Jesuits that were allowed in by Catherine the Great.

Anyway, Catholicism is the answer.

>>20630108
You’re an idiot. Well done.

>>20629810
fpbp

>>20632216
I said Catholicism not Christianity dumbfuck. I was very specific and somehow not a single anon responded to my statement.

>>20633893
I’m glad you’ve finally recognized the truth, anon. Welcome to the club.

>>20630615
Atheists can't have moral compasses. It's an inherent contradiction. If there is no heaven or hell then there is no right or wrong.

>>20635817
Right and wrong are ultimately derived from the fact that there are states of being that you, yourself, have first hand experience of and can order them in categories of "better" and "worse". Morality comes in when you realize this is the case for other people as well and a system is formed in order to minimize the worse states of being and maximize the best, usually done through a system of individual rights. Religions have always relied on a system of "divine" right and wrong which is often wholly divorced from actual human well being and instead focused on glorifying "God" (an imaginary, symbolic being. An idol, in fact). All this is to say that not only do atheists have a moral compass, it is actually focused on BETTER morals and those of religions.

>>20635817
if you make decisions based on heaven or hell then you are basically a hedonist

>>20635930
>Right and wrong are ultimately derived from the fact that there are states of being that you, yourself, have first hand experience of and can order them in categories of "better" and "worse".

Then why do so many children who get molested grow up to become child molesters themselves?

>>20635939
Every decision you make is hedonistic. Everything everyone does is in the pursuit of happiness. That being said, at least religious people believe in accountability for your sins, atheists believe that there is no moral difference between good and evil, since both people cease to exist when they die.

>>20636059
>Then why do so many children who get molested grow up to become child molesters themselves?
Because we run on psychological circuits that are still in the process of being wired/grown as children and traumatic experiences seriously fuck up that process. That's the whole reason we take abuse of children so seriously in the first place. The real question is, why don't we have more compassion for those kids when they become grown up and have serious, life ruining issues that are a direct result of being victimized as children themselves?

>>20636059
>at least religious people believe in accountability for your sins, atheists believe that there is no moral difference between good and evil, since both people cease to exist when they die.
Wrong. Religious people believe all wrongs get righted after death, so why would you bother pursuing justice in this life? You're wasting your time because it'll be taken care of regardless. Atheists believe that the only justice possible is the justice we create in the here and now, thus we have an obligation to create our own justice, otherwise monsters will, and do, actually get away with their monstrous acts.

>>20636195
Atheists believe life is meaningless and that there is no point in pursuing justice.

>>20636190
>The real question is, why don't we have more compassion for those kids when they become grown up and have serious, life ruining issues
Why doesn’t have compassion for kids who get molested? Pedophiles are probably the most despised group on Earth.

>>20636211
Atheist =/= Nihilist

>>20636216
I mean the molested kids who grow up and have massive drug problems or become pedophiles themselves.

>>20636255
What do atheists believe in? Science? That's just a tool used by the rich to oppress the poor?

>>20629794
Why do some people think you need religion to know right from wrong? It’s almost always common sense

>>20636317
Is it moral to kill someone if they have food and you are starving?

>>20636319
Need more variables than that. Will they not give up food? Do they have a lot of food? What is their character? Where are we? What are the chances of getting food? Why am I starving? Am I just providing for myself? Etc

>>20636314
You realize there are a wide range of atheists, right? Some believe there is a moral code embedded into reality, but it exists without a "God". Some believe there are only morals and values that we specifically create. Most people in general have an innate feeling that relationships, specifically family, are important regardless of other believes or non-beliefs. You strike me as someone who hasn't met very many atheists or even thought about what it would be like for a person to operate outside of your specific belief system. It's good you are asking these questions and starting to think about things from different perspectives.

>>20629794
Imagine taking one good look at the popes face and believing in catholicism.

>>20636328
>Some believe there are only morals and values that we specifically create.

So if I think murder is okay then murder is okay?

>Most people in general have an innate feeling that relationships, specifically family, are important regardless of other believes or non-beliefs.

So people don't matter as long as they aren't in your family? That's probably the mindset many politicians have but it doesn’t sound healthy.

>Some believe there is a moral code embedded into reality, but it exists without a "God".

This is literally just gibberish.

>>20636325
It's a simple question, anon. You are starving. Should you kill people and take their food?

>>20636357
It’s obviously not. At least to me. It is dependent on many things like what I asked above. Would I kill my child if I was starving? No. Would I kill some violent asshole who had a cache of lots of food hidden away and wouldn’t share? Yes. There are many scenarios so don’t play coy

>>20629919
>We are not of this world

>>20636362
Would you kill a violent asshole hoarding food if he had kids who depended on him to survive? I'm not being coy, I'm just pointing out how even simple questions can become incredibly complicated.

>>20636349
>So if I think murder is okay then murder is okay?
This is anti-social behavior which will be condemned by society. Beyond that, any reasonably conversation regarding morals must condemn it also for obvious reasons which I will spell out for you if you admit you are being a child by pretending you don't already know.
So people don't matter as long as they aren't in your family? That's probably the mindset many politicians have but it doesn’t sound healthy.
We are products of evolution, and evolution favors genetic lines which go out of their to aid closely related genetics. This manifests as a universal preference for family. The interesting thing about humans is this preference gets expanded and applied in a more diluted way to society in general due to the synergistic benefits of living in a nation which has certain basic tenants of respect for it's members. Ultimately, this is also something that holds humans back, since we default into an "us vs them" mode in order to feel safe and that we contribute something meaningful. Again, if you wish, we can engage in a conversation of the foundations of morals, as long as you do not continue acting in bad faith
>This is literally just gibberish.
You think there is a cosmic being which bestows certain values (which are basically different according to each and every person, even if they agree there is such a being). Who is spouting gibberish here?

>>20636349
>So if I think murder is okay then murder is okay?
This is anti-social behavior which will be condemned by society. Beyond that, any reasonably conversation regarding morals must condemn it also for obvious reasons which I will spell out for you if you admit you are being a child by pretending you don't already know.
>So people don't matter as long as they aren't in your family? That's probably the mindset many politicians have but it doesn’t sound healthy.
We are products of evolution, and evolution favors genetic lines which go out of their to aid closely related genetics. This manifests as a universal preference for family. The interesting thing about humans is this preference gets expanded and applied in a more diluted way to society in general due to the synergistic benefits of living in a nation which has certain basic tenants of respect for it's members. Ultimately, this is also something that holds humans back, since we default into an "us vs them" mode in order to feel safe and that we contribute something meaningful. Again, if you wish, we can engage in a conversation of the foundations of morals, as long as you do not continue acting in bad faith
>This is literally just gibberish.
You think there is a cosmic being which bestows certain values (which are basically different according to each and every person, even if they agree there is such a being). Who is spouting gibberish here?

>>20636372
Yes and then I’d feed his kids too. We would obviously be living in a brutal world so brutal action is needed to survive if your evil isn’t outweighing your good

>>20636384
How is murder anti-social behavior? Were Hitler and Stalin anti-social people?

>>20636388
What about the next person you murder. If you keep collecting kids the kids of people you kill you'll have dozens of mouths very quickly.

>>20636396
Like I said. It would depend on the scenario and variables. I’d know right from wrong right away

>>20636401
How about you give me an example of when it is okay to murder someone. Not self-defense, actual murder.

>>20631916
You know that won't do fucking anything to make the dog behave? He needs to be corrected within seconds of doing the unwanted action or he won't understand why you are beating him. You just made a bad situation worse. Well done. Stupid cunts love beating dogs, and the rest of your post shows how fucking dumb you are.

>>20629810
>primitive shamanism is the only belief system to ever be truly aligned with the metaphysical reality

fixed for accuracy

>>20629810
Fpwp

>>20637527
Cool it with the anti-Hibernianism.

>IT WAS DA JESOOOOOOITZ

>>20636328
Dosto was right, without God/Godlike figure/an author all moral philosophy is just a giant larpfest, there’s no way to ground any moral belief without transcendant truths actually existing. I don’t know why atheists can’t see this, they always just default to horrible arguments like “it makes me/the majority feel good/be happy!” or “because it just makes sense!” or “it is real because I/people believe in it!”. If there is no god the pomos and perspectivists are right and moralizing is just an expression of arbitrary interests or power

>>20631916
I didn’t know that. I’ve started to think the Vatican itself is controlled by Western powers.

>>20637695
atheists are their own gods

>>20637809
In the hierarchy of super-humans (gods) and humans, it seems atheists tend to fall somewhere below human.

>>20629810
fpbp, Polish roman Catholicism right behind it

>>20637695
You fail to realize that simply asserting you have a magic friend in the sky has zero impact on the validity of your moral claim. The universe itself exists and discovering things about it can inform us as to what is the best moral framework to adopt. You don't get any extra points by a vacuous, empty, and quite frankly, laughable claim that not only is there a transcendent divine being, but YOU have direct access to what it wants you to do. It's literally schizo talk.

>>20637867
Where does Pope Ratzinger fall when he knowingly sheltered pedophile priests from secular justice? And where do all the adherents of the Catholic Church fall who don't even care their church is a literal pedophile protection racket?

>>20636384
>any reasonably conversation regarding morals must condemn it also for obvious reasons which I will spell out for you
please do, dont cop out on us now

>>20630599
Sorry I'm late anon, I was busy at work. Anyway, here you go

(You)

>>20639132
You know the condition, fulfill it and I will

>>20629901
Whenever you see catholic hate in here, 98% of the time it will be an American who hate everyone that isn’t like them (they will even go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend circumcision). Catholicism is inherently anti-American, their religion of choice is the McDonalds version of protestantism.

>>20629794
Already refuted

>>20629794
You understand that the grand inquisitor is supposed to be the good guy, right? The point of the story is that no one can live up to Jesus' teaching, so the grand inquisitor gives us a moral and meaning we can actually live by.
https://youtu.be/MMmSdxZpseY?t=621

>>20635754
Catholicism is Christianity, faggot. You must be a certain type of Prot to think otherwise.

>>20629794
I just liked how life affirming it was, if that's what orthos are about then they ultimately win in the end regardless.