/lit/ - Literature

Some self-pub resources from the /sffg/ thread: >>20616672

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
The slogan 'Press On!' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
-Calvin Coolidge

Book 1, chapter 22, draft 2 revision 3 of A Hero Among Monsters. Just finished this morning.
https://pastebin.com/84CqVX6d

I’ve been working on these books for three years now. I kind of want to take a break. Is that a good idea of should I keep powering through until I at least finish the first draft of the second book?

>>20616948
To fail is only to change the way

>>20616955
Well I guess there’s my answer.
>>20616948

>>20616955
Don't burn yourself out. If you feel you need a break then take one. You'll probably regret it later if you don't and it will be apparent in your writing.

Have any of you ever read an intentionally bad book? Was it successful as comedy or just shit?

Is Fantasy oversaturated?

>>20617040
Good fantasy isn't.

>>20617052
What's good fantasy?

>>20617055
Tolkien, Le Guin, Hobb, Erikson, Bakker. Get your name up there and you're golden.

>>20616933
"wizard of oz"

>>20617063
that's not happening. I don't even think anyone can get to Sanderson's level much less Sarah Mass. Hell getting to level of some random Youtuber like Daniel Greene is a far reach for 99% of the people.

>>20617079
you have to remember that even brando sando's first 13 novels were rejected
jk rowling tried to sell "harry potter" for 6 years before some publisher bought it
i think writing takes more work than talent. painting takes a lot of talent as does music.

>>20617100
If someone like Sanderson can have his first 13 novels rejected, and J.K. Rowling can have her mega-selling series ignored for 6 years, then it seems like the key differentiating quality here...is sheer luck.
You can make yourself "luckier" with hard work and persistence, but it's still likely to have no effect.
So what the heck do we do?
Given the state of things, it's only common sense to have a side hustle, but mine is going nowhere.

>>20617142
>>20617100
My favorite example is Robert M. Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's one of my favorite novels of all time and has maintained a strong cult status for 50 years but it was rejected 120 times.

How's my first paragraph?

>Seduce the Captain, poison his drink, escape. The plan was simple enough, yet this was the fortieth attempt. I took another swig of my mead, gently pressing my butthole as I planned the assassination.
"He's going to want to put it in here again," I thought. "It's not like I don't mind, it but he could be a bit more gentle."
I clenched my buttocks together out of habit or instinct --- I no longer could tell. To my left, a small vial of poison was pocketed inside my pouch wrapped around my waist. To my right, a dagger that immediately would be disarmed the moment I entered the Captain's chamber. It would be a test of endurance. For some reason the Captain enjoyed watching other men molest me before he took his. I never understood it, but it was a small price to pay to get close to him. I pushed my hair back, exposing my neck. My fingers scraped against the bruise I obtained on my latest attempt to take his life. The clothes I wore was perfect for this job, it was easily removable and durable enough it would not tear from the rough grabs and pulls from the soldiers under his command.

>>20617100
I have something I've been wondering about this. You can go to any agency website or bookstore and see hundreds and hundreds of newly published mediocre stale garbage lining the shelves. But a lot of really good literature, or even just saleable stuff, was rejected for years. Doesn't that mean agents are actually really bad at their jobs?

If you look at mswl, what they desire is stuff that tickles their own fancy, and they aren't thinking about readership at large, let alone potential readers. game of thrones was trash but it got people reading who otherwise never picked up a book. now there aren't even any copycats of that kind of thing, it's all just bland chick lit even when it's disguised as something else like fantasy or historical. 99% of the current publishing offerings target the twitter-browsing college educated sjw type to the point the shelves are a monoculture. even the titles and cover art follows the same trend. the [x]'s daughter, the [x] of [y], [x] women, or before this current trend it was the hunger games clones with the YA fantasy trilogy with the plucky, sassy heroine who is some kind of chosen one but still an underdog and a love triangle.

i get that they want to target guaranteed money makers, but it's a problem when that is all that gets published. i say that as someone who actually wants new books to read, not just a salty writer. there is nothing at all getting published that appeals to me. it's all going after the twitter sjw crowd.

so doesn't that mean current agents really fuckign suck at their job? in any other industry they would have been fired a long time ago.

>>20617063
>Bakker
kek fantasy is fucked.
also the same logic applies to literately every sort of literature

>>20617166
>the fortieth attempt

>>20617154
Indeed, a good example.
Another one is "A Confederacy Of Dunces" by John Kennedy Toole.
Every publisher that looked at it basically wanted him to rewrite it into something it wasn't.
He finally became so despondent, he killed himself.
His mother took up the task of getting it published, and succeeded 11 years later.
It immediately won the Pulitzer Prize.
The lesson I take from these examples is that TRADPUBBERS DON'T KNOW SQUAT.

>>20617142
it is a little like trying to be a football star or basketball star.
very few people will succeed at becoming one. most of those who do succeed will be mediocre. a hand full will reach the top of their craft. but even the mediocre players will make money

>>20616933
I'm trying to design a fantasy setting for my stories, but I'm kind of stumped on the matter of the gods, especially since I want them to actually exist in the world rather than just being mythical beings. What should I make sure to keep in mind for this, and are there any mistakes that you see writers making with their gods that one should avoid at all costs?

>>20617211
that's how you spell it

You think there's a U in there? You thought wrong.

>>20617227
So forty times they've had nautical anal sex, fucked up the assassination attempt at the end, and then thought 'ah well, guess i gotta go restart at the nautical anal sex stage again'?

>>20617185
>current agents really fuckign suck at their job?
a good agent will buy books that they think they can sell to a publisher
if publishers don't want horror, that agent isn't likely to buy a horror book no matter how good it is
there's a lot of variables. some agents put a lot of weight on page 1. if page one is bad, they stop reading and reject the book.
but what if the rest of the book is amazing?
what if the agent kept reading past page 1?
so much depends on luck, it seems

So, based on an earlier anon's recommendations, I've read a few books on writing by Chris Fox.
The first was "Plot Gardening", which was a nice overview and retread, but I'm pretty sure I was already doing all that. So either I'm an idiot who lacks self-awareness, or that's not the problem with my writing failing to sell.
I then read "Write To Market", and as willing as I am to write something in a genre I don't normally do, in an effort to make something more sellable...I think I got filtered at the first exercise.
It wanted me to look at the top 20 selling books on Amazon in a particular genre, to look for commonalities.
From what I can tell, that was [1] they were established authors, many releasing a new book in an already popular series, and [2] the writers/characters/etc. were women.
That goes back to >>20617185 said, i.e. most of what comes out today is Twitter SJW monoculture crap.
What the hell am I supposed to do about THAT?
I'm not just trying to whine...I'm GENUINELY trying to learn something here.

>>20617333
You can't do anything about it. Just write.

>>20617166
Seduce the Captain, poison his drink, escape. The plan was simple enough, yet this was the fortieth attempt. I took another swig of my mead, gently pressing my butthole as I planned the assassination.
"He's going to want to put it in here again," I thought. "It's not like I don't mind, but he could be a bit more gentle. It also helps his member is on the smaller side."
I clenched my buttocks together out of habit or instinct --- I no longer could tell. To my left, a small vial of poison was pocketed inside my pouch wrapped around my waist. To my right, a dagger that immediately would be disarmed the moment I entered the Captain's chamber. It would be a test of endurance. For some reason the Captain enjoyed watching other men molest me before he took his. I never understood it, but it was a small price to pay to get close to him. I pushed my hair back, exposing my neck. My fingers scraped against the bruise I obtained on my latest attempt to take his life. The clothes I wore was perfect for this job, it was easily removable and durable enough it would not tear from the rough grabs and pulls from the soldiers under his command.

I groaned thinking about the wonderous party I will soon participate in. My head lowered on the table as I fiddled around my belt making sure I have all the proper equipment necessary to my plot. It was all there. Perfect. Even the cloth of Turbins was neatly packed away. I stood up, as the light pink garment draped over my thighs. It was time to celebrate.

I reached the Captain's Quarters twenty minutes early. I watched as his thick brown mustache rustled as his mouth expanded to accommodate his bellowing laugh. His eyelids covered his dark green eyes that I've stared into so many times. The face of my hatred was only twenty feet away. I forced a curtly smile greeting one of his soldiers.

"Esthar, glad you can join us. The captain is with another girl right now."
"Another girl?" I asked.
"Yea, he decided he wanted two tonight."

Two. How could there ever be two? My blood increased in temperature thinking of this uncertain variable that could derail my plans for death. I never thought of the possibility that the Captain would find another woman. I thought over the circumstances and realized I was being too harsh. This is merely just another whore to entertain his soldiers. Phillip, the Large one always complained they did do all the work and the Captain left them unsatisfied. I scoffed. Besides, I'm the only one the entire regiment knows is able to handle the Captain's fetish. My butt clenched itself again.

"Thank you James. I would like to see Captain Ridley now."
"Right this way."

Captain Ridley saw my face and immediately jumped to his feet. He climbed to the top of his table and gathered the attention of all those around. In his typical roaring voice, he declared for the party to start. Yet, he did not stop. He had one more thing to say.

https://youngadultfrictionblog.wordpress.com/2022/07/01/happy-to-die-today/


feedback pls

>>20617248
Yes it's a woman. She fails constantly because she loves the attention and sex. The assassination only succeeds because the Captain finds another woman to fuck. And in her jilted rage, she finally takes the step to kill him. For she cannot be replaced by a younger hotter girl. She must be the only woman to accept his cock in her ass. It is an insult to her womanhood that the Captain no longer sees her as the object of his desires. Therefore, he must now die after 39 anal fuckings.

>>20617361
>>20617375
go on.

>>20617220
It's not like that at all. We're throwing ourselves into a cruel, stupid system riddled in biases and inefficiencies. Sports are more simple, they're objective. You can measure how fast someone can run, you can count how many times they score in a game. How do you do that for novels? Agents and publishers consistently reject good books that later go on to be winners, and instead push through mediocre turds. Athletes face an objective and logical selection process. Authors throw themselves to the mercy of a cruel and stupid process with a track record of screwing up.

>>20617356
I do...but writing is a lot of work.
The alternative to writing is sitting on my dead ass, watching TV, playing video games, or whatever.
But I wanted to have something to show for my non-day-job time.
Also, given how hideously unstable everything is today, it only makes sense to have a side hustle.
But I need something I'm good at, and other than computer programming (the subject of my day job), writing is the closest I have to a #2.

>>20617333
And the race-baiting. 9/10 books I see getting published have some kind of race baiting or the author is some special flavor of brown. The books seemingly have no other merits. It's just ridiculous that the readers don't get a say, and publishers insist on publishing only this and nothing else. I'm sick of it, including as a reader. For the love of God I want to read something else instead of being struck repeatedly over the head with the same mallet. sjw has got to go. I hope musk guts twitter and reveals that their seeming unity of hyper-sjw focus was always an illusion created by bots and a handful of prolific sj-zealots. Normal people are sick of it.

Imagine you go to the store and the only flavor of ice cream they offer is blue raspberry. For ten years you can't buy anything except blue raspberry. If you want another flavor tough luck, you can go on ebay and see if anyone has a 12-year-old carton of ice cream from before they switched their focus to only producing blue raspberry flavor. And the ice cream producers think they're justified in this because twitter is controlled by blue raspberry enthusiasts who ban anyone who likes a different flavor or even just merely doesn't like blue raspberry and wants more variety. I hope this fever breaks soon, I can't take it much longer.

>>20617040
yes. You're competing against everybody who thinks they can be the next Martin or Rowling. Publishers won't publish something they they think won't turn a profit, and most of fantasy literature's market share belongs to a handful of of multimedia franchises which you didn't write, so even getting published is harder than usual due to the swarm of people who watched the fellowship and said to themselves, "hey, I could have written that."
you could put it online for free and hope someone finds your story in the wall of stories.
you should write fantasy anyway though, as long as that's what really interests you.

>>20617366
Small-town dead-end kids.
Overly depressing, but not bad. Not really my genre, though.
it’s shape -> its shape

>>20617434
If what you're saying is true, then it'll end for the most traditional of reasons...because it doesn't make money.
This is already happening in the movie industry...big-budget woke movies do very poorly, while movies like the Top Gun sequel rake in over a billion.
Are publishers losing money on this Twitter SJW monoculture flood, or not?
And if they ARE losing money on this...how do they stay in business?
Under-the-table grants from the ChiComs to fund their project of destabilizing their strategic adversaries?
Sorry to go all /pol/ here, but it's one of the few realistic explanations I can find.
Seriously, I don't know how any of this is viable. Am I just completely out of touch?

>>20616941
>self-pub resources
>top link is just showing how much StinkyPirateBussy and 10 others make of patreon
Kek self publishing really is just a pyramid scheme. At least trad pub cucks don't delude themselves by constantly posting GRRM and King's income as their goals

I'm not even a "trad pub only" purist but there's something so scummy about self-pub guru shit.

>>20617063
>Bakker
One good book and then writing quality collapsed entirely, I've heard a theory he just had a really good editor for book 1.

>>20617185
>doesn't that mean current agents really fucking suck at their job? in any other industry they would have been fired a long time ago.
Of course it does, but they wouldn't have been fired in any industry - they're just hard-core rule followers just following oligarchy policy.

Have you guys read any of the lit selfpubs? Ogden Nesmer's Eggplant and Zulu Alitspa's Panther Pride were actually very decent.

>>20617396
yes, sports are a lot fairer because management can see if the athlete is worth hiring in a day or so.
when an agent reviews your book to see if they want to take you on, there is so much that can go wrong. you hear about agents receiving 300 books a month. that's a lot of books to go through. maybe they can only mange to read 100 of them.

>>20617517
I've bought/read "Son Of The Sun" and "Salvation On Peril Island". I enjoyed both.

>>20617501
Always follow the money. In my opinion, a lot of these new books being published for tokenism points amounts less to interest in the topic and more for grandstanding about having read the latest and most fashionable book. Pubbers will NEVER purposefully lose money on publication, not even for woke points. The simple fact is they're not losing money on SJW monoculture, so they'll keep selling it until the money stops. It may be crooked from certain culture lenses, but ultimately it's a business.
>>20617333
Next, read The Business of Being a Writer. I've been recommending it to a lot of people and I'm learning a lot of illuminating things myself, especially about publishing.

>>20617517
I've read The Emily Project, and it was pretty good.

>>20608196
The first time I posted my vivid description of a girl shitting beside a tree, I was told that my prose was "insane"
The second time I recieved a very sincere critique next to a bunch of people acting shocked

You know what I like doing?
Subverting the concept of an underdog in a weird sense by showing that there's a really good reason this character who seemingly had no chance won. For example:
>Guy who is pretty durable and shoots fireballs
VS
>Guy who has a powerful energy shield and fires particle beams
Guess who wins. Yeah, it's the first guy, and there's a good couple of reasons for that
>He's durable enough to endure the particle beams.
>He's way more experienced so he actually figures out a good strategy mid-fight
>The other guy isn't used to a prolonged engagement with someone who can survive his attacks, so he has no stamina
>And most importantly of all, the other guy is really fragile. He's entirely reliant on his shield to survive attacks, and once the fireball dude manages to get inside it, he's toast due to the size, strength, and weight difference.
One is a warrior, the other is a bully.
I try to subvert "Plot armor" by showing there's an actual reason these "Underdogs" win without it. Sure, it's an uphill fight, but they do win through logical reasons.

>>20617573
Yeah, I started reading The Business Of Being A Writer, too.
>>20587505 is still my take on it.
I guess I can go back to read it, but I'm not expecting much.

>He had a ready appreciation of art, and probably, with a taste for imitating art, he supposed himself to have the real thing essential for an artist, and after hesitating for some time which style of painting to select—religious, historical, realistic, or genre painting—he set to work to paint. He appreciated all kinds, and could have felt inspired by anyone of them; but he had no conception of the possibility of knowing nothing at all of any school of painting, and of being inspired directly by what is within the soul, without caring whether what is painted will belong to any recognized school. Since he knew nothing of this, and drew his inspiration, not directly from life, but indirectly from life embodied in art, his inspiration came very quickly and easily, and as quickly and easily came his success in painting something very similar to the sort of painting he was trying to imitate.
Remember guys. Don't be soulless like this nigga. Allow yourself to be inspired by life as much as the art that came from it.

I'm going to write a fantasy book about a cute girl going on the hero's journey to defeat the evil ancient evil also known as her Dad.

>>20617659
Does he make dad jokes? If he makes dad jokes, it might work.

>>20617612
Then he's not an underdog.

>>20617663
You THINK he's an underdog, but he's not. That's the point

>>20617659
As much as I want to hate that idea...I don't.
So that's probably a good sign.

Does she know her dad is the Big Bad Evil from the beginning?
Does her dad know she's after him?
Feel free to ignore those questions if they're spoilers.

>>20617662
Yes. She's going to go
"I'm going to spill your guts!"
"It does take guts to be an organ donor!"

AND COMFORTING PARENTAL LINES SUCH AS:

"Dad, you've destroyed my life! I'll never be able to become a hero now!"
"It'll be okay honey. I still love you."

Any updates from HellAnon, or RabbitCacherAnon?
I enjoyed both of their works immensely.

>>20617686
Why would I think a big strong experienced warrior that can shoot fireballs and tank laser beams is an underdog?

>>20617366
I just reread what I typed below and it seems a bit mean, so forgive me. I'm also half reminding myself about the things I'm trying to avoid in my own writing. Anyway.

You've clearly read a fair bit and know what you're going for. But personally I didn't like it. It's like you're trying to create a little VR simulation that will plug people into Sexiest Most Tragically Dissolute Gregory Crewdson Teenage Sadscape. 'Young American Friction' is a nice blog name, but I don't think there's actually any real friction in the story, i.e. the injection of any weirdness or any break in the solipsistic movie. Of course the hot girl is only there for a tragically fleeting relationship: so much the better to allow her to be a collection of enjoyably bittersweet images. Of course the guy feels an aimless yearning: so much the better for him to passively wander through the gallery of disconnected evocative scenes taken from Deindustrialised Heartland Asset Pack Vol. 3.

Imagine if the seamlessness of the VR sim was interrupted and another perspective was introduced, and they started to describe how this moody teenage narrator appeared to them. Then there would be actual friction: the disjunction between this guy's cliched internal monologue and the image that he would present to anyone around him is the classic kind of destabilising complication that realist writing lives off (e.g. Dubliners). But right now the story feels like it's just trying to set up a non-stop coomworld of sad and sexy imagery. It ends at the very point where you hit on the kind of realisation that has the potential for a story: 'As if I was the only person in the world who ever lost something.'

>>20617695
"Dad! Your frosty death spells is causing misery and cold! I'm here to stop you!
"Just stand in the corner, it's always 90 degrees there."

>>20617706
Because the guy he's up against is actually taller, much scarier/abstract, and overall has been depicted as indestructible so far.

>>20617718
You said the fire guy was bigger. I'm sorry, but this "The tough guy is actually a weak bully and the weaker guy is actually tougher and cooler!" thing isn't interesting, it's playground narrative.

>>20617736
I should've probably specified that, huh. I just want to create a realistic way for a hero to beat a villain.

>>20617769
Well, that's fine. Personally I just don't think a conflict so two-dimensional is interestinging.

>>20617799
>interestinging
Personally I think your opinion should be taken with a grain of sand.

>>20617799
The whole point is that this guy isn't so invincible after all when he fights someone who can actually counter his primary tactic in a fight

>>20617803
It's been a long day.

>>20617804
No problem, the point I'm making is: Why should I care whether or not the guy seems invincible? What does this tell us about either character beyond the surface level? What is fire guy really beating beyond a guy that shoots lasers? What is laser guy losing to beyond a smart strong guy, and what does that mean for him? Was I previously supposed to believe fire guy was an underdog? If so what is served by turning that around here?

>>20617828
I don't really have a response to that

>>20617828
I had a water guy just drink water and have the other guy lose from dehydration and exhaustion

A piece of short fiction I wrote:

I'm in a room full of clocks with designs from across all sorts of ages.
The clocks are frozen all on the same time but I hear a ticking somewhere haunting me,
I search through mounds of clocks which are stacked like small mountains but futility I can not find the source of the noise

>>20617799
>interestinging
>>20617803
>grain of sand
Like peas in a pod, you two are.

>>20617659
That could be very fun. If I was going to tackle that (and it's totally the sort of thing I'd write), as a starting point I'd make her a Daddy's Little Villain and the dad a Dark Overlord. I'd make her extremely Genre Savvy, having seen her father kill many a hero who was "destined" to kill him, and make him be a Doting Parent who cracks dad jokes and is absolutely unprepared to deal with the hero being his darling angel and spends most of the story convinced she's just acting out or trying to impress a boy.

Then you could have a lot of fun with her recruiting legit heroes to form her Five-Man Band, and have them all be 100% convinced it's all a trap planned by her dad (but, being heroes, they deal with traps by springing them), and naturally, she's a Hero with an F in Good so there's a lot of "What do you mean we can't torture his family until he talks?" bits.

>>20617517
Zulu Alitspa?
got a link?

>>20617951
Oh, heck, https://www.alitspa.com/ seems to have expired (or is broken).
I downloaded three novels from there some months ago.

>>20617951
>Panther Pride is a gripping exploration of the dangers of extremism and complacency, as told through the story of a group of students who riot during a pep rally and seize control of their school.

PDF
https://www.alitspa.com/_files/ugd/247fb8_d8916eb201064d8c95d764cda0e5c635.pdf

E-PUB
https://2b88a3fe-7eba-421a-93ed-0c66f50e9bab.filesusr.com/ugd/247fb8_949a4ba3021f46fa847918c81218b3a9.epub?dn=Panther%20Pride.epub

Crazy how these threads are exactly the same level after years and years. I swear you're all bots or new.

>>20616933
>For General Writing
Are these books applicable only to English writing or are they just talking about the principles of writing—which are applicable to any language—through an English lens?

>>20618191
Why would someone stay here after they've outgrown it? I think your expectation is the crazy honestly.

>>20617930
*Like pee in a pot.

>>20618272
Yeah probably

i'm sure there's thousands of unsold books that would've made over a million dollars, but the author was too chicken to send it out, or he sent it to the wrong agent and got a rejection and gave up, etc
or maybe no publisher would take a chance on it

>>20618272
I think it's more that people just give up. It's something nuts like 95% of writers never even finish their first draft

>>20617712
>Sexiest Most Tragically Dissolute Gregory Crewdson Teenage Sadscape.
Nice description lol.

Well Im a depressed heartbroken loser and this is my life. Not much fiction, just a small slice of how I am and feel

>>20618387
I'm sure there's plenty of that, but it doesn't weigh on the quality of the threads or anon's expectations for the quality of the threads in quite the same way. If anything the threads are improved by losing that dead weight, at least to the point of balancing themselves out. Othese they would be complaining about how the threads are always getting worse instead of not meaningfully changing in their perceived quality. Threads like these are really only helpful at a certain place in the journey and will continue to be populated mostly by people in that specific place, and that creates a certain static, superficial appearance. People are still growing and outgrowing and people are still giving up, it's just not as outwardly apparent in a nameless, faceless format like this.

I'm writing a series of horror novels that are extremely pulpy. Basically the formula is: sexy babes + average guys + supernatural hijinks.

I'm not sure how much I should reel in the smut element. For instance I have one character who is a guy who wakes up in the body of a maid and is then turned into a sexy woman in a mime outfit + make-up.

It makes sense contextually in the story, but it really is 'the author's barely disguised fetish' but...isn't that half of what the horror genre is anyway?

I'm thinking of promoting the books with sexy pulp style covers with cool sounding titles. I've looked for good horror lit that is pulpy and fun with sexy babes and supernatural elements in it. If anyone knows of any good ones I'd appreciate the rec.

>>20617828
I do a lot of weird shit in the story.
Like depicting getting curbstomped as akin to rape

>>20617517
I've read Eggplant, Emily Project and Dose Makes the Poison. Thinking about the anon flash fiction collections soon.

How do you guys keep track of your characters in your prose when you have multiple male/female characters? For example, I'm writing a short story right now that is from the perspective of two shifting POVs that aren't always obvious, and I'm often writing "He...", "He..." etc. etc. while they talk to and think of each other, so I use their names a lot to differentiate but sometimes it's just hard. Do I just totally ignore it and leave it up to the reader to figure out? I don't mind doing that but is that fair?

>>20618752
at the start of every dialogue section, use their names. after that, you don't have to use their names

"can i have some tea?" asked peggy.
"sure," said marge.
"the weather turned out nice today."
"yes, it did."

>>20618752
If you can't keep track of characters or points of view then you can't expect readers to. If you're having trouble I would suggest you don't use any pronouns in that context in your draft, exclusively use their names or proper nouns. When you go back through it you can edit where it becomes repetitious.

>>20616933
How do you work out how to name things in your stories, be they characters, people, etc.? What resources do you use, and is the link below any good?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM9XJgaQlMw

>>20618865
Just go to baby names and find a name you like.

>>20618646
Awesome. Want to pick up the Emily Project soon. Was going to read Dose Makes the Poison but listened to an interview with the author who sounded extremely pretentious and made me less interested in it. Still good to support your local /lit/ authors i suppose.

>>20619002
>interview with the author who sounded extremely pretentious
Would it really be /lit/ if that weren't the case?

Anyone here got experience with writing romance or any idea about it?

It's a big part of my book but the story I want to tell is hard to express for me

>>20619002
I have hopes for K-anon but I think he's focusing heavily on a project, a play or a novel. There's not much presence but he's still been tweeting a lot, just rarely about writing so I'm a little worried that he's not gonna make it. He has four nice short stories in that book but the rest are just okay I'd say, and not much range in the feeling which I think is common when authors first start with stories.
Besides Alitspa who only came to my attention last week, I thought about reading BEHEAD ALL SATANS and other than that I'm not sure.
I'm still trying to read the classics and even a little bit of contemporary too (starting to read Jesmyn Ward, her voice is similar to Faulkner and I like it so far) but anon fiction will take a special shelf in my library because I think you all have some unique idiosyncratic perspectives that I want to mull over myself. It's the bizarre, unheard voices like from here that I want to use to take a giant step over the current spirit of the age, hopefully to show people how wrong most people are about contemporary life. People are thinking with post-modern brains but that's maladaptive at this point.

>>20618925
What sites do you use for baby names then?

>>20619062
I have brief romantic undertones in some of my scenes but I haven't and probably will not write a full-fledged Romance because I keep wanting to make my characters suffer and relationships to always be dysfunctional. Sometimes it's a range of tender emotion to sexual desire and passion.
I know how people feel about Branderson "Giant Crab" Sandon but honestly he's a nice source to get a knowledge base and then you can learn the rest from authors in that genre, both from reading and seeing essays about how a Romance is composed. So here's some transcripts if you want to read some general info they gave about it.
https://writingexcuses.com/transcripts/2-9/
https://wetranscripts.livejournal.com/119882.html

>>20619163
babynames.com. Jeeze man, you're not going to make it if you can't even do basic research.
https://babynames.com/blogs/names/100-top-popular-baby-names-of-2021/

Look at the trending names. There are some great names for Fantasy writers in the top 10 for boys and girls.

Silas, Theodore, Jasper, Finn, Owen,
Olivia, Hazel, Ezra, Willow, Isla

You can even mix them up. So with Finn go with

Finneodore or Finelas or Fhaz'el

Why does everyone assume you have to be a native speaker of a language in order to write in it?

>>20618925
Those won't be very good names for alien lizard men.

>>20619220
Joseph Conrad is the supreme counterexample to this.

I was wondering earlier today why Beckett wrote so much in French. Does anyone have any theories? I guess I could research it myself. I did a Ctrl+F on his Wikipedia and all it has is: ''Despite being a native English speaker, Beckett wrote in French because—as he himself claimed—it was easier for him thus to write "without style".' I also learnt while I was there that he was active in the French Resistance. Very cool.

There's a section of the Deleuze abecedaire interview on 'style' where he describes great stylists as creating a foreign language within their own language. Not really sure what that means exactly. But the connecting thread between that and the Beckett quote is that maybe a comfortable complacency within one's native language is not just an unnecessary condition for good writing but something to actively overcome.

You guys ever realize you're writing on autopilot and it's all bland, uninteresting text? Like you're just writing words and describing actions? How do I get the emotion back in something? Is it because I'm forcing myself to write right now when I'm not very inspired by the topic?

>>20619220
People that lack experience in the world and haven't seen examples that refute their beliefs. They get enough examples to convince them they are right and then resign themselves. This is also the case, as Plato explained, with misanthropy.
As far as books good, pic related. On a related note: if you want a mighty book, choose a mighty theme.

>>20619220
Because we encounter Indian phone-scammers all day long who think they speak English, but they're not even close.
It's incredibly easy for a native to spot a non-native English speaker.

>>20619287
Who mentioned English?

>>20619259
I don't worry about that so much on the first draft. If you go in public and see people having conversations it all looks mundane but if you were to stare and listen closely there is so much subtext going on. You can recontextualize scenes by drilling down your details later but I would also get a better handle on who your characters are and what matters to them. If you know your characters you may begin to feel their emotions and they will tell you what they want to say.
My very best writing session was because I started obsessively imaging the protagonist's horrible relationship and his hopeless attachment to a new love interest and the pain and betrayal he goes through as he tries convince himself he's not being manipulated. I did have to edit a lot of it out but I felt I got a heightened state of despair, frustration, and outrage. Sometimes a couple powerful scenes, with good subtle build up between them is enough to make a great story. In your rewrites, give the most attention to the intro, the end, and the key passages.

>>20617185
I haven't read it but why is Game of Thrones trash? A lot of people praise it.

>>20619259
I'm not sure this is the exact same problem you're describing, but I also sometimes feel I'm doing nothing but typing up the obligatory filler text for getting characters from plot point A to plot point B, with the obligatory background descriptions.

When that happens I just try to skip it and get straight into something that's actually fulfilling to write. Like if a character has just experienced some big revelation and I feel I ought to describe their feelings and reflections on their long walk home, then if it starts to all feel too much like homework and a forced writing exercise I just cut the scene entirely. 'They went home.' Clearly it's not what the story is about. That said, this solution is based on my personal operating axiom of 'stories are about creating a framework that allows you have fun improvising sentence after sentence', which I realise is not everyone's starting point.

(This ignores what you said about how to get emotion back in something. I can't really answer on that point, because emotional content for me is never pre-planned, mostly because I'm not good at it. I've found it only really works in my stuff if it emerges sort of by surprise in the process of working out the material. But that also makes it feel more real for me, because it's like it's coming from somewhere outside me. I don't feel like I'm standing over my little puppet people and jiggling their strings to make them cry or kiss or whatever.)

>>20617517
Eggplant was the best. I've read Zulu's Savage Green and it was enjoyable like Harassment Architecture

>>20619198
Thanks. What about places and shit? I meant to ask in my original post, but there was a typo and I said "people" by mistake instead.

>>20618646
>Emily Project
Never heard about this one. Details?
Dose makes the poison and the Australian were both OK I guess, nothing spectacular.

>>20619318
Maybe, because...it's the language we're all speaking here?

>>20618865
>>20619163
I want to share my resources with writingbros and broettes but I know you guys will just rape them until they're useless.

Do you write while being drunk?
I'm drunk rn after many rum shots and this comedy is so fucking funny it's unreal

>>20619382
Game of Thrones isn't trash, but it's very overrated as far as fantasy goes. There are plenty of better fantasy authors with far less popularity than GRRM. The writing quality also goes down quite a lot after the first three books

>>20619499
How exactly will we do that? Come on, please share them!

>>20619399
>I've read Zulu's Savage Green and it was enjoyable like Harassment Architecture
I think Mike should read more and develop something more substantial. I did like his prose though. Maybe I missed the point if he had one but HA felt more like a romp hating on modern society and less championing a coherent substitute for the world we have today, intellectual sections ringed hollow to me.
I know it's really hard to do that, I've struggled with it myself trying to imagine the world steering differently than the 200+ year course we've been on. It is hard to imagine, but if he's really trying to say something I think he's saying contemporary civilization ends the way the Bronze Age ended: things just falling apart. I personally don't think it will happen that way, I had anticipated some kind of no-confidence abandonment of institutions and regional parallel economies protected by sanctuary laws and cities run by the other economy protected by separate laws.

>>20619220
You don't, but most people aren't even proficient at their native language, let alone a second one. Nabokov is a great example of someone who was a master at english despite it not being his native language

>>20619528
Pistol whipping with a polymer extended mag was cringe. Much of it was entertaining though.

>>20619504
It won't be as funny once you sober up.
We've all been down that path.

>>20619422

>>20618752
I sometimes use abstraction where I show what characters feel by their behavior or what the narrative focuses on. It is easy to get into a cycle of He did this She did that. Trying to start more sentences with ideas, events, places, objects let me have fullness while painting a feeling. Sometimes I add tags but if there are really distinct voices I might drop them at certain parts. "He said" is so conventional that it is practically invisible so I don't feel bad about using it.

>>20619504
I can't get drunk because it makes me physically ill. But I love reading and watching comedy.

Are writing forums any good? Is it better to write something and wait for comments or is being part of a writing community beneficial?

>>20619504
If I have a drink too fast I am guaranteed to become to wallow in self-pity. I haven't written under the influence yet, I don't think I want to develop a habit.

>>20619684
Feel like I've already seen the movie.

>>20619790
some people form writing groups of 3-6 like-minded people
they critique each other's stuff and offer suggestions and ideas

>>20619821
Stephen King made a big point about not doing that in On Writing. He talks about how it nearly killed him, and claimed the lives of some writers he knew.

>>20619499
Don't bluebell me bro, I will appreciate whatever you share.

>>20619828
It's a good move but a big risk you'll be pulling the weight for low effort no-talents in my experience.

>>20619684
>andriod
>formating

>>20619857
i do shrooms sometimes while writing and its fine, gets the brain flowing without getting physical or mental dependence. Mind u i do a mild dose just slightly above microdose

>>20616933
How might you limit a kind of magic that is tied to a specific language in a story that you’re writing? Knowledge of the language is a pretty obvious one, as is the energy required to perform the desired effect, but what else can we do? Maybe you have to have to be able to sufficiently describe the process for achieving the effect that you are trying to get, otherwise it doesn’t work properly?

>>20619931
you have to write the spell down on an expensive item and that item is destroyed when you use it

>>20619931
Maybe it only works if it's recited from memory, and the spells are all really long. I'm basically thinking about how the prestige and skill of someone like a Homeric bard came from them being able to relate these metrically intricate and extremely long epics without the need of a text in front of them.

>>20619931
I once thought up a system for magic based around the idea that all language is magic. To name something is to call it into being. Speaking it drained away this power, to the point where common speech only has enough energy to conjure the idea it's tied to instead of a full manifestation. Wizards needed to discover the languages of long dead prehistoric races and carefully guard the words of power they learned so no one else could tap into their limited uses.

>>20618387
95% never finish
95% of those who finish are barely-literate lunatics
95% of those rare few who are literate and able to finish a ms don't have anything worth saying
95% of those who are literate, have a complete ms, and have something to say have written something unpublishable (like a 400k word anime-written inside-joke harem)

Something like 2/3 of normalfags don't even read books.

>>20619382
Normalfags praise it because it kills off a lot of characters and has a lot of sex scenes. The fact is it's mediocre genrefiction trash. Read more books and get better taste.

>>20619985
That's so cool dude. You should definitely write that

>>20619985
This is basically the problem of modernism translated into a magic system. The more that language becomes part of mass culture, the less aesthetic energy it has. And so you end up with like T. S. Eliot quoting ancient Sanskrit mantras to end his poems:
>These fragments I have shored against my ruins >Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo’s mad againe.
>Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.
>Shantih shantih shantih

>>20619931
You can borrow all sorts of cues from RPGs like Pathfinder, or Dungeons & Dragons.
Spells are limited in power until the spellcaster grows in experience.
Sometimes expensive material components are needed.
You can look up all the rules yourself.

>>20619527
Extremely long and autistic story made slightly shorter, there really aren't a lot of names out there that are both relatively novel and aesthetically pleasing. You know this on some level or you wouldn't be asking. As a species we've been exploiting names longer than almost every natural resource. Someday, somebody will ruin it all. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want be any more specific than that because I'm honestly wary of inciting it by saying as much as I have. But until that day comes, there's still a sort of magic to a name you've never heard or read. It might very well be the oldest form of magic, maybe even art. Like anything that's been called magic, it's really just mundane knowledge obscured by the forced perspective of the observer. So if I tell you how a magic trick works, if I change your perspective and show you what's behind the curtain, it's not really magic for you anymore, is it? Then it's just a trick. And if I tell the whole fucking Internet? Then at some point there is no magic and I'm not a magician. I like being a magician. That sounds selfish and douchey, I'm sure, but not any more so than what you're asking for.

>>20619977
>>20619984
>>20619985
Those are all interesting ideas, thanks. What other suggestions do you have?

>>20620099
Dungeons and Dragons is cringe, but thanks for trying to help. If you think of anything else please let me know.

>>20617361
Is this no good?

It's so annoying that american agents don't accept attachments when british ones do. Copy+pasting in the email body fucks the formatting.

>>20617695
For Christ's sake are you still on about this? I don't hate my dad, I've always had a very good relationship with him, I was just venting. You are 30 years old. Don't you have a family of your own to take care of?

been up all night not sure when l'm going to bed

I should've probably asked here but since I already made the thread might as well just post it, how do you lads approach these topics in your writing?
>>20620398

>>20617828
He’s toppling the despair the laser dude bought, and the laser dude loses his ability to scare people as much because they now know he can be defeated

>go on a discord writing server
>HURR I HAVE ADHD
>I struggle with writing this scene because i never experienced it
>Is this too triggering?
>Writing is so difficult!
>Should I take drugs when I write?
>how do i get motivation?

Holy fuck. Just use your imagination and will power. Do people need things done for them during a basic draft?

>>20620612
Most people who want to be "writers" don't want to write, they want to have a book written and then get the fame, the praise and to live the "literary lifestyle" (i.e. not working an actual job because they are too brilliant for drudgery) so yes, they need things done for them.
None of those people will ever make it.

Day 21 editing
Previous writing took a sudden leap in quality
Surely this precedent will continue!
>WAGMI

>>20619985
>that's basically Le Guin's Earthsea magic system.
Not saying its bad, just not original.

>my book is supposed to take place from ~late october to the first sign of spring
>the first day of my book lasts 35,000 words
I'm fucked.

>>20617100
>even brando sando's first 13 novels were rejected
This is because they are trash. Brendan Spandersneed can't write. He has precisely no talent with language and precisely zero artistry.

>>20620625
Writing takes effort for a lot of people. For me, it feels good precisely because it takes a lot of effort and focus. If it weren't a difficult task, my psychology is such that I probably wouldn't feel very invested in it. It wouldn't feel rewarding. That said, I'm not bashful. One of my primary motivations, especially after seeing mediocre schlock like Eggplant garner praise, is to blow all of you out of the water. It gets me going every day, even when the passion isn't there for that particular session—that burning desire-bordering-compulsion to be better than you are. Whatever you can leverage to get into the zone is fair game.

>>20620882
Love the resolve. Keep at it, anon.

>>20618531
Take a look at the Bizarro genre, especially the works of Carlton Mellick III. Most bizarro fits in a venn diagram of horror (especially the splatterpunk subgenre), fantasy, sci-fi and porn.

>>20620876
And yet he's a successful author and we're not. Curious!

My MC is trying not to think about sex. He's distracting himself by thinking of baseball and ...

My brain is refusing to fill in the blank. What's something that starts with a b that isn't sexy?

>>20621071
>alliteration
stop

>>20621071
Baseball and Bon Jovi.

>>20621104
NEVER. You have no idea how hard it is for me to NOT apply alliterative appellations to all my antagonists. The only person in the world who adores alliteration as abundantly as I is Stan Lee, and he's dearly departed, dead as a doornail.

>>20621105
Eh...he's a zoomer. Would a zoomer even know what a Bon Jovi is? All I know about zoomer tastes is from the reaction videos they make, which give me the impression they all live in a cultureless void and haven't heard of anything that didn't air on Netflix last week.

>>20621130
>NEVER
coincidentally the last time anyone gave a shit about your writing

>>20621144
Sange?

>>20621146
yes hello good morning sir

>>20621154
I recognized you from the douchebaggery.

>>20620882
>mediocre schlock like Eggplant garner praise
What?

>there was an impending doom waiting for him
is the waiting for redundant since impending already implies it?

>>20621343
>his impending doom loomed.

>>20620533
>A writer needs three things, experience, observation, and imagination, any two of which, at times any one of which, can supply the lack of the others. - William Faulkner
From observation, this author heard lots of stories told about the Civil War and WWI so he was able to write about them without the experience. They were compelling anyhow almost moreso because they focused less on combat. It's believed Faulkner never even made saw combat though he tried to join the Air Force in Toronto. He was good at making things up.
Experience certainly can help to write a story but never let it hold you back. Even if you haven't felt exactly misery, you may have felt something like it, observed it or could imagine it with enough empathy. Read about stories relating misery, utilize a few techniques to express it on the page and you're going to get it. I'd also recommend against method acting more dangerous things, if you're going to do that it's better to imagine your situation and character, you don't have to live it. Say you're in a house and tell yourself "this isn't my house" or be in a car feeling the full weight of having been displaced. You might even want to talk to people and here their stories, lots of people never get to share them.

>>20621396
Authentic writing is not found in experience but in empathy. Faulkner knew suffering. It's a very short trip from one variety of suffering to another as long as you know the route in sufficient detail. Once you find out your specific route from one color of experience to another—once you can imagine and transpose and rotate the experiences, bringing them into and out of focus beneath a microscope, manipulating the colors and smells and, most importantly, the feeling—then you can do it for pretty much anything.

Coetzee said that a great writer must first be a great man. I agree wholeheartedly. He has to have had great experiences, felt great things. Maybe that's war for some, love for others. Invariably it must be both success and failure. Someone who's only failed can never write successfully, same as life's winners (the Beautiful Ones) can never write anything except in narcissistic self-aggrandizement. It's just the way it works.

As human beings, the only thing we can experience is ourselves from our own point of view. It's not possible to render anything but a fantastical version of ourselves in loosely parallelized circumstances. In order to have as much of "ourselves" from which we can draw to place the fantastical self in as wide a set of circumstances as possible, writers must cultivate both empathy and a breadth of experiences. Otherwise you'll just end up, best case scenario, another college professor writing horrifically dull gnostic fictions about college professors who are into gnostic fiction.

>>20616933
Any writer lolcows exist? Any novels on lolcows?

>>20620948
Legit saw this stuff in a book store in Australia. It was wild.

>ARE THERE ANY INTERNET CELEBRITIES FOR ME TO POST FOR UPDOOTS ON LEMONORCHARDS.com????
Fuck off, zoomer.

>>20621453
Okay, you’re one of them. What’s your novel? I bet it’s hilarious.

>>20620948
Thanks this helps. I wouldn't be that crass with 'the haunted vagina' because fuck that. But seeing someone doing it does help.

>Okay, you’re one of them. What’s your novel? I bet it’s hilarious.

>>20621467
Do you even have a novel or do you just come here to hang out and try to git gud via osmosis? I bet it’s some progression fantasy LitRPG. I’m lmaoing m7

>>20621343
It might sound better if you find a way to end it with "impending doom" instead of "for him" which I think is interesting but not as interesting as doom.
>These flowers upon the table, and milk for him
>Who, recurring in this body, bears you home
>Magnificent pardon, and dread, impending crime.
Here James Dickey ends his line with "impending crime." Feel free to compose your sentence however you want but good prose often leaves the best words for last, and that is especially true for poetry.

>>20621416
A solid post, could not have said it better myself.

>>20621416
>Otherwise you'll just end up, best case scenario, another college professor writing horrifically dull gnostic fictions about college professors who are into gnostic fiction.
Is that a reference to Bloom? You need to read around more if you think that’s academic writing/fiction. Many boring people and depressed losers have written great stuff as well, including Houellebecq.

>>20621500
Cheers. Also:
>>20621416
>Coetzee said that a great writer must first be a great man ... He has to have had great experiences, felt great things.
It's pretty important that Coetzee most likely meant "great" in more a classical sense than in the contemporary use of the word. He must be a great man, not in the sense that he must be good or higher quality than another, but in the sense that his experiences have a larger scope. It's the kind of "agnostic" greatness that runs a line through sinners and saints alike in that it refers primarily to the magnitude of the acts and experiences, and to the vivid depth of being present for them. Martin Luther King and Ted Bundy, in this manner of approaching greatness, were both great men. They had important, intense experiences which colored their lives and which are the stuff of the greatness Coetzee was referencing. That is, at least, my own headcanon.

>>20621515
Speaking of gnostics I was trying to figure out some concept I was discussing with someone about apotheosis via a collective conscience and one day I stumbled upon the word "egregore" which perfectly described what I was doing in a story, so much so that I refuse to use the word. While I like to make it not totally clear what I personally believe, for some reason I don't want people to mistake this for "oh it's just gnosticism, anon is a gnostic." Maybe it's an unwarranted fear.

>>20621515
The Bloom thing was a joke, and not really intended to hold up to a lot of scrutiny. You missed my point elaborating on my idea of "greatness" with respect to writers, and of which I gave a slightly more specific clarification above, and with some (exaggerated) examples. I think my definition is coherent with "losers" writing excellent fiction. And society has historically done a pretty poor job of allocating resources anyway, so being depressed or a "loser" by its standards is immaterial, in my opinion. Brandon Sanderson is a "winner," as is that tart who made a quadrillion shekels selling 50 Shades. Being a winner seems, more than anything else, to point to a paucity of authorial greatness.

>>20621540
I try not to make obvious allusions to Gnostic belief myself but I have written about Yaldabaoth in particular because it felt right for the story. I was actually complimented for the story in a rejection letter but I’m not sure if it was a form rejection. Just write what feels right FOR YOU, don’t try to feel forced into anything—if you did something you were uncomfortable with, it will likely come off that way. You can have the hidden meaning or subtext not explicitly flagged by specialised terminology, so I agree you are doing the proper thing. Lots of readers don’t want things to be named and exposed outright anyway.

>>20621462
Mellick loves in-your-face and weird titles. His most infamous is "The Baby Jesus Buttplug," but my favorite is "Everytime We Meet At The Dairy Queen Your Whole Fucking Face Explodes."

>>20621564
What I'm going for is something like he's doing. Minus the edge and in-your-face vulgarity. Some of the titles he has look appealing, but yeah a lot of his books look like genuine mental illness.

I love weird concepts for stories, but there is a line where if the story is too weird it loses all value because the stakes have no realistic basis. But yeah Knocking up Satan's Daughter is one of his books that I'm going to give a read.

>>20621161
nah you're just a paranoid schizotype

Does anyone here make money with their writing? If so how much do you make?

>>20621556
So your previous definition said they need to both win and lose, even to extreme degrees or ends. Following up, you said you can have lots of great losers who do nothing but lose anyway—presumably because of society’s lack of resource management (maybe you’re describing the lack of good patronage, which isn’t true anyway if we look at Ulysses, The Faerie Queene, Blood Meridian, and more). This amounts to a pretty vague definition of greatness to the point of describing nothing, and it applies to whoever you see fit to conform to your argument. You just mean people have a capacity for making art from experience for the wider community, which isn’t even very far from a Kantian genius, so it’s not very novel anyway.

>>20621564
All my tentative titles are named after lines of poetry or scripture, besides the short stories which I tentatively named after the main idea. Hopefully some of them are good enough to stick because I kind of like the names now.

>>20621585
>which isn’t even very far from a Kantian genius
Maybe. Either way, what I'm trying to say is more than what you've taken from it, even if I'm having trouble precisely putting the words to the concept. I know intuitively that what I mean exceeds the reduction, but this kind of point-by-point discussion probably isn't the best way for me to clarify.

>>20621610
I'm a graduate of the Kilgore Trout School of Titles. Some of my titles:
>Vengeance of the Necromancer
>Prisoner of the Planet Eaters
>Summercamp Slaughterama
>Slave Girls On A Death Moon
>Planet of the Ultravixens
If it doesn't sound like an exploitation film title to me, I'm never happy with it.

>>20621648
I like it. Check out The Ramrodder (Manson family member porn) or Boss Nigger.

>>20616955
I always have multiple projects going at once. If I hit a wall with one I'll switch over to another so I don't spent days only eeking out a few terrible paragraphs.
As for taking breaks - if you mean like take a weekend off, sure. If you mean take a month off, no.

>>20617142
Or, grind hard as a self publisher.

>>20617361
>gently pressing my butthole as I planned the assassination.
Done.

>>20617366
>Virginia Slim
Did anyone ever actually smoke these?
>‘Oh Kenneth, I could have you all day.’ And she did.
Don't know why, but I hate this.
Next three paragraphs were pretty good, but I disliked the prior dialog enough that if I was reading this in the first page of a book I probably would have put it back on the shelf before getting this far.
>North carolina
Maybe that explains the virginia slims, not familiar with the area.

And I kind of skimmed the rest, its not really my cup of tea so I might not give great feedback either way but I do think the early dialog needs some work. It fell pretty flat for me.

>>20618272
I come back every few years or so to wade around in the swamp a little and talk shit. Not sure why, I think I get something positive out of it though.

>>20618752
When its unclear who he or she is then use their names. If there is too much he/she or johnny did this johnny did that then try rewording things to avoid identifying the character all together while still having it be clear. Be liberal with the enter key, sometimes starting a new paragraph for each character's actions is acceptable even if it was just a single sentence (sometimes)

>>20619163
>>20619198
>babynames.com. Jeeze man, you're not going to make it if you can't even do basic research.
lol

>>20621154
Stop tossing around my good name.

>>20621416

>>20621754
dude stfu

>>20618752
Oh yeah, but most importantly pay attention to the format of your sentences, do they all kind of read at the same speed and express ideas in the same manor? There needs to be fluidity. A fast sentence, a slow sentence, a metaphor, a sound, a straightforward description, a reaction from a character. Make sure you are playing with different methods of getting things across.

>>20621754
>reddit spacing, reddit spacing everywhere
Go back!

>>20621774
I will never stop.
Bitch.

>>20621787
And I'm sure the wastebins of agents and publishers will never overcome their disappointment.

Work 40 hours a week in an office job.

1hr 10 mins average commute (2 buses).
- Write with pen and paper on the way to work. Maybe get about 20 mins of writing in. Two pages on a good day. Half a page on a bad one.

1 hour lunch break use to redraft chapters with laptop in local cafe. Probably get 40 mins of editing time.

Maybe fit in 10 mins or so of pen and paper writing on the journey home. Brain is fried from long day so not up to much. Following morning before work if I have time I type up what I wrote the previous day.

Saturday = write all day.
Sunday = write all day.

Just sharing cos I'm bored.

>>20621812
>agents and publishers
Since you brought it up, and it was being talked about earlier in the thread, my thoughts is that it is indeed a crap shoot. luck playing a huge factor.
Remove the luck factor, be your own agent, be your own publisher. If you do not succeed then you have only yourself to blame. Either you were not a good enough business man or not a good enough writer, or some combination of the both.

Bitches.

>>20621822
not your blog fag

>it's the bargain-bin "haha i am... LE TRIPFAG!!!" episode again, where the tripfag tries to establish himself by making absolute sure you know he doesn't like you or care about your opinion... while simultaneously taking a name by which you identify the person, and which composes the only possible way anyone could even form an opinion on the Epic Tripfag
I swear, I've seen this so many fucking times. Some eager beaver retard playing the same games for the same egotistical reasons. It's trite and boring.

>>20621822
>Writing every day
This bitch doing shit correctly.

>>20621822
Gonna share mine as well. Also work 40-45 hours a week in an office job.

10 minute commute via car, arrive 7:30 on a regular morning, 6:30 on a long day

30 minutes in the morning at my desk spent pleasure reading

Work through lunch, sometimes read, mostly bullshit on Wikipedia

3 hours after work, take care of the body. Gym, shower, stretches, food. Usually only takes me 2 hours.

3-4 hours after work, catch up on improvement reading. Good nights I write for 2.5ish hours. Bad nights I fit 30 minutes. But always something.

Saturday, flash fiction up on my website. Reading, social hobbies if I have plans

Sunday, prep for the work week. Writing in the afternoon and evening

>>20621864
How do you have mental energy for any of that? I work a very casual 9-5 (which really works out as a 6am-6.30pm time sink). I'm fucking braindead by the time I get home.

>>20621856
>egotistical
All successful entertainers have egos. If you don't believe you are better than everyone else and thus deserve everyone's attention you will never succeed. The ones who pretend they are humble and shit are full of shit, or were extremely lucky and had it handed to them.

And yes, I don't like you and I don't care about your bitch-ass opinions.

>>20621879
Have any of your work you can share?

>>20621870
I have the advantage of a short commute and everything being very close to my house. The exercise I will say is the most helpful. Getting back to my house I do just want to zonk out watching YouTube or playing video games and sometimes I do, to the detriment of my writing. But staying physically active keeps my energy levels up enough to just run the gamut. The rest is just me sticking to a routine.

>>20621880
As a matter of fact, I do. I might post something later today, or tomorrow. Or never. It's hard to say.
I'm extremely fearful of one day being doxed. I've blogged about some of my half-baked ideas so anything I post here I must make sure cannot be linked back to me.

That, or I need to write something brand new. Give me a prompt and if it isn't stupid as shit I'll throw something together.

>>20621913
This I don't get to be honest. Why tripfag if you're not going to share some work too? But I don't care about tripfagging the way others lose their minds over it.

>>20621879
>All successful entertainers have egos.
and so do you

>>20621927
he has no work

>>20621822
I also work 40 hours a week in my day job.
>read an hour before work and an hour at lunch
>sneak in little writing sessions on a notebook or reading if I can
>15 minutes commute where I listen to a podcasts to learn something
>finish any reading for an hour when I get home
>rest of the night is writing
And I have gotten better about doing this every day, I used to not write much when I started because I lacked the confidence.

>>20621939
not your blog either

>>20621001
There's a difference between being successful and being significant.

>>20621953
I know you didn't ask but some anons don't know how manage their time and have asked for examples before. That's all.

>>20621979
you're not replying to them you're just blogging fuck off with that shit

>>20621864
>>20621822
>>20621939
Why don't you post your writing rather than whatever the fuck this is.

>>20621956
Are you saying someone here is significant?

>>20621984
seethe

>>20621932
I'm glad you were able to follow along. There is hope for your dumbass yet.
>>20621927
>Why tripfag if you're not going to share some work too?
I might, but more importantly.
>Why tripfag
Because I have an ego.

>>20621956
>>20620876
He is very good with characters, making you believe the characters care for each other, and thus making YOU care for the characters. He masterfully follows the basics.

Focus on what someone successful does right, not what they do wrong. "But I have better prose than him" is a fallacy. You are thinking about it incorrectly.

I work 40 hours a month and barely write anything. I get paid like 26USD/hour and never pay tax though.

>>20622014
Also, Brandon Sanderson is prolific as fuck. He makes publishers very happy.

>>20621870
depends on the kind of work
programming is similar to writing
so, if you program all day, when you get home, it's going to be hard to write
harder than if you were a mailman or something like it

>>20622023
ALSO! (Sorry, I've done a deep analysis on Brandon Sanderson's success in the past and my past findings are coming back to me a little at a time)
He writes for several genres. Most writers when you walk into Barns and Nobel you will only find them in one place. Brandon Sanderson you will find in fiction, childrens, young adult, fantasy, comics, sci-fi and if they have the niche video game genre in that particular store you will find him there as well.
Also, he teaches classes on writing which you will find on youtube. He understands that many readers are aspiring writers.
He gives himself a presence, he finds his audience, helps his audience find himself. He is prolific as shit, and he succeeds in viral marketing.

He recently did something where he disguised a video as an apology like he was getting me-too'd or something. Upon watching the video it turns out he was actually apologizing for writing too much, or something like that. He proceeded to get millions of dollars in crowd funding. The man is a marketing genius disguised as some overweight dork. You got to respect the hustle.

>>20622064
>The man is a marketing genius disguised as some overweight dork. You got to respect the hustle.
No, you really don't. It's emblematic of everything that's wrong with how good writing-extrinsic factors have managed to seep into the artform. The commercialism has killed the art. Yes, it's always been like this to some degree... but it's "always been like this" in the same way that advertising has "always" existed. To equate a sign advertising fresh eggs to the kind of manipulative, applied psychology on a mass scale is either ignorant or disingenuous — with little room in between.

None of this has literally anything to do with writing itself.

>>20622134
No one is stopping writers from writing. If you want it to be a job and not a hobby you have to accept that you live in a capitalist society. Whether you deem it to be 'right' or not is meaningless.
Accept this, or with bitterness take it to your grave.

>>20622144
>If you want it to be a job and not a hobby you have to accept that you live in a capitalist society
There's a difference between accepting it and expressing your full-throated admiration of people who do well under the system. Your "analysis" of Sanderson earlier is basically "Well, uh... the characters are great, and, uh... he makes you really care about them." A post later, you're positively gushing with joy at the way he manipulates the way the market works to Sell Product. You know, to be a "successful entertainer." It just has nothing to do with writing. You are in the writing general. Writing. It is the primary focus, rather than incidental to the processes by which writers attain social status and currency. It'd be really great if you could stay on topic.

It is weird that I know when someone is giving shit advice or has a shit opinion and doesn't understand the work and or how to help improve it?

I'm pretty new i've only been writing for 2 and half years. So I don't know why I have such a bullshit radar.

>>20622168
Marketing is an inseparable part of writing in the real world.
You can go wank over your literary-fiction all day. That's fine with me.
But don't pretend we're all going to do that here.

>>20622168
characterization is a huge part of writing
if you have excellent characters, people will forgive the rest

>He pulled the cock out his mouth. "I'm not a prostitute," he said, "I just know how to market myself. We live in a capitalist society you know?" and he went on sucking it.

>>20622168
Is it possible to appreciate writing and also appreciate marketing? You're right I don't have too much to say about Brandon Sanderson's writing outside of he is basic but masterful in the basics. As a marketer there is a lot more I can say about him.
>It'd be really great if you could stay on topic.
Don't give me that shit. First, a conversation can deviate away from the express topic of the thread but I didn't even do that, I'm 100% on topic so what does that make you? Say it with me- It makes you a stupid bitch.

Talking about why hacky writers are successful is definitely staying on topic. I explained it better than anyone else could and I'm sure someone will appreciate the insight. I have that insight because I 'respect the hustle'. Yeah, I'm a real insightful motherfucker, motherfucker.

>>20622206
Better learn to love that dick if you ever want to get out of your 9-5 and having 'writer's block' take up whatever free time you do end up having.

>>20622202
>Marketing is an inseparable part of writing in the real world
why do i smell pennies

>>20622202
I mean, you can write because you enjoy it, or feel it gives you some other benefits.
You don't read because you expect to turn a profit, do you?
If you do care about profit you have to understand the game. If you don't care about profit then why be mad over the Stephen Kings and Sandersons in the first place? They are not even playing the same game as you if you "don't care"

I almost wonder if people who get butt-hurt about it are really jelly-bitches.

>>20622134
>It's emblematic of everything that's wrong with how good writing-extrinsic factors have managed to seep into the artform. The commercialism has killed the art. Yes, it's always been like this to some degree... but it's "always been like this" in the same way that advertising has "always" existed. To equate a sign advertising fresh eggs to the kind of manipulative, applied psychology on a mass scale is either ignorant or disingenuous — with little room in between.
The only thing that's changed is how people market their books. Great art has never had a direct correlation with sales. Not even good art, matter of fact. Balancing the art and the business has been mandatory since the Greeks. I don't think it's fair to call what Brandon does manipulative. He's just innovative with his marketing. Innovators have always triumphed with their book sales.

>>20622264
Or... and just hear me out on this... you can write...
WELL?!?!??!!?
Good even?
Perhaps, dare I say, IN ARTISTIC PURSUIT?
That's why, you retard. Because they've diminished the proliferation of quality literature by feeding the marketing machine.

>They are not even playing the same game as you if you "don't care"
Their game is to suppress our game, this should not be hard for you to understand.

>>20622274
>He's just innovative with his marketing. Innovators have always triumphed with their book sales.
See [long list of authors who were commercial failures in their time but are posthumously recognized as innovative artists]

>>20622286
1. Fernando Pessoa

>>20622280
>Their game is to suppress our game, this should not be hard for you to understand.
I understand that you believe that, and I also understand that you are a simple bitch.

Yeah, write good, write as an artistic pursuit, that's what I'm telling you to do. Your dumbass is just so bitter over them you have to find a way to make it so they are personally harming you, that way you can be justified in your bitterness. You are not being honest that you actually do care about commercial success but are too stupid to figure out how to do it. So now u jus mad yo.

Keep playing that victim card, you victim-bitches are everything that's wrong in this world.

>>20622021
what do you do?

>>20622313
You can either accept the fact that the commercialization of literature has lead to an objective drop in the amount of quality literature published, or you can cope and pretend like literature and commercialized books aren't the same medium and are somehow completely independent entities.

Pro tip

ADDRESS

MY

SHIT

DICKING

ARGUMENT

for once in your god damn life stop pretending you can read peoples minds and respond to the words that you see on your screen, and not the caricature you've created in your brain case of the person who SIMPLY MUST HAVE written those words. The nerve you have to call anyone a simple bitch. It's beyond my ability to even.

>>20622234
I'm not going to suck a dick. I'll just not produce anything artistic. But I swear I"ll earn my living by selling as much poison to people as I can.

i wish the 'u mad, bitches?' sange posting style had died with the 2010s

>>20622327
Am I currently speaking with rape-anon? If so, hello. I noticed you by your unhinged ranting and how easily "triggered" you are.

Explain to me how any would-be writer of this deep profound literature is prevented from writing it?

>>20622344
>But I swear I"ll earn my living by selling as much poison to people as I can.
an equally valid option.

>>20622345
I believe I stated earlier that I will never stop.

you're not gonna make it

>>20622286
>long list of authors who were commercial failures in their time but are posthumously recognized
you mean made up lies that are sold to you as marketing? 90% of those authors are post ww2 hacks and the other 20% are within the previous 50 years, there are literally none before and the list is short

>>20622345
j wish the tripfag died in 2010

>>20622286
You're wrongly conflating artistry with commercial sales. Besides that, plenty of innovative artists were hugely commercially successful.

>>20622365
every single person who uses the posterity argument is a creatively barren communist who has never written anything

>>20619138
dew eet

>>20622363
Actually, I didn't show up until 2012.
The fact my very first post with this trip got me banned gave it a special place in my heart.

I just write for fun and hope it sells a few copies

I'm going to write a fantasy book. The most generic fantasy hero's journey story there is. There are no good twists, nothing unique, incredibly predictable, and filled with unpronounceable sounding names and locations filled with apostrophes. And you can't stop me.

>>20622418
You're so original.

Question for anyone else writing in google docs, has this shit been acting weird lately? My older versions aren't loading properly nor tracking changes and my main file has been lagged as fuck as of late, takes forever to load. Had to dump my shit in notepad to back it up, takes like 10 min for the thing to load.

>>20622399
I just hope the evil capitalists don't try to stop you. It sounds like fun.
>>20622418
God speed, my friend.
>>20622424
Where are you from? A friend of mine from Australia had been complaining about it lately. It's been fine for me.

>>20617663
Underdogs don't exist. If you won, you were never the underdog. It's ALWAYS misplaced perception, mate.

>>20618387
If you never finish your first draft I wouldn't even consider you a writer.

>>20622432
Balkans, only started acting up last week. IIRC someone a while back mentioned it starts to get fucky when the word count starts to get a bit big, and I just passed 200k words. Might have to chop the main file down into smaller bits, oh well.

>>20618272
I actually really like tabbing in to give lit a glance every so often while writing. Feels like I'm not alone in my struggles when I see people discussing stuff here. Yeah the advice is shit 7/10 times, but I've gotten some really impactful and helpful feedback from posting my stuff here, so this place has earned itself a spot in my heart. I'll give you boys a mention in my foreword when I become a NYT bestseller.

>>20622466
>and I just passed 200k words
Oh yeah, that's your problem. I usually break it into another doc every 50k words or so.

>>20622424
i think there's a size limit
i'm starting my second act and i can see google docs slow down
it definitely takes a few seconds to load
many authors break their novels into chapter size files and I'm thinking of doing this

>>20622376
I will, next year. My backlog is enormous right now.

>>20618158
This is terrible. The first paragraph can be completely deleted. The're tons of repetition of not only words but entire scenes. The characters feel stiff and the sentence structure leaves a lot to be desired.

A while back I had this idea of a guy stalking a girl who's a ham radio operator and hopes she can catch a signal from space or the afterlife. He'd start sending her short-range signals from nearby, pretending to be someone from the future.
I decided to start writing the story from the woman's perspective. So far some ground rules have been established.
>in the post-apocalyptic future, a group of people is sending radio signals into the past in the hopes of establishing contact with someone who can help them avert the disaster
>no direct communication is possible, so they must follow a specific format for their messages
>all messages sent from the past must follow the format of date (d/m/y), exact time of day and the first name of the person sending the message (first name only, no last names), time-zones are also not necessary because each radio-operator in the future sends only short-range signals and thus their messages can only be received by those in the same time-zone in the past
>the exact date and time are necessary for exact communication, once the people in the future know when the message was sent, they send their response right after it as if they were responding to it (i.e. the stalker is just responding to it)
I haven't figured out what the fake disaster should be or what steps they're hoping to take to supposedly undo it.

>>20622647
A preventable apocalypse?
Nuclear war seems like an obvious one...and all too topical...

>wake up overflowing with plans for new manuscript
>spend 3 hours making fun of morbidly obese americans on the internet instead

>>20622803
Hope you had fun, anon. What's your approach normally for starting a project?

>>20622384
I showed up in 2012 too but I didn't make a big deal out of it like a retard.
Anyway how the fuck are you not on the verge of leaving? I think about it every day

>>20622836
>>>/pol/385058706
I had a blast. I was thinking about the structure of the story. I was going to do something cute, but decided it would be better to go with a straightforward mostly-chronological ordering. I already have the story itself detailed out and some sections of it written to get a feel for it and the characters, but there's not even a real first draft written, so this is the best time for major reorganizing. I haven't touched this one in a while, I was working on other stories. But those are finished so now I return.

My thoughts are really clear right when I wake up but before I've gotten out of bed. After that I feel shiftless and drowsy until I've mocked fat people enough to go on with my day.

>>20622848
Don't worry, I'll get bored and disappear for a few years again soon. I'm honestly procrastinating way too much right now.

>>20622864
Sometimes I start from abstract ideas that really move me and find a way to express it. Often times I riff off of personal anecdotes and keep analyzing it to see if I can work it into a story, if there's a kind of theme to it. With a few projects I've worked on there's overlap and I can wed some big idea to something I heard about or have experienced myself. I go for ideas, characters, settings and events first then start to make a few major scenes, then the scenes between them.

How to write about taboo subjects AND make it palatable the same time? If, say, an incesty smut love story is located in tolkienish milieu, perhaps it will dilute the appalment? It’s not our world but fantasy world, after all. Or make it an incesty smutty love story but have them only imply that it is one?

Where do I get conflicts from?
I've written the start of a dozen short stories and don't know how to introduce conflict. Rather, I don't know how to introduce conflict in a way that doesn't feel perfunctory, like I'm writing for a serialized television show. It feels like I'd be reinforcing bad habits to start going "and this is where I put the conflict" instead of using some other strategy.

>>20623079
Make it entertaining outside of the smut. You don’t need to apply a thin veneer of artistry over smut to have people read it.
Look at other examples of smut that are highly regarded or have their own community/fandom.

>>20623147
I've been reading gene wolf books and surprised by how smutty they can get

>>20623099
if your character's ex works with your character, they met at work, you already have some conflict. if the new hire is hot, that ads to the conflict. if the ex decides to falsely report harassment, that's even more conflict.
i think a story has conflict that generally never happens in real life. real life is boring for the most part. that's why people read

does anyone here do creative writing practices, if so what?

>>20623296
Flash fiction and a few challenges here and there from The 3AM Epiphany.

>>20619999
Checked.

>>20617361
it was good up to the point you say "another girl?"

why all the talk about clenching buttocks if it wasn't going to be a cabin boy?

you lost your audience at that point, anon.

>>20617501
you are out of touch, anon. they do NOT lose money on that stuff. that's the stuff that sells. it gets promoted heavily by the media, the talk shows, and it sells.

and don't forget that most book buyers are female.

>>20619259
A lot of writing is like that, and then you have go back and delete it all. I have more material deleted in my manuscript than I have stuff that stayed. A large part of it remains only in a certain sense. The event still happened but it's no longer given a scene (it's dealt with instead as narrative or backstory). As for dialogue, it always has to be condensed and redone, and eveyrthing that doesn't matter has to be deleted.

>>20617501
I've become convinced that money is largely made up and the vast majority of the entertainment industry is just a propaganda machine. Whether sonething makes $1000 or $1bil at the box office doesn't matter. The money is real, but it simply doesn't matter that much anymore.

>>20620948
Is he a /tv/ poster?

>>20623997
investors and producers have just perfected the art of making money whether or not something succeeds

>>20624000
Dude writes like four novels a year. I have to assume he doesn't even know there is an internet.

>>20624004
something like that. In the end there's a 1% of people who have so much money they can afford sustaining entire companies just because. I think nobody in history had this amount of power, not even the greatest emperors. it's like this small niche of people lives on another planet.

>>20623775
Hmmm.... What if the captain was bisexual and the cabin boy gets jealous because it's a girl he wanted that night?

>>20617501
>because it doesn't make money
Money is an illusion. They just print the money. Their goal isn't making money, these companies are part of a larger conglomerate and if they do lose money it's only a writeoff. The goal is to propagandize the public.

>>20624155
Even if this is true, which I lean towards cynicism, it isn't helpful to writing any more than it would be to market trading. Working in what one think to be a rigged system I think only serves to make one bitter, give up or sell out.

I was impelled to arrive within this "thread" for I was accosted by cretins in the one I conjured.
>>20624313
I request thee to grant me strength against this entourage of trolls and their imprecations.

>>20624877
Well, it would help if you actually learn how things are done around here before posting your crap.
Also, what you wrote is pretentious purple nonsense.
Undoubtedly, that's what set off the "trolls" you speak of.
I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
And one overly-purple paragraph doesn't make you a writer.
Try cranking out 60,000+ words to make a novel, minimum.

>>20624877
>>20624922

I’m a feminist btw

>>20624877
Can you retards just write an interesting story and not a thesaurus trying to be a story. I'm not reading any of the pretentious crap that gets posted here.

>>20625027
pretty sick of this shit too desu. they think it makes them sound smarter but in reality they've just outed themselves as a pseude

>>20625027
>>20625031
Is my story pretentious?
>>20617361


I'll be more than happy to improve it.

>>20625027
>>20625031
I hate men btw

>>20625034
No, its great in fact because it read like, y'know, A STORY. Too many anons here miss the style and substance of stories and just wanna be the next infinite jest or gravity's rainbow or whatever.

>>20625043
no need to repeat yourself >>20624943

New thread >>20625111
for when the time comes...

>>20625112
Why do you keep new threads early?

>>20625118
It's typical for /wg/ to have a new thread when it hits 300 responses.
It's /sffg/ that spazzes when it's done early.

>>20625118
Because for some time we had an autistic and terrible faggot who would nuke the OPs for his own bullshit reasons. Then either half the thread wouldn't care or a new thread would get janny'd.

Bump