/lit/ - Literature

>>20600208
>>>/lit/

>>20600208
I think we will eventually abandon the big bang theory and god in favour for an eternal universe, which constantly recreates itself.

>>20600226
Eastern religions will never be correct

>>20590064
You are wrong. Nowhere in that verse does God transfer the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day. Not surprised you're angry enough to kill over the truth being revealed to you.

Is cursing a sin? I try not to curse a lot but sometimes I do as well as singing along to curse words in songs

>>20600542
if you're asking, you know the answer.
your conscience gets a little heavy when you do, does it not?

>>20600542
and, it also has to do with when you do so. usually people curse when they're angry, and they curse at someone or something.
try to not even have hate or anger against trifles, perceived slights and other everyday things.

>>20600542
read James 3, especially verses 9-12

I feel like Christianity is more about who repents more than about who sins less

>>20600981
Welcome to the whole time all along. Genuine repenting should generally lead to less sinning though.

Just bought a Bible because something within me told me to read the entire thing, and I'm going by the 30 day reading chart on the sticky. I don't know why but suddenly I'm excited to read it. I also want to check out the cathedral nearby. Never had any interest until today. Interesting.

I know I shouldn’t be looking but women also shouldn’t be dressing like they do.

Yea, the trinity definitely isn't real. As I read more into the history of the bible and the church it's obvious. Not to mention Jesus never refers to himself as God and always talks about God as if he is a distinct entity from him.
How did the best European minds for a thousand years never speak up? Was it fear out of being burned at the stake? Why do Christians today still believe this garbage? Do they not read their bibles?

>Modern Biblical scholarship largely agrees that 1 John 5:7 seen in Latin and Greek texts after the 4th century and found in later translations such as the King James Translation, cannot be found in the oldest Greek and Latin texts.

>>20601366
https://biblehub.com/john/8-58.htm

https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-8.htm

>>20601366
>Modern Biblical scholarship
((()))

>>20601420
>https://biblehub.com/john/8-58.htm
This isn't him proclaiming to be God.
>https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm
This doesn't prove anything.
>https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-8.htm
Again, doesn't prove Jesus is God.

I am literally coming from this after reading the Gospels for the first time just a few days ago so I'm really not that familiar with everything. It just seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus was the messiah but not God. That God gave him power over the kingdom.

>>20601422
Yeah, I get it, Jews are trying to corrupt Christianity. But this doesn't change the fact that if you read the bible with no prior knowledge you would never come to to the conclusion that a trinity even exists. I just reread the gospels looking for anything that even suggests Jesus was God but found nothing.

Why are Christians so opposed to this idea? It doesn't disprove the divinity of Jesus. It doesn't nullify the faith or even imply that it is wrong. Why is it so impossible to believe that Jesus was a messiah but not God?

>>20601008
So are prots going to hell? They don't even need to repent cause they think faith is enough.

>>20601366
>Jesus never refers to himself as God and always talks about God as if he is a distinct entity from him.
You never read the bible
>John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.

>>20601497
>Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
This is said multiple times and doesn't mean that man and woman are literally the same thing.

>>20601515
>I'll just reject every verse that contradicts me and say he didn't actually mean it
Why are atheists like this?

>>20601527
Their goal is to feel smart not to understand.

>>20600542
I've always used coarse language, usually not even out of anger or anything like that, but just because it's been part of my pattern of speech as long as I can remember. I talk like a sailor because I am literally a sailor and when I do need to adjust because I'm around children or in a formal setting, it takes a lot of conscious effort to not toss a "fucking" or "goddamn" in as random filler words.

>>20601527
John 17:21-22

>What you are about to do, do quickly.
whad did he mewn by this? it doesn't sound like a mere permission. it's an affirmation. but Christ doesn't want anyone condemned, right?

>>20600208
"Dud" is an entirely subjective value that was applied by your anthropomorphic perspective.

There us no reason to believe that our universe is any more valid than any of those other "duds"

>>20601527
Like what? It's a fair objection, things are said to be one thing in the Bible without it meaning that one is literally the other.

>>20601547
I'm literally trying to understand. You're all getting extremely defensive for no reason. Just because you say you are one with someone doesn't mean you are saying you're literally the same thing as that person/thing.

All throughout the gospels Jesus never mentions he is God and always talks as if God is above him. Why would he do this is he literally was God?

I'm not trying to GET YOU. I'm just trying to understand where the trinity comes from and why so many believe in it.

>>20601497
>>20601527
>For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 2:5

Another EXPLICIT statement that Jesus is not God (among so many others). All quotes from the bible that you claim support the trinity are very IMPLICIT at best (and I'm being generous). How can you not see this?

>>20601456
>This isn't him proclaiming to be God.
Yes, but He is confirming His pre-existance. Meaning Christ was an entity that existed long before He was incarnated through Mary; even before Adam.
>This doesn't prove anything.
It's a rather blatant passage, really. The beginning of John read in full paints a clear picture. The Word is God. Creation occured through the Word. The Word incarnated into the form of Jesus.
>Again, doesn't prove Jesus is God.
Being both "the beginning and the end," is a rather divine attribute, is it not? It doesn't prove the Trinity, but it does mean that Christ is more than man.

IMO, it seems like Bible translation peaked in the mid 20th century with the RSV (Protestant/literal/KJV type language but with influence from older manuscripts) and the JB (Catholic/looser language/tons of footnotes). Everything since then is either liberal rewriting to include woman clergy/sodomite rights (CEB/NRSV/NJB), or needless revisions to compete on the market (NIV/ESV/CSB/NASB).

Should I blame academia and evangelicalism for this, or is there really an apex that the RSV and JB reached in their respective fields and everything after is just spinning wheels?

>>20601687
OK. Let's say you can rationalize that as an affirmation of the trinity.

What about this? >>20601658 Any the many other examples of this. You pick and choose these very ambiguous statements while ignoring these very explicit statements that Jesus is not God.

>>20601515
if that wasn't literal, why did the pharisees want to stone Him over it?

>>20601606
>I'm not trying to GET YOU. I'm just trying to understand where the trinity comes from and why so many believe in it.
You just came in this thread telling how you just finished the Gospels (you obviously didn't as shown by others above) and how everyone else before you was wrong. Of course no one takes you seriously.

check this out
you know the inscription above Christ's cross?
in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Latin, yeah?
'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews'
the first(or last? a bit caught up in their grammar) letter for each word of it in Hebrew spells out the divine name given in Exodus.
that's why they tried to get Pilate to change it aswell.

>>20601606
because Christ is the Son. why would He not be under His Father?
also for the first paragraph, >>20601809

>>20601799
>What about this?
What about it? The man Jesus Christ (the incarnation of the Son or the Word) is the only way to God for us (the Son is part of the Godhead).

What do we think about Samson?

>>20601799
What is ambiguous about John 1:1? With 1 Timothy 2:5, are you focusing on "the man Christ Jesus"? Because Jesus Christ as mediator between God the Father and man because him a powerful spirit, a heavenly being. The question is the relationship between the Father and the Son. Arianism propses the Son is a created being, being produced as some point in time, and thus distinct, subordinate and inferior to the Father. Nicene orthodoxy views Christ as uncreated but instead eternally begotten, coessential, and equal with the Father. This is the view the beginning of John seems to favour.

Did many jews convert in the first centuries AD? do we have any estimated numbers?

>>20602058
yes. no specifics, as far as i know.

>>20601583
And so is your entire post lmao

>>20601828
He wrote it in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew

>>20602128
What does that even mean? Speak non-autist for once

I don't really get the new covenant. God in the OT would order genocides and massacres, then suddenly he had a change of heart (but not really because God is unchanging) and did a 180 and decided to change everything. Then the ones who didn't believe were now sinning after 1000 years of following the Law. Things don't add up.

>>20600592
My conscience gets a little heavy when I come to /lit/. What does that mean?

>>20602137
pardon the error, didn't check.
still, the Hebrew stands

>>20602155
means you shouldn't. i honestly think these threads are the only good thing here, really.

>>20602150
Why don't you search for an explanation instead of trying to pull others down into that same mud of doubt?
the way you word that seems you're purposefully trying to get people doubtful.

>>20602150
now to properly answer that, to save humanity.
everyone under the Mosaic law also wasn't holy or righteous. they all failed it. why would there be sacrifices for sin otherwise?
Christ redeemed all of humanity through His sacrifice. He's the eternal high priest, and the sacrificial lamb.
as is stated everywhere in Scripture "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

>>20602146
Your post is based on an entirely subjective value that was applied by your anthropomorphic perspective.

There is no reason to believe that your posts are any more valid than any of those other posts.

>>20602192
Didn't really get how this was supposed to answer my question. Doesn't explain the change.

>>20602207
because everyone was damned otherwise.

>>20602195
>dimwit ramblings
My post is not a value judgement tho. .

>>20602234
Still doesn't explain the change. Why did the radical change occur in the unchanging God? Why not have Christ's message from the beginning?

I've at this point resigned that I'll die an atheist but I still take a rosary to bed and try to get a full rope done before falling asleep. I don't know why I do it. I've disappeared from the church I used to go to because in my heart I did not believe. It pains me because in the end all emphasis in Scriptures is obviously about belief, and I can't manage that. I think I just like the idea of Jesus Christ as a point of reference although in the end I also massively fail at upholding any of the Christian tenets. Reading the Bible doesn't help.

>>20601583
Well we exist so...

>>20602241
calling God unchanging and questioning anything He does because it is a 'change' is literally trifling.

>>20602250
And? How does that give any inherent value to our universe that's not present in any of those other possibilities. So kuch so that the word dud can be applied to them. Unless you believe that human existence itself is inherently valuable. But can you prove it non-anthropomorphically?

>>20602236
Says your anthropomorphic perspective.

>>20602241
>>20602257
also, to show us our error. Would you accept if God told you you're forgiven if you thought you didn't have any sin? wouldn't you be enraged at that "accusation"?

>>20602268
Its funny how your kind resorts to disingenuous bullshit because they can't refute a simple point

>>20602248
Try believing in the small miracles or at least
>He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

>>20602274
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

>>20601464
James refutes them, and Jesus said to be perfect. They should fear for their salvation and work it out with fear and trembling (as Paul said)

>>20602269
to expand upon that, to show us our error, to teach us what is good, and to teach us humility(by acceptance of that sin). and more stuff also.
God gave the chance to follow His law in every covenant (with Moses, with Noah, etc) and they still failed Him. Christ followed and completed every one of those covenants, so that through Him we may be saved. that's to say, He succeeded where we failed, for us.

>>20602248
Religion is hard to let go of that easily. There's a psychological allure to it. I myself went back and forth between fedora atheism and faith before I finally decided to choose the former.

We don't lose faith because uts irrational(humans are not rational creatures). We do it because the environment we are in is not conductive to it.

>>20602282
>still no refutal
Nice troll

>>20602248
here's what you need: read the Prophets.
Jeremiah prophesizes the babilonian exile; Daniel prophesized the next three empires to rule Israel.
and Gabriel tells him the exact time of the arrival of the Messiah: https://youtu.be/pRDjAv3SKrU

>>20601366
>he thinks this passage is why people believe in the Trinity
>he doesn’t know this verse only existed in the West
LMAO

>>20602298
check out >>20602310
archaeology confirms Biblical history; Biblical prophecy is fulfilled.

What does it mean to become 33 years of age?

>>20602349
be or turn 33 years old

>>20602357
They think Jesus died at 33. Is this significant?

>>20602373
give me more context on your question. verses and whatnot.
for a blanket answer, not an important number.
Christ started His ministry at 30, and He preached among the people for 3 years, so the math checks out.

>>20602391
correcting myself, it's likely.

>>20602373
He recapitulated human nature up to the point of full development

>>20600208
I actually just read Life of the Cosmos and the whole thesis is that universes must reproduce in some way and follow survival of the fittest. His main point of evidence is the arbitrariness of the universal constants, which have infinite digits but only the first five or six actually "matter" in terms of their effect on the universe. His theory is that every singularity is another universe, and so overtime the universe would evolve to create as many black holes as possible. He proposes testing this by trying to find a modification to a universal constant that would result in more black holes, and most of the book is showing that at the least the simplest things to model would undoubtedly lead to fewer black holes and thus our universe does indeed seem to be geared toward black hole production.

It's a great book you all should read it. Undoubtedly has more to teach you than a bunch of schizoramblings spewed out by a bunch of ignorant desert dwellers thousands of years ago.
Tho the wisdom books are quite good I'll give ya that.

Why should I be sad that people die? Why is depression not a sin?

>>20602769
>Why should I be sad that people die?
You shouldn't.
>Why is depression not a sin?
Because if depression brings you to God or furthers your faith then it's good.

>american hours
>bible thread dies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdUIqKJyD0Q

>>20602248
Anon I was a hard atheist for about 20 years and I was 100% convinced I'll never convert. But, like you, I got a cross necklace, I was reading what I could, I attended service, and God had mercy on me and gave me a second chance. The author that did it for me was Berkeley, but God shines our path and each of us has different barriers.

>that anon who thinks he 'read' the Bible but read it in translation
Ὦ οὐκ οὐκ οὐκ... χαχαχαχα

>>20601098
By the grace of God this will be a wonderful and eye-opening experience for you. In the years following my confirmation I strayed, but after rediscovering the faith I now know the true meaning of goodness.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matt 7:16

Jah Jah bless, one love amirite

>>20601464
>>20602284
You guys are so brainwashed, it's so tiring dealing with your lies, false witness, and strawmen.
http://www.reachingcatholics.org/reaching.html

>>20605380
It doesn't even occur to them that protestants aren't a hierarchical organized cult like theirs so they see one protestant church in apostasy and think that represents all, meanwhile the global representative of their religion endorses sin like homosexuality and their church claims this man is infallible and they have endless mental gymnastics to justify it (similar to how they justify worshipping mary). No point arguing with cultists who don't even know what the Bible says or they outright disregard it for their tradition and don't see how that makes them likened to the scribes and Pharisees.

>>20605380
>http://www.reachingcatholics.org/reaching.html
This was a terrible read. Also Catholics shed blood during the eucharist.

Why do prots even care to reach to non-prots? You're already saved, no? Just go party and embrace the ideology of the day.

>>20605392
>(similar to how they justify worshipping mary)
Why do you only ever use dishonest criticisms? Others criticize you for precisely what you believe in (faith alone) while you make strawmen arguments. Provide some honest criticisms of Orthodoxy if you're able to be honest.

I find it hard to pray to Mary because my mother never loved me.
How do I overcome this?

>>20601366
I'm a Catholic but I often wonder why, if Jesus was God, why does Jesus come back and why does God AND Jesus preside over the Last Judgement?

>>20604909
Niggers literally can't make anything not about identity politics can they

>>20600350
>Eastern religions will never be correct
Read the greeks.

I just wanted to find an English Bible written in IPO phonetic alphabet to help some ESLs, but then I find this heresy:
https://phoneticenglishbible.com/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-TORAH-JUNE-2022.pdf

Have any of youse/ ye/ y’all taken a vow of celibacy?

>>20605442
Mary is your true spiritual Mother, read John 19:25-27. I like to think about how Mary is in many ways the archetypal example of someone excepting Christ into their life, albeit in a unique and especially exemplary sense. She was very humble and trusting of God, and agreed to bear Jesus with little resistance if any. She merely said ‘May it be according to your word, Lord’. She has none of the flaws of earthly mothers by the grace of God.

>>20605380
You’re in a cult, dude. Protestantism is a false Gospel. It’s literally impossible to believe in if you know quite literally anything about the first 1,500 years of the Church, especially when it cames to the idea of Apostolic Tradition, Ecumenical Councils, Church hierarchy, the fact that the Eucharist is truly Christ’s body and blood, the formation of the Biblical canon over time, and literally anything else. Don’t throw away the true Church just because you want to follow the teachings of a vulgar coomer monk.

>>20605412
Why do you even enter these threads when all you want to discuss is your tradition which makes the word of God of none effect? You guys never actually discuss the Bible and that's the only reason these threads are tolerated. Once people who actually discuss it enter them, the threads start getting spammed and the mods start banning the threads again.

>>20605418
https://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/ro-idolatry.htm
https://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/worshipping_statues.htm
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/idolatry.htm

>>20605442
You should find it hard because God calls it an abomination, praying to the dead (and they have semantics and pilpul to deny that they pray to the dead when they pray to the dead because they're praying for Mary to pray for them). They are liars who hate the truth, hence why they'll call their abominable prayer "asking" instead of prayer.

The Bible reveals the state of the dead and nowhere in the Word do we see Mary being an exception as was Enoch or Elijah. Mary can't hear you; neither do those stone, silver, or gold idols hear you (Psalms 115).

>>20606148
>no you
It's funny how you never actually discuss the Bible. The only extent to which you do is claiming authority or authorship over it, and if that were true then why does your cult reject it so often? Over 80% of catholic practices do not come from the Bible at all, they even admit it much of the time. So stop LARPing as a Christian and admit you're a fraud and liar.

>>20605872
see >>20606151

>>20606157
Popery and Protestantism are both the same cancer from the same soil. The West was a mistake.

>>20606148
Instead of dumping links and images, state your arguments logically. Is your only argument against Orthodoxy that they believe Mary can hear their prayers? No ranting, no links, no strawmen: just state your position against the Orthodox church.

>>20606244
Protestants couldn’t argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

>>20606244
You could spend 2 seconds to look at the links, they're idolaters. Go worship your golden calf.

>>20600214
it's >>>/his/

>>20607173
https://www.4channel.org/rules#his
>Discussions about books, poetry, and other forms of literature should be posted on /lit/.

>>20607148
Refuted by St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore the Studite (pbuh)

>>20600592
my conscience gets a little heavier the longer I go without watching scat or beastilaity.

>>20600208
Stop larping.

I can't shake off the feeling that protestants are not Christians. I want to suggest to a friend to go to the Church, but I know they'll go to a protestant church, and I'm not convinced it'll do much good. It's like suggesting people to "read a book" but they just read YA. In the end, it doesn't help even if sounds good in theory.

i've been reading through the OT (KJV) recently and it's actually a lot more enjoyable than i was expecting, it's legitimately great literature.
i was wondering though - do people actually take what happened in it literally? if so, how come? especially considering all the historical gap-filling that's been done in the last few hundred years, i find it hard to imagine someone reading these stories as something more than the cultural myths/history of judea

>>20608337
Yes I take them literally. I don't think it's great literature but I enjoy it because I learn more about God. I don't care about secular opinions on the word of God. Maybe it's a fun exercise for heathens but I have zero interest in it nor do I see the point of it.

>>20602014
EEHAUUGHH!!!

What was the meaning of Samson? I felt like I was reading about Conan but actually written during the bronze age.

>>20608337
I take the Bible as literal. I believe in a young earth, the historical reality of Adam and Eve, the Nephilim, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the events of Exodus, all of that. The main reason is because after several religious experiences I have had, I can see no reason why I would doubt the text given that I have been directly told to follow Jesus Christ and have felt the Holy Spirit. It’s not just fideism though. I think I’m quite justified in my position. Archeological evidence has confirmed the existence of many of the kings of the Bible, historical peoples mentioned in the Bible that archeologists once said didn’t exist like the Hittites are confirmed to have existed, many cultures have myths of a massive and destructive flood, angels / gods descending to earth to mate with women, and there is also a dearth of evidence out there which confirms that molecules-to-man macroevolution is a complex modern myth, and that the earth is young, as the Bible teaches. Even then, most of this science of the historical type is extremely speculative and based on not-so-obvious presuppositions (uniformity of nature over time, uniformitarianism, length of the past being billions of years, materialism / naturalism, etc). This is often done with historical research and historical critical approaches to texts too, shaping their conclusions.

>>20608030
I feel for many Protestants. They are enthusiastic for Christ, but do not understand the Gospel, and follow a false Gospel and often slander the Church of history as pagan or unbiblical. I admire their zeal for evangelism and producing Bible translations though. I fear for their salvation though. Pray for them.

I wanked again.
God help me.

>>20602769
Because everyone will die, it is like being sad that you took a shit or something.

I'm going to write a rally song and perhaps a music video thereof about Christian Unity and Reconciliation, but first, I need to know howso all the Denominations are similar to Catholicism in their doctrine (specifically those that constitute 50% or more of a national subdivision anywhere in the world).
So far I have:
-Apostolic Succession: Orthodox
-Episcopal: Anglicanism
-Trinitarian: All the rest

>>20605872
>>20606151
Catholics are the first protestants.
Begom Orthodox, reject natural theology. Embrace revelation.

>>20608940
What's your issue with protestants?

>>20608889
Christians say he was supposed to be a counter example about what not to do, but God helped him until the very end and he's not really condemned.

>Christians say about Christians say he was supposed to be about Christians say he was supposed to be he was supposed to be a counter example about Christians say he was supposed to be about Christians say he was supposed to be a counter example about what not to do, but God helped him a counter example about what not to do, but God helped him until the very end and he's not really condemned. what not to do, but God helped say he was supposed to be a counter example about what not to do, but God helped him until the very end and he's not really condemned. him until the very end and he's not really God helped say he was supposed to be a counter example about what not to do, but God he was supposed to helped him condemned.

>>20610077
faggot

University Alma Mater is paganism.

>Asking Mary to pray for you infuriates and confuses the Prot.
>Prots will pray for others and ask for prayers in times of need.
What did they mean by this?

>>20610294
I think they believe the dead can't hear you? Or that the dead have no influence over God's decisions? Or that the dead cannot impact the living? I can't tell because they don't communicate using coherent arguments. Other times they're just dishonest and pretend we pray to the dead as to God even if we don't.

Protestant theology revolves around owning the caths, Catholic theology revolves around defending the pope, Orthodox theology revolves around worshipping God.

Not really bible related but what do you anons think of glossolalia? Being raised in a pentecostal Church (not the hand wavy American kind) many of the followers spoke in tongues. I also received the ability to speak in tongues and was baptised when I was 12 years old.
But I've been having doubts lately whether it was truly the Holy Spirit or some form of prelest. It's quite a confusing situation. Being away from the Church for over a decade just compounds to the worries.

>>20600226
Based Heraclitus appreciator.

>>20610405
Heretical at best, demonic possession at worst.

>>20601583
They are classified as duds because matter wouldn't form any structure in other conditions

If the 'State of Grace' doesn't exist, why did I feel my heart touched by God after Confession, The Sacrament of Anointing the Sick, and the Blessed Eucharist, when all very many days I had done that before I had not gone to Confession?
Protestant 'Theology' can't explain the Euphoria I am feeling right now. Can my elevating Elation be 'debunked'? I'm usually cold and removed so there is no way this Joy is 'bipolar' or any of those Satanic Lies that distract from the fact of Possession.
>>20609005
This was my post on the very same day.
"Look not on our sins, but on the faith of Your Holy Church"
Thank you so much God, and now I will recite the Prayer to Saint Michael as my Priest advised:

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls.
Amen.

Please all reconcile, for differences divide and division destroys, yet likeness unites and unite preserves.

>>20610616
and unity preserves*
or unité, that works.

>>20610533
And why would having structures have any more value(independent of human feels) than a mush universe? Why would they be duds? They would just "be"

>>20601583
>>20610630
Anon you're posing as a nihilist. What do you expect to get out of this? We believe in objective truth, the sacredness of human nature, and the logos that arranged the world. You pretend you don't believe in anything, so there's no shared ground to argue with others ITT.

>>20610616
Michael the Archangel? an angel, like the messenger who talked to John in Revelation?
Revelation 19:10
>So I fell at his feet to worship him. But he told me, "Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

I read a bit about the major Protestant movements and compiled some notes. Any corrections/additions are welcome.

EUROPEAN / 16th century
>Anglicanism/Episcopalianism
They didn't like the Pope and it was mostly a political break off rather than theological. Sola scriptura is big but sola fide seems less strictly adhered to. Largest Protestant denomination (though I think there are more Pentecostals now?). Gave birth to Puritans, Quakers, and Methodists.
>Calvinism/Reformed/Presbyterian
Believe in predestination. They have five main points (TULIP). Gave birth to Arminianism, which influenced Baptists and Methodists.
>Lutheranism
Mostly concerned about "grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone." They maintain more sacraments than Calvinists, biggest in Germany and Sweden.
>Anabaptism
European movement focused on being baptized again once you profess your faith. Nonconformity to the world, includes the Amish.

AMERICAN / After 16th century
>Baptist
17th century. Like anabaptists they believe in believer's baptism, but they believe in justification by faith alone. Biggest Protestant denomination in the US.
>Methodism
18th century. You need to experience salvation, I think they believe in works not just faith alone. Gave birth to Adventists and Pentecostalism, evangelicals, important for American Great Awakening movements, used to be largest Protestant group in the US.
>Pentecostalism
19th century. Mystical American denomination. Somehow grew to be the largest denomination.
>Adventists
19th century. Some US group who cares a lot about "rapture" and eschatology.

So I got:
>Tree
Anabaptism -> Baptism
Anglicanism -> Methodism -> Pentecostalism/Adventists
Lutheranism
Calvinism
>General beliefs
Not all believe in "faith alone" but Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists do so strongly, and Anglicans sort of.
I think they all accept 2 sacraments (baptism and Eucharist) but only Anglicans accept more
They all believe in sola scriptura
I think they all agree with the Nicene Creed and the trinity
>Numbers
In terms of size: Pentecostalism > Anglicanism > Lutheranism > Baptism > Calvinism > Methodism > Adventism
Calvinists, Methodists, Adventists seem to be in decline and they don't have a large concentration in any country

I read a bit about the major Protestant movements and compiled some notes. Any corrections/additions are welcome.

EUROPEAN / 16th century
>Anglicanism/Episcopalianism
They didn't like the Pope and it was mostly a political break off rather than theological. Sola scriptura is big but sola fide seems less strictly adhered to. Largest Protestant denomination (though I think there are more Pentecostals now?). Gave birth to Puritans, Quakers, and Methodists.
>Calvinism/Reformed/Presbyterian
Believe in predestination. They have five main points (TULIP). Gave birth to Arminianism, which influenced Baptists and Methodists.
>Lutheranism
Mostly concerned about "grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone." They maintain more sacraments than Calvinists, biggest in Germany and Sweden.
>Anabaptism
European movement focused on being baptized again once you profess your faith. Nonconformity to the world, includes the Amish.

AMERICAN / After 16th century
>Baptist
17th century. Like anabaptists they believe in believer's baptism, but they believe in justification by faith alone. Biggest Protestant denomination in the US.
>Methodism
18th century. You need to experience salvation, I think they believe in works not just faith alone. Gave birth to Adventists and Pentecostalism, evangelicals, important for American Great Awakening movements, used to be largest Protestant group in the US.
>Pentecostalism
19th century. Mystical American denomination. Somehow grew to be the largest denomination.
>Adventists
19th century. Some US group who cares a lot about "rapture" and eschatology.

So I got:
>Tree
Anabaptism -> Baptism
Anglicanism -> Methodism -> Pentecostalism/Adventists
Lutheranism
Calvinism
>General beliefs
Not all believe in "faith alone" but Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists do so strongly, and Anglicans sort of.
I think they all accept 2 sacraments (baptism and Eucharist) but only Anglicans and Lutherans accept more.
They all believe in sola scriptura
I think they all agree with the Nicene Creed and the trinity
>Numbers
In terms of size: Pentecostalism > Anglicanism > Lutheranism > Baptism > Calvinism > Methodism > Adventism
Calvinists, Methodists, Adventists seem to be in decline and they don't have a large concentration in any country

>>20610042
Protestantism is just radically alien from the Church of the first 1500 years of history. No Church Father (I include the Apostles in this) believed in Sola Scriptura, and the Biblical canon so prized by Protestants is a product of the Church, albeit in a mutilated way, since they often neglect the Deuterocanonical texts. The canon was in flux for centuries, yet they pretend that the Bible fell from heaven like the Qur’an in my experience. The Protestant teaching of the ‘clarity of Scripture’ is another teaching shown false by history, as Protestant movements began to splinter even in Luther’s day, and continue to split in our own day, and will never stop splitting up. The Bible is best understood in the light of the Fathers of the Church and the teachings of the many saints of history, up to our own day. The idea of Sola Fide is another false teaching, as the Bible teaches good works as a necessary component to salvation, and teaches for us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12-13). Not even to mention the entire Epistle of James, which Luther despised and called an ‘epistle of straw’, attempting to remove it from his canon. Protestantism is fundamentally about picking and choosing. They pretend that the Apostles taught what they believe, when a mere glance at the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of the apostle John), Irenaeus of Lyons (disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John), and other figures such as Justin Martyr, Barnabas, Clement, etc. all show that Protestantism is a modern heretical movement. Learning about Church history makes being a Protestant or a Papist impossible.

>>20611190
>makes being a Protestant or a Papist impossible
What's the argument against Catholics? I think they use Matthew 16:18 to justify their pope.

>>20611229
The idea of Papal supremacy is largely derived from forgeries such as the Donation of Constantine which said the pope had universal jurisdiction over all of the other patriarchates, more forgeries such as the decretals of pseudo-Isidore, and later Gregorian reforms (just read stuff like Dictatus Papae). Roman Catholic apologists know that they can’t support the modern papacy from a historical perspective, so they often appeal to the idea of a ‘seminal theory’ that grows from a seed into the modern papal institution with supremacy, papal infallibility, and more. I don’t deny papal primacy though. This is amply supported. Peter was the first among the apostles, first among equals. Rome was also the most important city in its day, so to say it had primacy is to be expected, especially when it was the city in which Peter and Paul were martyred.

One can find many quotes like this in the Church Fathers:
> For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm

I would recommend reading Michael Whelton (a former Catholic)’s ‘Two Paths: Orthodoxy & Catholicism: Rome’s Claims of Papal Supremacy in Light of Orthodox Christian Teaching’

>>20606635
>>20607233
>>20608940
You clowns don't even read the Bible, what would you know of the gospel? You're just a fraud.

>>20608030
God hates your traditions.

>>20610042
They don't bow to the pope.

>>20609797
I'd rather not worship idols and attend churches full of graven images and abominations and traditions which make the Word of God of none effect.

>>20610382
"Orthodox" revolves around idol worship.

>>20610294
Stop disobeying God.
Stop disobeying Christ.

starting 2nd chronicles today. Almost to the halfway point of my front to back read through. Looking forward to getting into the new testament and reading about the ministry of Jesus.

Chronicles is basically a nice recap of Kings I guess? Kings was fun almost like game of thrones or something with all the politics and backstabbing, assassinations etc.

It's strange that there's not more Christian media despite almost 1/3rd of the world being Christian. There is so much incredible source material in the Bible that could make for some amazing movies/series in mainstream media.

>>20612229
>catholics barely read the Bible
makes sense considering they used to burn entire families alive for trying to read read Bible

>>20610645
There is shared ground as long as we are people who share this world(and this board).

Also if you presuppose a logos that drives this world then you can't make arguments about how that supposition is valid based on the idea that our universe is not a "dud". I. E. You can't prove something that you insist is true since you've already foregone the requirement for enquiry.

When you make a claim for validity of your beliefs , you step outside the security of "its true because its true" and expose your ideas. Hence my rebuttal, why is our universe anymore special than any of the other "duds"?

This universe maybe special to us for what we feel as creatures who inhabit it but from what we know the Universe does not think we're special. So why should our beliefs be? Rivers were still slowing and snow was still falling when we were not here to comprehend their beauty and they'll keep doing it when we're gone

>>20610645
>>20612478
Also its been very clear for quite some time now which side can claim the "objective truth"

>>20612478
>There is shared ground as long as we are people who share this world(and this board).
There isn't. You're antitheist and we're theists.

> Saul replied, “Say to David, ‘The king desires no other dowry but a hundred Philistine foreskins as revenge on his enemies.’ ” But Saul intended to cause David’s death at the hands of the Philistines

Anyone knows much about Arhur Holmes' theology? I'm pretty sure he's a premillenial evangelical protestant, but not sure about specifics.

>>20612626
Ok maybe then just don't say refutable shit then. Idc what you believe in. But when you say "our world so special" its bound to be questioned

>>20612800
Everyhing is "refutable" to a pretend play nihilist. I assume OP posted it to address rational people instead.

>>20608484
>I don't care about secular opinions on the word of God
how is it the word of god when it's been translated and retranslated and rewritten and reordered over and over again by many different cultures for 1000s of years

ngl lads not 100% sure what people consider left or right wing anymore.

>>20602282
ironic

>>20613066
The Holy Spirit guides the Church not to fall into error, so I trust their translations.

>>20610503
Yeah okay thanks anon. I decided to look up views on speaking in tongues in the orthodox tradition. It's valid. Just a minor gift of the Holy Spirit. Orthos will say it's better to pray in words that others can understand. But imo no one else should hear my prayers other than Christ and the Father.

>>20609769
>Lutheran: Confession
Over 90% in Greenland
>Pentecostal: Indulgences
Majority in random Sub-Saharean countries
>Methodists: Holiness movement / Faith needs works as well
Probably majority somewhere in the world

Not sure about Adventists, Presbyterians, and Baptists

>>20613398
>in the orthodox tradition. It's valid.
Source?

What kind of gymnastics you bunch do to call yourselves Christians and be racist at the same time?

>>20600226
I would just love for everyone to stop pretending they have the faintest clue how or why the universe exists.

>>20613508
I googled it lol. Also what Apostle Paul says about it.

>>20613570
racism and genocidal hatred is a crucial aspect of the christoid worldview, actually

>>20613636
I'm sure Jesus would think that, mate.
Kek.

>>20609769
Anglicanism believes in apostolic succession too though

>>20613650
>I don't believe in the Bible in the least
>and I don't study it
>BUT ME TELL YOU WHAT the bible means
Stick to exegesis of Harry Potter

For me? It's Gnosticism

>>20613570
>>20613624
>>20613636
>>20613650
>Europe goes to sleep
>thread gets flooded by r/atheism
Every time

>>20600542
If you try not to curse, you know already in your heart it’s something you should not do. It’s ok brother. The closer we go to Christ, the more positive light he shines on our habit. Don’t be discouraged that you have sinned against your own heart, but turn to Jesus for forgiveness of sins.

>>20601102
Yes brother, they shouldn’t dress like they do, but you shouldn’t be looking. Leave the glory of the judgement for Christ.

>>20602248
I know why you do it anon. You’re not fully resigned to being an atheist.

I think the main reason people remain in a denomination rather than recommuning with Catholicism is simply that they grew up with the church they are in or they found Christianity by converting through that church, and so they see that recommuning would ‘undo’ all the the time they have invested in their church because said churches have conflicts with Catholicism, but they themselves without this pressure would have no issue doing so.

Who's the unluckiest service member you've ever seen?
At pre RASP I heard rumors of an AFSOC washout who joined the Army on an 18x after finishing 4 years as SecFo, became a 21 day non select but was offered the chance to go to RASP by the cadre, and and finally slipped and broke his femur on the stairs of the barracks in week 7.

>>20614461
Wrong thread lol, don't post under the influence kids

>>20607588
this

>>20610748
Prayer =/= Worship, my friend.

>KJV
Colossians 1:12
>Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Tobit 12:15
>I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.
Revelation 8:4
>And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

>>20613658
Do they? I must have conflated that with Saint Peter's,
>>20611108
An Anglican pastor mentioned the Epistle of James when we were discussing Faith and Works, so they are more open to such, and most if not all believe in Trinity, Baptism, and one of those Councils (was it Nicaea or Trent?).
If only there was an infograph that depicts all the similarities and differences between denominations - that would make things much easier. There is one for the Bible itself, which is great resource to visualise the data therein.

stop reading and start worshipping bbc

Why are Anglicans so disorganized?
Orthodoxy and its 'Autocephalies' and constant Schisms seems more standardized in practice than Anglicanism. They even have ordained LGBT and Freemason ministers despite Synodal rulings against them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anglicanism/comments/hecgf1/anglican_views_of_freemasonry/

>>20615547
It's by design. Anglicans are 'pragmatic', 'big church', like the Tories where you find a very wide range from beliefs. It's just how anglos are, and their cultural/racial make-up overrides their religious beliefs. It's similar for all prots.

>>20615509
Anglicans are basically Orthodox in doctrine except with more autonomy so that they are less easily defined (leading to some liberal churches ordaining women, for example).

>>20616153
>Orthodox in doctrine
How? They don't even have a doctrine.

>>20616153
Lol, it is not the 1930s anymore.

Name one part of the Bible that tops this

This dude has BTFO all the dyerites. Who's going to stop him?

>>20601718
>IMO, it seems like Bible translation peaked in the mid 20th century
Mainstream Bible translation did peak in the mid-20th century, yes. The Protestant/ecumenical RSV, and the Catholic Knox, Confraternity, and JB translations between the UK and the US. That said, I'm actually pretty intrigued by the various forgotten NT translations of the 18th and 19th centuries. Most of them were, no doubt, forgotten for a good reason (I saw the Harwood thread a few days ago), but then sometimes I find a snippet of one quoted in an old essay and I wonder what the rest of the translation reads like.
>the RSV (Protestant/literal/KJV type language but with influence from older manuscripts)
The fact that the RSV, when released, was treated with scorn by the same people who hold it up as a bulwark against the NRSVue tells you a lot.
>and the JB (Catholic/looser language/tons of footnotes)
To this point, the RNJB is a tragedy. Literally all they had to do was retain the NJB but with "the LORD" in place of "Yahweh," and maybe store some readings from the JB, and they would've basically been golden. Instead, they neutered the notes, which are pretty much half the appeal of the JB tradition, and went full NRSV with the pronouns. The original JB and the NJB were basically built-in "Study Bibles" without needing to have separate "Study Bibles" produced; it was all there. And they stripped it down.
>Should I blame academia and evangelicalism for this, or is there really an apex that the RSV and JB reached in their respective fields and everything after is just spinning wheels?
Academia. Most people doing actual evangelizing are the people with their old KJVs or Douays or RSVs (RSV71 or RSV-CE/2CE); on the Protestant end, the ESV, NASB, and rarely the CSB make some appearances, too, but usually by young people for the ESV and CSB and people who basically want a stand-in for a rigid interlinear for the NASB.

In short, they'll justify new translations because "language is evolving!" but the great tragedy is that BIble publishers are allowing the BIble translations to be dictated by the whims of modern language's evolution rather than trying to have modern language's evolution dictated by the Bible translations.

>>20617469
Another thought crossed my mind. One of the other big reasons why translators keep spinning the wheels is in their neverending quest for a "Common Bible" for everyone. The RSV Common Bible was almost that, but then it got tossed aside in favor of making the NRSV, and the NRSV proceeded to piss off Catholics, Orthodox, and conservative Protestants who bailed; those Protestants made the ESV in 2001, those Catholics revised the RSV-CE into a 2CE in 2006, and those Orthodox continued to settle for the NKJV for the most part. The greatest damage the NRSV did in the world of Bibles was singlehandedly destroy the quest for a truly "common" Bible just as it was in their grasp. In an alternate world where we currently have the RSV-CE, RSV-EE, and RSV-OE, plus a uniform "RSV" where all the varients in those three are collected in footnotes, things are better.

>>20617547
The KJB was already the "common Bible" of a long calmed pond until the cement block of the RSV was tossed into the water.

Prots talk about translations the same way /p/ talks about photography gear but can't take a good photo to save their lives.

>>20617592
>The KJB was already the "common Bible"
The Christians using the Geneva Bible certainly didn't think so. The Geneva being the Bible of Shakespeare means people to this day hear its words. The KJV was a just a royalist-influenced revision of the Bishop's Bible that retained too much papist shit like "bishops" and the Johannine Comma. Not sure why Catholics hate the KJV because it basically has all their corruptions in it.

>tfw you learn that Luther allowed bigamy, said women should be raped and killed if they don’t have sex with their husbands, and he affirmed sola scriptura even though he wanted to remove important parts of the Bible for disagreeing with his theology

>>20618159
Sounds like he'd fit in perfectly on 4chan.

>>20618159
Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc. are basically fake prophets like Muhammed but for Germanic autists

>>20618159

Convenient re-writing of the bible has occurred in every historical period and is not peculiar to Luther. And yes, the orthodox, catholics and Ethiopians have done it too.

>>20618257
>the orthodox, catholics and Ethiopians have done it too.
Source

>>20618234
I find it interesting how many heretics are so similar. I guess it all springs from the same sort of spiritual delusion at the end of the day.

>>20618159
>women should be raped and killed if they don’t have sex with their husbands

Holy based. I'm a calvinist now

>>20618577
based *lutherian

>>20618577
>calls Luther based
>becomes Calvinist instead of Lutheran
bruh

>What you are about to do, do quickly.
what did he mean by this? it doesn't sound like a mere permission. it's an affirmation. but Christ doesn't want anyone condemned, right?

>>20618645
IMO (which could be heterodox), Judas' betrayal was not essential to Christ's mission, in that if Judas had not betrayed Christ then the Crucifixion would still have come to pass. Despite this, Christ was not going to force Judas to obey him or prevent Judas from making his own choices - especially since, if you agree with certain readings of his character, those choices were made out of a sense of twisted moral duty and distorted love for the Savior rather than a simple love for money - and so He tells Judas to act swiftly and decisively to put in motion the vehicle by which Christ would save humanity. It's also my opinion that the true sin Judas committed was to take his own life out of despair, and that had he lived on and encountered the risen Christ he may have been forgiven.
If anyone has greater insight on Judas and Christ I'd love to hear your input.

>>20618745
> It's also my opinion that the true sin Judas committed was to take his own life out of despair, and that had he lived on and encountered the risen Christ he may have been forgiven.
Totally agree. What Judas did is something that we in one sense or another do quite often—betray God in exchange for vain things. It was undeniably a grevious and horrible sin, but his repentance was always a possibility.

>>20618745
>especially since, if you agree with certain readings of his character, those choices were made out of a sense of twisted moral duty and distorted love for the Savior rather than a simple love for money
I've never heard this claim, can you explain

>>20619012
Check out pic related. His thesis (drawn from select readings of verses which are admittedly not conclusive proof of his opinions) is that Judas, being a Jew full of revolutionary zeal, saw Jesus as the prophesied martial hero who would overthrow Rome and restore the kingdom of Israel with the aid of His divine power, but became frustrated when He refused to reveal Himself and deeply troubled by His continued talk of a future event in which He would die. To resolve this problem, Judas decides to force Jesus into action by betraying Him to the Sanhedrin, believing that on the cross Jesus would have no other choice but to reveal Himself to the world and begin conquering the world in the name of the Messiah. When Jesus meekly goes to the cross and dies, Judas is filled with confusion and self-doubt and endless guilt, which turns into the despair that drives him to suicide.
The second part of the book is about the question of whether Judas was responsible for his actions and how free will and an all-powerful, all-knowing creator can coexist, but it's much more dense than the first.
Whether you agree with him or not, it's a fascinating read. Writings that go into depth about Judas are rare as most write him off as a simple lover of money or an archetypal betrayer with no further detail.

>>20618645
I take it as "you know that I know what you're doing so shit or get off the pot", plus other complex subtleties.

>>20612326
This is a great critique. An ubfathomable amount was produced between 1550-1850 but all of it was Protestant so no one salvaged it. Theodore Beza is a great example. John Wesley wrote 300 books and 40,000 sermons. Paul Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim's Progress and is literally the American's founding myth, wrote some 100-200.

Also, for sake of proper record keeling: For recent protestant theologians check out Rheinhold Niebuhr, Neuhaus, and Karl Barth.

>>20619261
John Bunyan, not paul bunyan, sorry lmfao

Anyone here have a good bible reading plan?

The Bible says we have to forgive, but that means it's bad to wish that some people went to hell. Like if I wish mass murders to go to hell it's bad. Then where's the justice if it's not on earth nor in the afterlife? Basically Christianity requires not only to give up any personal conception of justice but also to wish evil people to go to heaven.

>>20619594
Just read it.

>Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without
>And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness
>And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him
>And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren

Why Noah was so upset with his son seeing him naked? Or this is implying something else?

>>20619594
Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, John, Epistles, Revelation, OT.

>>20619657
A son should simply keep such things to himself instead of intruding on their father’s slumber. The audacity of inducing others to a scheme to cover the father’s shame warranted a curse upon him to forever more serve those with his impertinent spirit.

>>20619657
from a quick search, it appears that "told his brothers" is along the lines of 'made fun of his father'.
along with him not being supposed to go into the tent, nor helping himself instead of going to tell.
makes the most sense atleast.

>>20619594
Ascension's Bible in a Year.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1125/2740/files/the-official-365-day-reading-plan-for-the-bible-in-a-year_2.pdf

Will I be offending if I only donate $5 at church tomorrow?

Just finished Ezra. How many more chances is God going to give the jews? Christ is basically their final straw right? (Which they obviously reject)

They're rebuilding the temple now and promising to follow the laws of Moses. But I'm guessing they're going to screw up again and go back to wickedness. What's their problem?

>>20619921
>Christ is basically their final straw right? (Which they obviously reject)

But see Romans 9-11. Before the fat lady sings, the Jews will be back on center stage in the drama of human salvation.

>>20619598
>but also to wish evil people to go to heaven.
Yes, anon, the whole point is that humanity is collectively fallen and that none are without sin, so everyone entering heaven would be someone who was once sinful and who has repented. You should hope for even the foulest sinners to repent and enter heaven with the faithful in the end.

Is it true that the star on the flag of Israel is the demonic star of Rempham?
How come no mainstream Christian mentions this? You only see that talked about on 4chan.
Same for "synagogue of Satan". Mainstream people seem to not want to talk about that.

>>20620040
> How come no mainstream Christian mentions this?
Christians today have become scared of the Jews, or have turned them into an idol

>>20620191
Well?

>>20600619
The Bible always amazes me at how genius it is. Truly the word of God