/lit/ - Literature

>>20598664
There’s nothing new under the sun.

>>20598664
only hacks call it a hero’s journey who learned about it from the internet

it's all so gay and stupid

Yes

Broke: The Hero's Journey
Woke: The Fool's Journey

>>20598664
I like the "call to adventure" moment. Some are formulaic:

— "Here's your new assignment"
The Hound Of The Baskervilles, The Maltese Falcon, Doctor No

— "Your world is going to be destroyed"
Mrs Frisby And The Rats of NIMH, Watership Down, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy

— "There's this treasure just lying there, let's go and get it"
King Solomon's Mines, The Hobbit

— "Something odd has happened and we're putting together a team to investigate and you're an expert in the field"
Michael Crichton loves this (The Andromeda Strain, Congo, Jurassic Park, Sphere etc)


Some are a bit more unusual:

— Around The World In Eighty Days
Phileas Fogg makes a bet he can travel around the world in eighty days.

— The Prisoner Of Zenda
Protagonist looks exactly like the king of a country he's visiting. He's asked to impersonate him to thwart a coup attempt.

— On Her Majesty's Secret Service
James Bond, driving quickly, is overtaken provocatively by a pretty girl.

— The Crying Of Lot 49
Oedipa Maas is appointed (co-)executor of a large estate.

— The Hitch-Hiker (Roald Dahl)
Protagonist picks up a hitch-hiker who encourages him to show how fast his car will go.

— The Wonderful Story Of Henry Sugar (Roald Dahl)
Bored millionaire comes across a book describing an arcane meditation technique which can unlock amazing powers.

— Outer Dark
Rinthy Holme's brother tells her that her newborn baby has died. Mistrustful, she digs up the grave and finds it empty.

— The Crossing
Billy Parham traps a wolf preying on the cattle on his father's land and decides to take it back to Mexico.


What are some /lit/ favourites?

>>20599460
/Real/ hacks call it Harmon’s story circle, poser.

>>20598664
The most cringe of the midwit advices.

>>20598664
No. Embark on the hero's journey.

>>20599460
That's not true. I'm a hack who calls it the hero's journey because I learned about it in a college screenwriting class from Chris Vogler's The Writer's Journey. That was 1999, and the internet was still pretty useless back then.

>>20600066
Some of your calls to adventure are actually inciting incidents.

One of my favorite calls to adventure comes in Ghostbusters, and I like it because its a rare case where the protagonists give themselves their own call to adventure, which is possible because Ghostbusters has a trio of protagonists, with Peter as Id, Ray as Ego, and Egon as Superego. So you get this awesome, brilliant little pair of scenes with Peter (Id) convincing Ray (Ego) to throw caution to the wind and start a private business. So you have Peter enthusiastically making the call and Ray resisting ("You've never worked in the private sector. They expect results!"), immediately followed up by the Refusal of the Call as Ray as second thoughts, with Egon (Superego) rationally explaining exactly how fucked Ray is and Peter discouraging rationality ("Everyone has three mortgages!").

Another favorite is one of the most straightforward calls ever placed to a hero:
>"You must learn the ways of the Force if you are to accompany me to Alderaan."
That's some Mentor Classic. Offering the call phrased in as if the hero has already accepted it.

>>20598664
It’s cliché

>>20600876
Chris Vogler isn’t Joseph Campbell.

>>20600629
At least you admit to being a hack. Even Harmon calls it the Monomyth. It’s his writing room minions who call it story circles

I’d assume you at least read Harmon’s channel 101 essays, right?

>>20601352
>Chris Vogler isn’t Joseph Campbell.
...thank you, Captain Obvious?

>>20601372
YWNBAW

>>20601372
Hence, why you’re a hack, as only hacks call it a hero’s journey

Let us read from Campbell’s The Hero With A Thousand Faces

PROLOGUE: THE MONOMYTH

Oh hey, look at that. It’s called the Monomyth. Huh. I guess Chris forgot

>>20598682
fpbp

>>20601394
Don't want to be a woman. Meanwhile, you will never be a human being, you insensate mollusk.

>>20601440
Wow, you're an idiot. Look at you, pretending you've read Campbell. You clearly haven't, or you'd know WHY Vogler calls it the hero's journey. Stop pretending to be educated, you midwit posuer. Some of us are sufficiently educated to know you're a total fraud.

>>20598664
Then why the fuck are they so shit at it?
Fucking retards today couldn't write a hero's journey if you gave them that image.
The elixirs are dogshit and have been dogshit for the past 50 years. WHERE ARE MY COOL ELIXIRS?

Story structure enjoyed since the dawn of story telling?
>that shit gay af nigga, I like stories written by women instead

>>20603303
Someone’s upset they just... Didn’t read the book. The internet is filled with charlatans who pontificate on Campbell’s work without even reading Campbell’s work

>>20603767
Dude, you're the one who hasn't read the book. Campbell refers to the monomyth as the hero's journey constantly. Also as the hero's adventure, the journey of the hero, etc. You've got this bizarre notion that you "have" to call the hero's journey the monomyth, but what you don't get is that the monomyth IS the hero's journey, they're the same fucking thing.

>>20603933
Yes, you literally have to call it the Monomyth. Coined by James Joyce and coined by Campbell. As it implies the One-Myth. Which is the thesis of the book. It is also referred to as the Monomyth more frequently then the word Journey.

Seriously guise, just read the book.

>>20604083
>you literally have to
make me

>>20604103
Call it whatever you want but if it isn’t Monomyth, you’re a hack

>>20604083
>As it implies the One-Myth
Which is exactly why people don't use the term "monomyth," because there are plenty of stories that don't fit the monomyth. In addition to numerous experimental story models and unique outliers, Campbell overlooked an entire class of stories, almost always featuring female protagonists, that are rooted in the feminine experience, that could be called the "Ishtar myth." Beauty & the Beast is the most popular version of that myth in the modern era, but it's the basis of a lot of romances.

The monomyth is not the one and only myth. It's an inaccurate name because Campbell was a little too in love with his own theory. But the term "Hero's Journey" doesn't carry that same connotation, and really does essentially describe every story with hero (a masculine one, at least, I'd argue that Orpheus and his inheritors, despite being male, have a heroine's journey). Which is why, over time, it's become the preferred term.

Moron.

>>20604170
Literally every story ever told ever and ever will be told is the Monomyth. If you read the book, you’d know that. And now in your effort to Internet Argue, you argue with Joseph Campbell himself. Maybe if you had a time machine, you could back and hold a gun to his head and tell him to change the name so you can feel better about yourself on the internet.

Pathetic.

Read the book anon.

Read the book.

>>20604185
I have read the book, unlike you. Also, unlike you, I have read many other books, including books about the book in question. Which is why this conversation is now over. You're a dumb posuer twat, and the only useful contribution you will ever make to society is self-termination. So please, for the betterment of humanity, go to Home Depot, buy an electric chainsaw, plug it in, turn it on, then fellate it until you are dead, you worthless, miserable pile of subhuman dog shit. Okay? Cool. Have a nice day.

>>20604194
>feels stupid
>tells me to kms

lol

>>20604206
I don't feel stupid. I feel like my time is being wasted by an ignorant fuckwit or someone doing an amazing impression of one. If the former, then you should kill yourself for the sake of the gene pool. If the later, you should kill yourself because you are wasting your life in an unproductive, antisocial endeavour, and suicide is the only real solution to the problem of your particular form of suffering. Whatever it is that motivates you to be a obnoxious twat can't be solved, you'll always be this way. Self-termination is a valid way to bring that suffering to an end, and is far more noble than inflicting yourself on the rest of us.

You should read The Lucifer Principle. Bloom explains in a very eloquent way why evolution and the health of society benefit when people like you take their own lives.

>>20604235
>switches topic entirely to evade his glaring stupidity around the Monomyth

lmao

>>20604194
Anon, he's just some dweeb trying to spool you up. He lost and now he's trying to mess with you to "win".

>>20604854
Yeah, I know. He should still kill himself. In fact, that's exactly why he should kill himself.

Dweebs who respond to losing arguments by doubling down on the stupid and ditching rationality in an effort to frustrate and annoy their opponent so that they can fraudulently claim victory due to emotional outburst are the dog shit on the sidewalk of the internet. Rather than inflicting their insecure bullshit on the rest of us, they should just kill themselves.

>>20598682
Anakin is the most /lit/ character.

>>20598682
>>20604975
Anakin's story is a subversive deceptive reversal of Jesus Christ's life meant to trick us into hating our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was written by Freemason George Lucas. Here is the analysis an anon did.
>Given it's an inverted hermeneutic story told by the Freemason George Lucas ~ "I wanted to tell old myths from a new perspective" when you figure out what he did, this was always the case.
>Vader is Jesus - Chosen One, prophesied to be born, born miraculously (to an actress who played Mary mother of Jesus the same year 1999), talks to the temple elders as a kid, storms the same temple as an adult, is motivated by love, associates with Padme Amidala, who is Mary Magdalene/Mary of the Migdal (Tower in Hebrew), is troubled by everyone's lack of faith, quotes Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, takes Luke (Lucifer) up to a high place and tempts him with rule over everything in an inversion of the temptation on the mount, comes back a second time as Kylo Ren "to finish what he started" bearing a fiery cross and with the First Order, who are the Roman Catholic Church complete with Inquisitors.
>Luke is Lucifer, spiritual leader of the rebellion.
>Han Solo is Azazel, who is equated with Horus, who ruled for a Millenium and whose symbol was a Falcon. He's also equated to the Dajjal of the Quran, who had a "companion so hairy one could not tell his front from his back".
>The Jedi are the Jews, and like Yeheshua becomes Jesus when latinized, Yehudi (Jews) becomes Jedi when latinized.
>Order 66 is 66AD when the Jewish Wars began
>Jeddah is the Israeli fortress of Masada, destroyed by the Romans when the Jewish diaspora happened some ended up in Degehabur in Ethiopia becoming the Falashas or Beta Israel Jews. Degehabur is Dagobah where Yoda ends up.
>And so on.
>It was always Masonic, it was always inverted and the Sith are the Christians, demonised.
Anons stay away from this demonic work. Find your way into the one true faith, Traditional Catholicism. God bless you anons.

>>20605017
>This is your mind on /pol/
Get a life.

>>20600066
Another idea which gets used a lot: "Protagonist encounters a stranger in desperate straits and gets pulled into a new and dangerous world." It helps if the stranger is female.

— The Woman In White (Collins)
Protagonist meets mysterious woman dressed in white (duh) who has perhaps escaped from a lunatic asylum.

— The Thirty-Nine Steps (Buchan)
Protagonist becomes friends with a neighbour who is investigating a gigantic geopolitical conspiracy. Neighbour is murdered & protagonist is framed for the crime.

— Kiss Me Deadly (Spillane)
P.I. picks up a beautiful woman hitch-hiker who is fleeing a criminal gang.

— Neverwhere (Gaiman)
Average nobody in London shelters wounded beautiful not-quite-human girl fleeing two sinister not-quite-human assassins.

>>20604170
You mention "The heroine's journey" I've never heard of this, could you explain what this is?

>>20598664
>>20598682
what would be the anti-hero's journey?

>>20605158
It's similar to the hero's journey in that it breaks down into the same three acts: incitement, journey to the underworld, and return, but has several significant differences.

The ur-model is the Ishtar myth, and the basic structure is:
>There is an injustice in the world.
>The heroine resolves to do something about it.
>She sets off into the Underworld.
>She passes through a series of Thresholds.
>At each Threshold, she surrenders some part of herself.
>To cross the final threshold, she sacrifices herself.
>She returns to life with a child/special power/army.
>She returns to the world of the living.
>She conquers the world.
>She changes the world, eliminating the injustice.

The biggest differences between the Hero's Journey and the Heroine's Journey is that the heroine typically begins with a whole bunch of ephemeral power, which she must surrender in order to gain true power. Unlike the hero, who gains allies and mentors and magic swords along his path, the heroine will start with allies, mentors and a magic sword, then have to choose between them and her goal, losing them the further along the path she goes. Also, there's often some external power that takes pity on the heroine or is impressed by her sacrifice, which usually saves her from death when she has to give up her life.

The ur-example is the Ishtar myth, in which Ishtar -- a powerful queen and goddess -- descends into the underworld, surrendering various articles of clothing and her jewels, which represent her earthly and magical powers, as she crosses through literal thresholds.

The Hero's Journey is a metaphor for an external adventure, and tracks pretty well to the traditional male experience -- boy leaves the home, meets a mentor who teaches him a skill, he makes friends with co-workers, he faces professional challenges, he finds the holy grail (i.e. pussy), and then "returns home" by becoming a father and creating his own home.

The Heroine's Journey likewise maps to the traditional feminine experience, and basically is
>Has to put up with men's bullshit
>Has to surrender her ego to get a husband
>Has to surrender her body to get a child
>Gets to control the child and mold the next generation of men

You can see this structure in stories like Beauty and the Beast and Snow White. In both stories you have the heroine being driven out of her comfortable life by injustice (murderous stepmother, imprisoned father), forced to sacrifice her freedom and comfort (live in the forest, live in the Beast's castle), in service to something otherworldly (the seven dwarves, the beast), the external savior (a prince in both cases).

Women with dark, magical powers (i.e. bad mothers!) are often the villains, sometimes in the deep background, such as the witch that curses the Beast, the evil queen that plots Snow's death, or Erishkigal in the original Ishtar myth.

To be clear, this isn't like some established idea. It's mostly my own.

>>20605158
Oh, I forgot I'd written up a whole map of the model, which I call "The Descent of the Goddess." Here's an explanation of the map:
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y8OI-lON8XfcnhO_dadSyCNNA-De7gyX/view?usp=sharing

>>20605017
You make connections because you see the universal matrix as is, recognizing the patterns that bind the cosmos yet the connections you make are motivated by fear and hate. You are not spiritually developed enough to withstand the vision you toy with.

>>20605166
>natural aid
>threshold offender
>obstructor
>deceiver
>discipline
>plurality, life & birth
>cis-formation
>punishment
>doesn't return

>>20605241
Besides the couple stories you mention, are there any others that fit?

>>20605353
Sure, tons of fairy tales with female protagonists fit. I can't remember the name off the top of my head (Ruskala?), but that Russian fairy tale about the girl who has to wear out three pairs of iron shoes and eat three loaves of stone bread fits. The Swam Princess fits. The Little Mermaid fits. The Persephone myth fits, kind of.

The Journey of Natty Gann fits, oddly enough. So does the movie Baby Boom, if you want to see how it can work in a modern context. A ton of horror movies with Final Girls fit, if you count all the people who get killed as things the heroine sacrifices.

Few stories fit it perfectly, because my goal isn't to do what Cambpell did. He was trying to unify all myths into one cohesive structure, which clearly doesn't work unless you really bend the definition of "cohesive."

My goal is to look at stories about heroines that emphasize feminine virtues and traits from a Jungian perspective and pull out of them a structure writers can use to tell stories about women that are not the exceedingly masculine Hero's Journey. Mostly because I think it's deeply problematic that our post-feminist society greatly devalues femininity and often unconsciously teaches girls that self-actualization requires rejecting femininity, embracing masculinity, and becoming some kind of psychically deformed hermaphrodite.

>>20605407
I like how this thread turned into you sperging out at jpegs of campbell’s work and now outright arguing with him

The Monomyth is all. If you read the book, you’d know the protagonist is either male or female. The apotheosis belies the hermaphodite, both masculine and feminine, and one with the universe. The only ritual altered by the protagonist’s gender, is the confrontation with the masculine, atonement with the father, and nurturing of the mother, the meeting of the goddess. These can be inverted per the protagonist. If you pontificate on early 2000’s interent schema about heroine journeys, truth is, you didn’t read the book, and you don’t understand the most basic apotheosis.

What a weird thread. To venerate and revere the work of Campbell. Then denigrate the man and molest his work for your own 4chan ramblings... For what? All this effort and you could have just read the book.

Sad thread. I think I’ll keep posting pages of actual Campbell while you type angry kys

>>20606138
>The Monomyth is all.
No serious person actually believes this. Pretending to be some kind of zealotic Campbell cultist so that you can irritate me is not nearly as clever as you think it is. Please kill yourself before you bore us some more.

>>20606174
George Lucas believes it. Dan Harmon believes it. William Goldman believed it. Alfonso Cuaron believes it.

Joseph Campbell believed it.

Read the book anon.

Read the book.

>>20606174
If you were a writer, you would start believing it too

>>20606190
Should I read masks of god?

>>20606320
sure

honestly Campbell’s skeleton of finnegan’s wake is the literary equivalent of atomic proof for his theory. hard to find a copy but that I would recommend most

even harder to find is Campbell’s a bit of Jung, his handbook on navigating the work of Carl Jung. I believe more informative than masks

agree or disagree with Campbell. Whatever. At least read the book. Bare minimum. hate the guy but know why you hate him instead of the internet selling you blurry jpgs with the word HERO JOURNEY plastered all over

what I find the most hilarious, and ironic, is this happens so frequently on the internet. Campbell is like a flame for the midwit moths of schizophrenia and pseudo-intellectualism. real intellectuals would flip the goddamn pages first before opening their mouths

>>20605166
The prequel series.

>>20600876
>That was 1999, and the internet was still pretty useless back then.
It's still pretty useless now omegalul.

>>20606777
Weirdly, it got way more useful, then got way less useful. There was this great period around 2010 where there were endless free resources that made doing research a breeze, now everything is behind firewalls or is cancerous with bandwidth slaughtering adware.

>>20606857
if I may, people our ageish treated the internet and the keyboards we typed into with mild reverence. Small missteps brought grammar nazis and fountains of correction. Now people younger then us are now the primary and most profitably demographic on the internet. They have no reverence for typing words into keyboards. Why would they? It’s all tiny 5 inch screens of cracked glass to them now. they think what they read on the internet is equatable to reading a book. it’s sad but as we age and they replace us, and they too are replaced by the next gen alpha, the internet will become progressively stupider.

like, imagine arguing about a book you’ve never read. the mind boggles

>>20605017
That's an interesting observation. The chosen one becoming the antagonist and his son who opposes him becomes the redeemer. The only thing I don't see is Darth Vader being Christlike, or how Anakin's transition into Darth Vader resembles Christ's passion in any way. Do you have a link or screencap of the original post?