/lit/ - Literature

>>20588859
>He points out that every other analyst has found that religion has been used by the nobility to control the poor
>Tips fedora

>>20588859
What was Russell's problem?

>>20588886
He was a sad cunt that thought Math was useful and once reality dicked him over realized he'd wasted his fucking existence so he needed to invalidate anyone remotely popular in his day, wrote an oversized paperweight for a field he knew fuck all about made up of the bits of conversation he picked up in the faculty lounge .

>>20588974
>t. nietzsche tranny

>>20588974
are you unironically implying that mathematics isn't useful?

>>20588859
>Russell begins by explaining that Nietzsche is not unintelligent
Who thought otherwise?

>>20588984
It''s not that it isn't useful, it's that writing hundreds of pages trying to prove 1+1=2 is a retarded and autistic way to approach it.

>>20588859
>> He condemns the “power-phantasies of an invalid” that are Nietzsche’s ethics. He points out that every other analyst has found that religion has been used by the nobility to control the poor and not, as Nietzsche argues, used by the weak to limit the ambition of the strong. He further argues that Nietzsche was a megalomaniac and this rotten foundation makes his ethical views questionable in terms of real use.
Based Nietzsche dabbing on socialists, atheists and basically every simplistic mind ever.

>>20588992
perhaps, but principia mathematica was majorly influential towards the development of the theory of computation, which has arguably changed the world more than any other scientific theory of the last century

anyone else a big nietzsche fan growing up, but gradually shifted more and more towards Russell and the like after growing up? I wouldn't say I dislike nietzsche, but I certainly see his philosophy as rather naive and childish looking back

>>20588985

>>20589017
Changed it in shit ways.

>>20588859
>“The Revolution made Napoleon possible: that is its justification. We ought to desire the anarchical collapse of the whole of our civilization if such a reward were to be its result.”
I don't recall Nietzsche ever saying this? In the GoM, his defense of Napoleon seems to arise from his hatred of Russia.

>>20589065
>n the GoM, his defense of Napoleon seems to arise from his hatred of Russia.
You haven't read him.

>>20589022
Complete opposite. I read Russell's intro to philosophy and found it useful, but very surface level and too opinionated. Reading Nietzche is an experience like no other though, the depth and beauty in his style of writing alone is captivating. I'm sure you never actually read him though.

>>20588859
Russell let other men stick their penises up his anus. That alone invalidates every argument he made since it is a known fact that every word out of a faggot's mouth is a stratagem to gain access to bumholes. I do not want to get bummed, therefore I disregard Russell.

>>20589089
reading nietzsche is like watching a drunk bard trying to copy max stirners work and claim it as his own, he doesn't understand voluntary egoism so he goes on to glorify cruelty and tries to add new values on top of the dismantled ones to make it his own missing the entire point of getting rid of values in the first place
it's like a kid writing a book about anarchy trying to justofy it but because he doesn't understand it he goes on to glorify the propaganda made about anarchy and says kicking puppies in the face is a sign of greatness because cruelty is aristocrasy
he comes off as a unhinged lunatic exactly because he doesn't understand the material he is copying

>>20589118
1/10 but slightly worried you're serious

>>20589121
overman is voluntary egoism with added self made values on top because the idiot didn't understand why stirner dismantled them in the first place

2deep5u poetry made to sound convoluted to distract the reader from what a copycat hack he is, when you get to the nittygritty of his thus spoke zarathustra you realize the guy just flat out ripped off stirner

>>20589135
So Stirner should get the credit for pre-emptively ruining Russell?

>>20589146
was russell anti-anarchist?
stirner doesn't glorify cruelty, on the contrary he just glorifies freedom from causes and ideologies that subjugate you

>>20589065
Nietzsche is positive toward Russia in Beyond Good and Evil. He is actually overall very negative toward the French Revolution in Genealogy but regards Napoleon as a major silver lining in that Napoleon harkened back to the conquerors of antiquity and hinted at a new sort of Roman Empire, a Caesar for the modern age

>>20589149
>stirner doesn't glorify cruelty,
So that was Nietzsche's own thought after all? Alright then.

>>20589156
that is nietzsche copying someone elses homework, having no clue why he wrote what he wrote and assuming "dude must be a ice cold baller yo"
stirner is pretty much just anarchist who rationalizes away the reasons to follow causes, ideologies and such, nietzsche being the hack he is justifies it by glorifying cruelty and subjugation
he read stirner but he was too fucking dumb to get why storner glorified freedom and being the gremlin he is he assumed it must be because kicking babies in the face is greatness

stirner is not even that hard to get, the reason nietzsche was so lost on his literature was because back then his ideas were revolutionary, you give any modern student a copy of the ego and its own and they'll immediately get "oh so he's just breaking down reasoning for anarchism"

>>20588974
Analytic Redditors on suicide watch

>>20589022
For me it's a change in my general attitude towards philosophy in general. I really think people who think the goal of philosophy should be to contribute "lived experience" or should be about what "matters" in life instead the exploration of what they see as sterile concepts and useless abstractions should stick to poetry and newspaper advice columns.

>>20589089
i'll take a wild guess and say you're probably not very well acquainted with mathematics and logic

>>20588859
I think Nietzsche is right on how Christianity started and survived during Roman persecution but then it became like every other religion where rich uses it to exploit the poor.

>>20589089
So you just believe a text if it makes you feel emotional? What are you, a woman?

>>20589150
What does he say positively about Russia? He called for a United Europe in GoM - and he only ever did that in reference to a future war with the Russians.

did nietzche ever actually comment on cruelty and cruelty alone

>>20589135
Not really. Stirner is much different than Nietzsche because Stirner doesn't have a future for European politics. He sees the world as Ephemeral like Ecclesiastes, and accepts the narrow horizon of happiness it can provide. Nietzsche was genuinely trying to develop a political alternative to the socialist, anarchist, democratic, nationalist movements to his day. He had many of ideas - ranging from a cultural renaissance to a United European project of super-humans to counter-weight the British and Russian Empire. You should read Nietzsche's "Great Politics." by Drochon. He demonstrates this quite easily with primary sources.

>>20590637
can you answer my question here>>20590632
I just want to know if nietzche cared if you were just a big old meany head

>>20588859
I saw yesterday an anon on here describing Russell as the first redditor and I cannot agree more.

>>20590656
In the Twilight of Idols, he argues free will doesn't exist, and that punishment is often out of the error of not understanding the causes of behavior. It he connects it to religious dogma.

>>20590656
He expressed those who have a strong desire to punish. He felt magnanimity was best but that if you have resentment for a wrong it is better to settle it with violence as catharsis and get it out of your system than to seethe since that twists your character into something repulsive

>>20590656
Nietzsche believes life is for experimentation, that many of the great things we have today is because people took risks to go beyond the ideological dogmas of his day, and that punishment gets in the way of allowing people to try things. Nietzsche himself personally detested socialism, but believed its existence was necessary to show the dangers of state power. He said himself he wouldn't care if the communists set up a government, and killed a ton of people, if it could prove the failure of their ideas. as a warning to them.

>>20590715
so nietzche doesnt care the overman can set up whatever system he wants

>>20588859
Pacificist anglo vegetarian atheist i fucking love basedence literal kekold doesn’t like gigachad Nietzsche, color me shocked

>>20590715
>>20590679
>>20590656
non of these answer my question, did nietzche love humans and like them to be alive or did he despise them and not care if millions die

>>20590715
This makes much more sense when you consider the fact in the GoM - Nietzsche praises the Russians for their fatalism over the cautious nature of Europeans because they rejected any sense of punishment and became men of action. He sees punishment as taming human action. It makes even more sense when you realize when the book was written - around the time the Russian nihilists were assassinating Tsarist officials.

>>20589022
Both are essentially crypto-Christians who attempted to address what one was supposed to do after abandoning belief in a sane or moral cosmos; Russell's approach was more or less that of the sneering atheists in the marketplace in Nietzsche's parable of the madman, assuming that we can just carry on all the same and basically pretend that we aren't completely fucked and thinking that you can have your cake and eat it too in wearing the mask of Christian morality while not actually believing in it (and make no mistake, Russell was absolutely a pessimist and a nihilist in spite of his lipservice to humanism) - whereas Nietzsche goes the direct opposite (but still no less fundamentally derived from a religious worldview) route by railing against the conclusion of "last men" like Russell and asserting that we should actually rejoice in all of the awful shit in life and embrace the moral abhorrence of the universe; another form of cope, obviously, but one that obviously offended people like Russell because it advocates complacence and affirmation of an eternal cosmic meatgrinder with no actual objective purpose aside from perpetuating its mindless self

Both were ultimately coping hard after coming to a very unsettling conclusion about life and existence, and despite one being marginally palatable over the other they equally serve as demonstration that Zapffe was right

>>20590740
The Overman was uniquely tied to Nietzsche's politics for Europe superseding the rest of the world. So, no. It doesn't make any sense to say this. Nietzsche was not some universalist - he's more akin to gnostics. Its only left-wing decadents that believe its a plan for everyone.

>>20590656
No? Nietzsche didn't want the parliamentary movements he saw growing in Russia and existing in Britain to subdue Europe's ability to dominate the world. His entire point of being against democracy was to show how equality removes any incentive for people to be ambitious out of the worry of punishment and social exclusion. The last man inevitability arises from democratic systems because it gives control of the government to most profligate, and decadent types of people who's only goal in life is pleasure and mediocrity in existence. They will only use government, in such a way, to maintain this existence instead of creating great men and cultural progress. There's reason why we don't see men like Napoleon and Caesar anymore in Europe. Great men no longer exist.

>>20588982
If you like Russell you're not allowed to call anyone a tranny.

>>20590836
so russel was right?

>>20590836
>cultural progress
Doesn't exist.

>>20590939
>Doesn't exist
Sorry, but not all of us are Solipsistic

>>20590764
What's wrong with the universe being a meatgrinder with suffering and no purpose?
That's life, just live bro and do stuff while you can.

>>20588859
>He points out that every other analyst has found that religion has been used by the nobility to control the poor
Gee, I bet the nobility felt real dumb when they were excommunicated. Also, the state is eternal and somebody always rules.

>>20589124
Anarchism is retarded.

>>20589165
In other words, Stirner is a nihilist who creates weak men who do nothing of value? Got it.

>>20588886
being right

>>20591857
Indeed. And the goal is for a noble society to perfect the ethics of dominating the universe.

>>20590750
Nietzsche was an elitist. In BGE he expresses how a military general is right in killing a son in front of his father b/c the value of life for that general is much lower b/c of how much power the general has and how much life he has to control. Nietzsche believed, as expressed in WtP, that the herd a base that would support the manifestation of the Overman. So basically, yes, most life is expendable. And yes, Nietzsche is right. Bertrand Russel is a cringe, feel good modernist philosopher.

>>20590740
The Overman isn't an arbitrary entity. There are certain principles, as outlined in TSZ that are necessary to qualify someone as an Overman. But the Overman is peak individualistic, aesthetic, and powerful spirit. Not attainable in modern times. HxH and MiA have examples of this.

"Concerning the order of rank.—What is it that constitutes the mediocrity of the typical man? That he does not understand that things necessarily have their other side; that he combats evil conditions as if they could be dispensed with, that he will not take the one with the other; that he would fain obliterate and erase the specific character of a thing, of a circumstance, of an age, and of a person, by calling only a portion of their qualities good, and suppressing the remainder. The "desirability" of the mediocre is that which we others combat: their ideal is something which shall no longer contain anything harmful, evil, dangerous, questionable, and destructive. We recognise the reverse of this: that with every growth of man his other side must grow as well; that the highest man, if such a concept be allowed, would be that man who would represent the antagonistic character of existence most strikingly, and would be its glory and its only justification.... Ordinary men may only represent a small corner and nook of this natural character; they perish the moment the multifariousness of the elements composing them, and the tension between their[Pg 317] antagonistic traits, increases: but this is the prerequisite for greatness in man. That man should become better and at the same time more evil, is my formula for this inevitable fact." Will to Power Volume 2

>>20590669
that's so incredibly far from the truth
almost certain that most people here criticising russell haven't actually read and/or understood his stuff

>>20591857
>What's wrong with the universe being a meatgrinder with suffering and no purpose?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Junko_Furuta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlequin-type_ichthyosis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_progressiva
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

Anyone's free to add to the list if they like of course, because this isn't even a fraction of a fraction of the collective agony that life on this nightmare planet entails

>>20592027
As someone who as read Russel, he is more like a roided out, more perfect version of a redditor. He makes very clear and precise arguments, but they are all shitty, generic reddit arguments at the end of the day.

>>20592034
All modern genocides are fake. Holohoax, Uyghur, Armenian. All fake. Genocide also fake modern term. Nihilism is cringe but your moralfag fake propaganda is cringer.

>>20592047
Exempt all the particular historical genocides you want, all life is one gigantic process of autocannibalism and genocide endlessly perpetuating itself.

>>20592064
And Russell's solution is what? Get cucked and bummed? Don't see how that helps, if there is anything to help at all.

>>20592034
Literally not a issue for me.

>>20592047
your use of the word "cringe" is moralizing
fucking retard

>>20592034
nietzscheans are subhuman

>>20592445
You making copes and impotently screaming will not change the world, let alone the universe.

>>20588859
>He points out that every other analyst has found that religion has been used by the nobility to control the poor and not, as Nietzsche argues, used by the weak to limit the ambition of the strong.
Christianity was literally a slave religion - the lowest tier, feed you to the lions, cuz you're not good enough to work the fields tier slave religion. christianity only gained traction among slaves at first, then women, then poor thirsty simp men, then finally low level elites who wanted to gained access to a large group of useful idiots as fodder against higher level elites.

>>20588859
russell was an insufferable fuck

>>20592034
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
>4 vs 1 Minority is getting "ethnicly cleansed" per the 90's parlance.
>Minority rises up and counter-genocides opressors
>kills or chases them completely out of the country within 4 months.
>oppressors set up refugee camps (aka terrorist/insurgent training camps) on the congolese border
>new rulers go to war with congo to make sure the bad guys never come back
fuck you, the Rwandan genocide was fucking awesome, and I'm grateful we got to see it happen during my lifetime.

>>20592445
>untermensch
tfw you have to unironically use nietzschean ideas and terminology in order to insult nietzschean ideas

>>20592034
Librarian of the Ordo Malleus, Joseph de Maistre.

>He points out that every other analyst has found that religion has been used by the nobility to control the poor and not, as Nietzsche argues, used by the weak to limit the ambition of the strong
He may be right here. The way Nietzsche justifies this argument in Genealogy is almost pure historic speculation.
However, leaving history and going to the psique, the ascetic ideal argument makes sense. For exemple, it seems that when the nerd insists to be recluse, and to say that violence is stupidity, he is trying to diminish the bully and be stronger than him.

>>20593781
He never makes a universal judgement on religion, that it is either used by the nobility or weak exclusively. He makes the judgement that Christianity, especially in its original form, is a more or less unconscious conspiracy of the disinherited, meek, etc., to curtail and leverage their own kind of control over the aristocracy. The only universal judgement made is that a proper aristocracy does not need religion in order to rule, because they are superior by default and cannot be properly curtailed by the power of numbers. Religion for a proper aristocracy is not a tool but an apotheosis and self-glorification by the nobility itself, usually restricted to being honored by the aristocracy ("paganism", "imperial cult"). When an aristocracy becomes sedentary and no longer "dynamic", ie the case of the brahmins in India, is when it formulates religion as a method of honing and maintaining instincts and hierarchy without resorting to sheer strength and superiority. The conflict of the Christian Church with the nobility, particularly the Empire (see Frederick II, who was forced by the Pope to kiss his feet after the Pope undermined all of his support), is the biggest evidence of Christianity's general psychological tendency which is in opposition to the other type of religion.

>>20588859
Who the fuck is Russell?

>>20591871
Not him but Stirner was never an anarchist, he never even uses the word anarchism in his book. Voluntary egoism isn't some sort of social movement to abolish the state, it's a completely individualistic philosophy.

>>20594534
In other words: anarchism. The state will never go away and it is intrinsic to nature.

>>20589124
Wtf is voluntary egoism? Do you mean conscious egoism?

>>20589022
>but I certainly see his philosophy as rather naive and childish looking back
The older I am, the more I appreciate Nietzsche's wisdom.

>>20588859
i dislike russel, but those are all valid points

>used by the weak to limit the ambition of the strong.

did nietzsche actually say this? cause this is the stupidest shit i've ever read, although i suppose you could wrangle out of it with a non-standard definition of "strong". but let's be real, if some party is able to limit other party's power, could we say that that first party is weak somehow in relation to the other?