/lit/ - Literature

>>20568625
>>20576643
The last chapter was brutal, the others weren't so bad.

>brute memorize all Latin declensions
>know italian, french, and spanish to varying degrees
>30 minutes and lingua latina and 15 minutes of wheelock's a day
Latin is literally the easiest language I've ever learned

intellegere sese, tametsi pro veteribus Helvetiorum iniuriis populi Romani ab his poenas bello repetisset...

why "ab his"?

>>20576574
No, but it's a language i.e. I know how to learn a second language.
>>20576579
Fixing a Hole:
>Mi riparas truon, per kiu envenis la pluvo
>Kaj malhelpas al la menso vagi
>Tien, kien ĝi volas
>Mi ŝtopas la fendojn, kiuj trapenetris la tutan pordon
>Kaj malhelpis al la menso vagi
>Tien, kien ĝi volas
>Kaj ne gravas vere, ĉu mi pravas, ĉu ne
>Kie mi apartenas, mi pravas
>Kie mi apartenas
>Jen homoj staradas tie, disputadas kaj neniam gajnas
>Kaj demandas sin, kial ili ne povas enveni tra mia pordo
>Mi farbas la ĉambron tre bunte
>Kaj kiam vagas la menso
>Tien ĝi iros
>Malsaĝuloj nur ĉirkaŭkuradas, ili zorgigas min
>Kaj neniam demandas, kial ili ne povas trapasi mian pordon
>Mi uzas nun tempon por pluraj aferoj
>Kiuj ne gravis hieraŭ
>Kaj tamen mi diras
Repeated and non-linguistic portions omitted. This is just a translation of the meaning; if you wanted a singable translation that would take more effort. I'm not sure what the point of this was since you presumably don't speak Esperanto to judge the translation, though.
>>20576582
I wouldn't know, I'm not a man. But what drove me to learn Esperanto was in part the ideal of a neutral second language. How easy it was to learn didn't hurt.
>>20576587
I'll be honest, I'm not good at poetry even in English, and I'm not good at just coming up with something on the spot. But if you suggest a topic and a format (haiku, sonnet, limerick, etc) I could give it a shot.

>>20576674
>I'm not a man
Yes, you are.

>>20576674
>Fixing a Hole
Well, I consneed. I know when I've lost. Well played.

>>20576506
I would have thought that injuries to the Roman people would be dative. I guess I haven't encountered this use of the genitive very often.

>>20576687
Didn't intend any innuendo by the choice of song, I was just looking for one not by Lennon.

>>20576661
The exacted punishment from them: ab his.

Don't despair, Latin learners
>For those who are most truly wise, and whom alone it is right to pronounce happy, have maintained that fortune's favours ought not to be the objects of either fear or desire.

>Now here I used the word cupi: will you tell me whether it should be cupi or cupiri? And I am glad this has come in the way, for I wish you to instruct me in the inflexion of this verb cupio, since, when I compare similar verbs with it, my uncertainty as to the proper inflexion increases. For cupio is like fugio, sapio, jacio, capio; but whether the infinitive mood is fugiri or fugi, sapiri or sapi, I do not know. I might regard jaci and capi as parallel instances answering my question as to the others, were I not afraid lest some grammarian should catch and throw me like a ball in sport wherever he pleased, by reminding me that the form of the supines jactum and captum is different from that found in the other verbs fugitum, cupitum and sapitum. As to these three words, moreover, I am likewise ignorant whether the penultimate is to be pronounced long and with circumflex accent, or without accent and short. I would like to provoke you to write a reasonably long letter. I beg you to let me have what it will take some time to read. For it is far beyond my power to express the pleasure which I find in reading what you write.
St. Augustine to Nebridius

>>20576695
ah of course. I'm retarded, thanks.

>>20576686
I think I know better than you do whether I'm a man or a woman, considering you've never even seen me.

>>20576697
>even native speakers can't master the language

How can I do anything but despair? I'll never attain fluency.

>>20576697
Wait, but he was a native speaker? How?

>>20576700
Do you pass?

>>20576697
Fucking retarded ancients, they should have just acquired the language instead of stressing about grammar and syntax so much.

>>20576700
Doesn't matter, you're a man.

>>20576711
This was when spoken Latin was starting to change significantly from the classical standard, to my understanding, so they were dealing with interference from it.
>>20576714
Much of the time, yes, though it seems to vary by the person.

>>20576718
No, they should have used the downling-ranieri method, you would know all of the things he says as if it were second nature, but i do agree that they are retarded, if you study grammar do it like a man.

>>20576730
>Though it seems to vary by the person
lmao, that means that nearly everyone can identify you as a male, most of them are being polite and/or afraid of social retribution for ""misgendering"" you

>>20576750
It's not rare for strangers to spontaneously call me 'she'. Considering that my daily wear consists of jeans and flannel I'm not sure how they're supposed to guess that I identify as female. I've also had at least one straight boy who expressed interest in me and seemed genuinely surprised when I told him, and wasn't sure if he was interested anymore for a while.

>/clg/ - esperanto, learn latin while you sleep mix tapes, and interviews with trannies

>>20576768
Hey, if everyone was mature, sensible and on-topic it would hardly be 4chan, would it?

>>20576632
Is that a marble boat?

>>20576632
Alma Tadema, extremely based taste OP

A, novum filum linguarum classicarum, iam XX cum nuntiis! Num tantum scribebatur de lingua Latina, vel Graeca? An forsan tandem de aliis linguis raris?
Introeamus in filum et videamus!


> Fixing a Hole
>>I'm not a man
> Yes, you are.
> afraid of social retribution for ""misgendering"" you
> Do you pass?
> Doesn't matter, you're a man.
> my daily wear

>>20576836
Hey, they're the ones who keep bothering and prodding me about it, the least I can do is give accurate information to counter their misconceptions.

>>20576722
Back then being a man meant something... it's not a man, it isn't a woman either, its sex is male though (unless it has some chromosomal condition). And no, genders don't exist, those are just unreal entities that postmodernists (a weird religion-like phenomenon) believe in.

>>20576821
Wow, that's neat. With flutists even.

Here's a recent reconstruction, if someone wants to hear how they might have sounded like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JFa8BZt2B0

>>20576861
The word 'gender' is ambiguous. It can refer to the social roles associated primarily with sex (social gender, gender roles), or it can refer to a person's conception of themself as a man or woman or something else (gender identity), and it probably has some other meaning I'm not thinking of right now.

>>20576821
>>20576870
> The baths were the second to have a public library within the complex. Like other public libraries in Rome, there were two separate and equal sized rooms or buildings; one for Greek language texts and one for Latin language texts.
Take me back, bros.

>>20576875
>social roles associated primarily with sex (social gender, gender roles)
Those are external notions that has nothing to do with individual beliefs.
>>20576875
>can refer to a person's conception of themself as a man or woman or something
Believing that something is something else that it actually is, it's not an identity, it's a mistake, an error, a delusion.
>and it probably has some other meaning I'm not thinking of right now
Excuses from pharmaceutical companies to take profits from them (genital cosmetic surgeries or HRT are quite expensive)

>>20576875
Honestly I don't hate trans people, I just hate the encroaching criminalization/penalization of "misgendering" them. You can entertain whatever fantasies you want, but I oppose the use of coercion to make others affirm those fantasies.

>>20576922
The immediate reason for HRT, SRS etc isn't gender identity; it's gender dysphoria. I would continue to be distressed by the male-typical aspects of my body even if I had a sudden change of worldview and started believing that the claim I'm literally a woman makes no sense; it's probably inborn in many cases.
>>20576949
Nobody wants you to be arrested for misgendering people. You'd be being an asshole, but being an asshole should not be illegal.

>>20576962
>Nobody wants you to be arrested for misgendering people. You'd be being an asshole, but being an asshole should not be illegal.
First of all, that isn't true. There are definitely people who would like that. But it's not just about arrest - people can lose their careers, and in some countries therapists are now compelled to "affirm" a patient's gender delusions, regardless of their professional opinion. That doesn't just mean "stuffy old doctor has to acknowledge the validity of trans identities", that means therapists who can clearly see that a young man is being socially pressured by a peer group into taking up a trans identity MUST support and encourage their "decision", even in the absence of evidence of any dysphoria.

>>20576999
Gatekeeping is almost entirely harmful. There may be a few people who mistakenly think they're trans, but the harm done by gatekeeping people who legitimately are is far greater.

>>20577020
>so what if a few kids who legitimately went through an adolescent phase get pushed into hormonal therapy with life-long side effects, we need to make laws banning medical professionals from trying to prevent this!
that's fucked up. they should work on improving diagnostics, not legislation to ban anyone from trying to help these kids

>>20576962
>I would continue to be distressed by the male-typical aspects of my body
I'm unironically sorry to hear that, but I still don't believe any of the bullshit about sex and gender that it's preached nowadays (which are just a pseudoscientific creed).

>>20577057
If they can find a way that goes more good than harm I'm all for it, but gatekeeping has been almost universally harmful.
>>20577060
What specifically don't you believe? All I'm claiming is that there is something, probably inborn, that's fucked up in my brain such that I am much happier if I take female hormones and am treated as a woman socially. (I know most people will never fully treat a person they perceive to be male as a woman, which is why I'm trying to change my appearance such that people believe me to be female.) This is a claim about the inside of my own brain; I'd think if there's one thing I'm more qualified than you to make a claim about it's that.

I hate the sound of soft g and c in the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, it’s sounds gay as fuck and is probably what turns me off of it. I use Reconstruct classical but I do pronounce v as English /v/, though.

Hi, I'm the guy who always saves the thread from bullshit arguments, I'm back again. All I see is complaining about LLPSI, trannies, & arguments about pronunciation. Let's get back on subject.

1. Old Norse vs Gothic vs Old English. I've extended your life by 3 months so you can learn of these languages that maybe you weren't planning on learning before. Which do you choose and why?

2. Has anyone learned some more obscure ancient languages like Classical Armenian, Old Georgian, Old East Slavic, & Old Church Slavonic?

3. For someone who learned Koine just to read the Bible, recommend 5 secular works written in the dialect that they should add to their TBR.

4. Celtic bros, are you learning Literary Welsh or Classical Gaelic? How comfy are they? I heard Irish grammar is absolute ass and Welsh literature is more extensive than some might think.

5. How close is the Mishnaic Hebrew of the Talmud to the Biblical Hebrew most people learn?

6. Has anyone learned Coptic to read the Nag Hammadi Library? Was it worth it? It's mostly written in the Sahidic dialect, correct?

7. I know Old Tamil has good literature, but there are other Dravidian languages which get referred as "classical" like Telegu, Kannada, & Malayalam. Is this true, do they also have good literature? How much, how old, and which is best besides Tamil if at all?

8. What is the best book for learning Classical Arabic that is written in English?

9. What are your five favorite works written in Sanskrit or Pali?

10. Besides Daniel & Ezra, what else is there to read in Old/Imperial Aramaic? (not Syriac).

>>20577256
Gothic.
I find Goths fascinating and mysterious in their fulgural appearance and sad twilight of antiquity/middle ages, plus I'm curious about east Germanic, plus it sounds kinda cool. https://youtube.com/watch?v=uVKu6LSr9sc
But old Norse would be a close second.
Even though I'm probably not going to learn either.

>>20577297
Me too! I find East Germanic fascinating. If I ever have the time to check it out, I certainly wouldn't mind spending 3 months or so over the summer some time in the future going through an old Gothic primer just for fun.

>>20577256
Old English because of we wuz reasons obviously and it also teaches you a lot about Modern English and gaining that insight is very enlightening because it kind of makes you examine your native language (if EFL) in a way you likely never have before. Also, once you get used to the orthography and the sounds of it, it's nowhere near as hard nor foreign as it may initially seem

>>20577211
What turns me off Is that c sound, it sounds so retarded

It's a me Chesare i cross-a the rubicon-a and conquera the gaula-a!!!!
Fucking ridiculous.

Btw, Is the bible a good begginers book? I understood all of it, but to be fair I have read Genesis in multiple languages.

>>20577256
>Old Norse vs Gothic vs Old English
Which one has better literature? And in general, which modern and old Germanic language has the better literature?

>>20577402
German has the best modern literature besides English. Old Norse has the most medieval literature.

>>20577402
As far as I know Gothic has basically nothing besides Wulfila's Bible.

>>20577256
> 1. Old Norse vs Gothic vs Old English. I've extended your life by 3 months so you can learn of these languages that maybe you weren't planning on learning before. Which do you choose and why?
You just wrote some number, right? It's not actually possible to learn one of these in 3 months? Except maybe Old Norse if you're starting out as a native speaker of Icelandic.

Either way, I would choose Old Norse for having a worthwhile corpus. Gothic has nothing, I'll never understand why someone would learn it.

> 10. Besides Daniel & Ezra, what else is there to read in Old/Imperial Aramaic? (not Syriac).
The Story of Ahikar. And lots and lots of Jewish writings, but I don't know how far removed their language is from Imperial Aramaic.

>>20577429
>Gothic has nothing, I'll never understand why someone would learn it.
To larp as le epic Germanic warrior, presumably. (There actually is a Gothic revival movement.)

>>20577429
>You just wrote some number, right? It's not actually possible to learn one of these in 3 months?
Try not to take it too literally. I just mean a lot of people have a mild interest in these languages, but say they don't have time or it would be a waste of time. So I'm saying if you had more time which would you choose.
> Gothic has nothing, I'll never understand why someone would learn it.
I think it looks cool. Seems like it would be fun to go through a primer just for fun. Not everything has to be utilitarian, but you do you.
>The Story of Ahikar.
This looks cool, I will check it out!

>>20577366
It’s a fairly literal translation of the original bible texts so it isn’t exactly idiomatic Latin, but it’s simple in form with no long, drawn-out clauses and word order is basically as it would be spoken, unlike poetry. It has its own issues but it wouldn’t be a bad supplement for easier reading.

>>20577445
Tolkien was a big proponent of the revival of Gothic.

What should I learn
t. novice in latin

>>20577467
If I'm not mistaken, our longest piece of Gothic text that isn't the Bible is from Tolkien's original poetry that he wrote.

>>20577414
> Old Norse has the most medieval literature.
I don't know, that's hard to believe. There's so, so much stuff in Middle High German. It's just hardly known outside of the German speaking countries, I think, except for some of the big names like the Nibelungen or Parzival.

There's also lots of variety. You have epics like the ones mentioned above or the Dietrichepik; you have religious/philosophical writings like from Meister Eckhart; you have comfy popular works like the Carmina Burana (through parts are in Latin); you have really sweet love poetry from the Minnesänger; and you have the outright insane stuff like the Rosendorn, where a virgin and her vagina
> argue about what it is that men want in a woman: the woman claims that men want for herself and her beauty, whereas the cunt dismisses this, claiming that she is all men really want. The two go different directions to discover the truth; neither is successful, and both are treated badly by the men they meet.

What's true is that the further you go back, the weaker German gets, and I presume Old Norse takes over in output. Forget about Old High German, it's almost as useless as Gothic.

>>20577470
Latin

>>20577507
yeah but my latin practice right now is just reading

>>20577086
>What specifically don't you believe?
I believe all you said in that post: that you feel in a certain way etc. I don't believe all the pseudocientific bullshit about males being women if they feel like so etc. I think that males competing in women sports is nonsense, for example.
I do believe you should try to do everything you can to feel better. But I won't accept any ideological imposition that is illogical or pseudoscientific.

Is there any portuguese lurking here? If yes, could you upload a vocaroo reading some Latin words ending in -m with your natural accent? For example
>cum
>rosam
>Romam
>populum
>senatum
etc

>>20577571
I think that for trans women to compete in women's sports there should at least be a requirement of, say, 2 years on hormones and testosterone levels within a normal female range. (To my understanding that's the requirement for the Olympics; trans women have been allowed to compete there for some years and have yet to dominate the women's events.)

>>20577338
Is Simon Roper a good resource when it comes to old English?

>>20577594
I think they shouldn't.

>>20577594
>>20577603
This has nothing to do with Classical Language learning, fuck off to /b/ or /pol/ or some other retarded shithole. Maybe Reddit is more your tempo.

>>20577603
Why not? Trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics since 2004; you'd think if they were going to dominate the women's events there, they would have by now.
>>20577607
Don't look at me, they started it. I feel obligated to at least give some more accurate information in response to reactionary fearmongering.

>>20577594
Nah, what matters is puberty, there are some things you can't change after puberty even when in hormones, especially skeletally, although I do find hilarious that even with heavy hormonal alterations the male body is still capable of defeating females left and right.

>>20577611
>Don't look at me, they started it.
No one cares. Make a thread on /lgbt/ or wherever and link the other guy there and stop shitting up the thread.

>>20577594
>>20577603
>>20577611
>>20577617
STOP RUINING THE THREAD FUCK OFF

>>20577617
So why haven't trans women dominated the female events in the Olympics when they've had 18 years to do so?

>>20577625
sorry

Are some declensions more common than others? Could i for example skip the fifth or do i have to learn all of them

>>20577648
first, second and third (genitives -ae, -i, -is) are the most common, and adjectives use only those

>>20577648
Fourth and fifth are less common, but there are still some common words that use them so you'll need to know them.

>>20577648
>>20577648
You have to learn them all. The vast majority of words are of the first, second, or third declension, but some of the words in the fourth and fifth are super-common. You'll encounter fourth declension manūs and fifth declension diēs all the time.

>>20577658
> manūs
manus, in the singular

I like how the word for children is liberi
Also how apparently it's a sign of post classical latin to use a non plural form of liberi?
That's kind of strange to me

Thread instantly ruined by dumb tranny making it all about himself and not about classical languages at all. Way to go dude

>>20577732
That's not what I see

>>20577256
Here are some questions actually about classical languages if anyone wants to take a swing.

>>20577854
I'm capable of giving an answer to exactly zero of those questions.

>>20577883
That's okay! What kind of questions would you like to ask?

>>20576632
Við þá hljóðstafi fimm, er áðr váru í látínustafrófi: a, e, ı, o, u, þar hefi ek við gǫrva þessa stafi fjóra, er hér eru ritnir nú:
>ǫ, ę, ø, y.
Ǫ hefir lykkju af ae, en hringinn af oe, því at hann er af þeira hljóði tveggja saman blandinn, kveðinn minnr opnum munni en a, en meirr en o.
Ę er ritinn með lykkju as, en með ǫllum vexti es, sem hann er af þeim tveim samfeldr, minnr opnum munni en a, en meirr en e.
Ø, hann er af hljóði es ok os feldr saman, minnr opnum munni kveðinn en e ok meirr en o, enda ritinn af því með kvisti es ok með osins hring.
Y er af rǫddu ıs ok us gǫrr at einni rǫddu, kveðinn minnr opnum munni en ı ok meirr en u, ok skal af því ina fyrri kvísl af hǫfuðstafs … sem áðr er þeim í stafrófi skipat

>>20577256
>1. OE because muh ancestors, muh Beowulf, muh Tolkein.


Have to get a good grasp of Latin and German first

>>20579179
huh?

>Difficillima saepe facillima sunt.

Wasd I right to translate this as "the most difficult is often the easiest"?

>>20577086
Bro literally just stop watching porn and you won't want to be a woman anymore.

>>20577585
>cum

New rule: no more talking about trannies in this thread. Let's also just ban Esperanto as well just to be safe.

Transexuales interficiendi sunt

LLPSI Read Along Chapter 12

In which, this is where the pain begins

>>20579520
This chapter introduces alot of stuff.

Firstly it introduces the 4th declension for nouns, which are pretty hard compared to the first 3.

It also introduces adjectives and immediately throws 3 declensions of those at you

>>20579526
It also introduces comparatives. The latin equivelent of
big, bigger
fat, fatter
wide, wider,
tall, taller

>>20579528
It also introduces some more ways of using the dative such as in the examples of
Marco (dat) una soror est
and
paret/imperat + dat (though correct me if I'm wrong on that one)

>>20579530
There's also a few words that might bring up confusion such as all the pes and pedes and dux and other military related words. Also illic might stumble you up since it's not actually related to ille

>>20579532
And finally it also introduces you to the Roman three naming systems which isn't really all that important to learn but might confuse you if you're unfamiliar with it.
The Romans had three names, instead of the two that we modern folk have.
Praenomen - first name/personal name
Gens nomen - family/race/clan name
Cognomen - whatever additional name I don't know

And this caused confusion for me because Quintus's praenomen is Quintus, but Julius's praenomen is Lucius even though we've been calling him Julius this whole time, Julius is actually his middle name.

This chapter is the worst chapter

>>20579520
These are great but I haven't been able to keep up. When you have reached the final chapter please consider doing another cycle.

>>20579520
>this is where the pain begins
They are gonna love 13

I'm getting filtered in chapter 2

>>20579549
Ahhh, the good ol' "expectation vs reality"

>>20579549
it's noticeably harder than the first chapter. however when you can overcome it the next few chapters should be very easy

>>20579544
I think the hard part about chapter 13 is the weird roman calender system. It's probably worth learning about that in english first.
>>20579543
Before I began I was personally on around chapter 20-25 so I've been able to go through these quite quickly but I distinctly remember having to spend more than a week on each chapter past chapter 8 or so, and I had to reread each chapter many many times.
I think for a read along targetted towards people starting on chapter 1 as their first readthrough... It was too quick, I'm going to continue at my current plan but in the future if we do this again, going much slower and maybe with added commentary would be a good idea

>>20576632
LLPI sic et non?

>>20579560
I think a big part of learning latin is less about sitting down and trying to figure things out, but instead is more about just spending more time with the forms, getting used to seeming them, and letting your brain process them and become part of your thinking.

>>20579557
I'm stuck on stuff like why are we saying Aemilia is the master of one particular servant and then saying she's the master of a servant and then saying she's the master of two servants and then saying she's the master of multiple servants in the next sentence?
She's the master of multiple female servants in both scenarios

>>20579354
Yes, but since those are both neutral and plural, maybe it would be better to say "The most difficult things/stuff are..."

>>20579560
I think having to re-read through each chapter like 5+ times is just part of LLPSI, on the first read through you don't absorb everything so you have to go back and read it again. Some concepts are more easily understood by reading on ahead to get more exposure to it.
I think a better way wouldn't be to just go through LLPSI slower but to go through it like that other guy was doing where he reads silently.. then reads with comprehension, etc. but not one chapter at all once. in other words, make re-reading part of the read along

>>20579568
Can't remember exactly but maybe to show the differences between singular and plural etc
>domina unae ancillae
>domina duarum ancillarum

>>20579520
>>20579526
>>20579528
>>20579530
>>20579532
>>20579538
Maximus (latinum nomen pro anglico Chad)

>>20579579
It's this
My answer would be Aemilia domina ancillarum est for both because she has 2 servants at least

>>20577585
Asking again for some portubro (or brazilian ofc) to show us the path of nasal vowels/final -m

>>20579600
He's just trying to show how the genitives work, first an example in singular for feminine nouns, then in plural. This kind of repetitions are common in the first chapters (like repeating the same sentence two times but using the passive voice once and the active the other)

>>20579610
So when I answer these questions I'm supposed to not know about the plot?

>>20579616
What questions? The pensa? Exercises are just to practice grammar, you can answer whatever you want imo.
Also those two sentences aren't contradictory.
>--Habesne aliquod animal?
>--Felem habeo
>--Felem tantum?
>--Quoque canem habeo. Enim felem et canem habeo
Both sentences are true.

>>20579685
>aliquod
I'm not sure about the use of aliquod here btw

>tfw went to a classic high school (don't know the proper english term)
>4 years of classical latin and ancient greek
>only spent time smoking weed and chasing pussy
>15 years later I'm a little interested in learning classic languages
>remorse_over_wasted_years.png

Damn
Answering the pensum c makes me realise just how free latin is, so long as the ending is right you can put anything anywhere and it'll make sense
I like latin and cases are interesting
I still should try to put the verb at the end right?

>>20579686
> I'm not sure about the use of aliquod here btw
Why? I think it's fine.

>>20579713
Non ti preoccupai, puoi sempre imperare un'altra lingua. Meglio che in liceo, io direi.

>>20579770
imparare*

>>20579543
Which chapter did you begin to fall behind on?

>>20579553
The jews are at it again I see

Is Lingua Latina per se Illustrata good or not?
I've receive mixed responses.

>>20580141
It's aight

>>20579713
cheer up, I went to a professional high school and thus didn't touch any Latin or Greek whatsoever until around 26, there's always time

>>20580141
Here we go again.
Why don't you just try it?

What's the meaning of cum in the first part? I suppose it is temporal (when) and is correlated with the tum a few lines below (when,,, then,,,). I don't think it makes a lot of sense to consider it means "with".

>>20580141

>>20580185
Also I would read these lines this way instead
>credo ut tum gravis acquiescat ardor tecum lidere; sicut ipsa possem, et [...] !

>>20580185
And, in the second part, ferunt should mean something like they tell or they say.
I had to look a translation for this one.
Am I the only one that thinks that, with a more thorough punctuation, these texts could be way easier to read? I know ancient authors didn't use it and it's probably unnecessary to more experienced readers but still...
>...quam —ferunt— puellae pernici...

>>20580185
>temporal (when) and is correlated with the tum
yup, desiderio meo nitenti should be dative related to carum
guess it doesn't help that sometimes nitenti in place of nitente appears as ablative, plus nitens could also be the participle of nitor

>>20579520
Chapter 12 C qustions

>Num "Marcus" cognomen est?
"Marcus" cognomen eius non est sed "Balbus". "Marcus" praenomen est.
>Quot fratres habet Aemilia?
Aemilia unum frater habet. Et, Aemillius.. quis procul ab ea in castra prope Germaniam.
>Quid agit Aemilius in Germania?
Aemilius in Germania est Germanicos pugnare et patriam suum defendere.
>Quae arma pedes Romanus fert?
Pedes Romanus gladium brevem et scutum et pilumque fert
(not sure if you can put quoque onto accusative like that.)
>Quam longum est pilum Aemilii?
Pilum Aemilii est sex pedes longa. Gladius Aemilii autem brevior modo duo pedes longus.
>Ubi habitant milites Romani?
Milites Romani in Castra habitant.
>Qui sunt Germani et Galli?
Germani sunt barbari qui in Germania habitant et Galli sunt quoque barbari qui in secundo mundo bello facile cedebant.
>Estne Germania provincia Romana?
Germania non provincia Romanorum sed contra Romano et in bello perpetuo.
>Quod flumen Germaniam a Gallia dividit
Rhenus "flumen" (aut "fluvius" appellat?) Germaniam a Gallia dividit.
>Cur hostes castra expugnare non possunt?
A castra Hostibus expugnantur non possunt quia arma bellorum eorum inferior quam arma Romanorum.
>Num miles fortis ab hoste fugit?
Miles fortoirem semper vincis miles debilior
(not sure if 2nd person for vincis is right for "the stronger soldier always defeats...")
>Cur hasta procul jaci non potest?
Hostes hastas jacere procul non possunt quia ea nimis gravis.

>"debit" comes from debeo
nice i love latin

>>20579453
china was about to adopt esperanto as their official language, you know?

>>20580593
>/clg/
do you know what the c stands for?

>>20580618
Latin.

>>20580402
>"your mom" cums from my dick
nice I love your mom

>>20580618
Classical Greek. All discussion about ῥωμαιστί should be removed.

>>20580913
esperanto tranny...

>>20580921
>ῥωμαιστί
>snail letters

Protip: filter the word "tranny" to auto-hide the retard who derails threads

Reading a lot of Vergil and Ovid lately. What's the best textbook introduction to classical latin poetry? I would like to appreciate what I'm reading better, even though I must say this is amazing as it is.

Especially interested in info on recitation.

Multissimas gratias ago

>>20581515
What level are Virgil and Ovid? Can you go into them right after reading LLPSI or is there a list of authors you recommend reading before attempting Virgil and Ovid?

>>20576632
Classical literature is kino

>>20576632
Hate speech

>>20581548
therefore true

>>20581540
My journey was the LLPSI courses, then most of their supplementary material as well. Then some gospels from the vulgate and some Caesar. Probably some small stuff I don't remember in between as well.

I started after about two years of studying latin if that helps you in any way.

Anyhow: I can recommend anybody to just try it out if you're interested. When I got used to his style and got involved in the story, it became very engaging.

If anybody has a recommendation related to my original question, don't be shy.

>>20581515
>>20581598
There's Reading Ovid and Reading Virgil from Peter Jones, which seem to be exactly what you're looking for. I'm planning on reading these myself at some point.

>>20579538
>instead of the two that we modern folk have.
I have three names though.

>>20580185
> daily catullus
Bāsiātus.

But I'm wondering about lines 6-8. Different editions have different variants of that part, but I don't think it matters: Catullus talks about Lesbia here, right (as opposed to in lines 9-10)? So it's her dolor, and her ardor that the bird lessens? But we don't know anything about unrequited love, in her case? Can ardor stand for other feelings besides love? What the fuck was Lesbia's problem? (I suspect this question will come up again).

> Am I the only one that thinks that, with a more thorough punctuation, these texts could be way easier to read?
Sure, but the textual tradition of Catullus has far bigger problems. It's a miracle of scholarship that we can, today, more or less tell what words he used.
For today's poem we don't even know whether those last three lines belong to another poem, for example.

>>20581811
Last part is for >>20580230

>>20581811
>It's a miracle of scholarship
I'm reading about it right now and it seems it's a miracle just how the manuscript survived, too.
I'm reading some other edition and the verses you mention appear in a different order, and with some words changed.

>>20579179
Why would you have to do that?

>>20579449
I literally haven't watched porn in... I'm not even sure how long, months at least, probably over a year. I don't deny autogynephilia exists, but I don't think it's sufficient to explain most trans women's motivations.

>>20579713
The way they would have taught you would have probably sucked anyway. Language teaching in schools is rarely good.

>>20580976
I thought demonyms weren't capitalized in a lot of languages? What's the standard for Classical Greek, anyway, since the ancients didn't have case distinction in letters? Is it just the standard for Modern Greek?

>>20581598
How did you find the Virgil supplement?
I've heard that latin poetry can be quite difficult

Is there a simple rule for how v is pronounced?
I'm watching Luke Ranieri's videos of Familia Romana and in the words fluvius and parvus the v in fluvius sounds like a vowel while in parvus it sounds like v

Fuck man, why is he eliding the ending of Brundisium?
I know there's probably a rule here but I'm too fucking lazy to work out Latin pronunciation

>>20582687
>I'm watching Luke Ranieri's videos
He's a geologist, not a linguist so you are learning an unnatural pronunciation which he made up himself.

If you are attempting a Classical pronunciation, then is (w) between vowels or at the start of a sentence preceding a vowel. Then it's a (u) in between consonants or after another vowel before a consonant.

>>20582687
>>20582706
This is the problem with Latin being dead in academic circles: amateurs fill the void and language learners gravitate to whatever mediocre and non-peer reviewed conjecture they find on the internet and determine it's validity based on the amount of views and clicks it gets.

>>20582706
final -um was actually a nasalized u, you don't pronounce the m

>>20582709
>>20582727
So you'd suggest I listen to Hans Orberg's recordings instead?
He was a professional linguist and recited Familia Romana in both Classical and Ecclesiastical Latin but perhaps the Reconstructed Classical reconstruction has become better understood since then
My problem was that his recording is quite old, it's hard to hear vowel length, he doesn't use elision and he speaks quite fast in parts
Also he pronounces the v in fluvius and parvus the same, for words like Iulii he pronounces the ii as two vowels while Luke seems to blend them together
>>20582749
Ah shit that'd make a lot of sense
Yeah I'm fucking terrible at hearing nasalised vowels
Thanks anon

>>20582769
>So you'd suggest I listen to Hans Orberg's recordings instead?
Sure, just put words in my mouth. That's a great way to start a discussion with me. The fact that he is not a linguist concerns me because of his own reconstructions which as I said, are not peer-reviewed by other linguists. This is not about recordings. He does a fantastic job of pronouncing things exactly as they are supposed to be - in a system that he invented just like he did in Greek.

>>20582781
I'm going to put another thing in your mouth

>>20582769
there's nothing really "bad" about Ranieri's pronunciation for a beginner, maybe he drags the vowels too much precisely to help learners distinguish the long and short sounds better, and same could be said about open and closed vowels, but you could then adjust your way around it e.g open less or more

>>20582781
Could you show me where his pronunciation system differs from the current academic consensus on classical reconstruction?
Also which videos are you specifically referring to when you talk about his invented pronunciation system?
It's a bit confusing because he released videos in the past discussing how he thinks Latin should be pronounced but he's now edited the video info to say that he now promotes the Calabrese system which he says is based on the work of Dr. Andrea Calabrese
Was it just that his older recitations were based on his own invented system and now they're based on the work of a professional linguist?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8E5RKq31I
This is the video where he talks about the Calabrese system, is this his invented system?
What was the system that he uses in these videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zt19wzsW-c
>>20582821
Sure but this anon is saying that he's invented his own system which is a red flag for me
And yeah, I'm trying to drag my vowels out in order to cement the distinction in my mind atm
Idk why but his new recitation of Familia Romana doesn't really distinguish between them that obviously from what I can hear

>>20582837
>Sure but this anon is saying that he's invented his own system which is a red flag for me
I don't think he did, he DID invent his own system for sure when it comes to Greek, but for Latin I'm fairly positive he's basically following Sydney Allen's reconstructed classical pronunciation

>>20582845
The post you answered contains a link to a video contradicting your claim you're "fairly positive" about

>>20582845
>>20582938
Yeah in his recent video where he proclaims the Calabrese system as being the best he says Sidney Allen's reconstruction was good but he disagrees about the usage of /J/ and /ʊ/
Can you tell whether he's using these vowels in his Old version of Familia Romana?
I don't have a great ear for phonology

>>20582938
I knew he talked about the Calabrese system as well but usually he keeps mentioning Sydney Allen when it comes to answering how to pronunce stuff in the reconstructed pronunciation. In any case it's not some custom made fictitious pronunciation like the Lucian one he created for Greek for convenience, these are attempts at the actual sounds Romans made in the classical era as close as within the limits of what can actually be said about it, since not every single sound is certain down to the tone.

anything pertaining to bald faggot should be banned from these threads

>>20582837
>Calabrese system
Never heard of it and google search just links to Reddit people fanboying over it because they saw it on YouTube.
>Sidney Allen
He says himself that he disagrees with Sidney Allen. Idk about you, but I would side with a Geologist who dubs Disney songs in Latin over an actual linguistic academic.

>>20583370
How do you know what Luke promotes as his 'invented reconstruction' if you haven't watched his videos where he explains his ideas on how Latin should be pronounced?
If you've watched some of his recitation videos and think that it's wrong then you should be able to clearly identify where he differs from the academic consensus instead of just constantly attacking his credentials

Anyway, if you watched the video where he talks about the Calabrese system then it's obvious that the Calabrese system refers to the vowels which Andrea Calabrese, a professor of linguistics at the university of Connecticut believes that Latin had during the Classical era and which Luke believes is a persuasive argument
Where do you believe the most trustworthy information about Latin reconstruction comes from?
Clearly we can't just accept Sidney Allen's reconstruction of Latin as gospel

There will never be a proven 100% authentic pronunciation model of Latin, since we don’t have a time machine and linguistics can only take us so far. It’s sad that we waste so much time on what’s perfectly correct when there is not one person in the world today who actually knows with 100% certainty what Latin sounded like. You literally cannot refute this point. Why can’t there be some international conference to decide what it will be and leave it at that? Our ideal of what it best sounded like was from a very small group of elites for about 150 years time, so obviously things change.

>>20583429
Well I'm not an academic linguist who's an expert in pronunciation reconstruction so I wouldn't really be able to say one way or the other

>>20583421
>you haven't watched his videos where he explains his ideas on how Latin should be pronounced
Never said I hadn't seen his videos. Why do his fans always feel the need to lie about the opposition to make a point?
> instead of just constantly attacking his credentials
Funny because you responded by listing Calabrese's credentials as an appeal to authority in response. Which is it? Do credentials matter or not? Either way is fine with me, but make up your mind.
>Clearly we can't just accept Sidney Allen's reconstruction of Latin as gospel
I don't give a fuck about Sydney Allen. The reconstruction is not exactly revolutionary, it's pretty standard for the past 150 years or so.
>Luke believes is a persuasive argument
Actually Luke makes videos where he states that it is the correct pronunciation and says things like "we know that Latin sounded like-" as opposed to saying "a new convention that literally no institution of higher learning has bothered to adopt claims that Latin sounded like-".

You and I both know that a lot of monolingual people type "how to learn Latin" into YouTube and click on the first video that pops up and take it as authoritative. He has capitalized on this and made bank while promoting his fringe ideas, which have no professional adoption in any respectable school, presenting them as undisputed facts that "we" agree on, whoever the fuck "we" is. He says that in every Latin video where he mentions pronunciation: "WE know know that-".

>>20583479
So you've watched his videos and you were just acting as if you didn't know what the Calibrese system as Luke uses it was?
Why?
You're talking about how he invented a system for latin yet haven't seen the video where he explains what it is?
Which videos have you seen? Could you explain to me where his 'invented' system differs from that of the reconstructions by professional linguists? Otherwise I don't get what the fuck is the point of your comments
My point about the credentials is that you've said nothing substantive except 'Luke invented his own reconstruction' and 'Luke is a geologist not a professional linguist'
Tell me, whose reconstruction do you find most persuasive? Yes I believe that we should believe professional linguists who've done all the hard work in analysing the history of Romance languages and textual evidence, which is why I'm defending Luke from your inane attacks by showing that he gets his information from professional linguists, he isn't just inventing it as you claim he has
Are you just sceptical of the whole endeavour of reconstructing pronunciation? If so just tell people that instead of wasting their time
The other anon claimed that Luke did in fact invent a reconstruction for Greek but that he didn't for Latin, maybe you're just confused about that?
Also firstly Luke is doing great work by promoting learning Latin, by making content in Latin and by promoting the work of linguists in reconstructions of classical Latin pronunciation (which you haven't demonstrated are fringe yet)
So yes, it's a great thing that his videos are coming up and he deserves to make money for it

>>20583530
>So you've watched his videos and you were just acting as if you didn't know what the Calibrese system as Luke uses it was?
I said I had never heard of it outside of his videos or people talking about his videos. When I tried to google it for furthering reading, all that comes up is fucking Reddit.
>You're talking about how he invented a system for latin yet haven't seen the video where he explains what it is?
I guess you're just a fucking retard who can't read so this will be my last reply to your tranny ass.
>Are you just sceptical of the whole endeavour of reconstructing pronunciation? If so just tell people that instead of wasting their time
Instead of thinking outloud and parodying my position, why don't you give me your own fucking opinion and respond to my points.
>(which you haven't demonstrated are fringe yet
Yes I did. I said there is no documentation publicly available anywhere outside of his videos and no institution of higher learning uses this method, nor does any modern textbook. If you're bibliography just links back to r*ddit, then it's fringe.
>So yes, it's a great thing that his videos are coming up and he deserves to make money for it
Go worship your bald god faggot. I'm going to sleep and you aren't actually addressing what I said, just putting words in my mouth and saying I didn't watch anything since I came away with a different opinion than you.

>>20577470
English

What is koine good for outside the Bible?

>>20577020
Trans stuff asside gatekeeping has always been almost entirely good. We need gates. I don't care if I'm off topic that the biggest bull I've heard today.

>>20583971
I asked this earlier here: >>20577256
but people would rather defend the bald man's honor or argue about the ethics of the tranny lifestyle. See above.

graece discere volo ut homerem propria lingua legam sed ne latine quidem legere possum.

quid faciam?

Started the subjunctive today, are these answers on the right track?

>Nuntium mittit ut cives moneat: He sends a message to warn the citizens.
>Legio mittitur ne oppidum ab hostibus capiatur: A legion was sent so that the enemy do not capture the town
>Centum milites praemittimus ut castra muniant: We send 100 soldiers ahead to fortify the camp.

>>20583997
You didn't ask, you dared them to conjour 5 koine works. If they learnt koine for the bible why would they know of any other koine works to reccomend let alone secular ones.

>>20584177
You are retarded. I was asking to recommending 5 secular works for someone who learned Koine just for the Bible and was looking for other things to read. Go be a faggot and start an argument somewhere else bitch boy. You literally see everything as some kind of challenge.
>For someone who learned Koine just to read the Bible, recommend 5 secular works written in the dialect that they should add to their TBR.
FOR SOMEONE who learned Koine just to read the Bible, RECOMMEND 5 secular works written in the dialect.

Idiot.

>>20584121
Yes, except the second one should be present tense. All the subjunctives are good though

Is the paperback reprint of A Latin Dictionary decent quality or is it just print on demand garbage?

>>20583971
>>20583997
Epictetus
Polybius
Plutarch
Galen
Apostolic Fathers
Pausanias
Corpus Hermeticum
Arguably Apollodorus and Lucian
List goes on. Koine is essentially evolved Attic. There are lots of works written in it in all sorts of subjects.
>>20584260
dont be a faggot

>>20584298
It is commonly referred to as Lewis & Short or L&S, should stick with that from now on
Seems like reviews vary on it. Looks to me like print on demand. I would go for a used hardcover, they are not hard to find. Check out Abebooks, there are plenty.
Check out the publisher for any book you buy on amazon or wherever. The paperback L&S publisher is "Nigel Gourlay (May 23, 2020)" which screams print-on-demand but might not be. The photo of the book in the reviews doesn't look too well, seems small in length and width but thick. You don't want a chode dictionary.
That said you can get a free L&S app for your phone as well. Cassell's is cheaper in store.

>>20584331
Yeah I know it's published by that guy, that's why I asked since I've seen it recommended here
Some of them can be decent quality though, if it's decent paper + not just a print of a scan of the dictionary I'd want to buy one

>>20584349
Amazon has a 'look inside' feature, click on the picture of the cover. Text seems really cramped to me
If you really want it then go for it, it is cheap. I would seek out a used hardcover. I got burned on a paperback Middle Liddell before and will never buy a reprint paperback dictionary again.

just buy cassell's when you're a scrub and oxford once you're a pro

>>20584308
And Longus! Daphnis and Chloe is so comfy.

>>20584260
>demands higher quality discussion
>makes posts like this
good to see some februaryfags never left the general

So how much would it cost me to print out a pdf of cassells?

>>20584477
Mine is close to 900 pages. You can buy a brand new hardcover for $30 or used ones for half that.
Even if you printed it at home the cost of paper, ink and toner would probably be more and then you'd have to bind it somehow.

Can anyone recommend a good Old English dictionary? I like to have a physical one but I'll use a pdf if need be

>>20584260
Ousted yourself fag. Don't be all high and mighty when you don't even have standard comprehension of your own posts. Fuck trannies.

>>20584308
Thanks man. I'll check these out once I polish up my Attic.

>>20584477
Just buy a used cassell's dictionary if you're poor

>>20584072
discere graecum sermonem et oblivisci paulum quod noscis de latino

>>20583997
>but people would rather defend the bald man's honor or argue about the ethics of the tranny lifestyle. See above.
si tamen hoc facerent latine! (aut qualicumque alia lingua classica)

hello based department?

>>20584856
freewill faggots BTFO

>>20584856
The virgin
> Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari

The chad
> Ego enim pecuniam solvere nolo: ergo solvere non possum

III. fletus passeris Lesbiae

Lugete, o Veneres Cupidinesque,
et quantum est hominum venustiorum:
passer mortuus est meae puellae,
passer, deliciae meae puellae,
quem plus illa oculis suis amabat.
nam mellitus erat suamque norat
ipsam tam bene quam puella matrem,
nec sese a gremio illius movebat,
sed circumsiliens modo huc modo illuc
ad solam dominam usque pipiabat.
qui nunc it per iter tenebricosum
illuc, unde negant redire quemquam.
at vobis male sit, malae tenebrae
Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis:
tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis
o factum male! o miselle passer!
tua nunc opera meae puellae
flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli.

>>20584933
>norat
short form for noverat (nosco)
>quantum est hominum venustiorum
I don't think I quite get this part (I suppose he's referring to all men with aesthetic sensibility or something like that?)

>>20584963
> I suppose he's referring to all men with aesthetic sensibility or something like that?
Exactly.

>>20584933
CHAD, these are extremely helpful when trying something more advanced.

>>20583429
We can't be completely certain about every last articulatory detail, but we have a pretty good idea about the major points.

>>20583990
I was talking about the specific context of trans healthcare. And people have been gatekept from it for all kinds of bullshit reasons.

This general is doomed if jannies don’t finally step up and clean up the trans talk. They should, because it’s off-topic not just for the thread, but even for the board.

>>20583558
https://andrea-calabrese.uconn.edu/publications/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xA73h_R647YZf7fp8saeRAP68x6qHa2U/view
just take a look at his article and decide by yourself if it's good or not

>>20585210
This is actually true. These narcissists insane enough to think them being a woman is reality just invite more trannies and discussion becomes about trannies.

>>20585210
I agree. Unless it is done in latin or something, ofc. In that case it could be considered writing practice.

>>20585210
one demented troon comes in and shits up the entire thread with talk of mental illness and esperanto. There were a few threads recently in which he did not appear and they were much, much better

>>20585256
The fault is ours for taking the bait.

poem beat, fellas. just 3 minutes.
https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=b7oggieb9N8

If helpful Anon is still around how are my subjunctives going the other way?

>We send them to find the way: Eos mittimus ut viam reperiat.
>You are sent that the enemy may not make an attack on the city: Tu mittitur ne hostes impetum in urbe faciant.
>The soldiers are led out of the camp that a line of battle may be drawn up: Milites e castro ducuntur ut aciem instruat.
>He fights to defend himself: Is pugnat ut se defendat.

>>20585612
>mittitur
3rd person, should be second
>aciem instruat.
This reads as 'he draws up a battle line.' 'Be drawn up' requires the passive and acies to be nominative
Aside from those you seem to have the subjunctive down well enough. I suggest doing some review on person and voice though.

>>20585667
Thanks a lot Anon.

If we are going to talk about trannies then let's at least make it related to classical language. Here is a story.

Olim gallina stulta et superba pennas pavonum in terra invenit. His pennis se adornavit et dixit, "Nunc pulchra sum! Certe nunc pavones pulchrae me accipient!" Deinde gallina suum genus contempsit et se iunxit ad pulchras pavones.

Pavones autem pennas impudentis gallinae eripiunt et eam rostris fugant his verbis: "Gallina eras et es et semper eris!"

Misera gallina ad suum genus redire temptavit sed etiam hae eam reppulerunt. Una ex gallinis dixit, "Natura nobis locum dedit. Tu autem tuo loco non contenta fuisti. Pennae pavonem non faciunt!"

>>20586039
Gallus autem dehinc alias gallinas spernebat, quia species in eo magnam cupidinem gallinae alienis pennis exornatae excitavit.
Pennas denuo repertas ei dedit, ac brevi uxorem duxit. Illa nocte gallina demum se beatam esse existimabat, sub suo Magno. Nigro. Gallo.

>>20586039
Lepida haec fabula. Sed prava est, et prave dixistis. "Gallina" verbum humanum est, non res naturalis. Gallina est quod homini dicunt gallinam esse. Ista gallina pennas sumpsit et se adornavit. Id contra natura non est; enim quod est contra natura, non potest fieri, quia natura est lex. Verbi gratia, bestia photosynthesin agens contra natura esset, etenim nullum animal hoc agit.
Nemo nihilumve contra natura agere potest, impossibile id est pro definitione.
Alias aves gallinam appetiverunt non pro iustitia (neque naturali neque divina), sed pro humana arrogantia (ne pro arrogantia aviarum quidem!), quam homini prave iustitiam veram esse putant, et "iustitia" ista non est necessarie bona aut recta aut vera aut aeterna, ut confirmatur ab hominis ipsis, qui sese pugnant interficiuntque, et omnes semper iusti se esse censent.

>>20586494
At gallina illa mortem sibi conscivit paulo post. Id etiam lex naturalis est.

>>20586039
>If we are going to talk about trannies then let's at least make it related to classical language
Or we could just not. Is abortion debate allowed to if it's done in Sumerian?

>>20586609
Yes, surely.

>>20586039
διέτριψα χρόνον τινὰ τόνδε τὸν μῦθον ἀττικιστὶ μεταφέρειν

πάλαι ποτὲ ἀλεκτρυών τις ἀσύνετός τε καὶ αὐθάδης πτερ' ηὗρε χάμαι ταών· τοἷσδε κοσμουμένη 'λεγεν «καλλίστη νῦν εἰμὶ 'γώ! δήπου γε οἱ εὐειδεῖς ταῴ μ'ἀσπάσονται!» εἶτα καταφρονῶν τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ γένους προσέθετο τοῖς εὐειδέσι ταῴς

οἱ δὲ ταῲ ἀποσπῶντες τὰ τῆς ἀναιδοῦς ἀλεκτρυόνος πτερὰ ἐς φυγὴν καθέστησαν αὐτὴν τάδε τὰ ῥήματα ἀμειψάμενοι· «ἀλεκτρυὼν ἦν τε καί εἰσί τε καὶ ἀεὶ ἔσται!»

ἡ ἀθυμὼν πειρωμένη ἐπανιέναι πρὸς τὸ ἑαυτοῦ γένος ἀπεώσθη· ἔλεγέ τις τῶν ἀλεκτρυόνων «πεφύκαμεν φύσει οὕτως· σὺ δὲ οὐκ ἤσθη τῷδε τῷ γένει· πτερὰ μηδαμῇ φύουσι ταών!»

>>20586290
>sub suo Magno. Nigro. Gallo.
Haec gallina, crassa erat? Aut in patrem suum habebat odium? Aut opium ei placebat?

>>20586609
It's just writing practice, does it really matter what one writes about?

>>20586609
unironically yes

>>20586609
> Or we could just not. Is abortion debate allowed to if it's done in Sumerian?
אַשְׁרֵי נִפֵּץ עֹלָלִים אֶל־הַסָּלַע

>>20586625
>ἀλεκτρυὼν ἦν τε καί εἰσί τε καὶ ἀεὶ ἔσται!
*ἦσθα, εἶ, ἔσῃ
>σὺ δὲ οὐκ ἤσθη
*ἥσθης

>>20586631
> Aut opium ei placebat?
Cui non placet opium?

>>20586838
Mihi. Iam satis merdam assumpsi cum universitatem frequentarem.

EGO VOLO ______ AEMILIA

>>20586948
>EGO VOLO ______ AEMILIA
FUTUEREEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>20586953
ungrammatical

>>20586957
Cur? Num futuere Iulium mavis? (aut futui ab Iulio?)

>>20587017
"Volo futuere AmiliaM" scribere oportet, aut verbum quod ablativum accipit, ut uti: "Volo uti Amilia".

>>20587052
sed tantum futuere aemiliam volebam ut grammaticam neglexerim
(I have no idea if this one is correct, can I use tantum and ut like that?)

>>20587304
Looks right to me.

>>20587320
gratias amice

How is the Wheelock Reader?
Worth buying as someone who's doing LLPSI?

>>20587356
you can download it from op

>>20587356
>>20587356
It's easier than Roma Aeterna for follow up material.

>>20584856
veni vidi keki

Just finished chapter 5 and I'm excited also I know it's bad but I sometimes skip the exercises because I just want to learn and read more Latin.
I'm thinking about making an Anki deck but I figure I could make them sentence cards instead? Anyone done this? Any suggestions on how?
Also this may be a dumb thought but I was thinking that once you get to a more intermediate level you could start making sentence cards using text from the Oxford Latin Dictionary.

>>20587650
you can make both at once really, for Greek I did like so, each side of the card has a noun/verb/adjective/etc... and an example phrase containing the latter
e.g
bonus, bona, bonum
Iulius bonum habet canem
and then on the other side the meaning of bonus and a translation of the phrase
it's a hassle but it's also an exercise in of itself

Where are all the Greek readers? I only ever see Latin, yet nobody studying Greek. I just want other Greek anons to talk to about ancient Greek with to help me learn and foster understanding since my teachers are abysmal and have spent 60%+ of the year on strike

>>20588322
Im too intimidated by Greek to try to learn it

>>20588322
I’ve been at it for years, but I still don’t think my Latin is good enough to move on to Greek.

>>20588389
It's not like a progression in a videogame, you can start with Greek. Knowing Latin won't implicitly help you except with a few words being a bit similar

>>20588426
I think he is more worried about doing them at the same time and having too much on his plate.

>>20588426
I don’t view Latin as a prerequisite for Greek. I just don’t think I can focus on both at the same time. It’s all ultimately pointless and just a way to pass the time.
>>20588529
This is closer to what I mean. Moving on to a new language feels too much like giving up.

>>20588548
I would say drop Latin and stick with Greek. Everything worth reading is in Greek anyway.

>>20588563
Like what?

I saw the tranny bitching above. Good rightward trend, you don't want this to become a reddit shithole. A chan shithole's already bad enough.

>>20588322
I've been studying it for a while. Already past the point of getting filtered by grammar but still too dumb to really discuss anything of substance.
I guess we could recommend easy post-beginner texts to each other if that would help anyone. I got filtered by On the Murder of Eratosthenes and the excerpts from Anabasis from my textbook so I started translating Plato's Ion which I found manageable. I recently found out that book 1 of Anabasis is much much easier compared to the rest of the work so that might be my next goal. Other easy texts I've seen recommended are Daphnis and Chloe and the Libraries of Apollodorus and Diodorus Siculus. A couple of threads back an anon recommended an extensive reading approach so I've been also using Reading Greek and Athenaze as graded readers.

>>20588727
>Like what?
All the most important works of the western canon.
The second sentence is so insane and has nothing to do with the post you are responding to that I have no idea what to make of it.

>>20588784
Greek presence in the western canon is still the minority.
They're already available in English. It makes sense to learn Greek for recitative beauty in poetry, translational issues, or accuracy in philosophy.

Anything else is already translated, which is why people scoff at the idea of learning Greek for anything but specialized work. The Jews were right to kill classical studies.

Is there an obvious guide to when something is Roman versus Latin?
Is it just letters and words that are Latin?

>>20588727
I don't want to write a long post, basically I will suggest looking at a list of Greek philosophers vs Roman ones, and you will just see the Roman ones are usually not real philosophers, Greeks anyway, or Christians

Yes, lots of trannies and redditors on this board. Have you tried learning any Greek?

>>20588774
>Already past the point of getting filtered by grammar
I want to ask how, but like I said, the teachers were on strike for the entire 2nd semester (not exaggerating) and then for about 2/3rds of the last semester. Only for the 1st semester were they not on strike, and basically this was spent memorizing basic things like the alphabet, and other basic things which I've probably not even remembered.
>we could recommend easy post-beginner texts
I would have no idea where to start with this
>an anon recommended an extensive reading approach
How do you get to the point where it doesn't take you 30 minutes to translate a single paragraph? I don't even remember what dictates the word order, I'm getting filtered because of greedy pseud academics

>>20588856
Which textbook are you using?

>>20588858
Both of the Reading Greek textbooks from Cambridge

>>20588824
>Greek presence in the western canon is still the minority
There may already be a greater number of anglo writers put in there by other anglo writers but the fact remains that no other poet has been more influential than Homer and the same goes for philosophy with Plato.
Your favourite writer's favourite writer was Greek.

>>20588844
I hope this is a bot, because if not then you are hopelessly retarded

>>20588856
>How do you get to the point where it doesn't take you 30 minutes to translate a single paragraph?
Take the 30 minutes if that is what it takes, then do it every day for at least an hour a day. Speed comes with practice

>>20588866
I do this, but I still find myself unable to wrap my head around the way verbs work and other things that are basically introductory.

>>20588856
>>20588860
Reading Greek is good because you probably won't get as filtered as I did with contractions. Also the texts are well enough written that they won't kill your motivation.
Remember that learning Greek is a very slow process and you have to spend around 4-6 months with just the grammar before you can really find any use for the skills you have acquired. My advice is to make an Anki card out of every word you don't know and reread the paragraph/sentence/word over and over again until you can say without lying to yourself that you understand what's being said. Rereading chapters you have already translated is one of the most effective ways to learn and remember the grammar and vocabulary.

>>20588322
>>20588322
I'm a midwit therefore I stick to Latin

>>20588874
restudy everything. Start from the first chapter. Go slow and make sure you understand everything.
Do the same with another textbook as well. I recommend Mastronarde - Introduction to Attic Greek. Go slowly, comprehend, do all the exercises.
Look at Athenaze as well. Read through every chapter.
At the same time keep translation, at least one passage a day.
All the above and Reading Greek are in the Mega. You have tons of resources at your disposal. Don't get discouraged by setbacks or slow pacing. Maybe another explanation or more practice will make it all click.

>>20588887
Trying to learn Greek gives that midwit feel

>>20588884
>learning Greek is a very slow process and you have to spend around 4-6 months with just the grammar before you can really find any use for the skills you have acquired
well, the issue with this is that I have exams in August on Greek, and the lecturers have spent two thirds of the year on strike while just sending out periodic emails of "just read pages 50-60 for this week in the textbook!" I think my problem is that, I don't have some sort of well formatted glossary/dictionary that allows me to look up the words I need in a fast way, I have to resort to Wiktionary. I also find it difficult to remember all the various case endings off by heart and don't really know how the verbs work.

>>20588896
I'll start from the first chapter of both Reading Greek books. Do you have them yourself and are you proficient at all? (by which I mean do you know more than a 1st year classicist)
I do 1 translation a day, but often I have to resort to Wiktionary for verbs and there are a lot of things I just don't get. The slow pacing doesn't feel like a setback, but unfortunately I just haven't encountered that explanation that makes it "click" and feel lost, I don't even know anyone from my course that I can talk to because of corona distance learning

>>20588844
Latin was originally the language of the Latium, the region where Rome is.
If I'm not mistaken, Latin is usually used in regard to stuff related to the language, Roman to stuff related to the city (citizenship, politics etc.)

>>20588910
Thank you very much anon

>>20588899
>Do you have them yourself
pdfs that I have read parts of here and there
>are you proficient at all?
I have a BA in Classics. For the past few years I have been reading mostly Latin and my Greek is rusty but most of the rust is vocabulary.
There are a few posters here who are quite educated in Greek and more fluent than me. If you have questions ask away.
If your main problem is vocabulary that is to be expected, study more vocab. If it is grammar and verb forms you really need to get those down pat before moving on. Knowing conjugations by heart is crucial and will save you a ton of time. Where are you in your textbook and what does your exam cover?

>>20588899
>Trying to learn Greek gives that midwit feel
No thanks I alreday have enough of that feel daily kek
I'll probably try someday (I really want), but for now I want to really improve my Latin (still a fucking beginner). I also started to learn German so I already have more than enough

>>20588911
I'm sorry people were mean to you. It's okay to ask questions. The alphabet is sometimes interchangeably referred to as the Roman Alphabet and the Latin Alphabet, so maybe that can be confusing for people.

>>20588915
>my Greek is rusty but most of the rust is vocabulary
I feel like vocabulary is easier to forget but also easier to pick up, especially in comparison to the rules
>If you have questions ask away.
I don't even know where to start. I want to ask something like, what is an easier way to remember/familiarize oneself with the cases? But besides from knowing what they are technically, I usually have to double check what they are in a word. I don't just "know"
For example with nouns, is the subject always nominative case, and the object always the accusative case?
How the hell do I familiarize myself with verbs?
>If your main problem is vocabulary that is to be expected
In a way it is, but I feel like I can at least check what a word is using a dictionary
>If it is grammar and verb forms you really need to get those down pat before moving on
That's what I'm struggling with
>Where are you in your textbook and what does your exam cover?
In the textbook I'm in the first 50-100 pages of both
The exam covers quite a lot, I could post some of the previous exam questions, but for some reason my university insists on having baffling questions that seem out of place for beginners

>>20588938
>besides from knowing what they are technically, I usually have to double check what they are in a word. I don't just "know"
This is the problem, and it is not entirely your fault. Schools do an atrocious job of teaching language, particularly American ones.
For the forms you have to memorize them. Practice writing them out, make flashcards, etc. There aren't that many for nouns and adjectives. Verbs are more complex but there aren't so many in the first few chapters.
As to their use and function in a sentence that is something you have to think about and intuitively understand.
Nominative - Subject
Accusative - Direct Object
Dative - Indirect Object
Genitive - Possessive (of, 's)
There are more uses for the cases, especially genitive, but I think that is the gist of the first 100 pages of Reading Greek.
Do you get the basic functions of each case and what they mean in English? For example
>I(subject) gave(verb) a ball(direct object) to my son(indirect object)?
or
>my friend's(possessive) wife

LLPSI Read Along Chapter 13

This chapter is not as hard as the previous chapter but watching this video will help you understand the weird calender system mentioned in the chapter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6dU98dXhkA
It's not necessary that you understand it, just that you are aware roughly what it's like so that you can focus on the grammar, which is what we're all here for.

>>20589130
In the previous chapter there was a new use of the dative in "Marco una soror est"
I have since discovered this is the "dative of possession"
and you can learn about it more in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdkvv7kcIVE
as it is used somewhat in this current chapter

>>20589138
but anyway, this chapter introduces the 5th noun declension as well as superlatives.
Superlatives are the latin equivelent of "most/greatest"
big, bigger, BIGGEST
long, longer, LONGEST
hard, harder, HARDEST

>>20589140
Other than that I have a question I want to ask:

In this chapter there seems to be a great deal of ablative use. Am I correct in thinking that "in" is being omitted in many sentences? For example:
>Aemilia: "Antiquis temporibus Martius non tertiss sed.."
Would that otherwise be
>Aemilia: "In Antiquis temporibus Martius non tertius sed.."
?

>>20589147
Also one other thing to note, it's not mentioned in the calender video, but in the chapter, the first hour of the day is when the sun rises.. around 6am.
So while meridiem for us is the 12th hour in the day, for them it is the 6th hour.

>>20589147
>"in" is being omitted in many sentences
Yes
Ablatives are found without prepositions much more often than with.
Don't get used to automatically supplying 'in'. It could be a whole host of other concepts, 'with', 'by' etc. as well as being utilized with verbs and adjectives. Pay attention to the context

Since this one is longer, we're reading only half today.

The hardest part of this part is the "negat negare..." imo (which I couldn't figure it out by myself ToT)
Paraphrase (by me, so it may be worong):
>et phasellus negat maria hoc negare
>and the boat denies that the seas deny this (that he was the fastest)

>litus Hadriatici minacis
>ubi iste —post phasellus— antea fuit silva
I liked a lot this part: the sibilum of the last verses is the sound that the wind does when goes through the trees (comā), it must be a windy place because this hill (iugum) is called loquens.

>>20589079
Yeah, the people who were supposed to be teaching me kept going on strike over pay. It's a British university

Can word order just be anything at all? Such as if I was translating English into Greek

>>20589182
>comā
disregard the ā
Also, is Propontida a singular accusative, and does it goes with Thraciam?

>>20589130
>>20589138
>>20589140
>>20589147
>>20589152
CHAD

Jesus Christ, I guess I'm not using Reading Greek lmao
Will stick with Athenaze

>>20589159
Ah I see, I've heard alot of latin is like that. words that are obvious by the context get omitted

>>20577585
I'm Portuguese but this nasalized -m in Latin sounds gay as shit. I've always read it as a hard -m. Where does it say that it should be nasalized?

>>20589273
Prosody. Final -m was elided and the last vowel made a synalephe with the next word if it started by vowel.
Maybe it wasn't exactly as portuguese but it wasn't a hard m either.

>>20589306
Can someone tell me if this could be considered correct? This is how final -n and -m are usually pronounced in my Romance dialect. I think it's some sort of /ŋ/, not a nasal vowel.
https://voca.ro/13MQ4aB1RWRq

>>20589130
C Questions

>Quot sunt menses anni?
In anno sunt duodecim menses.
A Januario ad Decembrem unus annus est.
>A quo Januarius nomen habet?
Januario nomen est a Jano.
>Quam longus est mensis Aprilis?
Dei Aprilis triginta dies est.
>A quo mensis Julius nomen habet?
Julius mensis nominatur Julio Caesere.
>Cur mensis decimus October nominatur?
Antiquo tempore, October nomen est quia mensis octavus. Nunc illum mensem Augustus est.
>Cur Luna non tam clare est quam sol?
Lux Lunae suae non potest sed a sole illustratur, igitur ipse clarior quam sol non potest.
>Qui dies anni brevissimus est?
Die brevissimus est A D VIII Kal Jan, vel viginti unus Decembris.
>Qui dies aequinoctia dicuntur?
Aestate aequinoctium est AD VIII Kal Apr, vel viginti sex Martii, et Hiemis aequincotium est A D VIII Kal Oct, vel viginti quinque Septembris.
>Quod tempus anni calidissimum est?
Aestatas dies calidissima.
>Quando nix de nubibus cadit?
Nix de nubibus cadit Hieme.
>Quid est imber?
Imber est aquae quam a nubibus cadit.
>A quo die incipit annus novus?
Kalendae Januario novus annus dicitur.

I didn't like how most of the questions focussed on the actual content of the chapter, requiring me to take notes on which days are the hottest, which days the equinox is on, but it is what it is.

>>20589182
> The hardest part of this part is the "negat negare..." imo (which I couldn't figure it out by myself ToT)
> Paraphrase (by me, so it may be worong):
>>et phasellus negat maria hoc negare
>>and the boat denies that the seas deny this (that he was the fastest)
I'm also not entirely sure about that part.
I don't think "hoc" refers to "(that he was the fastest)": the ship needs to negate was follows, not what came before.
Also, "minācis" is a singular genitive adjective, "Hādriāticī" should be a singular genitive adjective as well, so they refer to an implicit "maris". This genitive, "minācis maris Hādriāticī", is probably the 'owner' of "hoc":
>> et hoc negat minācis Hādriāticī
> and [the boat] denies that of the threatening Adriatic [sea]
>> negāre lītus īnsulāsve Cȳcladas
> denying [of reaching] coast or the Cycladic islands

>>20589217
>>comā
> disregard the ā
I agree, the ā is not metrically required: many line endings here rely on brevis in longō.

> Also, is Propontida a singular accusative, and does it goes with Thraciam?
I was wondering about this as well (and about a few more things in the poem's other half).
It seems that other editions just have "Thracia", without m. Thomson says that this refers not to the land "Thrācia", but to the wind "Thrāciās", so I guess this is supposed to be an ablative?
>> horridamque Thrāciā Propontida
> and the rugged, by the Thracian (wind), Propontida

>>20588862
1 Homer's works may not have been the work of one person
2 If you simply go by influential locus, you might as well say the Bible is the most influential work with poetry
3 Shakespeare is the most influential historically verifiable poet. He has living relatives today.

>>20589217
looks like it is a Greek-like alternative accusative since Propontis is a direct Greek third declension borrowing with accusative in -ida, probably does go with Thaciam

>>20590065
But if Propontida is the accusative of sea's name, and Thraciam of the country's, I don't see how it makes sense to combine them in this way. If Catullus wanted to describe one in terms of the other, he would have chosen some adjective like Thracica.

Thomsons explanation I've mentioned above >>20590012
seems better to me.

>>20589182
raw quick attempt plus ESL, no bully
This one Phasellus, which you now observe, fellow guests, says that he's very much faster than any boat, that no rowing of any rower is he incapable of surpassing, whether it were appropriate to rush through the waves with oars or with wind.
and he denies that the menacing Adriatic prohibits him the shores and islands of the Cyclades, the noble Rhodes, the horrid Propontic Thrace or the harsh Pontic gulf, where once a leafy orchard stood before phaselus; for in the Cytorian ridge the leafy vegetation often whistled in tongue(??)

>>20588844
"Roman letters" and "Latin letters" are basically synonyms in modern usage.

>>20588856
>How do you get to the point where it doesn't take you 30 minutes to translate a single paragraph?
The best thing would be to start with an approach that focuses on comprehending the Greek directly as Greek rather than translating it. Even quick, skilled 'deciphering' is slower and more painful than actually reading.

>>20590096
are you saying an ablative in -ā of a first declension adjective Propontidus, -a, -um?
wouldn't make much sense imho considering that Latin borrows Greek names almost always preserving the declension, so as an adjective it would still end up being in -is, Propontidis, with ablative not in -a in any case, while a Greek-like accusative in place of -dem is believable imho

>>20589208
Word order has pragmatic meaning. I don't know of any way to learn it except by lots of reading.

>>20590012
>I'm also not entirely sure about that part.
>I don't think "hoc" refers to "(that he was the fastest)": the ship needs to negate was follows, not what came before.
>Also, "minācis" is a singular genitive adjective, "Hādriāticī" should be a singular genitive adjective as well, so they refer to an implicit "maris". This genitive, "minācis maris Hādriāticī", is probably the 'owner' of "hoc":
I think minacis hadriatici goes with litus. litus (acc. n.) and all the accusatives that follows are the subject of negare imo.
>The ships deny that [all these things] deny that (that he was the fastest).

>>20590034
>1
Doesn't change my original point. The works attributed to Homer went on to influence every other famous poet.
>2
You mean another work that was originally written in Greek?
>3
Not outside the anglosphere. Who do you think influenced Shakespeare?

>>20590129
This is getting a bit confusing.

First, I thought that the poster I replied to (you?) claimed that both "Thraciam" and "Propontida" were accusative nouns. But he didn't really say that, I see now.
So you're saying "Thraciam" is an accusative noun, and "Propontida" is the accusative adjective that goes with it? That I can understand, even though it's a bit strange semantically. Like saying "the Adriatic Italy": is there any other? Both of these seas are not even encompassing their respective country.

Thomson prints "Thracia" instead of "Thraciam", and he says it refers to the wind, not to the land. The "horridam" would then modify the noun "Propontida", and the ablative "Thracia" would be the reason for why it is so:
>> horridamque Thrāciā Propontida
> and the rugged, by the Thracian (wind), Propontida

>>20590204
> litus (acc. n.) and all the accusatives that follows are the subject of negare imo.
I can't get my brain to parse it your way, but I can't tell you why. Maybe if I try again later.

>>20590247
You're retarded tranny
The main poetic parts of the Bible were Hebrew
All of Europe was heavily influenced by Shakespeare. Even France and Russia have statutes of his characters in public areas. No other author has this influence.

>>20590311
Shakespeare has more influence because he's alluded to more than Homer. If Homer had an earlier presence, it's been heavily diluted at this point.

>>20590311
Yeah, isn't the NT mostly in dumbed-down GSL Greek?

>>20590333
>trying to misdirect despite saying >Doesn't change my original point
stupid tranny

>>20590311
That's great but you don't speak any classical languages so why are you posting here?

>>20590340
What? I'm not disagreeing with you.

>>20590352
Nobody here does. The door's right there anon

Does someone have Marcus Aurelius "Meditations" in Latin? For some reason i'm not able to find it

>>20590400
It wasn't written in Latin, it was written in Koine Greek. The Latin text would be just as much a translation as one in English (or whatever your native language may be.) You should either read it in Greek or just read it in your native language.

>>20590392
Cope. Who comes to a classical languages thread to talk about how useless knowing Greek is?

>>20590420
Smart people do. Guess what you are?

Cope. Not even worth another (You)

>>20590468
Yet you replied because you know I'm right. You're just over-invested in classical studies and are afraid to admit that you wasted your time, like most classical studiers.

Me paenitet prave latine meum

Aliquando eras cum janus caesar necatur esset?

ego eram apud me garum bibendum cum tabellarium venisset

"janus mortuum es"

"nec"

et vos????????

>>20589182
La barca aquella que veis, huéspedes,
dice que fue la más rápida de las naves,
y que el impulso de ningún otro madero
podía adelantarlo, tanto si con remos
o con vela teníase que volar.
Y niega que esto nieguen [Y afirma que ésto pueden afirmar...]
la costa del Adriático amenazador o las islas Cycladas,
la noble Rodas o la hirsuta Tracia
propóntida, o el cruel golfo del Ponto,
donde éste —después nave— antes fue
frondosa selva; de hecho en el locuaz monte
Cytorio a menudo emitió silbidos la fronda.

Quel fasello che vedete, ospiti,
afferma che fu la più veloce delle navi,
e che lo slancio di nessun'altra imbarcazione
potette mai superarlo, né se coi remi
né se colla vela volare occorresse.
E nega che ciò neghino [E afferma che ciò possono affermare]
il lido del Adriatico minaccioso o le isole Cyclade,
la nobile Rode o l'incolta Tracia propontida,
o la truce insenatura pontica,
dove codesto —quindi imbarcazione— prima fu
folta selva, infatti sul sonoro colle Cytorio
spesso fischi emise questa fronde.

>>20590281
>I can't get my brain to parse it your way, but I can't tell you why. Maybe if I try again later.
If you can read a romance language
>>20590507
these are my translations

>>20590515
Thanks, I can read the Italian one, it's just that the Latin word order seems so disjoint.

I think my main problem is with the "hoc", because it's next to "negat", even though in your interpretation it belongs to "negare". Moving it there helps:
> Et negat minācis Hādriāticī hoc negāre lītus īnsulāsve Cȳcladas

>>20590606
I think it's possible to render almost the same word order in Italian, too
>e ciò nega che neghino il lido del minaccioso Adriatico o le isole Cyclade etc
I may be wrong but I think it makes sense to read it like that

>>20590281
it was my first reply on this topic
>Like saying "the Adriatic Italy"
well it can make sense no? to use an adjective referring to a sea to essentially talk about a certain part of a country that said sea touches
the "Propontic Thrace" would then basically roughly refer to pic related, no?
but that being said I could also see the translation with Thraciā(wind) as correct if it's indeed an alternative text

言者不如知者默,此語吾聞於老君。
若道老君是知者,緣何自著五千文。
白居易
"Who say, don't know, and those who know don't say- a saying from Lao-tzu, or so I've heard
But if the great Lao-tzu was one who knows, why'd he himself compose five thousand words?"
-Bai Juyi
(Translation mine)
What are some of your favorite pieces of poetry in Classical Chinese?

>>20590670
> well it can make sense no?
Yes. Looking around, it seems this point is still being discussed, with argument like "a traveler by sea wouldn't have seen the land Thrace as rugged".
I'd say we've come as close to understanding this part as we can hope to, regardless which of the two interpretations one picks.

>>20590658
Something clicked, now I don't even know what my problem was.
Maybe the fact that both the subject and the object of "negare" are in the accusative (because of indirect speech) and not in the order one would expect? Doesn't matter.

Thanks everyone.

>>20590842
Lao-tzu BTFO

Novum fīlum:
>>20590988
>>20590988
>>20590988
>>20590988
>>20590988