/lit/ - Literature

>Dostoevsky thread
>op is a new fag Redditor with onions tendencies
many such cases. fuck off or lurk until you turn 18

le sad russian guy

>>20572533
>jesus christ gave absolute and righteous rules that can not be twisted in any way
>no nevermind history those werent real christians
>real christians believe what i want them to believe in the name of jesus
christcucks were desperate in he late 1800s

>>20572533
Reading some Dostoevsky TONIGHT because of this thread.
CHRIST IS KING
GOD HAS RISEN
BLESS US ALL

>>20572572
don't forget to turn the other cheek and suck a nigger's dick
Yeshua is Rabbi-- I mean Jesus is king goy, haha

I'm thinking of doing a Raskolnikov lads

>>20572589
You thinking about homosexual interracial acts doesn't make me a fag, it makes you a fag.

>>20572589
Go back to /pol/. This is a Jewish board

>>20572618
keyed

>be zoomer
>see eceleb recommend Dostoevsky
>look him up on Wikipedia
>”Christian? Uhh that’s pretty cringe and jewpilled, better go tell /lit/“

>>20572568
You need to take meds

>>20572636
>Christoid
>telling others to take meds

>>20572533
Call of the Crocodile by F Gardner

>>20572533

>>20572634
pretty much but I am not a zoomer

>>20572540
Go back christcuck

>>20572572
imagine worshipping a rabbi

>>20572601
It's your choice, but you can never imagine the pain off the guilt unless you don't feel guilt

no, there are no alternatives. Dostoevsky is the greatest slavic literature of all time. Don't troll yourself out of reading him because you want to sneer on 4chan. If you need to, just tell us you won't read him but then secretly read him for yourself.

>>20572533
>Any alternatives
r/atheism

>>20572533
Fuck Dostochudski.

I need a chud edit of Dosto.

>>20572868
>/lit/ in 2022

>>20572756
if it means I get a Sonya gf then it is all worth it

>>20572868
keyed

>>20572533
>Any alternatives?
Yeah, stop being a fag.

>>20572666
True, you're clearly a toddler.

>>20572533
Try Tolstoy
>Takes the good parts of Christianity
>Is so based the Russian Church excommunicates him
Absolute legend

My favorite thing about Christfags is how easy they are to bait

>>20572533
Read Brother's Karamazov, it's a pretty compelling book in its own right, but it also presents a great argument in support of Christian morality over non-religious/atheistic morality (that honestly believing in Christian, objective moral values always results in a good and virtuous lifestyle, whereas having an objectively-amoral mindset always results in destruction of oneself and others, and hatred), which honestly completely predicted the depravity that would arise in Russia after 1917 and anti-religious atheism was enforced and practiced by the government. We can see how Russia is now as a society, as a massive (and tragic) validation of Dostoevsky's philosophy as a Christian.

>>20572533
Dostoyevsky was a great psychologist. I’m not Christian, I disagree with most of his beliefs, but he’s still one of my favorite writers

>>20572533
>>20573771
mods just baby sit and coddle you because you can't handle the banter back

when Christians troll you, you cry to mods immediately and mods actually ban them for it

Atheists just cant cope with the fact that the best novels ever are all written by Christians.

What is atheists best author? Hemingcuck?

>>20572533
Yes. Got a problem?

>>20573982
Holy based

>>20572533
You will always be abnormal

>>20573848
The most evil acts are always done under the supposed endorsement of "God". Secular morals are the only pathway to truly decreasing suffering, religion has, and always will, be a friend to suffering, not to those who suffer.

>>20573960
>>20573982
Christcucks are literally delusional, it's almost too easy to rattle them.

>>20573981
Orwell was one of the greatest novelists of all time and he was an avowed atheist

>>20574055
>The most evil acts are always done under the supposed endorsement of "God"
You're delusion. Religious violence constitutes the VAST MINORITY of overal violence in human history. Most wars and group conflicts were fought over greed, a desire to expand and steal. Most criminals today do not believe in a God, visit your local prison and talk to some niggers and see how Godly they are. They're all atheists in belief and in practice. Look at the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, the CIA, look at all those CEOs of those immoral companies like Lockheed Martin, and every single American Bank, Nestle, so on. They're all atheists, or even pagans who worship money (specifically all those wall street guys who deal only FTDs). Look at the fucking state of Latin America, all their organized gangs. Look at the state of Africa, all their wars. Look at the international global drug trade. People worship cocaine over Christ. Look at the international human trafficking. As it's always been, men worship money over Christ, to their own destruction. Pull your head out of your ass and look at hte world you fucking kid. All of modern suffering, from individual violence from criminals to societal violence, is largely caused by atheists. Saudi Arabia's religious police have nothing on Mexican cartels. India's rising religious-based authoritarianism feeding islamophobia, has nothing on China's atheistic authoritaianism and their fucking muslim concentration camps. Every single genocide from atleast the 20th to the 21st century have been at the hands of godless atheists. But oooh nooo mega churches and retarded blind-believing retarded american christians do the most damage of all! Retard.

>>20574088
No. He was an atheist Christian.

> Somehow, he wrote in June 1945, just before the publication of Animal Farm, the religious attitude to life must be restored. Christian thinkers were right to believe ‘that if our civilisation does not regenerate itself, it is likely to perish — and they may be right in adding that, at least in Europe, its moral code must be based on Christian principles’. In his view, Christianity was at once necessary and unbelievable, a contradiction

> In his will Orwell had left directions that he should be buried according to the rites of the Church of England. Of course no one was better qualified to appreciate the beauty of the Book of Common Prayer; nevertheless the request surprised some of his admirers. A funeral was duly held at Christ Church in Albany Street; and David Astor, responsible for the arrangements, asked if his friend’s body might be interred in a country churchyard, at Sutton Courtenay, in Berkshire.

> There was, however, a hitch. One of the churchwardens at Sutton Courtenay, a farmer, seemed doubtful that permission should be given. Had this fellow Orwell, or Blair, or whatever, really been a sound Christian? Fortunately the vicar had the inspired idea of showing the agricultural churchwarden a copy of Animal Farm. It was a title which instantly removed all scruples.

> As Orwell had once scribbled:

A happy vicar I might have been
Two hundred years ago,
To preach upon eternal doom
And watch my walnuts grow.
But born, alas, in an evil time,
I missed that pleasant haven,
For hair has grown on my upper lip
And the clergy are all clean-shaven.

>>20574122
Please excuse my spelling mistakes, I'm taking a big shit in the bathroom right now and my PC keyboard is wobbling on my legs

>>20574122
Every Nazi soldier had "Gott Mit Uns" engraved on their belt buckle, every Nazi officer swore his allegiance to the Fuhrer "in God's name". Hell, even George W Bush claimed the war in Iraq was called for by God. All things said and done, the worst people will do the worst they can, the best people will do the best they can, but to get good people to do evil, one must invoke God.

>>20574167
And did those Nazis read the bible, follow Christ? People like to SAY they are men of God, but as Aristotle pointed out long ago, its your actions that define you. Words are mere words. This is a discussion of the actions of the godly and the godless, not what their words.

>>20572868
>>20572533
YWNBAW

>>20574174
One of the main reasons the holocaust could happen was that the Catholic Church itself had been preaching anti-semitism from the pulpit for decades. It was official Church doctrine that the Jews, collectively, had the blood of Christ on them and their children, that they were guilty of the most heinous crime imaginable, deicide. This sentiment was widespread in Germany prior to the Nazis taking power.

>>20572601
You never go full retard

>>20572845
Nice catch anon, how much does that sense beast weight?

>>20574191
You don’t understand. The Holocaust was committed by the 1.5%.

>>20574191
It wasn't the Catholic Church that created all those concentration camps and ordered the holocaust to happen, it was the Nazi government. Nor were the people running the concentration and labour camps Christian bishops and priests, they were all atheist Nazi soldiers. And Antisemitism isn't an exclusive feature of the Catholic Church, the Nazi officials themselves were antisemites and they weren't even Christians. And Jesus was a jew.

>>20574191
And they were right

>>20574214
>Duuh they must be Christians because they identified as such!
Being a "Christian Nazi" is like being an "atheist Christian". The Nazi ideology is extremely anti-Christian.

>>20574214
>>20574233
I mean shit, if you looked at your own fuckin' Wikipedia page properly you would have found:
>Nazism wanted to transform the subjective consciousness of the German people – its attitudes, values and mentalities – into a single-minded, obedient "national community". The Nazis believed that they would therefore have to replace class, religious and regional allegiances.[15]
>Persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany followed the Nazi takeover. Hitler moved quickly to eliminate Political Catholicism
>Clergy, nuns, and lay leaders were targeted, with thousands of arrests over the ensuing years
Note: the Nazis didn't persecute those "Christians" who accepted Nazi ideology; though as I've stated earlier, they are mutually exclusive beliefs. Such "nazi Christians" are not Christians at all. Why?
>Nazi ideology could not accept an autonomous establishment whose legitimacy did not spring from the government. It desired the subordination of the church to the state
>It desired the subordination of the church to the state
Nazis worshipped Hitler and the Nazi party before they worshipped Christ and the Lord. Truly a wicked people. And, outside of the Nazi party, I adhere to Kierkegaard's general belief that most "Christians" who claim themselves as such are not Christians at all. Naturally, perhaps a very small percentage of "Christians" actually follow Christ in all their heart

>>20574226
> Armstrong, a former nun, thus portrays the Holocaust, or Shoah, as the result of “modern scientific racism” and the erosion of the traditional religious notion of “the sacredness of every single human” Aside from the obvious fact that the racism of the Nazis and their fascist allies was pseudoscientific rather than scientific, Armstrong ignores the fact that religions, including Christianity, traditionally tended to view only the lives of the members of their own group as sacred, while the members of other religious groups were typically seen as subhuman or demonic and, thus, eminently killable (Munson 2005). Armstrong also ignores the extensive scholarly literature demonstrating that many churches either enthusiastically supported the regimes that carried out the mass murder of the Jews, or at the very least, did not publicly condemn them (Ericksen and Heschel 1999a; Paldiel 2006). She ignores the fact that many of the regimes that helped Nazi Germany carry out the mass murder of the Jews had an explicitly Christian orientation (Feldman et al. 2008; Paldiel 2006). She ignores the extensive scholarly literature demonstrating that
the line between racial and religious antisemitism was often a porous and malleable one (Heschel 2011; Kertzer 2001). Additionally, she ignores the fact that close to two millennia of Christian demonization of the Jew encouraged Europe’s Christians to accept Nazi demonization of the Jew (Bergen 1996, p. 191). This is not to say that traditional Christian hostility toward the Jew entailed the Holocaust. It did not, but it certainly helped make it possible.

I think we can say if that Nazis were Christian the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened, but at the same time, the Holocaust wouldn’t have been possible if not for 2000 years of Christianity being hateful to the same people.

>>20574249
>the Holocaust wouldn’t have been possible if not for 2000 years of Christianity being hateful to the same people.
Fair point, you're right about that. During the medieval age the line between church, Christianity, and those kingdoms/governments the church had influence over, became blurred. Influences and values mingled and mixed. Thus the Catholic Church as a whole slowly became less about Christ and God and more about power for its own sake or for the sake of pleasure, even. Fat help all those atheists did in those 2000 years, though.

>>20574233
No it isn't.

>>20574066
I'm not even a christian and damn you're insufferable.
Hope you die very soon to experience the Pascal's wager.

>>20574294
You're pict related.

>>20574226
Oh right, it was just the Catholic Church who signed an agreement with Hitler to support him in power and which celebrated his birthday every year from the pulpit

>>20574233
>>20574246
Hitler explicitly wrote in Mein Kampf that he was doing the work of the Christian God. He was overtly Christian in his public persona and had an alliance with the Catholic Church which supported his regime. Nazi Germany was a nation which was DEEPLY Christian. To say otherwise is cope of the highest order.

>>20574302
>Pascal's wager.
The wager where you have to pick one belief system out of millions of potential options and hope the one you picked will satisfy a capricious, mean spirited, jealous, tyrant of a God who would rather have you grovel on your knees in slave morality than to honestly pursue truth and goodness to the best of your ability? Yeah, I thought so.

>>20574383
>Make something dumb up
>Accuse other people of believing it
>Call them retards
Atheists are the most insufferable religious zealots

>>20572533
>Any alternatives?
Start with the Greeks. I don't know why you people just won't.

>>20572636
>>20572658
>>20572845
>>20573982
>>20573991

Ah yes, the elaborate argument of the Yahweh worshipper

>>20574167
I'm sick of reading this banal non-argument. Yes, so what? It dates back to official military use in 1701, and was used continuously up until 1945. What sort of absurdity is it to try and claim that this is somehow a definitive proof that national socialists were implicitly, or explicitly, Christian? This change was not directly implemented by Hitler at all.
You mention the oath, which again, was not personally written by Hitler and is just an altered version of the oath pre-1919 that was to the Kaiser. "So help me God" and its variations are a standard motif in oaths in Europe, it was absolutely not a direct choice by Hitler himself.
The national socialist elite were not Christian, at all.

>>20574191
Except the Holocaust did not happen and when push came to shove, Catholics overwhelmingly opposed national socialism because they are cucks
>>20574122
You are unbelievable amounts of onions, I wish every day that the national socialists had won so that people like you wouldn't be here
>>20574294
Yes it is
>>20574378
>He was overtly Christian in his public persona
You should've stopped here, because you are aware that in private he was the opposite
>had an alliance with the Catholic Church
The same one whose political party he dissolved and which tried to assassinate him repeatedly?
>Nazi Germany was a nation which was DEEPLY Christian
Religious attitudes of the masses are irrelevant when Hitler and the leadership planned to completely replace Christianity in the future and only utilised it for political purposes

>>20572533
kys

>>20575291
>Start with the Greeks. I don't know why you people just won't.

Because the Greeks are boring as shit.

>>20572868
Gem

>>20575511
then why the FUCK are you on this board, why the fuck are you even reading books, and why are you trying to larp as an intellectual or reader at all, you fucking dense ADHD dimwit pseud?

>>20574302
>Pascal’s Wager
Finally a man who speaks sense
Now get on your knees and praise Lord Buddha’s name

>>20572658
Gotta respect his mass

>>20575655
love me books
'ate pretentious larpers
'ate stale ancient drivel

Simple as.

>>20572533
I am an atheist and The Brothers Karamazov might be the best book I've read.
If you are interested in atheism or moral truths, you will find out that religion and the utility of religion are big themes in this book. It's not just Christan propaganda. The book is full of interesting interactions between the timid protagonist (FEELING), his brother (PASSION) and the oldest brother (THINKING/REASON) who just published an intellectual work about/against religion. Dostoevsky provides really strong cases for atheism through the character of the oldest brother, where characters are having trouble to refute his ideas.

>>20574302
>>20575680
Pascal's Wager is the dumbest idea that still exists, even theists know this, kys

>>20575751
kys nigger

>>20573981
Hemingway believed in God at night

>>20575800
>Pascal's Wager is the dumbest idea that still exists
Not true. It makes sense.

>>20575812
1/2

Here's a few of the things that can be said about Pascal's Wager:

>The wager assumes that belief is more important or more virtuous in some way than honest inquiry.

>Wagering on the existence of God betrays a tacit realization that the logical and evidentiary arguments designed to support the God hypothesis cannot withstand scrutiny, and simply fail to demonstrate anything convincingly much less conclusively, thereby conceding disbelief rational. But the point of the wager is to establish disbelief irrational.

>The wager is incapable of demonstrating the truth of any biblical claim, such as the penalty for unbelief.

>The wager is no help to us in identifying which God exists; or how many gods exist; or whether any gods continue to exist; or whether there exists a personal God worthy of our worship, etc.

>The wager ignores the possibility that a God exists who does not want to be worshiped, or who values intellectual integrity more than blind faith. If such a God existed, who would send people to hell for worshiping him, or for believing in him without evidence, then the atheist would be far better off than the theist in this case.

>The wager ignores the possibility that a god from a competing religion might exist, such as the God of Islam, who threatens eternal damnation for anyone claiming that God has a son. Surely the atheist is no worse off than the Christian if such were to be the case.

>The wager assumes that we can always choose our beliefs and simply takes for granted that God would not be able to detect insincere belief. If you cannot force yourself to believe that 1 + 1 = 3, or that the earth is flat, or that you'll fail to hit the ground after jumping out of a plane, then there is no reason to believe that you could force yourself to believe in gods or other mythical creatures you have no reason to believe in either. If the inventor of hell really exists, and is endowed with omniscience, then he'll see right through any pretense of belief and it's off to hell with you!

>The wager assumes that the chances of God existing are equal to the chances of his not existing. But if the chances of God existing are almost zero, as atheists believe, the wager is likely to persuade only those who already believe.

>>20575812
Explain please

>>20575812
2/2
>The wager incorrectly assumes that there is no cost associated with false beliefs. It is no secret that devout Christians often sacrifice significant portions of their income or savings by making tithes or
donations to churches and other ministries. But if these institutions are in fact spreading lies, then these funds would be much better served by aiding some charitable organization that is making a real difference in the lives of the needy and less fortunate. There was also a time when people sacrificed their finest animals, their food, their possessions, and in some cases, even their own children to the gods. Surely it cannot be argued in these cases that belief came at no significant cost. There is also a considerable investment of time involved in living the Christian life: reading the Bible daily; daily prayer or meditation; attending church services; participation in some form of ministry unrelated to alleviating suffering, etc. If Christianity is a lie, then this time could have been better spent learning something useful, or in helping to make the world a better place for everyone, or in simply spending more time with your loved ones. There is also the issue of inter-family conflicts which often arise when one member of the family simply can't get themselves to believe in myths or fairy tales. This often invokes a believing parent or sibling to disown one of their own family members and curse the day they were born. If Christianity is a lie, then this is too huge a price to pay for belief in my estimation. Many Christians interpret the Bible to mean that they should abstain from certain potentially life-saving medical procedures. Others interpret the Bible to mean that they should abstain from certain pleasures that life has to offer that have the potential to greatly enrich their experience of life in general. Perhaps the worst cost of all is that of intellectual honesty. Attempting to force oneself to believe the unbelievable--not because evidence warrants the belief, but due to threats of undesirable consequences for unbelief--is to sacrifice one of the greatest of human virtues: integrity.

>Pascal’s Wager is not concerned with what is true, but in how chance may be of service to an otherwise unjustifiable belief. But most people who champion the use of 'chance' in deciding whether or not to believe in God usually mock or disdain the role that chance plays in the development of species through random genetic mutations which are seized upon by all living organisms in order to exploit environmental conditions, giving them a better chance to successfully reproduce more of their genes. If chance isn't good enough to explain the biodiversity we see on this planet, then why should it be good enough to elicit a belief in the existence of something far greater than the powers of random genetic mutation?

>>20575751
>pretentious larpers
like who, Plato?
>stale ancient drivel
stale yet you haven't read a single word of it?

you are a dimwit low IQ shitskin physically, and a nigger spiritually, stop larping as someone interested in reading so you can boast to your zoomer shitskin discord friends

>>20575863
>like who, Plato?
No, like you.

>you haven't read a single word of it?
Of course I have. How else would I be able to form an opinion?

Why don't you tell me why you enjoy the Greeks so much instead of just seething about my opinion?

>>20572533
i'm not a christian at all but generally the way dostoevsky handles religion/morality is very nuanced
ivans speech to aloysha in TBK about the suffering of children is probably the most brutal attack on christian morality i've ever read, and aloysha representing the christian view can't even begin to refute it
>answer me: imagine that you yourself are building the edifice of human destiny with the object of making people happy in the finale, of giving them peace and rest at last, but for that you must inevitably and unavoidably torture just one tiny creature, that same child who was beating her chest with her little fist, and raise your edifice on the foundation of her unrequited tears - would you agree to be the architect on such conditions?
>And can you admit the idea that the people for whom you are building would agree to accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child, and having accepted it, to remain forever happy?

>>20572533
>Dostoyevsky is mentioned
>thread turns into a theology debate
The current state of /lit/

>>20575949
How am I a larper? Because I've read a book and you're too much of a dimwit pseud to even read one?
>Of course I have. How else would I be able to form an opinion?
By copying the other fags on here who are too ADHD to read a book and just repeat generalized platitudes and soundbites they've copied from other people
>Why don't you tell me why you enjoy the Greeks so much instead of just seething about my opinion?
Why don't you tell me why they're "boring" since you've read them? Go on, point to who and tell me why exactly they are boring, if you don't you've conceded to me that you're braindead

>>20575291
>anti-semetic
>holocaust denial
>responding with extreme condescension

Uniornically neck yourself faggot

>>20572533
How did you finish highschool without reading Dostoevsky?

>>20577030
cry me a river kike

>>20575812
The wager assumes that God allows and approves of cynical, disingenuous bet hedging instead of an individual staying true and honest and saying "I simply do not have enough to believe" instead of "if I claim I believe I might get a reward". The wager is one of the most insulting and petty devices ever conceived.

>>20575291
>"Guys, guys, the holocaust only happened because of ATHEIST NAZIS"
>"Well, yeah, okay, the vast majority of Nazi Germany was Christian, and yeah, okay the Church approved of Hitler's anti-semitism, and yeah the Church celebrated Hitler's birthday every year, and yeah Nazi soldiers were almost all believing Christians, and yeah Church doctrine contains condemnation of the Jews for killing Christ but... but... it was atheism!"
Pathetic

>>20572589
That's the pope, Dostoevsky was not Catholic

>>20572618
It isn’t you insufferable faggot

>>20572533
he is Christian anti-Christian (anti-Catholic anti-West - this latter is starting to be present with American fundamentalists these day)
>alternatives
Turgenjev

>>20572533
Don't be an idiot. You don't have to agree with everything about someone before reading their work. You can still learn something and gain wisdom, even if it's just an understanding of Dostoevsky and your opinion on him.

>>20575511
Exactly, I couldn’t even find one bit about foreskins, soon as I switched to the bible I was reading about them in every 2nd book

>>20572658
meddl loide

>>20577682
foreskins are the work of the devil goy

>>20574055
>always
You are too sure because you don't think too much.

>>20574055
What about a simple rape and murder?