/lit/ - Literature

>>20571709
bruh you fell for the /lit/cel meme. Nietshit is unironically worthless. Marx outdid him in nearly every analysis of philosophy's shortcomings, as did subsequent sociologists and aestheticians and everything else. This aids-ridden freak went mad for a reason - it was worthless drivel the entire time. Skip this guy, you're wasting your time.

>>20571732
Marx was Jewish, a Zionist and a Rothschild agent. There's no way he out did anyone.

>>20571737
meds, unironically.

>>20571755
get gassed, uironically.

>>20571773
>seething so hard he misses the 'n'.

oh no no no...

>>20571709
Nope, if Zarathustra is your first book from Nietzsche then put it aside and try getting into "more user-friendly" writings like "The Antichrist", "Beyond Good and Evil", "On the genealogy of morals".

>>20571709
The midwit painting

>>20571732
>nietzsche
>everything is....le will to power!
>marx
>everything is...le profit motive!
Have none of these fags ever heard the term "multiple causes"

>>20571879
You've never read Marx in your life, that much is obvious. He didn't reduce the world to 'profit motive'. Rather, profit motive is an effect of a materially organized society, as is our philosophic ideas but expressions of our particular material circumstances. Nietshit couldn't grasp this latter so his 'analyses' were always half-baked, rambling and, ultimately, inferior. Marxism is, as Fredric Jameson rightly says, the 'untranscendable horizon' when it comes to analysis.

>>20571919
>materially organized society
Lmfao marxists actually think this means something. Why are you guys so reluctant to talk about central banks btw?

>>20571919
Fuck Marx. He was Jewish. I don't care what NEET kike said. I don't listen to kikes or Rothschilds. Communists aren't even people.

>>20571942
>Morality, religion, metaphysics, all the rest of ideology and their corresponding forms of consciousness, thus no longer retain the semblance of independence. They have no history, no development; but men, developing their material production and their material intercourse, alter, along with this their real existence, their thinking and the products of their thinking.

Refute him. Pro tip: you can't.

>>20572002
Marx was a Jew speaking Kabbalic non-sense. That's enough to refute him. He's dead and irrelevant, just like you'll be pretty soon after you 41%.

>>20572002
Here you go: material developments and intellectual developments influence each other in feedback loops.

>>20572010
Well that was an easy. Can't say I expected more from a sexless nazi though kek.

>>20571709
You need to familiarize yourself a bit with some of his ideas first

>>20571737
GO BACK

>>20572021
THat's not a refutation, you're conceding the first part. Only, you can't substantiate the second half of that claim. Care to divulge how thoughts can 'influence' the material organization of a society? silly nigga

>>20572031
Yeah for example if you think about doing something and then do it thought has influenced the material world. #themoreyouknow

>>20572021
>>20572031
This is literally just Gramsci you stupid leftoid

>>20572022
Filthy fucking Jewish Khazarian mafia kikes like you aren't human

>>20572040
Yikes. I guess Marx really is the superior thinker kek.

>>20571709
START WITH THE GREEKS
It's that simple

>>20572049
>Guy who never worked a day in his crying about how hard work is
WOOOOOOW WHAT AN AMAZING TAKE FROM SUCH A SMART JEWISH FELLOW!
I'm surprised they didn't give Mordecai his Peace Price!

>>20572049
I'm not detecting an argument old chap

>>20572055
You're free to refute him. Oh wait, you can't, because (1) he's correct and (2) you're too mentally ill to think critically.

>>20571732
>Marx outdid him in nearly every analysis of philosophy's shortcomings

>>20572058
You never offered me one that in any way responded to the original Marx quote. I'm only stopping to your level niggga

>>20572061
There's nothing to refute. Its just propaganda and lies by a kike.

>>20572070
spoken like a loser. Well done.

>>20572079
>spoken like a loser. Well done.

>>20572068
Yes I did. I said that intellectual developments influence material developments rather than mysteriously having no causal effect whatsoever, which is a retarded notion. Most obviously in political structures

>>20572084
>intellectual developments influence material developments
I asked you to substantiate this and you literally said "well if I think of doing something and I do it then boom I influenced the world."

What you're addled whitoid brain failed to take into account is that any decision you think you're freely making today is in fact predetermined by the material circumstances you find yourself in.

>Philosophy is condensed in the well-known quotation "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence determines their consciousness." Marxism is not concerned with the antithesis matter-mind; it deals with the real world and the ideas derived therefrom. This real world comprises everything observable -- that is, all that by observation may be declared an objective fact. The wage-relations between workman and employer, the constitution of the United States, the science of mathematics, although not consisting of physical matter, are quite as real and objective as the factory machine, the Capitol or the Ohio River. Even ideas themselves in their turn act as real, observable facts. Mechanical materialism assumes that our thoughts are determined by the motions of atoms in the cells of our brains. Marxism considers our thoughts to be determined by our social experience observed through the senses or felt as direct bodily needs.

>>20572093
>well if I think of doing something and I do it then boom I influenced the world.
Yeah and you failed to address this lel. You can also say that material circumstances have their origin in mental states, as they are created by human action(in comert with the environment). I'm not even going to be mean to you racially because it would just be cruel

>>20571732
Marx philosophy is fundamentally flawed, first because its ahistorical and pseudoscientific. Marx analysis of economic systems (all of his writings on Medieval society are laughably bad) is straight-up not factual, me interprets everything based on his already set frame of master and slave; just like Freud created a sticker for sexuality which he uses to interpret everything as being a product of sex (a kid playing with legos is actually playing with tiny penises entering tiny vaginas) so did Marx create a sticker for his economy (Medieval economy was between free feudal lords and enslaved serfs, ignoring the whole reality and complexity of medieval economies and societies). Furthermore, his ideas cant be proven wrong (ascientific) because of his contradictory writing (if the masses revolt I was right. The masses didnt revolt, but im still right because they werent conscious enough). His writings literally are cult-like, million of pages that can be twisted in any way or form to describe a situation, Scientology does the same thing.
Also „outdid him in nearly every analysis of philosophy's shortcomings“ is laughably wrong, only a reddit faggot would believe this. Not even frankfurt fags believed this. His metaphysics are wack, there are none, and economy isnt the last reality, thus such a claim that he „outdid every shortcoming“ while actually doing nothing is just wrong. If anything, Marx didn't understand German idealism at all, he instrumentalized Spirit, completely misunderstanding it. Nietzsche was original, Marx had to base all of his writings on two (actually competent thinkers), Hegel and Feuerbach

>>20572106
>material circumstances have their origin in mental states.

You literally can't kek. BUt I look forward to the argumentation.

>you failed to address this lel.
I just did buddy boi. Your individual decisions are pre determined by the material circumstances you find yourself in. You don't change anything by doing your own little thing - you merely allow it to keep going. That's where 'revolution' and 'praxis' come in.

>hey are created by human action(in comert with the environment.
And what motivates human action? To begin, basic needs, and these find their fulfilment in the objective world. Hunger, thirst, shelter. It all comes back to the world. 'high-level' ideas are no different.

> The fear of want and hunger has weighed like a nightmare on the minds of men. But, in a socialist system, when this fear will have been removed, when mankind will be master of the means of subsistence, and thinking will be free and creative, the system of production will also continue to determine ideas and institutions.

You literally cannot outdo Marx. He has all the answers. You must be at least 90iq here because it's too easy kek.

>>20572127
Try to explain why people volunteered their time to build cathedrals they knew they would never see finished you soulless pleb

Marx's philosophy is just Manichean, slave morality. In the Genealogy of Morals, Nietzsche says slave morality was born out of the Jewish envy and resentment of aristocratic wealth and culture. Marx's sociological theories are just the application of these beliefs in a pseudo-scientific matter. Class struggle is just brain-dead, Jewish "good versus evil." Historical materialism is Jewish millenialism. All his arguments are purely moral, and are born out of the basis of spite. Marx was very spiteful, hateful Jew who schemed all his life while never lifting a finger to help himself or his family.

>>20572135
>He doesn't know the origins of religious thought.
>He doesn't know masons needed to eat, drink, and shelter their families in return for their labor.

Holy fuck, rightoids are actually low iq.

>>20572135
Faggot, do you actually think cathedrals were pet-projects?

>Religion is the opium of the people. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions

>>20572143
You can't even read. I referred specifically to the voluntary labor done by all types of citizens. Also lmao at your marxoid attempt to reduce religion to material factors

>>20572149
>he doesnt understand the sublime
Marxbros....

>>20572151
>voluntary labor done by all types of citizens.

Where? You're actually coping right now.

>reduce religion to material factors

That's demonstrable in a thousand and one different ways. It's so widely accepted that you have to be a sexless larper to try and argue otherwise. But still, I'd love to hear the objections kek.

>>20572084
>What you're addled whitoid brain failed to take into account is that any decision you think you're freely making today is in fact predetermined by the material circumstances you find yourself in.

>it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence determines their consciousness

You are a retard and it shows, you don't even understand what you are posting. You dont understand what "freely" and free will means, you dont understand the relation between needs and will. This comes from you not reading Hegel, or any philosophy before this.
Further more, you dont even understand Marx, and the development of society, because by your understanding any form or revolution is impossible, its impossible for the workers to seize the means of production, since they are "predetermined" to work for their masters

>>20572162
>He thinks 'the sublime' is why cathedrals were built.
>Doesn't know cathedrals were forms of social control and organization.

Oh no no no the state of whiteoids....

>>20572165
Also, you don't differentiate between (and don't understand) consciousness and free will.
Start with the Greeks, read Theaetetus nigger

>>20572163
I genuinely feel bad for you if you literally dont have a religious instinct. I bet you do have one though and it just manifests subtly in relation to things like music, art nature etc and you dont even realize what it is

>>20572176
kek so you ARE coping. I thought as much.

>>20572181
>kek so you ARE coping. I thought as much.

>>20572168
>le tough realist face
Very sad. Anyone who has been in a cathedral knows it represents the opposite of coercion and control. The church being corrupt at times doesnt mean the religious instinct was just fake

>>20572187
>Actually appealing to 'feelings' over the facts kek.

This is just sad now.

>>20572199
Feelings are more real than facts anon, they determine the outcome of the facts. You cannot explain the history of the church with regard only to economic facts.

>>20572207
>You cannot explain the history of the church with regard only to economic facts.

Not 'economic' per se, but certainly material, anthropological, sociological etc. You absolutely can. And it HAS been done

It's not my fault if your reading lists are skewed by your ideological prejudices. Luckily for you, however, a plethora of information is freely available.

>>20572168
>Doesn't know cathedrals were forms of social control and organization
And the artisans that made works of art to honor God and thank God for being the artist of existence itself did so out because LE unverifiable notion of upper classes wanting artists to construct works of art out of their free will and donate it for everyone to see

This is the brain of the average commincel, pure resentment towards humanity, literally jew-brain. Imagine seeing someone constructing something authentically, something you will never know how it feels, and then reducing it "but its actually alienation bro", "its a mean of control bro". Marxism is a cope, its the opiate for urbanite retards that sold their farms to work for capitalists.

The only way to archive Marx's utopia is for you landless gypsie faggots to drown in a river

>>20572207
>Feelings are more real than facts anon, they determine the outcome of the facts.

Holy fuck I'm actually laughing right now. Absolute state of this board. Could you be any more onions?

>>20572224
I'm a Caroll Quigley chad, you wouldnt get it tbqh.

>>20572227
No, retard. They did it to for food and shelter. I didn't read the rest of your screed because your first sentence confirmed your low iq. rip.

>>20572230
>he is afraid to be vulnerable
The world is not so scary anon

>>20572244
(You)

>>20572224
>Not 'economic' per se, but certainly material, anthropological, sociological etc. You absolutely can. And it HAS been done

All of these still miss the point, the final cause is in man. There are no cathedrals on Mars. The Cathedral didn't have to be in a specific form, it didn't even have to be a "cathedral". A silver ceremonial goblet can't be explained that way.
So we can say that silver is causa materialis, that it has a certain shape of the cup causa formalis, that it was made by a certain silversmith or craftsman causa efficiens, and that this cup will be used for church ceremonies causa finalis. But none of these causes tell us why specifically a silver goblet as a sacred object? We can come to this answer only when we combine all four causes, and when we realize that there must have been a man who devised the ultimate cause of the cup, according to formal and material causes, where the idea of the cup as something that could potentially be, as something that can potentially be “introduced into being.
This is where your idea fails, this is what I also said by you not understanding free will and consciousness

>>20572242
>They did it to for food and shelter.
They took food out of their mouths for food? Lmao
>I didn't read the rest of your screed because your first sentence confirmed your low iq. rip.
What a sad cope

>>20572248
Did a girl hurt your feelings? It is better to have loved and lost you know
#livelaughlove

>>20572230
>Absolute state of this board.
But yet
>Ignores any actual philosophy
>Ignores any actual replies
>Doesnt read
>Spams kek
Back to plebbit tranny incel

>>20571732
Kek. Do you actually believe this? I cannot imagine a single philosopher who has been as BTFO’d by the passage of time as Marx, nor can I think of one who has been as vindicated as Nietzsche.

>>20571732
Good job, retard, you killed what could have been a comfy thread where we try to discuss interpretations and talk about the book in the OP in general.

Good fucking god i hate political extremist cocksuckers so fucking much