/lit/ - Literature

>>20560259
I prefer advanced economics

deboonked

>>20560259
>HOLY SHIT LE CHICAGO SCHOOL STOOGE WHO IS ALSO BLACK BTW IS GONNA MAKE BE DEEEBOOONKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!

Another low-quality thread.

>>20560259
>capitalism shits itself every 5-10 years
>SOCIALISM DEBUUUUNKED
Why are so many people so eager boot lick Billionaires and the people that oppress them?

>>20560259
The best economists are The German historical school and you can't change my mind

>>20560866
Kill yourself you worthless bootlicking leftist retard

>>20560866
Capitalism is descriptive communism is normative, the first one shows obvious collectivist features like specialisation, building chains etc. False dichotomy, mental how it's still discussed on university levels of knowledge.

>>20560259
Read
>Capitalism
by George Reisman.

>>20561247
Enjoy Putins price hike because of capitalism

>>20561306
In what sense is capitalism descriptive and communism normative?

>>20561211
Veblen is all that matters.

>>20560259
Thomas sowell also has a book called Marxism

>>20562306
he's ok but Schumpeter, List, and Polanyi are way better.

Recommend a few texts to introduce me to economics

>>20560259
>basic economics debunks advanced economics
Hehehehe

>>20561306
if capitalism is descriptive why did it not exist prior to 1600

>>20563156
>t. seething marxist
So sad. Too bad.

Every capitalist society has massively increased human well-being. Every communist society has massively decreased human well-being. I wonder which one works.

>>20563156
Basic economics debunks primitive economics

>>20563780
Yeah but have you considered that REAL communism has indeed never actually been tried?

>>20560866
Socialism shits itself 24/7.
>>20561211
I've heard of them but don't know much. What do you think they bring to the table that most people are missing out on?>>20563156
Calling Marxism advanced economics supposes it's not a heterodox school. We wouldn't consider alternative theories of physics that allow the flat earth model to make sense are advanced physics, no matter how many books are written about the model.

>>20563780
>Every capitalist society has massively increased human well-being
Source?
Neither works by the way, and you're a troglodyte if you think otherwise.

>>20560259
>Thomas Sowell
Does he have any other books that are worth reading? Aside OP's pic of course.

>>20564010
>troglodyte
why do leftoids think this insult works? sounds like a rad dinosaur

>>20563790
most of them view economics as a historical science, tracing the origin of economics from hunter-gatherers to modern society through different cultures. Schumpeter was said to be the only capitalist that understood Marx, Polanyi was a socialist who believed in medieval guilds, List founded the national system based on trade protections and central banking, all approached economics as a cultural and historical system that depended on what time and place and what culture it resided in to calculate what fit best with the society it governed.

>>20564105
I'd consider Applied Economics, basically BE part 2. Focuses more on real scenarios, 2nd-order effects, unintended consequences.

>>20564105
Black rednecks
Vision of the anointed

The United States used to be a communist country back in the 60s because everyone had access to high wages and cheap housing. It became capitalist from the 70s onwards where wealth inequality started going haywire, housing became expensive and wages became low.

The worst life is for the average person the more capitalism is being implemented

>>20560259
>Debunks both astrologers AND chiromancers
????

>>20564109
Leftists are well read and usually belong to the upper class so they use fancy words instead of "shitskin" "nigger"

>>20564576
>Leftists are well read and usually belong to the upper class
so...they're not really leftist then?

Oh my God I'm... I'm... I'm goNNA DEBOOOOOONKKKK!!!! UOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M DEBOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKINGGGGGGGGG.

>>20564576
It doesn't really matter if you are in the upper class or not. If you unironically use troglodyte as an insult you'll be laughed at. Upper classes when insulting each other often passive aggressively refer to each others financial status or general achievements to demean others. Troglodyte is more for people who want to appear smart but have never been in a room with upper class people

>>20562303
capitalism was based on observations about our economy whereas communism was made up of predictions and prescriptions for a hypothetical economy.

>>20564854
>Upper classes when insulting each other often passive aggressively refer to each others financial status or general achievements to demean others.
>thinks /biz/ saying "stay poor" is upper class

>>20563790
>We wouldn't consider alternative theories of physics that allow the flat earth model to make sense are advanced physics, no matter how many books are written about the model.
these comparisons again. my dude there are marxist economists like michael heinrich, michael lebowitz, and andrew kliman that know their stuff and are respected professors of economics (at least by people in other fields - they do get a lot of shit from economists). the comparison to flat earth theory is not only dumb because flat earth theory was never a position held by anyone in physics, but also because even if you made a comparison to something that was once mainstream (e.g. geocentrism), that would still be a bad comparison because neoclassical theory is much more recent that heliocentrism. a theory that's something like 50 years old has not been around enough to prove its stay, and indeed a lot of people already have problems with neoclassical economics. on top of this, it's the case that marxism is considered an ok perspective in pretty much every other field (history, sociology, political science, etc). if every academic field other than physics thought flat earth theory was ok, that eould make physics look kind of suspect wouldn't it? especially if round earth theory was in the material interests of the ruling class of society and physics happened to be the one field that has any kind of serious influence on public policy?

>>20560259
Sowell was preemptively refuted by Marx.

>>20564961
>a theory that's something like 50 years old
it's actually more like 40 years old, lol. at least if we're talking when it became mainstream and everything else became "heterodox"

>>20564961
>(at least by people in other fields - they do get a lot of shit from economists).
In other words, they practice heterodox economics. Leave judging their economic claims to the economists.
Geocentrism would be too kind a comparison, because it would imply that at some point Marxist theory wasn't heterodox economics.
>a theory that's something like 50 years old has not been around enough to prove its stay
The age of a theory has nothing to do with the evidence for it.
>and indeed a lot of people already have problems with neoclassical economics
People disagreeing with models of how the world works doesn't tell me anything about how accurate the models are.
Also, neoclassical models are models. They're meant to be approximations of reality. Their only goal is to be the most accurate compared to other ways of understanding things. In other words, being able to point out flaws shouldn't be difficult. The question is if they can come up with suitable replacements.
>history
A field within the humanities with people not necessarily equiped to evaluate economic claims.
>sociology and political science
Less rigorous social sciences than economics with people who are not necessarily equiped to judge economic claims.
Again, leave economic claims to the economists. Marxism is a heterodox economic school.

>>20565036
political scientists, sociologists, and especially philosophers (absolutely not less rigorous than economics) are absolutely equipped to critique economics (which they have done, a lot) and evaluate marxism. you just look like an ideologue shutting off economics from critique

>>20565075
>Philosophers
>Rigorous evaluators of economic claims
No field of science ever cares what philosophers have to say on the matter. If the experts of the field and philosophers disagree, they don't start changing their minds. Philosophers aren't trained in the field as well.
Also, economics is 100% more rigorous than sociology and political science. Its methods of empirical analysis are the most careful and is highly data driven in its research in the modern day.

>>20565097
Science is a religion, actually, to many people. No wonder it winges at the slightest criticism

>>20565110
Funny, I see Marxism as a religion.
Waiting for capitalism to fall and for socialism to rise like Christians wait for Jesus to come back.

>>20564895
>can't read
Like I said the upper class is far more passive aggressive with their insults. It is just seen as bad manners to outright insult somebody. Calling people outright poor is not accepted. Reading philosophy books or knowing a lot doesn't make you upper class, at best it makes you part of the intelligentsia and they are not always taken as seriously. It can be quite surprising how different some of their mannerism are to that of the lower classes

What is the basic idea of Marxism?

>>20565097
i get the sense you are not an academic but some dude who's spent too much time on r/badeconomics. anyway i'll leave you with a suggestion to actually read some of the fields you disparage. for instance, one big difference between sociology and economics is that sociology still mainly accepts the labor theory of value. they know about marginal utility, but believe the ltv has more social explanatory power. go and read their arguments for it! it's interesting stuff, you don't have to reel every time someone disagrees with your priests

>>20565036
Marxism is not an economic school. it's a critique of economics
>>20565075
>political scientists, sociologists, and especially philosophers (absolutely not less rigorous than economics) are absolutely equipped to critique economics (which they have done, a lot) and evaluate marxism
no they aren't
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
>The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical and, generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination.
>>20565115
Marxists don't wait for anything. in fact they persistently criticize that kind of attitude:
>the proletariat still acts, during the period of struggle for the overthrow of the old society, on the basis of that old society, and hence also still moves within political forms which more or less belong to it, it has not yet, during this period of struggle, attained its final constitution, and employs means for its liberation which after this liberation fall aside. Mr Bakunin concludes from this that it is better to do nothing at all... just wait for the day of general liquidation -- the last judgement. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/04/bakunin-notes.htm

>>20565169
>Bakunin
>a Marxist

Oof.

>>20560866
Real capitalism has never been tried.

>>20565179
most literate il/lit/eracy lurker

For me it’s rothbard. Sowell comes of to me as just another right wing economist that got popular just by being black. He is still talented but he isn’t as influential as rothbard who is basically the libertarian marx.

>>20563783
Thats the same as arguing real fascism has never been tried.

>>20562202
>blaming your retarded centrally planned pagan central bank on a bald man on the other side of the world

>>20563790
>We wouldn't consider alternative theories of physics that allow the flat earth model to make sense are advanced physics, no matter how many books are written about the model.

Of course not, because that model is correct and the pope pays you not to teach it, you dumb jesuit

>>20565142
being psionically mind controlled by evil aliens

>>20564562
communism is fiat currency which the US has had since 1913

communism is papal rule which is why they oppose giving the bible to peasants

>>20562202
I know you consider suicide. Are you just going to sit around considering all your life? Or are you going to act? Take arms against a sea of troubles? An hero, anon. Do it.

>>20563760
Capitalism is default human behavior. It has existed forever. When you trade a goat for some cloth from another tribe, that's capitalism. When you grow your here and sell the milk so you can buy more, that's capitalism. It's literally the absence of a system or structure.

>>20565142
All useful commodities have a value derived from the average labor input required to produce them. Therefore, to make a profit, capitalists must steal some "value" (denominated in hours) from laborers. who are therefore not getting paid for the full value of their labor time. Naturally this theory has a lot of problems, like the transformation from labor hours into prices in a consistent manner, reduction of different kinds of labor into a single unit of abstract homogeneous labor time, conflict with generally-accepted frameworks like marginalism, etc. read Bohm-Bawerk's criticism of Marxism

>>20565537
Start producing some crude oil and microprocessors. You should be able to outcompete the existing evil companies that are stealing some of the labor.

>>20565566
I'm just explaining what Marxist economic theory actually says when you peel back all the philosophical masturbation and moral exhortations, I am not a Marxist. Microprocessors are actually a pretty good illustration of how it's difficult to reduce more complex labor activities into units of abstract homogeneous labor time.

>>20565537
>Muh labor theory of value
Do communists still say this? Things are worth what people will pay for them. For instance, you typing words on the internet might be lots of labor, but does that mean it should be worth lots of money? Whereas someone, idk, making burritos for one hour is infinitely more valuable than everything you've ever done. How much labor you've wasted doesn't actually determine what you're worth to anyone else.

>>20565605
Most Marxists are just moralists or Third Worldists deep down, but if you are a serious Marxist you sort of have to uphold the LTV, it's the foundation of Marxism.

>Things are worth what people will pay for them
That's not quite what it's saying though, value =\= price in Marxism. The value of a commodity is denominated in time, the price of a commodity is denominated in USD, for example. Prices can fluctuate over time due to supply and demand, but the value still depends on the labor time input over the long run in Marxism The problem is in the consistent transformation of hours to USD.

>>20565163
Even if I found their arguments convincing, you wouldn't have addressed the criticism I gave in context. Which was, if we're going to appeal to authority, let's appeal to the most relevant authority. Two, let's appeal to the authority that leans more heavily on rigorous empirical analysis. This characterizes economics more than sociology. Everyone can make an argument. I was talking data analysis.

>>20560866
>capitalism shits itself every 5-10 years
Marxism truly is a religion. Its adherents say absolutely retarded things and make wild leaps of logic, even though they can be perfectly intelligent when dealing with any other domain.
Human societies shit themselves, that’s just what happens. It’s a universal constant across all of history. If you have an awesome new form of political organization that will ensure peace and happiness for all eternity, then you need to have a damn good argument for why anyone should believe you, besides just “dude trust me lmao”

>>20560259
Based Sowell

>>20565622
>The problem is in the consistent transformation of hours to USD.
No, the problem is the point I brought up, that labor has absolutely no direct relationship to value. If you spend 5 hours making a perfect shit casserole it is still worth nothing.

>>20565695
This is why Marxists use the "socially useful" qualifier when talking about labor time, they aren't talking about carefully hand-crafted mudpies.
>that labor has absolutely no direct relationship to value.
While this is true in ordinary language, Marxism DEFINES value in terms of (socially useful) labor time. You have to realize that Marxists have special definitions of things internal to Marxism that don't necessarily line up with their colloquial usage.

>>20560866
>capitalism shits itself every 5-10 years
and yet it somehow outlasted every communist state

>>20565739
>While this is true in ordinary language, Marxism DEFINES value in terms of (socially useful) labor time. You have to realize that Marxists have special definitions of things internal to Marxism that don't necessarily line up with their colloquial usage.
Or relate in any way to actual reality

>>20565530
>It's literally the absence of a system or structure.
no, it isnt retard
read about primitive communism
read about me just killing you and taking the cloth and goat
property rights are a structure
im not communist, I just hate retarded ancaps like you

>>20565829
Primitive communism was made up to retcon the past in support of communism.

>>20565988
k, capitalism is still recent

>>20566021
yeah if you ignore the tens of thousands of years under the hellenic world civilization you fucking retard

>>20566029
ancient greece had capitalists, wage workers and commodity production but it wasnt generalized like it is now.

>>20566052
"Now" is not particularly capitalist. Greece did not have half the population out of the productive economy.

>>20565739
>why Marxists use the "socially useful" qualifier
Socially useful is doing most of the heavy lifting there. In what sense is an actor doing such socially useful labor such that their labor brings in millions?
It's much simpler to say an actor makes a lot of money because their labor is in high demand while being in low supply at the quality they give.

>>20566052
ancient greece was basically the copypasta of McDonalds Presents: the Police except instead of McDonalds it was Zeus, and people were still more free than they are now

>>20566078
you only find out it the labour was socially necessary after the product of said labour has been 'tested' on the market. If the capitalist cant find a buyer for his product then the work put into it was wasted; it was not socially necessary.

>>20565530
>When you trade a goat for some cloth from another tribe, that's capitalism.
no it's not. that's incidental trade of surpluses. most of the product is made not for exchange with another tribe but for direct consumption by the producing tribe. if the trade stops, the tribe can subsist just fine. whereas in capitalism most of life necessities are produced for exchange.
>>20565537
that's nowhere near the "basic idea of Marxism". here's the basic idea of Marxism:
>What I did that was new was to prove: (1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with particular historical phases in the development of production, (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat, (3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.
>Naturally this theory has a lot of problems, like the transformation from labor hours into prices in a consistent manner, reduction of different kinds of labor into a single unit of abstract homogeneous labor time
this is a problem for capitalism, not for Marxism. the unrelenting swings in prices constantly undermine the stability of capitalism. but why would this be a problem for Marxists?
>conflict with generally-accepted frameworks like marginalism
every revolutionary class went against the ruling ideology. in fact every revolution in science too went against the existing knowledge. that didn't stop any of them though, because they had a basis in material reality, to which people's ideas must sooner or later conform. and so does communism.
>>20565605
>Things are worth what people will pay for them.
and what people pay for things they need depends on what part of society's total effort is needed to make those things. that's why an airplane is dearer than an apple.
>For instance, you typing words on the internet might be lots of labor, but does that mean it should be worth lots of money?
no. your point?
>>20566078
>It's much simpler to say an actor makes a lot of money because their labor is in high demand while being in low supply at the quality they give.
Marxism doesn't contradict this. there's no reliable way of producing world star level actors that will have mass appeal, so what they get paid has little relation to value. but it's very different with basic level actors, who can get mass produced by special schools or even just by talent scouting or open casting.

>>20566190
So if two products will sell, your claim is that one hour of labor is equal in value to another?

>>20566078
>Socially useful is doing most of the heavy lifting there
Well yes, the obvious implication is that desire is prior to labor hours in imbuing a commodity with value.

>>20564109
>>20564576
Shut the fuck up, directionbrain.

>>20560259
you post this thread about once a week, kys

this post really shows how shit this godforsaken board is now

>>20566986
no u

>>20565169
god fuck off reddit leftcom. marx didn't become a world-renowned critic of politicsl economy by ignoring political economy

>>20565530
ok smith

>>20565430
>pagan
amerimutt hands typed this post. the monotheistic semites controlling the fed are "pagan" now

>>20560866
national socialism already figured out how to dodge depressions

>>20566201
>Marxism doesn't contradict this. there's no reliable way of producing world star level actors that will have mass appeal, so what they get paid has little relation to value. but it's very different with basic level actors, who can get mass produced by special schools or even just by talent scouting or open casting.
It sounds like Marxism can't handle this situation but supply and demand can. The rare skill gets higher compensation because that ability is rare and in high demand because worldwide attention is extremely profitable.

>>20567667
Marx never dies supply and demand.

>>20567667
Marx never denies supply and demand

reminder that none of the anons in this thread have read Capital and they know nothing about marxist economics
https://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/socialism_book/

>>20567693
So what's the point of the labor theory of value? What does it explain?

>>20567297
yeah the zeus eagle on this brutalist dystopian architecture really screams judaism

>>20567735
Ask David Ricardo.

>>20567724
>marxist economics
Neither do you it seems.

>>20567802
We don't need to accept LTV in order to understand land rents.
Everything LTV can correctly explain, marginalism can explain too. But not everything marginalism correctly explains is something LTV can explain.

>>20567830
Do you even know what marginal utility is a response to?

>>20560259
no, but this does

>>20567857
Irrelevant. If marginalism explains everything LTV correctly predicts but LTV doesn't predict everything marginalism correctly predicts, marginalism is the superior theory.
So do you have a n y reason why people should believe in the LTV?

>>20562303
in basically every conceivable way, anon

Has no one here read Karl Pooper? By saying that Marxism can be refuted, you're acknowledging it as a proper scientific theory, an assessment with which Pooper would disagree.

>>20567740
>the zeus eagle
This is equivalent to the Christmutt Identitarianism that claims Denmark is the tribe of Dan because of amateur wishful etymology. I can see that you saved the file as "pagan nazi eagle central bank" which is hilarious, not only are you enough of a subhuman seething non-white to equate eagles and paganism to nazism, betraying your insecurity, you are also trying to imply that the very race the national socialists identified as being the greatest threat to their country are also national socialists. In your smooth flat brain, Semitic, Yahweh/Moloch worshippers that control international finance are national socialist, right

This eagle is based on Rome, both east and western Rome retained the eagle as a symbol long after conversion to Christianity because it is unrelated to Zeus, it was one of several battle standards for the legions that included a boar and a human head. Something you would know if you weren't a midwit who hasn't read a book before. Founders of your oligarchic "Republic" sought to emulate Rome so chose the eagle to represent themselves in the seal of office and so on - so this is equivalent to pretending that the oval office worships Zeus, which is absurd and ludicrous, but then again you are absurd and ludicrous.

Since you are so fucking stupid that you equate this eagle to paganism with the most shoddy, non-existent symbol association possible, you have ended up disingenuously pretending that these literal kikes in control of your mutt country's economy are genuine Indo-European pagans worshipping Zeus, despite the fact that they are the antithesis to that.

Brutalist architecture isn't even the right category either, the building is built in Amerimutt neo-Renaissance style. Everything about you, from the dimwit image name, to the random buzzwords about paganism and architecture, indicate you are a 2 digit IQ shitskin mutt with obvious shit brown eyes seething at whites more than kikes. Kill yourself

Friendly reminder that capitalism is the result of communism, else communism is not possible

>>20568091
Put me in the cap

why are marxtards so damn stupid?

>>20568074
Karl Popper was George Soros' mentor. Why would anyone agree with him?

>>20568890
Nathanial Rothschild was Marx's mentor. Why would anyone agree with him?

>>20568905
Who said anything about agreeing with Marx? Popper was a lazy academic and a neurotic Jew who had a child's reading of Plato and Hegel.

>>20567194
I didn't say he ignored political economy
>>20567667
>It sounds like Marxism can't handle this situation but supply and demand can.
Marxism explains it by supply and demand:
>When we refer to a monopoly price, we mean in general a price determined only by the purchasers' eagerness to buy and ability to pay, independent of the price determined by the general price of production, as well as by the value of the products. A vineyard producing wine of very extraordinary quality which can be produced only in relatively small quantities yields a monopoly price.
>>20567735
as for prices, it explains those of mass reproducible commodities. so like 99.9% of them. the number of world famous actors and other supply-limited products is negligibly small (because they're rare), compared with the mass of reproducible commodities, on which the reproduction of society depends. so the prices of the former are a completely negligible factor for understanding the overall movement of capital, while the prices of the latter are crucial.
this is another example of why thinking Marxism is a school of economics like that one other retard in this thread makes one immediately miss the entire point. Marxists don't give a shit about contemplating and explaining irrelevant minutia like economists would and publishing tonnes of worthless papers on it. they're only interested in understanding the broad movements of capital, to the extent that this is useful for the proletariat in advancing its struggle. that's because they're communists, not economists.

>>20568091
i am literally jacked with blue eyes. i look like a fucking pleadian

the nazis were papal agents framing the innocent hellenes. rothschild = red shield = roman legions. communism is rule by the pope/pharaoh

>this is equivalent to pretending that the oval office worships Zeus

you're like those guys on joy of satan who say they worship lucifer and then call christians "xtians" because they're too stupid to realize christ is prometheus

>>20568091
america is run by jesuits working for the pope of rome who need to frame the jews because jews will never kneel to the roman emperor

also lucifer-prometheus the god of the jews literally is aryan, which means that christian identity is correct because jesus is krishna, an indo-aryan god

stop shitting up this thread with your rhesus factor and go watch your relatives on the gorilla channel

>>20565115
>>20565110
its not a case of x or y being 'a religion'. christianity, science, marxism, capitalism, e.t.c. are all supraindividual belief systems with a lot of structural similarities. there are only certain kinds of belief system like this which can emerge.

>normal economics but a black guy!

>>20563760
The technological and social determinants of advanced commodity exchange and valorization were not in effect until the late medieval/early modern era.

>>20565097
>Its methods of empirical analysis are the most careful and is highly data driven in its research in the modern day.
Which ironically is what has lead to a renewed interest in heterodox economics in the first place, the reemergence of empiricism in economics shows the flaws in the neoclassical paradigm.

>>20565530
>When you trade a goat for some cloth from another tribe, that's capitalism
That is simple commodity exchange.

>>20569504
>>20569526
>communism is rule by the pope/pharaoh
pharoah yes, pope no
pharoah is chinese emperor, head of state as child of heaven
mandate of heaven secured by blood

pope stops that shit by reminding them who the real Son of God is and extending divine right to rule to them

your options are catholic church backed king or chinese emperor, choose

>>20568740
Because they think they are so smart when really they are only about 5 percent different from liberal normies, and that 5 percent difference is pure retardation.

>>20570071
What is the difference? Why is that NOT capitalism? There is no argument besides convoluted and pointless semantics.

>>20570493
why IS it capitalism?
your definition is utterly useless for anything other than shitting on commie retards
just pretending that feudalism was never a thing like a slave-minded sea cucumber
there's no profit/ interest/ system of private property rights needed for any of that

>>20570493
in those tribes the decisive part of the product is held in common by the tribe and the direct goal of producing is feeding the members of the tribe. what's being traded away is a small surplus. the process of the reproduction of the tribe doesn't depend on that trade but on production directly for the producers' consumption.
in capitalism the decisive part of the product is private property and the goal of producing it is the multiplication of the money in this owner's possession through selling the product. what's being traded is the majority of the whole social product. the process of the reproduction of society is entirely dependent on production for trade and the owner's monetary gain.

>>20567297
rent free

>>20569526
so
you think 'rome' is secretly controlling america
you think jews worship lucifer/prometheus
you think this is a good thing
because you think jesus christ is lucifer
methinks youre just a fancy satanist

>>20570590
"Capital" comes from head count, like a herd of cattle. Only under convoluted commie semantics is basic free exchange not "capitalism."

>>20570614
No, the cattle is held as property by an individual. Primitive communism is mostly made up.
Why does it matter how much is traded for other products versus used directly? The end is the same whether I eat the cow or trade it for seeds which I trade for eggs etc.

>>20570793
>capitalism has the word 'Capital' in it
>I am very smart
since you're on child-tier inferences, heres the wiki etymology
'capitalism' as a term IS the convoluted semantics of communists

>>20560866
>capitalism shits itself every 5-10 years
>communism/socialism…
>*soviet union collapses, millions dead*
>*cambodia, millions dead*
>*North Korea, millions dead*
>*china, bad credit score? No credit score?”
>*Venezuela, lost any weight yet?*

Anon I….

>>20570792
well the NWO is catholic so draw your own conclusions

>>20567394

You mean literally just stealing shit from their neighbors? Yeah, I'm sure THAT would've worked out forever, and never would've led to any economic problems down the line.

>>20570850
This depends on whether you think Europe as a continent can achieve autarchy. It's anyone's guess.

>>20567724

Nobody needs to read Marx to understand Marxist economics. They read Marx to justify Marxist economics. His actual program's fairly simple. Hence why the vast majority of even Marxists barely read anything he wrote, including several prominent Marxist dictators.

>>20570858

Autarky's a stupid idea. Trade with other civilized nations has only ever been beneficial.

This doesn't include Russia. Nor does it include China. We were fools for ever believing otherwise.

The best that can be said for NS autarky is it's better than properly-realised communism or socialism, but that's hardly a point in its favor, since the same's true of almost everything else.

>>20570883

And this only applies to those who don't get murdered by the Natsocs who are rampaging through the land. If the Nazis had been even slightly less murderous at the start of their invasion of the USSR, they would've won the war. They already had a large number of Soviets fighting in their foreign legions even with all the rape and murder they ended up doing. Think of how many more would've rushed to their side if their goal hadn't been so immediate an eradication of the Slavs.

>>20570845
the NWO is not catholic
theyre masons and deists
so many have infiltrated the church
jesuits are nearly masons

>>20561211
His Socialism, Capitalism and Democracy is sitting for ages on my shelf.

>>20570883
autarky is the only resilient/sustainable/just idea
being dependent on international trade has only lead to global homogenization or short-lived empires
> it's better than properly-realized communism or socialism
as communists will remind you endlessly, there's no such thing as 'communism in one country'
it's global or bust

>>20570883
>if their goal hadn't been so immediate an eradication of the Slavs.
Where is your evidence that the goal of the Nazis was the eradication of Slavs? Goebbels was an admirer of Russian people and Dostoyevsky.
>Trade with other civilized nations has only ever been beneficial.
No it has not. You think everyone benefits when there is an influx of cheap commodities into a market?

>>20570928
>autarky is the only resilient/sustainable
Yeah, the US producing its own baby formula has really made its supply chain more resilie-

>>20570590
widescale barter never existed

>>20570793
>No, the cattle is held as property by an individual.
the result isn't changed here: the decisive part of the product of the proprietor's means of production is used to feed, clothe, etc. his family.
but if you want to say that cattle ownership is concentrated, the owners hire wage workers to milk it and then sell the milk, then we're getting somewhere. except at that point we're far away from a tribe that incidentally trades with another tribe.
>Why does it matter how much is traded for other products versus used directly?
because for a society to be capitalist, it must be dominated by capitalist production, and capitalist production is always production for exchange. so you can deduce that a society isn't capitalist from the fact that most of its production isn't for exchange
>>20570837
the USSR, Cambodia, North Korea, China and Venezuela were/are capitalist

>>20570945
>a shortage caused by reliance on international supply chains
>a shortage worsened by inflation cause by reliance on international trade
>in a country that is the center of global trade. abhorring autarky
>this is an example of why autarky is bad
you are r e t a r d e d

>>20565453
>communism is fiat currency which the US has had since 1913
Communism is literally no money... and the dollar was pegged to gold until 1971 when Nixon let its value float instead of shipping Americas gold reserves to Europe and Japan. In 1913 all that happened is the Federal Reserve system was created by the congress and took over certain monetary functions from the treasury and private banks, circulating bank notes were no more or less "fiat".

>communism is papal rule which is why they oppose giving the bible to peasants
This is your brain on Protestantism

>>20571114
>>a shortage caused by reliance on international supply chains
The US has stringent baby formula standards that force it to produce almost all the baby formula it consumes domestically. The supply of baby formula hasn't become any more resilient as result.
>a shortage worsened by inflation cause by reliance on international trade
Lol, this is your assumption. For one, tariffs make things more expensive because you're literally making competing products artificially more expensive so companies that otherwise wouldn't exist can sell their more expensive products. For two, businesses within a given country can fail too, leading to supply chain problems. For three, less access to overseas markets means less competitors to plug into any vacancies left by supply chain problems, so they'd actually take longer to resolve.
>in a country that is the center of global trade. abhorring autarky
Lol

Get out of my Sowell thread. The Chicago boys loved free trade. If you believe in free markets you don't believe in choosing winners. Ever.

>>20570818
>A communist in 1850 defines "capitalism"
What I was trying to avoid were self referential communist definitions

>>20571063
Kind of lost here. What is your point? Even using this definition there has been "capitalism" since at least ancient Greece

>>20571168
>produce almost all the baby formula it consumes domestically.
>produce
a) some ingredients are still supply chain dependent

b) the strict standards and the autarky are two separate things, you can produce domestically with looser standards

c) supply chain diversity and this are also two separate things. Letting Abbott monopolize so they can fuck up and recall everything during a pandemic also has nothing to do with autarky. Just split up and diversify domestic production

>>20571400
>A communist in 1850 defines "capitalism"
>What I was trying to avoid were self referential communist definitions
then avoid the word capitalism
there's lots of other cool words to describe your desired economy out there

>>20571449
>some ingredients are still supply chain dependent
Your beliefs imply a product should be more resilient the more domestically sourced it is. This hasn't proven to be the case.
>Letting Abbott monopolize so they can fuck up and recall everything during a pandemic also has nothing to do with autarky.
It has everything to do with it. The quickest way to bring in competition to a market place is to allow foreign goods to come freely into the country.

>>20571457
Why should I let commie jargon define my words for me? They came up with their own retarded version of all sorts of words, not my problem. What name would you have me call what I'm referring to?

>>20571457
There's nothing wrong with capitalism.
There's nothing wrong with free enterprise.
There's nothing wrong with trying to live nice.
I'm so tired of hearing you whine about the revolution
Or bringing down the rich
When was the last time you dug a ditch, baby?

>>20571457
Here's a thought: I don't care what your desired economy is, and anyone who imposes on my basic pursuits is evil and my enemy.

Commies like the line about the worker being entitled to the sweat of his brow, but you literally do not believe that. You believe that whoever "needs it most" is entitled to the sweat of my brow. Laissez-faire capitalistism is the only economic model that actually supports self-ownership.

>>20571741
>getting this upset about the prospect of losing his miniscule property
pathetic

>>20571400
>Kind of lost here. What is your point?
replying to your reply
>Even using this definition there has been "capitalism" since at least ancient Greece
wage labour must predominate for a society to be capitalist, not just exist
>>20571741
>Laissez-faire capitalistism is the only economic model that actually supports self-ownership.
yes, for about 10 years until capital centralizes and the proud self-owners become cucks living in tiny apartments owned by their banks and eating bugs

>>20571741
>>20571711
im not a commie
I just know laws are cool and good for any group larger than a village
without laws the useful business-motto of 'find a problem and sell a solution' becomes 'make a problem and sell a solution'
>Laissez-faire capitalistism is the only economic model that actually supports self-ownership.
no
it supports it the least actually, banks own the farmer's lands, monopolists own industry
>>20571672
> their own retarded version of all sorts of words
they sure do, but sometimes they make their own dumb original words
and you clearly arent able to take it back in a coherent manner

> post 1980's
> still obsessed with Marxism

>>20560866
>The state drowns in debt and pumps inflation
>Somehow this is capitalism's fault

>>20571818
Thanks for admitting you want to take my property

>>20571846
It's a socialist myth the capitalism leads to corporate centralization. The history of the US demonstrates a monotonic decrease in market share held by big corps. There are only 2 times they centralized and gained power instead, and both were under corpo-whore presidents who created world-shattering economic/regulatory policies (FDR's green new deal and the covid regime).
"Monopolies are kept in check by the government" is a bold-faced lie, it's verifiable that monopolies are created by the government. You can also consider the most monopolistic practices on earth, and they'll be all the most regulated ones. Cars, utilities like internet and phone, drugs (including patent protection bullshit), oil (almost exclusively owned by various governments, including US)

Think about that. The only reason giant corporations continue to exist are neoliberals who pretend they like your causes. They're inefficient and wither up in an even vaguely fair market.

>>20571876
Your hypothetical about banks owning all the farmland is better than the current system, in which Bill Gates owns all the farmland.

>>20571876
>I just know laws are cool and good for any group larger than a village
You're in a Sowell thread. The Chicago boys aren't anarchists. Everyone agrees we should have laws. We're suggesting that we need less regulations for an optimal outcome.

>>20571945
its not hypothetical, its exactly what happened in america's history during the dustbowl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z2yY5GhDto
>>20572086
>we need less regulations for an optimal outcome.
nah, we need less outsourcing to china

>>20571926
cope

>>20565115
That can be argued

>>20572120
>nah, we need less outsourcing to china

Leftoids will deny this

>>20565115
>>20565110
they both have pseudo religious folk beliefs and state ideologies surrounding them, though neither are inherently faith
for example, science only started taking on a religious aspect when scholars started considering empiricism self-justifying and building a materialist cosmology
this is why you kill them in Elden Ring
lgbtq though, thats a cult, especially the tq
>>20572497
based

>>20572509
true
rightoids with libertarian brain worms will also deny this

>>20572120
>>20572509
Leftists are against markets. Being anti-trade is anti-market, socialists.

>>20572509
>Leftoids will deny this
don't google no global bro

>>20572497
>Chart by progressive think tanks
Begone, schlomo.

>>20572566
see prime example here below
>>20572571
you are a pet of globalist elites that hate you

>>20572806
>you are a pet of globalist elites that hate you
Okay socialist.

>>20572497
>Banking and manufacturing
ah yes the literal government granted monopolies have become centralized. Laissez faire btfo....

I love Banks

>>20560259
Uhm…why is my copy different?

>>20573079
yes, this is what your laissez-faire fantasy works out to in real life. it needs monopoly to be established and then turns into monopoly as soon as capital has accumulated to a certain extent, has expanded its exploitation to the entire area available to it, and to continue accumulating needs now to turn from breadth expansion to depth expansion and start expropriating the proud self-owners as well as building a strong state that will be able to create conditions for the national capital to exploit foreign countries

>>20569504
>blue eyes
doubtful

>the nazis were papal agents framing the innocent hellenes
This is your brain on Christmuttism.
The national socialists are "papal agents" after the papacy tried to assassinate Hitler?
The national socialists are "papal agents" when Hitler behind closed doors planned with others like Goebbels, Bormann, Rosenberg and Himmler to destroy Catholicism?
The national socialists are "papal agents" after Catholic elements in the Wehrmacht, Abwehr and intellectuals conspired together to undermine the government?
The national socialists are "papal agents" after abolishing the actually Catholic Zentrum party?
The national socialists are "papal agents" when Catholics in Germany and the rest of Europe were vehemently opposed to them?
The national socialists are "papal agents" after Pope Pius wrote Mit brennender Sorge which had to be smuggled into Germany, or the 1942 Christmas address, or the Mystici corporis Christi?
Why would the papacy choose national socialists as their "agents" when they had an already Catholic party at their disposal? You're so fucking stupid you can't even use that 2 digit IQ of yours to think for more than 3 seconds about how retarded you are

>"Rothschild = red shield = Roman legions"
Are you fucking retarded? What are you even trying to say? What's this Christmutt Identarian tier etymological association? It's even worse than claiming the tribe of Dan is Denmark. You think the name Rothschild means red shield? It means red coat. What does this have to do with Roman legions, exactly, except as the most bizarre non-connection you summoned up as the most straw-clutching 2 digit IQ cope I've ever seen?
>communism is rule by the pope/pharaoh
Explain to me how this is remotely relevant or related to the fact that the national socialists are NOT Catholics and that American eagle has nothing to do with paganism or how the Jews that run your subhuman country are not pagan but are instead Semites

>>20569526
>america is run by jesuits
Jews*
>working for the pope of rome
Jews*
>who need to frame the jews
Jews*
>jews will never kneel to the roman emperor
Jews*
>also lucifer-prometheus the god of the jews literally is aryan
the god of the Jews is Yahweh, not Prometheus, sorry to burst your bubble, cope harder. You are as braindead as >>20569504
>christian identity is correct because jesus is krishna, an indo-aryan god
lmao, no. Christian identity is the opposite of Indo-European migration theory, they are not compatible no matter how much you try to shoehorn or mental gymnastic Christianity into Indo-European origins
>stop shitting up this thread with your rhesus factor and go watch your relatives on the gorilla channel
no argument, posted nothing of worth reading either, go kill yourself you Jew worshipping subhuman mutt faggot

>>20570675
>no argument

>>20574527
The AHNENERBE were good. They were just historians trying to discover the truth of human origins. HITLER was literally a fucking actor and probably Walt Disney

>>20568091
You expect me to read this ESL garbage, im not.

>>20574536
>Yahweh, not Prometheus

You think Yahweh is literally that dude's real name? Like he has a birth certificate and it says "YHWH"? No vowels and shit?

Do you think Guy Beahm's legal name is Dr Disrespect too? LMAO

>>20574536
based, thanks for doing the work king

>>20575032
this is your 3rd post or so in which you've not made a single coherent argument, everything you've said so far has been based on some schizophrenic nonsense you've made up in your head. No, I'm not calling you a schizo as ad hominem either, I mean it literally, you're deriving strings of meaning from things that are simply not there. Anyone who isn't schizophrenic can use simple observation of historical facts regarding Hitler to be fully aware that you are clueless and deluded. Instead of bringing up random things I did not mention at all, try addressing what I've actually said. Nobody mentioned the SS Ahnenerbe. If you're going to say Hitler was an actor and Walt Disney, and national socialists were Catholic agents, I'm not going to take you seriously

>>20575041
t. cannot read, is a zoomer with ADHD, has a 2 digit IQ, cannot make a single argument, is not even smart enough to read history let alone philosophy, cannot speak English properly and is an Amerimutt
don't get mad at me because you got so easily filtered and destroyed to the point people think my post is screencap material

>>20575049
strawman argument. Prometheus is not Jesus, no matter what level of terrible mental gymnastics or strawman arguments about proper names and birth certificates you use. The USA and western world is dominated by Jews, those Jews are atheists, worshippers of Yahweh (the same god as the Christian god) or Satanists (an inversion of Christianity). They are not pagans, they are not Indo-Europeans, and none of their theological characters such as Christ, Yahweh or otherwise are related to pagans or Indo-European myths, so stop appropriating Prometheus just to make your Semitic shitskin religion of metaphysical communism palatable.

>>20575080
you're welcome bro

>>20575119
>Jews are atheists

LMAO

>>20575124
>no argument
2 digit IQ detected

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/13/jews-in-u-s-are-far-less-religious-than-christians-and-americans-overall-at-least-by-traditional-measures

not sure what objection or opposition you would even have to what I said, considering atheists are generally soulless, which fits Jews perfectly, but you are obviously an ESL not from Europe

>>20575142
how can you say that a religion that believes in god is atheistic

sloppy job, coadjutor

>>20575188
Once again, another non-argument addressed to a strawman
Either you are disingenuous, or just stupid, or most likely both. Jews aren't a religion, they are a race, and a massive amount of them are atheists. Judaism is the religion so your "argument", if you can call it that, is only relevant if I had said "most followers of Judaism are atheists", but I didn't.

"Jewish secularism, which describes Jews who do not explicitly reject the existence of God but also do not believe it is an important part of their Jewishness, has a long tradition in the United States. A 2013 study conducted by the Pew Research Center found that 62% of self-described American Jews say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while just 15% say it is mainly a matter of religion. Even among Jews by religion, 55% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while 66% say it is not necessary to believe in God to be Jewish."

Do you have anything to say except LMAO and strawmen, or not? If you don't, stop replying to my posts, dimwit. I would stop posting if I was as filtered and lacking in things to say as you are

>>20575220
this argument is so stupid you must be Joan Donovan

>>20575251
once again, another non-argument because you're a low IQ shitskin dimwit, fuck off you schizophrenic brainlet, go to /his/ and talk about how Hitler was a papal agent there

>>20575295
wow you're seething, was Burger King out of double Whoppers today? Joan you need to lose weight, your ugly family is worried about you

>>20575309
Kek right on cue, mutts cannot stop talking about muttdonalds or make coherent arguments. you lost, hard

>>20565654
>it’s just human nature bro!

When will this outdated stock response end?

>>20571890
Unironically yes

>>20572870
biden is a socialist
you are his pet

>>20575188
judaism is an ethnoreligious group
this isnt complicated, first page wiki shit

instead of pretending christianity is indo-euro paganism, just convert to hinduism like the rest of your type