/lit/ - Literature

>>20539117
>>20539187
Sounds like cope. I'm not reading about muh past glory. It feels pathetic. Where is the Church today? In the gutter.

>>20539209
>I'm not reading about muh past glory.
>mfw modern science was born in the Catholic Church
>mfw Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
>mfw the Catholic Church invented the university
>mfw Western law grew out of Church canon law
>mfw the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
>mfw Charity is considered a virtue in tve West thanks to the Catholic Church
Retard.

>>20539209
First they have to destroy it then they “save” it and take all the credit. It’s an old hustle

>>20539452
>>mfw Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
Source?
>>mfw the Catholic Church invented the university
Plato had his academy long before
>>mfw Western law grew out of Church canon law
Roman law
>>mfw the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
Taken from Orthodox church
>>mfw Charity is considered a virtue in tve West thanks to the Catholic Church
Orthodox

Also
>makes a list of past glories thus missing the point

>>20539463
You know that book is bullshit, right?

Read:

https://historyforatheists.com/2017/11/review-catherine-nixey-the-darkening-age/

>>20539496
>destroy
You are the same anon of the Nixey book, read the links above, retard.

>>20539606
>Source?
The economic thought of the Late Scholastics, particularly the Spanish Catholic theologians of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Some economists, like the great twentieth-century economist Joseph Schumpeter, have even gone so far as to call these Catholic thinkers the founders of modern scientific economics.

>Plato had his academy long before
That isn't the university system. The first universities were created in Europe byCatholicmonks. TheUniversity of Bologna(Università di Bologna), founded in 1088, was the first university in the sense of being a high degree-awarding institute.

>Roman law
In most Western countries, if a person is convicted of murder and sentenced to death, but goes insane between the moment of sentencing and the moment of execution, he is kept alive until he regains his sanity and only then is he executed. The reason for this unusual proviso is entirely theological: Only if the man is sane can he make a good confession, receive forgiveness for his sins, and hope to save his soul. Cases like this have led legal scholar Harold Berman to observe that modern Western legal systems “are a secular residue of religious attitudes and assumptions which historically found expression first in the liturgy and rituals and doctrine of the church and thereafter in the institutions and concepts and values of the law. When these historical roots are not understood, many parts of the law appear to lack any underlying source of validity.

Read OP book.

>Taken from Orthodox church
(?)

>Orthodox
(?)

>>20539463
>>20539496
No one seriously believes that Christians destroyed classical Europe anymore. These myths come from 18th century enlightenment polemics, black legends and political tracts disguised as history.

>>20539660
>The economic thought of the Late Scholastics, particularly the Spanish Catholic theologians of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries.
Not a source. Post the name of the text.
>That isn't the university system. The first universities were created in Europe byCatholicmonks. TheUniversity of Bologna(Università di Bologna), founded in 1088, was the first university in the sense of being a high degree-awarding institute.
And look at what the university system became. Plato's academy was superior, and the university system was a cheap copy doomed to fail.
>The reason for this unusual proviso is entirely theological
That just means the Church had influence over the judicial system, how could it not when it reigned for so long? It was still born out of Roman Law.
>(?)
You're attributing to the Catholic church aspects that are not Catholic specifically but Christian generally.

>>20539660
>le libre échange
So why didn't they put it to practice? Why were economies of spanish colonies mercantile exploitative that exported raw goods to home country and why did Catholic (and others) rely on chartered monopolies well into 18th century?
Also you assume free-trade...le good, which is very naive.

>la plus vieille université
That is a meme, early universities were schools of learning consisting of 20 adult students and couple of teachers studying theology and branching out to law and medicine. There were similar institutions around the world back in those days Muslim Madrasas where they studies Islamic theology and fiqh. Similar in China with study of classics.
Even Roman law you mention down on had something similar with training of lawyers in Constantinople and Beirut way before that.
Universities only evolved in what we have today over time.

>le droit romain
You do realize reception of Roman law is civil law, right? You do realize diffeerence between civil and criminal law, right?


But this all doesn't matter RCC today is failing institution.

>>20539674
>it's a myth that classical civilization was extinguished by an Abrahamic cultural revolution
In another post I am sure you will take credit for your religion's role in saving civilization from "paganism"

>>20539117
>got any books on what I already agree with?

>>20539792
I'm not even religious, I just think you people are ignorant reactionaries, just of the leftist, secular kind.

>>20539839
>everyone who is critical of Christianity is a liberal secular leftist liberal atheist liberal vaxxertroon liberal liberal
not true, volcano worshiper, not true at all

>>20539117
>How the Catholic Church Built Western Cvilization
Through religious innovation, idolatry and hubris

>>20539846
I guess you're too retarded to read.

>>20539886
What is "secular" or "leftist" about acknowledging that Christianity stamped out the Greco-Roman religion and culture to replace it with squabbling rabbinates associated with competing royal powers? Christians take credit for converting the "barbarians" and the "pagans" and baptizing their chiefs all the time, and I suspect those who care to glorify such changes are neither secular nor left-leaning in politics.

>>20539792
>classical civilization was extinguished by an Abrahamic cultural revolution
It was destined by God. If might makes right then where is Odin or Zeus, if all is in accordance to their will? The present has exposed the falseness of the pagan beliefs, and God has made it known, that falsehood is perished and Truth has come, that only the blind can't see. Know that only Islam explicitly holds a pessimistic view of the future and the end of the world.

>>20539906
If "might makes right" in the sense values triumphing over other values then LGBTism will grant victory to the most blessed autogynephiles over their enemies. It has already conquered Christianity in Europe and North America

>>20539902
The reactionary part is assigning moral judgement to the sways of history. The general idea that Christianity "stamped out" classical culture is also not really true, it was quite a natural process.
>squabbling rabbinates associated with competing royal powers
The "squabbling rabbinates" did not much other than preserve Roman administrative laws as well as provide some sense of unity to what became medieval europe. The competing royal powers part was more of a result of germanization.
>glorify such changes
People who read or do history to glorify their "side" should be euthanized.

>>20539606
you are an unfathomably dense person

>>20539452
>mfw modern science was born in the Catholic Church
you mean protestants
>mfw the Catholic Church invented the university
a university is a just a big school, the arabs came to a similar idea at around the same time
>mfw Western law grew out of Church canon law
Where else would it "grow out" of?
>mfw the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
this is fine
>mfw Charity is considered a virtue in tve West thanks to the Catholic Church
everybody considers charity a virtue

>>20539760
>So why didn't they put it to practice?
And didn't they? Do you think that Spain came to have the third Rome by pure coincidence? or that Spain did not have scientists, businessmen and philanthropists to go around the world? Did the rest of the Europeans go around the world before Spain? What other than the Spaniards circumnavigated the globe? Who else had navigation techniques than the Spanish? all those technologies that the Spanish had took centuries to develop in other Western countries to be able to face the Spaniards.

>>20539463
>t.

>>20539938
if all changes are natural and should not be moralized then the christers infesting this website over the last few years should give up on bellyaching over the nihilism that developed out of their religious tradition

>>20540018
>who else but Spain
Portugal you dense retard

>>20539947
Sorry you got BTFO dude

>>20539209
Stupid.

>>20539117
The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark

The audiobook is excellent:
https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Victory-of-Reason-Audiobook/B07CB1GL9T

>>20539906
>It was destined by God. If might makes right then where is Odin or Zeus, if all is in accordance to their will? The present has exposed the falseness of the pagan beliefs, and God has made it known, that falsehood is perished and Truth has come, that only the blind can't see. Know that only Islam explicitly holds a pessimistic view of the future and the end of the world.
What does this logic imply about Vatican II lol

>>20539117
Catholic catechism

>>20539117
im going to ask a retarded question but please dont laugh: what is catholicism?

>>20539452
You keep on saying mfw, mfw, mfw. What do you actually feel anon?

>>20542411
Catholicism means universal Christianity.

>>20539674
It really is shocking how much of our historical narrative comes from those polemics. The conflict thesis comes directly from Andrew Dickson White and basically nobody else. One guy made the whole thing up and our entire culture now uncritically accepts it as the truth. Modernity is built on 18th century revisionism by "enlightenment" (name coined by themselves of course) retards who wanted to push their own narratives.

>>20543611
>ugh those people pushing their own made-up narratives
>anyway as I was saying, this passage in a book inside a book written by God proves that God will be born to a virgin woman and become the "messiah" of the people he also created and this was also actually what Plato believed all along but he never mentioned it

>>20543711
>>anyway as I was saying, this passage in a book inside a book written by God proves that God will be born to a virgin woman and become the "messiah" of the people he also created and this was also actually what Plato believed all along but he never mentioned it
This but unironically

>>20543722
What's this? Are you uncritically accepting polemics as truth based on 1st century revisionism of historical narratives pushed by retards?

>>20539117
Yes, but for this it was necessary to plunder Byzantium, where truly innumerable knowledge was stored.
In fact, the secret knowledge of Byzantium provided the West with its superiority.
The Templars stole the Savior Not Made by Hands (Mandylion), which was called Baphomet. Their teachings were those of the Capodocian heretics. The most famous of them, named Plethon, then moved to Italy and became advisors to the Medici house.
The father of European painting El Greco moved to Spain.
Byzantium was a great repository of inventions and finds, like the same steam engine of Heron.

>>20539117

>>20543727
>uncritically
Nope

>>20543711
>anyway as I was saying, this passage in a book inside a book written by God proves that God will be born to a virgin woman and become the "messiah" of the people he also created and this was also actually what Plato believed all along but he never mentioned it

>>20543711
Babbies first realization that there is no objective historical truth and it's narratives all the way down. Good luck anon, you're going down a deep rabbithole.

>>20543793
You must be over 18 to post here

>>20543794
>He thinks there's an empirically accessible objective historical truth
Oh no no no no, anon...You've got some growing up to do

>>20543810
>also i'm a tranny

>>20543793
>that there is no objective historical truth
That's where you're wrong, kiddo

>>20543821
>Biblical fundamentalists and atheist fedoras on the same side
It's actually amazing how often this happens

>>20543823
>btw i'm spiritual but not religious teehee

>>20543823
Are you illiterate or just have terrible short term memory? Also, seems like you're just trying to "win an argument" here, same with the other guy.

>>20543827
I accept your concession.

>>20543611
>our entire culture
Modern historiography is much more critical when it comes to that. The problem are the dilettantes.

>>20539209
How is the Church in the gutter? Maybe stop watching idiot radtrads like Taylor Marshall and just go to mass and pray.

It amazes me how much effort christcucks put into coping. Christcucks destroyed the western world, everyone knows this

>>20544059
Christianity civilised Europe. Freemasons (ie pagans) and Jews are to blame for liberalism.

>>20543611
one thing i always wonder about as far as enlightenment authors goes is, since those books were banned in france, but they were still getting printed prolifically and smuggled in, who were the people printing these subversive books? i've never seen a history or so much as a journal article about who the printers were that were printing this shit. i have my suspicions who they were, but i'd like to read research about it.

>>20539117
>dude i love the catholic church!
>also i think greedy businessmen should be given an even freer hand and we should legalize prostitution and drugs

>>20544014
priesthood is dwindling, religious orders are nearly extinct, laypeople barely go to church and no longer adhere to the teachings, and the whole thing is led by gay cabal. It's over.

>>20544551
in my neighborhood there is a really old protestant church from like revolutionary times, catholic church from 19th century, and coptic church built early 20th century. i have never seen anyone at the protestant church except the bums camped out under the neoclassical facade, the catholic church has the occasional wedding or funeral, but the mass is just really old people and a handful of immigrants, the coptic church on the other hand is fucking packed with young families with children and teenagers will even hang out there even on the weekend. it's really quit a contrast. of course, the new houses of worship currently being built are all mosques.

>>20544551
>Priesthood is dwindling
There's a significantly large movement of young men with traditional Catholic beliefs going into the priesthood, so much that various seminaries led by the gay cabal are turning their seminaries into nothing more than draconian boarding schools in order to squash it.
>Religious orders are nearly extinct
Not the traditional ones. Clear Creek Abbey, for example (in the USA) is building another monastery but is still turning people away from the amount of applicants they have. This is true for traditional orders across the board, across the world.
> laypeople barely go to church
Not where the Tridentine Mass is celebrated. Good luck finding an empty space in a pew if you aren't there at least 30 minutes early. The congregations are heavily weighted towards the under-30 crowd.
>and the whole thing is led by gay cabal
Can't argue with that, but it's not the first time

>It's over.

t. every non-Christian with a mouth that can form words since the Crucifixion

>>20544628
>There's a significantly large movement of young men with traditional Catholic beliefs going into the priesthood,
i don't know where this large movement is because all over europe there is a priest shortage that has to be plugged up with imported thirdworlders

>>20544662
My apologies, I'm speaking from an American/Anglospheric perspective.

While contentious, the SSPX draws tons of seminarians from the ethnic French populations in France, and some post-colonials as well. Monasticism is returning, in some way or another, in the UK as well, and in Ireland there's a bit of an awakening, but it's far off yet.

>>20544551
Yeah the church is going through some issues but as Pope Benedict said it’s going to emerge a much smaller but stronger Church in the end.

>>20539117
haven't read it yet but i did buy it it's called catholic catechism get the adult reading level (four)
Baltimore Catechism Four
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895551470
This is the beauty of technology the internet yeah you can wallow in the cesspool that is 4chan or porn or you can share something beautiful like christ with one another

>>20540107
i wasnt the priginal anon you were @ing but you are a non sequiter in the flesh, a living breathing condrum of misery

>>20539209
>I'm not reading about muh past glory.
Leave the board.

>>20539612
>a gay commie said that it gets in the way of Progress therefore it's bad
lol

>>20544662
He's referring to the large influx of LGBT youth into the seminaries of the US and Britain.

>>20539606
>orthodox
are you stupid

>>20544551
>>20539209
The West embraced a materialist/liberal/feminist worldview so naturally there are less people entering the priesthood, attending mass, and living by Catholic virtues and principles. Feminism caused birth rates to plummet, families to split apart, divorce and pre-marital sex to be regarded as normal, etc., and these are the primary causes of the decline in faith and morals. The decline happened in all Christian denominations in the West, not just Catholicism.
It doesn’t mean the Church is “in the gutter”. It means society is in the gutter because it rejects the Church. There are still thousands of seminarians, both diocesan and religious, training to be the next generation of priests and monks. There are still millions of traditional Catholics with large families who attend mass weekly and live by Catholic principles. The traditionalist orders such as the FSSP and SSPX especially are growing. These people will eventually displace the secular liberals just because of their birth rates if nothing else.
Is there a lot more that could be done? Absolutely. There is a great need to set up self-sustaining intentional communities living apart from the modern world, like the Amish but Catholic. These will be centres of Catholic renaissance in the future. If I ever make a lot of money, I will spend it on trying to establish such a community.

>>20545932
>It doesn’t mean the Church is “in the gutter”.
The Pope is by your own admission a homosexual Communist, a Freemason, and a Jew. How lower does it have to get? No, really, what do you define "in the gutter" as? When the Pope is also a tranny?

>>20544628
>There's a significantly large movement of young men with traditional Catholic beliefs going into the priesthood, so much that various seminaries led by the gay cabal are turning their seminaries into nothing more than draconian boarding schools in order to squash it.
Any source?

>>20545854
You do sound even dumber than the other idiot

>>20545861
Pathetic cope

>>20545938
The Pope is none of those things you weirdo. Stop watching sensationalist rhetoric on YouTube. If you want to know what the Pope is about actually read his encyclicals and interviews.

>>20545938
>>20547811
Also there have been Popes in the past who had mistresses and illegitimate children, Popes like John XII who openly were elected only because of nepotism, Popes who were murdered by noblemen for sleeping with their wives. Bad Popes have always existed and they do not disprove the Church.

>>20547811
>defending an hereticus manifestus anti-pope francis

>>20545932
>These people will eventually displace the secular liberals just because of their birth rates if nothing else.
I don't know if you know this, but people born in a religious family can and often do change their religious affiliation later in life. It's irrelevant whether or not secular people make enough children, as long as we can just convert yours.

For the sake of justice.
The Pope is an ordinary person, and no one needs these encyclicals.
I know the history of the Popes. I know that the Borgia family wanted to unite Italy, and they were unfairly slandered. Pope Benedict was investigating cases of pedophiles and monetary corruption, so he was removed from his post (which is nonsense).

The fact is that Catholicism has changed a lot. Catholics talk a lot about heresy in other churches, but they forget about the First Vatican Council, which came up with the dogma of the infallibility of the Pope. For Old Catholics, the words of the new Popes have no authority whatsoever.