/lit/ - Literature

>>20516113
>All claims about Latin the author can't back up in Latin are to be disregarded.
>Omnēs assertiōnēs dē linguā Latīnā quās auctor nōn Latīnē corrōborāre potest abiciendae sunt.

>>20516113
Consentio tibi

>>20516147
It's an adjective, general adverbs are introduced in later chapters.

>>20516113
Non parlour lingual latinx, solo parley in idiom Anglo & Hispanic. Verily lingam latinx, id est extra plus difficile!

>>20516113
My cockus is hardus

>>20516210
> My cockus is hardus
Gallus meus etiam durus est.

No homo


... niiisi

Niger

Holy shit this thread is off to a bad start.

>>20516256
Richardson Chief Justice de Common Banc al assises de Salisbury in Summer 1631 fuit assault per prisoner la condemne pur felony, que puis son condemnation ject un brickbat a le dit justice, que narrowly mist, et pur ceo immediately fuit indictment drawn per Noy envers le prisoner et son dexter manus ampute et fix al gibbet, sur que luy mesme immediatement hange in presence de Court.

>>20516289
Why the fuck do i understand this?

>>20516322
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_French#History

Anyone here who knows Classical Hebrew and is interested in reading something that's not the Bible? There's an old novel, supposedly in highly classicizing language, available at https://benyehuda.org/read/957

My Hebrew is not good enough yet, but I'm interested to hear from people who can read it. How hard would it be for someone who's competent in Biblical (but not Mishnaic or modern) Hebrew?

>>20516438

It seems someone is butthurt for some reason. Who hurt you, little man?

>>20516113
>All claims about Latin the author can't back up in Latin are to be disregarded.
>Omnēs assertiōnēs dē linguā Latīnā quās auctor nōn Latīnē corrōborāre potest abiciendae sunt.
Don't forget to include this in the next thread, too.

>>20516647
What are those little funky line things

>>20516668
They're macrons, they denote which vowels are to be pronounced long.

>>20516438
I am one of the few people who knows Hebrew here, so you probably won't find a satisfactory answer. I haven't read any modern creations in classical languages to learn or strengthen my skills, and now that I'm proficient, there's no reason for me to go back and read them.

>>20516675
And a real Latin speaker, not just some faggot wannabe, needs those? How come I don't see any of those macrons in old manuscripts or inscriptions?

>>20516675
Oh so the first one means that letter is pronounced as in sea instead of in bren?

>>20516705
Because you're blind

>>20516705
They looked different, but they existed. If you know them by heart for every Latin word, congratulations.

>>20516692
To be clear, the novel was not written as a reader for language learners, it's supposed to be a "serious" novel with literary merit.

I guess I'll have to find out myself, then.

Does some sort of exam, similar to the ones for modern languages which give you an evaluation from A1 to C2, exist for classical languages, and more specifically for Latin?

>>20516707
Not sea, more like say (but less diphthongy)

>>20516780
Bro wtf is a dipthong

Anyone here learn Classical Chinese?
Do you think it'd be helpful for me to learn how to pronounce these characters according to mandarin pronunciation? Ignoring whether I'd perhaps want to speak modern Chinese one day, I just mean for memorisation
Like would it aid me to associate a sound with each character or not?
Also if one wants to learn Classical Chinese only, how much more difficult am I making it for myself if I choose to focus on Classical Chinese texts versus perhaps learning modern literary Chinese for the easier texts?

>>20516113
Sorry if this is a silly question, but the dictionary entries I've don't seem to adequately address it:

What's the purpose of the word "vero" in Latin sentences? (E.g. "Iam vero caelum nubibus atris operitur, itaque obscurum est atrium.") Obviously the word means "truly" or something to that effect, but I don't get why it's thrown into so many sentences to the point where it seems like colloquial usage. Is the usage similar to the way an English speaker would throw the word "really" into sentences? (E.g. "That was really boring.")

Anyone got recommended resources for Plato's Timaeus? Commentaries, etc.

>>20516963
It also means “however”.

>>20516963
Isn't it some sort of adversative?

>>20516950
Seconding this post and also-

BVMPVS MAXIMVS

>>20516113
Threadly reminder that there is little to no difference between Classical and Ecclesiastical Latin grammar.
A dictionary is absolutely necessary, even for experienced readers of Latin.

>>20516950
If you already know Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese, use the readings that you already know that appear in words using those characters.
If not, use whichever one sounds best for you.

>>20517421
How many pages of Latin would you say it takes to get from having to look up 3/4 of all words at a pace of 1 1/2 pg/h to "I just understand it, bro"-level?

>>20517628
Hundreds. Even then you will run into words you do not know, hapax legomena, odd usages and turns of phrase, etc.
The change is gradual. Reading becomes smoother and you can get through more at a time. Usually starting a new author will slow you down a bit as you get used to their style. Best way to expedite this is to read every day, even if only a page or paragraph.
If you are looking up 3/4 words you need to study more vocab. Diederich's Basic Latin Vocabulary is a good start, knowing all of those words will get you through ~80% of classical texts. It is in the Mega

>>20517628
Adding to what the guy above me is saying, here are the ways to learn that vocabulary
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/174464096
https://app.memrise.com/course/30704/diederichs-latin-vocabulary/
https://quizlet.com/39122317/paul-b-diederichs-basic-vocabulary-of-ancient-and-medieval-latin-flash-cards/

>>20517721
2 thousand words is not that bad. I remember back when I started learning Japanese I was told that 5k words was the bare minimum for reading children's fiction but that it was necessary to get at least 30k words down to even begin to grasp 95% of anything.

>>20517747
whoever told you that was a fucking retard.

>>20517421
Kek, I was already missing this.
Say what you want, but it's thanks to these people that the thread is kept alive.

>>20517747
>to get at least 30k
I doubt I even know that many words in my first language.

Things like 'Agricola captus est' (the farmer is captured?) are using the perfect passive participle as an adjective right?

>>20516977
Proclus commentary on Timaios is good if you want something ancient

>>20518201
not really. This is the perfect passive of the verb "capio capere cepi captus" (the farmer has been captured). It is formed by adding esse to the perfect passive participle ( captus est, capti sunt,...). Similarly you can form the passive of the subjunctive perfect, of the pluperfect and future perfect (so this applies to all cases where the passive is formed whenever the perfected/completed aspect is involved).
so:
>Agricola captus est.
the farmer has been captured (and is now captured, to reflect the perfected aspect)
>Agricola captus erat.
the farmer had been captured.
>Agricola captus erit.
The farmer will have been captured (as a kind of prophecy).
>Scio, quod agricola captus sit.
I know that the farmer has been captured (the farmer being captured happened before my present knowledge of it)
>Scibam, quod agricola captus esset.
I knew that the farmer had been captured. (This is a parallel shift of the previous sentence into the past, so the relation of time between my knowledge and the capture hasn't been changed).

>>20518201
>>20518277
i mean it is used as an adjective, but only in the sense that you also would interpret the killed in "he has been killed" as an adjective (which is also the perfect pass. participle in english)

LLPSI Read Along Chapter 4

This chapter introduces the imperative, which is used to speak directly "do this" "come over here" "pick that up" This is an easy chapter if you have already gotten yourself used to the stuff learned in previous chapters

>>20518354
One difficulty I found with this is all the 'eius, eum, is, ea, id,' words. I recommend you just look these up and find a table of them by searching 'is, ea, id' online

>>20518358
Also unless I'm mistaken, this also introduces in a small amount the ablative in the word "sacculo" (being hte ablative of sacculus". I'll be honest I don't quite get it but at this level it's easily understood

>>20518354
>>20518358
>>20518360
Chad

>>20518358
You can use Wiktionary for that
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/is#Latin

>>20518360
>this also introduces in a small amount the ablative in the word "sacculo"
It was already used in the first chapter with the preposition in (in Italiā)

>>20518354
Chapter 4 questions

C

>Quot nummi sunt in sacculo Julii?
In sacculo Julii sunt decem pecunia.
>Adestne Davus in scaena prima?
Davus non est in scaena prima, is in scaena secunda.
>Quis Davum Vocat?
Medus Davum vocat.
>Suntne nummi Julii in sacculo Davi?
Nummi Julii in sacculo Davi non est, sed in sacculo Medi.
>Quid Julius ponit in sacculo Davi?
Julius peccuniam in sacculo Davi quia is bonus est.
>Quot nummi jam in sacculo Julii sunt?
In sacculo Julii novem pecunia sunt.
>Estne vacuus sacculus Medi?
In sacculo Medi sunt pecunia Julii. Est non vacuus.
(I think I screwed that one up. perhaps hard to tell where all the genitives go to)
>Cur Medus discedit?
Medus discedit quia bacculum Julii in mensa videt et is timet.
>Quem Julius vocat?
Julius Medum vocat.
>Cur Medus Julium non audit?
Medus Julium audit sed non venit quia eius pecunia habet.

>>20518457
>Nummi Julii in sacculo Davi non est
sunt
I think the rest is correct

>>20518466
ah I think you're right however if you'll allow me to complain
if nummus = money, and pecunia = coin
the english tradition would be to say "his money is not in his bag" as opposed to "his money are not in his bag" because of the odd single-plural nature of the word money.

However... I assume that's probably not the case here since latin has more clearly defined single-plural forms for nummus and pecunia.
But that's the logic I was thinking of and likely how I ran into the mistaken of writing est instead of sunt

>>20518457
1. decem nummi, not "ten money"
2. sed instead of is and maybe adest instead of est
4. non sunt
5. you forgot ponit. more elegant and clearer than "is" would be "...quia bonus servus est."
6. again nummi like in 1. it's 10 coins, not 10 money
7. again, either est pecunia or sunt summi. also non est vacuus or non vacuus est, rather than est non vacuus.
8. don't need the is in front of timet.
9. it would be pecuniam. But i also think you got the answer wrong in content, because Medus doesn't hear Julius at all after exiting the scene with his money and running away.

>>20518484
>if nummus = money, and pecunia = coin
I think it's the opposite: nummus = coin and pecunia = money (uncountable).

So what's the best edition of the vulgate I can get if I simply want to read the bible as intensive/extensive input and I don't care about theological points or anything like that?

>>20518277
>>20518307
Thanks Anon.

>>20518354
>>20518358
>>20518360
Good job.

>>20518582
I'm reading the one in the Vatican site (Nova Vulgata).

>>20518524
>>20518536

1 - ah yeah it looks like I really mixed up pecunia and nummi. Nummi sounds like money so had gone with that, I'll try to get it the right way around in the future
2 - mhm you're right sed and adest would have been better
3 - you forgot 3 and the numbering has gotten a bit messed up but it's okay
4 - The question is "who calls Davus?" no?
5 - fug I forget ponit. "Quia bonus servus est" does sound more elegant I agree
6 - nummiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
7 - I think it's the result of speaking a non infectled language like English, I feel like I have to put describing words into everything but it's not needed because the word itself describes the sentence.
8 - same
9 - I vaguely remember there was a colloquium personae chapter where medus does hear him and refuses to acknowledge Julius' call, although I suppose you're right, in this chapter it's implied he doesn't hear him. He has only been gone for about 2 minutes, he either ran away very quickly or he has worse hearing than Syra

Thanks for the critiques guys!

>>20518606
also side note. I apologise if these response come off as any sort of rejection of criticism. They are not, I agree with all the critique, I am just trying to identify mostly to myself where the mistake originated from so I am less likely to make it again in the future.

>>20518606
i just skipped 3 because it was correct, so the numbers refer to the actual number of the answer

Where my Greekbros at?

https://youtu.be/fDhEzP0b-Wo

>>20518848
χαίρε φίλε, ἡγοῦμαι ὀλιγίστους ἐνθάδε παρεἶναι δυναμένους εὖ ἀττικίζειν, ἔγωγε πάντως οὔ

>>20518354
nicenicenice

>>20516289
What this proves is the true origins of English lie as much in law Latin as in Germanic.

>>20519609
Not French?

>>20518582

>>20518582
Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine
Not the entire Vulgate but for the New Testament it is the best edition available.

>>20520081
The Latin part is just the Nova Vulgata, freely available on the Vatican site.

>>20520229
>>20520081
Clementine Vulgate is better

>>20519903
Well, yes, obviously directly from French. But you can do almost perfect calque of the above law French paragraph in Spanish, demonstrating that if law Spanish, instead of law French, had been the obligatory legal institutional language in England in the 17th century the effect on English overall would have been virtually identical.

>>20520247
Quamobrem? Nonne latinitas Novae Vulgatae melior habetur?

>>20520260
They tried to rewrite it to be "more classical" which defeats the purpose of reading Jerome in the first place. If you want a Classical edition of the Bible, then read Sebastian Castellion's verson. That is written in the style of Cicero completely from scratch and does not "edit" Jerome's text.

>>20516438
From what I read, it’s seems easy enough for a reader of Biblical Hebrew. The style and vocabulary are fairly Biblical.

>>20520691
Thanks. I wish there were a version with niqqud, but once I'm ready to read this, I'll probably no longer need them.

>>20520334
>They tried to rewrite it to be "more classical"
Sounds perfect for a beginner though

>>20521112
Did ya actually read the post my man?
> If you want a Classical edition of the Bible, then read Sebastian Castellion's verson. That is written in the style of Cicero completely from scratch and does not "edit" Jerome's text.
The Nova Vulgata is not very good. Nor is it very classical. Hence why I said "tried"

>>20521125
>That is written in the style of Cicero
Which doesn't sound good for a beginner.

>>20521133
If you are studying to be able to read Caesar, Cicero, & Virgil, then it's the kind of Latin you will be reading while in the form of a familiar story that you have likely already read. That's perfect for an intermediate person.

>>20518605
It just seems to be the plain text?
I'm not really good enough at reading Latin to use that as comfortable reading yet
>>20519987
I want a physical edition but this seems quite interesting, I could read it in on my thinkpad
>>20520081
I'm only interested in Latin

>>20521452
> It just seems to be the plain text?
> I'm not really good enough at reading Latin to use that as comfortable reading yet
What were you expecting? Pictures? Speech bubbles?

>>20521474
Well at a minimum I think it should give the definition of very low frequency words on the same page as the Latin and it should also explain idioms

Any resources for learning Phrygian?

>>20521496
I don't think something like that exists in Latin. There's not even a version with macrons, the best I could find are selections or renarrations like Lhomond.

>>20521504
Seems way too fragmentary to learn in any meaningful sense.

>>20521514
That's unfortunate, I assumed it was a pretty standard thing with Latin/Greek texts to have that kind of apparatus
Maybe I'll just go with the Dumbarton Oaks' editions

>>20521546
I just remembered, interlinear versions exist. Not exactly what you're looking for, but maybe it helps.

What is the minimum for a complete classical language starter (and ender) pack? One that will bring me to fluency and allow me to compose my own works, without dependence on internet access.
>complete grammar book
>biggest dictionary available
>at least one seminal work (bible, illiad, etc.)

I want to start amassing the components for "packs" of each language I intend to learn.

>>20521514
>>20521546
Take a look at the resources in op, you will find there several annotated bibles.

>>20521659
>complete grammar book
Pinkster, unless you know German
>biggest dictionary available
Oxford Latin Dictionary, unless you care about postclassical
>at least one seminal work
Cicero’s and Caesar’s are exemplary

All this is for when you already know the language, you won’t learn it this way.

>>20521732
You can though, that was the way it was done back in day, but it makes no sense to do it that way nowadays since resources are plentiful, i got most of my vocabulary from Anki for example. And that's not even getting into the pronunciation, without actual examples of people speaking it you are going to have the thickest accent, even knowing the IPA by heart.
>>20521659
What languages would that be? It would be extremely handy for languages without that many known resources, like Sumerian, Pali, Classical Chinese, etc.

Is extensive reading a meme or does it actually work? Should I read easy peasy graded latin books from time to time?

>>20522506
>Is extensive reading a meme
No.
>does it actually work?
Yes.
>Should I read easy peasy graded latin books
No.

>>20522520
I'm too retarded to do extensive reading with real texts, fra

>>20522506
I can't speak for classical languages (still in the very early stages of starting Latin myself, going through llpsi), but with Japanese at least it made a hell of a difference when I switched from intensive to extensive reading. My general comprehension and ability to think in the language has gone up leaps and bounds since I began to leap around from manga to manga, graded reader to grader reader, and light novel to light novel as opposed to trying to intensively tackle a single novel at a time. The thing that really made the difference in this switch was when I finally stopped looking up every word in a dictionary, and learned to just keep on going through a work without stopping, picking up terms and new grammar conventions inductively/via context as I'm able to. Researching everything you don't know is necessary at first, but an absolute drag a year into a language, and can kill your drive to engage with the target language by making it feel like a chore. Once you stop forcing yourself to do this, you may find that you start to genuinely enjoy the language acquisition process, and it's only up from there.

>>20522506
It absolutely works, it's the only way to learn how to read and learning languages in general, ofc for speaking/hearing it's about comprehensible speech input
Memorising vocab and learning grammar doesn't work, you need to be reading a lot of material
>Should I read easy peasy graded latin books from time to time?
Just read LLPSI
As far as the distinction between extensive and intensive input goes, what really matters is the volume of text you read
Quantity is far more important than quality

>>20522546
>I switched from intensive to extensive reading.
What's the difference? Explain this to me as if I was retarded.

Doing a study group on ancients Greek. Based on popular choice and advice from the seasoned, our study group for Greek will use the Reading Greek textbooks, a group of three very acclaimed works both for classroom and self-teaching. If you’re in please take this time to get copies or find them online, also please familiarize yourself with the Greek alphabet if you have not already, and download a Greek keyboard for ur phone

The VC group will be held on /lit/‘s philosophy discord
https://discord.gg/pwdYeVCsQc

>>20522546
Interesting answer. Thanks, fren.
After doing that, have you practiced intensive reading in Japanese, too? For example, by reading more complex novels.

>>20522556
>Just read LLPSI
I can't tell if this entire post is some elaborate ironic shitpost or actual good advice.

>>20522585
That's not good advice. Read a grammar with it.

>>20522559
I consider intensive language learning to be going through a single work (in the case of Japanese it could be a full novel, a more difficult manga series, or a fairly complex/adult-targeting anime series) with a fine-tooth comb, attempting to grasp every single word and grammar structure by looking up any and all of them (in a dictionary, in a grammar textbook, or some other learning reference/resource) that you don't know as soon as you encounter it (or immediately after the chapter/volume/episode, at least). Extensive language learning, by contrast, would be the process of going through many works at once without really looking up particular words (or grammatical patterns) that you don't know unless you're constantly encountering it and unable to figure it out at least generally from context. So, an example of what I do in a day that I consider "extensive" learning would be to watch an episode of an anime, practice writing 5-10 kanji, read a single graded reader story, shorter novel chapter, or manga chapter, read or watch a short grammar lesson (like a cure dolly vid or a take kim section, in the case of Japanese) and then repeat this cycle but with a different work for the reading each successive round. I.e. it may be a graded reader short story for the first round of the day, then a Pokemon manga chapter for the second, then a chapter from a kids' novel, and so on and so forth until I stop studying for the day. By doing something like this, you space out your learning so you don't get tired and stop quickly, but also ultimately expose yourself to a far greater variety of materials than you otherwise would working through a single novel at a time.

>>20522580
I ultimately intend to switch back to going through one or two works at a time when I'm far enough along in my comprehension, but at the present moment it simply isn't worth it to do so. The gains I get from swapping back and forth between works and attempting to learn through context (and an anki vocab deck, forgot to mention that in describing my cycles) as mentioned in my other posts above is so incredibly effective compared to the intensive approach at this stage of the acquisition process for me that going back would just be a misuse of my learning time, in my current opinion.

>>20522676
Thanks again

>>20522580
Not that guy, but I started off with pee feitsh and impregnation fetish rape untranslated h-manga. Then I moved onto lolicon h-manga. After that I got into lolicon pornographic games (eroge), which led me into regular eroge. After about a year or so of experience reading eroge about sunflower fields and Japanese shaman girls, I got into fantasy novels like Teito Monogatari and some Japanese science fiction works like Crest of the Stars. From there, I started getting into historical fiction, which led me into Meiji era (late 19th century/early 20th century) Japanese literature. I read a bit of stuff by Akutagawa, Dazai, Tanizaki, and Natsume Soseki.
From there I just got bored from Japanese stuff and went back to my old passion, which was reading Greek and Roman history books.

>>20522736
Sounds like bullshit, but I'm gonna believe it.

>>20522661
>practice writing 5-10 kanji
lol

>>20522546
>going through llpsi
Are you one of those guys who fell for the
>muh 6 Brazillion hours of raw input and no output during the first 5 years of learning
meme?

I started reading some Sallust today, and I don't quite know what to think.

So there are grammatical things that are weird (he seems to love historical infinitives, I guess fuere is some weird form of esse, and there's roughly a million idiomatic ways to use habere). But he starts his history of the Cataline conspiracy talking about how before Cyrus conquered Persia and before the Athenians fought the Spartans, "vita hominum sine cupiditate agitabatur". Then he talks about how Rome had its perfect golden age when people only cared about virtue and glory and disdained luxury before they were corrupted.

It makes for great prose, but is he being serious here? Or is this some sort of rhetorical device to underscore how morally corrupt Cataline was? Or does he really believe war and greed just didn't exist in the past? I can never tell with ancient authors.

>>20522826
>is he being serious here? Or is this some sort of rhetorical device
yes
Sallust held aristocratic ideals. He believed that contemporary Rome was in a state of cultural decay and decadence far removed from the glories of previous generations. He also was highlighting the baseness of the Catiline conspiracy as representative of the corruption that was plaguing Rome.
A 'noble' Roman would be aware that war existed but think that there were honorable ways of waging it. His exemplars would be tales from the past, of the previous ages, golden, silver etc. This theme runs throughout classical works and particularly in Sallust, of man's fall from heights of chivalry.

>>20522882
Yeah, but there's a difference between 'things were better 50 years ago', and 'our ancestors were perfect moral exemplars who never knew vice'. One I can take seriously as a historian, the other not so much.

>>20522567
I'm in.

What's reading Italian like for the anons here who know Latin but didn't study Italian?

>>20523132
It's like Latin but with moustaches and flailing arms, very Lovecraftian.

>>20523147
Do you think you'd be able to just start reading Italian literature with a dictionary or are the two languages too different?

>>20523132
I learned Italian before Latin. It helped with vocab, but not much else.

>>20523191
So if I read a lot of Latin texts and then I decide that I want to start reading Italian texts I should just consider it a whole different language, study the grammar and then go from there?
I was hoping I could just start reading because I find studying grammar and textbooks to be boring as fuck

>>20523205
There is some overlap in grammar. Knowing verb tenses and conjugations will be useful and fairly similar to modern Italian. Knowing known declensions will be less useful since Italian doesn't use cases.

>>20523132
Mainly uncanny, you can definitely see that they are related to each other through the fact that you get words that are literally the same in pretty much every large enough sentence, even though they look out of place because the cases or gender or etc., would be all wrong, kind of like: englishen lokinlo tis formana. You can also tell pretty obviously that one evolved from the other mainly because italian looks more like a modern language, specially the word order and excess of articles which are closer to modern western european languages than Latin. Vocabulary is noticeably different, but you can maybe get the hang of it if you run an autistic analysis of the sentence.

In general it looks like an easier language, desu.

>>20523170
It's simple, Italian is to Latin what niggerspeak is to English.
Just imagine for every sentence you say, a violent savage coming down from the north, killing everybody you love and then discovering a love for spices and macaroni.
Roma in Italia e
La pizza in papaia a

>>20523170
I know Spanish, and I know Latin grammar is very different from Spanish grammar, so I imagine that Italian would probably feel like it's superficially more similar to Latin even though semantically and syntactically it's more similar to English than it is to Classical Latin.

>>20523228
Correct, except morphologically Spanish is often closer to Latin because of classicizing efforts in the 17 & 18 centuries

LLPSI Read Along Chapter 5

In which Marcus continues to engage in his inner barbarian ways

>>20523301
This chapter more properly introduces the ablative and as far as I can see is the main focus of the chapter

>>20523303
But it's also just alot of vocabularly. Personally I found this chapter difficult at first because of that. But once you familiarise yourself with the vocabularly, you can then more easily focus on the grammar

>>20523307
There's also more of those is, ea, id words. They shouldn't be any trouble if you just look up a table for them.
I think they're just pronouns, (pro - in favour of, noun - name). So they are used in place of the actual name they refer to. Like his, her, he, etc.

>>20523313
Also 'Vir' means husband as well as just man, that really confused me for a long time.

Fuck bros I love LLPSI so fucking much

>Many lakes are seen by them among the mountains

Would you translate this into Latin as 'they see many lakes among the mountains' or is there a special way i'm not aware of?

>>20523301
Chapter 5 questions

C
>Num Julius solus in villa habitat?
Julius non habitat in villa solo, sed is habitant cum liberis eius.
>Quot filios et quot filias habent Julius et Aemilia?
Julius et Aemilia habent tres liberos, duo pueri et una filia.
I feel like I was supposed to use the ablative here somewhere..
>Ubi est impluvium?
Impluvium in atrio est.
>Ubi dormiunt servi?
Servi in parvo cubiculo dormiunt.
>Adestne Julius in peristylo cum Aemilia?
Julius non adest sed abest ab Aemilia.
>Ubi est Julius?
Julius in oppido Tusculo est cum servis eius.
>Estne Aemilia sola in peristylo?
Aemilia non sola in peristylo, sed ea cum liberis earum est.
>Quid Julia agit in horto?
Julia carpit rosas pulchras in horto.
>Cur pueri Juliam rident?
Pueri Juliam rident quia ei eam rosis habet.

>>20523401
also I think I could have done with practicing suum words instead of eius words with a couple of these

>>20523401
>Cur pueri Juliam rident?
Pueri Juliam rident quia ei eam rosis habet.
I should have put vident somewhere in there

>>20523481
Pueri Juliam rident quia ei vident eam rosis habet.
There we go I stopped being lazy

>>20523485
stop trying to write things that you grammatically don't know yet. correctly that sentence would go "quia vident eam rosas habere", but that construction comes up in chapter 10. And btw they laugh because Marcus says she is ugly not because she has roses.

>>20523383
use the passive videntur.

>>20522736
What a trip kek

>>20523500
wow dude gimmie a break we're only on chapter 5 here

>>20523228
Spanish morphology is different from Latin, but grammar is similar: verbal tenses are used almost identically, very similar use of direct and indirect complements, etc.

>>20523500
also it's important to write things you don't understand so that you push yourself.

if I responded to all the questions like
>Ubi est Julius
abest
>Estne Julius vir Aemliae?
est
>Estne Roma in Asia?
non

I wouldn't learn anything

>>20523301
>>20523303
>>20523307
>>20523313
Based

>>20523502
Would it be correct to use ab eis since its 'by them'.

>>20523401
I'm a beginner too, so take this with a grain of salt
>>Num Julius solus in villa habitat?
>Julius non habitat in villa solo, sed is habitant cum liberis eius.
solus, habitat
>>Quot filios et quot filias habent Julius et Aemilia?
>Julius et Aemilia habent tres liberos, duo pueri et una filia.
pueros, filiam
>I feel like I was supposed to use the ablative here somewhere..
>>Ubi est impluvium?
>Impluvium in atrio est.
>>Ubi dormiunt servi?
>Servi in parvo cubiculo dormiunt.
>>Adestne Julius in peristylo cum Aemilia?
>Julius non adest sed abest ab Aemilia.
>>Ubi est Julius?
>Julius in oppido Tusculo est cum servis eius.
>>Estne Aemilia sola in peristylo?
>Aemilia non sola in peristylo, sed ea cum liberis earum est.
eius
>>Quid Julia agit in horto?
>Julia carpit rosas pulchras in horto.
>>Cur pueri Juliam rident?
>Pueri Juliam rident quia ei eam rosis habet.
quia ea rosas habet

>>20523535
Yes. Without "ab eis" it's the impersonal "one can see lakes".

Do I want athenaze or reading greek?
I can get reading greek for much cheaper than athenaze from what I see online

>>20524091
Reading Greek
Use Mega for Athenaze to supplement it
Reading Greek is in Mega too but I find a physical textbook to be much better

>>20524122
Any benefits to reading greek over athenaze?

>>20524262
Athenaze if you're starting out. Reading Greek has a fantastic reference grammar section at the back and the exercises/passages are little more challenging (in my opinion). Also I agree with the anon you quoted, get the physical copy of "grammar and exercises" then download the answer book/key from libgen.

Mentula in Culus est
Mentula in Culus et os sunt
Mentula quoque in aures sunt
Est mihi pedico tu?
Mihi pedico tu!

in aliis verbis, bumpus

>doing a presentation on some local Roman gravestones
>motherfuckers abbreviated absolutely everything

just fucking engrave smaller letters you cunts

>>20525326
It makes sense, they probably had to pay per carved letter. Even for mildy well off people, paying for a gravestone just feels like daylight robbery

>>20525297
It should be
>Le hairless homo

>>20516150
>>Omnēs assertiōnēs dē linguā Latīnā quās auctor nōn Latīnē corrōborāre potest abiciendae sunt.
English word order

>>20525381
He used LLPSI

>>20525381
>>20525393
> All assertions of the language Latin that the author not in Latin corroborate can to be discarded are.
very English

What would a proper Latin word order look like, in your opinion?

>>20516113
What are your favorite words belonging to the 3rd declension ?

>>20525426
>What would a proper Latin word order look like, in your opinion?
Dē Linguā Latīnā, quās auctor corrōborāre Latīnē nōn potest, abiciendae omnēs assertiōnēs sunt.


If you insist on using that phrasing. If you change the wording and rewrite it completely you can do something better probably.

Abiciendae sunt assertiōnēs omnēs dē linguā Latīnā quās auctor corrōborāre Latīnē nōn potest

>>20523191
Vocabulary is EVERYTHING though

there's no such thing as "proper Latin word order", it's a guideline, not a rule, aside from prepositions and such of course

>>20525485
Assertiones quas de lingua latina corroborare sunt auctor abiciendae Latine potest omnes non

>>20525433
βασιλεύς

>>20525656
This is just gibberish.

>>20525666
Now make it grammatical with the fewest changes possible

>Mavors, nubifero seu tu procumbis in Haemo
>seu te cana gelu Rhodope seu remige Medo
>sollicitatus Athos seu caligantia nigris
>ilicibus Pangaea tenent, accingere mecum
>et Thracas defendere tuos. si laetior adsit
>gloria, vestita spoliis donabere quercu

>>20525606
I'm also interested if it's just guidelines, that's why I asked. That said, I still don't see why the alternative orders posted are any better:

>>20525460
> Dē Linguā Latīnā
Putting this at the start of the sentence makes it seem like there were other assertions unrelated to Latin we were talking about, or even other topics than Latin.
> corrōborāre Latīnē nōn potest
See below.

>>20525485
> Abiciendae sunt
This emphasizes what should happen with those assertions, which is fine, but...
> assertiōnēs omnēs
> corrōborāre Latīnē nōn potest
A&G says:
> [...] adjectives of quantity, [...] and adverbs, tend to precede the word or words to which they belong.
so there's no reason to change these over the original, except maybe to bring the nōn closer to potest.

>>20524058
Thanks Anon.

>>20525858
I would write it as
> Omnēs dē linguā Latīnā assertiōnēs quās auctor Latīnē corrōborāre nōn potest abiciendae sunt.
Not much different than before, but with assertiōnēs next to quās, and the nōn next to potest.

How many three letter words are there in Latin?

>>20526004
res
ars
nox

those came to mind

>>20526010
There are many, many more, even if just talking about nouns.
uva, ius, mel, lac, fur, dea, fax, vis

>>20526010
cum
sex

sadly no tit or ass

>>20526010
I think there's a few more anon.

>>20526004
sus

Does anyone know of a good unabridged Latin dictionary that doesn't cost $400?
Im going to try and learn Latin, and i assume that knowing both the definition and the history behind the words will be very helpful in reading and understanding Latin texts.

>>20521732
>you won’t learn it this way
Then what more components should be included? The idea is that someone locked in a room with only these books could make it to the end and create stuff on their own.
>>20521787
>What languages would that be?
Personally, I want to read & write in Ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic. Already well into Latin with the 2 meme books and supplementary PDFs, so its less of a concern for me to prepare a complete pack for it.
>It would be extremely handy for languages without that many known resources, like Sumerian, Pali, Classical Chinese
Look up "Language Learning Pack" on tpb, they have some weird ones like Cuneiform and Egyptian Hieroglyphs. Partly my inspiration but they include too much with little quality control, and obviously aren't physical.

>>20527012
It's been said like 20 times already but Cassells

>>20527012
Just get Cassell's Latin Dictionary. If you care about etymology, just learn the Romance languages along with latin.

>>20526041
What about dic, nec, and pix?

>>20516963
It means "but" in this example

>>20516707
>>20516780
>>20516791
FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK USE IPA

>>20516950
Seconding >>20517614 that if you already are familiar with some Sinosphere language you should use that reading tradition, but you should definitely use SOME Sinosphere reading tradition (if it doesn't matter much which Mandarin at least has the most resources) because the structure of the characters only makes sense with that. Most characters have a phonetic component. See this piece for a basic idea of how Chinese characters work.
http://zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm

>>20518090
You probably do, educated native speakers usually do, though they often underestimate. You could go take a quiz that estimates it if you like.

>>20522546
This sounds like a good idea.

>>20522736
Wow, I was planning to be the first person to teach themself a language by reading hentai but it seems like you've beaten me to the punch. I guess it's not surprising.

>>20522593
It's not really that necessary. Knowing about a language and speaking a language are two different things.
>>20525598
Nah, grammar is pretty important too for understanding a language. Without it all you have is a bag of words but you don't know who's doing what to whom when.

>>20525598
Not in fucking Latin, try reading a paragraph (also known as a sentence) of Cicero without knowing exactly what's happening in the grammar, at such a high level that you can ALSO recognize and bracket the weird idiomatic things

>>20527513
>Knowing about a language and speaking a language are two different things.
You might as well make a list of this Reddit quotes and just read off of that instead of discussing this topic like these are original ideas of your own.

Using a grammar book is a basic thing done in language learning for modern and ancient languages unless you are some kind of stubborn new age uni troon. It becomes incredibly important when studying a language from another linguistic sub branch with no mass media available for consumption, no living native speakers, complex and antiquated grammar, and a high degree of inflection.

Studying a grammar *primer* and combining it with a graded reader is not the same as reading a *reference* grammar for something like Sumerian just to study the morphology, then reading with a dictionary.

You can say that this is controversial because you are just repeating someone else who said that it is controversial, but it's not. Believe it or not, not EVERY old idea is a bad idea.

>>20527528
It's not inherently a bad thing, but it's not really necessary. In any case you haven't really refuted that quote's basic point- there's a difference between language acquisition and metalinguistic knowledge.

How do I go about learning the Greek alphabet?

>>20527566
write it out 100 times while pronouncing each letter aloud as you write it.

>>20527566
Listening to audio while following along to the written text can help.

>>20527566
It takes like an hour, just keep reading it.

>>20527566
Anki deck

>>20527537
There is no difference between knowing the meaning-building components of a language and knowing the meaning-modifying components of it. Regardless of whether you're learning Toki Pona or Finnish, you need a prior conception of what the basic structure of a sentence in the language is, how the elements of the sentence can work along with others for the sake of giving off slightly different meanings, and which parts either remain constant or change, in accordance to the role they play in the sentence. You don't need to be able to recall that an accusative case declension is used in referring to the indirect object of a sentence, that is found in the predicate, but you do need to understand that, in a sentence like:
Johnny's dog made the day worse for Jack by ruining his flowerbed
"the day" is something that "made...worse" befalls upon, that "for Jack" is something that is affected, although not directly acted upon by "made..worse". You don't really need explicit grammatical terminology and sentence tree diagram knowledge, but what is necessary to know is that certain things do or are done by or unto others in a sentence, all of which jointly affects the image conveyed by it.

>>20527600
>You gotta know grammar, but don't call it grammar
Holy fuck kys a priori intuitonistic fag. You're not gonna learn anything just by magically expecting that you'll figure it out somehow by the means of reasoning without making use of learning materials and reference books. You're not a cryptography expert and you'll never be an expert at anything if you think you can just wait and expect knowledge to come to you without engaging the scientific literature on the subject. Stop being so fucking smug and admit you're not as smart as you think you are.

>>20527600
Yes, but the actual understanding of it directly as language and the explicit knowledge of the grammatical analysis are two different things.

>>20527537
>you haven't really refuted that quote's basic point- there's a difference between language acquisition and metalinguistic knowledge.
Yes I did. A *grammar primer* is a beginner's course designed for language learners and it is not the same as a *reference grammar* which is for philologists and linguists.

The only way you could possibly think books like Wheelock are no different from reference grammars would be if you have only read one, but not the other, or if you never read either in the first place. I won't presume which happens to be your case.

>>20527628
How did you learn your native language? Your parents couldn't have explained its grammar to you, because you would have had to first know the language in which to hear it explained.
>>20527630
Courses like Wheelock's are still structured to encourage translation/transverbalization as means to understanding rather than understanding the Latin as Latin (or whatever.)

>>20527629
Understanding contributes to the incorporation of new knowledge together with older knowledge and exposure to further facts to be known is necessary to increase one's potential understanding of collections of fact which presume knowledge of those same facts in order to introduce even more facts to be learnt.
This holds true for language learning in general and for every subject which is not totally contained within itself and relies upon more than just itself in order to have the proper notion of it grasped.

>>20527628
This times a thousand. The amount of smung condescending pseudo-intellectual midwittery that always corrupts these threads is fucking toxic. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. These people live off the whims of internet grifters pushing trendy ideas from the SAME classics departments that are dropping language learning as a requirement for a CLASSICS degree because their students can't reach any proficiency in the language.

Princeton University has a pretty famous antigrammar "living Latin" program. They are also one of the schools that has ditched the requirement to learn Latin or Greek for a Classics degree. I rest my case.

>https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/
>https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2021/06/princeton-university-latin-greek-classics-language-requirement-accessibility-op-ed

>Courses like Wheelock's are still structured to encourage translation/transverbalization as means to understanding rather than understanding the Latin as Latin (or whatever.)
Again quoting someone else from a book you never read. There are reading exercises at the end of the chapters. Whether or not they are translated or just sight read for comprehension is up to you. You don't have to translate anything. But you wouldn't know because you never read it.

>>20527656
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfnw6oBq9w
Also, here's the program that effectively killed Latin at Princeton.

***Warning horrendous Burger Latin***

>>20527635
>How did you learn your native language?
It must have been by the binding together of images and sounds observed into word-concepts which were incrementally molded into sets of combinations made use of in propositions that differed in the effect they produced upon people whom I uttered them before. Even if grammar itself was not explicitly taught to me by conjugation tables and syntactic diagrams in the earliest of my days, it must have somehow created an artifice in my mind of such a kind that it allowed me to later on be capable of learning other languages by the means of conscious study.

The only reason why those who use Wheelock end up with such poor reading skills compared to LLPSI is not because of the grammar approach but simply because they don't read enough Latin
Learning and implementing grammar rules is not enough, you need a lot of input which LLPSI provides and Wheelock doesn't, it's just simply not enough reading and leads to having to use the grammar translation method of 'reading'
People who do the best with LLPSI always start with a short grammar primer and then approach the texts of LLPSI, firstly you learn much faster, secondly you learn to develop superior skills at noticing the grammar when reading LLPSI and thirdly it reinforces the lessons of LLPSI better and you come away with a greater knowledge and skill with Latin Grammar than if you just used LLPSI alone

>>20527675
This is the correct take

I really can't believe people are still debating this faggot shit

It's exactly like a /k/ thread filled with kids who have never touched a gun or been in a combat or self defense situation arguing passionately about what the best gun is

>>20527675
>LLPSI DOES work, but only if you do a bunch of other stuff that the book itself doesn't tell you to do and that you'd still have to if you did without it and used some other learning material instead
Hmmm, that reminds me of a few other general threads I've been on before (looking at you, /g/dpt and /ic/)

>>20527688
No?
LLPSI absolutely works by itself

>>20527696
Nobody ever jumped straight from LLPSI to reading Virgil.

>>20527675
>>20527664
>>20527656
>>20527642
>>20527635
>>20527630
>>20527629
>>20527629
scribite iterum Latine

>>20527703
You do realize people are arguing about how to read a good level of reading in authentic Latin and not how to write shitty pig latin on the internet to win autistic arguments right? You have any idea how many asian people can read Chinese characters but forget how to write them?

>>20527707
If you want to lecture us on the proper way to learn Latin, prove your claims by using the language or stop shitting up the thread.

>>20527716
>using the language
Reading is using the language. If you want to give people a purity test, then post a text and ask for a summary instead of asking people to compose an essay in barbaric neo-Latin.

>>20527718
Is the English of any non-native speaker, however eloquent, "barbaric neo-English"? Did Joseph Conrad write in "barbaric neo-English"?

>>20527722
Being an ESL in 2022 is not anywhere near comparable to writing on an internet forum in a 2,000 year old language arguing about textbooks.

But die on that hill if you wish. I'm done with this nonsense. I said what I have to say. Go read something instead of making shitty compositions.

>>20527718
I agree with this but the problem is that all easily accessible texts have been translated and can be googled.

If you're going to do this, do what students have to do on their exams: make people show their work. You have to identify every form and all structures, justify your translation, etc.

>>20526041

>>20527701
Well a part of LLPSI is reading Virgil so idk what you're talking about
Yes the texts are abridged but the grammar is still there

>>20527718
>Yes, I know the one true path to Latin mastery
>No, I can't write a few sentences

>>20527716
Honestly my output skills are really poor and it's too stressful to try to write something because I know it'll be filled with errors.

>>20527725
Why is it not comparable? They're both writing in a non-native language.

>>20527566
jesus, you people are helpless. just learn it

>>20527745
>Yes, I know the one true path to Latin mastery
Looks like your English reading skills are about as good as your Latin since you are inventing fake quotes and strawmen.
>No, I can't write a few sentences
You're right. I'm learning to read, not write. I haven't practiced writing at all because I have no interest in it. I don't know how I'll ever recover from not being a part of an autistic fringe movement.

>>20527679
At least the inpootfags can back up their position with empirical, scientific evidence.

>>20527703
Sine metu scriberem, si lingua latina facile loqui possem.

>>20527760
>brags about having evidence
>doesn't show any evidence
>quotes a geologist who makes vlogs on youtube and Reddit moderators
Just nuke this thread already. Someone talk about Classical Chinese or something please for the love of God.

Uh...how do I learn to translate from Classical Chinese into Attic Greek?

>>20527768
Get Bible translations in both languages and use that for reference. You'll have to use Koine instead of Attic though.

>>20527759
The idea of writing in Latin as a non-native speaker is not an 'autistic fringe movement', it's what every educated man in Europe did for centuries. Newton wrote in Latin. Descartes wrote in Latin. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Latin. And so on.

>>20527779
>every educated man in Europe did for centuries.
People who did not learn the way you are prescribing people learn.

>>20527765
https://magisterp.com/2018/07/02/studies-showing-the-ineffectiveness-grammar-instruction/
https://books.google.com/books?id=HrhkAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=Approaches%20and%20Methods%20in%20Language%20Teaching&hl=es&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=_udVA--sg4kC&lpg=PA251&dq=grammar-translation%20latin&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://doi.org/10.1017/S2058631020000513
http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2019/03/argumentum-ad-ignorantiam.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWOjBulEyrs

>>20527779
Here's the difference: they actually had other people with whom to speak and correspond with in Latin. Today, if an autist wants to learn to speak and write Latin, who will they use it with?

>>20527783
This
People like Erasmus who promoted writing in Latin also thought learning Latin by studying grammar was useless and that you needed to read Latin in order to acquire it

>>20527787
One of the many other Latinists?

>>20527800
I wasn't advancing grammar translation, sorry if I was misunderstood. I think living communication in Latin and a natural method approach go together like hand in glove.

>>20527809
Ah alright, I was a bit confused by this conversation everyone just blends together

>>20527718
*writes in barbaric neo-Latin*

>>20527803
I remember hearing some figure that probably only about 10 thousand people can speak Latin at a proficient level. Most scholars nowadays can't speak Latin. You have better chances of using a Native American lamguage kek.

>>20527783
There's hundreds of grammar books written in languages from all over Europe from the Middle Ages onwards. We know students went into grammar schools, where they started learning Latin grammar at the age of 6 or 7 or so, that they had versions of classics with copious notes explaining more difficult passages in easier to understand Latin (as is the case with the ad usum Delphini versions), that they had a space to practice speaking in Latin in classrooms, where teachers could correct them on their mistakes and teach them new words every now and then, and that they had many things to write in Latin, from formal essays and practice sermons to persomal notes and letters to people from other countries. Latin was a formally studied language, but it was also a living written and spoken language. It wasn't just a tool for reading old dusty books and ancient inscriptions found in archaeological sites.

>>20527785
>https://magisterp.com/2018/07/02/studies-showing-the-ineffectiveness-grammar-instruction/
"The highly-motivated independent adult learner can, and probably will do anything they want, and/or feel is helping them regardless of any proof. K-12 students are NOT those people." These studies are trying to find out how to keep bored middle schoolers from dropping a class that their parents forced them to take and they are citing grammar as the reason.

>https://books.google.com/books?id=HrhkAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=Approaches%20and%20Methods%20in%20Language%20Teaching&hl=es&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false
He's actually complaining about German and French being taught "like classical languages" lmao.

>https://books.google.com/books?id=_udVA--sg4kC&lpg=PA251&dq=grammar-translation%20latin&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false
"method of teaching a modern foreign language". Did you even read these? These are all complaining about modern languages being taught like dead languages, not about how dead languages are being taught.

>https://doi.org/10.1017/S2058631020000513
An opinion piece, not evidence of a study.

>https://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2019/03/argumentum-ad-ignorantiam.html
Blogpost by an unemployed "poet"

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWOjBulEyrs
Christians arguing about pronunciation.


None of this is evidence of grammar primers being harmful or ineffective.

>>20527825
>It wasn't just a tool for reading old dusty books and ancient inscriptions found in archaeological sites.
You guys go out of your way to misrepresent the opposing side as much as you can. Anyone that doesn't have a fucking hard on for the bald man must be some Edwardian professor who came 100 years in the future via time machine to argue that Latin should be studied like math.

Have you ever learned a language before? And I don't mean ESLing through YouTube videos. I mean have you ever bought a French or German textbook? What about Russian? They all look like Wheelock.

>>20527824
The Internet makes them a lot easier to find.

>>20527826
French and Germans ARE dead lanugages though

>>20527800
Erasmus' friend, the English humanist John Colet, a follower of the Florentine Platonic Academy who read Plutarch and Plato in only recently available Latin translation but would have died to read them in Greek, couldn't learn Greek despite having an acquaintance with it and ample access to Greek texts, because "input" isn't enough and one needs grammar study. The only sure way to learn Greek then was with a Greek-speaking teacher and they were scarce. Erasmus himself, one of the greatest classicists and humanists of all time, taught himself mostly via "input" between 1500-1504 (it took 4 years before he would say he knew the language) and he probably had to acquire Greek teachers to teach him grammar too, we just don't know their names. He also had to abandon Hebrew, which was much easier to learn then, because he had no time for it with the Greek.

So you could do that, and if you're as smart as Erasmus (and smarter than Colet), you could maybe learn it in 3-4 years of inputting. Or you know, you could take a normal college course and be reading Plato in a few months like Colet never could despite being the main transmitter of Renaissance Platonism to England.

>>20527843
Not yet. Immigrants are still learning French and German and the natives are still reluctant to giving up their native languages in favor of Arabic and Turkish.

Hey guys how can I get more INPOOOOT for my Ugaritic exam next week? I don't want to just learn how the language works like I'm dissecting a dead thing, I want true ACQUISITION. My teacher wants me to read a grammar primer, but people who use those things don't REALLY know a language.

you DO own a toga right?

>>20527836
>Latin should be studied like math.
I don't think you get it. You don't study Latin/Russian/German/Finnish like math. Rather, math is a language with a structure and semantic components that must be studied and practiced in order to be taken a hold of.

>>20527844
"Reading" i.e. deciphering into your native language. (inb4 "what's the difference", that is the most monolingual thing you could possibly say.)

>>20527855
Languages are all just games.

>>20527855
>You don't study Latin/Russian/German/Finnish like math
No shit, I was saying that's NOT what the opposition is saying, but people are treating their position as though it was the case. Read again:
>must be some Edwardian professor who came 100 years in the future via time machine to argue that Latin should be studied like math.

>>20527848
Rip a hole in the space time continuum so you can go talk to natives. Get me a mcrib while you're at it please

>>20527844
>you could take a normal college course and be reading Plato in a few months like Colet never could despite being the main transmitter of Renaissance Platonism to England.
hacking through a text with a dictionary with a half understanding of the language isn't reading

>>20527862
I just want to make sure that I am not deciphering Ugaritic. I want to learn Ugaritic the same way that child would learn for true acquisition. I need more inpoooooooot

>>20527867
All reading is ultimately just visualization and imagining sensations. Why should it matter to you if you gotta use one language as an intermediary or not?

>>20527867
No but it's a step above watching youtube videos about magic input theory for another year while even the shittiest students experience the joy of reading real Greek by accepting they have to hold their nose and trudge through the initial difficulty curve phase of something for once in their lives.

>>20527867
Can you teach me how to truly understand Ugaritic without using a grammar or a dictionary. I keep asking, but inpoooooooot bros are not being very helpful. I need true acquisition, not grammar which is for old white men.

>>20527868
To acquire language like a baby you must return to baby. Hire a dominatrix from craigslist who is willing to be your mommy mistress. Wear a diaper, suckle her teat, call her mommy and go goo goo ga ga while watching youtube videos about your target language. And no it will not work if you do not shit the diaper, its called immersion and you only get as much as you put into it

>>20527893
But the real question is can I learn Hittite with ANKI?

Guys lets revive Sumerian as a lviing language. It's totally not autistic or fringe because Akkadians used it as a second language for a thousand years by not studying any grammar. Why can't we do the same? We just need some way to get some more INPOOOT

>>20527911
You do you

>>20527901
based

Anki isn't for learning. It's for reviewing stuff you already know and understand.

>>20527867
>learn by input
>noooo not pure input, guided input
>noooooo not that much guidance
starting to feel like you just want a sweet spot of not having to actually learn shit

can i sell you a "Learn Latin While You Sleep! Naturally Absorb the Language Like a Baby!" tape? it's microsoft sam reading vergil phonetically for 200 hours

>>20527924
I was watching a YouTube who was recommended to me by a moderator on Reddit and he said that you can learn a language with Anki as long as you get enough INPOOOT

>>20527888
then you don't know it. simple as. your knowledge of it (and probably everyone's) is akin to someone who has gone through a german for reading course-- just good enough to hack through a text with a dictionary and reference grammar

>>20527928
Are you saying that I need more INPOOOOT???

>>20527926
Anki can help for remembering vocabulary but it won't teach you a language on its own. (I usually prefer if I can to make cards with definitions from a monolingual dictionary on the other side rather than translations.)

>>20527928
input. retard. input. (you're a fucking retard)

>>20527925
>>20527936

retarded troll. you obviously have minimal experience learning languages. if you dont get input its very difficult to make any coherent utterance. this is a standard thing accepted by every linguist in SLA, even those most opposed to krashen.

>>20527955
Too bad there are no anilingual dictionaries for dead languages

>>20527962
B-b-but muh massive incomprehensible all-day-long stream of input..

>>20527965
There are for Latin, at least.

>>20527928
Are German for reading courses really that bad?
I'm reading German for Reading by Karl Sandberg atm and I assumed that I'd be able to read German texts quite quickly afterwards, assuming that I had enough input and read at the appropriate level (I was planning on reading Harry Potter translations)
From what I understand these courses are typically done in order for a student to learn to read the language well enough that they can read German research and so considering just how much reading a postgrad student has to do, I really doubt they're sitting there struggling to translate each sentence in a paper with a grammar and dictionary when they have a dozen other papers they need to read that week

Input fags getting btfo. I guess people have had enough finally. Good riddance. Back to language learning. Time for a reset:

1. Anyone learning any Germanic languages like Old Norse, Old English, or Gothic?

2. Anyone partially studying one anguage for cultural context on another? Like some Ugaritic for Hebrew or parts of Sumerian for Akkadian?

3. Has anyone hear actually studied any eastern languages like Sanskrit or Classical Chinese? Seems people complain that it's always about Latin, but whenever people ask about other languages, they rarely get any answers. (trying to fix that here)

4. For those of you who went from Koine Greek to Biblical Hebrew, how jarring was that for you? Was it your first non-Indo European language?

5. Are there many secular things to read in Coptic and Syriac?

6. What's your favorite Latin textbook written before 1920?

7. What modern language do you think is more useful for a classical language polyglot - French or German?

8. Which classical language has the best writing system and why?

9. What are the best Greek textbooks not named Athenaze?

10. What are useful YouTube channels on this topic that aren't just input/anki faggotry?

>>20527844
>be reading Plato in a few months
the difference is that Erasmus wouldn't have called "reading" what someone taking an intensive course in Greek will show after 4 months. I was also starting to "read" Plato at that time, but I wouldn't have said that I knew the language. Nothing will get you to actual reading levels after having studied the grammar besides reading thousands upon thousands of sentences. Also I doubt Erasmus would have had much troubles with the grammar, since it is very similar to Latin. I know from my own experiencefm that after having learned Greek you can jump into LLPSI and recognise every grammatical phenomenon without having explicitly studied the grammar. You will easily catch the differences because you know what to look for. The biggest hurdle for Erasmus was certainly vocabulary

Can you recite poetry in your selected language, /clg/?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzJQ0TcBmqU

>>20528008
German for Reading is a bit overhyped. I've gone through it and my German was still abysmal. You probably won't be able to read Harry Potter either unless you hack through it. But I imagine that if you went through German for Reading 3-4 times your German reading ability would be pretty decent. Since then, I've gone through German Made Simple, l'Allemand Sans Peine, the Berlitz German course, and taken two semesters of German. Only after those did my German really improve to an actual bearable level.

Input fags getting btfo. I guess people have had enough finally. Good riddance. Back to language learning. Time for a reset:

1. ...................................................

>>20528036
>7. What modern language do you think is more useful for a classical language polyglot - French or German?
Learn both. It was standard just over a 100 years ago to know both.
>10. What are useful YouTube channels on this topic that aren't just input/anki faggotry?
Dekai glossai, Alexander Arguelles

Why are you guys so determined to make learning languages harder for yourselves?

>>20528052
he fucking fucks. should've inputted more

>>20528060
That fucking sucks
Yeah I got hyped about it because I had read so many anecdotes from people who said they were able to read basic German texts after finishing it and reading the texts in it really made me think I could learn German this way
Thanks for the reality check anon, it makes you wonder what these people are talking about when they say it helped them learn German, also why it was used at universities for so long
Perhaps everyone meant struggling with a dictionary/grammar when they said 'reading'

>>20528036
9. Zuntz Griechischer Lehrgang, Alexandros, Cambridge Reading Greek, Pharr's homeric Greek, Kantharos (some dogshit German school textbook we used in the intensive course). Those are the ones I used more or less extensively besides Athenaze and Italian Athenaze. I would say Zuntz is better than Athenaze and I has better grammar explanation but it is not really suitable for absolute beginners. There is no perfect Greek textbook.

>>20528051
Dictionaries and colloquia were available by 1500 and Erasmus was obsessed with editing Jerome and revising the New Testament from the original Greek.. He had ample access to parallel texts, chiefly the Vulgate which was his main interest, and probably to Crastonis Greek-Latin dictionary and Lascaris' Greek grammar, then new. If he had had the two or three months of semi-intensive Greek I had, he would have been running the school within a year. Explicit instruction trumps "input" without guidance. Of course you need tons of input, once you have the basics down. But it goes to show how valuable it is to have a pedagogical tradition that bootstraps you quickly. "Pure inputting" mythology is just going to mislead people into justifying their laziness.

Russian says y мeня ____ to say "I have ____," but the literal meaning is "by/near me there is (a) ____." The ecть (copula) is usually elided, and is only used for emphasis. Since possession is such a common thing to talk about, are you glad you will now remember my explanation of this when you see it, or would you rather have tried to surmise this weird, probably archaic usage based on unconscious inferences about how "y" works in other contexts?

>>20528036
Had enough of what? Being told that you should maybe read a fucking book for once?

>>20528101
>Perhaps everyone meant struggling with a dictionary/grammar when they said 'reading'
That is the normal initial phase. What's great about the grad student bootstrap books is they get you to the point that you can direct your own studies. From there the sky is the limit, but yeah the first year sucks, it's what Kaufmann calls the plateau.

It still happens to me with languages I read in, because my vocabulary is really only good enough to read technical nonfiction in my area of specialty. I started reading more fiction lately in some languages that I only read for research, and I had to circle 5 words in a sentence sometimes. How would I know clou is nail? How am I possibly going to remember it unless I raise my French to the next level and focus on it as a "main" second language? I'll remember a good amount of these kinds of words, the brain is pretty amazing like that, but inevitably I'm going to forget a bunch too unless they remain relevant throughout whatever I'm reading and come up a lot.

You can overcome this with a language you intend to speak and master but most of your second languages are going to remain at the plateau level, in fact they can decay pretty quickly too, which is why I recommend doing even 20-30 mins a day even when you're not using them much.

>>20528101
>able to read basic German texts after finishing
Well, yeah, I guess it depends what they meant by "basic".
>Perhaps everyone meant struggling with a dictionary/grammar when they said 'reading'
I believe so. I remember reading somewhere that the book was/is often used by grad students to cram before some German qualifying exam or whatever on which they would have to translate texts using a dictionary.

>>20528155
I took exams like that and I will qualify the "cramming Sandberg" story by adding a second step: cramming Sandberg, but then spending at least a month or two INPUTTING scholarly nonfiction German. The input is as crucial as the base grammar the book gives you. If you do that you can learn almost any Romance or Germanic language well enough to pass one of those grad school tests within a month. And of course it gets easier and easier as you acquire more languages, and the better you are at grammar in general.

Also this doesn't apply to Latin or Greek. The initial base grammar phase needs to be much longer because the languages are way more complex both grammatically and syntactically (on average), and the input phase needs to be MUCH longer to pass a real test because you need to see exponentially more real Latin/Greek "in the wild" to feel at all comfortable with it.

>>20528121
If you showed me all the uses of it multiple times in a text I would be able to deduce this rule. What you wrote is the equivalent of a grammar entry. Anyways of course I'm not against grammar, I read reference grammars for Greek and Latin myself, but I defend LLPSI and the likes because they introduce and repeat new grammatical concepts and advanve in a way that I find appealing. There is also no reason not to study grammar on the side. The biggest advantage over other textbooks is in my opinion not the inpoot of grammar, but the inpoot of vocab. Other textbooks tend to be on a short budget when it comes to the amount of text they can put in their books, but they are still required to include a big amount of vocabulary to build up the basics, so sometimes you end up having to decifer a sentence made up completely out of new words that you have to pick from a vocab list and that are then never repeated again in the whole book, which I find to be very annoying.

>>20528185
I agree with you and don't mind LLPSI if it's used in that way. I just think a lot of the people promoting it don't know a fucking thing about Latin and are high on the fantasy of being able to "skip the hard part" and still learn it.

The only other place I'd disagree with you is in sticking with constructed texts and repetition for too long. I think students should be 50% taught grammar and morphology by rote in the initial phase, just basic drilling and paradigms, with the other 50% devoted to reading decently constructed graded texts. But this phase should end as quickly as possible, ideally as soon as the kids have assimilated enough morphology and grammar to read something real they're actually interested in. And not fucking poetry, I can't believe how many classes I've had or seen that tried to use Virgil or Ovid as babby's first real Latin, just give the kids something they can sink their teeth into.

>which I find to be very annoying.
I think they have computer models and shit for deciding on how to balance single-use vocab with core vocab, and almost all textbooks now construct their texts around high frequency vocab. So it shouldn't be much of an issue these days. But I think some do err on the side of more single-use items in later stories simply because it's difficult to make a compelling story using only core/high frequency words.

That's another thing I've noticed you have to tell students directly, don't worry about rare or single-use vocab in the glosses, those are just to spice the story up. You can get those later. Really bright students often feel guilty for not remembering those, which is admirable but hurts morale.

>>20528204
Are you a latin teacher?

>>20527901
>>20527925
>can i sell you a "Learn Latin While You Sleep! Naturally Absorb the Language Like a Baby!" tape? it's microsoft sam reading vergil phonetically for 200 hours

You bastards, I came here to get help on my daily exercises, not laugh.

>people complaining about modern languages being taught like classical ones.

I think i'd have progressed much better in German if I had a book more like my 110 year old Latin book.

LLPSI Read Along Chapter 6

This chapter introduces alot of things and was very hard for me first time around

>>20528288
The main thing it seeks to introduce is prepositions. It's in the name, this concept is used for positional things (or atleast that's the current extent of my preposition knowledge) in this, on that, above that, below this, etc.

The hard part about it is that it comes with it's own grammar quirks. some of them go with an ablative, some with accusative

>>20528297
Imo it's not very well explained in the margin notes if you don't already know what it's telling you.
It's telling you there is a difference whether someone is going towards something, currently in a location, or going away from it.

>>20528300
And the last thing it introduces are the active and passive forms that many words take. As far as I know this is the difference between "Matt hits the dog" and "the dog is hit by Matt"

At this point you should really be using some sort of table to help you memorise all these forms because it's getting quite a bit unwieldy and we haven't even reached verbs yet

>>20527703
>>20527716
Beginner here;
Why do people argue against this? If someone is good at Latin and has read a lot of it, he should be able to write a few simple sentences, no? Am I misssing something?

>>20528368
Well you see that's the thing.... they're not good at it.

>>20528288
>>20528297
>>20528300
>>20528310
Behold, the only non retarded latinfag itt
(yes I'm retarded too)
Thanks for your service, ser

>>20528300
The locative case is introduced, too. The locative case is an obsolete case that survives only in a few words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locative_case#Latin

>>20528288
Chapter 6
C questions

>Ambulatne Julius?
Julius non ambulant, sed in lectico est.
>Qui Julium portant
Julius in lectico portatur a servis.
Servi Julium in lectico portant.
>Quid portant Syrus et Leander?
Syrus et Leander saccos portant.
Sacci a Syro et Leandro portantur.
>Unde venit Julius et quo it?
Julius Tusculo venit et villam suam it.
>Quo it Medus?
Medus Tusculo Romam it.
>Etiamne Cornelius Tusculo Romam it?
Cornelius non unde ab Tusculo, sed venit ab Roma et Tusculum it.
Are unde and venit synonmous in this sentence or have I done it completely wrong?
>Ubi habitat Cornelius?
Cornelius Tusculi habitat
>Cur Medus laetus est?
Medus laetus quia it suam amicam qua in Romae habitat.
>Quae est Lydia?
Lydia Medum amicae est.
Lydia Medum amat et Lydia amatur ab Medo.
>Quid habet Medus in sacculo suo?
In sacculo Medi pecunia Julii est.
pecunia Julii ab Medi habetur in suo sacculo.
aa I can't figure out how to make a passive sentence of this one.
>Suntne amici Julius et Medus?
Julius et Medus inimici sunt quia Medus Julium pecuniae habet.
Pecunia Julii habetur a Medo, jam Julius Medum non amat,
>Num portat verbum passivum est?
Portat non est passivum, sed activum. Portatur verbum passivum est.

I'm pretty sure I butchered most of these, I'm a bit tired, I'll have to re-read this chapter again I think.

>>20528310
Is it possible to do what this anon is doing but with Greek? i know the Athenaze is not the Lingua but maybe something like an anon giving us some made up text for us beginners to digest every day with increasing difficulty, it would make a great resource if archived, something like the first actual LLPSI for Greek.

>>20528297
I know you're gonna laugh but this helped me visualize the prepositions https://youtu.be/F0Y1j9_9GtM

Any know of any good primer on how to pronounce latin according to a good classical reconstruction?

>>20528544
just watch ranieri bro

>>20528539
I like this guys videos although I can't help but feel that he's using minecraft just as a way to get kids to learn latin, and doesn't actually care about the game himself. which makes him come off as weird I think. Like a 40 year old teacher using memes to try to teach his students geography

this is basically /lang without flags

>>20528544
Latin pronunciation is not so complicated that it requires some sort of primer beyond a Ranieri video, the only thing he gets wrong sometimes is the ellision of the final m, and specially the retracted S, which is the reason he mentions it pretty much every time he encounters it, but anyways he has videos on those. He does sound kind of unnatural as well, but it is for the sake of comprehension.

If you want a perfect pronunciation however, Turrigiano is king: https://youtu.be/mU5W6j_UVhI

>>20528051
>The biggest hurdle for Erasmus was certainly vocabulary
Considering that Erasmus was a native Dutch speaker, I don't think he was altogether unfamiliar with having to memorize myriads of words in the process of learning a language.
>>20528060
>>20528101
That book teaches about 1.3k words or so, which is enough to start reading German texts looking up only 1 out of every 3 words instead of literally every single word. I used it as a refresher several years after having taken German in high school, which certainly helped with reading, but I'd be lying if I were to claim it really helped with my speaking abilities. My grandfather is a native German speaker, and even though I can identify many of the words he uses whenever he speaks in German because I've come across them in either novels or Wikipedia articles, I find it extremely difficult to pull out those same words from my memory whenever I want to express myself in German.

Fīlum novum:
>>20528811
>>20528811
>>20528811
>>20528811

>>20528368
You are completely right.