/lit/ - Literature

>>20448534
Guenon is more worth reading than any other memed author on /lit/, no cap

>>20448312
Thanks anon

>>20448312
do I need to read the book to watch this? or can I jump straight in?

>>20448453
Watch the first one of course, but no, they go in great detail and discuss the implications of each point as they go, as like a companion to the book

He recommended a fantastic encyclopedia of Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and Zen in the video

>>20448312
holy based…

I don't know how much longer I can resist reading Guenon. I try not to fall for memes.

>>20448312
whos the white guy?

>>20448602
A mystery, a catholic, suspected CIA handler

>>20448312
OP your dad (Saiyad) is really cool can you tell him I said that

>>20448312
Keked at the end when he calls out the intellectual brainlets in unis

>some paki and his manbun son talk about a meme

>>20448858
- and here's why it's based

Genuinely didn't expect to see Saiyad Nizamuddin Ahmad on 4chan, I am pleasantly surprised. I hope this thread doesn't die too soon inshallah

>>20448312
WOAH! Princeton academic? Ok, now I know he gets it.

>>20448602
The guy posting this video everywhere.

>>20448312
Saiyad is a legit role model. You can just tell he has seen, read and experienced some wonderous things. I hope I can have the same in my life one day.

>>20450197
>fat
Tell him to lay off the falafels.

>>20450273
Everyone has thier vices.

>>20448312
should I read crises of the modern world before going into this?

>>20450308
May as well. You probably don't have to but Reign of Quantity is so good you should prep yourself for it to get the most out of it.

>>20450318
oh its not even that long of a book, sweet

I think I trust Princetons more than random grifters

can some one give me the basic gestalt?

>>20451113
"shits fucked"

>>20451253
So this guy writes a book about how fucked shit is, and guy here does a podcast on the lecture other guy does, about shit being fucked?
...
Am I undersatnding you correct anon, becuase honestly it seems like kind of a downer for a read?
Any dragons or magic rings or strong women of color in the book?

>>20451306
>Any dragons or magic rings or strong women of color in the book?
No sorry, though there are dragons in Guenon's other book 'symbols of sacred science', thats a nice read

>>20450197

>>20451344
oh thats a nice suggestion thanks, I've recently gotten more into symbolism as a topic.

>reading Serpent in the sky - by john anthony west
>and the temple of man by Schwaller de Lubicz

>>20451455
Its an excellent book in that regard, probably Guenon's comfiest book

>>20448534

Imo he's essential for everybody that have spiritual or religious leanings.

At the very least, he will give you a pretty good understanding of sufism. I have personally seen members from at least 5 different tariqas in France and the Maghreb that validate everything Guénon says from a doctrinal standpoint (so virtually everything). What I mean is that even if you read him and think he isn't orthodox for your own religion, you will still get valuable insight.

>>20448534
I resisted for years and started reading several months ago due to a friend recommending him as well.
Wish I had started sooner. Guenon articulated things I had struggled with spiritually for years and provided the solutions, and then taught me much more. I'm still essentially a Christian but his thought has deepened my understanding of Jesus and his teachings significantly and given me a new appreciation for the Middle Ages. I'm also reading about Hinduism more now too to get a deeper understanding of metaphysics.
Sounds like a meme post but Guenon really is amazing. I'm more grateful for his works than of any other authors. I only wish I'd read him as soon as I was able to experience the benefits of doing so, but I also get the sense I read him at just the right time in my life.

So are you gonna post a link or what you retarded OP?

>>20452538
Pbuh
This ep was a bit boring but I expected that going in
Intro one was great
Looking forward to the future chapters where the content gets juicier

>>20452575
>This ep was a bit boring
you will never be a brahmin

>>20452635
Ur not a Brahmin, but a nerd if u enjoyed 35 min of defining “quality”

>>20452644
Yes

>>20452538

Links pertain to the quantitative and lesser sphere of existence, hence they are consider Haram. We won't touch the term URL in our post, as that's an acronym created by the counterinitiatic W3 Consortium, mainly a branch of jewish cohanim from the spiritually deserted u.s. of a.

>>20452645
>t.

>>20452661
Agent of the counter-initiation detected

>>20452645
What website is that again?

>>20448312
His son definitely looks more chad-y compared to when they first started uploading vids
Good for him
No homo

This is gonna end up being an epic series
>>20448453
Read along, it’s one chapter a time
Would recommend reading crisis of the modern world
>>20452575
Whatever, as you said, it’ll start to get really interesting once they get past the first handful of chapters
>>20452645
Kek
>>20452688
Artflow.ai

>>20451511
Guenon interpreted Sufi works through a Western occultist lens, then influenced Sufism by virtue of his Western credentials, like a less-retarded version of the same thing all the new-agers did to Taoism and Zen.
Not saying there is no value there, but the fact that Sufis claim him is not an indicator of traditional credentials. He committed an innovation as all the Traditionalists did, which is why most of them are unfortunately overrated

>>20453764
>He committed an innovation
Which was…?

>>20453774
He wore adidas slippers to the mosque

>>20453784

>>20448472
what's the encyclopedia?

very unimpressed desu. all of lecture 1 and 1/4 or 1/3 of the lecture 2 (did not finish) were about the fact guénon uses substance as both quality as in "substance / accident" and quantity as in "essence / substance"

>>20455929
First handful of chapters of Reign of Quantity are kind of boring
Once he starts applying this Quality vs Quantity approach to the “real world” it gets really interesting.

>>20455965
i have read it. not gonna follow through this video series anymore

Fuck off with your complaints nigger
Every man and his dog is a critic
Give us a SOLUTION

>>20455878
He calls it the 'Shambhala Encyclopedia'.
https://3lib.net/book/3639509/514dbd

>>20455988
this is actually a really good point

>>20455992
Thank you so much

>>20455995
No problem anon

>>20448312
Based

>>20448312
Based, brothers...

>>20448312
Im curious to hear the eventual episode on the ‘cracks in the great wall’ chapter

>>20453764
How do you know it is an innovation and isn't just the more Traditional form?

>>20456871
It is not characteristically different from any other strand of Western esotericism which all arose around the same time in the imperial melting pots at the turn of the century.
Perennialism is a European idea who h has analogues in Eastern philosophy but not in Islam unless you squint very hard. The originators resorted to quote-mining the Quran as it was poorly understood in 15th century Europe. The latter-day traditionalists invoked peripheral Sufi teachings which were even then considered a heterodoxy of heterodoxy. It must be noted the traditional centers of rigorous Sufism were in the Near East and the Ottoman Balkans, not the Maghreb or the Indian subcontinent.
Altogether the movement is better characterized as a more pessimistic, more intimate, less fetishized / more romantic iteration of Orientalism, instead of its claims to transcend Orientalism. It is an essentially Western phenomenon which could not have existed without imperial cope on either side of the pond.

>>20457137
>It is not characteristically different from any other strand of Western esotericism which all arose around the same time in the imperial melting pots at the turn of the century
Yes it is, it's extremely different "characteristically". While Theosophy and neo-Rosicrucianism, for example, can be characterized by vague definitions, cherrypicked and out of context Eastern teachings, and arcane lore taken from the "akaishic records" that we are just supposed to believe, Traditionalism (I am using this word, I don't know as much about Perennialism and am not interested in defending it in itself) is characterized by extremely clear and lucid definitions (ex: initiation vs mysticism), a synthetic approach (looking at all Traditions in their original forms, looking at the principle components and synthesizing) and an overall rigorous adherence to Traditional doctrines and thus equally rigorous standards. These are just some fundamental details to show how it is characteristically very different from other turn of the century movements.

As for how it relates to sufism, you still haven't shown how it is not in fact you and your kind who are mistaken when it comes to understanding your esoteric teachings, and not Guenon et al., who have a more broader understanding of Traditions overall, and who I would therefor think would be more qualified in noting deviations or "heterodoxy" (not sure if this the right word in this context). You gave one or two quick points with nothing backing them up.
>Altogether the movement is better characterized as a more pessimistic, more intimate, less fetishized / more romantic iteration of Orientalism, instead of its claims to transcend Orientalism. It is an essentially Western phenomenon which could not have existed without imperial cope on either side of the pond.
More irrelevant opinion, which serves no purpose other than to bloviate and bloat your ego (bad purpose) and whine more about the West like a brown loser.

Also, do you understand Traditionalism (speaking specifically of Guenon and Evola, the later ones I don't know as well and probably deviated) is fundamentally esoteric and completely above religion? it is objective and refers to objective spiritual states experienced by initiates. This order of knowledge is totally superior to rational and discursive knowledge.

>>20457137
>Perennialism is a European idea who h has analogues in Eastern philosophy but not in Islam unless you squint very hard.
>who is Shihab al-Din Yahya Ibn Habash al-Suhrawardi
Maybe don't comment on things you have no knowledge of.

>>20455929
This is the basis of philosophy. You have to define your terms and not just ramble on without defining any of your neologisms like a nuphilosopher like Derrida who says shit like "lol you didn't understand me"

>>20457834
>Gets executed for heresy

>>20457834
Indeed I wasn't familiar with him, so I looked him up and it seems this literally-who along with his whole school is only relevant in Iran... And he is more philosophical than esoteric.
Why do guenonfags constantly pull together unrelated facts and figures into a synthetic whole? That's not exactly traditional

>>20457919
I have never read guenon, nor do I care about the strawman you are attacking. I interjected because Suhrawardi is one of the main figures of Islamic philosophy and esotericism (the two are wedded in Islam) and he believed in perennialism. If you don't know about him, it only speaks about your ignorance of Islamic philosophy and esotericism.
>>20457880
That is so with any worthwhile person in the intellectual history of Islam.

>>20457880
>goatfucking pedophilic retards execute anyone for anything

>Suhrawardi a literal who
The actual state of this board

>>20458416
Come on man he looked him up on Wikipedia, give him a break, he's brown.

>>20458416
>ivy educated
>brown man
>literal who
try better 4chinz chuds

>>20458395
>>20458416
>>20458427
Your conception of Islamic philosophy has nothing to do with the actual Islamic view of philosophy, it's a Westernized meme comprised of the most heckin enlightened literally-me ideas colonial academics and liberalized Muslims could scrounge up

>>20458459
>has note read a single book from him
>here are my western suburban takes
ngmi

>>20458459
>muh colonialism muh liberalism
Suhrawardi has been taught in Islamic seminaries for centuries in Iran. Anon was right that you're most likely brown.

>>20458459
>gets BTFO
>starts seething about white colonizers and saying only le true mooslems will understand him
Imagine being brown

>>20458447
Shut up muslim nigger mutt

>>20458416
>he isnt an oppressed anupper middle class (((white))) woman
>his thoughts have zero significance

>>20458591
thought so /leftypol/ tranny

>>20450022
I found out about him on /lit/ a year ago from the library tour that was posted here. I remember that many anons knew of him and mentioned him being posted. Since then, I haven't seen him posted.

>>20458613
Oops meant for>>20458459

>>20458497
>in Iran
Shi(ite)hole

>>20458471
>>20458497
>>20458574
>>20458666

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXa5Z3wJLvE
what did he mean by this

>>20458798
>t. Brown hands
>I'm not American

>>20458885
Your grandkids will have brown hands

>>20458798
USA! USA! USA!
>>20458822
I love how he just completely mogs us all at every level of /trad/itional studies

>>20458898
>brown turd plays make-believe to cope with being brown
Yikes.

>>20458901
I dont think teaching people magic and sorcery is right

>>20458920
It’s not
3x3 magic squares and gematria are traditional sciences

>>20458822
uninitiated Hylics BTFO

>>20458785
>noooooo you cant talk about shias they arent real moosleems!!!!
Absolute state of brownies

>>20458459
S*nnism was a mistake

>>20448312
Bump.

>>20448312
Was Guenon a heretic? the Quran clearly states that you may not seek another religion besides Islam

>>20461872
>profane retard doesn't understand esotericism vs religion
Get off my /lit/.

>>20456871
>Those who follow the accepted revelations of Tradition can have little sympathy for the thinly-disguised intellectual pretension of certain groups that would put themselves, like God, at the Center of all traditions, without even knowing what it is to participate fully—as regards doctrine, method and ritual—in the form of any one tradition. The function of Chakravarti belongs to the Pantocrator alone—a position contested only by Satan or the Antichrist.
— Monsieur Réne Guénon (Peace Be Upon Him)

>Neither are these citations (in reference to his use of multiple traditional sources, compiled as part of his anthology) offered as an apology for spiritual laxity, a universal tolerance (which ‘implies indifference, and becomes intolerable’—Coomaraswamy: Am I My Brother’s Keeper?, p. 38), or fraternity of mankind united under One Religion. A supraformal synthesis cannot be recast in terms of a formal syncretism; and on the contingent plane of existence each traditional form has its own inexorable laws and logic and integral cohesion adapted to the time, place and people involved, to the exclusion of other forms, being in its own form and at its level an all-inclusive whole (Because identical, through analogical transposition, with the Supreme Center.) ‘Gnosis' must therefore discard all these doctrines (with metaphysical pretensions) and base itself alone on the Orthodox Tradition contained in the Sacred Books of all peoples, a Tradition which in reality is everywhere the same, in spite of the diverse forms it assumes in order to adapt itself to each race and each period. But here again one must have great care to distinguish this true Tradition from all the erroneous interpretations and fantastic commentaries made on it in our time by a flood of schools more or less occultist in character, which unfortunately have wished too often to speak on matters where they had no knowledge’ (René Guénon: La Gnose, Dec., 1909)

>Hence no text has been included which gives proof of traditional irregularity. On the other hand, the Spirit, transcending form, has the power to break through it, for ‘the wind bloweth where it listeth’; and occasional citations—above all from the Christian sphere—are entered when strikingly appropriate to the context, even though the traditional affiliations regarding ritual transmission (never doctrinal orthodoxy) might be hard to trace. In general, the
essential characteristic of tradition is an unchanging reality, universal constant or norm (the Qur’ânic dînu ’l-qayyim), polarizing in the World Axis where the contingent and principial domains conjoin, and whose traces will always be discernible in doctrine, symbol and rite to certain objective criteria, however diverse or even contradictory in appearance may seem the outward forms.


Refuted. True esoterism is ascending to the analogical of metaphysical unanimity, whilst traditionally disciplined.

>>20463246
I left out the word, "ascending to the analogical center of metaphysical unanimity, whilst traditionally disciplined."
Seeing with the heart is something indiscriminate, as long as a man argues about God, he has not realized Him.

>>20459026
They ain't real

>>20462972
>Memelord doesn't understand the difference between licit mysticism and zandaqa
Many such cases

It’s out…. Holy based…!
The madman did it!!!
REIGN OF QUANTITY Chapter 2
https://youtu.be/kHdS3XmuAQ4

>>20463927
>licit mysticism
>zandaqa

Its not mysticism. Nothing Guenon espoused is contrary to Islamic Dogmas.

Islam is just the continuation of the perrenial/ancient wisdom traditions. If you don't understand this, then keep learning/reading until you do.

>>20464352
whose the white guy, he looks out of place kinda

>>20464505
Shane Gillis, stand up comedian and comedy actor.

>>20464513

>>20464352
Holy based... the esoteric doctrine is running within my veins and liberating my chakra networks from the pejorative influence of the modern world...

Damn Saiyad how about offering your wife and friend and self a beverage?

>>20464530
*son

>>20464352
Btw the book he is referring to at the end is called ‘The Secret of Water’ by Masaru Emoto

(One of the recommended books from the Rofschild AMA - IYKYK)

>>20464615
Qrd
https://youtu.be/5cyQVu_8EFc

>>20464352
>filtered by the first 30 seconds
wtf is he saying bros

why don’t they have beards

>>20462972
I know the difference, believing other religions contain enough truth to save someone is directly against the Quran. Only Islam has completely preserved the Truth and has abrogated all religions

>James Cutsinger described That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis as The Reign of Quantity in fictional form.
Has anybody here read it, and is it as Cutsinger described?

>>20450273
He's bulking brah

>>20465015
You're not wrong, but from the point of metaphysics, you are like the donkey that carries books on his back.

>>20465310
>the donkey that carries books on his back.
?

>>20465320
why’d you delete it?

>>20465325
I thought it was a bit harsh.

>>20448312
they just talking about mathematics tho

>>20458822
Magic bro. Check this out too.
20458822 = 31 added up numerically
20458822 - 31 = 20458791
20458791 = 36 added up numerically
3+6 = 9

you can do this with any number

Are Guenon hardbacks decent quality or are they cheaply made and perfect bound?

>>20463246
Cope.
>Those who follow the accepted revelations of Tradition can have little sympathy for the thinly-disguised intellectual pretension of certain groups that would put themselves, like God, at the Center of all traditions, without even knowing what it is to participate fully—as regards doctrine, method and ritual—in the form of any one tradition. The function of Chakravarti belongs to the Pantocrator alone—a position contested only by Satan or the Antichrist.

>Neither are these citations (in reference to his use of multiple traditional sources, compiled as part of his anthology) offered as an apology for spiritual laxity, a universal tolerance (which ‘implies indifference, and becomes intolerable’—Coomaraswamy: Am I My Brother’s Keeper?, p. 38), or fraternity of mankind united under One Religion. A supraformal synthesis cannot be recast in terms of a formal syncretism; and on the contingent plane of existence each traditional form has its own inexorable laws and logic and integral cohesion adapted to the time, place and people involved, to the exclusion of other forms, being in its own form and at its level an all-inclusive whole (Because identical, through analogical transposition, with the Supreme Center.) ‘Gnosis' must therefore discard all these doctrines (with metaphysical pretensions) and base itself alone on the Orthodox Tradition contained in the Sacred Books of all peoples, a Tradition which in reality is everywhere the same, in spite of the diverse forms it assumes in order to adapt itself to each race and each period. But here again one must have great care to distinguish this true Tradition from all the erroneous interpretations and fantastic commentaries made on it in our time by a flood of schools more or less occultist in character, which unfortunately have wished too often to speak on matters where they had no knowledge’ (René Guénon: La Gnose, Dec., 1909)

>Hence no text has been included which gives proof of traditional irregularity. On the other hand, the Spirit, transcending form, has the power to break through it, for ‘the wind bloweth where it listeth’; and occasional citations—above all from the Christian sphere—are entered when strikingly appropriate to the context, even though the traditional affiliations regarding ritual transmission (never doctrinal orthodoxy) might be hard to trace. In general, the
>essential characteristic of tradition is an unchanging reality, universal constant or norm (the Qur’ânic dînu ’l-qayyim), polarizing in the World Axis where the contingent and principial domains conjoin, and whose traces will always be discernible in doctrine, symbol and rite to certain objective criteria, however diverse or even contradictory in appearance may seem the outward forms.

>>20453764
But then, on whose authority do you rely to claim that he is not perfectly orthodox from a Sufi standpoint ? It's always the same problem : maybe you are right, but why should I take your word over what every other sufi I have met told me ? From a logical standpoint, I see no reason, as of yet, to believe a post on a japanese cartoon website more than the testimony of people on the Path

>>20465929
Meant for
>>20453764
>“To a materialistic society enthralled with the phenomenal universe exclusively, Guénon, taking the Vedanta as point of departure, revealed a metaphysical and cosmological teaching both macrocosmic and microcosmic about the hierarchized degrees of being or states of existence, starting with the Absolute . . . and terminating with our sphere of gross manifestation.”
—Whitall N. Perry, editor of A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

Hylics don't understand why this is necessary, the stages of death are observable unfoldments from gross manifestation to most subtle - by the elements and so forth, from earth to space, and in death you will start to experience deprivations and induced inner phenomenas related to this dissolution, essentialy you should be in a state of total meditiation in death unto the final "space" element, from earth to water to fire to wind to space, which will have effects related to your organs in order, as you die you will lose sense of smell or it will be effected, then your sense of taste will be affected, your saliva will lose its taste and so on, then your vision and sight will start to flicker and stop, then the sense of touch will dwindle and you will not be able to feel, well your body will eventually have the feeling of sinking you feel that you become one with matter, then finally corresponding space you will I think hear absolutely nothing - and that will be overwhelming, aswell as the feeling of losing all bodily sensation, the big deal is to not get caught up in the bodily sensations, and to be able to discriminate between the relative gross phonomena, the subtle and formless, and then the total nonmanifestation, and you will essentialy then become either "everything" or "nothing."

So yes, if you read guénon you will gain insight into death and be better prepared for the relatively objective phenomena which will occur during that period of time,

Meditiation and all that is just preparation, if you become extremely good at meditation you will expect all that will happen during death, you will not be confused, or surprised, but it will still be intense initially, and probably easy to he overwhelmed, at this point - I can imagine that this when it's easy for something to happen,

E.g you can't cope with the dissolution of the most gross dissolution of earth etc. And then your "conciousness" will essentialy transmigrate into vegetation, minerals, and plants,

But easentialy when you get to that "space" stage which is most subtle, smallest, tiniest, as it says "smaller than a grain, or something" of that nature, you will then be able to become "Greater" than everything by becoming the smallest,
"Humility" is not something sentimental understood in this sense, like it says, Allah can not be contained in the earth and so on, but in the heart of Allah's willing slave, you have to become greater than the universe in this way
— many who are first will be last, and the last first

>>20461872
Then why has the Prophet authorized Christians and Jews to praftice their faith after cleansing Arabia from pagan religions ? If they were truly obsolete, then by doing that he willingly condemns them to burn in hell, according to this logic, in which case he is an asshole because there are no valid reasons to do so. And yet, muslims are to protect them and do them no harm. I always found this take inconsistent.

>>20450308
>>20450318
update: finished chapter 4 today. loving it thus far. i cant wait to get into more of his works

>>20465958
Of course this is advice for the hylic who will be surprised on death, but if we focus now and meditate and so on, it's possible to essentialy kill yourself, without "killing" yourself, overcoming the various limitations of the individuality, this can happen in life if you become a yogic master, who is able to simulate death in such a fashion.

Essentialy death bruteforces this, and you will have the ability in this moment - you will have a free ticket to

Go on a trip through the realms and worlds, the earth, the sky, the heavens, and then greater than all this, that being which is neither being nor non-being, nonmanifestation.

This is the liberation, now I'm not forcing you to accept anything,
But I am just giving some advice to the hylic, and why /trad/ informed understandings of reality are important,

All understandings can derive from the contemplation of death and experience of it,
>A first cause, being itself uncaused, is not prob-able but axiomatic
- by necessity its not a matter of debate, a person who debates about God has not realised God
>The Self alone can comprehend the Self
>One can assuredly prove every truth; but every proof does not enter into all minds.
>The need of causality increases, not in proportion to knowledge, but in proportion to ignorance. For the sage, each star, each flower, metaphysically proves the Infinite.
>Once the ‘Flight of the Alone to the Alone’ has been accomplished, the Self will know its own Identity as clearly and infallibly as a river ‘knows’ its element upon merging with the sea.

This is what it's all about, Union with the Infinite, the Dot encircled by circles, is a great symbol for this realisation at least in this waking state, realising that reality is essentialy illusory, relative phenomena, and that the infinite is beyond name as well as form, is essential.

This is what guénon points a person to, and then of course to join a corresponding affiliated tradition connected to that primordial knowledge, and to inguess develop and meditate until you become a sage.

Everything says the same thing, which is God, all books, all things on earth, even when a person is brutally murdered that is God unfolding, everywhere.

Cope and seethe!

>>20466000
Now that part abour joining an "affiliated trad organisation" really things have changed big time in the last 100 years, many techniques are leaked to the public, esoteric things in the traditional sense, so it is maybe possible to circumvent that formal traditional affiliation - especially given their degeneration, but don't be surprised if the results produced are unexpected and possibly even harmful - each to their own.

If you can understand the use of teacher or guru, or master, properly assimilate it, then when every sound can become an oral transmission, reality itself can become your teacher, but this is open to much misinterpretation, and is something never recommended by guénon, or I think supported by "traditional organisations" and such, because it's something Self-evident to those realised people, so it's never something which requires disclosure, and that's why it's warned as satanic a "standing above all traditional forms" but in my case I don't have any "traditional organisations" to turn to. And i am not wealthy, I have an occupation to attend to, I am unable to just become an official monk,
These are the practical things I've considered, really I don't think it even needs any consideration, or active effort,

That stressing on
>muh official trad org
Is what was the worst point for me to read in guénon, but even he admits that only idiots will say that it's not possible for "realisation" unaffiliated, without the formal initiatic traditional organisation your realisations will just become incomprehensible to others, incommunicable and you will become more like a "mystic."

Trad orgs died in the middle ages, back then become a mediator was something only for the few, and they had to devote their lives to contemplation, there was no oecumenism, people kept religion to themselves,

Today all things and means are permitted, there are so many traditional teachers good or bad, who talk on YouTube, expressing things we could've only known if we joined monasteries 1000 years ago, we have oral transmission over the internet, what all that exactly means is something hard to understand exactly.

>>20466026
Overthinking the technological conditions is redundant, and of course I am not denying the use or function of languages or lineages, for example drinking the gurus semen is something you can only do while physically attending...

If this makes me counter-initiation to say all this then that's fine, "mixing traditional forms" too can be unpleasant in terms of practice is what guénon said... but surely we understand that there is no such thing as something unpleasant, or pleasant for that matter, that is a relative conception.

What I've broken it all down to is that "initiatic lineages" bestow techniques which allow for the manipulation of the subtle body for example, the traditional sciences, and an incarnational understanding manifested in the mind of the teacher which is like the archstone wedged between heaven and earth, that's all, faith and belief is increased by devoting yourself to a person that you believe is a realised master - even if he in actuality is not,

All initiation is works by an external influence, but what is external is also internal, why you have to go from "outside" to "inside," is because it's an analogical inversion, really there is no "outside" or "inside," Absolutely speaking there is No "Initiation" intrinsic and fundamental which can modify something unmodifiable, all is self, there is no self-"Initiation" the initiation in comparison to the self is purely illusory, and if guénon acknowledges the possibility of mystics attaining high places of realisation what does he actually mean? Does the person get "initiated" by the tree that he states at is this the transmission of an informal external spiritual influence? Understanding this makes the conception of "counter-initiation" insignificant, those people "counter-initiators" (new agers and occultists) supposedly merely operate on the psychic plane, but there is not a "psychic" and "non-psychic" plane, there is one plane, all those speculations and understandings don't do much to profit a person spiritually.

Trads "refuted," this is where their doctrine is weak and relative to get caught up in that aspect is a filter, if someone here who maybe reads this can clarify what guénons position on this actually is (because im sure he adressed it in his writings) and then maybe correct me, that would be appreciated.

>>20465995
Atta boy

>>20465979
He only could have had them be forcefully converted which is not a genuine conversion so they would still go to hell,
“Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur’aan and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikoon will abide in the fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures”
Guenon just kinda larped as a Muslim who didnt actually believe Islam

>>20452538
Jesus Christ... Are americans this lazy?

>>20466724
He forcefully converted the pagans of Arabia by going to war against them for a decade, I don't see the problem doing the exact same for the Christians and the Jews, and why would he grant them extended protection in this case ?

Apparently, quite a few muslim disagree with you

>>20466738
Don’t blame me for your laziness

>>20466724
So according to you the Quran contradicts itself.

"Truly those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. No fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve"

>>20466805
This is referring to Christians and Jews pre Muhammad, Muhammad was sent because existing traditions like Judaism and Christianity stopped worshipping God

>>20466944
It doesn't say that in the text. If God wanted to add a qualifier, He would have done it Himself.

Muhammad said those who associate partners to God like Jews and Christians and those who heard about the law but rejected it would be punished in hell, the verse you quoted must refer to those who are Jews in Christians but never got the message of Islam
حَدَّثَنِي يُونُسُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الأَعْلَى، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ وَأَخْبَرَنِي عَمْرٌو، أَنَّ أَبَا يُونُسَ، حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ قَالَ " وَالَّذِي نَفْسُ مُحَمَّدٍ بِيَدِهِ لاَ يَسْمَعُ بِي أَحَدٌ مِنْ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ يَهُودِيٌّ وَلاَ نَصْرَانِيٌّ ثُمَّ يَمُوتُ وَلَمْ يُؤْمِنْ بِالَّذِي أُرْسِلْتُ بِهِ إِلاَّ كَانَ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّارِ " .

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 153

>>20467072
Imagine taking Sunni "sahihs" seriously lmao. Start with Goldziher.

>>20467072
Muhammad and Allah form alongside the Buddha, Jesus and so on comprise members of my reality pantheon, how trad am I?

>>20448312
That’s it, I’m gonna read him

>>20467748
Get after it

Guenonchads…
I recently read this article tonight and it had me thinking about our recent discussion regarding the AI Antichrist
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/news/demonic-ai-generating-secret-written-27132747

I have a new iNsight - an AI creating its own language is the anti-Logos.

>The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The anti-Word must come before the Antichrist
Oh fugg

>>20467083
“ Despite his love for Islam, Goldziher remained a devout Jew all his life.”
are you guys all just retards larping as Muslims? I like a lot of Guenons writings but the transcendent unity of religions (Atleast the way schunon believed it) is utter heresy. you really believe a random Jew over virtually every Islamic scholar ?

>>20470280
Please tell me im being retarded and that Guenon didn’t believe the unity of religions in the way Schunon did, I don’t want to believe this is a big larp

>>20470280
The Jew isn't a traditionalist. He conclusively proved that Sunni hadiths do not date back to the Prophet. He showed that sahih isnad means nothing in preserving historicity, as it can be and has been fabricated. It doesn't matter who makes the criticism, the argument stands on its own, and no sunni has been able to answer his criticisms in a satisfactory way.

>>20470563
Are you Shia then? do you believe any of the hadiths are valid?

>>20470573
I am Shia but the situation isn't much better in Shi'ism. In general the historicity of the Prophet is to a great extent lost, as nearly every group in early Islam fabricated hadiths to further their own goals. This is true also within Shi'ism. But at least in Shi'ism there were Imams from the family of the Prophet for two more centuries, whom we can trust. The earliest Sunni sources were written 2 centuries after the death of the Prophet but the earliest Shia sources were written one or two decades after the Occultation of the last Imam. I trust the hadiths that directly come out of the ahl al-bayt.

>>20448312
Holy based.
Ahmed sir, I kneel.

>>20465568
Please help me bros

Sorry to reply to these posts in particular, but I have searched the thread (Control + F) to find people failing to address the holy one properly. When speaking of the great mystic, please suffix his name with PBUH, for instance, Guenon (PBUH) always. Anything else is a sign of profound disrespect. OP and one other poster are the only ones in this entire thread before me to say it properly, OP used the honor in his image and one other poster exclaimed it. You have been warned.

>>20448534
>>20449269
>>20451344
>>20451460
>>20451511

>>20448534
He a life changing author imo, honestly.

>>20455993
>>20455988
https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Maharshi's-Gospel.pdf

>>20448858
Racist faggot

>>20458822
>Hollow
indeed. No disrespect but what is the point?

Where do I start with guenon? Any chart?

>>20465979
Because Christians and Jews believed in many things, far far far faaaar more things actually, found within Islam than the pagan Arabs did. That greater level of similarity afforded them are greater level of tolerance due to:
1) Being able to live in greater/more harmony with such people (as evidenced by the fact the the early Muslims fled the pagan Arabs and sought refuge in major Jewish and Christian settlements)
2) A higher possibility/easier effort of eventually converting/convincing them/enlightening them etc.. to become Muslims.
It's 1000% a perfectly logical "take".
>>20466767
You've got this backwards. It was the pagan Arabs that initiated persecution and eventual war against the Prophet and his followers. The Prophet fought back as a defensive measure. He actually preached for 9 years (3 years on the downlow and 6 years very openly) under heavy persecution and attacks before eventually defending himself/his followers. The Muslims actually fled their home city/tribe of Mecca, which was a pagan epicentre, to Medina which was a Jewish epicentre BECAUSE they knew the Jews would treat them better due to the close proximity of their beliefs. And further more other Muslims actually travelled to Christian Abyssinia to also feel the persecution in Mecca by the pagans.
>>20466805
>>20467006
God has already added multiple "qualifiers" in the Quran as to the fact this refers to pre-Islamic Jews and Christians and even then added MORE "qualifiers" to refer to the fact it's not even ALL those pre-Islamic Jews and Christians but the ones that didn't corrupt their scripture, follow their rabbis instead of God, commit shirk etc..
It's completely nonsensical how desperate perennialists take one ayah, which they incorrectly mistranslate the meaning of, as proof for their false belief of the universality of faiths and yet reject numerous other ayahs that clearly and unambiguously refute it.

>>20448312
>Guenon
Who?

>>20472420
/lit/'s patron saint for the past five years, kys newfaggot

>>20472121
Read Crisis of the Modern World then Reign of Quantity and follow the lecture series
Then follow the chart

>>20470631
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, wft fuck is this shit? Do you not see the insane contradiction is your logic here? You're acting like a Western orientalist skeptic in relation Sunni hadith but believe in the "unseen" infallibility of Shia hadith from the Imams. Using Goldziher's epistemology (which actually has been thoroughly refuted and even modern day non-Muslim atheist orientalist distance themselves from it) Shia hadith from the imams/ahl al-bayt are JUST as unreliable because he's doesn't believe in this supposed "divine" infallibility, from Goldziher POV some random guy in ~1000AD is saying that some guy told some other guy who told some other guy etc.. something like Ali said ~400 years previously without any "proof". If you're going to engage in pathetic polemics then fine, but at least present a rationally and academically coherent point. Shia are so braindead it seems they're willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces without even realising it.

>>20470631
>But at least in Shi'ism there were Imams from the family of the Prophet for two more centuries, whom we can trust.
Are you retarded? Your basis for "trusting" the Imams in the hadith chains is exactly the same basis for Sunni's trusting their narrators in hadith. Goldziher doesn't care about imams or the family of the prophet, he has zero reason to "trust" them, according to his argument they're all capable of fabricating hadith. The level of spastic cope on show here is unreal.

>>20470290
No he did and you have absolutely no understanding of guénon or the following Traditionalists if you were unable to fully extract guénons etc. Positions regarding the unanimity of metaphysics, and that it is in fact indifferent to and dissimilar from religion, guénon in fact praised that book from schuon - and you are a pseudo-metaphysician and should leave the guénon thread, as you are not a serious individual.

>>20458798
This but with an out of touch profane geriatric gynocracy spying on your country and cataloguing every demographic psychographic genome and infopacket and real time satellite footage etc.

To update this image make it an old fat tranny with a background photo of smoggy tech ridden China

>>20472513
That religion in the domain of theology is but a transposition of that metaphysical reality, and that religion is but a particularisation of that metaphysical reality suiting a particular humanity, that each religion is justified precisely by its difference, that there are no contradictions between them, and that insofar as you egoistically and delusionally believe yourself capable of debating God you have not realised God and in error.

That the homogenisation of religion through evangelisation is individually satanic, and that there is nothing universalistic or syncretic about admitting any of that.

>hurry Durr Guénon admit transcendent unity of religion?
Guénon:
>‘Gnosis must therefore discard all these doctrines (with metaphysical pretensions) and base itself alone on the Orthodox Tradition contained in the Sacred Books of all peoples, a Tradition which in reality is everywhere the same, in spite of the diverse forms it assumes in order to adapt itself to each race and each period. But here again one must have great care to distinguish this true Tradition from all the erroneous interpretations and fantastic commentaries made on it in our time by a flood of schools more or less occultist in character, which unfortunately have wished too often to speak on matters where they had no knowledge’ (René Guénon: La Gnose, Dec., 1909).

That choosing a tradition, many times is something purely circumstantial, conditional and entirely individual, and that the supra-rational experience of God is something supra-individual, is also the natural conclusion,

But that esoterism itself cannot be built on a void, that is all that is admitted.

Tldr: Watch yourselves shudra
If you think Guénon was some Muslim western convert friend of yours, simply because you're also 'Muslim' whatever that means, you have to give it some more thought.

>>20472586
You should remember that guénon and all those western "traditionalist" larpers chose Sufism, you know the one with chakras, kundalini, mantras (and so on)?

Guénon believed that Sufism was just Vedanta when you strip away all the excess, that is the only reason they went for it, because Sufism is the closest esoteric tradition outside of the ones which were all inaccessible in the west, and whose existence were doubtful at the time.

Why did Guenon pray salat then? If he did not believe Muhammad’s message why would he pray things he didn’t believe just in order to keep some exoteric tradition

>>20472664
As I said because esoterism cannot be built on a void, you need a foundation, but that doesn't make guénons foundation any better or worse, than any other traditional foundation from the absolute perspective.

The thing which differs guénon from a theosophist or an occultist is that they "build on a void"

>Those who follow the accepted revelations of Tradition can have little sympathy for the thinly-disguised intellectual pretension of certain groups that would put themselves, like God, at the Center of all traditions, without even knowing what it is to participate fully—as regards doctrine, method and ritual—in the form of any one tradition. The function of Chakravarti belongs to the Pantocrator alone—a position contested only by Satan or the Antichrist.

From their point of view, all the relative determinations are transcended in a gnosis beyond-being, from this absolute perspective, there is no Muhammad, nor is there any Quran, nor is there any Divine Name, nor is there any "allah" for that matter, all these determinations dissolve in what guénon described as neither being nor non-being, nonmanifestation,

The exoterism is there as just one of many relative paths, that's all, guénon settled with Islam when he was abandoned in Cairo but he was indeed still loyal to that Universal Metaphysical view, which has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with that supra-individual gnosis induced by the relative exoterism and esoterism, in this case of Sufism.

There is no comparison or debate, or one tradition better then the other, only profanes talk about this in a way which is not entirely relative, and in fact Sufism is probably less complete then the other eastern traditions as pointed out in these posts here:

>>20472077
>>20472136
>>20472177

>>20472664
Schuon also prayed Salat, I guess you don't understand exactly, "Traditionalism" is essentialy parralel to the crypto-jew Sabbatai Zevi who converted to Islam in a similar sort of fashion dönmeh.

>>20472788
The "Trad" converts to this or that traditional form, in fact there is not even such a thing as "conversion" someone who understands that transcendent unity of religions, is unconvertible to anything,

Guénon literally says its not a matter of faith or belief, while of course belief and faith can be essential on a traditional path, that's not what it's all reducible to, something you have to "believe" or have "faith" in isn't real.

>>20472664
Because he wanted to just realise himself as God, and saw Sufism and grounding himself in the Islamic esoteric tradition as a viable way to awaken inherent possibilities. That's it really, I'm sure guénon also recited mantras after he was initiated by shaivites early in his life, or when he was involved with Taoists, and freemasons followed whatever corresponding Praxis he was initiated into.

Luv Guenon
‘Ate da counter-initiation

Simple as

>>20472385
But the fact that Christianity and Judaism are closer to islam doesn't chabge anything in the equation. If the islamic revelation made themm obsolete, they are just as false as the pagans, period. Precisely because they are obsolete and get in the way of paradise. It really doesn't matter if they are "a little bit less wrong", because that's basically it. I don't find that point logical at all

>>20472664
He most likely believed Muhammad was the successor of the aforementioned traditions i.e the wisdom traditions of the ancients, whereby you could become an initiate of.

Salat is a form of Theurgy, albeit one of the highest exoteric forms of the practice.

Recitation of the divine names also has high spiritual potency.

>>20472759
>Universal Metaphysical view, which has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with that supra-individual gnosis induced by the relative exoterism and esoterism, in this case of Sufism.

This is essentialy the crux of the matter that most religious types fail to grasp.

Pbuh

>>20474243
Lol at this rubbish.

>>20471134
Is it pronounced like "Pib-uh?"

>>20475078
Pee-buh

>>20475078
He's the Grand Poobah.

>>20448312
Rather listen to a lecture from a GED graduate
than a pretentious ((ivy leægu)) Myrmidon.

>>20448858
THis

>>20470631
I wanted to explain how western hadith studies has moved past Goldziher but this Shia cope has left me dumbfounded

>>20471619
OK, Manbun lives matter.

>>20475395
It has 'moved past it' by accepting his crticism and trying to reconstruct Islamic history without the use of hadith. There are copes like Hallaq or Brown but it doesn't change the fact that no respectable Islamologist takes sahih hadith seriously as historical evidence.

>>20475078
Poobah.

>>20474759
>no actual argument

I think i will just disregard the point entirely and trust what sufis told me on this matter then

>>20476581
Sounds like a cope desu
If what you said were true, then why did countless Catholics have various divine revelations after Islam was revealed?

Discuss the initiatory aspects of circumcision

>>20471619
>racism bad
Low IQ pooskin detected