/lit/ - Literature

>>20443008
based

>>20443008
>>Literally
You misused ‘literally’
>just some freemason bullshit
his idea have little to do with freemasonry, aside from the basic similarities which freemasonry has with almost all esoterism in general
>with an exotic gloss of Orientalism
Guenon (pbuh) refuted orientialism

The Guenon lectures have started.
Are you going to follow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP-EylBsKn4

>>20443393
Guenon is a Deep One.

Still has devastating critiques of modernism.

Orthodox Christianity is the only real step after Guenon.

>>20444602
this

>>20444602
>Orthodox Christianity is the only real step after Guenon.
go fuck yourself schismatic

>>20444392
No

>>20444633
>schismatic
Why are you in a guénon thread I think you missed the point of his books where he diminished and degraded the squabbles of such exoterists.
>>20443393
Guénon pretty much explains the three worlds or four worlds; and applies basic arithmetaphysics to all sorts of contexts, flavoured with the particularisms of this or that tradition, in its contingent and subordinate way, even the principles guénon talks about are not something comprehensively definable, and are but another relative determination manifested in the islamic tradition with divine names dor example which only serve a means, to that indeterminable absolutely free indefinite constraintless permanence or immutability - which guénon never did try to circumscribe in some mislead way, either as a charlatan via pseudo-metaphysics, or as a liar pretending to transcend the potential of his medium, it cannot be expressed through a discussion on his work, or from divulging his work, instead only those who have attained initiation - or have such an intellectual elevation that they have an instanteous intuition with regards to the pure Being, understand the full depth and secret which I allude to, which still yet is not in any book fully, and which is the most accesible yet most hidden thing, throughout all cycles and aeons. Unfortunately the relative individuals who read his work, may glimpse this, but ultimately have no intuition in this regard, become bored, and then get lost in the contingent methods of the traditional sciences, losing sight of the Principle which they never adequately realised, the autists on /lit/ who send huge paragraphs on what seems to be some hidden historical secrets, or hidden methodology, are incensed by attachment and desire to secrets, be it knowledge, or some power and a person who has desire, or fear, of this or that thing cannot attain the Least grade of initiation as guénon said, but nonetheless Guénon only wrote and wrote because that was his relative function, the Absolute "individual" is actionless, this is not some sort of mental gymnastics to justify lethargy, or laziness, I mean guénon referenced the reality of those who rule the world in the shadows, those who are invisible initiates camoflagued amongst the masses, and so on, NEETs shall inherit the earth.

>>20444602
>Still has devastating critiques of modernism.
no, not really, voltaire already established all the points Guenon made about modernity centuries ago
if you wanna read a good, useful and original critic of modernity read Heidegger

>>20445041
>Voltaire
LMAO

>>20445041
Voltaire was retroactively refuted by Guenon, especially his idea that the west is THE civilization and that the others are just less advanced

>>20444392
Yes

>>20443008
Don't forget how he totally misconstrued Sufism.

>>20444392
Based
Last one was good desu

>>20445268
>retroactively

>>20443008
>seething this much because he got filtered
kek'd out loud reading your post btw

>>20443008
>freemason bullshit
Seethe, and cope, but when you're finally finished open yourself up to true enlightenment, brother.
>Johannes Valentinus Andreae
>John Bunyan
>Alexander Pope
>Voltaire
>Frederick the Great
>Samuel Johnson
>Mozart
>Rousseau
>Diderot
>Burke
>Most of the American Founding Fathers
>Many American Presidents
>Many heads of state (including monarchs and members of royal families)
>Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle
>Joachim Heinrich Campe
>Moses Mendelssohn
>Lessing
>Erasmus Darwin
>Robert Burns
>Richard Brinsley Sheridan
>Walter Scott
>Fichte
>Pushkin
>Goethe
>Schiller
>Louis Spohr
>Liszt
>Sibelius
>Edward Bulwer-Lytton
>Anthony Trollope
>Wilde
>Guénon
>Proudhon
>Bakunin
>Twain
>Kipling
>Gilbert and Sullivan
>John Philip Sousa
>Sir. Arthur Conan Doyle
>Hesse
>Duke Ellington
>Lorca

Question for guenonfrens
Wouldn’t Pakistan be the perfect place for the spread of Guenon’s (pbuh) teachings? Since it has both Islamic and Hindu heritages? And is he known and read in Pakistan at all?

>>20445465
the few literate people of pakistan most likely have other things to do.

>>20445465
Guenon is actually very popular in some pakistani circles, probably for the reason you stated

>>20444392
Last one was great, but who is the other guy besides his son, I know hes a catholic of some kind from the conversation last time, but nothing else

>>20445747
he's with the CIA
also a very pious Catholic altar boy

>>20445789
>he's with the CIA
explains why he dresses like that

I think there's something fundamentally anti-traditional about the kind of Orientalism found in his work. It seems clear from a first glance that he isn't a very serious thinker.

>>20444602
>Orthodox Christianity is the only real step after Guenon.
nice try sentimentalist

>>20443008
Lmao shut up christfag

>>20445829
>I think there's something fundamentally anti-traditional about the kind of Orientalism
He doesn’t mean ‘tradition’ as in previous human custom followed in history. Its not good to post authors you have not read
>orientialism
his books have nothing to do with the orientialist movement, using the term as. a vague buzzword like you have is so broad as to be meaningless

>>20445360
There is no such thing as "Sufism" in the first place, is an orientalist invention. What you call as "Sufism" is basically islamic spirituality, which varies a lot from place to place. Both Ibn Taymiyya and Al-Hallaj were part of sufi orders, now imagine putting them together under the same label within Islam, is complete nonsense. Islam, unlike Christianity, doesn't have the notion of excommunication, because there is no Church and councils, muslims just made thousands of takfirs on one another without any relevant impact, just look at how popular Ibn Arabi became among the ottomans.

>>20445873
If I may interject...

>>20443008

>Literally just some freemason bullshit
Freemasonry was based at his time then got corrupted in the mid 20th century

>>20445907
I am pretty sure that there are lodges which are still the same as pre-mid 20th century

>>20445848
>He doesn’t mean ‘tradition’ as in previous human custom followed in history. Its not good to post authors you have not read
Of course he doesn't because that's a definition that exists to do something other than justify a lust for the novel, foreign, and exotic, which is what his obsession with "initiation" is designed to do.
>his books have nothing to do with the orientialist movement, using the term as. a vague buzzword like you have is so broad as to be meaningless
They capture its spirit well enough. If anything, he goes further; we might as well call him a superorientalist.

>>20445956
>because that's a definition that exists to do something other than justify a lust for
trite armchair psychologizing, not a substantial criticism worth addressing
>They capture its spirit well enough
No it doesn’t, since they didnt write about a shared metaphysical tradition/knowledge that appears to various humans cultures throughout history and geography like he did

>>20445956
>superorientalist

Leftcucks are really afraid of the Trads gaining so much ground on this board huh? there is a global awakening going on and as a result people are turning to spirituality. So keep coping, keep reading your shitty profane philosophy while more noble anons obtain spiritual wisdom.

>>20445907
A few lodges in France reformed under Guenonian principles, Italy as well maybe.

>>20445873
>There is no such thing as "Sufism" in the first place, is an orientalist invention. What you call as "Sufism" is basically islamic spirituality, which varies a lot from place to place.
You contradict yourself in these very sentences. Etymologically there is the Arabic word “tasawwuf,” being or becoming a Sufi, defined as referring to mystical facet of Islam. Interestingly it has connotations of being a “process”, like an art or a science — tasawwuf, the process of being or becoming a Sufi, which could also refer to the very path that Sufis take on their journeys in and towards God.

Exoterically and historically there are clear-cut and defined Sufi orders — such as the Naqshbandi Sufis or Naqshbandiyya (after Bahauddin Naqshband (1318 - 1389 CE)), the Chishti Order/Chishtiyya (after Khwaja Muiniddin Chishti (1143-1236 CE)), the Bektashi dervishes, the Suhrawardiyya (after the Persian philosopher Suhrawardi (1154-1191), the Mevlevi dervishes (most famous for being started by followers of Moulana (Our Master) Jalaluddin Rumi (1207-1230) and popularizing the image of the “whirling dervishes”, a practice assigned to certain Turkic dervishes by Rumi in his day and age and which tradition was passed down through the generations), the Qadiriyya (after Abdul Qadir Gilani (1078-1166)), and the like.

In a sense, it both is and is not an Orientalist invention. There are definitely ways in which superficial Orientalism can superficialize it or monolithize it, but “Sufism” as a closely interrelated complex phenomenon within Islam definitely exists, manifesting historically throughout its various orders, through its influence on poets, scholars, mystics, and theologians.

>>20447944
>but “Sufism” as a closely interrelated complex phenomenon within Islam definitely exists,
Controversial even as it may be for some of our pious Muslim friends, I would even add, within and *around* Islam. Some might see Guenon’s modern simultaneous deep study and expositions of Sufi metaphysics and Vedantic metaphysics as a “modern” and “crudely Orientalist” invention, but, interestingly enough, it is on record that the Shahzada of the Mughal Empire Dara Shikoh (c. 1615 - 1659 CE) authored a text in 1655 CE, Majma-ul-Buhrain or The Confluence of the Two Seas, about the primordial unity between Sufic and Vedantic philosophy.

Sufism is a tremendously complex and fascinating phenomenon, and there is reason to believe that for hundreds of years certain Sufis have had to hide and keep secret their more universalistic leanings so as not to be overtly persecuted and condemned by the societies they lived in, such as when Mansur al Hallaj (c. 858 - 922 CE) was hacked to death on charges of blasphemy for pronunciations such as “I am the Truth”, A’nal-Haqq, and other blasphemous mystical sayings. Obviously, not all Sufis wanted to suffer this fate — hence, there is the proliferation of orders and the aura and repute of “secrets” around some of them, which, most likely, are simply esoteric and mystical teachings they did not and do not want to be societally persecuted and condemned for. This is not necessarily meant to refer to ALL Sufis, but simply to certain teachers and figures within the tradition. There is also the case of the aforementioned philosopher Suhrawardi, founder of the school of Illuminationism, and his book, “The Philosophy of Illumination”, in which he affirms that his philosophy is the same as that of the inner teachings of all the ancients, Greek, Persian, and Egyptian. Suhrawardi is also a martyr, having supposedly been executed for heretical views on cultivating “Batini” (esoteric) teachings, holding a distinguishment between the exoteric and the esoteric layers and meanings of the Quran.

>>20448046
Very cool effortpost

>>20443008
What was wrong with his face?

>>20448077
Neanderthal genes

>>20445873
This is all beside the point. Guenon didn't understand even what he considered to be Sufism. His work on it can all be easily refuted. For example, he never read an actual text by Ibn Arabi, just one text that was a false attribution (because his Sufi initiator Ivan Agueli misattributed it).

He believes within Sufism there's a crypto-Buddhism, and there really isn't, especially not Akbarian Sufism, the one he claimed was the pinnacle of Sufism AND the closest to his precious Vedanta.

>>20448046
Hate to break it to you, but even Hallaj goes against core tenets of Vedanta. Not Ibn Arabi, not al-Hallaj, can properly be claimed to be parallel to Shankara, nor can they be claimed as a ladder eventually leading up to Shankara, as they themselves explicitly write against an annihilationist crypto-Buddhist position of Shankara. All you have is shitty Guenonian hermeneutic, which rewards skim reading and drug abuse (dude opium is good for meditation lmao), and nothing else.

>>20448046
However, having read and continuing to read about all this, you may come to a certain impasse or crucial realization — indulging in exotic Orientalism, some sort of “mystical” titillation at all these exotic names, orders, terminology, references to certain pieces of literature and practices and sayings, itself becomes a massive veil over your search! Instead of authentic spirituality, you simply develop a “spiritual”-seeming nafs (Arabic for “self”, used in Sufic psychology as referring to a lower or degraded self — hence, “The seeker struggles or wages war against their own nafs, which is the jihad-al-nafs, the major jihad as opposed to minor one,” could be one saying made).

Using exotic spiritual terminology and having the feeling, “Since this is so different from and exotic compared to my own culture, it really contains massive sanctity, wisdom, and depth, and is contributing to my spiritual development!” is itself a detour of the nafs!

Instead of genuinely becoming a Sufi, one develops a “Sufic” nafs!

Adopting MULTIPLE cultural veneers does not necessarily contribute to authenticity either!

This is why modern Sufis like the controversial Idries Shah, who was projecting the teachings and outlook of the Naqshbandi Sufis into the West, opted for a much more “Westernized,” and almost secular-seeming, psychological formulation of the teaching. Another figure of note worth mentioning is the Persian psychologist and Sufi A. Reza Arasteh, who wrote “Rumi the Persian: Rebirth in Creativity and Love” (1965) about the interface between what he calls in English the “social self” and the “cosmic self”. The social self corresponds to the nafs-i-ammara (or “the commanding self”) of Sufic psychology, and the cosmic self to the ruh (heart) and qalb (spirit) of the human being, deeper aspects of the human self, all also as per standard Sufic terminology commonly used in the literature.

Great frameworks for struggle against and attempted escape from the prison of the nafs, can and should be found in the vast corpus of Sufi teaching stories and literature collected and generously given to the world by Idries Shah, but this is only in my own opinion, a random poster on /lit/.

Eventually, I believe the natural orientation any authentic spiritual seeker has to come to is the urgent question of how to achieve what might tautologically be called “self-conscious boosting of one’s inner awareness or intensity of spirit.”

Teachings about non-duality hint at this — but it is not enough merely to have some idea in one’s head about it. Experiential non-duality becomes an urgent necessity, beyond just “believing” in it, “wishing” about it, reading on it, and so forth.

But then the question comes: how CAN or DOES one do this on one’s own?

It’s apparently impossible.

One then needs reverence for and inspiration from others whom one sees as more spiritually advanced than oneself.

>>20448171
>Great frameworks for struggle against and attempted escape from the prison of the nafs, can and should be found in the vast corpus of Sufi teaching stories and literature collected and generously given to the world by Idries Shah

Embarrassing. Go straight to the mack daddy of Sufism, Ibn Arabi. No commentators, just the primary texts of Ibn Arabi. Read The Meccan Revelations, his final work or The Translator of Desires, some proto-Dante poetry.

>>20444602
>freemason
>critiques of modernism
He is nothing but a LARPing modern.

>>20445451
That's a lot of jew puppets and pseuds.

You can find Guenon's critiques of modernism in other places. He stole from everywhere, and most of his books are written to appeal to the neo-Thomist reactionary worldview.

>>20445451

>>20448132
>and there really isn't,
Certain Indian Sufis like Khwājah Khwurd’s and Dawānī’ posited a similar model to Advaita where God alone is real and all else is unreality/illusion/falsity, and certain Persian Sufi poets like Shabestari write about this too. Your ignorance of them doesn’t mean these people and their parallels to Advaita dont exist.

>In some ways, Khwājah Khwurd’s (and Dawānī’s) stance on wujūd picks up from where Mullā Maḥmūd (and Ṭūsī) leave off. Mullā Maḥmūd, as we have seen, aims to safeguard the distinction between God (the “Necessary Existent,” wājib al-wujūd) and the created entities of the universe (the “possible” or “contingent existents,” mumkin al-wujūd) by postulating an intrinsically distinct existence—or “specific existence” (wujūd khāṣṣ)—to each thing. This means that every last object, including the Necessary Existent, is innately distinguishable from every other object because its own particular, concrete existence is inherently unique in relation to all other objects and their particular existences. Khwājah Khwurd, in turn, renders the distinction between the Necessary and the possible existents even starker by positing that there is, in fact, only one existence to speak of, namely, the existence of the Necessary. The possible/contingent existents, on the other hand, do not actually possess any existence of their own, but are merely “tinged” (inṣabagha) by the Necessary’s wujūd.

>Not only do possible entities not possess any existences (wujūdāt) of their own, Khwājah Khwurd insists, but, even further, they never really possess any share or portion of the Necessary’s existence either; rather, possible objects only acquire some ambiguous state of apparent existence—or, more accurately, “existent-ness” (mawjūdiyyah)—through relating (intisāb) in some fashion to the one and only existence there is, the Necessary existence. As such, Khwājah Khwurd concludes, the seeming existence of the possible objects is, in actuality, unreal (ghayr ḥaqīqī), while the Necessary’s existence alone is truly real. In the process of arguing that the sole actual existence is the Necessary existence, Khwājah Khwurd affirms, like Mullā Maḥmūd, that the mental, universal concept of “existence” that resides in our minds (fī’l-dhihn) has no objective, extramental reality in the world “out there” (fī’l-khārij). Rather, for Khwājah Khwurd, the one and only real existence is not a universal that can be predicated of more than one thing, but only a single, discrete, concrete particular.

>>20448132
Also, the religious scholar RC Zaehner when writing about al-Ghazali’s esoteric teachings in the Mishkat al-Anwar, calls al-Ghazali “a non-dualist of whom Shankara himself would have been proud”, the passage is from his book ‘Hindu and Muslim Mysticism’ wherein he also calls several other early prominent Sufis non-dualists

>>20448307
don't give attention to that guy; he isn't even a musim, he is that ibn arabi spammer who read a few pages and imagine himself to be a specialist

>>20448147
>nor can they be claimed as a ladder eventually leading up to Shankara, leading up to Shankara, as they themselves explicitly write against an annihilationist crypto-Buddhist position of Shankara
People can advocate a position that is a ladder to something superior to their own position without being aware of it themselves! I dont know why anyone would be so foolish as to think otherwise. If they were aware of the truth they would likely just advocate the superior position, so its actually logical to assume they would be uncognizant of the ladder status of their own position.

>>20445451
counter-initiation

>>20448132
>he never read an actual text by Ibn Arabi, just one text that was a false attribution
oh sure, that's why he quotes and explains stuff from other texts of Ibn Arabi

>>20448307
>>20448320
>Certain Indian Sufis like Khwājah Khwurd’s and Dawānī’ posited a similar model to Advaita where God alone is real and all else is unreality/illusion/falsity, and certain Persian Sufi poets like Shabestari write about this too. Your ignorance of them doesn’t mean these people and their parallels to Advaita dont exist.

Irrelevant literal whos. You're dodging the important part which is that Guenon specifically cited Ibn Arabi for proof of his Traditionalism. He told Europeans to find move to the middle east because of this. What a joke.

Nobody cares about those people you cited. Ibn Arabi is called the Greatest Sheikh for a reason.

>>20448132
>>20448354
>This “poverty” (in Arabic El-faqrulisten)) also plays an important role in Islamic esotericism; in addition to what we have just said, it also implies the complete dependence of being, in all that it is, vis-à-vis the Principle, "outside of which there is nothing, absolutely nothing that exists". ( Mohyiddin ibn Arabi, Risâlatul-Ahadiyah ).

>This is how the lettermîm, for example, is sometimes used to designate theMahdî;Mohyiddinibn Arabi, in particular, gives it this meaning in certain cases.

>on the contrary, it is a question of regular adaptations necessitated by the circumstances of time and place, that is to say in short by the fact that, according to what SeyidiMohyiddinibn Arabi teaches at the beginning of the second part of 'Al-Futûhâtul-Mekkiyah, each prophet or revelator necessarily had to use a language likely to be understood by those to whom he was speaking

>In the Islamic tradition, the two “nights” of which we have spoken are represented respectively bylaylatul-qadrandlaylatul-mirâj, corresponding to a double "descending" and "ascending" movement: the second is the nocturnal ascent of the Prophet, that is to say a return to the Principle through the different "heavens" which are the superior states of the be ;as for the first, it is the night when the descent of theQurânis accomplished , and this “night”, according to the commentary ofMohyiddinibn Arabi, is identified with the very body of the Prophet.

>in any case, in Arabic, we make the difference very clearly;Mohyiddin, in his commentaries on the Qurân, very often likens “Er-Rûh” to the sun and “El-Qalb” to the moon.

and there is more, for anyone interested just search here for the word "Mohyiddin": https://www.index-rene-guenon.org/Access_book.php?sigle=ACR1&page=109&keyword=LEMURIE

I don't care about your opinion and I am aware that you are full of bad faith. I post this only for anons who might have read a little of Guénon but are discouraged by your lies.

>>20448373
>You're dodging the important part which is that Guenon specifically cited Ibn Arabi for proof of his Traditionalism.
No, he never cited it as ‘proof’, but just another example of a traditions esoterism tending towards monism/non-dualism. He never claimed to offer ‘proof’ and was unconcerned with convincing hylic skeptics, that’s a strawman claim by you. If Ibn Arabi happens to be more like Ramanuja it doesn’t really change Guenon’s traditionalism at all, it just means that Ibn Arabi is more like a ladder to a higher positon, without being aware of it himself, like Ramanuja.

>He told Europeans to find move to the middle east because of this.
From Guenon’s perspective, being initiated into one of the ladder doctrines is still one of the best things someone can do in the modern world anyway, so that doesn’t make his advice invalid. Most people, even most people who are into esoterism, are not even ready for the highest truth and so something more fitting their capacity is better than going over their head and floundering.

>Nobody cares about those people you cited.
Except for the Indians muslims who still read them and the western scholars who write about them in books

>>20448391
Beside the point coping. Ibn Arabi many times refutes the Shankara position. You've tried to claim that you understand Ibn Arabi better than me but each time I refute you.

Just a reminder to the anons reading this that Ibn Arabi called the Guenon/Shankaran form of union the temptation of Iblis in a commentary on his poems (to explicitly refute any accusation that he teaches the same garbage as Shankara). Ibn Arabi in his famous proto-Dante ascension narrative said that he met Aaron and Aaron explained to him how what we could call the Shankaran position on maya is wrong. There are literally countless passages where Ibn Arabi firmly goes against core Guenonian tenets. Only coping skim reading Guenonians think otherwise.

>>20448399
>No, he never cited it as ‘proof’,

He did. Right in Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta.

>From Guenon’s perspective, being initiated into one of the ladder doctrines is still one of the best things someone can do in the modern world anyway, so that doesn’t make his advice invalid.

Ad hoc cope. Ibn Arabi won't get you to Shankara. Believing that is like believing tranny pronouns will make them not want to kill themselves. Delusional.

>Except for the Indians muslims who still read them and the western scholars who write about them in books

pathetic lol

>>20448669
>Im simply pointing out that if Ibn Arabi is closer to Ramanuja, then it can still be consistently maintained that his spiritual path is an indirect and delayed approach to the Absolute of Advaita, just like the same is true of Vishishtadvaita and Bhedabheda Hinduism generally

This isn't true, because you keep avoiding the problem that Ibn Arabi is against this. You're literally saying "Yeah but what if you move to the middle east and follow Ibn Arabi's teachings for years where he says don't do this and then suddenly one day you just do it instead" to cope for Guenon being a wrong LARPing theosophist orientalist.

>>20445451
Holy counter-initiation.

>>20449099
>This isn't true, because you keep avoiding the problem that Ibn Arabi is against this.
It’s not a problem as I’ve explained to you before because this can be true without Ibn Arabi himself realizing this, but apparently you are too stupid to grasp this very simple point. If Arabi agreed with it himself then he would just advocate that view directly, so him disagreeing with it is EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT if Ibn Arabi’s position was a ladder and not the final position. The premise of his teaching being a ladder could only be necessarily false IF HE WAS COMPLETELY OMNISCIENT AND THEREFORE AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT IN HIS DISAGREEMENTS which neither you nor muslims/sufis accept, so the only thing that would make your claim reasonable is ruled out from the very beginning, ergo your claim is complete nonsense and you should be embarrassed.

>You're literally saying "Yeah but what if you move to the middle east and follow Ibn Arabi's teachings for years where he says don't do this and then suddenly one day you just do it instead
No, I’m saying his approach is comparable in aspects to meditating on the qualified or Saguna Brahman, which is a lesser approach than directly realizing the Nirguna Brahman, and that people who spend their lives meditating on the Saguna Brahman go to the Brahmaloka at death, therefore if Ibn Arabi’s position is closer to Ramanuja’s then according to Advaita you can spend your whole life following Ibn Arabis teaching and doing 100% of what he recommends and at the moment of death you’ll go to the Brahmaloka and have a long time to work on reaching moksha in an elevated spiritual realm. Ergo, if Ibn Arabi’s teaching is closer to Ramanuja then it becomes an indirect path to the mountain summit of non-duality.

>>20448674
that is true brother
I just showed a young man the way of Guenon(pbuh) tonight and turned him away from hippie-psychedelic cancer types like Terrence McKenna and others.
It felt good, and I owe it all to Guenon(pbuh)

>>20443008
>Orientalism
Like Christianity?

>>20445451
Could be a more impressive list all things considered

cross-Tradition debates are never not funny
fuckin /lit/ brahmins needling each other over the smallest shit kek

feels good to be a high ghibelline kshatriya desu

>>20449265
Evola is better than Guenon, I'll admit that.

>>20445451
>Guenon
>Freemason
Yeah, we all know. But still, I wonder what spooked Guenon so much when he was in the Martinist order that caused him to autistically write about fake religions, the anti-tradition, and eschatology?

>>20449291
they both have their strengths and weaknesses
I (re)watched that one Evola interview on Youtube this afternoon and was quite impressed. Where I agree with him on Guenon's shortcomings is that the IMPERIVM is just as valid as a /trad/ition as the Church for the West (and reviving the Church is pretty much impossible).
High Ghibelline Grail seekers... We are gonna /make it/!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib2vAwM4dY4


ps Upton is the man

>>20449354
>I wonder what spooked Guenon so much
who knows!?
could it have been a gradual redpilling event?
or maybe it was a one time event like he was in attendance at some high level meeting of the counter-initiation?

fun to think about what kind of shit he might have seen in the pseudo traditional circles at the time
Upton says in Vectors that it shook the young Guenon to his very core

>>20444602
I actually agree. I used not to but I do now.

>>20443008
>Not le Catholicism so.... ITS 'REE 'ASONRY

>>20443008
>I guess it's better than Evola's gay pagan King Arthur LARP
That's where you're wrong, kiddo

>>20449265
>cross-Tradition debates are never not funny
fuckin /lit/ brahmins needling each other over the smallest shit kek
I like reading from all the Traditionalists and I find they all have their own insights that I can't commit to a single school. Guenon is stern and conservative in his thought. Evola is stern too but he's also Nietzschean and inspiring. Schuon approaches Tradition as a Path of Love and Bhaktic to an extent, but he is a counterbalance to Guenon and Evola's sternness, however. If I get too lovey dovey from reading too much Schuon, there they are, Guenon and Evola to smack me upside the head when I read them again. It's so much fun. You have have a few "left" and former hippie Traditionalists like Charles Upton and Marty Glass who have interesting takes too.

>>20449354
Good opportunity to post a quote from Guénon's correspondence with a catholic woman that shows what a chad he was:
>On the other hand, I also penetrated into different occultist organizations, which was the only way to really know them, and that does not prevent me from being an opponent of the occultists; I can even say, without boasting, that I am almost the only adversary they seriously fear, and they have quite a few reasons for that; those organizations too, I've been accused of tearing them down, and there's some truth in that.

>>20444602
>plebian mutt mysticism
No thanks. Magical initiatic Western Traditions are totally superior.

>>20449265
Evola is supra-based.

occultism is kino

>>20449265
>kshatriya
Yet here you are on an anime website, responding to shitposters. Where's your spear, Arjuna?

>>20449417
Grail autism will one day surpass all other forms of autism on /lit/

Screencap this

>>20449438
>I like reading from all the Traditionalists and I find they all have their own insights that I can't commit to a single school.
Hey, as Charles Upton says, you gotta be a Perennialist for some time before one can become a Traditionalist
Everyone has their /trad/ niche and the vast paths available within the traditionalist school is what makes it great.
>when I read them again. It's so much fun
exactly!
I am on my second cycle of re-reading all my /trad/ books and it is amazing how the redpills keep on coming.
>>20449500
>Where's your spear, Arjuna?
it's at the pawn shop

If you guys wanna see genuine counter-initiation, look up "Gruppo di Nun". It fits the Traditionalist criteria to a T, even with the name (a rip-off of Gruppo di Ur - take that spiritual fascists!).

https://diffractionscollective.org/under-the-sign-of-the-black-mark-interview-with-members-of-gruppo-di-nun/

What's messed up is you don't even need to have any special abilities or real discipline/training to do what they do.

>>20449515
If you could read French or Italian it would open the door to so many other writings branching off of Guenon or Evola.

>>20449500
He's fighting off the demonic trannies through shitposts, know your place dirty shudra.

>>20448413
rando anon here
>Ibn Arabi in his famous proto-Dante ascension narrative said that he met Aaron and Aaron explained to him how what we could call the Shankaran position on maya is wrong.
can you explain further?

>>20448413
>There are literally countless passages where Ibn Arabi firmly goes against core Guenonian tenets.

false, this is what Ibn Arabi had to say:

>This is why the Prophet said “He who knows his soul (ie himself) knows his Lord”. He says again “I have known my Lord through my Lord.The Prophet of Allah wanted to make it clear by these words that you are not you, but He;Him and not you;that He does not enter into you and you do not enter into Him;that He does not come out of you and you do not come out of Him.I do not want to say that you are or that you possess such and such a quality.I mean that you absolutely do not exist, and that you will never exist either by yourself or by Him, in Him or with Him.You cannot cease to be, because you are not.You are Him and He is you, without any dependence or causality.If you recognize in your existence this quality (ie nothingness) then you know Allah, otherwise you don't.

This is from the text translated by Ivan Agueli and there is no point in believing what you say. The translator mentions in the introduction that the style is similar to other texts of Ibn Arabi (this implies that he had also read other akbarian texts) and even though he acknowledged that there are people who attribute this text to other sufis, he rejects this idea. Now, who should people believe, you and some profane academics like Sedgwick or an initiated sufi translator, of which translation was approved by his non-western sufi masters? From the introduction:

>some say that the author is Mohammad Abu Abd-Allah ibn Ali Mohyiddin ibn Arabi el-Hâtimi et-Tâ'i el-Andalûsi, nicknamed the most tall of the Sheikhs (m. 638 H.). I am convinced that our great Master is, in fact, the author of this admirable treatise. The style indicates this quite sufficiently.

Personally I am not very interested in reading Ibn Arabi, especially in the average academic translation so I won't start to read books just to refute someone on an image board, yet what I've read so far is enough to make you look like a clown.

>>20448482
Ibn Arabi has a couple 'ascension narratives' where he goes up to paradise/God in a sometimes strikingly similar way to what was described in Dante's Divine Comedy. In the ascension narrative described in Ibn Arabi's masterpiece The Meccan Revelations, he goes up to heaven and meets all the major prophets on the way, each teaching him something. When he meets the prophet Aaron, he tells Ibn Arabi that people who think the world isn't real (le maya) are retarded and have an imperfect form of mystical knowledge. Ibn Arabi also chastised Sufis who go into retreat and say similar things. Guenon and Guenonfaggot would have realized this if only they had actually done their homework and read Ibn Arabi.

>>20448513
>This is from the text translated by Ivan Agueli

You massive retard. You realize I've been saying the whole time that this text is a proven misattribution? And this was already known before Ivan Agueli translated the text. It's by Ibn Sab'in, not Ibn Arabi.

You're a retard, I'm sorry but it's true.

>>20449529
>If you could read French or Italian it would open the door to so many other writings branching off of Guenon or Evola.
fr fr my dude
it does seem like some of the more schizo topics that branch off Guenon are only available in French
>>20449463
>I am almost the only adversary they seriously fear
what a legend

>“Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!”
-Nietzsche

>>20448413
>Beside the point coping. Ibn Arabi many times refutes the Shankara position.
Wrong, Ibn Arabi had never heard of Shankara, nothing he wrote involved a logical refutation of anything Shankara says, Ibn Arabi disgreed with the idea that the body isnt eternally present in the afterlife, but he doesn’t provide any argument “refuting” the contrary position, I dont think you even know what ‘refute’ means.

>Just a reminder to the anons reading this that Ibn Arabi called the Guenon/Shankaran form of union the temptation of Iblis in a commentary on his poems
That’s an unsubstantiated accusation and not a refutation, it’s just petty name-calling.
>>20448420
>He did. Right in Man and His Becoming According to Vedanta.
Wrong, he never said, “this is proof of X”, its just of many comparisons he draws without making any explicit claims about those comparisons proving anything, stop lying

>Ad hoc cope. Ibn Arabi won't get you to Shankara.
Yes it will and its quite simple how, according to Shankara much/some of the stuff Ibn Arabi talks about amounts to meditation on the qualified Brahman, which elevates to a non-ultimate spiritual state and then when the body of a person who follows this path dies their body goes to the Brahmaloka where they then have billions of years to reach moksha. Therefore, according to Shankara, Ibn Arabi and people following other practices based on the qualified Brahman went to the Brahmaloka, where the better of them then reached the Advaita moksha and went beyond the Brahmaloka to the Ultimate. You seething hysterically in every thread like a crybaby doesnt change this.

>>20448550
Stupid.

>>20448544
>You realize I've been saying the whole time that this text is a proven misattribution?
you are wrong

>>20448556
>I've never read Ibn Arabi but let me LARP to 4channers like I know what Ibn Arabi is about because I have a mental illness/financial incentive in shilling Guenon on /lit/ 24/7

>>20449595
Learn French and stop writing like a wigger.

gg guenonfaggot, you lost

>>20448567
You understood nothing. You don't know how to differentiate between the different point of views. What you cited is related to the opposition WITHIN MULTIPLICITY of the worhiped and the worshiper. If you will read the quote that I posted above, you will see that Ibn Arabi rejects the idea of unity to affirm that of awareness (literally advaita-vedanta), therefore it is not your ego (which he calls nothingness) but your inner self that is God (you know, Atman-Brahman no distinction etc.) and ALWAYS WAS GOD.

To come back to Agueli, this is what his akbarian masters thought about his translation of Ibn Arabi:

>I have now translated my articles on Ibn Arabi into Arabic … The few people in our time who understand the Master, admit that I have fully understood his thoughts... I have met a number of the Master’s disciples in all classes of society. They are all very interesting.

Why do guenonfag and this other 'crypto-buddhist' guy endlessly argue in every thread? Don't they ever get tired of it?

>>20448555
Not an argument. You’ve been refuted.

Saying “Ibn Arabi = meditation on qualified Brahman = ladder to Advaita” is completely consistent and logical

>>20445268
Voltaire's only good take

>>20448652
For the record, I am open to the idea that some interpretations of Ibn Arabi read him as agreeing with Shankara. Im okay with either reading of him being true; Im simply pointing out that if Ibn Arabi is closer to Ramanuja, then it can still be consistently maintained that his spiritual path is an indirect and delayed approach to the Absolute of Advaita, just like the same is true of Vishishtadvaita and Bhedabheda Hinduism generally.

>>20448643
>Don't they ever get tired of it?
Discussing Guenon (pbuh) and everything Guenon-(pbuh)- related is a boundless source of joy

>>20448674
Peace peace peace!

>>20445268
>>20448660
I unironically agree with this

guys can we talk Evola now

>>20449491
Occultism is a jewish trick for hippies and women.

>>20445451
I mean I already knew that anarchsim was counter-tradition and counter-initiation but to find out that Proudhon and Bakunin were literal freemasons takes that shit to the next level. I was familiar with Burke and Maistre being masons though, which also shows that conservatism is also counter-initiation, but thats also obvious without that information. Honestly, politics at all in today's world is counter-tradition.

>>20444602
indeed, catholic orthodoxy

>>20443393
You 'literally' take language to literally.
Hyperbolic use of words is an intentional act, and nitpicking about it isn't a genuine refuation of anything.
I don't care about the rest of the post since I'm not OP and have never read Guenon, and as such have no stake in anything more than commenting on your autism.

>>20450599
you have no idea what counter-tradition and counter-initiation means

>>20452812
Then tell me

>>20452824
counter-tradition =/= counter-initiation =/= pseudo-spirituality
Before throwing labels at your adversaries, try to understand what those terms mean. Also, by your logic Guénon was also "counter-initiation" because he was a freemason.

>>20452849
Whatever bro its all shit

>>20452849
Freemasonry is counter initiation
But Guenon denounced it in his final years

When will we have our first GuenonCon?

I’m thinking we do it in DC 2023

>>20452939
>But Guenon denounced it in his final years
there is no proof of this, quite the contrary

>>20453268
>>20452939
Is it Sufi propaganda? Maybe
Upton said this too, and I think his sources are Lings and Schuon
>>20453196
Which has me thinking
We should do it at an esoteric Washington DC freemasonry spot

>>20453281
Is not sufi propaganda, there were sufis in North Africa who used to be freemasons. Is either lies or the product of his/their imagination.

>I would add that it is not incompatible with any other initiation either, especially if it is only considered in a way as "accessory", which in any case its current state certainly justifies...With regard to Islam in particular, no one, even in the Islamic countries, has ever thought that there could be any incompatibility whatsoever, and that as well from the esoteric point of view as from the exoteric point of view; here, for example, there have always been Masons for a long time both among the “ ulamâ ez-zâhir ” and among the members of the various turuq . For these, there is moreover at least one illustrious example: that of the Emir Abdel-Qader, who, apart from his external role, was a mutaçawwufeminent (which European historians naturally seem to ignore), and who was received as a Mason during his stay in Alexandria. Here is something more: Sheikh Elîsh (1) said that "if the Masons understood their symbols well, they would all be Muslims"; and, in this regard, he explained the 4 letters of the name of Allah, in relation to their forms as corresponding respectively to the ruler, the compass, the square and the triangle...

from a letter to Schuon, 1946

>>20444633
Huh I wonder who were the ones who changed the Nicene Creed when the Ecumenical Councils clearly states that any changes will result in anathema.

>>20453196
>I’m thinking we do it in DC 2023
Guenonfag here, I live less than a days drive from DC, lets make it happen

>>20453196
I don't live in murica

>>20453456
Based!
Okay we’ll do it. Let’s aim for first half of 2023.
>>20453541
Get here

>>20448247
There’s a certain fascinating psychological know-how encapsulated in the tenets and outlook of the Naqshbandi Sufi order as transmitted by Idries Shah. It’s interesting to me that people highly reverence the relatively abstruse, dense, theological and philosophical vagaries of Guenon about Sufism (and the idea of Tradition, and schools of thought like Advaita Vedanta, and so forth) but cut themselves off from the wonderfully enchanting source texts, folk tales and teaching stories genuinely in circulation amongst and used by Sufis and dervishes today as part of their system of teaching.

An analogue might be someone in India being fascinated by an Indian philosopher’s studies and thoughts of Christianity, but viewing the parables and sayings of the New Testament as “beneath them,” “not the real thing,” “not as interesting”, “relatively trivial.”

>>20453338
R u a freemason

>>20444602
Men like Guenon and Tomberg tried to reconcile Nicene Christianity with reality, but any one who knows as much as they did inevitably ends up rejecting it.

>>20453655
I already said no

>>20453879
Alright alright thought u wuz the same anon, just making sure

>>20449238
>>20448550
It is interesting to note about this that Rumi writes in his Fihi ma Fihi (“In It What Is In It”), a prose work, being a collection of his discourses on religion:

>In Winter you have to look for a fur garment, but when summer comes you have no time for it, it is an encumbrance. So it is with imitations of real teachings. They keep people warm until the time comes when they can be warmed by the Sun...

>>20453893
A good tip in understanding the sufis is to realize how complex some of their writings can be, which taken literally would just contradict eachother. Unfortunately, these days we see too much of a salafi version of Sufism, where only the letter counts (like it has become with all traditions, esoteric or not)

>>20445956
You clearly haven't read Guenon, this is an embarrassing show of ignorance as to his ideas
captcha: JIGGR

>>20448567
Skimmed the debate but this post just proved you're an exotericist who grasps nothing. What is said in that image in no way contradicts Guenon or Shankara. You just have extremely poor metaphysical ability and can't tell the difference.

>>20445451
Wait... What Grand Lodge is on that apron? State of... I can't make it out. Somebody help me.

White readers of Guenon:
>he has a very unique perspective with some great criticisms of modernity, clearly possesses a remarkably high level of knowledge
Brown readers of Guenon:
>THE PROPHET GUENON PBUH HE IS SECOND ONLY TO MOHAMED PBUH HIMSELF PRAISE BE TO ALLAH FOR THIS BLESSED AND HOLY MAN OF INFINITE WISDOM ALL MY SONS SHALL BE NAMED AFTER HIM PBUH

People here should Read the Guénon - Vasile Lovinescu correspondences, and all the correspondences related to the Swiss tariqa, and it's degeneration, just all the correspondences, and they will get a view into the deluded schizo world of Guénon and co. Who were very human and fallible, Guénon and his counterinitiation, talk about a "dacian tradition," for any orthodox Christians they would be particularly interested int thr Vasile lovinescu correspondences, people on here speak of guénon so highly as if he were anything but a ranting schizo along with the Romanian in question, all based in speculative etymologies, concocting elaborate conspiracies, there counterinitiation is all involved in balkan politics and so forth, they name politician after politician, make references constantly to things of a psychic order, guénon alludes to this book too, and there is some truth to it, once you get initiated or seek it you will know, there very much is this "shakti awakening" pretty much universally and this is what it all boils down to, not all thr books are great.

Guénon devotees obsessing over the doctrinal aspects clearly don't see the reality of some things that they will only learn through experience and initiation, aswell as association with the proper circles, some also especially in the "internet age" can't work out the implications initiatically and psychically speaking,

Also it should be noted that guénon was positive at some point thst the Antichrist was born around his time, according to muh
>Muslim calculations
And that the world was going to end by the end of the 20th century, he talks about visiting astrologers for horoscopes, in some of his letters he actually gives advices on Dhikr to these initiates who read his books abandoned everything to get initiated via schuon, the financial aspects of that whole operation, which degenerated extremely fast.
And for maybe an anon who used to say that evola was counter-initiation and he's not involved with all the other "trads" obviously they have never read the Full correspondences and have a holistic view of that.

Guénon also retroactively refutes the use of "Aryan race" which he instead says is rightfully the "boreal race"

>>20454867
His criticisms and perspectives are self-evident, and I Gained nothing from reading him apart from insight into the strange world of Orientalist freemason larpers of the mid 20th century, once you actually start looking into guénons beliefs the seven towers of Satan, how he works, how they are all making comparisons, with dubious etymologies, like dictionaries, you will realise that guénon is only a good introduction to metaphysics, and even then his presentation is totally irrelevant and basic.

He is unironically from what has been evidenced secondarily, a typical larping western esotericist, and all the guénon devotees on here are deluded, by the grandeur of it all, I am not saying some of his perspectives aren't tolerable, however juvenile

>>20454908
Once you actually take it seriously, and realise you must treat guénons works now in the scope Of reality as it is, you will realise how underwhelming it all is, the external appearences of guénons work, his particular phraseologies, his feigning of a sort of universality as if he were truly supra-individual its all a hoax, the guy was an opium smoker chasing states if conciousness, addicted to novelty and mystery, and especially dissolution, I have no clue why he thought it was appropriate for him to write books in the way did organise networks of fellow collaborators and larpers, apart from maybe a financial interest in ensuring the continuation of his "habits."

The guy had no reason to ever talk about "West" and "east" this relative approach was only there to induct readers (particularly western) into a dissolutive state of mind or in fanciful guenonian terms "supra-individual" getting a taste gets them hooked, guenons insistence on terminologies and semantics, Jewish apologia, all I can say to people in this thread who may see this, don't bother Save yourself from the "guénonian" mindvirus it is very possible that guénon is puppeteering people through his books by establishing a sort of hypnotic connection with the readers, I would say stay far away, and if you have already poluted yourself you will need a long time to get over it,

/lit/ has unfortunately fallen ill to this parasitical puppeteering, some of them as evidenced by the more farsically technical and elitist in this thread are way way way too far gone.

From my end all I can do is laugh a bit about this monkeying around induced by guénon and his group of circle-huddlers.

>>20454908
>Also it should be noted that guénon was positive at some point thst the Antichrist was born around his time, according to muh
>Muslim calculations
No, it was to what a moroccan shaykh said and he said that he was just borned, not that he appeared to the public. That could mean many things.
>And that the world was going to end by the end of the 20th century
That was as a reply to Lovinescu who asked if the world could end in the first half of the 20th century. In his books Guénon says that we should abstain from predictions, in the sense that they are fallible.

>>20454908
this

>>20445268
>>20445258

none of that refute the point that all the fundamental ideas on guenon's critic of modernity were already established by voltaire, blake, the romantics and so on and so on, this dumbidea that guenon made any advance on the critic of modernity and industrialization ignores centuries of literature

>>20444602
I think you meant "LARP Christianity" there.

Oh wait, that's all of them

>>20454963
I saw him shilled a lot here so I recently started reading Crisis of the Modern World.
So far it's been good, but as you say, there's nothing I have read so far that is particularly awe inspiring. Perhaps he fleshes it out later, but he spends a lot of time talking about tradition and super rational without defining them at all. The concept of universal truths surpassing many religions isn't a new one to me either, CS Lewis was somewhat along those lines as well.

Speaking of Lewis, before people make their minds up by reading Guenon, they should read some Chesterton or Seraphim Rose in my opinion. I think you're overstating the issue by calling it a mind virus, but the vehement and rather rabid argumentation centered around specific terms and concepts popularized by the author is a bit much, that's for sure.

The 'puppetteer' effect you reference has less to do with Guenon himself particularly I would say, and more to do with anons taking a first sip from a tall glass and declaring their thirst quenched.

>>20455423
>started with crisis of the modern world
You're doing it wrong you should start and continue in the chronological order of guénons publishing,
If you do you will understand exactly what he means by supra-rational etc. Ultimately, he has a point, but it is all just words words words, to compel the reader into initiation, and the feelings of bliss, and subtle development which ensue.

That's all initiation breaks down into, personal bliss, and unmatched feeling of personal development - done correctly, the abandoning of name and form - essentialy you die before you die, think of the feeling you have when you get married - if you have. Initiation done correctly is like a permanent marriage, and you're filled with these feelings permanently and constantly,

That's all it is, the intellectual coping from guénon and co. Is just induction, the allusions guénon makes to this and that, extra-corporeal possibility, he never goes further and he never simplifies his language, because they are incommunicable.

Later stage "trads" know exactly what I'm talking about, beginner trads who've never joined a tariqa, or have never taken diksha with a swami, know this, or serious Freemasons.

If they have no clue about what I'm talking about, then they were never born with the capability, if it's all still purely words words words, and intellectual they don't know what they are talking about.

A person who has been initiatiated, and has that feeling of being one with space, of center in their heart, who can shut off their sense organs and contemplate this overwhelming voidness, guenon in his private correspondences says, that this nonmanifest that he is depositing is precisely symbolically best described and only described as "void."

You can find schizos here who sweat the details, like "green dragon" and so on, these are shudras lost in bibliographical things, not initiates.

Guénon relative to an actual religous tradition is Nill, and his words are all rationally derived, guénon is so against what he perceives as independent esoterism, only because he wants to always be involved in his readers lives, he would like graft onto their experiences, guide their decision-making.

>>20455302
Orthodoxy is the most legitimate or possibly initiatic Christian tradition there is according to guénon but it is still illegitimate, because guénon is all "muh arabic" bro, "muh hebrew," he says he has no hope honestly, and doesn't care for reviving the West through Catholicism, and that he only leads people on in his books, because he wants to appease his audience.
When guénon saw the future "destruction" of the his world, that was just a buzzword for what /pol/lacks call white genocide, and he didn't care for it and honestly thought it was deserved.

>>20455747
>>20454908
>>20454963
stick to your race and politics polemics

>>20455747
*beginner stage trads do not know this, especially those who hype him up here.

>>20455752
I am initiated, and I already don't care about politics or race, these subjects don't interest me.

You tell me something have you actually experienced these degrees of being guénon talks about?

If you have and you are not just here larping as a bibliographer then I'll take you seriously.

>>20455756
>>20455759
>just here larping as a bibliographer
stop projecting. you are mostly concerned with superficial matters. you say for example "these are shudras lost in bibliographical things, not initiates." but you based yourself on letters and their lives.

see >>20455747 >>20454963 >>20454908

>People here should Read the Guénon - Vasile Lovinescu correspondences, and all the correspondences related to the Swiss tariqa, and it's degeneration, just all the correspondences, and they will get a view into the deluded schizo world of Guénon and co. Who were very human and fallible

you are the same "muh blood and soil" anon who got offended by the claims evola was not Trad. You also decided to post attacks on guénon and guenonians after you got rejected from a guenonian discord kek so you invert things by calling them shudras and pretend to be superior

>>20455759
I'll for a response your response to this
>>20455752
If you don't respond then that tells me all I need to know concerning you.

>>20455768
I have no clue what you're talking about, typical schizo behaviour. You're not even responding to anything, I am asking have you been initiated and so forth, this thread is not purely spiritual in its ends, it's about the author as a name, if you think you're "above" those things then you should make a thread devoted purely to spirituality, but I guess that doesn't fit your model.

>>20455774

>just here larping as a bibliographer
>these are shudras lost in bibliographical things, not initiates

says the one who posted:

>People here should Read the Guénon - Vasile Lovinescu correspondences, and all the correspondences related to the Swiss tariqa, and it's degeneration, just all the correspondences, and they will get a view into the deluded schizo world of Guénon and co. Who were very human and fallible, Guénon and his counterinitiation, talk about a "dacian tradition," for any orthodox Christians they would be particularly interested int thr Vasile lovinescu correspondences, people on here speak of guénon so highly as if he were anything but a ranting schizo along with the Romanian in question, all based in speculative etymologies, concocting elaborate conspiracies, there counterinitiation is all involved in balkan politics and so forth, they name politician after politician, make references constantly to things of a psychic order, guénon alludes to this book too, and there is some truth to it, once you get initiated or seek it you will know, there very much is this "shakti awakening" pretty much universally and this is what it all boils down to, not all thr books are great.

>Guénon devotees obsessing over the doctrinal aspects clearly don't see the reality of some things that they will only learn through experience and initiation, aswell as association with the proper circles, some also especially in the "internet age" can't work out the implications initiatically and psychically speaking,

>he talks about visiting astrologers for horoscopes, in some of his letters he actually gives advices on Dhikr to these initiates who read his books abandoned everything to get initiated via schuon, the financial aspects of that whole operation, which degenerated extremely fast.

????????

>>20455768
They Should read these communications, because it actually clarifies further the experiential reality of guénons ideas, especially the manifestation of them in the tariqa as I said. Don't get me mistaken I am not bothered in the least by you pretending to keep notes on people here, as this arguably shows that exact same "bibliographic" tendency, we are on an anonymous image board here, so go ahead and reply, to what I said about your actual initiatic experience, because a purely theoretical understanding is merely the beginning, you could definitely be stuck in that theoretical stage for a lifetime, which is what it seems like.

>>20455787
i don't believe in guénon's views on initiation to begin with. for someone who dislikes guénon so much it is surprising seeing you stress being initiated when this was the major concern of only guénon and not the others

>>20455785
You're trying to the do same thing about me, non-initiate, go ahead, reply to my reap question, tell me about your initiation experience and not merely theoretical understanding of guénon, you can clarify here don't worry no counterinitiation is going to get you.
>>20455787
Not so his "ideas" in that original sense but his tension

>>20455791
>attacks guénon's whose major interest was in iniation
>claims to be initiated

ok so in what have you been initiated?

>>20455790
Hahahaha, so you're not even initiate and you have purely theoretical or intellectual grasp of his metaphysics... because that was honestly the only thing in guénon which was actually closest to the truth, if you have actually experienced the psychic planes and such, and have an insight into the extra-corporeal possibilities for example, them I will take you seriously that was exactly what i spoke about from the beginning of my talk about the correspondences.
>>20455794
Stop deflecting shudra.

>>20455799
I mean the "Initiation" aspect was the closest guénon was to the reality, but in practice of course and in acrual experience he left many things out.

>>20455790
>dislike guénon
Obviously you are retarded, to me "guénon" does not have any real existence in this oppositional sense, i hate nothing to attack, i like nothing to defend, people affirming him constantly on this board is my problem. I am just deconstructing the relativity that you shudras are caught up in, and trying to get at the point that it is all just a "recruitment" or "induction" for initiation, IN reality, not this theoretical headcanon about how "chad" guénon was this and that. And clearly you have not even neared upon the reality of initiation I was talking about before, because surely you should know that, that is exactly what all this is dependent long...

>>20455791
>>20455799
you attack other people for the things you do. this is projection.

you claim others are only interested in "bibliographical things" (i think you mean biographical) while your critique revolves around biographical details. then you go around asking for my initiation certificate while claiming yourself to be "initiated" (into what, i wonder...) after criticizing guénon, for whom the central point was initiation

you are a very confused person and i can guarantee you are larping as initiate. by calling me or others a "shudra" doesn't solve anything.

you believe you have initiated yourself – and i hope you did not resort to new age means.

>shudra this shudra that
>muh aryan race
>i am intiated!!! (a novelty now)
very tiresome, as always

>>20455821
Read here:
>>20455818
I have no problem with Guénon, obviously you can't see through criticism, I am just trying to see if you're a genuine initiate, and before when I talked about that "shakti awakening" and such - that was my main point; you never responded, so that tells me that this isn't a reality for you, and you did not really follow through with initiation or guénon.

Good day to you, why would you be so disturbed by the epithet shudra, you nigger cattle trash blood feces urine shit, it doesn't matter in the least, and I don't mean a single proper thing by it, words are words.
>>20455824
On that note guénon calls it "boreal" race.

>>20455824
>very tiresome, as always
I have never been here before and spoke in this fashion, i am just being a "copycat" for various reasons. More to do with you than me. But afterall who are we fooling, this is an anonymous imageboard.

>>20455747
good post

>>20454908
>People here should Read the Guénon - Vasile Lovinescu correspondences
Can u post a link pls

>>20454830
And just in case you couldn't tell that the square and compass is a six pointed star, they threw one in the middle of it so it's clear.

>>20455831
>gets triggered by the popularity of guénon
>claims to be initiated
>go to every thread about guénon to attack him and his readers
>desperately project others as being shudras
>complains about people who concern with bioraphical details by going to biographical aspects
>despises guenonian claims to initiation
>asks for my initiation even though i dont believe in the guenonian idea of it

>>20455839
>this is an anonymous imageboard.
i know very well who you as i have interacted with you before

>>20455831
>On that note guénon calls it "boreal" race.
This is much better than ‘Aryan’
Any real /pol/tard knows that de Gobineau’s pseudfaggotry set us back centuries.

>>20455847
>Despises guénonian claims to initiation????????

Need I repeat to you that I am not whoever you think I am. That is the most correct thing guénon was able to cover in his book. Obviously you did not understand what I meant by "copycat" either, quite amusing. Let's just say that I was expecting your reply. As I said, I am not truly criticising anything, I love guénons work, it's great.

>>20445360
Every Sufi I have ever met had nothing but praises for his works and advised people to read it to better understand what theit own teachings. And they never refuted a single point of his.

>>20455855
your tricks don't work on me

>>20455856
A sufi doesn't "refute" anything full stop, same with any other genuine initiate.

too many of us, is time to take some names

>>20455863
Congratulations on your self-initiation into the namefag order
May KEK guide you

>>20455791
>tell me about your initiation experience
>>20455831
>I am just trying to see if you're a genuine initiate

it is worth telling you that i will never disclose my spiritual realization (with its initiation) on a 4chan thread, especially to you, nor boast about being an initiate as a way to belittle others like you do or expect. you even acknowledge this thread "is not purely spiritual in its ends". all this confusion and the manner you act are clear indications of the lack of authenticity in your spirituality and initiation

imagine boasting about being an initiate on a 4chan thread lol, you couldn't prove yourself to be a bigger counter-initiate

>>20455759
>I am initiated
>>20455791
>non-initiate, go ahead
>>20455799
>Hahahaha, so you're not even initiate

>if you have actually experienced the psychic planes and such, and have an insight into the extra-corporeal possibilities

whatever false initiation you claim to have had, it did not imprint onto you a higher spiritual character and the clearlest indications are your actions on this board and the fact you boast about it on 4chan – any person serious about spiritiual realization would hate both lying and pride. experience of pyschic planes and extra-corporeal things are stuff that new age occultists do every now and then. do you think astral projection would be enough to qualify someone as initiated?

>>20455887
>it is worth telling you that i will never disclose my spiritual realization (with its initiation) on a 4chan thread
Cmon, the other anon has a point
I understand it’s a deeply personal matter but at least give us a glimpse into your moment of spiritual realization
After all, we are not hylics here.

>>20455940
do think one should put into public what he has of the highest order or guard it at the core of his being? as it is written "do not throw pearls before the swine"

>>20455914
>actions on this board
hahaha
>>20455887
i am also bound to vows
>>20455843
the formatting is horrible, and the greek words etc. (in both pdfs them) are all wrong on there, but you should get the just a brief idea of what theyre talking about, since you dont know french you have to make do i guess:
evola (youll find the boreal stuff, also its interesting to note, if youve only read the gornahoor letters between - he didnt include them all.
anon files + /T5M6Zalbyc/evol_1_pdf
Lovenescu:
anon files + /9aPeZdlcyc/lovr_1_pdf
starts on page. 4, this is where you will at least get a dose of what i alluded to before the schizo rubbish.

>>20455948
it doesnt matter, you realise that 'immutable' means immutable, noone cares if you disclose anything anyway, so continue with your purely theoretical circlejerk elsewhere,

we are not giving advice as to how exactly we should attain "realization" that would be outside of the scope, but in reality, it doesnt matter, non-initiates dont understand anyway.

If you feel that if you disclosed something here, you will begin a descent, or you will be punished with hellfire along with your guru or teacher, then that is your problem.

>>20455957
Thanks
>since you dont know french

>>20455957
>then that is your problem
and you shouldnt disclose a single thing, just for your peace of mind obviously

>>20455914
I should also add, I have no "pride" in this respect, I am not gesturing or pretending, I know that in essence the initiate and non-initiate are equal, even the shudra and the brahmin are equal, aswell as the greek and the jew, however, do you not understand that what I am saying is that these discussions on Guenon, without the disclosure of traditional resources but just instead the discussion about "Him" as a historical character, and the purely theoretical doctrine in his books is pointless.

experience is what is predominant always, reality is what is first in this sense, not these elitist debates and /lit/ nitpicking over the profane letter and writ, really i dont care about it at all, and i dont care about being right or wrong here, or about these illusory "actions" being judged correctly or incorrectly, it all will amount to nothing, in fact, theres no point in me being online here at all, and I will assuredly leave now, you annihilated me in that debate.

>>20455957
>>20455968
https://www.index-rene-guenon.org/Access_book.php

just use the automatic translation

>>20456005
Ah
I was looking for this website yesterday and could not find it via search.
Grazie

>>20453999
Okay zoomer. Now try to read Ibn Arabi and you'll realize he's very far from Shankara and cannot be reconciled with Vedanta.

Now someone who is actually closer to Vedanta would Eckhart, but Guenon never read him, just like he never read Ibn Arabi.

> God says, 'Let him not associate one with his Lord's worship'...what is understood from this verse is that He is not worshiped in respect of His Unity, since Unity contradicts the existence of the worshiper. It is as if He is saying, 'What is worshiped is only the 'Lord' in respect of His Lordship, since the Lord brought you into existence. So connect yourself to Him and make yourself lowly before Him, and do not associate Unity with Lordship in worship. Do not make yourself lowly before Unity as you make yourself lowly before Lordship. For Unity does not know you and will not accept you. Hence you would be worshiping Him who is not worshiped, desiring Him who cannot be desired, and practicing without object. That is the worship of the ignorant.' Hence God negates the worship of the worshipers from having a connection to Unity, since Unity is established strictly and only for Allah. As for everything other than Allah, it has no Unity whatsoever." - Ibn Arabi, Futuhat al-Makiyya (II 581.4)

There are hundreds of passages where Ibn Arabi goes against core tenets of Gueonianism and Advaita. Sorry, mate, but that's the truth.

>>20453999
Okay zoomer. Now try to read Ibn Arabi and you'll realize he's very far from Shankara and cannot be reconciled with Vedanta.

Now someone who is actually closer to Vedanta would be Eckhart, but Guenon never read him, just like he never read Ibn Arabi.

> God says, 'Let him not associate one with his Lord's worship'...what is understood from this verse is that He is not worshiped in respect of His Unity, since Unity contradicts the existence of the worshiper. It is as if He is saying, 'What is worshiped is only the 'Lord' in respect of His Lordship, since the Lord brought you into existence. So connect yourself to Him and make yourself lowly before Him, and do not associate Unity with Lordship in worship. Do not make yourself lowly before Unity as you make yourself lowly before Lordship. For Unity does not know you and will not accept you. Hence you would be worshiping Him who is not worshiped, desiring Him who cannot be desired, and practicing without object. That is the worship of the ignorant.' Hence God negates the worship of the worshipers from having a connection to Unity, since Unity is established strictly and only for Allah. As for everything other than Allah, it has no Unity whatsoever." - Ibn Arabi, Futuhat al-Makiyya (II 581.4)

There are hundreds of passages where Ibn Arabi goes against core tenets of Gueonianism and Advaita. Sorry, mate, but that's the truth.

>>20456242
To add, or repost from archives:

Schuon noted that Shankara goes further than Ibn Arabi

>Hence for Schuon, Vedanta was something like a key unlocking the very same truths found at the heart of Ṣūfism, truths only obscured by the limitations of Islamic theology. On this point he elaborated, “we take our stand on Shankaracharya [the founder of Advaita Vedanta], not on an Ibn ʿArabī; the latter we accept only insofar as we find in him something of the Vedanta” (Lipton 2018: 138).
>In line with nineteenth cenutry Orientalist and German Romanticist understandings of language family and race, Schuon believed that Ṣūfism suffered from a Semitic “subjectivism,” and hence it lacked the objectivity to “consistently discern the transcendent formlessness of essential truth from religious particularism,” while holding that the “Aryan metaphysics of Vedanta and Platonism” retained this objectivity (Lipton 2018: 122). In his work Le Soufisme: voile et quintessence (1980) Schuon summarises his perspective on this issue describing Aryans (Indians, Persians, and Europeans) as “above all metaphysicians and therefore logicians,” while characterising Semites (Jews and Arabs) as “a priori mystics and moralists,” and “subjectivists” (Schuon 2006 [1980]: 21).

>>20456242
>For Unity does not know you and will not accept you.
Ibn Arabi is condemning here the idea that your ego unites with God. No contradiction with Advaita. When you achieve the Supreme Identity, there is no longer any "you" but God alone.

>>20456254
>worshipping him Who is not worshipped, desiring Him who cannot be desired, practicing without object, is the worship of the ignorant.
Guenonbros......
Well I'm still waiting for the sufi tariqas and Islamic esoteric initiatic lineages and brotherhoods to reclaim the world from the global counterinitiation, if we look at the affairs of the Middle East, we can really see the Resistance and revolution of the sufis, and even the taoist sages of China, incredible, that must be the eternal civilisational immutability and stability guénon was talking about, soon the sufis will liberate the west with their superior metaphysics and bhakti.

Based.

>>20456281
don't forget about the lemurs man

>>20456242
You're right, nonduality through duality, Ibn Arabi is speaking from a more relative point of view nonetheless, such a thing is not at all in contradiction with Vedanta regardless.

>>20456278
This is what I am talking about when I say that "there is no longer any 'you' but God alone":
>This is what is signified by the words Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God." People imagine that it is a presumptuous claim, whereas it is really a presumptuous claim to say Ana 'l-'abd, "I am the slave of God"; and Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God" is an expression of great humility. The man who says Ana 'l-'abd, "I am the servant of God" affirms two existences, his own and God's, but he that says Anā l-Ḥaqq, "I am God" has made himself non-existent and has given himself up and says "I am God," that is, "I am naught, He is all; there is no being but God's." This is the extreme of humility and self-abasement." (Rumi, commenting on the famous expression of Mansur al-Hallaj)

>>20445451
Every single one of them an inferior man to Charlemagne and Godfrey of Bouillon

>>20445829
Again, Guenon preaches a pseudo-religion that was invented in the 17th century. It claims roots in the late Middle Ages but those are dubious at absolute best. In all reality, it has no tradition. It is simply a rebellion against the West first and foremost and Christian orthodoxy second. That’s it. There is nothing fundamentally traditional about anything at all that Guenon preaches and in fact, what he preaches is not orthodoxy in any religion anywhere but his own little cult. He is a snake oil salesman of the esoteric and mystical. Now, that might not be such a problem for people in countries where religion still dominates, but that is particularly bad for Westerners precisely because we’ve lost our orthodoxy and what Guenon would have you do is imbibe in his literal bullshit under the guise of fleeing Eastward. I sincerely believe anyone who has read a lot of this guy and still believes his bullshit is a complete fool.

>>20443008
No, because Evola is also an edgy fool who bought into pseudo-mystical bullshit, but if you read his books you discover that his ultimate conclusion is essentially “Look, things are really bizarre right now, but that has to come to an end eventually so instead of buying into bullshit pseudo-mysticism and phony esotericism, just try to consider this a spiritual test and hope that eventually the pendulum swings back” which is a far more positive and realistic message for Westerners especially than any of Guenon’s insane opium induced ramblings.

>>20456363
Then again, he does encourage a lot of like bullshit tantra and made up occultic left hand path stuff in the meantime that would probably be even more destructive in the end than anything Guenon suggested so maybe I take it back.

>>20456254
Schuon actually read his sources and realized Ibn Arabi isn't sandnigger Shankara, like Guenon thought.

>>20456278
>When you achieve the Supreme Identity, there is no longer any "you" but God alone.

Yeah, Ibn Arabi thinks this is wrong. You can say Shankara is better than Ibn Arabi, I don't care. But at least admit that Guenon said a lot of shit that was wrong.

>>20456357
Correct. Guenon's Vedanta comes out of the common Theosophist circles of the time. His understanding of Sufism and came from an equally dubious source, Ivan Agueli. Guenon's "Tradition" is something that only existed in his cloud of opium smoke. I read nearly all of Guenon's books and many of the sources he cited and realized that Guenon was a fraud. He can get you thinking about interesting things, but ultimately in order to gain anything out of Guenon you must reject him at his core.

>>20456357
>Again, Guenon preaches a pseudo-religion that was invented in the 17th century
Wrong, Guenon (pbuh) BTFO’d pseudo-religion and hylics like you, he advocated people remaining within a long-established tradition while pursuing the esoteric teachings within that religious tradition in a traditional manner

>>20456385
No, he's right. Saying PBUH and BTFO and hylic won't change that.

>>20443393
>his idea have
nigger

>>20456393
>No, he’s right
Not really, kek. Nothing about what Guenon thought is a pseudo-religion. Saying as he did that one can fully adhere to a religion while viewing it as an expression of an eternal metaphysical truth is not advocating the creating or following of a pseudoreligion.

>>20456393
>>20456380
Are you Christian? Dyer fans? I’m curious as to where this new wave of Guenon critics is coming from? They are unlike the previous waves (materialists and leftards, then Buddhists and Whiteheadians).

>>20456363
*puff puff*
Ahem
>On the subject of counterinitiation, I think you have seen what I wrote last year about the ‘Seven Towers of the Devil’, in the account of Seabrook’s book, which refers to that which is in the Yezidis, that is, in Iraq. For the others, it refers to certain regions located near the borders of Siberia and Turkestan; There is also Syria, with the Ismaili of the Agha-Khan and some other rather suspicious sects; then Sudan, where there is a ‘lycanthrope’ population of around 20 000 in a mountainous region (I know from eyewitnesses); further in the center of Africa, on the Niger side, is the region from which all the wizards and magicians of the ancient Egypt came (including those who fought against Moses); It seems that with all this we could draw a kind of continuous line, going first from North to South, then from East to West, and whose concave side encircles the Western world. Naturally, this does not mean that there are no other more or less important centers outside this line; you were talking about Lyon, and there must be something in Belgium too. As for America, the most suspicious point seems to be California, where so many heterogeneous things gather; it is true that they are mostly pseudo-initiatory organizations, but there is surely something else that leads them, even without their knowledge; the use of pseudo-initiation by agents of counter-initiation, in many cases, appears to be less and less doubtful, and I intend to speak about it shortly in an article, on the occasion of a history of so-called Rosicrucian organizations... - With regard to Iraq and California, there is a question that intrigues me rather, because it obviously falls within a field that is hardly mine: it is the relationship that appears to exist between these locations and those of the oil sources; unfortunately, there are also some of these in your country, and wouldn’t that be why (although there may be other reasons as well) it is getting a little too much attention from some people? Also note, in this regard, that Sir Henry Deterding, the head of the Royal Dutch, is a character quite comparable to Basil Zaharoff; It is even said that he would be designated as his successor... - For the famous list, I wondered if there were any names that could have been misunderstood; but if she's at the machine, there's no question. I have asked for information about English names that we do not know; I don't have the answer yet. If I get something, I’ll let you know.

>"Stretching across Asia, from North Manchuria, through Tibet, west through Persia, and ending in the Kurdistan, was a chain of seven towers on isolated mountaintops; and in each one of these towers sat continuously a Priest of Satan, who by "broadcasting" occult vibrations controlled the destinies of the world for evil."

*occult vibrations*

>>20456409
>For the Tarot, I think that its use is not to be recommended, and that even it is preferable to refrain from it (I also said it some time ago to Mr. Caudron), because it seems to serve easily as a vehicle for psychic influences that are not always of the best quality...

>Romani Gypsies have initiation:
>For the Tarot, I think that its use is not to be recommended, and that even it is preferable to refrain from it (I also said it some time ago to Mr. Caudron), because it seems to serve easily as a vehicle for psychic influences that are not always of the best quality. There was a lot to be said for it, but it is certainly an exaggeration of its importance. in any case, it is completely unknown outside Europe. Its origin is very obscure, and its connection with the Gypsies is not exactly a recommendation, for they seem to have had only a lower order initiation (limited to the field of certain traditional sciences), and thus easily lend themselves to many deviations.

>I am not talking about your horoscope again, since Mr. Caudron himself told you what he had seen, and I can only repeat the same things to you. Here I know only one (non-professional) astrologer who might find something more; But I haven't seen him for a long time, and I don't know where I could meet him now...

>Another character, similar to Basil Zaharoff, is Sir Henry Deterding of the “Royal Dutch”; haven't you heard of it in all this? I also wonder whether the list of Basil Zaharoff does not include Lloyd George, Philipe Sassoon, Venizelos; do you know? - In any case, this is certainly not reassuring as to the direction in which events may take; it must be said, however, that these are not entirely new things, for it has been more than 40 years since Clémenceau was "initiated" by Cornélius Herz, as Herriot was able to be by Basil Zaharoff (and that is why he too has always been so linked to English interests); But it is no less true that this is now taking on much more extension than ever... Of course, if the Antichrist is already born, events must rush; the most diverse indications, moreover, agree to suggest that everything must happen before the end of the twentieth century; perhaps it would be imprudent to try to specify the dates more precisely... a very active counter-initiation agent was the late Prince Albert of Monaco; You can still see the connection with Basil Zaharoff on this side!

Guénon was absolutely terrified of this man:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Zaharoff

He was somehow "psychically" manipulating guénons buddy, he knew what they were up to and such and its all related to "Maglavit’s apparitions" some psychic phenomenon which happened in Romania at the time.

>>20456407
Pan-Vedanta being the secret religion/tradition behind all other religions/traditions is indeed a made up religion that has its origins in the 17th century at the earliest. Guenon is a product of his time. He comes out of the same milieu as Blavatsky, only Guenon was vain and pretended he was doing something different from her. I'm sorry, but Guenon only adhered to a strict non-syncretic exoteric tradition when he moved to Egypt. Until 1930 Guenon was practicing a weird syncretism of Freemasonry, Sufism, and LARPing as a Catholic. Advaita is overrated and not strong metaphysics. All your counter-arguments just argue past the point while adding a wall of unnecessary text.

Guenon can make you consider things you wouldn't have before, but if you have half a brain you'll realize Guenon is to be rejected ultimately.

>>20456380
>Yeah, Ibn Arabi thinks this is wrong
No proof. I just demonstarted that what you see as proof of this is referring to another thing.

>>20456437
>Guénon was absolutely terrified of this man:
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Zaharoff
>He was somehow "psychically" manipulating guénons buddy, he knew what they were up to and such and its all related to "Maglavit’s apparitions" some psychic phenomenon which happened in Romania at the time.


Guenon was paranoid and vain. What a delusional retard. He was so prideful and vain that he felt there was a massive conspiracy out to get him anytime he was contradicted or critiqued. All these edgy annihilationists end up having a giant ego. They're hypocrites and frauds.

>>20456408
Jay “more like Gay” Baseder seems to criticize “perennialism” (which he equates with new age and ecumenism) as often as if not more often than rival Christian sects (one accusation he levels against Aquinas, Catholicism and Natural Theology is “perennialism”). I wonder if the Dyer cult is competing for the same niche as perennialism and is sending his minions out on raids or is it more like an internal struggle, that he feels like he needs to exorcise perennialism from his own self by publicly denouncing it (he admits he has entertained it in the past, just like Seraphim Rose, it seems to be a temptation for those that would be attracted to orthodoxy). Just an hypothesis.

>>20456439
>Advaita is overrated and not strong metaphysics.
What is strong metaphysics then?

>>20456445
I can bring up dozens of passages where Ibn Arabi affirms that "you" never ceases to exist like Shankaraway. Ibn Arabi always affirms the existence of the self and its personality. You can pilpul this however you like but it's so obvious you're talking about things you don't understand and have not read.

>>20445482
No. Why do you think tos because of this thread I made?

>>20456461
Anything that isn't an internally inconsistent plagiarism of Buddhism is leagues better than Advaita.

>>20456466
Meant for
>>20456408

>>20456463
>you're talking about things you don't understand
you are projecting

>>20456437
Post moar!!!
I love this kind of shit
>a very active counter-initiation agent was the late Prince Albert of Monaco
Interesting…

Guenonianism rewards skimreading and a globohomo perspective on world religions. It allows people to not read the primary texts and just interpret what little they know of them however they want.

>>20456466
I don’t know the new wave of Guenon critics don’t seem to come from a position of materialism or Buddhism. They seem to criticize Guenon for his (perceived) “occultism”, which betrays the language of Christian fundamentalism. This and Dyer’s frequent public denunciations and (self?) criticisms of “perennialism” and how Dyer fans and 4channers would seem to overlap make me put two and two together. When a group wants to establish dominance over a niche they first go after those that are closer before they go agains their enemies.

>>20456439
>Advaita is overrated and not strong metaphysics.
Advaita is the final red-pill and is undefeated, unrefuted and perfectly consistent

>>20456380
Guénons advice:
>As regards your other question, I believe that the advantages of contemplation borne by means such as dhikr are indeed those that you say, and that therefore it is appropriate to take advantage of them; pure contemplation may sound more direct, but in fact, in many cases, the opposite may be true. It is doubtless not necessary to generalize anything, because the same means are not equally suitable for everyone; but, almost always, one must at least observe a certain “graduation” and proceed in some way by stages. That is why I wonder whether a direct contemplation of Parama-Shiva, as you say, while being possible in principle, can be ‘practicable’. As for the awakening of the Shakti, it goes without saying that it is only one method among others, and probably one of the most dangerous... But it is not only this that is “tantric”; This term has a much broader meaning than is usually thought, and also, it must be said, less clearly defined.

>>20456446
>The news you give me of Basil Zaharoff’s current projects is not very reassuring yet; It would be really curious to know if you will be nominated to be part of this group... This so-called "King of the World" 16 years old tells me nothing good either; It seems to me, however, that Armilûs should be even younger, but I cannot say anything about that. On the other hand, it is quite certain that counterinitiation always seeks to establish itself, especially where there are possibilities in the opposite direction, in order to try to oppose their development, or even where there were formerly spiritual centers, in order to take advantage of what these places may have special features to promote the diffusion of psychic influences. This last point reminds me that I had once noticed some rather peculiar things about the places where the Bolsheviks had established their main nuclei of influence in Asia; Unfortunately, I don’t remember all this in detail, and I wouldn’t be able to find it right now...

>"Catholic VMA" is direct derivation of the "Primordial Tradition"
>It is unlikely that the Catholic VMA could have come from the Hindu tradition; It must be a more direct derivation from the Primordial Tradition.

>For the “Unknown Superiors”, it seems to be rather a “sporadic” action in a way, after the break of the regular initiatory links for the Western world. - There are always some remains of Maç∴ operative; But the characters you're talking about, in the early 19th century, belonged to rites of high rank (Alexander I, too, by the way), which is quite different. The case of Eckartshausen is less clear, and somewhat similar to that of Boehme; There is a certain amount of hermetism in him, but how far does it go?... - For Napoleon, I was thinking, in connection with Malta, of something related to the Orders of Knights; It is curious that Malta seems to have been a "center" from prehistoric times.

>>20456497
It's just people who have actually done their homework and read the primary texts and realize that there are irreconcilable differences in these traditions, and that behind them does not exist a crypto-Buddhism. Guenon is just not very good, but can write in an obscure and open-ended way that lures people into thinking he's saying stuff that is deep and primordial.

>>20456517
>" I have the book of "Inquire Within," and even a second one that he published last year, "The Trail of the Serpent," where what you noticed is even more accentuated, to the point that I spoke about it, without naming it, in an article for "Traditional Studies" in May; It's quite curious that you told me about this just as I was writing it!
That book in pic here >>20454908

>The question concerning Christ is the most difficult to deal with summarily; It should be linked to the whole doctrine of the Avatara, and there would be a whole volume to be written on it; It is doubtful that I ever decide to do so, because, despite these developments, there is a great risk that this would be misunderstood... - Unfortunately, the present representatives of Christianity are themselves affected by the modern spirit, so that everything that is strictly doctrinal is less and less important to them; And that is why they come to the point, as far as Christ is concerned, of focusing only on questions of “historicity”, forgetting that it is Christ as a principle that is essential. Historical events, like all other facts, have a value as symbols, an expression of the truths of another order to which they correspond, without this taking anything away from their own reality as facts... You can apply this to the life of Christ, and you will then see that everything is also physical or historical reality, precisely because certain truths of transcendent order must be translated in this way in our world; But, of course, it is necessary to start from the principle, and we see the perfect uselessness of all these discussions, in which modern defenders of Christianity believe themselves obliged to place themselves on the same ground as their opponents and to use the same methods as they do, which would have no reason to be if they knew how to hold themselves to a strictly doctrinal and traditional point of view.

>The interpretation that 10th Avatâra is of the tartar race would basically agree with the tradition that it must come from “Chang Shamballa”, if one admits its location in the North of Thibet (besides the symbolic meaning which, of course, is not excluded by this). - For Armilus, I do not see that his manifestation cannot be subject to time in the sense that you say; If he is a human being, what he ‘embodies’ or represents at the same time does not change anything in this respect.

>>20456519
Alright fair enough. So what is your agenda?

Read the primary texts. Read the people Guenon cites as proof of his Traditionalism theory and you'll find a much greater richness and diversity than in Guenon's dusty and stale texts.

Guenon is just a ladder to you use to eventually kick away. Reading the primary texts gives you a deep of knowledge that is impossible to find in Guenon.

>>20456547
Coming on /lit/ and not seeing 20 lazy Guenon threads at any given time.

>>20456552
Kek fair enough

>>20456519
>realize that there are irreconcilable differences in these traditions, and that behind them does not exist a crypto-Buddhism.
That’s a strawman argument that makes me wonder if you’ve even fully read through Guenon, Guenon never says the esoterism of every religion is identical to Advaita, he says that in the esoterism of different traditions there are different gradients and that some are a more direct approach and some are more indirect or diluted, and that the indirect approaches are path on the road to the eventual same post-death end goal of the direct approach. In commenting on many different subjects in mentions certain thinkers and schools only getting things partially right, or having an internal kernal of the truth in them etc.

>>20456539
Guénon fears witches:
>If I learn anything about L. de Poncins, I will tell you, but I still do not know what may have become of it; I thought, for some reason, that he had to retire to Switzerland during the war, but I could not say. - As for the bewitchment, there is a great difference between true sorcerers like those he dealt with and mere occultists; these, despite all their claims, never achieve any effective result; there are many who have tried to do something against me, and like you, i have never felt anything about it... On the other hand, when you say that these things should not be able to reach those who have a true spiritual vocation (although I do not think that it can be said that this was the case with L. de Poncins), there is also a distinction to be made: if you want to talk about the psychic and mental side, you are absolutely right, but it is quite different from the corporeal point of view, and anyone can always be affected in that regard; Moreover, since witches have managed to make the Prophet himself sick, I really do not see who could boast of being immune to their attacks!

Don't get vaccinated it's counter-initiatic:
>As for what you tell me that doctors seem to understand nothing about it, I am not very surprised, because, in general, I have never had much confidence in modern medicine...
>It is very unfortunate that your condition is still not improving significantly; i do not really know what would be possible in such a case... Unfortunately, the old traditional medicine has completely disappeared here in the face of the invasion of modern medicine, which I, for my part, have always carefully refrained from resorting to!

>>20456497
We come from here. We are just people who wasted years of our lives on this rabbit hole and don’t want others to do the same. This stuff is destructive.

>>20456519
"reading primary texts" of religions and claiming to have completely understood them is a protestant thing. Texts are merely supports for a physical, oral teaching. You cannot claim to understand a doctrine because you "read primary texts", because you are alone with your own little intellect, free to understand or believe whatever your mind wants, especially if it is in an obscure language, a foreign tongue or symbolic. Every sufi will tell you the same. Claiming that because you read something (ex : Ibn Arabi) you can dismiss Guénon's take on sufism despite the fact that virtually every tariqa in Maghreb or in France have a high esteem for him (a respected member of the Shadiliyya and friend with the Dean of Al Hazar, by the way) is a typical example of why such claims are to be disregarded.

>>20456407
Guenon himself never even did that. He moved to Egypt and LARPed as a Sufi practicing a religion that again, isn’t regarded as orthodoxy anywhere in any religion, not even in Sufism.

>>20456439
He didn’t even do that. He practiced a form a Sufism that even strict Sufis regarded as heterodox nonsense. But you are spot on about the 17th century stuff and you clearly did your homework. It is some weird sort of NeoRosicrucianism, and nothing more. He is quite literally nothing more than a disgruntled Christian and one has to wonder then why it is he refused to engage deeply with Orthodoxy. That there is some man preaching Orthodoxy on YouTube today is irrelevant.

Guenon is a complete and utter waste of time at best and will destroy your life at worse.

Think about it. The extreme downside is that you are gambling with your immortal soul.

>>20456380
The big draw is his critique of the modern, secular West and it’s a good critique. That’s what gets people hooked, but that doesn’t mean anything else he puts forward is good or legitimate. He has captured the hearts of truly desperate people just like a snake oil salesman would.

>>20456638
>orthodoxy
>gambling with your immortal soul
Dyerite spotted. I was right.

>>20456616
>retarded brown turd thinks he is wiser than Guenon
Top kek

>>20456357
>Guenon
>preaches
Nothing you say after is worth reading.

>>20456658
As sure as everyone saw the conflict in Ukraine from a mile away I see the next, coming war in /lit/: guenonites against the third wave of anti-guenonites (Dyer fans). Get ready.

>>20456658
The fuck are you talking about? Is this supposed to be some sort of pathetic ad hominem? Some guy on YouTube is totally irrelevant.

>>20456659
This is pathetic.

>>20456675
Suit yourselves. We are just people that have been coming to this board for years and at one point, took the stuff seriously. As for myself, I do regret it and would have others avoid if they can so they don’t make the same mistake. That is all.

>>20456675
But seeing as guenon bros haven’t completely vanquished the materialist leftists and Buddhists, they will be forced to fight a war on three fronts.
Will Guenon bros withstand the night of this Triple Entente? Or will they bulk under the overwhelming weight of the combined forces of modernity?
Find out on the next episode.

>>20456597
>>20456597
>We come from here. We are just people who wasted years of our lives on this rabbit hole and don’t want others to do the same. This stuff is destructive.
Speak for yourself lol, I haven't wasted even a year, unfortunately for you though it seems otherwise...
>>20456602
I agree with you there, but really the oral transmission is easily accesible over the internet too these days in case you didn't know, of course it's not necessarily accesible over YouTube, but there are people who have spent their lives in a tradition, and who have been initiated and have devoted their lives receiving oral transmissions and have been given permission to teach, there are alot of frauds out there. And it's not even really about anything other than "submitting" to a teacher, as God himself, that's how it works in essence, "liberating" the ego.
>>20456675
>>20456671
Who here is talking about dyer? Just mentioning this guy is pseud tier, he has no influence I already went over that in my thread once and for all
>>20456649
That's not only his big draw, that's his whole method, the principle behind it is "crushing" the ego of the Western reader, the more westernised and the more obedient the better, to test if they are capable of embodying the supra-individual, the universal beyond name and form, you ultimately are left without a race, without a culture, without anything of the sort, as these things become merely "contingent" nominal accidents, and all together Guénons method while obvious is rather effective.
And not in a way which is corruptive or degenerative, as you ultimately but the entire "man" or "individual" on the sacrificial alter, this is what "Initiation" has always been, it's just that from aeon to aeon, there are various circumstantial modifications, to become one with God, truly means this as the most basic requirement, to become everything or nothing, in exclusion of every contingent accidental conditioning.

>>20456583
>Don't get vaccinated it's counter-initiatic
imagine how much covid-vax induced lethal heart attacks could have been prevented by more people reading Guenon

>>20456638
It depends. If you're interested in esotericism either in theory or in practice he is worth reading, probably the best there is in terms of theory and modern writers. If you just want comfy bible lectures and to memorize facts (profane knowledge) then ya Guenon is a waste of time. Christianity or some other abrahamic religion for slaves is definitely the easiest and safest path, or a "path" for cowards and sheep.
>gambling with your immortal soul
Only if you're really stupid, in which case you should stick to the abrahamic religions anyway.

>>20456676
>>20456683
>>20456700
Ah yes, deception is an advantage in a war, sure, but alas you’ve already given away your position and lost the element of surprise. It’s best to do a frontal attack now.

>>20456676
You're a complete fool with no spiritual enlightenment but you think you're wiser than spiritual masters. Jesus would not be proud, but christianity always has been a religion for the weak, so just ask for forgiveness and that makes it better, right?

>>20456700
It is the big draw. Guenon sucks you in by pointing out all the meaningless and ironic bullshit of Western modernity well enough that you simply take anything else he says at face value, but you know what? That is EASY. We live in the most secular, anti-religious civilization that has ever existed. You don’t need to appeal to any valid religion to give a scathing critique. You just need to appeal to ANY RELIGION, REAL OR INVENTED. Add a veneer of mysticism, occult aesthetics, some “esotericism” and bam, you have the suckers.

>>20456700
That whole game of guénon is to make the reader civilisationless and transcendent, or otherwise to lead them into anger, pride and self pity,
In fact assuming there are truly any Easterners amongst us these days - doubtable, they either become prideful or they remain in a transcendent state.

>>20456721
See, this is the thing. You think you have to be some sort of “spiritual master” claiming esoteric knowledge to be able to just actually read and sift through bullshit but you don’t. You’ve been taken for a sucker imo.

Guenon bros! We can’t fight a war on three fronts! It was bad enough when it was just the materialists and the Buddhists! I — I don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel, this tunnel of the Kali Yuga…

>>20456709
I want to agree with you because I don’t like telling people what they should and shouldn’t read, I just know how prone people are to take it really seriously because I did it myself and I know what kind of state people that come to a place like this are in because I was in one myself. You can go down a rabbit hole with guys like this that can be a huge waste of your life at best and a very destructive element of your life, and maybe more, at worst. If you take the guy seriously at all, it should be obvious that this isn’t a child’s game.

>>20456700
I don't give a shit about lame-ass jay dyer. His conspiracy stuff is good but when it comes to spirituality why would I listen to a christian who thinks esotericism is satanic? You claimed Guenon preaches, which is so idiotic that it really puts into question everything else you write. Christians are so often ignorant retards with practically no spiritual qualities, simply enforcing their own vulgar ego through religion, which metaphysically speaking is a satanic parody.

>>20456709
And I think it’s insanely hypocritical of a Guenon reader and believer to refer to any religion as a slave religion. You don’t have to be a Christian to think that’s shameful.

>>20456721
Lol. You are still stuck in a sort of dualistic oppositional Clinging,
>>20456723
The whole thing is to make the reader put his individuality on the alter, his name and form, to kill himself.
This is what is required for Kali Yuga second birth bro, it's a tough pill to swallow, but what it's all about.

Yes, from the truly non-dual perspective there is no "east" and "west" these are all relative techniques guénon adopted for a very obvious reason on second reading, that's all it's about, and it works - assuming you're fully passive to what he says, you essentialy forfeit samsara.

>>20456754
Don’t be a pedantic moron. “Preaches” was not meant literally as if he were a literal preacher.

>>20456762
Okay. Good luck to you. I just hope you remember what I said here at some point.

>>20456745
Many enemies
Much honor

Verily this enemy is a three-headed hydra — the very image of multiplicity and quantity! One head stands for secular humanism, another head stands for nihilism, another for (exoteric) fundamentalism. Who is able to vanquish it??

>>20456700
> I haven’t wasted a year
Yeah, we can tell.

>>20456732
Yes, you know everything and have a foul pottymouth. A very enlightened individual. Just kidding, christianity does not teach esoteric spirituality, so of course we are always seeing ego-bloated fools who think reading the discourses of some priests makes them more authoritative on spiritual knowledge. Meanwhile they can't even control their base animal instincts, much less begin to experience the occult foundations of man, which they are not even allowed to know about and which they disregard, which says a lot about the (experiential) knowledge of their priestly "elite", mostly that it is very incomplete or left in the dark.

>>20456762
Because man in this era of hedonism finds it difficult to really in a productive fashion which is not just depressive self-defeatism to look death in the face, and overcome it, to launch himself into the void..

Let me explain, the man who has possibilities today is typically enchained, in ancient times the man who had possibilities was not enchained, the man without any possibilities today is free, and the man in ancient times who had any possibilities was enchained.
Guénon targets primarily young men, who have civilisational Clinging to the West particularly, and deconstructs their attachment to lead them into a liberation or unchaining of possibilities, to then redirect them into that Promethean conquest, I can't be the only one who was already at that level of "nondualism" and "pure intellectuality" and "metaphysics" who was just reading guénons books and thinking, man this shit is boring, and??? What Guénon, West this East that, so all this was very clear to me from the beginning, this is only the basic function of his more contingent books, the other ones on metaphysics are just a novel sort of vedantic appropriation.

>>20456602
It has less to do with understanding primary texts and more to do with pointing out obvious logical errors and frankly, utter bullshit where they’re discussed, like in Guenon’s books.

Imagine I wrote a book talking about the Koran and then you went and read the Koran. You don’t have to understand the Koran directly realize that what I wrote was bullshit.

>>20456793
Okay. Good luck then.

>>20456752
>If you take the guy seriously at all, it should be obvious that this isn’t a child’s game.
Oh absolutely 100%.

Woe!
Woe!
Woe unto the followers of Guenon!
I am come — I, Kali!
Resistance is futile!
Kneel before me!
Worship me and I will give you the whole material world!

>>20456759
>And I think it’s insanely hypocritical of a Guenon reader and believer to refer to any religion as a slave religion
I definitely appreciate Guenon's wisdom but personally I am more of an aristocrat. The Abrahamic religions are basically part of semitic cancer, their function is to drive the entirety of humanity down to the level of its most inferior stratas. You can see this happen across history up to today and it makes perfect sense given the plebian origins of these religions. That isn't to say Jesus and others weren't very enlightened and worth following (I follow any true master), but the religious movements spawned by them are totally subversive and have ruined so much, and I have no problem saying that to you if you're posting in an esoteric thread.

>>20456799
I think I'm being too harsh, they weren't an "appropriation" but insofar as they were adapted into French, translated however many times, sure they were, I have always known that religion and metaphysics (i thought of it as philosophy, but i never read any modern philosophy).were on different levels, before guénon I already had that perspective, and being a diaspora I have never had any sort of Clinging to the West, or to civilisation, and I am a neet, same with evola, I think you guys forget that guenon and so forth wrote for their particular time period.

Only fundamentalists really react to guenon, those who are already enchained by concepts, the whole stressing on the
>NOOO don't use the word "system," nooo don't use this word, no that word, no mystic not initiate!!
It's all just a very relative point of view, I am not interested in that communication, or whatever guenon was interested in there, the truth needs no elaborate explanation in that regard.

For me though I never cared about religion in that sense, of Nooo Muslim Nooo Christian, that sort or dialectical rubbish.

Done.

>>20456767
That isn't pedantry, use words properly, especially on lit.

>>20456841
Uh huh. Sure you are. A real de Maistre you are.

>>20456841
You're stupid. Everything you just spoke about is non-existent, unfortunately you're still a low-level.

>>20456855
*a low level of your own volition.

>>20456602
>Every sufi will tell you the same. Claiming that because you read something (ex : Ibn Arabi) you can dismiss Guénon's take on sufism despite the fact that virtually every tariqa in Maghreb or in France have a high esteem for him (a respected member of the Shadiliyya and friend with the Dean of Al Hazar, by the way) is a typical example of why such claims are to be disregarded.
This is not a particularly good argument given that Sufism was influenced by Guenon after-the-fact, in much the same way as retrodiffusion from the West brought New Age ideas to India and East Asia. And in much the same way this new mode creates a positive feedback loop for ideas like secular Buddhism or a demystified Zen, or in this case the perennialism in Sufi teaching.
Remember also that Sufism has become a fallback position for intellectually-minded heterodox Muslims attempting to defend themselves from hardline fundamentalism.
With that in mind it's no wonder the Sufis in France and the Maghreb would endorse him, given it is where he operated and where his praise of their wisdom is well-known, but I frankly doubt either of us would actually have the linguistic competence to evaluate that ourselves.

>>20456409
Speaking of California, Charles Upton said in his UFO book that Mt Shasta was the center of a lot of pseudo-initiatory retreats and where he saw a UFO with his own eyes.

>>20456846
>>20456799
>>20456762
If anyone here doubts me and is a /pol/jaks I notice alot of people like this enter these threads ask yourself how guénon eventually marrying an arab woman and "racemixxing" is tenable with the "/pol/ worldview," actions speak louder than words.

>>20456888
Holy based... yeah I noticed this too, Terry Davis was definitely subjected to some sort of psychic influence.
As well as D.U.M.B.S.

>>20456841
I'm not going to dogpile onto you but every fault in the modern world can be blamed squarely on the Anglo-Germanic civic mindset, which started in their tribal customs, persisted through feudalism and then emerged to rape and reshape every element of European society according to the whims of Dutch merchants, German princelings, and Middle English ministers
Christianity was just another institution they destroyed

GWAYNON!
GWAYNON!
I WILL DEVOUR YOUR ATMAN
I WILL CRUSH YOUR FOLLOWERS
YOUR TEACHINGS WILL BE FORGOTTEN
GWAYNON!

>>20456519
>read the primary texts
All sufi sheikhs recommend their disciples to NOT read Ibn Arabi because his wrintings are too difficult to understand for the murid. Your methods have nothing to do with Sufism, you are just a profane pseudo-academic.

>>20456902
There are lots of polchuds with fetishes for le colonizing le inferior races and rescuing the Aryan elements in their savage societies
They're retarded but they exist

>>20456926
>devour my Atman
UPGRADING TO PARAMATMA
BTFO'D COUNTER-INITIATION

>>20456934
Racemixxing is unironically a left-hand path sufi initiation rite believe it or not. It helps to further "dissolve" the individuality. Polchuds are high-level initiates.

>>20456875
Show me an orthodox Sufi that endorses Guenon

>>20456952
They don't in fact his own order denounced him lol.

>>20456952
Yes anon, that was the point I was trying to make.
I think I need to be clearer in my writing

>>20456940
Noooo! I am vanquished! And I would’ve gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for you meddling initiates!

>>20456978
I've noticed that the only Muslims who back guénon are either western converts with seemingly "innocent intentions" but there are genuinely I've noticed Muslims who forward guénon as part of their evangelism rhetoric, which may have only nominally read guénon and think what he wants definitively is a total Islamisation of the West, which entails whatever political/social consequence which may come of it, the latter cases come on /lit/ occasionaly.

Personally I don't care about politics, and all that and I am not foreign to joining, a Muslim tariqa, or whatever and I have no problem with Muslims, but this is where it becomes a arguably a bit complicated for me, because I just don't like that idea of being absorbed into "Islamic civilisation" if it happened it would be entirely artificial, the middle east is not a traditional civilisation in the current day, this small thing which is not necesserily connected at all to guénon himself but to the latter day appropriations, for me really poision the well of what I see as something beyond those sorts of trivialities, and I think these people are one of the major obstacles, as I have recommended guénon to people, but as soon as they read into to the Study of Hindu doctrines, and so forth they just get crushed, and tell me that this shit is just "white guilt with extra steps" or just muh West bad, east utopia,
And I make this point because it obviously is a very real filter which keeps people totally away from all these things, instead I see it as a "sinister" mission of infiltration, or being a double agent, still it's all very entertaining.

>>20457046
This is one point which needs to he adequately dealt with, if guénon is to become an extremely popularised author, it's not simply a matter of biases, it's that these people feel an adversity from outside and can't cope, because they can't get absorbed in the purely intellectual and theoretical aspects and therefore always cling to that ideological rubbish of "muh Islamisation" and so on.

The second problem is people who read some portion of authors and then think it's their mission to "revive initiatic lineages" in the west, which guénon himself admittedly in his correspondences suggested that he never actually intended, and that it won't work, the degeneration of his tariqa evidenced as much, if Guénon himself could not form this sort of initiatic bridge between "east" and "west" while involved, why do these latter day appropriaters think this is their mission, this another thing which has to be dealt with.

What it should be about fundamentally is pure metaphysics, all these contingent things, are obstacles to someone who just tries to read this stuff and takes it seriously.

>>20456888
>>20456914
Here is Upton’s UFO experience

>Since I have chosen to write about the UFO phenomenon, perhaps the reader is wondering whether I have any direct experience of the phenomenon myself. The answer is: in a small way, yes.

>In the early 1970s, when my spiritual practice was entirely “experimental“ and self-directed, I decided to do a spiritual retreat on Mount Shasta in Northern California, a mountain sacred to the original Native American inhabitants, and also considered a “power spot“ by every occultist, neopagan, and new age group under the sun. I traveled there with two friends, drove up the mountain as far as the road went, and then hiked in, arriving at Horse Camp, set an a sea of fragrant “Shasta Tea” (pennyroyal), and high enough on the mountain to give a stunning, unobstructed view. For three days I ate nothing but brown rice, and also observed a vow of silence.

>On one of the nights I spent on the mountain, I had a significant dream—Perhaps my first “lucid dream” (a dream in which the dreamer “wakes up” to the fact that he is dreaming) since early childhood. In the dream I was gleefully aware that, since I was “only” dreaming, I could do anything I wanted – though the ironic look on the face of the woman I met seem to say, “yes, but not without consequences.” (Only after a certain amount of hard experience in later years did I begin to understand the meaning of that book.)
One evening, shortly after the sun disappeared behind a distant range of mountains, I sat meditating, facing west. In those days I used to meditate with my eyes open, and this evening, as I slipped into a light trance, I saw two points of light crossing the western sky, from right to left. The light they gave off with somehow more precise, more defined, more “real” an ordinary light. (Spectrographic analysis of the white emanating from the Certain UFOs has since revealed it to be richer in various blended wave links of a visible radiation than light from any known “natural” source.) As soon as I noticed them, I became alert, attentive; I rose out of trance, back to full waking and consciousness – and the lights disappeared. Then I relaxed, centered my energy, sank back into a meditative state again: and there they were. I realized through this experience that UFOs habitually exist on a subtler plane Of existence than the material – a plane which, however, is very close to the material and capable of impinging on it. The “craft” in question were not visible to my waking consciousness, but neither were they a mental image. They existed in a layer of reality that somehow came between psychic and the material end what some have called the “etheric plane.” (In later years I used the “etheric sight” I had began to develop during my retreat on Mount Shasta to investigate – In other words, two meddle with – the world of the nature spirits.)

Count..

>>20457093
>It is interesting that my one and only sighting of a UFO coincided with the first lucid dream of my adult life. Lucid dreaming involves a partial erasure of the border between waking consciousness and dream consciousness, between material and psychic reality; the selfreflexive Awareness of the waking state – or something similar to it – now has as its object not the world reported by the five senses but the subtle Psychic environment.

Then he goes onto say that most UFO abductees had dabbled in the occult.
And how this is all very bad shit nigga

>>20456924
VGH fucking Krautoids

>>20456675
>>20456658
We shall crush the Dyerites

>>20457093
>>20457102
I’ve had very similar experiences and can confirm the link between UFOs and lucid dreaming (AND dabbling into the occult). These are NOT nuts and bolts craft at all. Neither are they figments of the imagination.

>>20457175
Were you in California by chance?

>>20457183
Nope. Not even in a retreat but in my apartment.
>be me
>start dabbling into the occult, new age practices, practicing meditation and vegetarian for a year
>half asleep in my bed, see “helicopter lights” through the window, wake up and they’re gone
>another day see light-blue orbs coming through the window, accompanied by very strong bass sound and vibration, wake up and they’re gone
>another day, I hear the sound of a tiger beneath my blanket; blanket starts to rise on its own, wake up and nothing there
>a few months later on my parents house, see shadow figures with red eyes get out of the drawer, wake up and they’re gone
I lost my shit and never meditated again, resumed eating meat (if being vegetarian makes me see the stuff “out there” in the “etheric”, then I don’t want to be a vegetarian).

>>20456638
To take you seriously I will post some excerpts of what guénon new and said about orthodoxy, if anything you are in a way correct, guénon was oddly hesitant and wanted nothing to do with it, and it was also inaccessible to him..

>What you say about Orthodox monasteries is also an interesting question; I've heard about exercises in Russia where breathing plays a big role. As for Mount Athos, I have been told the same things as you. But I have not been able to clarify the matter any further, and I wonder whether these are not mainly memories of a more or less distant past and whether something actually still exists.

>I move on to the question of the monks themselves and their practices: “prayer of the heart” or “prayer of the intellect”, this assimilation is indeed remarkable and entirely in accordance with the teaching of all the traditional doctrines on the heart representing the seat (if one can say so) of supra-rational intelligence. Your description of this prayer, including the breathing rhythm, coincides exactly with what I have been told is also in use in some Russian monasteries (if I remember correctly, it is referred to by an expression that must mean something like “true prayer” or or “just prayer”). "Head-to-heart descent" is a fairly characteristic thing, as well as the "warmth of the heart"; It is said that in some cases even physical heat takes place and that some Russian monks also melted snow at a certain distance around them, which is very similar to the effects obtained by the Thibetan hermits... Obviously, this must be, at least initially, a process of awakening the Shakti; and there is also an analogy with the “endogeny of the immortal” in Taoist teachings; but is it still understood and used that way now? Finally, the cells you are talking about are quite reminiscent of the “khalwah” that is used in some Islamic organizations. - So much for the favorable side

>I have never had the opportunity to speak with other Greek monks than those of Mount Sinai; but they are completely ignorant of esotericism. Their very library, where some people imagine that there are some very mysterious things, contains absolutely nothing of this order, but only manuscripts of rather archeological interest. It is true that at one time there was a librarian so ignorant that he was destroying books that he thought were in too bad a condition; Who knows what may have vanished in this way?...
There's much much more just read the pastebin.

https://pastebin.com/YaFyUxSv

>>20457212
So all of these things happened to you in the half awakened/sleep state and not lucid dreaming state, correct?

>>20457229
A good excerpt:

>I see no traditional expression that can be literally conveyed by the “One Master”; At best, this could be taken as an approximate equivalent of some of the “Pole” designations; But I don't really understand what an allusion to Christ is doing here. In any case, it would be greatly needed to be clarified...
>The practice of the Orthodox ritual, as it is a connection to an exoteric tradition, is certainly much better than nothing at all; but where can it lead to this? If, on the other hand, it is assured that there is no more initiation in Christianity, there will always come a time when the question will arise of the connection with another traditional form which can provide the basis for an initiatory realization; and then will the links established or strengthened by the practice not be an obstacle?
>This may seem somewhat contradictory; perhaps we could see what is at bottom by asking whether there can be an initiation that does not relate to a given traditional form, or that reconciles with practices belonging to another form?
>Like you, I do not attach great importance to everything that is simply “phenomenal” (in reference to orthodox monks), such as the fact that we knew you were coming; this may be, depending on the case, communication of thought, mystical fact, etc., and proves absolutely nothing by itself; I completely agree with you on this.

>In summary, my impression is that if there is really still something in the strictly initiatory point of view (I hear something quite conscious), it is less among the ordinary monks that it should be sought than among the ascetics or the solitary; but then the problem is to have access to it in any way, and even the entry into the monasteries does not seem to be able to facilitate the solution very much (this subject to the various obscure points on which i have drawn your attention). In these circumstances, my view is that it would certainly not be beneficial to take a decision too hastily and that you might have to regret; the matter is certainly in need of further consideration and time;

>>20457242
>So much for the favorable side; however, if it is accepted that the formula (he is talking about the jesus prayer here) can be pronounced indifferently in any language and nevertheless produce the same effects, this is completely contrary to the very principle of mantras and seems to reduce it to the role of a mere religious invocation. Moreover, if the result obtained was really the possession of an initiatory state, it is quite obvious that, as you say, it would be acquired once and for all and could never be lost. The possibility of losing this result is rather reminiscent of mystical states, which are always something transitory and subject to fainting; there is, however, the difference that here at least there is a method that excludes passivity, which is certainly much better, even if we accept that it is only a question of obtaining a result of the same order and not going beyond the religious field. The role of the Master in the latter case could be reduced to being a guarantee against possible dangers; if, on the contrary, it is something truly initiatory, there must be a transmission of spiritual influence; this is still a dubious point and would need to be clarified more fully; What you have observed in this regard, unfortunately, does not seem to be very satisfactory... - Another boring thing is this insistence on humility; if it is only considered as a mere ‘purifying’ means, I am quite willing to see it have its value as such, like many other things, but, however, not uniformly for everyone, because it is necessary to take account of the differences in the nature of individuals; in any event, if that were the case, it could only play a role at the preliminary stages, and it would be inconceivable that it could influence the results already achieved. - It is also unusual that the question of qualification is not being considered; but are any of the monks admitted, or are there not some conditions, even physical ones, as there are for ordination? In this regard, I wonder (although the issue has only a very minor interest) whether there are many priest monks or whether they represent only a minority in the whole. - Finally, there is this Devil’s story which, if it is really taken so literally, is not a good sign either; from an initial point of view, it is clear that this cannot be of any interest;
And, if it were possible to hear it symbolically, it would still be an exaggeration to give it such importance... No doubt, one can admit that a very closed initiation is concealed under a religious phraseology, but then there must still be something that marks the possibility of transposing from one domain to another.

>>20457234
Correct

>>20457249
On copts:

>Mr. Clavelle told me that things are quite well arranged for the publication of your work, so we will probably be able to start it very soon. The subject is indeed very broad, and I see that you always find new confirmations; What you're telling me about the Novi Voyvode, as a function, and this tomb we've discovered, is still very interesting. - As for the Egyptian Church, I do not think it can be the Bohemians (of Indian origin, of whom I do not believe much); it must be what the current Copts are rather degenerate descendants and generally very ignorant. But what is curious is that the ancient Celtic or “Culdean” Church of Ireland also claimed to be attached, not to the Roman Church, but to the Egyptian Church... - Do not forget to tell me again what you envisage about the Holy Grail, with which the connection I have just indicated may also have some connection.

>P.S.: Have you ever heard of a Christian initiatory organization called the “Golden Cedar”, which I am told has its center in Lebanon?

>>20457268
Did he answer?

>>20457242
So essentisly according to guénon you should become an orthodox ascetic! Only then you will be on the level of some bourgeoisie freemason initiate, or cosmopolitan sufi.

Holy based...

>>20457229
And this highlights the problem in all honestly. He was only interested in it so far as he could detect any vague and exotic pseudo-mystical oriental practices. He had absolutely no interest in all in the orthodoxy of Orthodoxy, just like he had no actual interest in the orthodoxy of any religion so he never deeply engaged with it, which is the most colossal failure imaginable especially considering it’s well-known there were prominent Orthodox figures living in France at this time. I sincerely believe he was a charlatan.

>>20457284
It's over balkan trads... you have to join the neo-Ottoman as Muslims empire to get back in touch with your roots, and to save the West.

>>20457212
Damn, what kind of meditation were you doing? were you reading certain strange books?

>>20457294
TOP KEK

>>20457288
He was unironically extremely dismissive of orthodoxy, you should read metaphysics of the cross where he denigrates them as "schismatics" so he had no interest in it seems, he never went to athos to confirm these thing.

>>20456978
Exactly. This stuff is endorsed by Western academics and people with strong ties to Western academy plus New Agers. Ask why!

I’m not trying to suggest that because a certain type endorses an idea it invalidates the idea. I’m just saying at a certain point you start thinking “hm” and that’s what happened to me.

>>20457267
That’s wild!
Especially the blanket rising bit (and motherfucking Tiger sounds holy shit)

The drawer incident reminds me of this video I just watched
https://youtu.be/grcvbLGktuo

Some Sufi master “interviewed” a Jinn and it revealed a bunch of information to him. The Jinn said that they occupy people’s houses and various places within it.

Was the drawer dusty or anything?

>>20457303
And consider what a failure that was. This is a Westerner criticizing the West and writing about religion and Eastern religion, yet he failed to even rigorously engage with the orthodox and eastern method of his own tradition. It should have been the first and most obvious place to look, but again, this is a guy who was strongly influenced by occultic movements of this time and was looking to justify those.

>not beginning to practice and search for magical Western initiations (still existing in the West but very underground) which are totally superior to any Eastern cuckoldry

>>20457300
Why are you laughing I'm dead serious guénon said so shudra, don't you care about metaphysical principles, become a janissary for wajid al-wujud, and akbarian metaphysics, you won't just because you're not properly embodying the supra-individual transcendent point of view, degenerate!

>>20457093
Kinda reminds me of when I was like 8 or 9 years old and was reading a book about UFOs in my school library and one day went to a park in the evening near my house that had this circle of stones there. Not every big, they were meant for sitting on, but yeah a little stone circle lol, and I tried to beam a psychic transmission from my head into space to make aliens come to earth and reveal themselves. Sometime latter, maybe weeks or months, I saw some triangular UFO when lying on my trampoline in the backyard at nighttime. May have just fallen asleep and dreamed it, or been in that drowsy in-between state, its all murky having happened a long time ago as a child.
It reminds me though of something Frater mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago though, about how there is a trend through history of Occult groups coalescing around almost intuited sense of what an Occult organization should look like that pervades popular consciousness, I guess what land calls an Hyperstition, I think he was talking specifically about Witchcults but it reminded me anyway. I mean as a kid no one told me go find a circle and try to shoot lasers from your third eye, its kind of a cliche image, almost kitsch, but I had no frame of reference as a kid, it just seemed like the thing you would do if you wanted to contact aliens.

>>20457322
He had an anti-Western bias and was sometimes too caught up in pedantic labels instead of the pragmatic, on-the-ground reality. At the same time, this allowed him to be what he was. And to be fair, what does Eastern orthodoxy have beyond mysticism and a bunch of mutts holding together their parody of an empire? I guess if you are religious and want to go a little farther it's fine, otherwise go deep into esotericism and initiation.

>>20457327
Are you brown?

>>20456952
Define "orthodox", what will be your objective criteria to determine their orthodoxy ?
I know sufis from the Kacimiyya, Karkariyya, Qadiriyya, Shadiliyya and Tijaniyya that endorse him without any disclaimer, from Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia and France. And that guy from al azhar that was bff with Guénon too. What do you want exactly, names or something ? I doubt you would know any, like Slimane Rezki or Faouzi Skali. At best you will do a five minute search, decide you don't like them and claim they're not orthodox despite the fact that some of them met the living Sheikh or their Tariqa like the one of the Qadiriyya-Butchitchiyya.

And as for you, who is the living master that taught you Ibn Arabi and made sure you understood him well ? Who gave you the authority to decide what complies with Ibn Arabi or not ? Surely it is not yourself ?

>>20457322
Guénon didn't like the Greeks pretty evidently, and the modern greek tradition was orthodoxy, it's language - greek, which denies as a possible sacred language but in the correspondences he affirms because of its gematria qualities, coomaraswamy did an article on this called heremeneia = nirukta, even the name of jesus in greek has its own gematria as it has the numerical value by no coincidence 888, which has meaning, not only this byzantine occultism os something totally overlooked by the West, and something extremely underdeveloped in terms of its study. Its a missing link in my opinion, but it seems no trad has touched this, even historically do we see any trad going over byzantine history, or byzantine initiatic societies, strangely it's in-between East and West and is the bridge between, in fact.

>>20457332
There's the leader of a Knights Templar group claiming aliens races are entities that initiates in royal families have known about for a long time.

>>20456933
He is unironically doing what protestants do with the free examination doctrine lol

>>20457387
So I would say it seems like the first place they should look, and it is not like there is an absence of what information on the subject either, all I'm saying its very strange that it hasn't been subjected to more inquiry.

>>20457384
>Slimane Rezki
based

>>20457297
As far as practices I was all over the place. I went to a local Buddhist temple where we practiced zazen and I tried to replicate it at home. I also practiced visualization techniques from so many books I can’t even remember them. With regards to readings, everything from manly hall to Blavatsky, Steiner, Guenon (sorry to include him in a list of “new age” authors but like I said I was all over the place) to chaos magick and astrology.
>>20457318
Woah, I’m gonna have to watch this. I’m not sure about the drawer being dirty, it was old and the clothes were old. It was my old room and nobody was using it for a while. The hallucinations were crazy real, indistinguishable from reality until you snap out of it (I’m not schizophrenic btw).

>>20456933
>NOT read Ibn Arabi because his wrintings are too difficult to understand for the murid
because muslims are more stupid on average

>>20457384
I realize that I may have answered to the wrong anon, so disregard the point about Ibn Arabi if not relevant

>>20457332
Interesting story, thanks for sharing
>>20457416
>Woah, I’m gonna have to watch this
It’s pretty good desu
Audio quality is shit, guy talking has an accent, but nevertheless it is packed with good info

>>20457407
To be entirely honest I have heard that he was maybe too close to the wrong kind of academicians (the ones that Guénon typically disliked, the arrogant and close-minded kind), but other than that nothing indicates that he is heterodox at least

>>20457349
That's fine, if the West would rather become Islamic than Orthodox which has evidently preserved some type of residues of initiation arguably non-degenerate, but the thing I've noticed is where does this leave the Balkans who say have no interest in becoming Muslim, and certainly no interest in becoming Catholic?
In my opinion we see a similar thing to the time where the West essentialy collaborated with the caliphates, before ever trying to settle things with the east, this history is in the past now, but I can't help but see it similarly.

>>20457349
It’s all besides the point. Step back and take a super-high-level look at what you’re doing and you see clearly that not engaging deeply with that religion was the most colossal failure you could have possibly had. He had to have known that so you have to ask yourself why and the only answer you can come up with is bias. In my opinion, Guenon’s entire corpus is apologetic for essentially the same sort of pseudo-religion occultism that was floating around elsewhere at that time and that’s why he was very deliberate in engaging some things and not others. Thoroughness and accuracy would have shown the emperor has no clothes.

>>20457387
It’s really besides the point here whether or not they’re doing that.

>>20457318
There’s a fucking shot of Sailor Moon in the video.

This is all a big hyper-reality joke.

>>20454908
Meant to reply earlier about this but forgot
>Antichrist being born around the Internet age, by end of 20th century
Malachi Martin said something similar during one of his Art Bell interviews. It was around 1995-97 or so when he said that the Antichrist is likely already alive

(Which means the Antichrist is NOT a zoomer kek)

Guenonfags be like "no don't listen to mainstream secular or religious academics or antiSufist Muslim academics or academic esotericists, listen to OUR academic who literally lectured at the Sorbonne"
Your man is not a priest or a prince, he was an opium smoking pencilneck and a proto hippie

>>20457468
Zoomers include 95-97

>>20457457
Desu

>>20457447
Well I am talking about purely contingent things here, not of an initiatory order or as a matter of spirituality, personally the exoteric religous form of a people does not bother me, I don't think the religions of Europe will persist in the decrepit state forever, so yeah I'm wasting my time speculating on what may come of that final degeneration, I am not really interested in the subjects anyway, but they are things which are around in the world regardless.

>>20457476
zoomie antichrist


Anyways, someone should bake a new thread

>>20457443
I don't know him that well honestly, I just listened to a lecture of his and thought it was funny this white dude was giving a lecture to a bunch of muslims on Islam.

>>20457447
You make some good points, it certainly was a mistake to overlook it. He also does seem to retain some vestiges of his early occultist days, I've read other authors mention this. King of the World is based on some questionable material, although there could be more to it than it seems.

>>20457471
based profane seething retard getting so worked up over Guenon (pbuh)

>>20457444
Islam isn't really any better, I have contempt for all the Abrahamic religions. There will be a spirtual awakening at some point. I have no idea how though. Probably a reformed Christianity with the help of underground esoteric groups or something. We have a chance to be at the forefront, it is a crazy time to be alive. Mass depopulation is on its way, along with cataclysms, fake global spiritual events, real global spiritual events, everything.

>>20457493
It couldn’t have been a mistake though. It had to be deliberate. That’s my whole point.

>>20457471
Honestly I see "academic" Dr. pHd, Lecturer, and "trad" as two things which are totally incompatible, when I read guénon when I thought trad I pictured some enlightened monk or aghori, or high-level camoflagued initiate, or some mountain sage essentialy, not these larpers in business suits giving doctrinal overviews, I see that purely intellectual exposition as something unsacred, and profane, and pretty much all the Moderns who call themselves trad are of that type, people like Nasr, and so on.

This is what lead me to a sort of disillusionment, guénon was just a typical 20th century Frenchman esotericist, living in cities, and writing literature, lecturing, and so on.

>>20457332
Yeah specifically about how Satanism and witchcraft as concepts get so much power in the imagination and often get superstitions about what they are doing, which makes imitators arise, whether or not they have connections to groups real or fictional that the myth was based on, and with Satanism and witchcraft this is very ancient, people always talk about the Christian European hunting of witches but never how the ancients also hunted, hated and fetishized them. Even among the ancients such copy-cat groups arose. IMO the most ancient root of these other than particular cults, is probably a tendency you can still see today. Crazy people or more accurately, the demon possessed, will universally in all cultures rush to graveyards/cemeteries and will linger around and in them, even in New York when I’ve spent time meditating in various cemeteries you will find many obsessed/demon possessed come and wander the graveyards, mostly doing nothing, sometimes just wailing nonsense. The ancients also universally recorded this phenomenon.

But yeah I do believe there’s a lot to be said about the “muse “ effect, where fiction accidentally encapsulates and expands on truth, and I do believe sometimes there’s intuitions in us, either from some cultural memory or simply forgotten data we’ve absorbed, which gives us information on topic that we normally would have difficulty explaining how we know about such.

It is good to keep your skepticism about you anon, I’ve always liked the grantian take on ufos, that they’re just humans experiencing spiritual phenomenon and clothing it with the aesthetics and mythology of this day and age, with the language and symbol of vehicle, machine, artificial light and so forth, but the experience is fundamentally one occurring in the experience/perception of the individual.

>>20457523
>Honestly I see "academic" Dr. pHd, Lecturer, and "trad" as two things which are totally incompatible
Evola likes to repeat the quote that goes something like:
>there are two types of men in this world: the Nobility and those with Degrees

>>20457492
>>20457523
>>20457537
Will the Antichrist be a counter-initiation zoomer academic?

>>20457556
A TikToker

>>20457565
Personally I think it will be a Vtuber

>>20457318
Woah he says don’t leave any rooms abandoned for long, because the devils will occupy that room! It was in my old room that I saw the shadow being! Nobody had been using it until I came back and slept inside! OMG! Here are two sources — Upton and a Muslim dude — independently corroborating and explaining my experiences. That’s crazy.

>>20457556
The antichrist will be generation x taken as a collective. Z is the last letter of the alphabet, signifying that there will be no generations after this one.

>>20457578
The Antichrist is a zoomer who chases online clout above everything else and perverts everything in the process.
The Antichrist will become the greatest master of PSYOPs by combining psychic magic + the Internet and will be able to penetrate the psyche of tens/hundreds of millions of people.
The Antichrist will one day call on his e-Army to uproot and overthrow all existing structures to claim for himself the title of God-Emperor.

And so Armageddon will kick of

Very plausible… no?
One single TikTok dance by the Antichrist will have the power to kill millions.

>>20457617
What do you think about pic. Related? For some reason it feels real

>>20457646
>For some reason it feels real
Because You and the image op are off your meds

>>20457617
>Zoomzoom Antichrist completely falsifies reality based on “Likes”
You maybe onto something…

>>20457102
This is all real, and very related to many other aspects of initiation e.g if you were to be initiated into a tantra in Tibet say, the same thing can happen, essentialy when you get into these states you can see the "mandala" or the guru actually become the deity, as part of the shamanic traditions there they also ingest plant drugs, which is tantrically acceptable because they're "nondual" and can realise it, and essentialy they travel to different worlds, via this way, or open themselves up to it, since there has to he a complicit guru in the initiation, who is practicing the yoga of "generation" (generating himself as the deity) you can then see his "generation" potentially, if you were to say reach a very high level of initiation, and you walked out in public, if you would be able to detect another "initiate" as you will them generating themlves as the deity, so I would say these are "entities" in "subtler realities" interpenetrating this one, although this is more of a "psychic phenomena" and not necesserily concerned with the ultimate aim of "spirituality"

>>20457646
Ok I’m about to hit the road so will briefly comment
>Rapture
Upton or Guenon (I cannot remember) said that a lot of the Rapture talk is Protestant bullshit and should be ignored
>Vaccines
Is there any doubt the counter-initiation is at the very core of this roll out? As anon said here >>20456583, vaccines are cringe and gay.
>Satellites/5G
It is widely known that 5G cell towers can alter shit inside your brain and can even send “voiced messages” to targets.
The schizos are right about everything regarding this stuff. I’m sure the counter-initiation can fuck with a target via their home wifi to a degree.
God knows what they can do via an iPhone…

That said, being aware of this stuff can lead to legit schizophrenia if you aren’t grounded in God. Best tread softly anon!

>>20457685
What I meant is the UFOs may be interpenetrating, but you yourself through various "psychic" practices, can also interpenetrate, some people force it through the ingestion of psychedelics, but the initiate technically becomes "psychadelic" but is in total control, eventually if you become powerful enough you can hijack ufos, and become immaterial, but it's dangerous.

Kek

JewFOs more like

>>20457685
That is baller
So what deity did your Tibetan guru manifest as…?
>>20457722
>eventually if you become powerful enough you can hijack ufos, and become immaterial, but it's dangerous.
Someone make a Guenon Pepe in a UFO edit

>>20457745

>>20457387
Because Guenontards just like exoticism and Orthodox Christianity is too similar to Western Christianity for their liking.

>>20443008
John 14:6
“Trads”(proto hippies) just conveniently ignore this.

>>20458227
>I am the hib, the Jew and the kike