/lit/ - Literature

>>20453921
Such a good book. Might be my favorite since it didn't go out to try force prosperity. Solomon comes off as depressed and he didn't sugarcoat the nature of this world.
>Ecclesiastes 12
Forever will remember that verse.

>>20453928
>go out to try force prosperity.
*to try and convince you to think in terms of prosperity.

Since when are people from the middle east western

>>20453921
Reminder that this is doctored

>>20453969
Do you have proof that doesn't come from the Babylonian Talmud?
>>20453936
China - Zhongguo - is the centre of the world - anything west of that is the West.

>>20453921
It's some old Jew carping that 'ya can't take it with ya'. Amos is what Ecclesiastes is supposed to be.

>no archaeological evidence found of Solomon's temple
>no evidence of his 700 wives
>no evidence the guy even existed
JUST

>>20454475
>No evidence for you not being a bot that will deny this accusation.

>>20453921
Ligotti goes on and on about brilliant works of pessimism that fuck-over the reader with an optimistic ass-pull at the end. I can think of no better example than Ecclesiastes.

Ironically, True Detective, based on Ligotti's own philosophy, did exactly this.

>strong pessimistic arguments
>"but I think the light is winning!"

>>20455054
Pessimism makes no sense. God exists and that refutes all pessimistic philosophy. Grow up

>>20455054
Ecclesiastes ends with "fear God and keep his commandments, for God will bring every deed into judgment". That's not exactly optimistic

>>20454475
>he thinks that they would let something as important as that be known to the general public if it were ever unearthed
alright, fess up, which of the 72 are you

>>20455212
Awful convenient and full proof way to defend your opinion/beliefs

>>20455158
Great, another baseless argument for the existence of God on /lit/!

They really do get more convincing every time, keep it up guys.

>>20455054
The end verse is:

>13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
>14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

How is this positive? Are you confused or something?

Comparing this to the fucking garbage finally of the hot pile of dogshit that was True Detective is beyond dumb. You should be ashamed.

I would stab my eyes out with forks right now, just to not read your post again. Good thing I'm comfy in bed and my hands are covered with palm oil.

Maybe I'll just bash my head against the wall to erase the memory of ever reading your post. I'll slam my head while saying "Forget, forget, leave, leave".

That's how your post made me feel. I hope you're happy.

>>20455328
How is it not positive? It's telling you that should after all do good because God will judge you. God's judgement is the promise of a reward.

>>20454475
I remember when you and your type spent centuries saying King David didn't exist, and then the moment evidence was discovered in the 1990s, the entire field of archeology was turned upside down and your centuries of skeptical writings went from the prevailing view to the dustbin, instantly.

>>20455212
This

>>20455392
These still is zero evidence.
Just because a bunch of people thought they were descended from a mythological figure and called their lineage the House of David doesn't mean that David actually existed.

>>20454489
>>20455212
>>20455392
Are you guys literally retarded?
Vanity of vanities, remember. That none of Solomon's material possessions survive despite their grandeur is to the point of the book.

>>20453921
Western philosophy was always shit.

>>20455186
Yes, but it is an ass-pull.

>>20455328
Its pretends someone is behind the wheel, while no one is behind the wheel.

>>20455328
The end verse is super out of place imo, like how is that the conclusion

>>20455158
There is no god. Wake the fuck up.

>>20457940
Well, I'm convinced.

>>20455054
The whole irony of True Detective is that a truly senseless world that conforms to Rust's worldview would be easier to live in.
He criticizes the church-goers for using ideology to ease the burden of their situations, despite using nihilism as a way to ameliorate any feelings caused by his daughter's death.
The revelation at the end that Carcosa isn't just the result of chaos that happens to affect people, but rather an active force that deliberately causes suffering, is a more harrowing situation in all aspects.

>>20458306
Rust identifies as a pessimist, in his own words.

>>20455054
The ending of true detective is actually good though. If you were agreeing with rust throughout the show you have a very immature understanding of reality. He was just using nihilism to cope with his daughter's death

>>20458815
Pessimism, not nihilism. And no, it was an historical asspull.

>>20453928
>Ecclesiastes 12
Entire thing is completely detached from the final conclusion. It's like someone found a very nice passage but then cut the last part and replaced it with his own shitty take.

Specifically:

>Now all has been heard;
> here is the conclusion of the matter:
>Fear God and keep his commandments,
> for this is the duty of all mankind.
>14 For God will bring every deed into >judgment,
> including every hidden thing,
> whether it is good or evil.

The ending is from a different author.

>>20459045
Ecclesiastes 12: "Shut it down. The goyim know!"

>>20455186
It is 100% optimistic if you lead a righteous life, retard.

>>20459045
This sounds like pure cope.

>>20459729
People who lead righteous lives don’t call other people retards

>>20459766
On the contrary, I've found the religious to be the most crass and vile individuals.

>>20459926
>uconsciously associates "righteous" with "religious" and fucks up his post
that should really tell you something

Solomon's books have always been the only parts of the Bible I could really understand

>>20459045
The message is simply: life on this earth is vain, so the only important thing is to respect God, avoid evil, and do what He asks.

>>20460713
How do you know what is evil and what God asks?

>>20455158
Ligotti should be murdered, but he'd like that, so its no use.

>>20460748
>me no like thing
>thing should be smashed!
No wonder pessimists have a low opinion of humanity.

>>20460810
that's cool, an hero anytime now. objective morality exists, deal with it.

>western
It’s jewish bro

>>20460736
by heart and mind

>>20458306
>>20458815
stop conflating pessimism and nihilism and go back while you're at it

>>20453921
I definitely turn more atheistic when my blood sugar is low

It is.

>>20459766
Matriarchal pussy instinct here that will drag us to the stone age. The word retard started out as a medical term. So did moron. Retards and morons degraded the word into its delicate considerations that themselves became retarded euphemistic plea deals. Is that iron sharpening iron? When the Anglos got their Bible they got aggressive passages in describing fools. The Spanish got watered down passages describing the insane and wrong but not fools. Physicians used aggressive license in tribally secure freedom to assert tribal dominance before they became bureaucracy drones providing "medicine". The righteous life is one of absolute discriminating discipline and hierarchical realization. The heinous life is one of egalitarian democracy where we are all equally worthless blind and clueless. The KJV Bible full of raucous reference to fools and foolishness. The holy men of the East are revered as astute among the witless. Loving learning and knowing who is too mentally torpid or weak to be shared learning with.
The Mary Worshipping monkey men of all Latin America never made more GDP than Canada and the US. That tells you how backward this feminized stupidity is. Stop soothing your difficulty.

>>20454429
Profoundly retarded take. Good job on spewing actual garbage.
>>20459045
This is what an atheist coping with the fact that they like something in the Bible sounds like. No, Ecclesiastes isn't just a quote mine for nihilistic faggots like you--it has a spiritual conclusion (hence why it's the fucking Holy Bible you absolute twit).

>>20462566
>it has a spiritual conclusion
Which is?

>>20455054
filtered

>>20454475
>Solomon
Probably existed as it seems David was not purely fictional, so it makes most sense that his direct ruling progeny would also have historical basis.
>Temple
Highly likely to have existed, just not in the grandeur or dimensions described. The notion that no centralised place of worship and sacrifice existed for ancient YHWH worship would be highly dubious.
>700 wives
Obviously hyperbole, and nobody other than peabrained religious literalists would say otherwise. He probably had lots of wives and concubines but that's not surprising.

>>20454295
>Ecclesiastes
>Do you have proof that doesn't come from the Babylonian Talmud?

what

>>20459045
Retard. It's about everything being vanity without God, drinking, eating and labouring are good but in the scheme of eternity it means nothing.

>>20453921
One of my favorites.
>I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.

>while I was still searching but not finding— I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all.

>>20464630
same vibe
>Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

>>20464531
Protestant 'Canon' = Rabbinical 'Judaist' Canon

Love this book. Do you really think Solomon wrote this book bros? It would really make sense if he did; at the very least he was the inspiration for it.

I believe in my heart of hearts Ecclesiastes was meant to be the philosophy to end all philosophies, and it succeeded.

>>20453928
>>20453934
>>20454489
>>20455158
>>20455186
>>20455212
>>20455390
>>20455392
>>20455484
>>20458196
>>20458306
>>20458815
>>20459729
>>20459755
>>20460296
>>20460713
>>20460748
>>20460846
>>20461982
>>20462213
>>20462566
>>20464581
>>20464630
>>20464667
>>20465225
>>20465328
god is literally not real

>>20463669
Why is 700 outrageous? Abumbi II Had 100, I don’t see why him having ten times that is so outrageous.

>>20465357
>he doesn't know

>>20465357
If you have to say that, then he is real.
t. Pre-Socratics

>>20456636

>>20465587
Positive relative to what?

>>20465604
0

>>20465587

>>20465832
Why is the toilet talking?

>>20465587
The problem is deciding which of them is the God. Allah is the all-powerful possessor of all positive qualities, so is it the Muslim God, the Christian God, the Talmudic God? The Vedic Brahman? The Platonic One?
Atheism in the West is a reaction against the demanding and transcendent God, but there are other types too.
The Ontological argument kinda proves the philosopher's God, but not much of how to relate with it.

>>20465832
Read Heraclitus and Parmenides. Always start with the Greeks.

>>20466207
No, the Greeks were refuted.

>>20458548
>>20460863
I bet you two scream "omg he's literally me" every time you see Rust appear on screen.

>>20459045
He reiterates that point several times. Actually read the thing you're talking about. End of chapter 2. Near the end of chapter 3. Chapter 5 as a whole. First half of chapter 8. Middle of Chapter 9. The first half of Chapter 12 even.

>>20465357
ok

>thread about Ecclesiastes
>so many possible themes and topics to discuss
>atheist smooth brains instead can only prattle on about whether God exists or not
Its like they have a mind parasite that prevents them from actually using faculties of intelligence.

>>20455390
I can see how you would interpret it this way.

However, we have to consider:

>1) Sira really believes everything material, everything of this world is vanity, fleeting in the wind.
> 2) Therefore, any gift that God could bestow ( like a lot of kids, a powerful legacy, a strong son ), would in the end be fleeting.

Considering these things, the closing passage is less of a "But, hey, there's always the promise that Yaweh delivers" and more of a "There's nothing better to do, so just obey God's law".

Ben Sira genuinely does not believe that anything Yahweh could offer would make existence worthwhile. This can be gained from reading previous passages.

He does not believe in any hope. He just believes in better uses of time, which would be obeying God's law.

This is also reflected in these passages.

> Light is sweet,
> and it pleases the eyes to see the sun.
> However many years anyone may live,
> let them enjoy them all.
> But let them remember the days of darkness,
> for there will be many.
> Everything to come is meaningless.

and

> That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God.
>I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

>>20457910
When you write "it" do you mean "True Detective"?

Yeah that show sucked. God damn, what a waste.

>>20457918
I answered this above, but it's essentially just saying "Sometimes the best answer in life is a shrug"

>>20470026
What if we consider God's reward not a reward in this world but in the afterlife. Can you really ignore things like Heaven and Hell in scripture? I don't think so. God's judgement comes at the end of things so it's only logical that the reward is not an earthly one.

After reading parts of the New Testament (Corinthians, Mathew, John, epistle of John, and yes Ecclesiastes) I became muslim because of the Noble Quran

It makes believing in the 1 God so much easier and the worship is so straightforward and fulfilling. Alhamdulilah!

quran.com and bible.com are fine sites if you want to compare the two!

>>20468770
THE QURAN LITERALLY SAYS THIS A BILLION TIMES SUBHANALLAH

>>20470570
Ben Sira is not a Christian and does not believe in Heaven or Hell.

He believes in Sheol, which is a dark place to which the dead go. It's basically nothingness.

Wiki - Sheol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

In Judaism, the best reward you could get after dying was a promise or progeny or legacy. This is the promise to Abraham in Genesis, "I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed".

Anyway, Jews don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so the writer at the time certainly did not intend this.

It's really, really, really just meant as:

> "Well, nothing better to do, so might as well avoid the wrath of God, enjoy life, and become wise. But ultimately it is meaningless"

>>20453921
Dumbo. No one ever wrote anything of worth on a good day. Bad days bring forth inspiration due to contemplation and reflection. You turn bad days into better days because you wrote something lasting.

Before you judge western philosophy, look at their fruits first. I certainly don't want any ching chong shitskin philosophy beliefs culture to rubb off of us and leaves any kind of stain. I think you guys are doing good.

>>20465890
>The Ontological argument kinda proves the philosopher's God, but not much of how to relate with it.

That is the point of the argument, lmao

The classical approach to apologetics was always in 3 steps:

-Prove God through philosophy

- Prove Christianity through historical argument for the resurrection of Christ and the explosion of the early church.

- Prove Catholicism through church history and theology.

>>20473600
Part 2: Resurrection

>>20473600
>>20473610
Part 3: Catholic church

>>20473616
Good thing I worship God and not history. Imagine thinking that almost 300 years after Christ that it turned out Paul had warned daily with tears his prediction of inevitable church corruption and hijacking for nothing. Call no man "Father". Pray only to God.

>>20453936
Since the start?

>>20474867
Yeah, the disciples of the apostles got it wrong - directly from the apostles, they people who saw the resurrected Christ got it wrong from the beginning, and only after 1500 years, the people finally got it right?

Right?

>>20465832
Did this guy really just try use the ontological argument but reversed?

>>20465357
define real

>>20454475
>no archeological evidence of the existence of Isaac Newton
It's over sciensisters.

>>20465604
Ontologically positive, not positive as in "good".

>>20465357
That's just like, your opinion, man.

Who claims this to be the pinnacle of western philosophy? What other thinkers say this?

>>20465357
Define literally

>>20455158
God existing refutes optimism, since most people are going to Hell

>>20480974
Supposing that, it would be fine, most people also deserve Hell

>>20480975
That only reinforces Pessimism.

>>20480980
In what way?

>>20480987
Life (including the afterlife) has negative value for the vast majority people because they are unable or unwilling to respond to God's love/call properly, and rightly suffer eternal torment for it.

>>20470794
To me it's more saying that one should embody the purpose of man, which is to serve God and keeps his commandments, as ultimately this is the only thing that is not vain in the world.

>>20481038
Here's my question to you:
Do you think the people in Hell regret?

>>20480996
but I don't care about the perceived value or anything like that, the causality is ironclad.
it can only be good for bad people to lead negative-value lives. It is even better if they cannot help themselves otherwise, and better still if they bring more bad people into the same situation.

>>20481038
I don't know if you are >>20470570.

If you are, that's really different than what you wrote previously. Regardless, it's a good argument and made me think.

I still do wonder - Can man have a purpose if everything is meaningless?

I also do not know enough about the Jewish idea of "judgement", which I'm now realizing limits my ability to critically interpret this work.


>>20481042
I am not>>20481038, but I first want to ask - How is this question related to the discussion?

And also, if there was something like Hell, I'm not quite sure. A lot of people would no doubt take the stance of "Oh yeah, just my luck" or "Well, it was rigged against me from the start". Others would regret their actions and repent.

But why do you ask this?