/lit/ - Literature

>>20447005
blatch

>>20447005
Who the fuck wants to read Medieval C-Span?

>>20447005
Great bait thread really. GRRM is far too modern, really.

>>20447005
THE MORE SHE

>>20447005
The point is that in our modern world, the only period in history where we obsessively worry about a thousand fundamentally random factors (how is a dude in a suit deciding how much you are going to pay when your business is already struggling to survive different than a lightning maybe or maybe not hitting you in a stormy night?), nothing will ever do. We enjoy luxuries even kings dreamt of only a couple of centuries ago, together with widespread unprecedented wealth. Righteous, truly human societies, one where people don't constantly lower themselves to the state of beasts, will rejoice and be happy even when many things go wrong and not every project works out well, insofar as their noble king reigns in the serenity of the throne.

>>20447005
>that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper.
WTf but that is true. what is he even talking about

>>20447005
I have enough reality in the real world. People like him that do not tolerate beauty and ideals bother me extremely. Not everything is about plot-twists and the evil ones winning (again). Reading about rape, murder for hobby, incest....all gross topics that we have more than enough in our own absolutely imperfect world.

>>20447005
Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

>>20447005
Most of the questions he posed here are close to irrelevant in highly autarkic medieval societies.
>Tax? Regulated by old decrees and basically accorded between the king and his vassals. The king will only collect direct taxes from a small part of the peasantry who works on his personal lands. Tax "policy"? Preposterous to ask of this from a medieval polity. Policy is a modern institution.
>Standing army? Ridiculous question. Standing armies are also modern institution dependent on the centralization of the state.
>Flood and famine? You hang on through it. If you have reserves, you use them. But again, highly autarkic communities.
>the orcs. Come on
Does Martin actually know anything about the middle ages? Also, the "good king" is effectively a medieval creation and was a standard through which princes were judged in their times.

>>20448020
>>the orcs. Come on
well? what about the orcs??

>>20447872
>But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness.
There's no reason to think this is the case.

>>20447005
I've yet to see someone refute him on this.

>>20447350
Yes I got a smart phone and running water but to be honest I gotta live with my parents or pay half of my wage to a landlord that wants to throw me out every summer season because he wants to rent to airbnb tourists and i have to work a soul crushing service job 12 hour a day x 6 days a week just to maintain a lifestyle with zero security or long term stability, with an insane rate of changes in economy and technology that further threaten to make me or my job obsolete at any point in time. Marriage and families are also ruined and communities replaced with hyper-individualization and constant competition to the point that nobody thinks of anything at any time except their position in capitalist social hierarchy for fear of being left behind and reduced to homeless beggars. To maintain this pace and lifestyle people overload on shit food, media and porn, pills and drugs and alcohol and have completely fried dopamine receptors. But yeah I can write this on my smart phone, incidentally while it is getting blown up by work notifications.

Is this the hack fraud general?

>>20448309
I feel real bad for the pseud who made this.

>>20447702
Colossally based.

>>20448309
You need to get a life.

>>20447005
>>20448224
He don´t have a point because he cannot differentiate between history and myth.
The lord of the rings is a mythical work, not a historical one.

I hate that gay little turtle crest on his hat

>>20448309
Number 5 is hilarious and I immediately thought of Martin himself when I read it.

>>20447005
Is this guy retarded or just trying to be edgy by criticizing the godfather of fantasy? LoTR wasn't about Aragorn's reign. It was about the fellowship.

>>20447872
Incredibly based and correct take.

>>20447005
>Shitting is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, his shits would be solid. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and had regular bowel movements, and he was clean with one square. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s fiber intake? Did he maintain a proper balence of soluble and insoluble fiber? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains with no toilet paper. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and potty train them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc diapers?

>>20447005
this guy never played a paradox game
then he would know how easy and mundane these things are

Some anon recommended the reading of the comments in his twitter account. I just want to say thank you anon, that shit is hilarious

>>20449611

>>20447005
>pee pee poo poo dinkies and vagenes for forty paragraphs: The Author

>>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very ...

Shut the fuck up pervert, your opinion does NOT matter.

>>20447005
Orcs don't have females or infants; they don't reproduce They are a MADE thing. Dumbass.

>>20449611
KEK

>>20447872
Lol Tolkien is a glorified childrens writer idolised by people who can’t grow up

>>20447872
> For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world
Holy shit take his dick out of your mouth

>Be GRRM
>Be a total shameless gargantual Tolkien shill since birth
>"Hmmm, how can I make people appreciate Tolkien?"
>"Should I explain the sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world?"
>"Nah, it would never work, others tried and they were simply ignored"
>"Now how about this..."

>"Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?"

>enter legions of contrarians who now praise Tolkien to high heaves and beyond, even when they never read him
>just according to keikaku
Absolute genius-tier Tolkienshill.

>>20447005
WHAT WAS QUEEN MARIKA'S TAX POLICY YOU SHILLELAGH BASTARD

Wow very original thread OP

He wrote a bunch of pedophilia incest soap opera that made it to television. The tv people raised a child then had her take her clothes off on camera.

Contrast that to Tolkien... really...?

>>20447090
what does that mean sorry i dont do literature

>>20447702
the solution to this is unironically labelling, and yes on the goddamn cover, every book if it's escapist or not, and also a whole bunch of other labels to solve some other problems. like labels based on depictions of sexuality and gender relationships, if featured at all. the current "genre system" simply isn't enough. it's not comprehensive enough and it doesn't shine enough.

>>20448255
I don't even feel sorry for you, like I wouldn't feel sorry for a rock.

What was radagons tax policy?
What was morgots tax policy? Where are elden rings taxes

>>20448255
>with an insane rate of changes in economy and technology that further threaten to make me or my job obsolete at any point in time
Have you perhaps considered that "having a job" is ALREADY obsolete and that you should stop considering job to equal security? You know what's not going to be obsolete any time soon? Plumbing. Electrical. Get a skill. Stop whining that your life isn't like what was on tv a decade and a half ago.

>>20447005
I get where he's coming from, it's not that Tolkien was bad and that Aragorn has to be deconstructed. It's what GRRM wondered about and then decided to make a fantasy series that explores some of the drama, pathos, quandaries, and intrigue of such fantasy political decisions and conflicts.

>>20447701
>wtf it's true if there is a king who's a good man of course the land will prosper
This is not always the case historically. Octavius is considered by many to be a son of a bitch, but he's also considered one of the greatest and most successful of leaders in history. There are kings who can be regarded as nice and good people privately who were bad war leaders, bad at politics, and weak. There are good men who are good leaders who refuse to bend to powerful foreign force and they and their people pay a high price for that. There are good men who show too much mercy and kindness to enemies and let people undermine them and the kingdom. There are good men who mean well but they become fanatics or make hard brutal decisions when times get tough. Then there are good men who overcome difficulties and are good rulers, and how that works is more interesting when good does not automatically make everything go well, makes the land prosper and all that.

>>20452962
>muh trades
Top zozzle, post knees radio now

>>20447350
>We enjoy luxuries even kings dreamt of
Nigga you can't even afford real food
What 'luxuries" lmao?

>>20453126
You're an ungrateful piece of shit. Utter trash.

>>20453068
I'm not the whining poorfag. I have nothing to prove.

>>20448020
>the "good king" is effectively a medieval creation
Huh?? Greeks were well aware of tyranny.....

>>20448255
Keep whining. Lets see where it takes you.

>>20448020
Retard. It’s obvious Martin is not using tax policy in the way you’re straw-manning him as using it. Standing armies also were definitely a thing. Maybe read a book for once.

>>20453455
99% of posts about history on this site are Dunning-Krueger in action.

>Georgie boy: Allow me to outline in minute detail how the delicate political underpinnings of this fictional society are made to unravel, not by deus ex machina, but by the combined choices of many small characters culminating on a genre-defining fantasy odyssey
>Tolkien: Uh, magic did it, praise Eru, also industry BAD

George surpasses Tolkien. Search your heart, you know it to be true.

Reminder Shouzou Kaga did the whole “medieval Europe inspired political epic with backstabbing and magic” better than GRRM did with like 1/1000th of the text.
Jugdralchads get the fuck in here.

>>20447005
Shut your cunt mouth, fatso. You're like three of me combined. No one reads The Lord of the Rings for Aragorn's tax policy, you absolute muppet. Tolkien addressed the points brought forth by this hog in human's clothing before he spawned anyway and stated it's not worth doing.

>>20447005
Tolkien
>sets out to create his own mythological tale inspired by the norse and Christianity
>succeeds
GRRM
>sets out to "answer" Tolkien by writing low-quality, modernistic garbage that completely misses the point of the thing it tries to "deconstruct"
>can't even finish the book series and the TV show jumped the shark so bad everyone forgot about it

>>20447005
>Under the good not King Ned Stark, the Norf was peaceful and prosperous
>Then he dies and it goes to shit
Doesn’t this self refute him? Also he never details any tax policies.

>>20453512
Based Kagaposter

>>20447005
The weird thing about this is that Tolkein has a ton of flawed rulers. The Silmarillion is nothing but an endless cascade of them. Even the good ones fuck up and their realms are destroyed due to their poor decisions.

>>20447005
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper
Despite being a reactionary, Tolkien's morality was unquestionably a product of the Enlightenment. Medieval notions of good kingship were absolutely different. Nobody at the time wanted a nice chap, they wanted a strong king who could uphold the law and keep his subjects safe by any means necessary. This is why a rather cruel figure like Henry V was so widely praised in England and France alike; nobody wanted some complete pushover—like his successor—on the throne.

But Martin has already said he doesn't care much about history outside of a few bloody parts anyway. A heavy contrast with Tolkien who spends the opening of Fellowship simply romanticizing country bumpkins who do absolutely nothing with their lives.

>>20453684
In Tolkien's world it is made abundantly clear that the world is a very grim place where anyone can fall from glory. In fact, if anything, it's probably a much darker place than Martin's world. Despite this, there is something uniquely hallowed about his world. The gods are good (if capable of error) and most of the elves and the higher races/castes of men also tend to be wiser and more just than men of our age most of the time, and this is just too much for the morally grey grimdark crowd. To men like Martin, virtue must always be punished, and chivalry portrayed as a complete joke. Anything less than wholesale nihilism is to be condemned.

It's not something any atheist or materialist could ever understand, but theism and atheism are the principal reason as to why Tolkien's and Martin's worlds are so different.

>>20453492
>Standing armies also were definitely a thing.
>The first Christian standing army since the fall of the Western Roman Empire to be paid with regular wages, instead of feudal levies, was established under King Charles VII of France in the 1430s while the Hundred Years' War was still raging.
Not in the time of Charlemagne or in the days of the Crusaders. LoTR is most heavily inspired by epics from the early Middle Ages (Beowulf, the Eddas), a time period in which there were no standing armies in times of peace in Europe.

>>20447005
He has a point, but I don't see how George thinks a song of Ice and fire goes much deeper into medieval history and realism than Tolkien.

>>20447005
Men call me Darkstar... and I am of the night

>>20453684
All the leaders in LOTR are flawed, including the Kings

>>20453492
>It’s obvious Martin is not using tax policy in the way you’re straw-manning him as using it.

Then how is he using it? Martin raises public policy questions that would seem *not* to turn on whether the king was a good man, or not, but rather on whether the king's policies were wise and prudent. It's an ill-considered and tone-deaf objection to Tolkien on Martin's part, but the anon in >>20448020 refutes Martin's objection on Martin's own grounds.

>>20448088
>There's no reason to think this is the case.
The fullness of truth is often illuminated by contrast, and there is good reason to think that that is the case here.

the differences between Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen's tax policies are literally never mentioned

>>20447005
>He got a point
He's a peddler of smut and his prose fucking sucks. Thank God GoT S8 forever ruined whatever legacy he would have had.
THANK GOD!

>>20453763
Blessed post fren.

>>20447005
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Didn't Gygax say something about baby orc genocide being Good

>>20447005
THIRSTIER

>>20448255
Fuck these pseuds who equate coldness to cleverness. I feel for you bro, most of your problems aren't your fault, our civilisation is in a rough patch. The anon suggesting a skill is right though, I know it's hard to train and work simultaneously, but if you have to strive brother.

>>20454128
Especially the kings really.

>>20447702
>le beauty
>le ideals
First up, for something to be beautiful needs to be real. And second of all, Martin is an extreme idealist that has written books about world peace. And if you think this conversation has anything to do with beauty it doesn't and you are not understanding it, as neither he is doing in the text.
Tolkien didn't need to write the story Martin wants to hear, because Tolkien wanted to tell other story. Not of beauty or ideals.
And Martin writes the things he does because he wants to tell another story.
Stop trying to make this a huge idological battle when it isn't you fucking wannabe Nietzsche tranny.

>>20447005
>He got a point
>>20454103
>He has a point
/his/ anon here. No he doesn't.
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple.
This is Machiavellian BS. Don't let him peddle his grimdark nonsense. There are loads of examples of medieval monarchs who were good men, good kings and their lands did prosper.
>Alfred the Great
>Æthelstan
>Saint Louis IX
>Saint Ferdinand III
>Alfonso X the Wise
>Baldwin IV of Jerusalem
>Denis I of Portugal
>Casimir III the Great
>Alexander Nevsky
>Stefan Nemanja
>St. Stephen of Hungary
>etc.

>>20456297
define a good king

>>20456297
Gurm already said he doesn't care for history aside from the parts he considers to be the ''juicy stuff''.

>>20453763
Literally this. Glad to see someone acknowledge this instead of peddling the same old “but Tolkien is better because he’s ideal” argument

>>20448255
Only old and dumb fucks can't acknowledge this post for its truth, they don't know shit about the world as it is right now, just preconceptions from when le life was le good.

>>20448020
>Preposterous to ask of this from a medieval polity. Policy is a modern institution.
Crusader Kings literally has a drop down menu listed “Tax Policy”. Retard

>>20448309
>epic work of imagination spanning seven volumes and ten thousand pages
>there are ten sentences could use improvement
wtf I love GRRM now

>>20456297
>>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple.
>This is Machiavellian BS. Don't let him peddle his grimdark nonsense. There are loads of examples of medieval monarchs who were good men, good kings and their lands did prosper.

GRRM didn't say that a land with a good king WOULDN'T prosper, just that it's not as simple as "good king=prosperous land." I also wouldn't accuse GRRM of endorsing Machievellianism; Littlefinger is probably the most Machievellian character in the series and I think we can all tell he's going to end up getting fucked before the end.

>>20449702
>just like muh heckin' vidya!

>>20456578
>crusader kings

>>20448498
He still hasn’t been refuted yet.

>>20447005
I fucking hate him but I can't think of a better representative of American thought in this era.

>>20453763
>It's not something any atheist or materialist could ever understand
I am an atheist and I hate this shit with murderous hatred. I hate living in this disgusting cynical era.

the worst thing is that these people don't just adopt this mindset out of pessimism, they fucking gloat about it. why the fuck would you be so smug about being like this? what the fuck are you winning by being like that? I detest this. when I see this fat goblin looking all satisfied because he's figured out how to slide his fat ball of a body down the greasiest and easiest slope a man can give himself up to I genuinely feel nauseous. this mindset that so many people have today is revolting.

>>20456578
>crusader kings
wow geez i guess you look at marvel films for knowledge on norse mythology anon

>>20447702
Gigabased

>>20456578
Retard.

>>20456166
>First up, for something to be beautiful needs to be real

>>20447005
So you're telling me that not once, NOT ONCE, did any of the Fellowship members try to ravage the virgin assholes of any of their hobbit companions? This is absolutely laughably unrealistic. Think about it. You're on the road for months, haven't had a proper tumble with the boys since you left Rivendell and here, right beside you, are these perfectly round, lightly misted, woodland-fragranced, young and perky hobbit buttholes only inches away from your raging erection. Now let's be honest, tell me without a hint of sarcasm that you wouldn't. OF COURSE you would. ANYBODY would. What's the big deal? It's only natural. But NOOOo, of course that's not "politically correct" enough for the fun family adventure that is Lord of the Rings. I mean even in the book it doesn't happen and there it's just blatant omission of what actually goes down in the trenches. Isn't Tolkien a WW1 veteran? He of all people must know what it's like to be out there in the field, 6 inches deep in some pretty lad's poon because morale is so low that you'd do anything to get your mind off the shit to come. I say it again, who do Jackson and Tolkien think they're fooling? You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it. In reality those hobbits would have gotten fucked so hard by Aragorn's numenorean ubermensch cock that they would have had to be carried through the mines of Moria and to the lands beyond. It actually takes me so much out of the experience that whenever I watch Fellowship I contemplate re-editing the movie only to interlace gay midget porn at opportune moments where it would have made sense for the hobbits to get buttpummeled. Doesn't even matter if they're not wearing the right costumes, it would still feel more authentic than the travesty that we got. Jackson? Yeah right. More like Hackson.

>>20448255
goliards

>The goliardic class in the 12th and 13th centuries is believed to have arisen from a great surplus of clerics and monks (younger sons) in need of developing means of support. The medieval social convention of primogeniture meant that the eldest son inherited title and estate. This practice of bestowing the rights of inheritance upon the eldest son left younger sons to seek other means by which to support themselves. Often, these younger sons went, or were sent, to the universities and monasteries of the day, where theology and preparation for clergy careers were a major focus. Many felt no particular affinity for religious office, and often could not secure an office even if they desired one because of an overabundance of those educated in theology. Consequently, over-educated, under-motivated clerics often adopted not the life of an ordered monk, but one mainly intent on the pursuit of carnal pleasures and on protest within a structured setting associated with carnival, such as the Feast of Fools, or church liturgy (parodic masses).

>>20458149
so beauty is abstract, undefinable and relative? You can't define with words what something beautiful because you are a brainlet. There is no difference between you and a guy who thinks he is a woman because what is being a woman in the first place? whoa... nobody knows its like... abstract bro... No it isn't.

>>20458253
What is a woman?

GRRM isn't a "le pessimistic realpolitik" guy who is ironically and coldly distanced from any political and moral ambitions, in fact the stories of all the Stark children heavily reinforce that being good isn't a bad thing and that honour and loyalty can actually be really strong tools to unite and inspire people.

>>20458268
A woman is a human bean born with female genitalia that allows them to get pregnant, and change to feed their offspring.

>>20447005
The proof is in the pudding as they say
GRRM has written more than Tolkien but what does it all amount to?
ASoIaF will never be as memorable or iconic as LoTR
GRRM has accomplished less with more and it's because he can't see the forest for the trees

>>20458318
Asoiaf will be remembered even if the books never finish, but they will not get anyway close to the summit unless GRRM manages to pull off a miracle and actually finish the last couple of books before he dies in a few years.
There's also the case for LOTR having the superior screen adaption, whereas GoT's final seasons have stained their legacy in the cultural realm for being catastrophically incompetent and disappointing.

>>20448309
holy fuck I don't remember 8 which book is that from?

>>20447005
If you look at third world countries you see these type of problems (except for the economy) sort themselves out..
The government let's the people handle it and if it gets big enough then they step in.
A couple of orcs have moved in and caused havoc in a small part? The men of that village take care of them. It's none of the king's buisness.

>>20447702
This is not about the aesthetics: there is a rule in a society: "Whoever you deal with, makes you become them", therefore watching the efforts of para-athletes, which are nevertheless very admirable, can bring the temporary mobility disorder. If we want humanity to develop, the television should show us people who are healthy, beautiful, strong, honest and wise - not perverts, murderers, weaklings, losers, idiots or, unfortunately, invalids.

>>20447702
Fiction is great because it simulates how the real world could be. If you can't handle fiction with elements of vice, then reality may be too hard for you.

>>20458951
I don't remember the book (probably Feast) but that's Cercei gloating on the fact that Robert never came inside her and she ate his cum.

>I have dislike for tolkein because he intentionally wrote stories that are intentionally different than the stories i want him to write
holy manchild

>>20460101
not all fiction is realism or even realistic

>>20447005

that's some real "who pumps the tires of the batmobile?" energy right there

>>20457254
It makes them feel smart, plain and simple. The idea of "knowing" enough to dispell "silly" idealistic notions is a powerful motivation to many.
The irony here is that they don't realize how much of their own deconstruction is based on absurd moralism and modern ideals. They believe that, by making the king a degenerate, they are somehow figuring the puzzle while at the same time the outcast is exalted to the same unrealistic point the monarch before was. Is not a true critic but an exchange, revolution made narrative.

>>20456321
This is the worst part of me: He openly promotes his books as a more "historical" and "realistic" take on fantasy tropes, yet, not only they are full of utterly unrealistic if not downright retarded elements in what government, noblity, philosphy and religion concern, but furthermore, once questioned about it he says that his interest in the topic is merely limited to assassinations and adultery.
He is selling his series with false pretenses, everyone knows it yet we still have idiots trying to shill his shit as a "realistic" take on fantasy. Pop culture was truly a mistake.

>Verification not required.

>>20447005
Ruins his book series for being a lazy Hollyweird sellout. Too busy cashing in sheckles allowing his series of books being ruined by woke GoT BS... After season 5 I got tired of the woke BS...

>>20447005
All the good writers are dead and all we have is this no morals, pedophile monkey crap everywhere you turn...

All the seething in this thread demonstrates why GRRM is potentially the ultimate writer of our era.

A U T I S M
U
T
I
S
M

>>20448309
Eat your heirs line is unironically hot

>>20453763
You obviously never read Brianne's arc in AFFC

>>20460898
>who pumps the tires of the batmobile?

>>20454115
It's a subtle call out how ridiculous batman is

>>20454115
It actually made sense in context since he is compared to sword of the morning

>>20449611
my sides

>>20454161
Two men handled the taxes. For Robert and Joffrey, it's Littlefinger. For Tommen it's Tywin through Tyrion. Littlefinger have done vertical integration which is pretty advanced for a medieval economic planning.

>>20458166
Lit is full of talented writers

>>20447005
>the entire point of game of thrones is gonna be none of this matters and the white walkers will kill everyone
What did he mean by this? Does he know hes a hack?

He is 73 and obese. It's been a decade and he still hasn't finished his book, and there's still another one after that. If he intends to finish the series, he will need to live at least six more years after The Winds of Winter is published. Will he make it to 80?

>>20461224

>No, no.

>Jaime does not actually own a Valyrian steel sword. The blade he used to kill King Aerys is common castle-forged steel, gilded to match his golden armor. But he can certainly get hold of a Valyrian blade for the fight - Widow's Wail, the twin to Oathkeeper, both made when his father had Ice melted down and reforged. Widow's Wail went to Joffrey, but we all know how that turned out. Now it belongs to Tommen, but the kid's not old enough to use it.

>A sword is not enough, though. This duel is life and death. Jaime is not likely to prance into that clearing smiling and clad only in cloth. He'll armor himself before the match. His gilded plate-and-mail (this is not a fit occasion for the white of the Kingsguard), a crimson cloak, and a shield strapped to his right arm and emblazoned with the lion of Lannister. And of course he will have a helm. Knights who enter battle without one are soon dead. He can smile at Hermione before the match, then lower his visor. The helm, of course, would be fashioned in the shape of a maned lion. (Oddly enough, the Lannister arms look a lot like those of Gryffindor, which might give Hermione a moment's pause).

>He's not going to waste time and effort swatting at birds with his sword, either. He's encased in gilded steel. What are they going to do, crap on him? He'll rush right through the birds, and go straight for Hermione. A sword is not a knight's only weapon. While she's watching the blade, he will slam his shield right into her face, knock her off her feet. Let her try and mumble those spells with a mouthful of broken teeth.

>And if somehow Granger does get off that spell (cheating, really) and turn him upside down, Jaime is more likely to undo the straps on his shield and fling it at her head then to hang there meekly waiting to die.

>But hey, let's say everything goes the way your "experts" say it will, and Hermione wins. Sad to say, she will not live long to enjoy her victory. Sometime very soon, when she least expects it, a "boy" she does not know will bump up against her in the corridors of Hogwarts and suddenly she'll find a dagger sliding through her ribs, right into her heart. "A Lannister always pays his debts," Tyrion will say, as he slips back into the shadows

>>20458374
i seriously doubt ASOIAF will be remembered unless he finishes the books and we get a good ending
(good as in well written, not necessarily a happy ending)

remember Lost?
was a huge cultural phenomenon
nobody mentions it anymore
nobody is rewatching it
the only people that will remember it are those that watched it as it was airing
why? because the ending sucked, and nobody will recommend that a younger person waste their time watching it.

>>20447005
He was a good king, so clearly he had no taxes.

>>20463035
is this fat bastard actually writing fanfic of his characters fighting other fictional characters? Just read jamie vs cthulu and jamie won

>>20458253
Kys

>>20447067
me.

>>20463194
ASOIAF is still a popular fantasy book series with a complex political landscape that's much more ambitious than anything else, it will be a stable in fantasy literature, the last half of ASOS alone might be some of the most eventful fantasy fiction I've ever read.
As for popular culture? No it's already forgotten since most normalfags only care about the show.

>>20463657
>it will be a stable in fantasy literature
lmao oink oink

>>20463702
The iliad is technically unfinished too you know...

>>20463791
No its not. The Iliad meant to tell one part of the the trojan war. Hectors death. Which it did. The war can serve as a backdrop for it and you dont need to see the outcome to get everything out of it.

>>20462746
ive never seen an adult ask this though

>>20453173
>You're an ungrateful piece of shit.
He is right. What good is industrial food, GMO food?
Also quantities of material possessions won't save you.

>>20447005
the exact problem with this fat jew is that he had a medieval-esque setting but his characters are fundamentally modern humans

>>20463249
He had taxes.

>>20464040
>who is george rr martin?

>>20447067
I do

Idealistic fantasy vs. pessimistic realism: the thread

>>20453742
But isn’t Enlightenment philosophy a continuation of Medieval philosophy? It’s the same virtues as Medieval philosophy, just minus God.

I know this is aside the point. But Star Wars novels and Star Wars spin-offs, right? I loved the books that were just about the imperial troops having conference meetings with Vader; or about Han Solo stalking around the trading systems in Tatooine. I’m sure there are even better examples than Star Wars fanfic, I’m pretty sure Isaac Asimov wrote so much of the same. In Sci-Fi when an author adds everyday scenarios and every day conflicts in a fantasy world, people love that stuff. It’s not that Martin is wrong on that idea, it just sounds to me like his writing and plots are lacking according to some anons.

>>20460130
I thought Robert did come in her, it's just that she aborted it the ff morning

>>20447005
>We look at real history and it’s not that simple.

Nah it is that simple besides acts of God

>>20465347
>it just sounds to me like his writing and plots are lacking according to some anons.
he isn't very eloquent, that is for sure.
compared to Tolkien its like reading a 5th grader.
but his plots are superb.
in fact his shitty command of the language is in itself a testament to how good his plot and worldbuilding is.
you don't slog through 4 thousand pages of shittily writtten text without there being a good reason.

>>20465414
His world building is drek, if you have even below-average knowledge of western European history you can easily see where he took inspiration for everything. As far as for plots let's wait and see how he will tie all loose ends

>>20463657
>it will be a staple of fantasy literature
Dude there are no staples of fantasy literature today besides tolkien, narnia and harry potter, maybe wheel of time and MAYBE earthsea. Especially among sword and sorcery books, who the fuck actually reads
>conan
>sword of truth
>grey mouser and fnaughgahfr
>amber
>raymond feist
>redwall
>mccaffreyshit
>king arthurshit
or any of the piles of other shit that people used to read in the 40s-80s? Fucking nobody, its a dead genre kept propped up temporarily by HBO fake blood and tiddys

>>20447005
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine?
A medieval king would do what is customary to do, unless it is a completely unprecedented event.

>>20456634
yeah because honorable rulers like eddard get such a good treatment
>two more weeks
why even make this argument?

>>20465287
it's just clearly not, how the fuck can you be this retarded?

>>20466236
>honorable
You keep using that word. I don't think you understand what it means.

>>20447702
>>20447872
Based and based.
>>20450923
kek

>>20452885
He's still alive.

>>20448309
>comparing the worst of a thing to the best of other things
Boy, you sure made a point.

>>20466280
>the Mesopotamian definition is different from how I use it
ok

Ramsey is Azor Ahai

>>20466570
Medieval Irish, Medieval Welsh, Ancient Greek, Mesopotamian, and every fucking other culture of worth.

>>20447005
Is he wrong? Those are some serious questions that need answers.

>>20447005
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy
so a medieval fantasy work had medieval philosophy and that's a bad thing? this fat fuck is fucking retarded

>>20447872
kek based post

>>20448309
wtf that comment about sperm. has Westeros developed microbiology already?

>>20467403
you don't need microbiology to have an concept of sperm
people have the idea of it being 'seeds' since antiquity, it's even the origin of the word itself

>>20447005
Not just the orcs
My the orcettes
And the orclets too.

>>20447005
>tfw he imagined a downward spiral of disenchantment from a heroic age for a follow up novel and judged it meh
Tolkien answered the question to his satisfaction, yet here is this epigone of swine stringing his readers along more than a decade fully intending to 'die in the saddle' and not leave any of his literary estate open for scrutiny or completion. Truly a burgerpunk Kafka.

>>20447005
>over one hundred hours of footage of GRRM talking about his stories, his motivations, why he makes certain decisions
>fantasy fans wake up every day and choose to seethe over one quote from 2014

>>20462746
god i hate morrison

>>20463311
he wrote it satirically to make fun of the kind of people who care about "power levels"

>>20463833
Here's a fantastic fantasy series that really is unfinished: gormenghast. some of the best art never concludes and that only heightens its intrigue
>>20465616
>Especially among sword and sorcery books
Fafhrd and the gray mouser was essentially proto-discworld. it did the making-fun-of-fantasy routine decades before it was popular and it actually struck at topical tropes that are only more relevant today thanks to how inadvertently influential fritz leiber ended up being. he coined the idea of a thieve's guild as a joke, and now you see it in extremely mainstream fantasy like skyrim.

>>20465616
>who the fuck actually reads
>>conan

a collection of the most popular stories were recently translated into a cool hardcover edition (pic related)
pick it up since I love the 1st conan movie

It's great!!!
Honestly kinda sad I didn't read Conan sooner and wasted my time with so much modern shit
I am even considering selling all my fantasy library (save for Tolkien, ASoIaF and a handful of other titles) for pennies or even giving them away, because save for those, most modern fantasy ut there is so mediocre even the ones from supposedly great authors
But Conan really surprised me with how good it was - the writing is sharp, the setting intriging, and the Barbarian himself is so fucking based and surprisingly likable, even profound at times


>>king arthurshit

It's literally taught in all decent western universities as a piece of Western Canon and Medieval Literature
And basically all major western fantasy decends from it
Arthurian Myths will never, not be widely read and ripped from when it comes to fantasy

>>20461224
Who pumps Robin's ass?

>>20448255
True, 175 years ago you woulda worked 14 hours, 6 days a week and a wife and children you could beat. Much better.

>>20447872
That's right, and the balance is played by Moorcock who wanted to reject Tolkien but in the end created both beautiful and evil things.

>>20454199
Orcs are ontologically evil. No act that is against them can be bad.

>>20456578
>>>/vg/

>>20468557

he loves u tho

>>20447005
Say what you want about Tolkien but this is a absolute smooth brain take
If the author tells you the king is a wise and just ruler then is safe to assume that his tax policies would be set up in a wise and just way

Orc Holocaust when?

>build a wall 700 ft high
>have an undermanned garrison
>send your men out on "ranging" duty
?????????????

>>20447005
Didn't Tolkien say that he considered writing a story about the age of men after the events of LotR but decided not to because it would be too dark and cynical and mundane?

>>20447005
>What was Aragorn’s tax policy?
A fair one
>Did he maintain a standing army?
Yes, obviously
>What did he do in times of flood and famine?
Helped whoever was in need if they could not help themselves and there were spare resources available
>And what about all these orcs?
After the fall of Mordor, they were held at bay by the standing army.
> Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them?
Possibly, orcs are subhuman anyway, it's no different to getting rid of cockroaches, a "cockroach genocide."

>>20470499
nvm found it

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."

>>20458166
There's an fanfic historical article with the premise that Tolkien censored much of the Red Book to match his own morality.

>>20447067
Sounds good.

>>20450880
Post body

This thread is pathetic af.

GRRM extented the possibilites of what fantasy can be.
If you think GRRM is bad why dont ya just consume a bajillion works tolkien wannabes?

>>20472994
Stop bumping a dead thread, OP. No one cares.

WHERE THE FUCK IS WINDS GEORGE

>>20472998
Relax, we are all fans here.

>>20472994
why hasnt he finished writing the story he started in 1991?

>>20473946
He's gardening it

So what was Aragorn's tax policy?

>>20475178
hobbits pay double

>>20472994
>fantasy
>achieving anything
top jej

>>20456907
stay in your echo chamber retard

>>20453742
what's wrong with country bumpkins, city slicker?

>>20470769
post

>>20476035
hobbits pay half nigger they're short

>>20476109
half the man, half the usefulness

>>20458297
So an infertile girl isn't a woman? :(
Your definition is cringe

>>20458374
Yeah well LOTR was stained by the dogshit Hobbit adaptation

>>20453173
Yessss I should be grateful for microplastics, for my palm oil, for my frozen meat, for my cheese product contains no dairy, for my soda, for my macdonald yesss glory be civilization! praise science!

>>20447005
Why does he think that orcs are a legitimate race with women and children? this isn't warcraft
orcs are undead mutant creatures of death and evil, artificially created and without souls and shit

Maybe he should've read tolkien before talking shit

>>20447872
I stop dick sucking.

>>20447067
I was against GRRM but your post is even worse. I would absolutely read Medieval C-Span

>>20447702
this anon has a massive cock

>>20470459
yeah like just seal the tunnel lmfao.

>>20476765
Well they need a gate to cut back the tree line, which the books state that they have slacked on doing. That should be the realistic role of anyone titled "ranger" which is literally someone who manages a forest.

>>20478670
>Well they need a gate to cut back the tree line,
why?

>>20478907
Fortress building 101, you have to cut back woodline around any defensive walls so that the attackers cannot use it to disrupt your projectile, artillery, and arrow fire. Jon talk about how cutting back the forest is a responsibility of the watch and notes how the wildings use a large tree to get a head start on climbing the wall when he climbs over the wall with the wildings.

>>20456166
>First up, for something to be beautiful needs to be real.
Starting with the greeks is essential, and so is erudition in mathematics. Your take is complete shit because you fail at both. The perfect circle is beautiful without being real.

>>20476254
it's always about """useful""" to you biggers
can never just relax with a pipe and a pint

>>20447005
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Yes

>>20479220
back to work growing pipe weed ya lil shits

>>20453742
tard

>>20453068

Is this even English?

>>20447005
Same stupid nonsense that characterises the three or four tumultuous centuries of revolution that we've just been through. Le Kings are le bad. Hand over all power to the next strutting little Robespierre with a list of people who need killing. Surely that will fix things this time.

Tolkien pointed back to an older authority established by tradition and bulwarked by Faith. It's largely incomprehensible in any serious sense to the children of the time of Revolutions. But there's a power there that still makes them want to read about it.

>>20479425

does anybody have that greentext about Tolkien talking about how he began writing a sequel to LOTR where everything goes sour and realized it was cringy retarded pointless edgelord shit and abandoned it as self-admitted garbage? went something like
>Tolkien, on why he didn't write Game of Thrones

>>20448309
Honestly I like "her cunt became the world"

>>20447872
based

>Every house has a maester, a solar, and a godswood
its all so tiresome

>>20479101
>old greeks wrote stuff therefore true
you are a problem to society and to yourself. things can only be if they are real.

>>20480217
Seconding this sounds kino

>>20480217
We already have a LotR story that is about things going sour and it is good.

>>20480203
I hate that I'm seeing this shit unfold right now before my eyes. It's insane how everyone's completely swallowed the same revisionist nonsense.

>>20448020
>autarkic

>>20447005
>that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple
Rule by virtue is a concept universally accepted outside of modernity. It’s not just “medieval.” Read the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, whatever, and you’ll find the same thing.

>>20480217
>>20482050
I found it
>"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."

>>20482187
lmao queer

>>20447005
>Camera gives close-up of Martin sitting in his XL gamer chair, scratching pen from an A4 sheet
>"No no no! The tax system can't have broken in the year 357 because Tyrion reformed the Iron Bank before that!"
>Presses a button on his special phone that has extra large numbers
>"Hey, cancel the last order of 15 pizzas. I need to fix something before breakfast."
>Camera slow-pans to desk
>Waste-paper basket full of crumpled up sheets labeled shit like "STDs from dragon sex" and "LittleFinger stuck up his ass"
>little finger is crossed out

>>20456578
got em, all others: seethe & cope.

>>20447872
Stale pasta. "old thing good, new thing bad". Take the stick out of your ass, they are both good authors but very different.

>>20448255
Supremely based post. The first few replies prove his point, everybody just yells and screams at each other, nobody's civil any more. Nobody thinks what it's like to be the other guy.

>>20470509
>orcs are subhuman anyway
They were once elves. Are you saying people consumed by evil are completely irredeemable? That seems to be in conflict with the whole concept of Christianity, of which Tolkien prized so highly

>>20470520
God, sounds like the kind of trash Dosto was always on about. These people really are misanthropes, aren't they? They really believe humans are just doomed to be corrupt and evil and the only respite are heroes that they, as authors, craft personally and without that the rabble will just turn to evil. The sheer fucking hubris is enough to make one sick.

>>20480203
Prince or politician, preacher or polemicist, it all leads to one thing, the interminable Pareto principle. Every means of power over large groups is used to centralize and concentrate that power even more into a small over class and a large under class. Unironically, only through cataclysmic events such as war, revolution, or other upheaval are there periods of decentralization.

>>20483335
holy fucking shit now this is proper criticism
More please anon

>>20484294
>Tolkien writes his version of Arthurian legend
OMG THE GENIUS

>>20483335
>STDs from dragon sex