/lit/ - Literature

Timetable for Dubliners
May 21: The Sisters
May 22: An Encounter
May 23: Araby
May 24: Eveline
May 25: After the Race
May 26: Two Gallants
May 27: The Boarding House
May 28: A Little Cloud
May 29: Counterparts
May 30: Clay
May 31: A Painful Case
June 1: Ivy Day in the Committee Room
June 2: A Mother
June 3: Grace
June 4: The Dead

>We operate according to UTC
Yuck.

>>20389121
Is there a problem with UTC? I supposed it'd be nice to coordinate everything according to a universal time zone.

>>20389190
Not as much soul as GMT lol.

>>20389195
i see. well, see you at 0000h GMT on the 21st of may, anon!!

>>20388908
Do you really need to read the Odyssey and Dante's Divine Comedy to get Ulysses? I want to read Ulysses but I'm not really in the mood for the other two.

>>20389532
Odyssey, yes. Divine Comedy, no.

>>20389532
you don't...it might make the reading a bit richer, but the annotated student edition of Ulysses has notes that point out some of the parallels and allusions

>>20389532
I have read the oddyssey and am about 150 pages in Ulysses and honestly I haven't picked up on any allusions. Thus far I would say that it doesn't matter, I would recommend you to read dubliners first though, just to get a feel for his writing, it will be much easier to read and you will have a better idea of what he's trying to achieve.

>>20389563 is correct! Which is why we're gonna be reading Dubliners and A Portrait before Ulysses.

>>20389532
No, not at all.
People who say this are retarded.
If there is one book to be considered important to the experience of reading Ulysses, it should be Hamlet. Homer creeps up very slowly through the book, but right in the first page you already have Shakespeare and specifically Hamlet.
There are MANY parallels with Hamlet in Ulysses throughout the entire book, it's almost a dissertation on it, e.g. at the very first pages, the two in a sort of watch-tower, the ghost being Daedalus' mother.

>>20389532
Having a map of Dublin would help you out more with Ulysses than being familiar with The Odyssey

>>20389725
this is true.
this (https://www.joyceproject.com) is a very useful resource on Ulysses. It has colour-coded annotations that explain everything, from geography and Irish culture to the jokes and literary references. Try not to get too overwhelmed by the annotations; there's an option to turn the colours off. But all that is for next month. Before that, we begin Dubliners on the 21st! See all of you then!

>>20389538
>>20389553
>>20389563
>>20389574
>>20389685
>>20389725
>>20389741
Thanks, this makes the task a lot less daunting. I'm just too much of a stickler for /lit/ charts that I can't get into most books.I'm reluctant to use guides because it feels like cheating but I'm also strapped for time so it usually results in an impasse and I end up reading some other random book.It's especially a problem for me with non-fiction works like Baudrillard [he's influenced by Heidegger, who's influenced by nearly every philosopher from the presocratics to obscure 19th century ones] and longer novels like Petersburg by Andrei Bely,or the Magic Mountain or even novellas like Concrete by Thomas Bernhard[Wittgenstein].How do I fix this?

>>20389864
What, you don't need Heidegger to read Baudrillard. You better not read French post-modern "philosophy" at all tho.

>>20388908
Alright, I'll get Dubliners tomorrow from the library and try to keep up. So on the 21st the thread topic is the chapter we read, which means I have until 8pm east coast time to discuss it before the next chapter begins?

>>20389864
>How do I fix this?
Just read it.
At the end of the day, all the writers, all the works that influenced the book you are reading won't impact your experience all that much.
Plus, any good book will demand at least a second reading so for your first time, just read it, do your best to understand it but don't sweat it. If you miss something it's perfectly fine, finish it, give it some time, maybe now you dedicate some time to the influences of that author, then later on you come back to it. You don't get only one shot at a book in your life.
Having already read it once, and now having also read he works that influenced that one book, your understanding will increase very much, as well as your appreciation for that work.
Here is a quote by Joyce to help you read Ulysses.
>The pity is the public will demand and find a moral in my book — or worse they may take it in some more serious way, and on the honor of a gentleman, there is not one single serious line in it.

>>20389914
yes, ideally. but there's absolutely nothing wrong with lagging behind a little. no particular rigidity in the schedule.

Who here has read Joyce before?

>>20388942
I don't know why I'm surprised it takes /lit/ a day to read a 4-page story, but I am all the same.

>>20390390
anon, this is to allow for discussion, and to warm up and build traction for the ulysses club. people aren't gonna drop what they're reading just for a 4chan reading group.
notice how the pace gets faster and the reading load gets heavier.

>>20390382
I finished Portrait last month. I don't know if I'm ready to tackle it again so soon, especially since I'm also reading another book and I'm writing and working at the same time.

>>20390461
try dubliners. the load is super light

i have to admit, i'm looking forward to this even if it might fail

>>20391236
Same. Plus we get the chance to make some memes during discussion. Contributing to threads is important.

>>20389532
This needing to read this to understand that never ends. Same thing would happen if you decide to read the Divine Comedy.

>>20391609
I'm reading Inferno now on Gutenberg and the footnotes alone take up half the read time. There are no footnote versions for Purgatorio and Paradisio, as far as I can tell

Having a copy of the schema to hand greatly helps decoding Ulysses, or at least understanding why the writing style changes from chapter to chapter. https://www.ulyssesguide.com/schema

Best advice on the book though: nobody really knows what's going on after the first third, and if you honestly get stuck try reading aloud in a bad Irish accent. It's meant to be heard, not read.

(And yeah, you won't get everything at once, so don't worry about missing out. Just concentrate on the beach wanking or whatever.)

>>20391656
http://dantelab.dartmouth.edu/reader

It's all right here (except for a modern English translation, which can be found at http://www.worldofdante.org/index.html).).

>>20391236
I was actually about to start reading Dubliners so this works out pretty well for me. Excited to see where it goes.

>>20389532
The only thing you need is Dubliners and Portrait. Everything else is just handy to read to catch refrences.

>>20392032
>https://www.ulyssesguide.com/schema
wow. great resource. thanks!

>>20390382
I had to read sections of Ulysses in my English course, I always intended to read the whole thing so this is a nice way of doing it.

>>20390382
Only his letters

>You had an arse full of farts that night, darling, and I fucked them out of you, big fat fellows, long windy ones, quick little merry cracks and a lot of tiny little naughty farties ending in a long gush from your hole.
>My sweet little whorish Nora. I did as you told me, you dirty little girl, and pulled myself off twice when I read your letter. I am delighted to see that you do like being fucked arseways.
>Fuck me if you can squatting in the closet, with your clothes up, grunting like a young sow doing her dung, and a big fat dirty snaking thing coming slowly out of your backside

>>20390382
Read everything except FW. I have absolutely no interest in getting involved with that until I have a lot of time. I may do it for my PHD if I get that far God willing. Either that or the real life Buck Mulligan. My Joyce Autism knows no bounds.

>>20394199
that's awesome. i wish you the best of luck.
will you be joining us here? autism is very valued in circles like these.
>>20394103
glad to hear that, anon. see you tomorrow!

june 17: finnegans wake
june 18: the fart letters

>>20394406
haha. i'm gonna observe the response this thread receives first. i'll adjust the pacing for ulysses accordingly

im dropping moby dick for this

>>20394455
anon, the per-day load for dubliners isn't very high. you can continue moby dick up until we begin a portrait, which is when the pace will increase.
see you tomorrow!

>>20394192
Why was Joyce such a scatological pervert when urological perversion exists

>>20394384
I suppose I shall. It's rare to get very good Joyce discussion anywhere for a start and I do enjoy the enthusiasm that people have for it.
>>20394580
>when urological perversion exists
>He doesn't know about the time he tried to seduce a girl with a story about how turned on he got when he heard a nurse pissing in a bush

>>20394616
hah. i didn't know about this.

Bumping. Discussion for The Sisters begins tonight at 8pm EST?

>>20395390
We have 8 hours to go!

>Dubliners
https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/2814
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-joyce/dubliners
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dubliners
https://www.archive.org/details/dubliners00joycuoft

Last link is a scanned version of the first edition, for anybody looking for a more SOULFUL experience.
Can't wait to begin Dubliners!

>>20388908
What's Joyce best book.

>>20396177
Ulysses.

>>20396177
Finnegans Wake

>>20396177
Stephen Hero

>>20388908
>June 16: Ulysses
can't wait for this

also imo 9 days are too few for the portrait

>>20396177
The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

>>20396597
It's a 240 page book, give or take. So maybe 20 pages a day?

>>20396655
>It's a 240 page book, give or take. So maybe 20 pages a day?
fair enough
Joyce is slower to read though
especially for non native English speakers
I know this because I have already read it
but I'm willing to participate to the reading group
despite in those days I'll may be busy due uni exams

regarding Ulysses, what's indicatively the planned ending date?

>>20397054
i'm not sure. for ulysses we might either do a chapter a week or 2 chapters a week. i'm open to suggestions as to how we should schedule it too.

>>20397473
a chapter a week sounds fine to me
let's see what other anons say
see you tomorrow! good night

We have reached the 21st of May GMT

Good story, I liked it.

Sometimes I read Joyce and I feel like I'm missing something. What I got out of The Sisters is the boy there was under the influence of the priest who liked cocaine. Poor guy was an abuser of the drug, especially after an incident involving the disappearance of an important chalice in the church. Or the breaking of one? Did I miss anything in particular? Subtext?

>>20397876
I think you missed that snuff is not cocaine.
>boy is fascinated by how deep religion goes
>enjoyed Father Flynn's company and wisdom
>relatives think it inappropriate to spend so much time around a grown man and that he should be with kids his own age
>Father Flynn lived a lonely life and the first sign his health/mind was failing was breaking that chalice
Pretty straightforward

>>20388908
I predict the Ulysses read along will go something like this:
>everyone loves the first chapter and the references to Hamlet and Catholicism
>next couple chapters have less posts
>all of a sudden, during Proteus, the thread will be packed with unanimous praise for Joyce’s genius and the few that criticize will be shouted down with the word “filtered”
>next few chapters will have drastically less posters for some reason despite loving Proteus

>>20397876
I did get the sense that there was some darker secret about the priest, coming from the narrator's dream that mentions simony (which I admittedly had to look up), and how he mentioned he felt resolved after the priest's death. He also seemed to expect the priest to appear happy in death. Also notable was that he was buried with the chalice.

>>20397876
I thought the snuff was cocaine too but it left discolouration on his clothes so I looked it up. Snuff back then was tobacco that could be snorted or chewed. He can't have his snuff without help because of shakey hands, this may be parkinsons or a stand-in for old age and weakness (death is nearing and so on).
The chalice is the first sign of his dying health, and I think the Father could not handle this, hence the weird behaviour and zoning out.
I read the relationship between the boy and Preist as being about loneliness, and how the boy animated Father Flynn by helping him forget about his inevitable death. Without the boy around he would just sit and zone out.
Maybe there is something there about how old people have much to teah us but we segregate youth from the elderly most of the time? I think this because of the conversation between Mr Cotter and the uncle, they clearly don't approve of the boy's relationship with the priest.

>>20397876
>cocaine
It was snuff my man, sniffing tobaco.
>Did I miss anything in particular? Subtext?
>>20398015
>>20398605
The accepted theory and the one I think is more than likely as well (used it whenever I talked about The Sisters anyway lol) is that the priest was dying of syphilis. His slow decline and eventual death was used as a metophor for the state of the Catholic Church at the time: this grand institution being killed off due to its own hypocricy and the boy, who did loved the preist for all the good he had done him, especially academically is turned off due to the darker, seedier nature of the man and feels almost free now, like he was in a golden cage.
It sort of emulates Joyce's own experience with the Church. He went to Clongowes Wood College, the best secondary school in Ireland (even today) which was run by jesuists and then to Belvedere college in Dublin which was also run by priests. Joyce appreciates all he learned from those priests but realises that he was being pigeonholed and to use the main word of the novel "paralyzed". We'll see the theme of paralysis pop up in every story in Dubliners.

>>20398720
OP here. Thank you so much, anon.
>“Wide-awake and laughing-like to himself.... So then, of course, when they saw that, that made them think that there was something gone wrong with him...."
I know I'm reaching hard here, but the boy's dream in the beginning:
>It began to confess to me in a murmuring voice and I wondered why it smiled continually and why the lips were so moist with spittle. But then I remembered that it had died of paralysis and I felt that I too was smiling feebly as if to absolve the simoniac of his sin.
I'm not too familiar with Christian eschatology, but I think there's something significant about the parallels here. And him teaching the boys about the intricacies of religion [in exchange for that sweet sweet High Toast, of course. or whatever olfactory/gustatory adjective you could apply to snuff].

In the original 1904 version [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sisters_(Joyce,_1904)],
there's many places where things are spelt out more unambiguously:
>"Do you think they will bring him to the chapel?" asked my aunt.
>"Oh, no, ma'am. I wouldn't say so."
>"Very unlikely," my uncle agreed.
and
>When he was tired of hearing the news he used to rattle his snuff-box on the arm of his chair to avoid shouting at her, and then he used to make believe to read his Prayer Book. Make believe, because, when Eliza brought him a cup of soup from the kitchen, she had always to waken him.
and
>He had an egoistic contempt for all women-folk, and suffered all their services to him in polite silence.
This line above in particular might hint at... homosexuality? I only say this because anon brought up syphilis.

>>20399010
The 1904 version is interesting, I actually enjoy the ability to discuss it more because the story went under a lot of revisions before it was eventually published in Dubliners which makes me wonder about what else it evolved from.
>He had an egoistic contempt for all women-folk, and suffered all their services to him in polite silence.
>This line above in particular might hint at... homosexuality? I only say this because anon brought up syphilis.
I would say it's more in line of that old Catholic attitude of Eve's fall. Joyce had a very complicated relationship with women and I think he's not as much hinting as he is explaining to maybe himself or trying to show that the attitude's towards women stem from how the church presents them: forbidden fruit and innately sinful creatures. When we get to Araby we'll see more of this presentation of women as not really human in the same way men are, more etheral but I digress. I think the priest wasn't gay but more than likely had sex with one of the many prostitutes Dublin had at the time and it eventually killed him, maybe this is where the hatred came from or maybe it simply built from his own dogmatic view from his Catholic ethos that he as a priest surely believed strongly in.
Interestingly enough, there is also a tie in with Irish history potentially. Back before the Norman invasion of Ireland the Queen of Leinster left her husband for the King of Breifne and so the King of Leinster, Dermot MacMurragh asked for help from the King of England which would eventually lead to the English foothold in Ireland for the next 800 odd years. The poor Queen would take the wrath of the Irish populace for being responsible for this invasion for a long time afterwards.

>>20399044
yeah. Proteus has Stephen seething about women too. All that about unwashed loins and all.

>>20399044
Thanks so much, anon! What exactly is simony? I keep wondering whether the priest was engaging in simony by exchanging his priestly knowledge for snuff. What exactly are ecclesiastic privileges?
I'm not too sure, but does this line of reasoning hold any water?

Reading clubs for difficult books like Ulysses is actually good because it filters retards so thread post quality is high.

>>20399073
Stephen has such a weird relationship with women in general. There's a good few essays you could bang out to that one little topic and get published fairly easily as well.
>>20399079
You're on the ball with what you said, it's not the popular definition of simony (AKA the one Luther complained against) but you can't give out sacred knowledge for money etc. I actually haven't read Sisters in about a year so I sort of forget if the boy actually gave him snuff at all let alone sell it for knowledge, I don't think he did anyway.
>>20399096
I want a Dostoevsky one after, keep the ball rolling

>>20399102
the boy didn't deliberately SELL him snuff as such, but he would bring him snuff regularly, and the implication is maybe that the snuff served as the excuse or occasion for them to meet.

thank you so much for your posts in this thread, anon. it's a wonderful surprise to see everyone in this thread discussing the story.

>>20399173
>the boy didn't deliberately SELL him snuff as such, but he would bring him snuff regularly, and the implication is maybe that the snuff served as the excuse or occasion for them to meet.
Yeah that sounds familiar, I would have done the read along if it wasn't at 1am GMT so I'm going off my memory lol.
>thank you so much for your posts in this thread, anon. it's a wonderful surprise to see everyone in this thread discussing the story.
As the other anon said, threads like these keep the shitposters away, I actually found the best discussion of Joyce online in general has come from /lit/. I'll keep popping up when I can, I'm usually having my breakfast when I'm browsing anyway.

>>20399276
sounds awesome!
but just to be clear, you don't have to start reading AT 00:00 UTC! anybody can join in and start at any time!

It seems like I'm ngmi, bros. I read The Sisters, but I didn't feel anything. I don't know if that is because I'm too autistic to read fiction (this always was a great struggle for me and I made it through very few books to which I don't want to come back) or because I don't like Joyce in particular. Maybe, at least I should try to appreciate it somehow? So, what should I do now, after I read it? What kind of discussion do reading literary texts provide? It seems that I'm hopeless in terms of getting something from it.

>>20399480
The sisters isn't really the best thing he's ever written I wouldn't worry. Especially due to the themes and nature being very Irish. I wouldn't expect anybody outside of Ireland to really feel anything towards it. Araby, A Painful Case and A Little Cloud are much more universal with the latter being the one I got the most feeling out of.

>>20399480
it's just a short story. you don't have to experience an epiphany with everything you read, anon!
we're all GMI.

>>20399486
>>20399523
Thanks. I guess I will at least try to make it to Ulysses. Probably, the other problem is that I'm an ESL and my English level is not high enough to read fiction -- I now tried to read Dubliners in my native language and it's much more coherent and pleasant. Anyway, I will try to stick with the original as it's a good opportunity to master my reading comprehension in English.

>>20399571
anon, just the fact that you're trying tells me you're gonna make it. plenty of native speakers don't bother to spend their time reading fiction. you'll be okay!

Joyce manages to capture and delineate life in the little tiny nuances of behaviour. There's so many instances of this in just The Sisters. I can't wait to see what else he has in store for us.

so essentially, the priests paralysis represents a sort of religious upheavel in Ireland at the time? the dropping of the chalice by a youth obviously represents some sort of change in the irish-catholic identity catalyzed by a younger generation, right? though, old cotter is wary of the boy hanging out with the priest, does this mean old cotter is disillusioned with the church as well? Or is it simply because the priest is old? i sort of have a feeling its more because he's a priest

i really the dark-room-gray-face bit with the boy feeling as if the face wants to confess something, all while smiling. very eerie imagery and story. cant wait to get filtered by ulysses

8/10

>>20399523
What the hell is an epiphany in the joycean sense

>The thread's up
Sweet, looking forward for reading with you lads, Thanks for pulling through and making this happen, OP.

>>20392032
Read this in the last thread and it looks like it'll be great to have on hand once we get to reading Ulysses

>>20399863
hyperbole. the anon i was replying to seemed to be lamenting the fact that he "felt nothing."

>>20399854
>the priests paralysis represents a sort of religious upheavel in Ireland at the time
i love this! i feel like the ending, with him smiling and talking to no one also represents a shift towards materialistic thinking and away from supernatural belief, because Eliza goes:
>“Wide-awake and laughing-like to himself.... So then, of course, when they saw that, that made them think that there was something gone wrong with him....”
do you suppose that "made them THINK" implies that another truth is possible: that he hasn't gone insane but is in reality talking to God?
>i really the dark-room-gray-face bit with the boy feeling as if the face wants to confess something, all while smiling. very eerie imagery and story.
i loved the description of the dream. there's so many possible dimensions here to consider. in just this little short story. wow! i'm glad everyone's been replying and contributing with such meaningful discussion!
let's keep these threads going, everybody!

>>20400105
none of this would be possible with all the other posters here, anon. i'm glad this seems to be working out thus far.

Proust readalong when?

>>20400143
maybe we could do "in search of lost time" after ulysses? let's see, anon.

>>20400143
The 2 year read along

>>20388908
I finished the portrait of the artist, didn't really like it desu

>>20400217
g- gomennasai, anon-kun. watashi didn't shiranakatta that anata'd daikirai jeimusu joisu's besuto novel desu.

I am very fond of this beautiful, somewhat mysterious story. It always puts a kind of spell on me.

I think the tragedy is not any hidden sexual sin, but simply that the priest was psychologically fragile from his youth ("too scrupulous always"; "poor James was so nervous"), and the business with breaking the chalice somehow tipped his precarious mental balance over the edge: "That affected his mind."

It is perhaps significant, for purposes of understanding the rather elliptical narrative, that the story was originally written to comport with the editor's request for something "simple, rural," with an element of pathos, but not shocking.*

The pathos lies in the circumstance - which I think people in a Catholic community could understand and sympathize with - of a well-meaning person who becomes a priest, but is in some way ill-suited to the work. It is just inherently a rather sad situation:

>“He was too scrupulous always,” she said. “The duties of the priesthood was too much for him. And then his life was, you might say, crossed.”
>“Yes,” said my aunt. “He was a disappointed man. You could see that.”

*See: https://www.languagesandliterature.com/2020/03/13/the-sisters-by-james-joyce/

>>20400295
this makes a lot of sense. i suppose the beauty lies in the many, many layers of mystery that cloud the narrative. from the adults being wary of him for sexual immorality or simony to him just being a very disturbed man. there are many, many ways to interpret this work. i'm amazed.

Ya! yaka, yaka, yaka!

that story was good introduction to joyce cant wait til tomorrow

>>20388908
Can we read the Illiad some day ?

Mahony is a CHAD with three totties.

I’ll be sleeping during the initial posts (currently living in Dublin actually) but I want to start some discussion on a specific topic of “An Encounter”. When I wake I’ll respond to some opinions.

Homosexuality in Joyce’s works is one of the most intriguing reoccurring topics. It’s in Dubliners, Portrait, and Ulysses (can’t comment on Finnegans Wake, haven’t tried it yet). However his commentary is always vague. Here we see it’s first “encounter”. I’d like to point out some things that have been noted by other joyceans, that is fascinating about this chapter. First it could be noted that Green carnations were worn by Oscar Wilde as a symbol of his sexuality. One may have noticed that the narrator
> examined the foreign sailors to see had any of them green eyes

while this could imply just a general desire to meet exotic people, we must not forget the man of the titular encounter
> chewed one of those green stems on which girls tell fortunes.
> He was shabbily dressed in a suit of greenish-black

However one doesn’t need to know Oscar Wildes tells to pick up on the odd sexual nature of the old man and how he seemed to be preying on our narrator. However I don’t want to taint your initial thoughts anymore. Anons what do you think joyce is saying here on sexuality?

Now I have myself a grand theory on Joyce and homosexuality (even greater than stephen’s hamlet theory) however it requires the context of dubliners to ulysses. However I will share a sliver of my grand theory after I hear some of your fine initial thoughts.

>>20402010
I think there's a more obvious answer; the man is a leprechaun.

Pretty nice little story. It reminded me a lot of when I was a kid and exploration seemed natural but scary. It was always strange to get away from the world you knew and even just go walking in the woods in your backyard.
As for the old man in the actual encounter, I think he may have been trying to sus out where the narrator was mentally. The old man had clear ulterior motives and the kid knew that and could sense it. The line about the old man grabbing him by the ankles hit awful close to home. I've had that fear many times of turning your back on someone and not knowing if a fist or knife or anything is going to come afterward.
In particular I really liked the feel of the story, of a kid cutting school to go around town and have a day with a friend. Very elementary school. I don't know much about subtext, but I liked the prose.

>>20388908
I finished Ulysses a couple months ago, I don't think I want to reread it anytime soon. It was really interesting and even funny in parts, but it was a lot of work.

>>20402010
If you mention THAT line from Proteus you'll be starting a never ending discussion and I want that. Give it to us lad as I sip tea here in Galway

An Encounter for me is a strange little story, obvious child molestation undertones are well noted and to go over it would be tired I think so I'll go a different route.

I think the story shows how the yearning for freedom will often unexpectedly lead one into danger, even when you aren't fully aware of it. The fact that the two kids are pretending to be cowboys, the ultimate symbol of that freedom in life for good and bad is a testement to this. Freedom is always something that's been fought for but not something many people actually take advantage of. Most people enjoy the idea of freedom more than the reality and much like the boys pretending to be cowboys they themselves also pretend to free and carefree when in reality all they seek is safety and comfort and the idea of having that free lifestyle like the cowboys of the old west.
You could tie this into Joyce I suppose, who took a big risk leaving Ireland the second time with Nora with absolutely no way of supporting himself apart from the odd English lessons which he hated doing. with the real reality of becoming destitute. Joyce lived with danger on his frontdoor step, although it wasn't a person or the threat of violence and more of an implication that loomed over him; much like how the boys never are actually in danger when one reads it literally but the implication of danger is there although it is much more vague and it could be physical danger, sexual or maybe even both. In the end the narrator decides to leave, presumably to go home and be safe once again.

>>20403117
So i’ll say that my theory falls in line with what was said here >>20403171
One of Stephen’s main desires as a character is freedom (Daedalus). I believe one of those was a desire to be free of the shackles both of women and gender roles. Now this sounds like a too modern interpretation but in ulysses I’ll point out my evidence. I believe Joyce desired this freedom and either had or got close to a gay experience in paris around 1902. He then later realized a complex believe about homosexuality. Ill hold off on my evidence since it pertains mostly to Portrait and Ulysses but I’ll say that “An encounter” is a taste of this thought and will be explored further in his other books

>>20403367
>I believe Joyce desired this freedom and either had or got close to a gay experience in paris around 1902
I enjoy theories and obscure hidden clues in literature, especially with Joyce but I can never get behind anything that has been having a gay experience. From all the people that knew him, all the letters, all the stories, we have never as much gotten a hint of it. The most we have to go off is the line from Proteus I mentioned earlier "the love that dare not speak its name"

>>20403367
anon, could you please present your evidence but spoiler it so that people who haven't read A Portrait and Ulysses don't see it?
Nice name, by the way!
>>20403171
>>20402600
>>20402010
great points, everyone.
i'd like to point out that it wasn't the strange man but the narrator himself who
>chewed one of those green stems on which girls tell fortunes.
but yes, i also noticed that the man himself had
>a pair of bottle-green eyes
all of you have made great points about homosexuality and freedom and danger. i hope to see Cranly's Arm's theory. looking forward to it. i myself can understand the fear that comes from uncertainty.

what MOST interests me, however, is the last line:
>My voice had an accent of forced bravery in it and I was ashamed of my paltry stratagem. I had to call the name again before Mahony saw me and hallooed in answer. How my heart beat as he came running across the field to me! He ran as if to bring me aid. And I was penitent; for in my heart I had always despised him a little.
there's something great about this line, something so intimately human; but i suppose you could say that about all of joyce's work. it's framed like a throwaway line but it serves as the final line of the story and i can't help wondering about the significance of it. there's certain implications here that i'm just too groggy to figure out right now.

>>20398720 mentioned earlier that we'd see the theme of paralysis come up in every story in Dubliners. here it seems less obvious than the first, but the narrator seems to be tired of the paralytic monotony of everyday life, but also seems to be frozen in fear and uncertainty when the man walks away (to jerk off, presumably) and after he sits back down beside him and continues his monologue (under the effects of post-nut clarity, of course). so that was nice to see.

>>20388908
>Sinbad the Sailor and Tinbad the Tailor and Jinbad the Jailer and Whinbad the Whaler and Ninbad the Nailer and Finbad the Failer and Binbad the Bailer and Pinbad the Pailer and Minbad the Mailer and Hinbad the Hailer and Rinbad the Railer and Dinbad the Kailer and Vinbad the Quailer and Linbad the Yailer and Xinbad the Phthailer.

>>20404249
spoilers!!!!

>>20403396
>>20403414
Yes to be honest, I do think that it is unlikely that Joyce had an actual gay experience but I do think he at least contemplated one. I also do not think Joyce had a kind view of homosexuality. I actually have been thinking about writing this down into a full paper to share it easier. Perhaps I will and send it back here when I finish it.

There are a lot of passages I have as evidence but this one from Proteus is the most supportive


> His gaze brooded on his broadtoed boots, a buck’s castoffs, nebeneinander. He counted the creases of rucked leather wherein another’s foot had nested warm. The foot that beat the ground in tripudium, foot I dislove. But you were delighted when Esther Osvalt’s shoe went on you: girl I knew in Paris. Tiens, quel petit pied! Staunch friend, a brother soul: Wilde’s love that dare not speak its name. His arm: Cranly’s arm. He now will leave me. And the blame? As I am. As I am. All or not at all.

So a couple things here. First, he is looking at the shoes Mulligan gave him. I believe that Stephen and Joyce crave someone who they can truly confide in or be one with. I think Stephen feels as if women cannot do this and desires some spirit like Cranly. Perhaps he doesn’t even desire a physical homosexual relationship but “a brother soul” (Another reason perhaps he never actually had a gay experience) He dismisses Buck as a possible candidate and thinks of Esther Osvalt. At a first glance it seems stephen is thinking of a girl he played footies with in france. However why would Stephen remind himself that it was a girl, it seems out of place in a chapter full of unexplained things. Also who says the girls shoes (if she was a girl) was on her! Remember he started by thinking of Buck Mulligans shoes on him! This would mirror the cross dressing that Bloom imagines in Circe. Perhaps it was Esther who called his feet tiny. Then of course he thinks of Wilde’s love and Cranlys arm which links the “brother soul” to a more sexual and physical nature. Then he thinks that “He now will leave me” Perhaps this is Stephen again dismissing the idea of a homosexual relationship with Mulligan or in general. Some say the as I am as I am is a desire to be loved fully as himself but it could also be God as yahweh means “I am”.

So I definitely think joyce participated in at least some form of cross dressing and maybe a gay experience in attempt to again find someone who loves him for who he is fully. It is no secret he was sexually deviant. I do have more to say on it but maybe I will type it up to share more completely.

>>20404686
Too much reaching for me I think. It's a great theory if you ever write an essay on it though, I would definitely read it.

>>20404686
you're onto something with this! i'm amazed.
i hope to see deeper discussions about proteus when we actually get there.


>Some say the as I am as I am is a desire to be loved fully as himself but it could also be God as yahweh means “I am”.
This is good thinking! I'm sure it could mean both things at once, but I don't understand what "As Yahweh. As Yahweh. All or not at all" could mean. I'm sort of a dumbass, but (at the risk of digressing from the current novel) if you could elaborate on this, that'd be great.

>>20404949
So it could be just Joyce messing with the meaning to make it flow better in the prose. Also I think Joyce was heavily influenced by Spinoza, who is mentioned 3 times in Ulysses. Spinoza claimed that God was everything, which could be referenced in the last part. (all or not all) I actually think that Bloom is basically an embodiment of Spinoza’s ideology (Spinoza was also jewish). However I have another theory that the main character arc of Stephen is learning to incorporate some of the spinozist ideals of Bloom into his own life. So him referencing Spinoza now is a little out of place. Which makes me think that this is more a desire to be known fully rather than anything to do with God, but those are just some ideas [\spoiler]

>>20405740
that makes sense. i'm not very well-versed in philosophy; i don't know who spinoza was or what his ideology was, but i suppose he's someone i'll be learning more about when we start ulysses, hopefully.

>>20405869
>>20405740
I reccomend Aristotle and Aquinas. Joyce states they had the biggest influence on him; he certainly needed the art of rhetoric when defending a certain headcanon.....

>>20388908
No thanks i will not be participating

>>20406184
Why not? Get in here

>>20389532
why haven't you read the divine comedy?

>>20394455
i am sure that you can handle reading both simultaneously. do not fucking "drop moby dick for this"

>>20397949
kek

>>20401873
not enough literate in epic greek

>>20405964
ooh. what headcanon?!
Araby in ~15 minutes

I really enjoyed the last story.

>>20401882
Kek, the side characters in Joyce always seem more charismatic and cool than the protagonists. Mahony kind of reminds me of stately, plump Buck Mulligan. The character who single handedly got me to re-read Ulysses.

>>20402512
Kek
>>20402010
May be a midwit take, but I thought the green eyes were significant because they seem like the sort of thing pulp writers would give characters to make them seem exotic. I think the story is about disillusionment as not only do none of the sailors have green eyes, the only character who does is the pedophile they meet in the road.
>>20401882
>>20406790
>>20400129
You know something else I was thinking of regarding my point on Mahony, the last line >>20403414 brings up and the excellent point >>20403171 makes about adventure.
Maybe one of the reasons why the narrator "always despised [Mahony] a little," was that while the narrator seems trepid during the whole outing, Mahony fully embraces it. He's the one who chases the girls with the slingshot, who's the most crestfallen by the adventure ending, and who seems the least bothered by the pedophile.
The line
> I can see you are a bookworm like myself... he is different; he goes in for games
Also seems to hint at this.
In this reading, the story is less about the old pedophile and more about the boy's attitude for adventure. The narrator goes on one but doesn't take advantage of it, Mahony goes all in, and Joe Dillon avoids it preferring to read about them in stories.
I'm definitely Joe Dillon anons.

Just finished Araby, I definitely enjoyed reading that one. I liked his depiction of infatuation, it felt pretty accurate. I noticed there were two points where the narrator was ridiculed and not taken seriously by those above him; first when his uncle forgets that he wants to go to the bazaar, and second when the shopkeeper patronizes him. Maybe the second instance is a parallel for some sort of class disparity? I'm not familiar with Irish history. As to the last paragraph, my first reaction was that his anger was anger towards the fact that he doesn't really belong in the bazaar, but re-reading, it could be either anger towards his attempt to win Mangan's sister over with material objects, or perhaps the realization that his infatuation itself was based on vanity alone. I have no clue as to the significance of the house previously being owned by a dead priest, if it serves any purpose other than world building. I'm interested to hear what the more Joyce-familiar anons have to say about this one.

>>20407605
i saw it more as him being incredibly incredibly full of hatred for himself for having devoted himself to this futile, pointless, petty little task despite it seeming to have little to no importance to mangan's sister. he's blown up a throw-away remark about getting her something from the bazaar. he drowns himself in reveries and begins, to his own detriment with regard to academics (and to life in general), obsessing over the matter.
he thinks of himself as much more important, as taking up a larger part of mangan's sister's life than he actually does. he grows irritable when life throws itself in his path and makes things more difficult, and realizes that if his circumstances make even buying a trinket for a girl this hard, they will crush and grind him into fine dust in any case. he is doomed. this little failure whips him back to reality and has him realize the truth: he is not as important as he is, he is not thought of by others as much as he thinks of them, he is not going to have an easy life. he is doomed to struggling.

it sort of hits close to home for me, too. it's like when you fantasize about becoming famous through your writing. like stephen in proteus. lol.

sorry for the shitty formatting and poor grammar and dull descriptions. i've only just woken up

I'm reading along, and reading the thread, but might not post much because I'm not the brightest. Just wanted to encourage. That said the shift in the man in green's tone after his indecent act in 'An Encounter' is far more relatable than one would expect for something so old and for a character so initially and repulsively sanguine with his predilections. How many in a place like this hasn't masturbated to something, done something indecent at the will of their perversions, even in private, and tumbled immediately after into guilt and then anger. He went from warning wistfully of the duality of little girls, lust, release, and right into anger and punishment in record time.

Reading a book about a serial murderer and rapist same time as this, and it's mentioned generally those who imbibe in their deviance they've been building up—when they do it for the first time— have that sharp initial regret. Even the narcissism and antisocial tendencies bleed away from them for a moment into that guilt, and then they release anger, often physical, onto the victim or themselves right after. Joyce is so natural and honest with his writing I doubt he didn't pull this from some his own lustful regrets, as I've only read his brap letters before this and nothing else.

I'll definitely keep going with this best I can.

>>20406874
wait. you're right! disillusionment is what these stories have been all about so far. i'm >>20407670.
i can't believe that i hadn't noticed this—even after everybody'd been pointing it out so explicitly and frequently.
it's all been about disillusionment so far.
with the priest, with adventure, with romance and grand gestures and one's own vanity...
you're right, anon.

>>20407696
this is a great point, anon, and i encourage you to post more! your point is absolutely correct. it makes me wonder what a story that spelled out the old man's change in state as he masturbated would be like!
his shift in stance also represents disillusionment, in a way. he had an epiphany about boys with sweethearts while jerking off, i suppose. i know ot sounds funny but there's so so so many dimensions to this! wow. joyce is a genius. everything makes more and more sense the further we read. every story props every other story up!

>>20406579
We'll see when we get to Ulysses!
>>20406790
I like to think myself /lit/'s resident Gogarty scholar as well. The man was the closest Ireland has ever gotten to a Da Vinci, everything he wanted to do he was successful at: Surgeon, poetry, prose, pilot, politician, swimmer, cyclist, the list honestly goes on. A giant in Irish culture who has somewhow been forgotten.

Araby is one of the giants in Dubliners, it's only around 1800 words from memory yet it describes that innocent childhood infatuation brilliantly.
>But my body was like a harp and her words and gestures were like fingers running upon the wires.
Like music to my ears, what prose.
>She was waiting for us, her figure defined by the light from the half-opened door.
The latter quote adds on to what I said earlier about Joyce's view on women; we always seem to see women of any interested presented as something more ethereal, not of this world. The angelic description of the girl is just another example, she couldn't possibly be of this world and her intentions and personality remain ambigious to us. She a figure of worship for the boy who then goes on his own little quest to the oriental world of the Araby fair/market for her. I think the theme of freedom and adventure pops up here too, once again the idea of going to Araby and bringing back something for the girl is a very romantic notion (also a movement which Joyce loved himself) which falls flat on its face much like what I mentioned previously about the idea of freedom in An Encounter.
Paralysis shows its head here in the boys failure to get anywhere with his idea of going to Araby, he's in the same place he always was but the failure makes him angry and bitter, something a child really shouldn't be feeling but something they get used to in Dublin, much like Joyce was forced to get used to when his family's finances collapsed and forced him to leave Clongowes college; something a child should have no real understanding of has shaped their world view much earlier than it has any right to do.

>>20408041
great post, anon.
>Paralysis shows its head here in the boys failure to get anywhere with his idea of going to Araby, he's in the same place he always was but the failure makes him angry and bitter, something a child really shouldn't be feeling but something they get used to in Dublin, much like Joyce was forced to get used to when his family's finances collapsed and forced him to leave Clongowes college; something a child should have no real understanding of has shaped their world view much earlier than it has any right to do.
All of the stories so far have hit this sensitive spot inside of me, the place in your chest that swells up when you feel like you're going to cry. I'm very happy that I decided to start reading Dubliners. The feeling has grown stronger with each story, with each thematic strum. And your posts have been a great additon to these threads.

>>20389532
Pure bullshit. Odissey allusions are superficial bites. You can look for a chart and call it a day.

>>20408101
Just wait until you get to A Painful Case, A Little Cloud and The Dead old boy, those are the heaviest.

it's all coming together. i finally get the whole epiphany and paralysis thing. goddamn joyce is a genius. this isn't just a collection of short stories. it's a series of interconnected experiences that provide structure for each other. this is great. i'm genuinely astounded, re-reading the first three chapters over and over again.

hope to see more anons join in as we get further through the book.

Just finished Araby as well this morning at work. I think every boy has had an infatuation like this with an older girl of a friend or even a total stranger. You can tell Joyce wrote this when he was younger since he doesn't have even the command of prose he did during Portrait, but still, to see his prose at this level is still impressive. The man knew how to flex his strengths.
Anyways, about the piece, I really felt most aggravated about being let down by the uncle. I've felt this before too where important people in your life let you down when you need it most. And the pain of waiting hour after hour for an event you wish would just shut up and arrive already is very relatable. Someone somewhere once described him as a "very careful writer" and I think I'm beginning to see what they mean. He thinks and can communicate very clearly innocuous events that have happened to all of us, but that we never or rarely perceive as important or memorable.

>>20409245
I actually think he wrote this story around 1904/7, the majority of stories from Dubliners were written when he was 23 with the dead being written much later as you can tell his attitude has mellowed towards Dublin and Ireland

>>20389532
Nabokov said the Odyssey parallels are overblown in importance to understanding the text.

>>20409489
ooh. i just remembered there exist nabokov's lectures on ulysses. are those a valuable resource? i might add them to the OP next thread.

>>20409465
i think he rewrote some of them. the two sisters underwent a series of revisions, the final one being in 1914

>>20397949
I was about to say this lol

>>20409465
Yeah, you can tell he was younger. It's an inspiration to anyone writing, I'd think, because writers in their 20s will always compare themselves to the pinnacle of a writer's career when they're in their 40s or later. At least I do.
I'm getting more of a feel for Ireland than Dublin in particular, but it could be my poor visualization of the cityscape he describes.

>>20404249
Don't forget about Sneed the Feeder

>>20409586
Formerly Chuck the Fucker

Post the edition of Dubliners you are reading.

dubliners is the ultimate blackpill.

>>20409721
Have multiple editions, this is a cute little hardback though that references the William of Orange statue that used to be in Dublin and obviously the Dead.
>>20409770
That's an entry level take, Dubliners ends on a very positive note and there's really no blackpilling or nihilism in any of Joyce's works

>>20409721
This is the edition I'm using. I got it from my local library.

>>20406282
Because I'm a pleb who only recently got into reading fiction. I find non-fiction easier to read, specifically philosophy. I do plan to read most of the western canon, just not in a chronological order.

>>20410025
>I do plan to read most of the western canon, just not in a chronological order.
You know there isn't one single Western canon, anon? It isn't a monolith. And even if you follow one critic's list, it will inevitably change over the course of the time it takes to read, say, 150 books because there are new developments and new perspectives. Just read what you want. Stop falling for polemics and memes.

>>20410303
true. /lit/ will choke out your love for literature.
this thread is based though

can somone talk about joyce's prose and technique? what are some elements of his style we should be looking out for? thanks!

>>20410783
alliteration is a big one, another is the repetition of certain words for emphasis and create rhythm. When Joyce is in full flow it's almost like reading one of the epics in a funny coincidence.

>>20410819
There's a great section from Araby I read that I liked a lot. It had good alliteration.
>The career of our play brought us through the dark muddy lanes behind the houses where we ran the gantlet of the rough tribes from the cottages, to the back doors of the dark dripping gardens where odours arose from the ashpits, to the dark odorous stables where a coachman smoothed and combed the horse or shook music from a buckled harness.
Those repetitive D's are very nice here.

>>20408041
>who has somewhow been forgotten
Actually had no idea he had such an impressive career, myself. You know, one nice thing about Joyce using him was that it ensured his lasting memory. Buck Mulligan really takes over the first part of Ulysses.
>>20406874
Heh, you know I didn't even make the connection in the other stories, but I'd say you're right about the disillusionment anon. Both this and the other works, and Bazaar one all deal with school boys and some grim realization they come to about the real world.

>>20408041
>who has somewhow been forgotten
Actually had no idea he had such an impressive career, myself. You know, one nice thing about Joyce using him was that it ensured his lasting memory. Buck Mulligan really takes over the first part of Ulysses.
>>20407735
Heh, you know I didn't even make the connection in the other stories, but I'd say you're right about the disillusionment anon. Both this and the other works, and Bazaar one all deal with school boys and some grim realization they come to about the real world.

>Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.
Joyce has an incredible way of capturing feelings in ways that are both incredibly relatable and incredibly eloquent. I think the story reflects some of the foolishness a lot of us feel when we obsess over a person, only to find out later they don't care about you. Similar to what >>20407670 and >>20409245 said.
>>20407605
>class disparity
It might be relevant that the older gentlemen are said to have English accents. Could be a reflection on how England always put itself before Ireland at the expense of the Irish people.
>>20409721
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2814/2814-h/2814-h.htm
Wish I had kept my old college edition instead of selling it back to the bookstore.

Ah shit we're on a new story and I'm going to bed

Araby was good, I liked it. A lot of religious imagery in the procession through the first bazaar with his aunt. His second attempt at a pilgrimage fails completely, though I have no idea why thematically

The way Joyce frames Eveline's indecision and that last, final refusal to take a leap of faith is marvellous. Holy shit. It isn't anybody's fault either. Nobody's at fault here. Poor Eveline and poor Frank. Imagine how Frank must've felt. God.

>>20412572
>Actually had no idea he had such an impressive career, myself
In the 1936 book of Oxford Poetry he had more poems included than any other, he was insanely good, wipes the floor with anything Joyce did poetry wise.
>Eveline
Quite a simple story this but it's happened so many times in reality, not much to say about it really it speaks for itself.

For Ulysses and to a non-native english speaker, would you recommend reading the english version using a dictionary or the (slightly flawed) german translation?

>>20413383
They translated it into German? That's amazing to be honest. I would read it in German, for entertainment's sake at the very least.

All of these so far show a really sad yet tentative disappointment with older men in the society at the time. A bit similar to nowadays, but with less vitriol since they still seem to emit glimmers of adoration (Eveline's memory of her father making her toast, the uncle in 'Araby' ultimately letting the boy go to the bazaar despite forgetting; he even apologizes). An expectation is in the stories for them to come through and support the young, but they just dismiss them, or in worse cases like in 'An Encounter', they exploit their youth to feed their own needs.

>>20413634
this is a great observation. i'll make sure to look out for this in the chapters ahead!

>>20413396
yea but it’s flawed. some researchers spent 10 years on a revision which cannot be published due to copyright issues lmao
>imagine spending 10 years on this and noone will ever get to read it

>>20413634
What of an actual aesthetical value do things like that have in literature? I genuinely can't appreciate moral and social judgments in it, and as I see so far it's a common thing in Joyce, same for tons of allegories and references, useless in my opinion.

Or maybe I should've said poetic value, to be clear.

>>20414036
not tha anon, but it's failed for you then, perhaps.

>>20414049
What in particular is failed? Do you mean readings of Joyce or literature in general?

>>20414057
if you can't appreciate a work, then it's failed for you. it doesn't mean you're stupid or that joyce is a bad writer, by the way. just that you aren't in the cultural, political, social, personal, financial state to appreciate it. maybe later in life you might come to like a work that you had never understood. the opposite is true, too.

but i'm just a 4chan pseud. let one of the smarter fellas in this thread contribute with their opinions. i'd like to learn more

>>20389864
START WITH THE FUCKING GREEKS

>>20413172
I concur. I really sympathized with having a life of struggle with your family and seeing the things you knew from childhood be gradually replaced by the foreign. Even after the fights with her father she still loves him and remembers him fondly. You can tell she pitied her mother and wanted to do anything to avoid her fate. I think it is sad in the end that she decides to stay, but given her background, I don't think she was ever going to suddenly leave. The boys in her life are the ones who went on all the adventures. I think she had resigned(?) herself to a home-bound fate some time before she was aware of it herself.

>>20414036
Aesthetic to me I always presumed to be more technical beauty, like prose, which is the first thing I like about Joyce so far. It's my favorite thing about his writing and I only have read his brapfag letters before these four stories. I don't know if they're even meant as judgements; the older generation failing their children is a pretty common theme in storytelling. He could just be using it as observation, not judging the time or the people wholly. I mentioned the harsh regrets that men feel about their perversions a few posts ago, too, and that feels similar. They're something every usual person probably has experienced, so the relatability makes it more powerful. That increases the beauty of the work for a lot of people on a more selfish, personal level and elevates it I'd guess. A great author usually is great because he can disseminate those kinds of timeless themes into succinct emotion through his own unique words (Hemingway has both those sorts of themes/judgements/observations in his stories, too, but his execution is rather different). Then that makes the aesthetic value a lot more significant. It mixes with the great prose and sticks with you after from every angle.

Thing is Joyce is good enough—so far anyway—you can judge him from a bunch of critical angles and he holds up pretty well. I really am way too dumb to even try to answer the question I imagine, but what I wrote is more what I think personally about it.

Pure, clean aesthetic to me would be like Nabokov—there's a handful of stuff you can squeeze out of that lemon besides the prose but the poetic is the core. All stuff that Lolita thread right now is arguing about right now. I think people have different sensibilities in what they want from the writing like >>20414071 said and some aren't going to find worth in certain aspects of it at all. For instance I don't care too much about philosophical or literary references much, mostly because I'm not as well read as I'd like and I'd completely miss them in most cases. Different natures.

>>20414071
>>20414421
Thank you. I guess all of it may be true. I actually more appreciate literature that accents the poetics itself, which often refers to some little and fleeting sensations, like in Baudelaire's prose, for example. And it may well be the personal "state" or the "nature".

>>20414607
stick around, though, anon. joyce is very poetic in his prose. i'm sure you'll acquire a taste for his work as we go on!!

>>20414663
I read the three first stories, but they didn't impress me. I took a look at A Portrait too and it at least looks promising, so maybe I will stick around silent for the time you come to A Portrait and go with it, as I think I will no longer participate in the discussion of Dubliners, though I didn't actually participate at all.

>>20414732
Portrait has plenty of memorable prose sections, especially in his epiphany and extended metaphor lines. I'm sure I'll be posting my favorites plenty of times over.

today's been a slow day so far.

>>20410303
Was referring to Harold Bloom's list of books that comprise the Western Canon. I get your point though, it's hard to enjoy a book when there's a nagging feeling that you aren't following the relevant chart.

Bump

>>20415234
last story was a bit tame and plenty of news distractions as of late probably pick up soon

>>20413237
Wonder if he really felt inadequate next to him the way Stephen does with Buck Mulligan.
>>20413634
Excellent point anon. Might be relevant given the history Joyce himself seemed to have with his own father.
>>20413172
It's wonderful anon, but the thing that really hit home for me was the scene before that where she's remembering her childhood and the way her family has fallen apart. It's pretty hard for me to read about since it reminds me of my own family dynamics.

Here's a question anons, do you think Eveline made the right choice? Or, if in her position, would you make the same choice?
I think Joyce is trying to make a larger point here about the Irish people's inability to branch out or explore the larger world because of their ties to tradition, so he might say she made the wrong one. I know personally, though, I would never be able to live with myself if I thought I abandoned my responsibilities to them. I couldn't stand the guilt, and I love them too much.

As an aside, I'm loving Dubliners with every more and more with every story. Really wish I had appreciated this more in college. Thanks for organizing OP.

>>20417429
>do you think Eveline made the right choice? Or, if in her position, would you make the same choice?
If my family was abusive to me and I knew I was the only one there to protect two kids from a bad dad, some part of me says I'd be a hero and stay there. Another part of me says I'd try to get dad away or move the kids elsewhere, then leave him to his devices. But I really don't know. I'm blessed to have a good family.
>I think Joyce is trying to make a larger point here about the Irish people's inability to branch out or explore the larger world because of their ties to tradition, so he might say she made the wrong one. I know personally, though, I would never be able to live with myself if I thought I abandoned my responsibilities to them. I couldn't stand the guilt, and I love them too much.
Same here. I don't know much about his commentary, but since he lived in Ireland and I didn't, I'll take his word for it.

I just finished After the Race. I think it was a really lovely piece exploring the joy in victory, especially in youth. In trying to read deeper into it, and I'm not good at this but I'll try anyways, I'm wondering if Joyce was trying to show Ireland as a young man whose money habits and general personality are a result of upbringing and proximity to the richer nations. We can see the father as a successful "by the bootstraps" man who helps Jimmy out during his college years and introduces him to the Frenchmen. I'm wondering if this is old England? He is respectful of the Hungarian because of his foreign accomplishments and general foreign nationality, but previously it's implied that he's looked down on for being poor.
This makes me wonder what the subtext of the story really says, since it ends with Jimmy getting all his money taken by his gambling friends. England bests France; America and Ireland lose the hardest. Hungary just fucks off and lets them play for the night, having no interest in the game. Reading the end again, Jimmy thinks he has a night to regret his folly and the dark stupor (of sleep) will help, but then he learns it's already morning. Maybe now he realizes he's been foolish with his money and frittered it away on something silly again, and somehow this ties into Ireland, but I can't tell.

It could also be that Joyce wanted to write a story of four dudes who place well in a car race going out to celebrate and have a ball together.

>>20394199
>my Joyce autism knows no bounds
>but I haven't read fw
At least read some of it

>>20417759
yeah i think this is an allegory. you're absolutely right!

>post my thoughts
>get ignored

Guess I'll just keep enjoying Joyce by myself

>>20413172
>>20414399
>>20417429
Am I the only one who didn't think much at all of Eveline's "choice"? The last line just made it unbelievable someone could have such a complete change of heart so completely, even if the entire store is dedicated to her trepidation towards leaving. It just wasn't convincing. It's the only one so far that hasn't landed with me.

>>20417411
Oh he did, absolutely. Joyce's love was always poetry and the fact it came so easy to Gogarty had him really annoyed. Gogarty was also loved by everybody and was a great speaker and socialiser compared to Joyce too. They fell out because Joyce took a joke too seriously but Gogarty tried again and again to make amends and always praised Joyce, even going as far as saying Portrait was the finest piece of literature he had ever read. Joyce was too stubborn to make amends but did worry when Gogarty was in a plane crash referring to him as BM in a letter and when Joyce died the book beside him in the hospital was Gogarty's "I walk with St. Patrick".

>>20418074
I have, I mean in a one full run, analysing it. I've even studied small sections of it and have a few ideas for essays on it. I just haven't actually read the whole thing and instead been picking from the outside.

>After the Race
The themes of this still ring true today. Ireland still desperately tries to act like its one of the big boys but comes up looking desperate or foolish. The Celtic Tiger being one from the governments end and from Irish people you still have this dying need to be recognised by other countries. Take any example of a celebrity merely hinting at Ireland and we act like a child that has had its drawing put on the fridge. Take as well our undying obsession with the British and our need to blame them on absolutely everything. We have an inferiority complex towards them that still exists strongly among the youth today. It's a bit sad really reading this story and then knowing, 108 years later Ireland still as a nation and culture has failed to flourish the way Joyce wanted us to.

>>20418422
>>20417429
In her shoes I would have stuck around until the kids she were caring for were of age and then sought out a husband or left. Her quality as a youth would have been diminished, since she sounds about 21, but I don't think it'd be difficult to find alternatives. And her father was kind of right; sailors are questionable options for a secure lifestyle no matter how ethereal and gallant Frank seemed.

As for it resonating or not at the end, I think it makes sense she'd stay for the two kids (I assumed this is Ernest's offspring left after he died, as she says her and her siblings were "all grown up" but it's never clarified) and because of the promise she made to her dying mother. That's despite the anxiety attack when she remembers her mother's illness and death. That said the whole story wasn't as good as the last three for me but I enjoyed it. "After the Race" I'm not as huge a fan, but Joyce's writing is pleasant enough to forgive a lot of the unfamiliar experiences, ideas, and themes that come along. For instance >>20417759 's and
>>20418470 's breakdown makes me realize pretty clearly it's an allegory for the state of the respective countries mixed with just a good night out with the boys. I would have missed the allegory part without looking elsewhere or reading a second time maybe; went right over my dumb head.

>>20389532
As if someone could read the Divine commedy in anything other than Italian.

>>20418387
oh man, anon. sorry! which post was yours? to me it seems like every post so far has received a reply.

>>20418442
That's heartbreaking. Gogarty sounds like a chill dude who just wanted a friend. I haven't read any of Joyce's poetry. Does it have significant impact on his prose?

>>20419449
Gogarty was a very popular and funny bastard, Joyce just couldn’t handle the craic. I think his best prose is definitely near poetry in terms of flow but I think he kept the two separate

i love joyce! i love joyce!

Dubliners discussion is slow, but Portrait should pick things up.

>>20421438
yeah

Bump. Hold on niggas.

>>20418992
I'd forgotten about the ending the first time through and I was actually trying to remember if Frank abandons her. To be honest, I don't think she was going to have many other options after Frank. By the time the kids would be grown, she'd probably be well into her thirties. I guess I can't say for sure, but I imagine it would have been difficult for a woman that age in Ireland in the early twentieth century to find a partner.
>>20417759
>good family
Guess I could feel a little differently is my family was less supportive as well. Either way, the kids are the big thing making me think she did the right thing by staying.
>>20418422
I think the story reflects that feeling you might have where you come up with a wild plan that totally goes against what you normally do and don't follow through. You may think you'll do it up to the last second, but at that last second the doubts hold you back.
>>20418442
Dang, didn't know they were that close he would've tried to make amends and Joyce would've kept up with his goings on.

I think the other anons are spot on with the story being about Ireland being inferior in some ways to other nations, so I'll just add this story kind of reminded me of The Sun Also Rises or The Great Gatsby in the way it depicts a party that seems less fun the farther back you look at it.
>>20417759
>>20418470
I'm actually a little ashamed I didn't pick up on the similarities between Jimmy's character and Ireland's place in the world. It is interesting in that context, though, that the American is also somewhat of a loser as by the end of the century the U.S.A. would be the dominant world power.

OP here. I've been a little busy with school so I haven't been able to contribute as much lately. But I wanted to thank you all so much for keeping the thread going!

Joyce said about Two Gallants:
>"to omit the story from the book would really be disastrous. It is one of the most important stories in the book. I would rather sacrifice five of the other stories (which I could name) than this one."
I think the harp is, again, a metaphor for Ireland, who is being exploited and humiliated by her masters.
I really like this phrase:
>. . . the stern task of living . . .
Lenehan's change in demeanor is done beautifully. I'm a dimwit, but I think we should study the transition between these paragraphs:
>He became serious and silent when he had said this. His tongue was tired for he had been talking all the afternoon in a public-house in Dorset Street. Most people considered Lenehan a leech but, in spite of this reputation, his adroitness and eloquence had always prevented his friends from forming any general policy against him. He had a brave manner of coming up to a party of them in a bar and of holding himself nimbly at the borders of the company until he was included in a round. He was a sporting vagrant armed with a vast stock of stories, limericks and riddles. He was insensitive to all kinds of discourtesy. No one knew how he achieved the stern task of living, but his name was vaguely associated with racing tissues.
and
>He walked listlessly round Stephen's Green and then down Grafton Street. Though his eyes took note of many elements of the crowd through which he passed they did so morosely. He found trivial all that was meant to charm him and did not answer the glances which invited him to be bold. He knew that he would have to speak a great deal, to invent and to amuse, and his brain and throat were too dry for such a task. The problem of how he could pass the hours till he met Corley again troubled him a little. He could think of no way of passing them but to keep on walking. He turned to the left when he came to the corner of Rutland Square and felt more at ease in the dark quiet street, the sombre look of which suited his mood. He paused at last before the window of a poor-looking shop over which the words Refreshment Bar were printed in white letters. On the glass of the window were two flying inscriptions: Ginger Beer and Ginger Ale. A cut ham was exposed on a great blue dish while near it on a plate lay a segment of very light plum-pudding. He eyed this food earnestly for some time and then, after glancing warily up and down the street, went into the shop quickly.
The mood sort of darkens throughout the story, from them having a seemingly lighthearted (but very important thematically) conversation about women to the end, where it is found that they've been exploiting her in some way. By the way, it's ironic to say that the mood "darkens," considering the last "shot" in the story is a gold coin shining in lamplight.
Obviously the title is an ironic prod at the two men. They aren't gallants. They're vagrants, more like.
Tell me what you guys think!

Will read the new story in the morning at work. Had to work on a script tonight.

bumpin'. i wanted to remind everyone that the last chapter is much longer than the rest at 16,000 words, so set aside an hour or so on the 4th of june!

what was the coin at the end supposed to represent?

>>20423669
Aw shit. Let me at this big boy

Just finished Two Gallants. I feel for Lenehan. I can't tell if there's some repressed feelings for Corley and I didn't see any parallels with Ireland or Irish culture there.
It's funny to see Corley lament that he only ever got laid by one girl after taking girls out to plays, paying for trams and chocolates and dinners, much like the modern dating scene. But suddenly he's swimming in pussy once he goes after overworked maids who just want easy, fast, and hard.
I couldn't tell because the intentions were nebulous, but I think Corley wanted to go steady with the girl he saw that night. And the gold coin was a promise for chastity until marriage? Maybe? It definitely has traditional meaning.
So the harp features twice in this story. Irish coins were minted with harps on them until the 1820s, after which British coins were used until the Irish Free State started printing them in the late 1920s. Since Dubliners was written before then, it's safe to assume the girl gave Corley an old Irish coin from before the political union of Ireland and Britain. As to its true meaning, I'm open to discussion about that.

>>20424816
>Irish coins were minted with harps on them until the 1820s
very astute observation, anon! do you suppose that both the harp and the girl represent two entities, one being ireland and the other being women as a whole, being exploited?

>>20424816
Damn, Lenehan is in Dubliners? I'm reading Ulysses right now and Lenehan is kind of an asshole in it.

>>20424871
or do you think the girl giving him the gold coin represents her selling ireland out (somehow)? i'm just throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks at this point

>This vision made him feel keenly his own poverty of purse and spirit. He was tired of knocking about, of pulling the devil by the tail, of shifts and intrigues. He would be thirty-one in November. Would he never get a good job? Would he never have a home of his own? He thought how pleasant it would be to have a warm fire to sit by and a good dinner to sit down to. He had walked the streets long enough with friends and with girls. He knew what those friends were worth: he knew the girls too. Experience had embittered his heart against the world. But all hope had not left him. He felt better after having eaten than he had felt before, less weary of his life, less vanquished in spirit. He might yet be able to settle down in some snug corner and live happily if he could only come across some good simple-minded girl with a little of the ready.
This part certainly stung a bit. A little too close to home.

>>20424878
That's a thought too. I think it's important to try to read the subtext of these stories but not project anything possible onto the actual text. I might just not be well read enough in history to know what he's alluding to here.
>>20425350
Same here. The listlessness of my 20s has lent itself some wondering about if I'll ever settle down, buy a house, make it in the American dream sense. I'm sure Joyce was drawing on his own worries when he wrote this.

>>20425350
great passage

>>20424875
Why are you reading Ulysses without having read Dubliners?

>>20425753
he's a heretic

>>20424875
spoilers!!!

This is one of the stories I remember quite well from my college reading. Something my teacher brought up which I always think of is that Curley's behavior not only lweads to other women becoming prositututes, he's sort of a prostitute himself since he's essentially trading his sexual favors for money.
As always, I'm struck re-reading this at how well Joyce captures human feelings which seem almost indescribable so well.
>>20422837
I remember my teacher mentioning that same quote when we studied this in college. Apparently the publishers wanted to cut it out but Joyce insisted on it staying.
Regarding the change in tone, I thought it was brilliant as well. I actually think it did a wonderful job of turning this slimy roach Lenehan into a character we can actually sympathize with. He's a roach, but there's a sense he has no other options in life but to be one.
>>20424539
>>20424816
Regarding the gold coin, the girl Corley was seducing stole the coin for him. Something significant my teachers also brought up which makes Corley's behavior much more nefarious is that if the family the girl worked for found out she was stealing, she would've likely been fired and forced to become a prostitute. Seems to have happened with that first girl Curley described.
>>20425350
I really felt for him when he talked about being exhausted from having to put on a jovial appearance all the time.

>>20427354
> Something significant my teachers also brought up which makes Corley's behavior much more nefarious is that if the family the girl worked for found out she was stealing, she would've likely been fired and forced to become a prostitute. Seems to have happened with that first girl Curley described.
oh my gosh, that makes so much sense! wow. thanks, anon

Bump. I need to visit Ireland again. I loved Cork the one time I went.

>She would put an end to herself, she said. He comforted her feebly, telling her not to cry, that it would be all right, never fear. He felt against his shirt the agitation of her bosom. It was not altogether his fault that it had happened. He remembered well, with the curious patient memory of the celibate, the first casual caresses her dress, her breath, her fingers had given him. Then late one night as he was undressing for bed she had tapped at his door, timidly. She wanted to relight her candle at his for hers had been blown out by a gust. It was her bath night. She wore a loose open combingjacket of printed flannel. Her white instep shone in the opening of her furry slippers and the blood glowed warmly behind her perfumed skin. From her hands and wrists too as she lit and steadied her candle a faint perfume arose.
Love the prose. Wow.

>tfw forgot to post about Two Gallants yesterday
Shameful
>Boarding House
The attitudes of this story still ring true today in different ways. The controlling mother over the daughter and the worry of having the neighbours gossip is a constant fear in Ireland. Paralysis shows its head once again in the girl and the father (forget his name, all from memory) being stuck under this matriarch of a woman. It's tempting to bring comparisons to Queen Vic but she would have been dead for a few years by the time this story was written. One of the weaker entries in the book along with "A Mother".

bump, today's slow too, but we'll pick the pace up once we get to portrait!

>>20428879
I highlighted this passage as well. Joyce has been a master at implications with his writing so far while not being explicit. You read that passage and you know on even a base level of manhood what happened or what was going to happen. He also does it expertly with the pedophile in "An Encounter" and with the boy in "Araby". He presents just the right idyllic or somber instance to let you know everything while saying as little as possible. Reminds me of Hemingway and iceberg theory, but this has a lot more nuance; a magician's subtlety in illusion instead of the blunt, militant negation Hemingway produced much of the time.

>>20427354
>...the coin...

I'm been puzzling over the significance of that for years, decades, in fact -- thanks.

>>20430036
exactly. he's very minimalistic, in a way.
> master at implications
i have always wanted to IMPLY the way joyce does, and as we've been progressing with dubliners i find my thoughts growing clearer and i feel more confident in my ability to hint at things now, in a single, elaborate stroke. i'm learning a lot.

>>20428269
>>20430057
I'll be honest, I might not have gotten it myself were it not for my teacher telling me so thank you Professor A----.

>>20430069
>implying

>>20429050
>controlling mother
I think it's easy to see the mother as the villain in this story, but I read her more as a survivor. If the daughter has a baby out of wedlock then any aspirations she has for the future are down the drain. The mother's working within a restrictive system to ensure her girl and her unborn son have a future in the same way she had to work to escape her abusive husband. To me, the story reads mostly as a critique of that social system in Ireland.

>>20430936
:(
>>20430164
God bless Professor A----.
>>20431064
I liked the mother too. She seemed fair, albeit a little harsh.

I thought Boarding House was actually pretty uplifting. Consider Mr Doran for a second. He's in his mid thirties, past his wild twenties where he's fucking everything that moves. He's got a little money, a good job, and he's starting to settle down a bit. He knows the boarding house has a reputation as a place where you can get laid easily, and he knows his own family would look down on Polly if he marries her. He even thinks that Mrs Mooney is setting him up with Polly just to ship her daughter out of the house. You can tell he's annoyed with the whole thing too, especially in the line "...the agitation of her bosom." We've all felt annoyed enough that we don't want to be touched, not even by the girls we love. He doesn't want to get married; he wants to keep living single and free and having flings. I don't think he understands that it will become lonely after some time.
What I also notice is that Doran is very focused on what other people think of him; it's a very European mindset, to my understanding. Coming from an American perspective of independence and "fuck the man", this is a hard thing for me to grasp. You can see him trying to justify it by thinking about their good times. He has doubts, such as at the end of his passage when he thinks about how Jack nearly beat up an artist for saying something about Polly, and as a man, I know Doran is wondering if he really loves Polly since he didn't feel that kind of reaction to the comment like Jack did.
It should be safe to say that Doran proposes and they marry. I think Doran is at a point in his life where he's holding on to a lot of what raised him: the opinions of others, his church and his service to his job, all his friends from his twenties and his wild ideals, and now is the perfect time for him to break away from all that and establish a new road for himself. If Polly is a tart and people talk bad about her, then he can change into Jack and pop someone in the mouth. To hell with his family; he's got money. I think Doran makes the right decision in the end and has a bright future ahead.

>>20431862
Bob Doran shows up again in Ulysses as a raging alcoholic, so I wouldn't say he has a bright future ahead.

>>20432879
Awww fucking shit mother fucking God dammit fuck

>>20432879
I haven't read Ulysses yet, but Boarding House seems to imply he was already an alcoholic, from his tremors when shaving, the mention of delirium during his rendezvous, and his glancing at the guy carrying the beer up the stairs. They actually refer to alcohol a couple times in reference to the house itself. I meant to mention this yesterday but forgot about it until I read your reply.

>He watched the scene and thought of life; and (as always happened when he thought of life) he became sad. A gentle melancholy took possession of him. He felt how useless it was to struggle against fortune, this being the burden of wisdom which the ages had bequeathed to him.
How many times have I looked forlorn out a window or at a wall or empty space and thought about life and felt a deep melancholy like this?
>He remembered the books of poetry upon his shelves at home. He had bought them in his bachelor days and many an evening, as he sat in the little room off the hall, he had been tempted to take one down from the bookshelf and read out something to his wife. But shyness had always held him back; and so the books had remained on their shelves. At times he repeated lines to himself and this consoled him.
I empathize with this desire to share, but not wanting to be a bother.
>He was not sure what idea he wished to express but the thought that a poetic moment had touched him took life within him like an infant hope.
>goes on to daydream about local greatness
Every artist knows this feeling. Painter or poet, you see a scene and instantly want to capture it in your medium. And then you dream about being asked about your work and being talked about.

This was an intensely sad story for me. Unhappiness and discontent in a daily life is simply soul crushing. At the end with Chandler was with the baby I understood and felt his pain and dissatisfaction. I even understood his shout. He's trapped in a life he wished he wasn't living. He has a poet's sensitivity but a normie life, and those simply can't mix. He envies Gallaher and even thinks less of him because of his upbringing and birth, yet who is the one feeling like a jackass in the end? Very sad story.

A Little Cloud is an amazing story. I rank it just behind The Dead in terms of pure quality. The story shows something none of us even want to entertain: Ruining the one chance we have in our lives to follow our dreams. One could say that comparison is the thief of joy and that would also be a valid point; Little Chandler has a son and a wife and is financially stable, something rare back then. He has however, failed to do the one thing he has always wanted to do and that's to be a writer. Seeing his old friend come back with airs and graces and being a completely different from what his roots were sickens him from jealousy but he presents it as Gallaher losing his way; classic crabs in a bucket mentality that Joyce has caught here, something we Irish still suffer from. Anybody wanting to improve their lives to the point it invokes envy in others they are accused of having "notions". This is where the paralysis comes in, we don't let anybody move on lest they suffer socially, ostracised from society for not living their lives in near poverty. It's honestly quite a sad story when you live through it yourself or have seen it happen. I would almost compare it to Dostoevsky in the manner Joyce delves into the phsycological aspects of Little Chandler.
Joyce mentions this more in Portrait so I won't delve into it lest I spoil some sections of the book.

A Little Cloud is for me best story so far. Chandler is way too relatable with many of us, but in a way that we don't want to. It is so easy for a human to become grounded and have his dreams being shattered because of prior decisions that have established how the rest of his life will go. Now the only thing that's left are dreams, poetry books on shelf he read in his youth, a friend who achieved what you now can't. And as Gallaher may see Chandler as a happily married person and a father, but can't see his real problems he's hiding beneath, it can also be the opposite case with Chandler's view on Gallaher. Problems and dreams, that's what we all have, and that's what really make us human

>>20434966
>It is so easy for a human to become grounded and have his dreams being shattered because of prior decisions that have established how the rest of his life will go
This is what keeps me up at night more than anything else. Not my blog but I'm mid twenties, no gf, adjusted with a stable job, and taking my writing very seriously this year. I want to have a family someday so I can have children but I dread going into it for the wrong reasons, and in turn, giving up my dream of writing. It's such a priority to me that I know or want to believe that I'll always keep chasing it even if I never make it. Sometimes I worry that will preclude me from ever having kids and letting my family down in the process. My parents say they don't care, but I think they do.
A Little Cloud in this sense is a manifestation of my worst nightmare: seeing someone else live the life I wish I was living, exploring the world, being bohemian and free, while I'm stuck in one place watching my life crumble in my hands. You can tell that Chandler doesn't even like his wife that much; it's why I've put off marriage for so long myself. You don't marry pussy. You marry the brain and person attached to it, so you better pick the right one.
I'll be reading this story a lot over the course of my life, I feel, if for nothing else than a refresher of how bad it could be.

Likely my favorite story so far. I imagine that's the case for most of us in here—"Araby" and "A Little Cloud" hit the confused gutwork of disillusioned boys and men and what it's like to suffer with your brain working outside the comfortable spectrums of normality. What it's like to discover that life works unfavorably and often in ways counter to your aspirations.

>>20435214
>You can tell that Chandler doesn't even like his wife that much; it's why I've put off marriage for so long myself. You don't marry pussy. You marry the brain and person attached to it, so you better pick the right one

That passage is brutal but incredibly well written. I'm an old loner, but even I could feel the absolute soul-crushing aura coming from the prose.

>He looked coldly into the eyes of the photograph and they answered coldly. Certainly they were pretty and the face itself was pretty. But he found something mean in it. Why was it so unconscious and ladylike? The composure of the eyes irritated him. They repelled him and defied him: there was no passion in them, no rapture. He thought of what Gallaher had said about rich Jewesses. Those dark Oriental eyes, he thought, how full they are of passion, of voluptuous longing !... Why had he married the eyes in the photograph?

>"Everything in Paris is gay,"

this story wringed out my soul. if i was to experience a single degree more of fear and dread and helplessness and sadness and misery right now, i would collapse onto the floor. i had to lie down after reading this. it feels as though someone has dug their fingers into my chest, grabbed my sternum and shaken me about.

>>20433744
>And then you dream about being asked about your work and being talked about.
i pretend i'm on talk shows for my work all the time. maybe i'm mentally ill.
doesn't stephen daedalus do the same thing, though?
>>20434210
>>20434966
>>20435214
>>20435338
all great, great posts, everyone. thanks for your analyses and your contributions to the thread!
i'm going to have to think very carefully about the future now, lest i end up like chandler. i'm 18 and i hate everything about what i'm doing right now at college; it feels as if my fate has been carved into steel, and nothing i can do now will change it.
marriage, too; i am so afraid of romance and love and having to open myself up to a partner, not because i'm afraid of commitment, but because i feel like i'll have to resign myself to the fact that i'm going to have to pretend to be someone else forever, and i feel bad for whomever i marry. she does not deserve a partner who is as fraudulent and detestable as i am.
gonna have to calm myself down.
can't believe joyce has done this to me.

bump.

>>20435589
>i'm 18 and i hate everything about what i'm doing right now at college; it feels as if my fate has been carved into steel, and nothing i can do now will change it.
I'm a few years your elder and I'll tell you now that if you want to do this literature thing you're on the right path. No clue what you're studying now, but starting here early is a good thing. If you don't like what you're studying, change it, but keep a view of the long game as well. College is 100% a mindset machine. It prepares your mindset for whatever field you'll go work in. You'll start a job as a coder or engineer or whatever and realize you don't know beans from buckshot about anything you studied, but you do know how to learn it again.
The simple thing to remember is to do things when you're ready for them and be authentic to yourself. Don't marry the first girl that sucks your dick or lets you creampie. Think long term about her mindset, her personality, what she wants out of life. You need a guarantee that where she is going is where you want to go, too. Being authentic is harder. You just have to know what you like and what you want. This comes with time more than anything else. I didn't know anything at 18 and I know in 7 years I'll look back and say I didn't know anything now then either. But if you like something, you like it. If you want to change something, change it for yourself. You don't have to be alpha Chad god thundercock McMan about it, but you have to have a purpose and direction in yourself even if it's vague. The male energy is forward and outward.
Time is your most valuable tool and everyone wants a piece of it. Always have a slice carved out for yourself and never give it up. You'll have to pick your priorities and turn down stuff or hobbies you want to piddle with because they're not a high priority (right now). And those priorities will change too with time. It comes into a balance, then you want something else, so you just adjust your priorities. It's easy and uncomplicated if you make it so.
Anyways yeah, Joyce has a way with capturing these things real well. It's inspired me to attempt more careful writing.

>>20435589
>>20436163
Being in my late 30s and having gone through many similar issues—as well as still trying to get ahead with my writing—I can say the most important thing is to be genuine. Pretending to be something you're not kills you. It does it slowly, and softly, but it catches up to you. Just be pragmatic and honest to the best of your abilities; with women or work or anything else. And read plenty of good books to keep yourself steady and inspired.

Bump. We're on Counterparts now

Just finished A Little Cloud. Much like everyone else, I also felt I related a little too uncomfortably with Little Chandler, but I'll point out one passage in particular that got to me. When Little Chandler loses his temper with the baby after she keeps him from reading it reminded me of all the times the dog our family got a year and a half ago has kept me from writing. I've never shouted at him like Chandler does, but I've definitely wanted to at times and there's always this horrific shame that comes with it.
>>20431178
Yeah, the mother was pretty fair (and Dr. A---- was excellent).
>>20435544
You're not alone anon, don't worry. Clearly other anons are feeling the same thing so it's not as desperate as you think.
>>20435338
>>20434966
>>20434210
>>20433744
I wouldn't say it's my favorite, but I think it's one of the best stories so far. Joyce had left Dublin by the time of its publication so I wonder if there was a particular person in his life like Little Chandler who seemed envious of his decision or if part of it was Joyce trying to justify his decision?
>>20435589
>i'm going to have to pretend to be someone else forever
That's honestly what has turned me off from finding a partner recently. I never feel like I can be myself around women and I don't want to spend my life faking things.

I'm sure holiday is slowing us down. The ending to this was something else. This was my favorite passage from the story, however:

>A very sullen-faced man stood at the corner of O’Connell Bridge waiting for the little Sandymount tram to take him home. He was full of smouldering anger and revengefulness. He felt humiliated and discontented; he did not even feel drunk; and he had only twopence in his pocket. He cursed everything. He had done for himself in the office, pawned his watch, spent all his money; and he had not even got drunk. He began to feel thirsty again and he longed to be back again in the hot reeking public-house. He had lost his reputation as a strong man, having been defeated twice by a mere boy. His heart swelled with fury and, when he thought of the woman in the big hat who had brushed against him and said Pardon! his fury nearly choked him.

Bump

My least favorite story of the collection so far. Not to say that it was in any way bad, it just didn't affect me so much. My dad beat me under different circumstances.

>>20438141
>>20436956
>>20436163
thank you, everyone.
haven't read counterparts. today's been busy. i'll catch up tomorrow.

bump

>>20441080
It's not my favorite but I found some relatability in it—the boss and the stressful job is one. And having been raised by a single mother, I know too well about an incensed parent letting out all their inadequacies with a switch or a belt on the nearest representation of their frustrations. For a single mom it's a young son that reminds her of the man who ditched her. For Farrington it was youth and freedom in general and his son was the easiest target.

Is this read along a preparation for a read along of Finnegans Wake

>>20442232
I think the aim is to go through all of Joyce in order. So Dubliners, Portrait, Ulysses, then Finnegans if we get that far.

Like a lot of stories in Dubliners, I think this story shows how a problem in the city--fathers beating their kids--comes about. I don't know if there's anything ground breaking here, but Joyce does an incredible job at humanizing Farrington while not excusing his actions.
>>20442203
I'm sorry about your dad anon. I also couldn't relate to the kid, but fortunately for me it's because my parents were never abusive. I'd hate to say I related more to Flaherty, but I could at least understand his frustration of having come from a long night thinking it was entirely wasted.

>>20442321
>>20442232
I'll stick with you as long as I can anons, but I don't know if I'll make it through Finnegans.

>>20443106
What's wrong with Finnegans Wake, pal?

>>20443181
Nothing, I actually want to read it and might even enjoy a re-a-long. The only problem is, I don't know if I'll have time and the energy after re-reading Dubliners, and reading Portrait, and finishing my re-read of Ulysses. That's a lot of Joyce.

It's always sad for me to hear about fathers beating their children. I know I'm a day behind right now but I just wanted to put that out there.

>Counterparts
Nothing quite like being showed up constantly and taking your anger out on you wee boy is there? He reminds me a bit of the Underground man in a way, in his constant attempts to appear superior he only hurts himself and then takes it out on his son the same way the Underground man berated that prostitute. I'm starting to see potential for a Joyce/Dostoevsky essay.
>Clay
I wonder will many get this one, even Irish people are that removed to how it used to be it's hard to see. The affluent Anglo-Irish and the salt of the earth Catholic working class, mingling together. I would like to imagine this was Joyce showing how the wheel was turning and the previous segregation of the two communities was ending; in this period we already had a lot of talk of a "new Irish" coming around, a mix of the two communities, the next step in evolution as it were of the two. I'm probably reaching here but I think it's interesting to think about. Especially for people who Remember what [Spoiler] Stephen and Cranly were discussing about "The New Gael" in Portrait [/Spoiler]

>>20441096 here!
read counterparts finally. sorry for the delay. i promised i'd catch up, though!
>dark wine-coloured
i like it when you see these very subtle references to other authors' works. wine-coloured. i wonder if this was deliberate? david foster wallace references ulysses in infinite jest (although i mean he references hamlet too) by mentioning the "scrotum-tightening cold." i don't know. it's really cool. it's like sampling music.
>The man stared fixedly at the polished skull which directed the affairs of Crosbie & Alleyne, gauging its fragility.
>He longed to execrate aloud, to bring his fist down on something violently.
>All the indignities of his life enraged him.
>The barometer of his emotional nature was set for a spell of riot.
all great lines. these capture precisely the state of my emotions as of late
>the retort was after the manner of the liberal shepherds in the eclogues
can someone who has read virgil talk about this? thanks!
>Weathers protesting that the hospitality was too Irish.
i don't have much to say about this line, but that i noticed it, and that i appreciate it. for some reason, this particular line brought about this epiphany of sorts, that joyce is a very natural and very talented writer.
>Farrington gazed admiringly at the plump arm
one thing i love about older works is that they make me consider and view beauty and aesthetics in new ways, ways that i hadn't before. i've always wondered why nobody writes about arms (t.s eliot's prufrock does this, IIRC) the way they write about legs and lips and all. we have to look at beauty and think about beauty and ponder beauty a lot more profoundly than we do, i think.
>"You're not to put the weight of your body behind it. Play fair," he said.
lmao
>The trial began again. The veins stood out on Farrington's forehead, and the pallor of Weathers' complexion changed to peony. Their hands and arms trembled under the stress.
i love this line. the pallor of his complexion changed to peony. wow. this is extremely, extremely good.
>His wife was a little sharp-faced woman who bullied her husband when he was sober and was bullied by him when he was drunk.
i like joyce's sense of humour. this is framed very well. it's also a very sad line. joyce has very very DENSE prose, i've observed.
>He clasped his hands together in the air and his voice shook with fright.
goddamnit. my heart trembled at this line, too. i love joyce so much. we go from feeling at least a little sympathy for this man, despite his laziness and selfishness, to hating him for the villain that he is by the end.

will read clay and post again in an hour or two.

i'm back!
i loved Clay. i'll just post my favourite lines from the story:
>and the tip of her nose nearly met the tip of her chin.
>When she got outside the streets were shining with rain and she was glad of her old brown waterproof. The tram was full and she had to sit on the little stool at the end of the car, facing all the people, with her toes barely touching the floor. She arranged in her mind all she was going to do and thought how much better it was to be independent and to have your own money in your pocket. She hoped they would have a nice evening. She was sure they would but she could not help thinking what a pity it was Alphy and Joe were not speaking. They were always falling out now but when they were boys together they used to be the best of friends: but such was life.
>They would be sure to have plenty of apples and nuts. It was hard to know what to buy and all she could think of was cake. She decided to buy some plumcake but Downes's plumcake had not enough almond icing on top of it so she went over to a shop in Henry Street.
>Everybody said: "O, here's Maria!" when she came to Joe's house. Joe was there, having come home from business, and all the children had their Sunday dresses on. There were two big girls in from next door and games were going on. Maria gave the bag of cakes to the eldest boy, Alphy, to divide and Mrs. Donnelly said it was too good of her to bring such a big bag of cakes and made all the children say: "Thanks, Maria."
>One got the prayer-book and the other three got the water; and when one of the next-door girls got the ring Mrs. Donnelly shook her finger at the blushing girl as much as to say: Oh I know all about it! They insisted then on blindfolding Maria and leading her up to the table to see what she would get; and, while they were putting on the bandage, Maria laughed and laughed again till the tip of her nose nearly met the tip of her chin.
>But no one tried to show her her mistake; and when she had ended her song Joe was very much moved. He said that there was no time like the long ago and no music for him like poor old Balfe, whatever other people might say; and his eyes filled up so much with tears that he could not find what he was looking for and in the end he had to ask his wife to tell him where the corkscrew was.

Very comforting story. I loved this. Probably one of my favourites from this entire collection!

>>20445384
>Very comforting story. I loved this. Probably one of my favourites from this entire collection!
Agree. It's very idyllic reading. Not my favorite but even Joyce's worse writing is always comforting to read.

>>20445847
well, i wouldn't call this his worst; the prose is very very good and the narrative is grounded, but it has been the least spectacular so far, thematically, at least. or maybe i'm missing something. >>20444474 made some really good points, and that makes me like the story much more!

>>20444474
I just read clay. I will admit I did not get it but I was able to hear her sing in my head pretty well. What was implied with the older gentleman and was this, you think, the mingling of these two groups, what it was portraying? Is this something to do with the title, clay?

>>20446233
The old man was likely just Joyce tying a lot of Irish issues at the time with the English ("colonel-looking BBC negro")

bump! can't wait to read A Painful Case, considering what >>20408140 said a week ago.
joyce is really shaping up to be one of my favourite authors with these short, wonderful, intimate, sensitive, empathetic stories.