/lit/ - Literature

>>20430656
obviously peterson

>>20430656
>spent all his families money
>spent all his wife’s money
>mooched off of his bitch Engel for the rest of his life
>wrote a philosophy about how the government should just give him everything

Clearly Marx.

>>20430656
Evola immediately springs to mind
>>20430712
Also good choice.

>>20430656
He's in the OP
>Waa gib me money

>>20430656
not marx

>>20430731
wagies mad, keep slaving for ur like boss

>>20430731
Wagie mad, keep slaving for ur kike boss

>>20430762
I never said that Marx was a pseudo, it is just some random photo that I had on my folder. Why Marx was the first author that popped in your mind?

>>20430778
because there's a photo of him in the op. are you retarded?

>>20430656
Nietzsche

>>20430778
Because the picture implies it you dumbass

Will Self

>>20430794
>>20430798
Do you think Marx was a pseudo?

>>20430731
uh oh wagie! break time is over

>>20430731
>>wrote a philosophy about how the government should just give him everything
You can always identify a pseud because they talk so authoritatively about shit they've never read. Marx is an economist anyway idk why you'd include him in lit.

Reminder for everyone in this thread: If you haven't read the author you're judging then YOU are the pseud

>>20430656

>>20430811
>Marx is an economist anyway... Reminder for everyone in this thread: If you haven't read the author you're judging then YOU are the pseud
Marx:
>Just as the economists are the scientific representatives of the bourgeois class, so the Socialists and Communists are the theoreticians of the proletarian class.

Schopenhauer

>>20430841
ROFL
Marxist btfo again. Every time.

>>20430712
this is the pseudo intellectual’s choice for biggest pseudo intellectual. Peterson is cringe but also a genuine intellectual, comparable to like Sagan, Zizek, Dawkins.
the first person who comes to mind for me is John Greene, he almost defines the pseud personality type in a way that would be genius if it were parody.

Me

>>20430811
>ugh you haven't even read Dianetics and yet you don't like Scientology?
Sorry that your dogshit ideology doesn't work, maybe its time to move on. Read a history book if you don't believe me.
>uuuhhhhhhh NOT REAL COMMUNISM!!!!!!!
You fucking commies always say this shit never realizing that, maybe the reason "real communism" never happens, is because ITS UTOPIAN BULLSHIT and your whole ideology is just a means to form totalitarianism. Fucking use your brain.

>>20430731
Marx is definitely one of the biggest, but you got it wrong.

>attacks other socialists that existed before him
>says his socialism is the only one to be trusted because it's based on science
>claims capitalism will implode inevitably (cites "the science")
>can't actually explain what society will look like after, but it will be good, just trust me
>largely ignorant of monetary policy
>tells the proles that living through capitalism is actually necessary
>if capitalism hasn't imploded yet it's because there hasn't been enough technology made by capitalism yet
>proles and bourgeois intellectuals keep believing in a "scientific socialism" that never arrives and only undermines alternative socialisms
>people continue to live in techno-capitalism despite Marxists seeing every event as the mark of the end of capitalism (This time for real!)
>Marxists openly shill for big pharma pandemic profiteering and fuck over the proles' bodily autonomy
>every Marxist state has culminated in a two-class society lead by a bourgeois mangerial class that ends up genociding the proles

Marx is literally a shill for capitalism. Marxism has done nothing but hurt the proles and herd the masses into a pseud-solution that will not and cannot arrive.

>>20430841
There's no contradiction here. You've taken the quote out of context. Marxs makes a distinction between his work and the work of Bourgois economists which exist only to justify Capitalism. Still, his work remains in the strictest sense either economics or at least sociology. He never wrote anything that was literature. You got me to waist a few minutes of my life on a quibbling gotcha. Congrats.

>>20430943
Wrong

Marx is high up there. I'd nominate Guenon, and most german philosophers, especially Nietzsche and Heidegger.

>>20430988
He never wrote anything that was literature.
He did write poems.

>all these useful idiots (NPCs) attacking Marx for the ruling class (FOR FREE) because that is the edgy thing to do in current era.

>>20430971
>>ugh you haven't even read Dianetics and yet you don't like Scientology?
I can attack the legacy of Scientology without the need to talk about L Ron. but I actually did read Dianetics before passing judgement on L. R. Hubbard. You know like any honest thinker should do.

>Read a history book if you don't believe me.
I minored in History and took a course in early modern Russia. Please tell me which books you read that brought you to that conclusion.

>You fucking commies always say this shit never realizing that, maybe the reason "real communism"
Communism is not a state of being but an act of striving and becoming. The French Revolution, the nationalst revolutions of the 1800's Europeans, none of these things or anything in particular "are democracy". When we read Toqueville we can see how quaint it was to pass judgement on a grand and radical philosophical/social/economic system by single data points. Some things are right and some things are wrong but so often we are biased to the status quo. All of this to say that the USSR was not capital 'C' Communism but its heroic efforts to, for the first time, radically transform society was Herculanean, inspiring, and both ugly and beautiful as all truly great things are.

>>20430804
Of course

>>20430656
Yes, Nietzsche and Butler too.

>>20431023
Were they published?

>>20431124
Not until after his death

>>20430975
Rare real criticism of marxism on /lit/

>>20430975
And yet the empirical data backs him up. Profit is and has been declining. The opening up of many markets in Asia and Africa have reversed this trend a bit but overall profit will decline until we will reach a point of either freedom from the doomed system of a slavery to something far worse. Any system that emerges from the doomed corpse of Capitalism will be crowned "Communism"

>>20431272
*or a slavery

>>20430961
>Sagan
nothing more than a science popularizer
>Zizek
retard who actually believes in Lacan
>Dawkins
The Selfish Gene is essential but otherwise narrow minded

>>20431316
yeah the point I was making was that an intellectual not being a genius doesn’t make him a pseud.

>>20430731
Glaring hypocrisy aside, the biggest problem with Marxism is class identity. In a healthy society it doesn't actually matter, and we know this for a fact.
Roman generals would open up their stomach if they lost battles.
Russian aristocracy sent their sons to the front lines during WWI.
In such societies class differences matter less, because there's a sense of togetherness. Of putting everything on the line and sharing the same fate with the peasants.
Capitalism and communism are two sides of the same coin, where the highest virtue is worshipping the shekel, making both extremely fucking gay.
Move past economics kikery and grow the fuck up already.

>>20431321
when it comes to Peterson he appears to like taking the role of being the agent of ultimate wisdom and his fans will eat it up
hes a pseud under the degree of how he is perceived

>>20431316
>The Selfish Gene is essential
Pseud detected lmao that book is just trash pop sci

>>20430731
sounds kinda based

>>20431353
You need to be over 18 to post here

>>20431346
I think its a useful concept to at least know about

>>20431359
thanks ill keep it in mind :^)

>>20431343
with that specification I see your point. I think it’s hard to seperate him from his followers, same with the other people I mentioned. although I would never say that he isn’t an intelligent guy. Peterson attracts pseuds, but I don’t consider him one.

>>20430971
>"you don't need to read a book to see if something is shit"
>"now go read a book"
lol

>>20430961
>Peterson is cringe but also a genuine intellectual
A dubious claim even before benzos and Russian doctors destroyed his brain

>>20430765
>>20430776
>We just want to groom kids all day instead of work!
>>20431272
That graph is fake and its not even empirical. Marxists literally make a graph without a methodology, and call it it true. It also doesn't align with Marxists own arguments. You can not argue that inequality is increasing while arguing profit rates are falling. Everyone would becoming poorer, but this isn't happening.

>>20431477
adam smith's growth of capital stock

me

>>20430656
You

>>20431493
>The rate of profit is falling
>Corporate profit still continues to rise
>Household income continues to rise when adjusted for inflation
Again, Marxists are just bullshiting numbers as always

>>20431036
Marx didn’t account for the wagie’s undying loyalty to the ruling class. This is simply why a proletariat dictatorship is extremely impossible in this day in age. I wonder if his writings would be different if he saw the mass worship of billionaires and capitalism done by the very people who suffer from it.

>>20431272
What Marxists do is they make assumptions on how to measure the rate of profit, and those assumptions give them the result they want. You can't demonstrate why those methodological assumptions are true; its just true because you say its true. You do the same with the wage stagnation graph. You assume wages are only the only form of worker compensation, and that people in the US are only wage workers. You then use the most skewed inflation coefficient to paint a narrative. You can't even produce papers that can be replicated because you use a different equation every time. Its ridiculous. None of you people even understand the math behind what you're posting or ever demonstrate it. You just see a graph that you like and you spam it like a retard. A random fucking graph with no citations, no explanation of the numbers - its just complete non-sense.

>>20431514
trusting a federal reserve bank sounds kinda gay anon
https://dbasu.shinyapps.io/World-Profitability/
https://dbasu.shinyapps.io/Profitability/

>>20431557
>Everyone is lying but my schizophrenic no name bloggers without any background in economics
Yeah, no, sorry

>>20430819
This

>>20431477
>You can not argue that inequality is increasing while arguing profit rates are falling
Marx really isn't concerned about "inequality". We less "equal" now became American monetary policy. Why did we do that? The industry in America simply became less profitable as its organic component of capital (money spent on workers vs money spent on machines) kept scewing to machines. Because only the exploitation of human labor creates profit it became very unprofitable for your industries to compete with highly machine-intensive manufacturing. What did they do instead? Tossed out the machines and paid tons of poor 3rd worlders to do the work with fewer machines thus skyrocketing profit.

>>20431551
>What Marxists do is they make assumptions on how to measure the rate of profit
Marxists have different ideas of what creates profit but I've never heard that they measure it differently.

>>20431566
anon...

>>20431594
>Marx really isn't concerned about "inequality".
There' so many of you "Marxists" this isn't going to be helpful at all.
>Marxists have different ideas of what creates profit
And this of course would change how you measure it. How do you expect to measure profit if you have different ideas on where it comes from?

>>20431610
profit comes from unpaid labour

>>20431603
>Source
>The New School of Economics
>The New School is a private research university in New York City. It was founded in 1919 as The New School for Social Research with an original mission dedicated to academic freedom and intellectual inquiry and a home for progressive thinkers.
>ts faculty and alumni include numerous notable businesspeople, political figures, fashion designers, journalists, musicians, and artists. Notable students and alumni who have achieved prominence in political and business fields include economist Heather Boushey,[7] a member of President Joe Biden's Council of Economic Advisers;
Yeah, no Anon, that's just propaganda. You really think people are going to trust data from fucking people who work for Joe Biden? Lmao.

>>20431610
Well Marx accepts almost all the definitions and terms used by the mainstream bourgois economists of his day. He draws different conclusions but starts with the same facts. Profit is just revenue - loss with a few quibbling over how to measure "loss" but I've never heard a Marxist have any measurement of profit that would be out of place in an economic textbook.

>>20430656
Probably you

>>20431641
>>20431504
Why are you being so mean? :(

>>20431638
Actually, no. Marxists just make shit up. He doesn't start with any facts. You have alternative facts. You have alternative facts about history. Alternative facts about economics. Alternative facts about society. You're just merchants in rhetoric like sophists.

>>20431635
>doesn't know about the PWT or the BEA
keep being a useful idiot for a federal reserve bank lol

>>20431624
Profit comes from costs after selling products to the public. And your definition of unpaid labor sounds retarded. Ah yes, mothers are being exploited by the capitalists for raising children! Yeah, you have to be a clown.

>>20431655
how much of Capital have you read? sounds like high-grade pseudery to diss an author you haven't read.

>>20431658
Imagine calling people useful idiots when you link data from Soros-backed think thanks. Its so weird how you people paint yourself as anti-establishment and then link data from Soros and all the corporate institutions that control our country.

>>20431635
>my source that supports the current power structure is pure and unbiased while YOURS is clearly propaganda because they do not support the current power structure
I swear this is the same kind of person who only posts studies from think tanks funded by massive corporations and thinks he's nonbiased

>>20431672
and data from a federal reserve bank is much better? lol. this is some twitter-tier "My billionaire can beat up your billionaire!" drivel. life isn't like a marvel movie, dude.

>>20431670
Takes a high amount of psuedry to think an author from 200 years ago, who wasn't even an economist, is relevant to today. Especially when you've never read capitalist books. Have you read the Law by Bastiat? Have you heard anything by Rothbard? or Friedman? Or Sowell. You think women can have penises - no one takes you seriously when it comes to economics. You don't have the intelligence to make claims about it.

>>20431688
Self reported data from tax returns is much more open than data made up by paid for by Soros and Joe Biden, yeah.

>>20431659
ESL lmao

>>20431691
>Takes a high amount of psuedry to think an author from 200 years ago, who wasn't even an economist, is relevant to today
If he's irrelevant why argue against him? If people think he's relevant then you should read him before making judgements on him. Economics is a science and a lot of our science is 200+ years old. I'm also curious about what you think qualifies someone as an "Economist". Was Adam Smith an economist?
>Have you heard anything by Rothbard? or Friedman? Or Sowell.
I've read at least one book from all of them and most of their publically available lectures. You left out Hayek though and he was the only one with some actual decent points.
>You think women can have penises - no one takes you seriously when it comes to economics.
Literally obsessed

>>20431691
lot of words to admit that you don't read the authors you post about

>>20430988
no, "economics" and "sociology" are categories of bourgeois science. you're accusing me of taking the quote out of context, but the context, in the same chapter, is that Marx explicitly contrasts economics as such with communism, identifying the former with capital:
>[Proudhon] wants to soar as the man of science above the bourgeois and proletarians; he is merely the petty bourgeois, continually tossed back and forth between capital and labour, political economy and communism.
and with your pretense that economics is above class struggle and as such can unite communists with bourgeois ideologues under the same category, you're doing just the thing Marx accuses Proudhon of here.
which means you're just a lib who can't see beyond bourgeois society and who considers bourgeois categories as neutral, timeless and universal. that's why you automatically try to shoehorn Marx into them. it's the same as with people who call him a leftist.
and let's just get a final piece of "context" from the same book:
>Ricardo, after postulating bourgeois production as necessary for determining rent, applies the conception of rent, nevertheless, to the landed property of all ages and all countries. This is an error common to __all the economists, who represent the bourgeois relations of production as eternal categories__.
which is the same mistake as representing bourgeois categories such as "an economist" as universal and all-encompassing.
>>20431477
>You can not argue that inequality is increasing while arguing profit rates are falling.
you can not argue anything about this until you go back to high school and learn basic math
>>20431514
you don't even understand what a "rate" is. you should immediately stop attempting to address serious subjects and go write comments on pornhub instead

>>20431688
>Soros and Joe Biden are telling the truth about wealth in America, not taxpayers
>I'm a communist by the way
hoooooollyyy shit
>>20431721
If he's irrelevant, why do you keep shilling him. He's not even a fucking economist - why should any care what he have to say on a field he wasn't trained in? He never worked a day in his life either or owned a business. This is the equivalent of saying people shou;d listen to flat earthers instead of astronomers. Its retarded.
>I've read at least one book from all of them and most of their publicly available lectures.
So you've barely read anything on capitalism but you want to critique it. Gotcha. Thank you for destroying any credible you had, pseud.
>>20431722
Lots of words to say nothing is communist/Marxist thing. Which you've done this entire thread. And not even one step closer to accomplishing your goals. You're just a punching bag for the rest of us.

>>20430656
gk chesterton. but i love that fat wordy fucker

>>20431726
You Marxists are retarded. According to you, rates can be falling while profits are constantly going up. Working hours are going down, yet the rate of profit going down would mean working hours would go up according to you because the only way capitalists can make a profit is through unpaid labor. You don't have logically consistent arguments. You're very stupid, but then again, you Marxists are the same people who believe 8 years can consent to wearing drag. You're not an intelligent person to begin with.

>>20431688
Nonsense, Darth Soros is an evil wizard coming to eat your babies

>>20430656
The main problem with financialization isn't cost of living pressures for the masses - its that we reward elites for excelling at rent-seeking behavior, and selecting for exceptional rent-seekers selects nerds who will uphold the status quo to control the political funding regime.

You've got to be an autistic libertarian to deny that at some point, improving the accuracy of stock prices has diminishing returns for national well being when so much talent is sucked up doing so.

>>20431786
>We can have a society where people aren't influenced by wealth and money
>If we just give more power to the government, the people who are the influence of these things, all our problems would just go away
This is why leftist solutions sound so retarded. Your solutions are literally just ways corporations price out small businesses with excessive regulations or move overseas.

>>20431786
The poor get so many subsidies, and yet, you complain they are living worse than they were 50+ years ago. And your solution is to give them even more money. And you wonder why people think your dumb.

>>20431796
Individualism vs. Collectivism or State vs. Amazon is the most poisonous false dichotomy in politics, there is a third position - patriotism. Patriotism rejects egalitarianism because a strong nation needs hierarchy, and it rejects individualism where a strong nation requires sacrifice and the liquidation of Libertarian nerds and subversive profiteers.

>>20431726
>>20431658
>>20431721
Go back to /pol/.

>>20431837
>let me tell you about my larper, online ideology
Nah

>>20431837
I think going to side with the libertarians and capitalists because they have the guns, money, and intelligence to do things. You're just a worthless NEET my man who spends too much time being a redditor on twitter.

>>20431837
>There's things are false dichotomies
>don't use them!
>uses them anyways
lol retards cant even be a coherent

>>20431853
LARPing has never been so lucrative, America is governed from the private sector and the formal government is just an elaborate historical re-enactment the think tanks put on. Go ahead, put up your mask coward, you live and breath to dick ride the status quo.

>>20431803
You either mistaking me for someone else or strawmaning me.

>>20431882
>Rejects Lolbertrain re-enactments.
>Let’s reject both stupid of these poltical assumptions, because both are dogshit
>uhhh, tranny much?
Sargon?

>>20430656

>>20430819

John Green

>>20431925
>Rejects words
>uses them to describe opponents
Do retards really

>>20431759
>You Marxists are retarded. According to you, rates can be falling while profits are constantly going up.
that's not Marxism, that's just math. take it up with fucking thales of miletus
>Working hours are going down
no, the total amount of working hours goes up. take a look at world's population graph if you can read it
>You're very stupid
bro, you literally don't understand basic arithmetic. stop projecting this bad

>>20431994
>Exists
>Also Exists
Do Bunkerfags REALLY?

>>20430811
>Marx is an economist anyway

>>20431958
She really was immensely talented. You just wish she had read more books. There's an entry in her published journals that says more or less: "I've noticed that I form opinions and then read in search of justification of those, instead of reading and becoming acquainted with the topic first. Is this bad? No, and here's why..." It's frustrating.

>>20432042
>that's not Marxism, that's just math.
You don't understand Math. Otherwise, you wouldn't be a Marxist since there's no quantitative proof of communism actually working. You just waste peoples' time with your non-sense from a non-economist.
>no, the total amount of working hours goes up.
Another claim that's completely wrong. And you're so retarded you think world population growth is metric to measure time at work. You should probably stop pretending you're informed because you skim wikipedia articles.

Certainly not Marx.

>>20430656
Hegel
this post was made by Schopenhauer gang

>>20430656
I get money from the government due to a disability and I don’t work at a job. I spend most of my time writing or reading.
Does this make me a lazy bourgeois capitalist?

>>20432150
>You don't understand Math.
you literally can't differentiate between absolute and relative amounts lmao
>Another claim that's completely wrong.
you don't even know what "total amount" means. go back to kindergarten you mongoloid
>And you're so retarded you think world population growth is metric to measure time at work.
are you also language illiterate on top of math illiterate? I said that the total amount of work hours performed will scale with population, which should be immediately obvious to anyone above elementary school
>You should probably stop pretending you're informed because you skim wikipedia articles.
which articles? I learned math at school

>>20432278
Shut up, Karl.

>>20432333
Schopenhauer’s hatred of Hegel boils down to pure jealousy

>>20430975
>can't actually explain what society will look like after, but it will be good, just trust me
Even now many marxists stubbornly refuse to elaborate on at least basic principles of the kind of society they want if not finer details. They just cope with "that's utopianism". No wonder every fucking time they took control of the state they basically had no idea what to do and ended up oppressing proles and propping up authoritarian institutions. At least traditional anarchists(not those who base their philosophy on nietzsche and stirner goldman) have a clear idea about what they actually want even if it's not practical.

>>20432394
Do you own capital?

>>20430811
kek this cope, keep coping commietard

>>20431343
>Peterson he appears to like taking the role of being the agent of ultimate wisdom
Id argue its more a standard bearer for western cultural wisdom discarded in haste. He has seen hesitant at every corner about being seen as anything but that.

>>20431447
>Peterson attracts pseuds, but I don’t consider him one.
Big this. He is not revolutionary or tries to be he is just willing to make big bank on teaching old wisdom to the products of single mothers and the US public education system.

I think his value is the ability to articulate his thoughts to normies, its a gift, that most ppl with more than two brain cells to rub togeather have an issue with

>>20432929
>Learned math at school
>Can't even read a graph correctly
Marxists are retarded. Just get off /lit/ and get a job, okay

>>20430961
He’s a fucking jungian psychologist. He might as well be an astrologer.

>>20433055
It would look like what we have now except with dental care and reasonable rent.

>>20433859
Peterson actually has a degree in a field he was expert in. Marx was an "economist" without even being trained in the field. Peterson didn't leech off his parents... Marx did all his life.

>>20433055
>Goebbels writes a book called "Communism With the Mask off" exposing communism
>Hitler auto-bio literally tells you everything you need to know about communists
But dude... they're so vague. Its totally not on purpose for something sinister that people have warned you about for centuries...

>>20433055
>At least traditional anarchists(not those who base their philosophy on nietzsche and stirner goldman)
The thing is those who base their though on Nietzsche, Stirner and Goldman know what they want because they rely on their intuition, and don't need you to know what their plans are. Some people are so autistic and weak willed they need someone figure everything out for them. Most people know what they need to do. They don't need some kike messiah telling them what their purpose in life is. The fox kills the rabbit, and he didn't need to sit his ass in a state university to figure that out.

>>20431691
>Have you read the Law by Bastiat? Have you heard anything by Rothbard? or Friedman? Or Sowell.
The absolute ironing of recommending this while complaining about how Marxists regularly fail to be empirical.

>>20430656
If literature includes “readers”, then this board

>>20433900
Bastiat, Friedman, Sowell are all economists literally did just that though... retard... leftists are so stupid

>>20433877
>Marx was an "economist" without even being trained in the field
There are Marxist economists, but Marx is not one of them.

>>20433914
There are economists, but Marxists aren't any of them.

>>20430656
Marx was very intelligent but his problem was he lived too much in his head and not enough in the real world. He never actually held a real job and so all his writings came from his ass

>>20434008
>He never actually held a real job and so all his writings came from his ass
You mean except for all those newspapers and magazines he ran?

>>20434018
"real job"

Hegel Freud
Choose one

>>20434018
A job that was real he had still beg Engels to pay his bills.

>>20433892
>they want because they rely on their intuition, and don't need you to know what their plans are.
That's not how political projects work. You can't do shit on your own following your immediate impulses. Lifestyle anarchists are just retarded.

>>20434090
>You can't just rely on own critical thinking skills!
>People don't innate skills
Who the fuck cares about political projects, you fucking bum? No one has to live for politics you stupid child. Motherfuckers like you die like Marx - without money and friends because you wasted your life in matters you can't even control. You're too stupid and too dumb do anything that will change history. Stop thinking you're next Lenin when you're not.

>>20434090
>You can't do shit on your own following your immediate impulses.
Literally all the great men of history were men of institution. Hitler for example was highly inuttive thinker. So was Napoleon. The best businessmen - people like Musk were just purely people good with intuition. He never gave shit about Marx, I guarantee he's done more for history than you will ever do.

>>20434086
Jealous you don't have a sugar daddy? Get back to work.

>>20434105
>pull urself by the bootstrap and follow u instinct

>>20434008
Way to dance around the question without having to confront it on its own terms

>>20434090
>>20434116
Niggers in Detroit got more sense than people who read Marx and call themselves Marxists. They make more money than you, they get laid and got friends. You're so autistic you think all it is to life is just Marx and class struggle. Nothing else bros. Its just DiaMat, HisMat or some other retarded shit a worthless Jew said 200+ years ago that's no longer relevant. We know you're gynecomastia having nerd that wears glasses and was shoved into lockers in school. You have no skills or talents. You can't make art, you can't make books, you can't engineer or build anything. You're just a waste. You can't even do anything original. You just repeat and copy. At least fascists were and still are a bit original. Motherfuckers like you have no imagination at all or future really.

>>20430656

jesus christ.

>>20433877
Economics as its own field you could study as a course at university didn't exist at that time, Adam Smith didn't have a economics degree does that invalidate him?

>>20434116
Weird how so many people never read Marx, never will, and do just that, and are way further ahead than you in life. Why is getting a job, having a family, making friends, and carrying out your financial responsibilities so hard for you? Da capitalists don't seem to stop most but retards like you for some reason.

>>20431340
How do we get this sense of togetherness back. It seems almost impossible at this point.

>>20430712
His way of interpreting The Bible as a ancient self-help book instead of a chronicle of supernatural unity of God and mankind basically made me allergic to him

>>20434258
ban free speech and kill a bunch of people

>>20430961
Carl Sagan was more of a science cheerleader than a scientist, and he was a damn good cheerleader. He probably singlehandedly inspired the desire to pursue knowledge in hundreds of thousands of people. He's not a pseud

>>20433183
No. Unless you mean Marx's book, Capital, also known as Das Kapital. If that's the question then also no.

>>20430656
Henry Miller

>>20430656
Hegel

>>20433854
>Can't even read a graph correctly
your graph shows a amount per worker, while I was talking about the total amount. with every comment you keep broadcasting that you're an illiterate retard who still doesn't understand how a relative measure (such as the rate of profit) can fall, while the absolute measure (such as the total profit) rises. and that's because you can't even tell the difference between the two, as evidenced. just stop embarrassing yourself

>>20434258
Read Lasch

>>20430961
> comparable to like Sagan, Zizek, Dawkins.
Lmao
Lol
Lmfao
All of these people are massive pseuds.

>>20431340
>Russian aristocracy sent their sons to the front lines during WWI.
Most of them overwhelmingly didn't. It was a point of pride for a relatively minor fraction of them that they went balls to the wall, while the majority kept their children away from the fighting with bribery and influence.

>In such societies class differences matter less
>"There was no significant class difference in that society which had actual literal classes defined in law and eventually crumbled to fuck during that war as the lower classes got turbo pissed"

>>20434646
>It was a point of pride for a relatively minor fraction of them that they went balls to the wall
...and then exactly those conservative and patriotic aristocrats overwhelmed with "a sense of togetherness" were the ones who went and forced Tsar to abdicate.

>sharing the same fate with the peasants
...and after they failed to form a government to replace said deposed Tsar while the lower classes had formed two, these steely-eyed marble-souled aristocrats determined on sharing the same fate with the peasants went to war with both of those new governments, kek.

Ironically, "sharing the same fate with the peasants" rhetoric was generally used by the aristocrats who turned cloak and joined the Bolshies.

Marx was right in some fields but overall he was a pseud and really overrated and worshiped by pseuds and materialist plebs. He was also probably an unironic judeo-masonic and jesuit lackey.

>>20430712
>obviously peterson
agreed

>>20431551
They didn't even prove there is a relationship between profits and capital.
I can sink all my capital on a shit-producing factory and lose money.
Profits relate to meeting consumer demands at a cost that would be profitable. Simple as.
Marxists have a completely different view of reality completely lost in theory.

It's a form of religion. Their arguments are no different than apologists.

>>20430731
Wagie, wagie, back in the cagie! The real problem with Marx is that he was scared of calculus.

>>20430712
Not even close, he has actually read Jung and some Russian lit
I therefore nominate myself

>>20434522
You're retard. You don't even know what annual means. Holy fuck, kill yourself. You're beyond saving.

>>20434522
You're clearly retarded. Your profit rate graph shows the profit rate going down constantly since 1950, yet retard, we've had higher profits in 2016 than in 1950. Your belief is mathematically impossible. Ah yes, corporate profits are growing faster at a time where profit rates are allegedly falling in the same time frame. You idiots don't even get basic logic. Seriously, kill yourself. You're worthless and dumb as fuck.

>>20435601
Obviously, because we see the graphs of profit and rate of profit align if their thesis was true. But there is no alignment. There is no empirical relationship. Corporate profits keep going up, are higher at the lowest point of allegedly the profit rate. They don't understand methodology and they don't understand logic.

>>20431963
Belongs in a pigsty

>>20435817
Last year I made one dollar of a ten dollar investment. This year I made two dollars of a thirty dollar investment.

>>20431316
The selfish gene contradicts itself.

>>20432148
If she was so talented why did she never drop that accent after living for decades in US?
Clearly a sign of inferiority.
On top of that she died homeless on social security.

>>20430712
Fpbp

>>20436146
Over 10 years I made 20 dollars. Then, over two years made 30 dollars.
You:
>The profit rate is constantly falling!

>>20433008
Schopenhauer's system made more sense

>>20436321
My post was to intended to demonstrate that rate of profit can fall while profit increase although that didnt seem to penetrate

do make it simpler:
2021 ROP - Profit : 10% - 1 dollar
2022 ROP - Profit : 6% - 2 dollars

>>20430731
Shouldn't you be creating surplus value for someone else right now? Don't forget your bill payments, wouldn't want even more of your money going to interest on a loan! Oops, that happens to almost everyone since you must either rent or get a mortgage! Back to the cage, wagie!

>>20430712
>obviously peterson
real

>>20431514
Bruh, even conservatives recognize median income buys you less today than any time in the past 5 decades

>>20430961
>Zizek
Unironically has he produced any original thought at all?
I love the guy and I’ve listened to many hours of his talks. But he’s more of a philosophy popularizer than a philosopher. In terms of the originality and depth of what he says, it hardly ever rises above the level of your average /lit/ post.

>>20436157
How so? I'm willing to bet you simply didn't comprehend the point you think is contradictory

>>20436438
Your point is retarded. One, the graph has no methodology. Not even the data provided shows how those numbers made that graph. You can't even explain how to make that graph. Two, Marxists can't even measure the rate of profit because their understanding of profit is impossible to measure. According to Marx, surplus value is the rate of profit. Its not possible to measure surplus value because surplus value is the amount of unpaid labor time the capitalist allegedly forces people to work to make a commodity. The value of a commodity is not tied to the amount of labor hours you put into a commodity. And in many cases, its not even possible for you to know how much labor hours it will take to make a product - there is inherent risk and uncertainty when making a product. Laborers aren't machines, they tire, they have limited time and resources, they aren't always efficient with their labor, they can't predict demand - the value is almost always subjective and an estimation. Three, you are stupid as fuck - you can't explain why a constant rate of profit going down correlates with profit rate that is clearly faster than rate going down would imply. Your dumb. Literally, its non-sense - nobody talks about the falling rate of profit; its only Marxists who bring this argument up. None of them have the same methodology for measuring the rate of profit either. You want us to believe corporations are hiding falling profit rates from the rest of us? Its retarded. Everyone would be talking about if it was the case.

>>20434259
>a chronicle of supernatural unity of God and mankind
My condolences on being a retard

>>20430656
>control + f, no Derrida

>>20437054
Bruh, that's just a lie. Consumption per capita of durable commodities is higher than it was 50 years ago. Your retarded anecdotes don't align with the data, sorry. The problem is we got so many lazy people like you just don't want to work and want more handouts. Healthcare, College, Transportation and Insurance are suppose to go up because higher demand from the population increasing. When your country doesn't produce enough, prices will always go up. College goes up because we made it easier to go to college. Healthcare went up because Medicare and Medicaid. Too demand, not enough supply. Transportation goes up gas prices go up due to pumping oil (thank leftists for that). Housing goes up because zoning makes us build less housing because of all the environment regulations like NEPA, which leftists support, causing housing to be more expensive because it takes more paperwork and time to comply with the licenses.

>>20437115
am i hallucinating or is this floating bowtie and kippah talking to me right now

>>20437054
>>20437120
College isn't a right. Transportation isn't a right. Health Insurance isn't a right. Housing isn't a right. All those things get more don't produce enough gas, doctors, hospitals, houses to meet the growing supply of people immigrating and being born. The government should not provide those things or help people to get them.

>>20437115
Not him, but the problem with individual Marxists is they desperately try and invoke empirical evidence to prove their theology, we find their empirical evidence is hopelessly contradictory.

Their various data sets and graphs on the average rate of profit are comically discrepant and contradictory (often because they cannot even agree on the correct definition of the profit rate), as even a cursory examination of their writings on this issue in the links below shows:

Husson, Michel. “La hausse tendancielle du taux de profit” [“The Tendency of the Rate of Profit to Rise”], January 2010
http://hussonet.free.fr/tprof9.pdf
Chris Harman, “Not all Marxism is Dogmatism: A Reply to Michel Husson,” International Socialism (2nd series) 125 (2010).
https://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/2010/xx/dogma.htm

Another blatant problem with the many graphs Marxists have constructed is probably that the rate of profit during the Second World War and in the immediate post-war years was unusually and abnormally high, given the massive interventions to stop wage rises, price inflation, and the massive demand for war material and other output during the war years, all of which would have tended to raise business profit rates.

>>20437157
I'm the guy who posted that.
The Marxist Humanist report had good example about this. There was a critique of Paul Cockshot understanding of the LTV because these retards can't even get their basic correct.
https://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/episode-20-cockshott-versus-marx-interview-with-rv
They aren't even consistent on LTV. I know how these people think; they always change their tune and make shit up as they go. They rely on nobodies like Cockshot and Hudson who never are consistent or have replicable data. I bet you that retard who posted about the profit rate doesn't even know Husdon. They just google first thing that confirms their priors and run with it.

>>20431062
There was nothing beautiful about it though. They didn't even believe in objective beauty. Besides, they accomplished nothing and cpuld not escape from the uninterrupted state of nature. The state will never go away.

>>20430975
You got it wrong at the end. Capitalism
and socialism do not exist and Marx was just delusional.

>>20437109
This

>>20430656
>prolific alcoholic
>lived as a NEET off the money of his friend
>spent his time with a group of pseuds arguing about books
>parents disappointed in him
>called people he didn't like jewish niggers
how isn't marx /ourguy/?

>>20430656

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luce_Irigaray

>>20435792
I do, but you don't know what "per worker" means. why the fuck would it matter whether it's annual or daily? you're genuinely mentally retarded, I'm not being hyperbolic
>>20435817
>Your profit rate graph
I haven't posted any profit rate graph
>we've had higher profits in 2016 than in 1950
you're still comparing the rate with the absolute amount (which is what's on your graph), despite having been told 5 times already that this is a basic mistake. your teachers probably gave up on you early on because you can't even learn by correcting your own mistakes after someone helpfully points them out for you. no wonder you're so unbelievably fucking stupid
>>20437074
>According to Marx, surplus value is the rate of profit
that's interesting, because his equation for the rate of profit includes surplus value as the nominator, and there are other things in the denominator. but I guess in retard math everything is possible
>Its not possible to measure surplus value
it is, since sum of values must = sum of prices, and we can measure sum of money invested and the sum of money that came back
>surplus value is the rate of profit
>surplus value is the amount
again with the rate being the amount? in each of your post you find a new way to commit the exact same kindergarten-child-with-down-syndrome level error. it's honestly amazing
>The value of a commodity is not tied to the amount of labor hours you put into a commodity.
true, it's tied to the amount of abstract labour hours that would be needed to reproduce the commodity, not the amount of concrete labour hours that have been put into it
>And in many cases, its not even possible for you to know how much labor hours it will take to make a product
irrelevant tangent
>there is inherent risk and uncertainty when making a product
risk and uncertainty are also irrelevant, because they average out with global mass production
>Laborers aren't machines... the value is almost always subjective and an estimation
no, an estimation of value will be an estimation. the value won't. measuring a tree with imperfect accuracy doesn't make the tree itself taller or shorter depending on the measurement error.
>you are stupid as fuck - you can't explain why a constant rate of profit going down correlates with profit rate that is clearly faster than rate going down would imply
yep, still doesn't know what a rate is and calls other people stupid
>You want us to believe corporations are hiding falling profit rates from the rest of us?
why would corporations be interested in economy-wide rate of profit?

I almost started to believe I was being baited, but that screed confirmed that you're honestly trying to formulate correct thoughts, but you always immediately run into the limitations imposed by your down syndrome

>>20434258
Neo Monarchism.

>>20430712
if you read "biggest" as most popular and most blindly followed then sure, probably the best answer. If biggest means the most pseudo then no, theres much worse, but all those get enough criticism. Peterson is the Elon Musk of philosophy

>>20434667
>went to war with both of those new governments, kek.
It had more to do with the fact that they didn't want society to crumble in the hands of the bolsheviks. Who started the thing when thwy couped the government which then proved itself to be inept, but that's basic democracy for you

>>20437591
He's a psychologist.

>>20437316
You still don't know how to read graphs. You will never be a woman. You will never live to see socialism. Nobody gives what you have to say. You are mathematically illiterate. You don't even know measure surplus value, you're own theory, and again you're ranting about things that are not relevant to the argument. Are Marxists is really this stupid? You clearly don't have a job with reading comprehension and critical thinking skills this poor.
>Risks and uncertainty are irrelevant to production
Yeah, you're a massive retard. Get off lit, psued.

>>20437634
lmao is that best you could do

>>20437316
>I haven't posted any profit rate graph
You're so retarded you don't even know who you talking to. Is this autism? You're so stupid you're changing Marx's definition of the profit to something that's even more stupid. Like >>20437157
said, you're retarded and inconsistent.
>why would corporations be interested in economy-wide rate of profit?
Yeah, why would corporations not want to know the profitability of the markets they operate in? Why do you think S&P 500 were among the first people to actually check out your dumbass theory of the falling rate of profit in the 1970s and found no falling rate of profit? Holy shit you are the stupidest person I've talked to his. I shouldn't have expected anymore more from a Marxist. I don't even how you're trying to be so smug when you're so stupid.

>>20437316
Facts:
>Working hours going down
>Profits going up
Brain dead Marxist:
>This secret graph with on wordpress from Michael Hudson, a literal Marxist economist nobody, is proof the corporations are hiding from you the profit rate is failing the demise of capitalism is certain. I can't even explain to you how get made the graph, or how to get his numbers, but you'll just have to trust me.
Dude, you are dumb. I'm so glad people in the field economics, especially my country, don't give a fuck what you have to say and never will. You make it so easy for people to not waste their time with retards like you.

>>20431316
i'm sorry you got filtered by lacan. I disagree with everything he says but even i know he's right.

I'll nominate David Hume and then silently slip away into the shadows since no-one here has actually read enough to have read any of his stuff beyond his Wikipedia page

>>20437316
>the amount of abstract labour hours
And this is where Marxism breaks down. Funny that no one in this thread has pointed it out yet.

>>20437716
I'm not sorry you have brain damage

>>20430712
I think he wrote less than 5 books or some shit. He can't really be considered important in literature. For the moment at least.

>>20437115
>>20437131
>>20437157
/lit/ never ceases to amaze me. I quote work from Mitt Romney's economic policy advisor and I get accused of being a Marxist. Never change you schizos, never change. https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/sites/default/files/the-cost-of-thriving-index-OC.pdf

>>20437115
>The top few percentiles have HUGE increases of wealth
>The 50th percentile fluctuates around about the same total amount
The operation of the free market concentrates wealth at the top while the vast majority are actually worse off after each market crash.

>>20437732
Why Hume?

>>20438511
I like how you leave out Cass' advocacy of mercantilism as being the solution, which is correct as you can't escape political economy.

>>20437654
>>I haven't posted any profit rate graph
>You're so retarded you don't even know who you talking to. Is this autism?
why are you projecting again? you're the one who thinks you're talking to someone who posted some graph, but I haven't posted any graphs.
>You're so stupid you're changing Marx's definition of the profit to something that's even more stupid.
what am I changing Marx's definition of profit to from what? you're just confused because you're so mentally deficient that you wouldn't be able to comprehend the difference between speed and acceleration
>Yeah, why would corporations not want to know the profitability of the markets they operate in?
I haven't said they wouldn't want to know the profitability of the markets they operate in. I said they wouldn't give a shit about economy-wide profitability, which is true.
>Why do you think S&P 500 were among the first people to actually check out your dumbass theory of the falling rate of profit in the 1970s and found no falling rate of profit?
that's just not true
>I don't even how you're trying to be so smug when you're so stupid.
you have the understanding of a piece of wood, so I might just as well be explaining to you that 2+2=4, and you'd still think I'm being smug
>>20437680
>This secret graph with on wordpress
I haven't posted any wordpress graphs. get checked
>a literal Marxist economist
there's no such thing. Marxism and economics are in opposition. Marx:
>[Proudhon] is merely the petty bourgeois, continually tossed back and forth between capital and labour, political economy and communism.

>is proof the corporations are hiding from you the profit rate is failing
they don't need to be hiding anything. it's not the duty of any corporation to give a shit about the economy-wide rate of profit
>the demise of capitalism is certain
it's not certain because of some graphs, but because capitalism can't stop developing the productive forces to be ever more socialized and it can't stop reproducing the proletariat
>>20437745
>And this is where Marxism breaks down.
and this is where your post broke down

>>20439293
Not same anon but probably because he denied any a priori knowledge of God based on the fact God wasn't a touchable, smellable, seeable object he could grasp in his hand so he denied it based on personal experience alone

>>20431272
>2 more weeks

>>20430712
>>20430731
/thread

A shared first place it is.

>>20430811
>If you haven't read the author you're judging then YOU are the pseud
I don't have to read what that retard has written, if other people that have read him have told me how retarded his writing is.

>>20430961
quality bait

>>20431721
>Economics is a science
Lol, no. The entire economy is built around belief and expectations of no permanence. Also, today there is no industrial group which can be said to be: in the majority, producers on whom society "depends", in dire need. Nobe of Marx's writings on society are even relevant today outside from the ideologies it sprouts forth that affect actions in the real world.

>>20434049
Yeah Hegel was the real pseud behind Marxism

>>20439631
Yes that is clearly enough to make him the biggest pseudo intellectual

>>20437064
christ do you even read books ?

>>20430776
>>20430808
>>20435691

>wagie

Marxist can’t even insult you LOL
Communists have the blood of 100 million people on their hands. Never worked, will never work.
sneed more

Its because of those "degenerate Marxists, anarchists and commies" you have 5-day work week, at most 8 hours work per day, worker insurance etc many things. Most of those people were not even intellectuals, just wages like you and me, who lived literally day to day, yet they cared enough to fight for their rights. These people deserve utter respect.
In comparison what did fascism gave humanity as whole? Nothing

>>20440645
the USSR was capitalist
>>20440688
you're talking to a bunch of students and neets though

>>20440777
How is it capitalist when there's no private property relations based markets? Do you think capitalism means profits??

>>20440790
>How is it capitalist when there's no private property relations based markets
there were, read up on Soviet agriculture
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09668135608410028
>The kolkhoz market is in essence a free market to which agricultural producers bring food products for sale to individual private consumers at prices determined by local supply and demand conditions. While I shall later have occasion to qualify and elaborate various elements of this definition, it serves adequately to describe the more than 8000 kolkhoz markets in the USSR today. A significant share of total private consumption passes through these markets, while income from market sales forms the major share of the kolkhozniki's (collective-farmers') money income.

>Do you think capitalism means profits??
yes, capitalism is distinguished by the majority of production being motivated by profit

Marx was the Dobson of 19th century Germany

>>20440688
>what did fascism gave humanity as whole?
The Italian welfare state and what is left of its state-owned economy.

>>20430712
clean your room and hand over your unwanted belongings to peterson. your humble donations will set you free

>>20433008
>Hegelian
>NOOOOOOOO HEGEL CAN'T BE WRONG YOU ARE BUTTHURT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GET INSTALLED BY A LITERAL MONARCH AS 'THE CURRENT THING' FOR NPCS
Checks out

>>20433877
Marx was a philosopher of history, his whole shtick was a metahostorical narrative that managed to synthesize both hegelianism with materialism

>>20441015
the impetus for the welfare state was the revolutionary pressure of the world proletariat between 1917 and 1927 and the prospect of its return. fascism had no special role in it, because it was also established in states without fascist rule. besides, in Italy some reforms started already in 1919.

>>20441301
he wasn't a philosopher, he wholeheartedly rejected philosophy:
>Where speculation ends — in real life — there real, positive science begins: the representation of the practical activity, of the practical process of development of men. Empty talk about consciousness ceases, and real knowledge has to take its place. When reality is depicted, philosophy as an independent branch of knowledge loses its medium of existence.

>>20441310
doesn't matter what he calls himself, SCIENCE!!!1! freaks also tend to deny that a 'scientist' is a natural philosopher. He was a philosopher of history because that's what you call the field that produces metahistorical narratives - he was also a historian, if that's what you mean, yes, he was, but he didn't only write down historical facts and produce interpretations for particular periods or biographies, he created a grand metanarrative. We can discuss wether the metanarrative has merit, I don't think it dies maybe you also, maybe you think it does have merit. That is not the point. He was a philosopher of history

>>20441343
he wasn't a historian, since he didn't take part in the intellectual division of labour of bourgeois society. and he wasn't a philosopher, since the entirety of his thought and action was premised on the overcoming of philosophy. he was a communist

Deleuze

>>20438511
>mitt romney
>conservative
lol. lmao even.

>>20440688
>you have to respect a bunch of degenerates who want to destroy your culture and values, and genocide your people because they pushed for things that fascists already went well above and beyond in their support for their working class

>>20442668
I don't have any values. "Culture" is spook by porkies to keep proles separated from each other so they can't unionize. Christianity is spook anyway, it was always used by elite classes to keep poor people docile and their mouth shut. Christ was communist btw, but then porkies degenerated his teachings

>>20442695
>I don't have any values
yes, we know

>>20434769
dammit

>>20430656

>>20430712
Fpbp

>>20442695
>I don't have any values. "Culture" is spook Religion is a spook
truly you are a warrior of the working class and not some deranged lunatic looking to enslave them and manipulate them according to your egotistical vision lmao

>>20444870
the working class can't be enslaved and manipulated according to an "egotistical vision". it requires the enormous material force of capital to subjugate it, and that force is only available if it's done for the vision of capital accumulation, not according to some pathetic little personal egotisms

>>20444910
yes you are right, thats why communism rests entirely on the crux of complete and utter centralization of capital within the dictatorship of the proletariat which is to be wielded to reshape society according to the whims of deranged egoistical maniacs who end up culturally and hard-genociding the working class people they pretend to serve so they can LARP as heroes of the working class while basically reinventing serfdom of steroids

>>20444931
no, you can't wield an enormous mass of centralized capital according to egotistical whims. it's a bit like the ring in LOTR: you either destroy it or you let it wield you for its own purposes (accumulation).

>>20444958
>you can't wield an enormous mass of centralized capital according to egotistical whims
reality seems to disagree with this "theory"

>>20433055
You work 4 hours a day 4 days a week (if you want) cycling through various vocations at your discretion or whatever is needed at the moment, everything you produce is directly used and consumed by your community, you eat free food at your local cafeteria with other people and socialize, you apply yourself to the sciences, art, music etc. in your abundance of free time likely working on large communal projects of some type to help better society in some way. You withdraw clothes and other goods from the communal till regardless of labor hours you've put in, designs are based off the most cutting edge society has to offer all the various artistic groups trying to outdo each other. You go home to your free house where you don't worry about taxes or paying utilities. Die happy and stress free the end.

>>20444999
Pretty sure you'd need drugs to feel happy in that sort of stagnating, nihilistic and uncompetitive environment.

>>20444999
>regardless of labour hours
Hahahaha

>>20444999
>you rent everything including and all products a designed according to central planning
>you eat at a cafeteria
What the fuck kind of bug man wants to live like this? It sounds like you're just describing your own meme brand of a capitalist dystopia

>>20445047
*including clothing

>>20445047
>>you rent everything including and all products a designed according to central planning
Who said anything about renting?
>you eat at a cafeteria
So? I bet you eat at some greasy McDonalds's everyday lol.

>>20445059
I eat dinner in my home with my family
>so?
So I don't want to live in planet Walmart where I eat on a fucking cafeteria every day

>>20445059
>Who said anything about renting?
It's implied. You can't own private property in communism. The the property has to be rented from the "community", ie the central planning committee which is AKA "the community."

>>20445068
Your "family" is a meaningless abstract construct that does not exist in any real way but to act as a link in the chains that hold you down.

>>20445079
>Your "family" is a meaningless abstract construct
Just like your "community." The only difference being my family is more concrete.

>>20445068
You realize this is a completely different society right? How you personally feel about it is irrelevant we'd all be long dead by the time high communism were achieved anyway and the people born into this society would feel just as uncomfortable and weird about how we currently live.
>>20445071
Does it really matter if you get to live in it as long as you want free of costs? Sounds like an upgrade from current society where most people are actually renting but risk losing their house/apartment constantly and becoming homeless. Also in such a higher stage of communism if there was still a functioning government at all it would serve a strictly managerial nature and would be non-bureaucratic and political.
>>20445079
Your "family" will be your community the individual will not see see themselves as a separate from larger society as they do now.

>>20431551
you cannot be serious.
wages are by far the largest form of worker compensation. are you trying to base it on something else like CEO bonuses?

>>20445059
lmao fuckin hell
>I eat in a cafeteria, where do YOU eat?

>>20445097
>You realize this is a completely different society right? How you personally feel about it is irrelevant we'd all be long dead by the time high communism were achieved anyway and the people born into this society would feel just as uncomfortable and weird about how we currently live.
so not only are you completely oblivious to the fact that many people actually care about more than the material self-interests of their own lives, you simultaneously agree that there is no incentive for me to invest in building your bugman hellworld beyond "maybe generations down the road my family and culture and values will disintegrate and people will eat in a cafeteria every day and consoom product for free"

>>20445134
meant for
>>20445068

>>20444999
Did it ever occur to you that people who live lives beyond smoking weed and playing videogames might actually prefer the opportunity to labour for more hours in exchange for the material and immaterial benefits that your "utopian" society lacks, or hell, that shorter work weeks and hours are not mutually exclusive with living in a society with private property and wage labour, rendering the entire thing pointless?

>>20440870
Profit is not the essential feature of capitalism as a mode of production. Capitalism is characterized by the private ownership of capital, the means of production. If the full value of the labor went to the laborer, as opposed to the capitalist owner, it cannot be called capitalism, even if the “profit” comes from exchange on a free market. So you’re dumb and gay.

>>20445035
I wonder how long such an arrangement would be socially sustainable before people become resentful towards those who dont pull their weight within the community

>>20445188
That's the thing, in theory there is no weight because everything is mass produced by machines. You only work "if you want to." And yet somehow you are still "contributing", even though everyone already has everything they need and want. The contribution aspect is really just a placebo to make it seem like you're doing something meaningful.

>>20445157
no i don't care if some brainwashed wageslave desires to "build communism" or not honestly. its not really surprising someone raised in our selfish, greedy, atomized world would fear the concept of a society built on love, intimacy, community and (actual) freedom.
>>20445188
>prefer the opportunity to labour for more hours in exchange for the material and immaterial benefits
nobody wants to labor in a fucking mundane assembly line or whatever just because, you only "care" about doing it under capitalism because you get rewarded with money in communism you're laboring simply to produce shit your community needs you can do all the extra "labor" you want in your free time like studying to become a doctor, working on your hobbies or whatever the fuck you feel like.
>>20445207
nobody ever mentioned automation but ok (but in that case why would anyone do menial labor at all?) people doing their part is what matters not necessarily how much they do, and unlike capitalism we can actually use the full capacity of humanity to labor since we aren't worried about stretching a small number of employees as far as possible on jobs just to save on the bottom line.

>>20444965
no, history has confirmed it at every step. all great historical events of modernity prove that personal ambitions of "great men" are always just vehicles used to forward the interests of a powerful social class. they have no command of their own.
>>20445008
>you apply yourself to the sciences, art, music etc. in your abundance of free time likely working on large communal projects
>stagnating, nihilistic and uncompetitive environment.
lmao
>>20445071
that's not what rent is
>>20445180
who asked what you prefer
>>20445185
>Profit is not the essential feature of capitalism as a mode of production. Capitalism is characterized by the private ownership of capital, the means of production.
capital-ism is characterized by production being dominated by capital, i.e. by value directed towards multiplying itself. this means that the multiplication of value is the motive of production, and multiplication of value is just another word for the production of profit. so, yes, profit is the essential feature.
if there's generalized production of profit, then it's capitalism. if there isn't, then it's not capitalism.
>If the full value of the labor went to the laborer, as opposed to the capitalist owner, it cannot be called capitalism
if the labourer and the capitalist owner happen to be the same person, then the value of the product goes to the labourer, but it also goes to the capitalist owner, so it's still capitalism.
"capitalist" is not a name of a particular person but of a function: making a sum of money larger than it was by passing it through production of commodities and their sale on the market. this function can be fulfilled by an idler, by an agricultural worker, by a state bureaucrat. but as long as production is based on that role being fulfilled, it follows the same specific laws.

>>20445180
what does anon's "utopian" society lack, in your view? is it exclusive ownership of your luxuries?

>or hell, that shorter work weeks and hours are not mutually exclusive with living in a society with private property and wage labour, rendering the entire thing pointless?
shorter work weeks and hours absolutely are mutually exclusive with growth economies, especially with our current indicators of economic growth. the only force in opposition is the state, and its capacity to enforce labour standards is limited by its need to compete in an international market.

>>20441304
I never said Fascism invented the welfare state you freak, I just said it left us the modern Italian welfare state, which it did. Even your graph shows that actual growth in social spending began in the corporativistic period of the Fascist state, with the 1919 Giolitti reforms being a literal drop in the bucket. Your theory about its cause being a possible return of the Red Spectre in a West filled with news about Stalin's atrocities is laughable. The control of the economical element by the political one is literally one of the core components of fascism according the manifesto btw.
PS: YWNBAW

>>20445091
No. Community is real, at least was hundred years ago. Read mutual aid by Kropotkin

>>20445394
France, Sweden, the UK, etc. weren't fascist and they adopted the welfare state all the same. it's retarded to present it as a contribution of fascism. what was common to all those countries was that they were capitalisms with a rapidly developing industry, and therefore a rapidly developing proletariat.
>The control of the economical element by the political one is literally one of the core components of fascism
except the welfare state is exactly the reverse: it's the measures necessary for the survival of the economic mode of production imposing themselves on the politics of all states, regardless of their particular political tendency: fascists in Italy, Stalinists in the Soviet Union, democrats in the UK, etc.

>>20430971
Underage ban

>>20445604
>France, Sweden, the UK, etc. weren't fascist and they adopted the welfare state all the same
And? What does that have anything to do with anything I said?
>it's retarded to present it as a contribution of fascism
The only thing I presented as a a contribution of fascism was the Italian welfare state, can't you read?
>what was common to all those countries was that they were capitalisms with a rapidly developing industry
Not all the countries you presented had a particularly growing economy, especially France with its constant economic woes. The "rapidly growing" proletariat wasn't growing as much as you think it was, the institution of the welfare state rather was mostly a reaction to the perceived failures of laissez faire in 1929, as can be seen in the graphic you posted. As you say, it was the measures considered necessary for the survival of the economic mode of production (not that its fall would have meant the start of socialism). Also, the institution of the Italian welfare state was coupled with a variety of new approaches, both economic and political, that progressively increased the power of the workers inside companies and statal control over trade and resource production, thus reducing or completely killing the margins of profits of companies that wouldn't comply with current and future changes. Corporativism reached its peak in the SRI, where fascists, free of the conservative bandwagoners, instituted a system very similar to the NEP. Then again, you believe the Soviets were capitalists, so it's useless arguing that with you.

>>20446688
all those countries have experienced a large industrial growth, and consequently a growth in the size of the working class, in the decades leading up to the establishment of the welfare state. let me know once you decide to stop ignoring basic historical facts. I don't have time to google graphs for you

>>20430712
fpbp

>>20445275
>no, history has confirmed it at every step
not really no, history confirmed its extremely common and easily possible, you are just too dumb to recognize the phenomena for what it is. people playing out their ambitions via a bureaucracy of yes man willing to play their role in exchange for fulfilling their own interests. this is precisely what communists do.

amazing how ignorant you people are of the real world outside of your theory lol

>>20445324
well there's the lack of ownership of property, the nature of the property its self, ie. theres too many limitations on its design, limitations on what you can "withdrawal" from the company store, too many limitations on type the food you eat, extreme limitations on housing. theres the whole "not having to eat in a cafeteria" thing lmao. and all around most importantly, id prefer not having to be a rootless cultutreless atheist bugman with no family unit just because some deranged psychopath thought they were all "spooks" and needed to be eliminated so they had their goons genocide everyone to make way for their vision of "class consciousness". you like to preach all about freedoms but in reality your society is EXTREMELY limiting and based on utterly dystopian totalitarian social engineering

Guenon was literally a pseud with curry fever

>>20445226
>just because
i didst say "Just because", are you illiterate?
> you only "care" about doing it under capitalism because you get rewarded with money
you say that like its supposed to be a bad thing lmao. yes I quite enjoy being able to exchange my labour of money, which is an extremely efficient way to translate my labour into virtually anything I want/need. being able to exchange your labour for anything you want/need is true freedom, and you are literally looking to take that away from people. and impose EXTREME limitations

>>20430656
/lit/.

>>20447421
oh sorry I didn't realize you were completely insane

>>20447659
projection much?

probably Crowley for me. I only read esoteric "history" material