/lit/ - Literature

"In short, we do not know who organized the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, or any other related assaults, though it would be a credulous fool who swallowed the (unsupported) word of Osama Bin Laden that his group was the one responsible. An attempt to kidnap or murder an ex-president of the United States (and presumably, by extension, the sitting one) would be as legally justified as the hit on Abbottabad. And America is an incarnation of the Third Reich that doesn't even conceal its genocidal methods and aspirations. This is the sum total of what has been learned, by the guru of the left, in the last decade."

-Christopher Hitchens on Noam Chomsky

>>2039241
this man is clearly a babbling idiot
>America is an incarnation of the Third Reich
wtf?! he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, he should go to school and learn history once again, oh wait, in USA you probably don't learn any of history outside US and instead fill it up with some bullshit about white man being responsible for everything that ever happened to indians, who were perfect and shiny and btw USA is fourth reich hurr durr Bush=Hitler let's kiss Stalin's ass and worship him!

>>2039248

>"This is the sum total of what has been learned, by the guru of the left, in the last decade."
>Hitchens on Noam Chomsky
>Guru of the Left
>Noam Chomsky

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume English isn't your first language.

>>2039241

Oh, Hitchens the Trotskyite that turned neoconservative.

>>2039251

yeah whatsup with that.

>>2039249
>>2039249
well, yup, that's why I even included Stalin - he's empire of evil was bigger and lasted longer by a very large margin, but still all you can hear in USA is "Third Reich that, Third Reich this"

>>2039258

of course I agree, but Chomsky said that America was the new Third Reich, not Hitchens.

>>2039260
whoever said that, he's clearly retarded and needs to be hospitalized

>>2039262

mfw you

>>2039270

>>2039262
So I take it you think America has never done anything bad? You ignorant fuck. America commits just as many atrocities as any other powerful nation has ever done. You're a victim of corporate propaganda, television, press, and the innumerable acts of of ideological distortion committed by American authorities (political and corporate) that Chomsky has spent the past forty years calling attention to.

Politics is for faggots. Linguistics is okay I guess.

>>2039284

You are the ignorant one if you think the only alternative to believing that
>America commits just as many atrocities as any other powerful nation has ever done.
is
>America has never done anything bad

Goddamnit I am the first to criticize America, but Chomsky can't seem to see things within any meaningful historical context.

In 100 years historians will look favourably back at the liberation of the Iraqi people from the bloody tyrant Saddam and not so favourably on moralistic populists like Chomsky.

>>2039296
lol no, learn how an international supported military operation is properly done bitches

>>2039284
We here only have to sing the national anthem every day before classes and at history we learn the Red Coats are bad people and Nazis are people who clearly had everything they wanted and weren't oppressed by anyone. Because Hitler wanted jews dead every single one of the nazis wanted to kill jews from birth.

>>2039299

The removed Saddam and gave the Iraqi people a good chance at democracy and freedom.

Did you even know that the prime minsiter Nouri al-Maliki is a member of socialist international?

>>2039296
That's because in 100 years, all the historians will be funded by Fox News.

>>2039296
lololololololol

>>2039305

>Fox News
>Historians

>>2039241
>"In short, we do not know who organized the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, or any other related assaults, though it would be a credulous fool who swallowed the (unsupported) word of Osama Bin Laden that his group was the one responsible.
Chomsky's only point is that the US never actually produced evidence to prove that Osama bin Laden was the mastermind behind 9/11. Chomsky has argued that it is conceivable that other people were more responsible for funding and planning 9/11 than bin Laden. The point is that the US government hasn't respected the people enough to release the evidence tying bin Laden to 9/11.

>>2039308
That's the point. In the near future, public funding for historians will more or less run dry, allowing the powerful conservative media to shape our historical narratives. Mark my words.

>>2039309

>no evidence that Osama bin Ladin was the mastermind behind 9/11

>>2039314

>>2039314
Yeah, the government has never produced evidence, evidence solid enough to hold up in a court of law, that ties bin Laden to 9/11. Now, I'm no conspiracy theorist. I think that bin Laden had SOMETHING to do with 9/11, but if the government made the evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11, it would probably raise a lot of ugly questions, as well as tie lots of powerful oil people who funded bin Laden but weren't really at part of the central organizational structure of al Qaeda. The government would rather cover their own ass as well as the asses of their rich oil buddies, rather than respect the rule of law and the American people.

Hmm. All I know is that his theory of linguistic relativity is genius, bro. Screw America. I'm a Brit.

>>2039314
All the evidence went up in smoke, didn't it. A lot of groups were claiming responsibility for the attack, obviously all but one of them were claiming falsely. Bin Laden is just the most convenient suspect because accepting his claims provides a causus belli.

>>2039318

What exactly does 'solid evidence' entail for you? What are you looking for?

What about the evidence presented in the exhibits in the Moussaoui trial, and al Qaeda's own multiple taped admissions?

You can speculate on your own paranoid theories about new world order oil tycoons and shady government deals, but why are you so prepared to forgo the need evidence in believing these things and not the really clear and irrefutable fact that al Qaeda were responsible for 9/11 attacks?

>>2039404
>solid evidence
Like I said, evidence solid enough to stand up in a court of law: confessions, transcripts of interrogations, testimony, bank records, etc. The bin Laden confession tape is compelling, but it doesn't meet the level scrutiny that it would need to if one wanted to admit it as evidence in a trial. The FBI admits that it has no "hard evidence" connecting bin Laden with 9/11. Most likely, the CIA has all the records, and they are basically above the law.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

Look, like I said, I'm no conspiracy theorist. I think that bin Laden had SOMETHING to do with 9/11, but his exact role has never been clarified in a trial.

And it's not crazy to suspect that rich (probably Saudi) oil men were funding bin Laden. After all, bin Laden himself was a rich, Saudi oil man with lots of conections. And it's important to remember that the House of Saud actively funded the Wahabi branch of Islam before 9/11. Even a cursory understand of 9/11 would let you see why a trial would be a bad idea for the US government.

Plus, it sets a precedent. If the US can kill bin Laden without even convicting him in absentia, it sends the message that we have the "right" to kill anyone, anywhere, without evidence.

>>2039418

You think there was only one tape in which al Quaeda claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks?

>The FBI admits that it has no "hard evidence" connecting bin Laden with 9/11. Most likely, the CIA has all the records, and they are basically above the law.

The FBI doesn't stand by that comment, it was made by a Publicity Unit Chief who was not an agent nor a counterterrorism expert.

Seriously, look at all the exhibits presented at the Moussaoui trial.

I agree with you, however, that they shouldn't have shot Bin Laden in the face and personally i found the displays of euphoria shown by the American people afterwards to be barbarous deeply disturbing.

Guru of the left, you say?

>>2039424
>The FBI doesn't stand by that comment, it was made by a Publicity Unit Chief who was not an agent nor a counterterrorism expert.
Sauce? And do you have an article that details the FBI's evidence against bin Laden?

I went to a Noam Chomsky lecture earlier this year

>>2039440
Where?

>>2039441
Cardiff

It was just after the middle east uprisings started so he had a lot to say about that
It was very interesting

That people still take Chomsky seriously induces fits of chortling.

“A successful academic may be able to use his success to reach the general public on matters about which he is an idiot.”

This is Chomsky in a nutshell. He may know his way around linguistics certainly, but he's been schooled so many times on worldly affairs by the likes of Hitchens that I can commend him only in that he still has the courage to make a fool of himself at any given opportunity.

>>2039453
Stop trolling.

>>2039453
Sauce please i searched for the filename tinyeye and google image search no such luck

>>2039453
Chomsky is among the worst things that ever happened to linguistics.

"Blah, blah, blah, I'm an anarchist. Blah, blah, blah we need to vote for a lesser evil, even despite the fact that anarchism is against leaders/bureaucracy, and is meant to empower the individual and scorn hierarchy" - Noam Chomsky

>>2039346
Linguistic relativity? That wan't Chomsky, that was Sapir & Whorf-- it's actually heavily criticized greatly by Chomsky & most of the linguistic community, really. These days a very watered-down version of the hypothesis is accepted, but it's still a bit of a "moral grey area", so to speak, for linguists.

Chomsky is, on the other hand, credited for Universal grammar - that is, there are certain fundamental, innate qualities that are shared by all human languages, as though hard-wired into the brain. It's a much more palatable theory, but even here there's a lot of skepticism, especially in light of recent field work with the Pirahã language, which seems to lack recursion.

Chomsky's an intelligent man, I think we can all agree on there. But he's got a nasty habit of poking his head into fields he knows little about and spouting off as though he were an expert.

>Quotes Hitchens

GeorgeCostanza.jpg

>>2039296 In 100 years historians will look favourably back at the liberation of the Iraqi people from the bloody tyrant Saddam

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2039553
to be honest, it's probably true. we did depose saddam, and it'll probably be kind of hard to achieve clarity on all the reasons the Iraq was a terrible idea looking back from a hundred years in the future.

>>2039559

History doesn't really look kindly on imperialism and colonialism anymore.

>>2039559
Go to bed, Karl Rove.

>Chomsky
>Set linguistics back 20 years
>best human ever
>lolno.png

Then again, it's not just Chomsky, it's his academic fanboys who treat him like a fucking demigod and automatically hate everything that suggests he might not be right about everything ever.

>>2039424
When it comes to terrorism, tapes claiming responsibility can't really pass for hard evidence. It's good publicity for the terrorist group if they claim to have perpetrated the act, and so many times a terrorist group is willing to take responsibility for something they had nothing to do with. I don't think that's the case with 9/11, but more evidence would be needed to show that definitively.
And just because Al-Qaeda carried out the attacks doesn't mean that Bin Laden would have been directly involved and responsible for the planning. The documents seized with the Abouttabad raid only serves to support the notion that Bin Laden was largely a spiritual leader, with limited competence and knowledge of the actual day to day operations.

>>2039559
No one gives a fuck about Saddam and no one will in 100 years. There are dozens of super-evil states in Africa and elsewhere and no one gives a fuck about +/- 1 of them. What people will remember is America forcing the rest of the world to eat broken glass at gunpoint while slowly jerking itself off to the soundtrack of Requiem for a Dream.

>>2039605
this argument holds no water at all. "The United States must remove all dictators in all parts of the world at the same time, or else they are being evil and imperialistic."

>>2039613
That is not what I said, you whore. The US are being evil because they only want the fucking OIL and whoever denies this is completely ignorant.

>>2039597
His "fanboys" are simply doing what you'd expect from a group who agree with him.

They agree with him.

Come up with something more substantive.

>>2039613
The US has demonstrated a capacity to be able to remove democratically elected leaders from office without having a full-scale invasion. (See: 1973 Chilean Coup) I fail to see why we couldn't remove Mugabe or Raul Castro from power.

>>2039619

They aggressively ignore contradicting evidence and every single problem associated with Chomskyian theory; (cf. recursion/embedding, "language acquisition device", complete focus on syntax, etc.)
Even if you agree with someone, you still have to remain open and curious about different approaches, that's what this whole science business is fucking about.

>>2039620
Why should we remove Raul?
The Chilean interference was appalling imperialism. Though I do support putting pressures on some nations, these pressures should never be kept secret.

>>2039424
>i found the displays of euphoria shown by the American >people afterwards to be barbarous deeply disturbing.
I thought I was the only one.

Bin Laden and the Suadi elite loathe each other, I find the idea that they had anything to do with each other to be utterly ridiculous.

Man. Fuck this country, sometimes. I love America, I really do - I love its ideals and its history and its people and (parts of) its culture - but sometimes all the imperialism and the corruption and the vileness and the racism and the sheer fucking immovable stupidity, particularly the stupidity of the chattering classes, the supposed elite, just gets to be too fucking much, you know? And I don't think it's going to get better. It's all downhill from here. Our political system is simply dysfunctional. It's not fit to purpose, and there's basically nothing that any of us can do about it, and we're just going to keep going down this stupid, stupid road.

I don't want to leave this country because, Jesus, I do love it and I can hardly imagine NOT living here - but if this goes on I just don't know if I'll be able to stay, you know? And yeah, I know that every country on earth has dysunfction and stupidity, but there seems to be a particular kind of obliviousness and stupid, ignorant bluster in America right now.

>>2039719
Yeah, me too. It was so depressing. Frat boy patriotism, where supporting your country is indistinguishable from cheering at a sports game. The worst part of it all was that people had this attitude, like, it's all OK now, we killed Bin Laden, we won, we defeated him, and now things will go back to how they were before 9/11. It was so bizarre and delusional.

>>2039737
> I love its ideals and its history and its people and (parts of) its culture
> american culture

laughinggirls.gif

>>2039773
>putting spaces in between the arrow and the greentext

hahahaohwow.jpg

>>2039773

>implying American culture hasn't gilded the rusted shipwreck of whatever shit hole you live in.

>>2039742
>infiltrate building in a country where you have no jurisdiction
>kill every unarmed person in a room
>don't reveal any photographs of the body
>dispose of the body in the ocean immediately afterward

They didn't really set a good precedent either

>>2039806

>>kill every unarmed person in a room

They didn't do this.

The rest they did though.

>>2039812
You're right, they only killed five people. Four of them were unarmed though: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=13541431

Still shouldn't have posted that with such haste

I'm not even going to get into his political views, because people will hurr and durr my post into oblivion for it

but as a linguist, Chomsky's specialty, I am not entirely pleased.

He did great things for the field of computational linguistics, making him a superstar, but for other fields in linguistics he was often wrong or even completely fucking retarded

Chomsky is responsible for the halt of progress in many very valuable subfields and theories in linguistics, his specialty, so I can imagine he's probably not infallible in other fields

>>2039822
Oh geez, reading over the Wikipedia article, apparently when they shot Osama in the head the soldier radioed in: "For God and country."

And here I was thinking the West was done killing people for God.

>>2039830
oh God stop the presses let's just shit all over Western society for this, it was a good run

>>2039830

Fuck it. Poetic justice. bin Laden killed plenty of people in God's name.

>>2039830

Actually, I'm not 100% sure, but I think the reason he was killed was because he killed 3000 American citizens and threatened to blow up the remaining 300,000,000 pretty much every Christmas. Not sure, but I think that's why. The "for God and country," was probably just a catch phrase.

>>2039842
That was my problem with it. Killing for country, okay. But stooping to the level of cave barbarians and doing it for the perceived will of an all-loving being?

Vonnegut had a pretty good rant about that in Mother Night.

>>2039851

see:

>>2039851

>>2039851

see:

>>2039850

>>2039851
>he thinks it's better to kill for a political entity than for an idea

nerp

I wonder how many people bitching about Chomsky's work in linguistics actually have studied linguistics.

>>2039863
getting my degree in linguistics this fall

he was great for syntax and all, but fucked over subfields like sociolinguistics for quite awhile

Chomsky is just another pompous Ivy League douchebag with misguided politics.

As if we haven't already had enough of his kind in office, they have to be obnoxious demagogues as well. I don't care that he came from a silver spoon liberal background or has a PhD from an elite college. Some of the shit he says is downright retarded, like bitching about American troops killing Bin Laden. (I'd rather have our boys and girls in uniform fighting against terrorism on terrorism's own soil than having to fight the war on our own)

>>2039863
Oh hey, Don't mind me, just studying linguistics like a motherfucker.

I'd go so far as to say that the majority of Chomsky's critics are themselves linguists.

My mom went to Penn with Chomsky.

He tried to solicit her for sexual favors. When he wouldn't back down she hit him in the gut with a coffee mug and told him to fuck off.

>>2039885

how small he looked there...

>>2039885
That story isn't true and it isn't particularly interesting or well-conceived either

If he's so fin clever, how come I beat him at Trivial Pursuit.

>>2040127
Because intelligence != random knowledge of trivia?

I just listened to a speech of his on global hegemony its depressing how correct he is.

>>2039885

Thanks for informing 4chan that your mother's a tight-assed bitch who should have enthusiastically sucked the dick of an intellectual god like Chomsky when he asked for it.

>>2039241

ITT: everybody ignores that all of these things are basically true (even though Chomsky hardly ever said any of this, lol)

>>2040208

"I hope that fat stupid fuck has fun dying a prolonged, painful death from cancer."

-Noam Chomsky on Christopher Hitchens

>>2040213

lol, oh wow Truman, I didn't even see your little contribution: >>2039296

>>look back favorably on the 'liberation' of Iraq

Oh sure, if you kill somebody who had it coming it doesn't matter how many innocent civilians you slaughter in the process of extending your own totalitarian predominance over the rest of the world.

I also feel obligated to mention how Truman Capote is one of the worst writers of his or any era in American history.

>>2040225

>implying democracy is totality

And I guess nothing is to be said for the innocent civilians that were being routinely killed and suppressed by Saddam Hussein?

History is boring and a crutch for those who lack imagination. It can be spun to justify any ideology. True men make history, they don't live in it. Hitchens and Chomsky are total bores who only appeal to other bores.

>>2040233

All that can be said is that we facilitated Saddam's mad regime when it was in our interests.

>>democracy

no, no, shut up, we didn't invade Iraq for democracy. The US could easily have used its influence in the UN to organize a coup to get rid of him. The only problem is, as anybody who isn't delusional will tell you, putting down Saddam was completely incidental. And I hate to break it to you, but when you're funding reactionary terror organizations who bomb civilians in Libya just a few years later, it's hard to pretend you have the moral justification to declare war on ANYBODY.

nigga, you an idiot

>>2040239

Hitchen's book God is not Great was a new york times best seller.

Anyway, demagogic interest is generally not a good litmus test for quality or wider cultural influence.

>>2040233
The only thing that needs to be said is that it didn't have a beneficial interest to the United States government. Removing Saddam Hussein from power was an arrogant decision, though sympathetic, the consequence of our hubris was a harsh devalue of our global image and a terrible cost on both our economy, money that could have been spent to enrich the standard of American lives. On top of that the democratically elected government in Iraq is partially owned by Iran, our enemy, so the US removed a tyrant and in return we lost everything and galvanized militant Islam.

Smooth move.

Chomsky is one of the smartest bullshiters on the planet.

>>2040239

Chomsky isn't a bore and he doesn't 'spin' history to promote his ideology. As a political figure, his entire legacy has grown out of him simply voicing his own opinions, which happen to be the opinions of an ingenious intellectual.

Just gonna leave this right here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlRoaFTHuE

>>2040242

I don't care about these petty moralistic games you want to play about 'uuuh but they are only after oil blah blah blah' the point is what has happened there? What are the real consequences?

In Iraq they went from an oppressive, murderous dictatorship into a fledgling democracy with a real chance of freedom and cultural progression.

Isn't it interesting how when all these demonstrations against the war in Iraq were taking place, that nobody bothered to invite the leaders of the Iraqi pro-democracy saddam opposition movement?

the left in Iraq wanted the west to topple Saddam, and that is the truth.

And now they have a prime minister who is a member of socialism international, something unthinkable under the Saddam regime.

>>2040252

>>thinks the internal justification used by a demagogic ruling elite is the equivalent of genuine motivation.

>>doesn't understand how class society operates

>>doesn't understand how basic human psychology operates

I can only assume you aren't a very good writer either.

>>2040257

Did you hear? the pro-democracy Iraqi Ahmed Chalabi is actually an iranian spy.

>>2040257

>>implying I care

>>implying any of what you just said justified military invasion, when I've already explain how it doesn't

And saying 'they were just after oil' is a drastic oversimplification. Truman, you're adorable, but this isn't taste in literature we're discussing here. You clearly have no idea the historical context that invasion and occupation occurred under. It was entirely unjust, as even the perpetrators were fully aware (hence using fabrications of weapons of mass destruction, post-911 paranoia to achieve their ends). The USA takes overthrows proclaimed democracies, often ones which function better than its own, when it's in the interests of the ruling class.

>>2040266
>fabrications
Intel gathered from sources including but not limited to the British Secret Intelligence Service. Don't accuse singular countries of making things up when other countries took part in it.

>>2040270

oh, okay.

>>2040266
The rulers rule and the people vacillate and dance.

>>2040272
Also, don't call pre-war Iraq a fucking democracy. What the fuck even

>>2040266
This might sound really trollish but I'll ask you anyway, sincerely too:

Why justify invasion when you can invade anyway? (In other words, you have the physical capability to do so). And how can this justification ever overcome being just rhetoric? (In other words, when you have the rhetoric capability to do so).

What purpose could this justification of such an act serve

>>2040257

You can't look at all these Iraq war, Afghan war as separate events, you have to look at the grand strategy

I recommend you read

A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order

it's free

http://www.archive.org/details/F.WilliamEngdahl-ACenturyOfWarAnglo-americanOilPoliticsAndTheNew

>>2040279

I haven't said that nor do I have any intention of saying it. It isn't true, either.

>>2040289
Well then I'm not sure where you're getting the whole
>The USA takes overthrows proclaimed democracies, often ones which function better than its own, when it's in the interests of the ruling class.
thing.

>>2040285

well, if you're a ruling elite, it serves to convince some of the wage-slave folk to support you in your murderous campaigns, but if you're talking about a LEGITIMATE justification, I guess it's so you can build support for your cause because you don't have the entirety of the media on your payroll and therefore you genuinely need it.

The thing about Iraq/Afghanistan is that neither would have happened if not for 911, and even then those advocating it had to lie about WMDs.

>>2040294

you...don't know very much American history, do you?

>>2040311
As far as I know, there aren't any other countries around the world called the United States of America.

chomsky questioned that the khmer rouge murdered 2 million people.

he is a kike fuckbag

>>2040313

Seriously, what the hell are you babbling about? I didn't say Iraq under Hussein was a democracy, I said the USA has overthrown democracies when it's in the interests of the ruling minority.

Dur.

>>2040318
And you have given examples too. Oh wait no you haven't. You're the one who's babbling.

>>2040324

read this book for examples

A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order

it's free

http://www.archive.org/details/F.WilliamEngdahl-ACenturyOfWarAnglo-americanOilPoliticsAndTheNew

>>2040335

>>2040349

awh shit son, a post-post.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/08/which-intellectuals-have-influence.html

See: Who Doesn't have influence.

Plus, Ive seen numerous videos of him online, Id love to see someone smart with deep knowledge in history and econ challenge him to a debate, but he would probably decline.

>>2040324

oh, you WANT examples? Thank you for making that clear, instead of strawmanning me as having said Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a democracy, son.

Salvador Allende in Chile. Look it up.

>Chomsky is the best human ever
OP's a funny guy

>>2040357
>Salvador Allende in Chile
sup bitch

ancap here,

what are you syndifags talking about? lol

>>2040376
just how much of a useless faggot you are.

>>2040381

lol, you labourfags be so silly

>>Allende in Chile
>>Papandreou in Greece
>>Mossedegh in Iran
>>Sukarno in Indonesia
>>Goulart in Brazil
>>Juan Bosch in The Dominican Republic
>>Jacobo Arbenz Guzman in Guatemala

All of them were replaced by fascist dictators allied with the US though, so no worries.

Jewish academic is socialist, news at nine.


Stopped being relevent with the fall of the wall, bro. Socialism is dead /sadface.

>>2040376
>implying labour unions, formed by the mutual association of individuals who negotiate on a voluntary basis with their employers, are incompatible with anarcho-capitalism

>>2040425

This is a bit of a tricky thing to respond to, since the idea of 'anarcho-capitalism' is incompatible with reality. Besides that I guess you're right.

>>2040421

You're on /lit/, yet you don't seem to comprehend relevance isn't a big part of this board's existence.

>>2039241
Chomsky openly stated how the Nazis were the greatest form of collective madness in history. In fact he justifies world war 2 as reason against it.

And he openly states he accepts that Bin Laden did 9/11 and debunked the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

But he does criticize American foreign policy quite indepthly and makes apt comparisons to other genocidal/maniacal governments of the past.

Hitchens, who use to love Chomsky, just misinterprets him.

>>2040471


Don't argue with me; I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I just like to point out that ancap's dislike of unions, if anything beyond aesthetics, is a contradiction.

>>2040355
That's meaningless. Arguably Bertrand Russell had nil influence on British politics because he was frequently silenced/jailed.

Chomsky is just ignored by mainstream academia, but he has in the past wrecked among the most "influential", chiefly Arthur Schlesinger and William Buckley and had spurred with Michel Foucault.

The difference is whereas Muhammad Yunus and Milton Friedmen get more attention because more media covers their stuff.

>>2040480

Oh god, are you semi-autistic Lenin fanboys still fucking around on my /lit/ after all this time? Hasn't summer ended yet??? I wish I could post that >>2040471 image all over again right now :(

>>2040257
The Iraqi government has as Chomsky described, took a more anti-American stance than they expected. They have openly declared their peace with iran despite America constantly threatening to attack them, among others.

Its just that Iraq's fallout was so huge that any move against the government would result in turmoil.

They didn't care about Iraqi democracy for a second historically. Take Saddam, he was the biggest ally of America back then, he was openly supplied with chemical and gas weapons, he openly massacred rebels, Kurds and Shias with full American knowledge. Goes to show America doesn't give a fuck.

>>2040497
Also goes to show just how abominably terrible the Bush presidency 2000-2006 was (it was still bad after that but not quite as terrible)

Isaac Newton

Pythagoras.

>>2040499

I can't believe that shit lasted for like ten fucking years.

>>2040494
I've always been on /lit/.

Also, the only Communist parties worth their weight in salt are M-L. Unless you prefer Stalinism? Or Maoism? Trotskyism is closer to Leninism than Stalinism, I'd argue.

Dawkins and Hitchens pictures inthe same thread... oh gawds!

>>2040535
Well done on choosing the best Communist ideology.

>>2040535

>>Implying Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, or Maoism are communist

>>Implying I'm a member/supporter of any vanguard communist party.

>suck communism's dick for 60 years
>communism fails
>IT'S CAPITALISM'S FAULT

Nice career. I can't wait till he's as dead as Howard Zinn.

>>2040266
>The USA takes overthrows proclaimed democracies, often ones which function better than its own

>Saddam-era Iraq worked better than the US
>it was also a democracy

Your shit is all fucked up, son.

>>Leninism

A political front entirely lifted from the German Kautsky; shallow, nationalistic and deluded, and utterly and completely abandoned by its namesake and the entire Soviet government once it had served the purpose of manipulating the Russian people through pseudo-philosophical & poorly written propaganda leaflets. Fucking politician.

>>Stalinism

Synonymous with totalitarianism, therefore intrinsically not communist.

>>Maoism

Chinese idealist doctrine with only superficial ties to Marxism which were only attained through Lenin's bastardization of Marx.

>>Trotskyism

Soviet neo-liberalism. The man was no more genuinely socialist than his political rivals, and he offered no particularly incisive critique of anything. He certainly never said anything countless others hadn't already, or that hadn't been predicted by genuine Marxists way back when he was in the seat of power.

>>2040545

I don't think you know what the word 'communism' means. I'm sure you think that you do, however.

>>2040555

Son if you keep talking to yourself, mommy and I might have to consider sending you to a psycho-farm somewhere.

see: >>2040318 then, when you're finished crying: >>2040393

>>2040560
I bet people often tell you how much they don't like you, don't they?

>>2040563

lol no, almost never. I'm just very opinionated when it comes to important things. My politics are well liked, admired even, among those with whom I associate.

Thanks for being mad though.

>>2040571
I don't like you or your politics.

Marxist-Leninist here!
>>2040494
You dislike other ideologies because of your belief in a self-admittedly impossible one?

>>2040571
Wow, you're really humble too. I mean, it's not often you meet such a noble class-warrior that ALSO displays such humility....

>>2040560
>Son if you keep talking to yourself, mommy and I might have to consider sending you to a psycho-farm somewhere.


lol what the fuck? This doesn't even....lolwut??

ITT: another anarchist hijacking a thread by confusing the fuck out of people.

>>2040575

You don't know what my politics are.

>>2040576

What are you talking about? You're a Marxist-Leninist who doesn't believe in Marxism? Can't argue with that.

>>2040578

>>class warrior

lol retard spotted.

>>2040587

idk, it's just a disrespectful response. You called me son because you misread my post, out of context, so I told you, rather subtly, to go fuck yourself. Sorry you were too stupid to pick up on it.

>>2040589

Right.

>>2040600
Holy fuck you're horrible :P. But I bet right now you think you're "winning" or something.

It's rough being 15, isn't it?

>>2040600
So you're an anarchist? That's pretty rare, on the internet.

>>2040576
>Marxist-Leninist here!

Never a good way to start out a post.

>>2040610

Well let me put it this way champ, I think that if any of you knew what you were talking about well enough to make any arguments, I would win those arguments.

And not really, it's a lot harder being 23 in the worst country in the industrialized world. Take my word for it.

It's also pretty bold of anyone here to claim I'm 'hijacking' the thread, since I've been around for a good long time defending old Chomskers. If I've gotten a bit heavy on the witticisms of late it's probably because I've smoked a good amount of le marijuanas tonight since involving myself with this thread. However, if you have any legitimate questions/criticisms of anything I've posted, I'd be happy to respond. But you don't seem to, you just seem angry at an anonymous poster online, so sorry if I find that funny.

>>2040622
Why would that be?

>>2040623
ahahahaha fucking 23 y.o. stoner marxist

someone cool please take 23 y.o. stoner marxist as a trip, TIA

>>2040623
>However, if you have any legitimate questions/criticisms of anything I've posted

lol dude...no one cares

>>2040623
>it's a lot harder being 23 in the worst country in the industrialized world

You're a real crybaby, you know that?

>>2040619

I wouldn't call myself an anarchist or a communist on principle, but if anybody wants to label me as either I'm not really gonna argue.

Unabashed socialist reporting in.

He doesn't like pornography.
Nuts to that bozo.
He's on shit tier with Ebert.

>>2040626

well spoken, comrade.

>>2040628

no, you do. You're still responding. You don't even have the defense of being so high you're effectively incapacitated. You care, you're just intimidated. But I really am a nice person, when spoken to with some respect and not just ignorant vitriol.

>>2040631

I didn't say that it was objectively hard. Of course many many people have it worse, but it's harder than the other thing, being underage or whatever, definitely.

>>2040645
You're being trolled.

>>2040649

lol, you're being stupid.

>>2040645

>yfw
>stoned as fuck response, regardless of whether you are sober irl or not.

>hey here's another noam chomsky thread i wonder what all the fuss is about
>open thread
>TROOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSS
love ya, 4chan

>>2040535
Leonism? Council Communism? The schools influenced by Pannekoek or Luxemburg?

>>2039251
>implying all the founders of neoconservatives aren't just jewish Troskyites that turned to the republican party due to the Left switching it's position on Israel.

>>2040653

I'm at a point where I'm not as high as I'd like to be (which I'm about to fix), but I don't really take that as an insult. Some of my favorite discussions I've ever had have been with people while they're stoned or even tripping. Though I know a lot of interesting people, to be fair.

Now, to expand on that 'lol i trol u' thing, the truth is /lit/ doesn't know how to troll. Y'all incapable of it. I respond to obvious troll posts because I think it's funny to watch them think getting a response, even a sardonic one, equals victory.

I'll be back in a minute, gonna go smoke another bowl. Carry on not discussing literature niggas.

>>2040666
not really, they're mostly ex-leninists who were disillusioned by the excesses of stalinism. they turned from the materialism of marxism to the materialism of liberalism as a means to make sense of the world, as a secular religion.

>>2040670
yes we're just puppets dancing on your string, that's it

>>2040673
I don't see how anything I says disagrees with anything you posted.

>>2040678

I wouldn't go that far. I actually agree with some people ITT. You, however, seem to have some kind of misplaced sense of superiority just because you aren't standing by anything you said earlier, if indeed you've posted anything other than bitch-fits. You're certainly more pissed off that I am atm, which is not at all.

SmOaKW33Derrydaynigguh

>>2040625

Calling yourself a Marxist-Leninist or even a Marxist nowadays is taboo for some reason. Oh that's right mass-murder

>>2040742
implying there hasn't been more suffering and death at the hands of capitalism.

>>2040752
that is literally the best fucking argument for communism. communism has slaughtered less people than capitalism? woo-fucking-hoo, now i'm psyched about communism! viva la revolucion!

>>2040754
sarcastic or not, isn't it better to aim for something that harms less people?

>>2040759

*fewer

but that's not really a legitimate argument. We're really just talking about one fascist state verses the other. The USA has and has always had more power over external countries than the USSR ever achieved, so it's been able to cause more death, chaos, and repression of freedom. But that doesn't make the Soviet system better or preferable..

This thread is really sad.
Nobody knows anything anymore. The notion of truth; both past and present, is a bad joke, the internet compounds this, it's a tapestry of interwoven lies and fantasy and speculation and animalistic paranoia, mass paranoia, everyone thinks they know who runs the world and how things really work and "WHAT REALLY HAPPENED". If you think you really know everything and what the best sort of socio/political system is you're an egomaniac, most people are.

Now back to the delusion.

>>2040771

Thank you for that laughably idiotic contribution.

>>2040771

The truth has always been subjective.

>>2040767

I'm only talking about the systems involved, not the states that operate them, or their past deeds. If you want to talk about the effects of a system, you can just look at the effects on a smaller sample. And this is from person who knows next to nothing about systems science.

>>2040784

oh, well let me assure you sir, "The USSR is about as interested in socialism as America is in democracy." Guess who said that.

The failures and crimes of these powers don't in themselves discredit the values they attempt to associate themselves with, but only the ones which they actually are utilizing, respectively totalitarianism and class society.

>>2040254
implying that pornstars are locked into rather small rooms and practically forced to fuck?
lulul

>>2040782
No Problemo. Always happy to make people laugh.

>>2040254

>>2040797
>>2040806

If you actually watch the video, he makes a pretty good argument. I don't really have an opinion on this matter, however, because having an opinion on that is stupid. Sex will always be a commodity.

Still, anybody who thinks that opinion itself is enough to discredit Chomsky isn't worth talking to anyway.

>>2040254
>never heard of Hustler

That nigga lying as fuck.