/lit/ - Literature

>>20293556
I only wish people would spend at least a fifth of the time they spend on bitching Ligottis pessimism reading his short fiction instead

>>20293556
>because…I JUST DONT WANT TO OK?!!

>>20293556
>writes half a page of dancing around the criticism to hide his lack of a rebuttal
lol

>>20293556
If the assets and debts of life are so imbalanced that it is better to not have been born, there's no other option than to kill yourself. There's obviously something that redeems life in order for you to continue living it. It's like if you call yourself an ethical vegetarian but still wear fur: It belies an inconsistency in your values.

>>20293597
>There's obviously something that redeems life
Fear of death? I mean come on, you think its some redemptive nugget the pessimist is waiting for? The sunset that finally "clicks?"

There need be nothing but good old fashioned mammalian fear of the dark to keep one prisoner in life.

>>20293604
Hundreds of thousands of people around the world each year overcome that fear of death and take their own lives. At least the opioid-addled day laborers who neck themselves just do it and don't hide behind academic posturing to act like their neurosis is some kind of truth. Pessimists are in love with melancholy like a teenage girl who loves the Smtihs.

It is not necessarily a single nugget, but if life is obviously good enough to continue living: go through the motions, get out of bed, interact with others, there is some value in it, is there not? There is an escape for your eternal decay, and wouldn't you want to end it all right now instead of dying at 80, shitting your pants and being fed through straw, becoming a testament to the grotesque decay of life? A suicide now (When you are able-bodied) seems to be the much preferable option than a death after the onslaught of aging. If it only gets worse from here, why not end it right now?

>>20293556
Ligotti... refuted by his chin

>>20293580
>>20293583
These lol. It was a non-answer.

>>20293556
I love being alive so much. I love the pain as much as the joy now.

>>20293673
do you really

>midwit thread
His logic is completely sound. He's only claimed it's better to not be born, not that suicide is preferable to living. Those are not the same. So to respond with "just kill your self lol" is to be retarded as he never claimed to prefer suicide to his current predicament.

>>20293696
How is never having been born different from the experience of death? If life's sufferings outweigh life's benefits, why continue living?

>>20293653
So like literally every incel?

>>20293574
Yeah, I'm a big Ligotti fan but I don't give a shit about his world view. I just like reading his fiction.

>>20293707
>How is never having been born different from the experience of death?
Because if you were never born in the first place then you would never experience death? Or anything else?

>>20293718
After dying you don't experience anything else as well. Seems to me like a person ends up in the same place you started.

Is this guy actually taken seriously? This is the most hilarious piece of shit drivel I’ve read this week. Please don’t tell me he has a sizable following or influence in any circles.

>>20293556
i think it is because they expect the world to fuck them. while optimists live like nothing bad can ever happen then there comes a day where their ideals are challenged. they can decide tht this is a momentary thing but each issue stacks on top of one another like shit that hasnt been flushed. one day the shit will touch their ass and they an hero

The meme seems to be duration. Suiciders conflate duration of life with the irrepairable damage of being born.

>>20293707
Pre-birth may be different from post-life.

>>20293597
The amount of suffering required to kill yourself may be greater than the sum of suffering of living out your whole life.
>crackheads are in such a state that makes it easy
Not my problem.

>>20293733
Materialist assumption.

Shitty non-argument. If there's enough suffering/badness to justify choosing not to be born, there's enough suffering/badness to justify choosing not to continue living. The point of time of "being born" is not materially different than the point of time "the present" in terms of avoiding future suffering. Pessimists who don't kill themselves ARE hypocrites, and also stupid because they assign negative value to suffering but fail to assign positive value to joy/pleasure. Even autistic utilitarians manage that much.

I don't know anything about Ligotti but this screenshot, but based on everything I know about him he's a pathetic brainlet.

>>20293764
>to justify choosing not to be born
and how does one choose that exactly

>>20293764
>If there's enough suffering/badness to justify choosing not to be born, there's enough suffering/badness to justify choosing not to continue living.
Killing yourself requires action, not simply a choice.
>avoiding future suffering
Completely beside the point. A distraction that catches brainlets.
>hypocrite
A compliment, not insult.
>he is pathetic
Female-derived status insult

>>20293764
he pretty much wrote about people like you.
for example, life is shit people shouldn't be born. so you say kill yourself.
but its not about killing yourself its about acknowledging that it is shit

>>20293761
>Implying Ligotti is not writing from a materialist position himself

>>20293779
It seems like simple analytical work to prove Ligotti's argument. I mean, promortalism simply does not equal antinatalism.

A pessimist is free to renounce life without going through the arduous step of self-termination, as if it were so simple.

>>20293556
So i get the part about why he doesn’t want to have been born, but where is the part explaining why he continues to live?

>>20293681
Yes. Only 70 years left I am going to enjoy them. That's all there is anon, beauty and joy. Ugliness and suffering are just aspects of the same.

>>20293814
Very simply because his opinion on existence buys him no special privilege towards the act of suicide. Its really not hard.

>claim it is better not to exist than to exist
>have the option to stop existing at any time
>chose to exist anyway

Yeah, nah. He's full of shit.

>>20293556
This Ligotti dude writes like a 16 year old dude on /pol/
Is he an established author or exactly that?

>>20293782
It's shit enough for other people not to be born. Oh but it's different for Ligotti, it would require ACTION not to continue living (as if living doesn't require constant action). Boohoo, it's about acknowledging, not taking action... You're an idiot.

>>20293773
Noose, bullet, long fall sudden stop, the options are truly endless.

>>20293779
>Killing yourself requires action, not simply a choice.
Staying alive requires action, not simply a choice. You've presented a distinction without any significance. You're also an idiot.

>>20293807
>A pessimist is free to renounce life without going through the arduous step of self-termination, as if it were so simple.
No, he's not free. He's encouraging others to choose not procreating which could be a strategy to ensure more resources for himself. That he would encourage others not to live, while continuing to live himself, suggests he's arguing in bad faith in order to get an advantage over others. Specifically, advantage over anyone foolish enough to take the words of an obvious hypocrite seriously.

I'm not asking them to kill themselves, I'm telling them to.

>>20293838
why would anyone take action when it doesn't matter why waste my energy on offing myself . im not agreeing or disagreeing. i dont know about ligotti. but it sounds like he was somewhat of a nihilist

>>20293556
Lingotti pussies out here, just as much every other anti-natalist.

>>20293845
>why would anyone take action when it doesn't matter why waste my energy on offing myself
Ligotti's pessimists literally do argue that it matters. They say non-existence is better. Bawww but muh energy, why k-k-kill myself, I don't need to... You're either an idiot or a coward, your choice.

>>20293604
>Fear of death?
Fear of what? Pain? Non-existence? Conscience annihilation?
If it's better to not have been born then why the botter to return to the void?

>>20293850
are you reading or are you just arguing to be correct?

You do understand to refute Ligotti you would have to prove pre-birth = post-death, right?

>>20293854
see >>20293857

I don't make the assumption that death is equal to birth so I'm perfectly justified in my beliefs. I will not substantiate an existence where there wasn't one, nor will I end one where there is.

>>20293838
>Staying alive requires action
No it doesn't. I can stay alive in my bed all day. When I'm hungry I am driven to eat. Not eating requires effort. I love eating.
>Noose, bullet, long fall sudden stop, the options are truly endless.
Vulgar depictions of the suffering of choosing to die. Most of the suffering is found not in the act.
>He's encouraging others to choose not procreating which could be a strategy to ensure more resources for himself.
True.

>>20293857
Does Ligotti believe in an afterlife?

>>20293879
I doubt it. I know he probably realizes beginning and ending a life are two separate states not deserving of one overarching standard, though.

>>20293856
Are YOU reading? You made a critical error in understanding the text being discussed. I'm ANGRY. That's different from motivated reasoning, but I seriously doubt you're intelligent enough to understand what I'm talking about.

>>20293857
Not true at all, feel free to bust out the formal logic to prove your point but you can't, because you're wrong.

>>20293862
An anti-natalist ideology, if universally adopted, would end the existence of the species, thus violating your stated position. It is precisely this internal inconsistency in the pessimist position that suggests hypocrisy designed to gain advantage over others.

>>20293865
I see you there. Your post is too imbecilic to merit a response, but I do see you there.

>>20293604
>my philosophy is about being a pussy, but like, existentially.

>>20293884
> I know he probably realizes beginning and ending a life are two separate states not deserving of one overarching standard, though
How did he reach that conclusion? In what ways can pre-birth differ from post-life if there is no afterlife?

>>20293696
No you don’t understand - if he thinks all life is meaningless suffering, he should kill himself so that he doesn’t subtract resources from those of us who don’t live that way.

>>20293888
>bust out the formal logic
You think you can solve this with formal logic? The point is its an existential question that rests on god-knows-what sorts of physical and metaphysical possibilities.

I'm saying no one can answer it. There are unknowable* unknowns and pre-birth/post-death are two examples.
*speaking from a living frame of reference

>>20293896
>In what ways can pre-birth differ from post-life if there is no afterlife?
Prove there's no afterlife and that's an argument worth having.

>>20293888
youre taking things too seriously. as i have said i dont know much about ligotti. and i actually just learned what an anti natalist was. so excuse my ignorance. you dont have to be a dick.

>>20293904
You made a point about refutation that is incorrect, which you would see if you understood formal logic at even an Aristotelian level. Go back to philosophy 101 and this time actually pay attention to the lectures on formal logic.

>>20293556

>>20293914
Don't worry about me, you say you can prove the nature of those states with formal logic? I really want to see this.

>>20293857
No I don’t. That’s the equivalence Ligotti wants his interlocutor to rest on, because it’s patently absurd. The reality is that a human community is better off without such miserable wretches who view the continuation of their mortal existence - a project in which we all, whether we recognize this fact or not, are mutually supporting one another - as a violence done upon them. If they really think that way they are a danger to myself and the health of my community. Their ideology might be convincing to the softer minded of my tribe, and I might find myself surrounded by demoralized pessimists lacking the will to do anything but write books about their misery. So, it is a defensive mechanism for me to demand suicide of the pessimist. Besides the fact that it follows naturally from the substance of his self-reported experience, which is another point for my case which he has failed to repudiate in OP’s excerpt, as we’ve all pointed out.

>>20293923
So all that bullshit just to argue the pessimist should suicide because you want him to? This puts Ligotti on more solid footing than I thought he had.

>>20293912
I forgive you, but I will not stop being a dick. There are snakes in this thread. Anti-natalists spread this ideology of misery and convince good people not to have children, making the lives of good people worse, robbing their potential children of existence, and ensuring for themselves more resources and ultimately political control. There are hundreds of thousands of women who were convinced that having children was a bad thing during their fertile years, and only as menopause approached did they change their minds and discover that it was too late to have children. I know one such woman personally and it's devastating, and it hurts all the more because I tried to convince her back when she still had a chance, but she chose not to listen to me and instead to listen to anti-natalists.

Existence is NOT only suffering. That's a load of horseshit, and anyone who tries to convince other people of that deserves to be beaten.

>>20293932
>t. arguing in good faith

>>20293927
>you want him to
Thick headed aren’t you? My logic elapses yours because it’s grounded in human collective life, not the abstract formal accountancy of sufferings and pleasures.
It’s not only that I “want” him to. I demand he do it, as a defense to my community and for consistency with his own beliefs.

>>20293932
Hold on, what's the ethnicity of this liggoti character?

>>20293937
>Thick headed aren’t you?
I suppose so. Be careful or you might display some kind of personal agenda.

This argument reminds me of Hegel’s apt response to the phrenologists, that if they think the Spirit is reducible to a bone we should bash their skulls in to complete the experiment and see what happens to spirit when it’s all busted up.

>>20293909
I can't prove there is no afterlife. If we assume there is an afterlife, then there are 2 options. (1) our soul, or ego, or what have you leaves the material realm but persists in some space not currently understood by people, which means pre-birth is necessarily different from post-death or (2) reincarnation, where pre-birth=post-death anyhow. If we assumed the other option, that there is no afterlife, how can we reach the conclusion that pre-birth differs from post-death?

>>20293938
He is Italian and polish. So chances are high he has jew in him.

>>20293556
>>20293696
Pessimists are among the most intellectually uninteresting sourpusses ever. Been this way for hundreds of years. I guess those who are interesting don't have the same image and identity, and aren't understood as pessimists. Pessimism is then just dribbling weak rationalisations for their personal feelings.

'Better to never have been born' is perfectly correct if you agree with the premises and don't bother to examine for complexity, just as Ligotti is perfectly correct here in line with it (although contrary to what the vast majority of his fellows feel). The problem is, it is obvious that their antinatalism and pessimism did not come about through finding a little logic puzzle thoroughly convincing. If it were just so hard-hitting and logical, they wouldn't neglect fleshing it out and encountering problems. It is also obvious here Ligotti is using the infantile ad hoc logic puzzle to cop out.

>>20293950
>how can we reach the conclusion that pre-birth differs from post-death?
We of course cannot. This bolsters the argument that birth and death, however treated, should probably not be evaluated on equal footing.

This allows things like lamenting birth while delaying death.

>>20293959
How is "I don't think people should have babies and I don't want to kill myself" a logic puzzle?

>>20293922
I essentially did so at >>20293764. Ligotti's argument in the OP screenshot isn't about the superiority of non-existence over existence per se, it's about the hypocrisy of people who espouse that belief yet do not kill themselves (he is arguing that such people are not hypocrites, and more generally that one does not follow from the other). He is wrong, of course, because the argument that non-existence is superior rests on the potential for future suffering, which is independent of the point of time of the subject (ie, pre-birth or the present). For either point of time, there's a potential for future suffering, and IF the conclusion is valid (that non-existence is superior to existence), then the subject in the present MUST kill himself to avoid future suffering, or he is acting illogically and choosing to suffer in the future. Another alternative is that the pessimist who chooses to live doesn't really believe what he espouses to others, and is acting in bad faith to get other people to choose not to have children so that he or his own children can have access to more resources that would otherwise go to the children of other people.

It's one of the most despicable things a person can do. For that reason, any pessimist who refuses suicide should be beaten for their attempt to deprive others in such an underhanded method.

>>20293972
The resource strategy argument was funny at first, but now its coming across a little paranoid.

>>20293707
dying hurts

>>20293835
it's not like you press a button and die

>>20293972
Your argument is correct only if Ligotti believes that death itself is not suffering. If the experience of death creates more suffering than will living the rest of your life, then it is consistent to believe that it would be better to live than die, even if it would have been even better never to have been born at all.

>>20293556
You missed out the part where he explains why they don't kill themselves

>>20293980
Yeah bitch it’s paranoid. Now face the wall.

>>20293961
Both pre-birth and post-death are equivalent in the most relevant aspect of pessimism, the state of not being alive. What am I missing?
>>20293983
So continuing to live outweighs suffering?

>>20293983
Not as much as continuing to live.

>>20294000
>Now face the wall.
Only if you use lube.

>>20294014
Touché

>>20293992
I don't see it. Death is suffering, but death is also inevitable so it can't tip the scales unless suicide is especially awful somehow. If anything suicide would be desirable since you would gain some control over how you'll die and might be able to minimize your suffering.

>>20294002
>What am I missing?
For one, the antinatalists argument over initiating birth, whatever the pre and post state, lies with a choice, a choice definitely privileged with regard to the living. One can exercise their will on that choice without the need to rush the encounter with the post-death state. This is all he is arguing. It doesn't cheapen the position even in the face of the unknowable.

I will always offer that Benetar's asymmetry does use an assumption on pre-birth, which is why I never wield it.

>>20294027
>If anything suicide would be desirable since you would gain some control over how you'll die and might be able to minimize your suffering.
This is the first valid argument I've seen against the OP. Even if death is so bad, wouldn't it be better to get there faster? Really depends on value of time spent living first same time spent dead and the quality of either.

People will still be gummed up by a survival mechanism which can operate well even in the face of pessimism.

>>20294038
*value of time spent living OVER same time spent dead

>>20293556

He's right, but he's really not helping his case with that pretentious and defensive prose treatment, which is exactly the sort of thing that sets normies' teeth on edge and instinctively gets them to double down on "You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded. If you hate life just kill yourself." He even acknowledges that there's an impasse between the normie mind (such as it is) and the le edgy reflective nihilistic type.

"callowness", "blithely jeer", "crass intellect". Even when the normie doesn't know the exact definition of all of these words, he reads/hears each one as a dog whistle of some fag trying desperately to sound smart. In a way, the normie knows better.

>>20294044
>"callowness", "blithely jeer", "crass intellect". Even when the normie doesn't know the exact definition of all of these words, he reads/hears each one as a dog whistle of some fag trying desperately to sound smart. In a way, the normie knows better.
You got to love a little piss in the argument.

>>20294027
Death could tip the scales if you believe that you will be more accepting of death in old age than at a young age. I personally think this is probably true, and assume that I will be more "ready to die" when I am 80 than I am now. But I am not a pessimist and otherwise am more sympathetic to your arguments than Ligotti's.

>>20293673
>I love being alive so much

wtf is wrong with u??

>>20294048

>when I am 80
Quite a first-world expectation you've got there.

>>20293673
Yeah but will your kids?

>... he feels the looming of madness and wants to find death before losing even such ability.

>But as he stands before imminent death, he grasps its nature also, and the cosmic import of the step to come. His creative imagination constructs new, fearful prospects behind the curtain of death, and he sees that even there is no sanctuary found. And now he can discern the outline of his biologicocosmic terms: He is the universe’s helpless captive, kept to fall into nameless possibilities.

>From this moment on, he is in a state of relentless panic.


- Zapffe

>>20294069
Might be unrealistic given my family history. Anyway this all raises an interesting question of whether the pessimist would choose to live forever if the possibility arose. There is, I think, a non-zero chance of such a possibility within the next generation. I would expect the answer to be no, but that doesn't seem consistent with the idea of avoiding suicide, since you would at that point be committing suicide by omission.

>>20293556
Right, dying isn't the same as never having been born. Pseud wasted a lot of words to not say much.

>>20293597
The fear of death is worse than all the other pains of life apparently. These people are pieces of shit, lying about suffering while knowing nothing about it.

>>20294130
we're hardcoded by nature to fear death more than anything

>>20293556
Seems like mental gymnastics. Ligotti should steer clear of philosophy. He's not good at it.

>>20294162
How is "I don't think people should exist but I'm not ready to die either" mental gymnastics. Sounds like two honest opinions one is perfectly capable of holding at once.

>>20294137
>hardcoded by nature
ISHYGDDT

>>20294137
nature is so gay

>>20294171
>I don't think people should exist
>I don't want to stop existing

The contradiction is pretty clear.

>>20294080
If they're strong they'll make it, and breed a great race of men

>>20294195
Where? How does the pessimist know he will stop existing? All he knows he can control is someone else's birth.

>>20294195
*i don't think people should come into existence

>>20294171
As the other anon said, the problem seems to be with existing. So logically according to the pessimist not existing is preferable to existence, and this is why never being born is favored in the first place. But if not existing is the preferred state, rationally the goal would be to expedite the process. The most efficient way to do so is suicide.

The reason it's gymnastics is that Ligotti is trying to mask the fact that he's saying that never existing is preferable because the suffering of the world is too great, but ceasing to exist (by suicide) is somehow worse than existing with the suffering that makes living not worth it.

>>20294239
>So logically according to the pessimist not existing is preferable to existence,
There is a difference between exercising a choice to force existence and willingly ending your own. Just because you can view suicide as an as easy feat, involving no major deliberation or opposition from raw instinct, does not mean the pessimist can or will.

An antinatalist does not need to kill themselves to justify their philosophy.

>>20294270
I'm looking at it purely in logical terms with all messy human considerations left out of it to get to the essence of the matter. What he says is logically contradictory, but that's really not what it's about. On a human level the fear of death prevents the pessimist from finding the most efficient route to relieving themselves of the existence they deplore. That's understandable. Ligotti could have just said that he doesn't support suicide because dying is scary and killing yourself is grotesque. That is a much neater way to package his position on suicide. Instead he has to twist up this logical pretzel disingenuously by saying that somehow never being born ( which is just not existing in perpetuity) is different from ceasing to exist (and then not existing in perpetuity.) Even though the end results are logically identical

>>20294326
>Even though the end results are logically identical
This is the point I get hung up pn, Ligotti aside.
I mean, how can we know? It seems logic could only prove that I am not in the state sandwiched between birth and death and not that either betrays a similar state.

>>20294338
Ligotti's Conspiracy is explicitly materialistic, so that argument is frankly one that doesn't need to be considered in this case, though that said antinatalism is not inherently atheistic. Ligotti's only real arguments against suicide are that it might be more painful than life, which baring freak accident someone as ostentatiously intelligent as Ligotti doesn't need to factor into his argument, or that it is possible to alleviate the sufferings of existence by effectively killing your consciousness.

>>20294402
I think I read Ligotti plays the ponies once.
He should have argued "Don't have them kids but I'm gonna bet on horseys before I check out senpai."

>>20293556
They should though

>>20293556
Because something like Julius Bahnsen's palingenesis is true. Not every pessimist is a reductive physicalist.

>>20293597
To have been born is to have instantly accumulated all of the debts and none of the assets, which are only gained by living. The debts are not discharged on death, so having been born already it is best to live as long as possible.

>>20294411
Lmao

>>20294419
>Julius Bahnsen's palingenesis
Break it down for me. I can never find much on Bahnsen but I know he is one of the few pessimists that argues for death not being an end to suffering.

I mean Ligotti does kind of make sense. If I have a chronic illness like diabetes I won't kill myself over it but I wouldn't want to pass it on to someone else either. Same way with existence, once you have it it's not bad enough to kill yourself over but it is bad enough to not merit passing down to someone else. At least that's the way I see the argument. Not really something I agree with but it does make sense

>>20294539
In my understanding of antinatalism, the only way to be hypocrite would be to have kids in light of your views.

For suicide, you would only be a hypocrite if you were also promortalist. This is why the distinction exists. But even then, you could say the PM merely hasn't an heroed yet.

>>20294555
i think the assumption in the suicide argument against AN is that if you believe you have a moral obligation to prevent suffering that your unborn children will experience, you should have the same moral obligation to yourself to prevent the suffering that you will experience through suicide, which i disagree with
it's up to me to decide whether i will suffer or not, but i can't impose that on others by creating or killing them

>>20293937
Fuck your community.

>>20294539
I want to pass my autism down

Anyways what's some "pessimistic philosophers" besides Schope and Cioran? I know Mainlander and Michaelstadter but that's it

>>20294987
Oh and I know Von Hartmann too

>>20293711
Incels are right about everything.

>>20293556
I hate this pic. I read that book ages ago and remember the argument as compelling but seeing it now it's literally just "lmao u disagree? brainlet."

Ligotti and all the pessimists that don't kill themselves are just BITCHES. What a fucking stupid argument in the OP.
If not being born is preferable than living because of all the future suffering you will not have to endure, then stopping to live right now is preferable than continuing living because you will avoid all the sufferings the future is holding.
By making a strong distinction between a teoretical possibility (ie not being born in the fisrt place) and a choice that requires action (ie killing yourself) you are robbing yourself of the agency that allows you influence reality according to your preference, that is either weakness and cowardice, which makes a pathetic wimp not worth listening to, or hypocrisy, since you know that life is indeed preferable to death (which every mentally sound individual knows) and for whatever reason keep spouting this self indulgent faggotry that is pessimism.

>>20295001
>since you know that life is indeed preferable to death
We don't know that, we know that it's uncertain.

FOOLS
Birth and Death are the same thing.

>>20293673
can one 'enjoy' being pessimistic? there's a kind of certainty to it. like all great dogmas.

in regards to the anti-natalism question, i think it is generally a matter of empathy (ethically that is; people can be anti-nat through pure selfishness). you want to spare it suffering and ruin but there are also people already in existence that need communication and aid. would people be less lonely if we weren't procreating? would we be forced to move outside of our direct familial unit? like breeding pets. would all the strays and orphans have places to go if people stopped propagating fresh ones deliberately?

>>20295156
>would people be less lonely if we weren't procreating? would we be forced to move outside of our direct familial unit?
please to be enjoying in your pooping hole?

>>20293556
Everybody is forgetting to mention that Ligotti is severely mentally ill (anhedonia, agoraphobia, depression, all caused by taking large amounts of drugs in his youth) but somehow never puts the two and two together that this is simply the reason for his pessimistic attitude, and that other people with a "normal" brain obviously don't feel like going against their biological imperatives. Even S.T. Joshi, a simple literary critic who's one of his biggest admirers calls him out on his bullshit

>>20294987
Krishnamurti and Unamuno

>>20293583
>>20293580
>>20293668
He means that, because of the inevitable suffering connaturated to existence, it's better to not be born at all. But once you're born, killing yourself might increase that suffering even more, so once you're here the best choice might be to simply trod along, instead of causing yourself physical and emotional pain (not to mention the pain you'd cause to the ones around you by killing yourself).

I don't kill myself because I don't want to experience dying and because I am a pussy. Has no relevance to whether this or that idea is wrong.

>>20294979
Ok? You’re not part of it then. Go back to your cave, slime. We’ll be over here, growing food, having children, and fucking our wives.

Reminder that antinatalists have won. There are over 70 million abortions per year. There have been 60 million abortions in the U.S. alone since Roe v Wade. All of the civilized races are unwilling to reproduce in sufficient numbers and thus have entered population decline and will eventually go extinct.

>>20293556
Kek Ligotti seething and coping. He doesnt have the juevos.

>>20293556
You can literally see his cognition break down on the page, it’s astounding how feeble his argument is given the confidence of its delivery and the mockery of its imaginary interlocutor. Hegel covered this phenomenon as Die verkehlte Welt, the topsy-turvy or “inverted” world where Understanding, drunk on its own power of drawing distinctions and identities, can make right into wrong, punishment into pleasure, virtue into sin, and life into death. Consciousness escapes this problem by realizing itself as that negative power that inverts relations, ie, by observing itself as Life in another, something Ligotti has failed to do. Many such cases. Sad!
>>20295578
So which is it? Is Le Suffering a quantity or not? If it is, surely cost-benefit analysis leads to the realization that a large capital expenditure (suicide) will reap the benefit of an eternity devoid of any expenditure at all. Or do you now realize the absurdity of viewing pleasure and pain as accounting units?

The argument against pessimism, that it is invalidated by its proponents not committing suicide, is invalidated by Mainlander, who did commit suicide.

>>20295677
And yet here I am, redolent in the splendor of Living. Curious!

>>20294421
Sorry Reaper, no refunds

>>20295684
Do you think this has relevance to anything?

>>20293989
Wrong

>>20295684
You lose: >>20295660

>>20295688
The validity of the pessimism theory isn’t only contingent on its practical realization of suicide. You also have to convince the living in theory that life is net suffering. But you won’t, and you can’t, because you have to kill yourself or be absurd.

>>20295660
that's because women are allowed to exist outside the desired preference for mere procreational purposes.

>>20295700
It’s so weird that pessimists insist on quantifying suffering but they don’t understand statistical information

>>20294209
>How does the pessimist know he will stop existing?
By dying

>>20295703
No you don't, you can just convince them not to have children for hedonistic reasons, or convince women to kill their own children by the millions because of liberation or some bullshit.
>>20295710
Net population doesn't matter. I don't care what happens to the future mudpeople planet.

>>20294215
Yes, I'm glad we agree

>>20295712
Your pessimistic brain, I know, isn’t able to reason about the lives of others. But try to recognize at least abstractly the contradiction between asserting that the “antinatalists have won” using quantitative data when the actual quantitative data shows population growth. You haven’t won shit.
>>20295712
> you can just convince them not to have children for hedonistic reasons
That’s why I’m going to demand you kill yourself, expel you from my community, or destroy you myself if you refuse to leave.

>>20295705
>women exist
Optimists have never managed to explain this away.

>>20295725
>... when the actual quantitative data shows population growth. You haven’t won shit.
As I stated, human suffering in its totality does not matter to me. I only care about the suffering of the better parts of humanity.
>That’s why I’m going to blah blah
Lol

>>20295736
> As I stated, human suffering in its totality does not matter to me. I only care about the suffering of the better parts of humanity.
I don’t care what you care about or deem important, this is philosophy where we deal in absolutes.

>>20295736
>>20295746
Besides, years of masturbation have obviously rendered your brain defective. You’re a subhuman. It’s laughable to read you speak of the better parts of humanity when you are worse than a rectal polyp.

Antinatalists are all mentally ill losers.

>>20295746
>>20295749
Sorry anon, but I don't care what you think about the matter. Unless you're a shitskin your race will go extinct before long.

>>20295765
Then fuck off and die, faggot. Lol.

>>20295770
I accept your concession of defeat.

>>20295773
I'm fucking my wife tonight. What are you doing?

>>20295733
Kek, cope chud

>>20295774
>>20295776
Do you argue like a hole on purpose or does it come naturally?

>>20295792
don't speak of nature, you're completely alienated from it.
Having children is a pleasure, not a pain. A child learning piano or math or even coloring is a pleasure, not a pain. For healthy adults, even past suffering, on recollection, becomes a pleasure, because we've grown from it. Suffering for the betterment of another is a pleasure. You can say i'm a prisoner to my natural inclinations - i say it is a bondage which isn't one. before i die surrounded by loved ones i'll reflect on reading of your suicide in the papers. i'll probably laugh.

>>20295808
>For healthy adults, even past suffering, on recollection, becomes a pleasure
It this an endorsement of rape?

>>20295831
Illiterate pussy.

>>20295832
You said that being a rape victim will become a pleasure on recollection, did you not?

>>20294029
if pre and post death are so opaquely unknowable, how can either be said to be preferable to life?

Has any pessimist ever explored the idea that the universe is so shit that any attempt at suicide would fail to provide an escape?

>>20295925
Julius Bahnsen

>>20295834
Kys chud, incels don't get to argue

>>20295834
Read my post and find out if that’s what I said. Or would that induce too much suffering or whatever?

>>20296003
So which suffering becomes pleasurable and which doesn't?

Only an optimist would think suicide would lead to a better outcome.

>>20293583
>to hide his lack of *chin*
ftfy

>>20296018
Read the post and you can find out.

>>20296040
Pain that you grow from right? So if a rape victim overcomes their trauma then they grew from it and thus it is pleasurable.

Are you all being deliberately obtuse? He's obviously implying that a pessimistic assessment of the state of the world on average is not necessarily a condemnation of his own existence. Most people who have time to write generally do not have any more misery than they take upon themselves, at least at the time of their life in which they are writing. There are still billions of people being born just to die of malnutrition, disease, neglect, or go on to live very painful lives. If I was an expert mechanic and told you that your car was in terrible shape and you should probably stop driving it, that doesn't mean I should stop driving my car. Even if that assessment applies to the vast majority of cars on the road, it still doesn't apply to mine.

>>20296053
Yes - therefore it is an endorsement of healing and recovery, not necessarily of any particular act of violence that would require such. Thanks for playing. At four posts, you are way over par for basic literacy.

>>20296060
Suffering provides this opportunity for growth though, does it not? Are you saying that suffering is bad or that is good? I don't follow.

>>20293832
But he could end his suffering. The suffering he feels is sufficient enough to desire that he never lived to feel it. He has the option to return to that state of unloving at any time, but he refuses to take advantage. His stance, and really the tone of his writing in general, seems to be that of apathy more than true despair or suffering.

>>20296040
You didn't say "if", you said "because". You didn't make a distinction. You simply assumed that people grow from pain over time. That isn't necessarily wrong but clearly, the ability of different people to grow and overcome different traumas varies quite dramatically. What's one of your most painful memories? Was it really that bad or have you lived a very comfortable and priveleged life?

For all we know, the christians could be right and the universe could be operated by a lovecraftian demiurge that tortures people forever for not worshipping it. That wouldn’t make life any more worth living, but that does give a pause when considering suicide.

This is really not hard to grasp. Murder causes suffering, including self murder. The real question for antinatalists is: if you had a device that would eliminate all sentient life, do you used it?

>>20295925
Buddha and Schopenhauer both argue that because you cannot kill your essence. Only wisdom provides an escape from this hell.

>>20295808
I read a story about a Belgian child molester who kidnapped two girls and kept them in a hidden room in his home. When he was arrested no one found them and they starved to death in his underground rape dungeon. How did they grow from their suffering?

>>20296074
>>20296082
>it is good for people who have suffered to heal
>it is good for people to suffer
Can you really not distinguish these statements? I’m not the one who mentioned any particular suffering, you’re the one for whom all suffering is instantly shoved up the sliding scale to rape. I suffer when I stub my toe, but I retrospectively learn that I can watch where I’m going. This learning is pleasurable.

>>20296088
>do you used it?
What did he mean by this

>>20295808
>For healthy adults, even past suffering, on recollection, becomes a pleasure
>rape and diddle kids
>feel better because they probably learn from the fucked up trauma I inflicted on them
KINO

>>20295733
I love women

>>20296104
It doesn't have to be rape. Let's say you walk too close to me and I stomp on your foot as hard as I possibly can. This will teach you not to walk so close to other people, and your physical wound will heal eventually. In the end you will have grown. So this is good, correct? After all you've stated that suffering is worthwhile because it allows us to heal and grow.

>>20295736
>I only care about the suffering of the better parts of humanity
>... by advocating their extinction
Absolute nigger

>>20296104
You didn't make a distinction between "pain that someone can overcome" and "pain" in your post. It is BECAUSE you didn't mention any particular suffering that you are being bombarded with extreme examples. They serve as counterexamples to your assertion that past suffering becomes pleasure. If you aren't trying to make a statement on all suffering you need to be more specific.

Dying is bad.
The cause of dying is birth.
Birth is bad.

>>20296144
>Dying is bad.
Wrong

>>20295733
My gf made me a quesadilla with apple slices so I'm pretty bullish on women

>>20296161
It is bad. Death is not bad but the physical process of dying is bad.

>>20296138
I said “healthy adults.” Actually rape victims do find the process of healing and forgiving edifying and humanizing for themselves. But this doesn’t entail and endorsement of rape.

>>20296126
Sure. And more fundamentally the body grows basically by injury and healing.

>>20296193
There are plenty of pains that even "healthy adults" would find difficult or impossible to overcome. Or by virtue of having insurmountable suffering, would they cease to be "healthy adults"? Either way, that distinction is not very useful. The rape victim thing was the other poster's example but their are plenty of terrible things that can happen to someone where growth is unlikely or impossible. There is a reason humans go to such lengths to alleviate suffering in others. It's because plenty of suffering serves no purpose.

>>20296216
> where growth is unlikely or impossible.
Then they haven’t become healthy. Maybe they never will.

>>20296222
Well then my point still stands. "healthy adults" is not a useful distinction in the context of your post. You might as well have used "masochists" instead of "healthy adults".

>>20295710
I mean, if we're going by statistics, basically everyone predicts that by the end of the century, if not earlier, the global population is gonna peak, and then it'll start decreasing.

>>20296168
>suffering bad
Wrong yet again

>>20295396
do you have any source on the drugs stuff? there wasn't much about that when I read about him. in his fiction drugs are usually antidepressants and such

>>20296364
>We were bored and took drugs.
>After I had a breakdown between eleventh and twelfth grades, I couldn't take drugs anymore. I hardly left the house, except to attend school, because my panic attacks and agoraphobia were very severe and frequent.
>Unless you grow up in a literate household, which I didn't, although my family was fairly affluent, there was no way for me to learn about anything that suited my interests other than how to make a hash pipe out of the cardboard tube inside of toilet paper or how many milligrams of Dexedrine I needed to take to get high without giving myself a heart attack.

https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/ligotti/
https://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=421..

>>20296252
>soulless hylic cannot understand a healthful state because he is in chronic torpor and misery
Many such cases. Sad!

>>20296435
>muh gnosticism shitty meme argument
Looks like you don't fucking know what you're talking about and now you resort to shitty brainlet larps
Many such cases!

>>20296448
My argument relies on an experience of being healthy and happy. You have no health, and no happiness, hence your feeble attempts to poke holes in the pleroma of life. I don’t need you to be convinced, whereas you need me to be convinced.
Your point doesn’t “stand.” Lol. It’s a rape fantasy, not a “point.” This really is sad.

>I am so strong and edgy cuz I read berserk.. I can fight through any pain and torment because I'm like Gatsu. You can rape and dismember my mom in front and still I'd want to live and fight!
^ modern zoomer trash.

>>20296469
Why do you all read the word “suffering” and immediately think of rape? It’s strange. People suffer when they run marathons, they suffer when they toil, they suffer when they stay up long nights devoted to studies or art. And they end up the better for it. Those were the cases I had in mind. And even in your (clearly projective) limit case, the fact is many rape victims do feel they become stronger through the process of forgiveness. But that doesn’t ENDORSE rape, or any of the other sufferings I listed. It really is quite simple. Endorsement of healing and growth doesn’t endorse any particular injurious act of one upon another. You can rearrange your words all you want, you’ll still just be wrong and projective.

>>20296162
Yummy

It’s very simple, it would be better not to be, but we are, so anti-natalists want to question the act of further creation. But none of that implies extinguishing extant life.
Part of the problem with living is the inevitable pain and fear of death; being beholden to biological states that keep people clawing for one more breath (often in debility, senility and crippling agony).
Pointing out how shitty life can be and then being told to kill yourself in that case, is only an argument in their favour.

>>20296363
Suffering is not suffering when you are talking about something that people can endure, by definition.
Running a marathon, having a bone-marrow transplant, losing your loved ones, etc. all could be described as suffering for one person but not necessarily another, yes, BUT that is not them suffering then, is it?
There will be something that they will find makes them a suffer.
It is purely personal and inescapable. The retarded stoic platitudes are like saying “works on my pc”. Not everyone is in the same situation - and you will be affected by something.

>>20296597
I’m not Stoical. I acknowledge there will be individuals irreparably harmed by unsurmountable horrors. But life is the possibility of self-consciousness, ie, of spiritual life through alienation of self (thematized in this discussion as “suffering” in various forms), and that possibility is worth preserving and extending, even if right now things seem horrible.

Because I hate all of you faggots but I enjoy being alive.

>>20296879
Optimist!! Optimist detected! He enjoys! He doesn’t endlessly suffer!

>>20296606
>The possibility of spiritual life through self-alienation is worth all of the irreparable horrors that have occurred in the world
This is a new one

>>20296193
You might not endorse it but I do

how come if life is suffering, normies don´t want to acknowledge that and look at you like a freak if you say something along those lines

>>20297251
We're biologically programmed to struggle for survival. Most people simply hold the biological default rather than coming to a rational conclusion (one way or the other). So when you question something that's deeply "obvious" to them they may get upset.

>>20293556
This is so poorly written, holy shit kek

>>20297173
>new one
>>what is redemption
>>what is forgiveness of sin
>>what is religion

>>20297293
that might be the case but i don´t really see any sense of struggle in their lives, apart from the usual examples such as having to earn money the hard way, their social lives, family and friends are well adjusted that it may seem from their pov is that life sucks sometimes instead of the pessimistic route that i have and others on this site can share as an universal

>>20297310
You are saying that evil is "worth it" since we can be forgiven of it. This is some kind of perversion of Christianity.

>>20297320
The “worth it” framing is a product of the object of discussion, namely Ligotti’s idiotic accountancy units of suffering. Since we’re dealing in his terms for the sake of critique, we end up framing these things as monetary exchanges, debts and credits. But you’re right - it’s utterly Babylonian and a total perversion, which should give the lie to his babytalk in the eyes of anyone spiritually awakened.

>>20297318
Reminds me of this bit from No Longer Human.

>>20297327
Showing that his thought results in a perversion of your own doesn't refute him.

>>20297334
>refute

>>20297344
Are you just registering your disagreement then?

>>20297334
Uh, that wasn’t my thought. You’re the one who paraphrased “worth preserving and extending” as “worth an exchange for.”

>>20297330
damn, i should read this book, LITERALLY ME!!!


in all seriousness, sometimes i cope with this dilemma by reading pic related and by achieving my life goals trying to create my life as a sort of adventure, lucky for me, i don´t want to have kids nor family, a gf/wife is sufficient for me

>>20297352
>LITERALLY ME!!!
It probably isn't because the protag is a Chad pussy slayer.

>>20297359
i was making joke but regarding women, i´m practicing in how to flirt with them so that might eventually happen in the long future

>>20297366
I know you were being sarcastic, I just saying that anyway. I've seen multiple people make threads crying about it lol

>>20296481
The kind of suffering you listed is good for self-growth, but I don't think being abducted by a serial killer and tortured in his basement helps at all. I wouldn't forgive such a person because I'm not a Christcuck.
Some experiences can make one wish he were never born, which was my point, dummy. I just hope neither of us ever encounter something like that.
At that point, it would be things like vengeance and anger that fuel me.

>>20296481
>"Suffering is okay so long as they're my endorsed life-affirming examples and not teeth-shatteringly painful ass cancers!"

>kys
it's a waste of good suffering!

>>20297841
Good to know studying is “teeth-shattering” for you.

>>20293580
you die in the end anyway, why bother

I am not a pessimist and I think Ligotti is a child but I do intend to kill myself

These retards are so retarded

People naturally fear death, that is the part of a functioning lifeform, its self preservation
Which is why "suicidal" people often spend hours alone before the deed, they don't want to "die" they just want the suffering gone and have to resolve to do it. It can be painful, scary, embarrassing. The fact that you die anyways is the ultimate pain of it.

The whole concept of "I wish I was never born" vs "I wish I was dead" is predicated on the inherent attachment to life that life brings you. The deed is done, "you" are "you" and to pessimists that is an inherent pain, even thinking about the pain is a part of the pain. There's also the thoughts of what you leave behind, how you are remembered, who you will hurt, none of that is present when you simply never existed.

remarking that someone should kill themselves for acknowledging that being given life is often a horrible deal is really stupid. especially since a good amount of pessimists DO end up killing themselves.

Wow, the thread stayed up this time.
Last time I tried to argue this it got deleted within ten minutes. No doubt christcucks and various meatheads have reported it.

>>20295578
The initial assumption itself is absurd. The pessimist basically admits defeat to suffering (which is always bad. Nvm the thousands of years of spiritual teaching on this topic).

The reason why people tell pessimists to kill themselves is because they are the freeloaders of life. They've given up on the prospect of enjoying this life and yet they stick around to leech off its gift. They are like the resentful son who lives at home well into middle age, or the child who insists on always having a toy while playing with or cherishing it. People want the pessimist to give up the fucking toy if he's not going to use it.

The fact that the pessimist won't kill himself is in fact a refutation of pessimism. It's an admission of hope, that this is actually better than the alternative. All this bullshit about "oh well, it will cause suffering for me to die" is a massive cope. Your death will cause suffering regardless, so why not get it over with? There are certainly ways to end it all painlessly. There are no excuses.

This brings us to core truth of it all: the pessimist won't kill himself because he enjoys being a pessimist. His joy in life is to hate it. To kill himself would be to put an end to his guilty pleasure. No pessimist would admit this because that would be missing the point. He must hate life in order to tolerate it. The pessimist is addicted to his own suffering. He must suffer; he gets high off of it. The pessimist says "life is suffering". No. Suffering is his life. And that is why the pessimist will never kill himself.

>>20298674
This "the pessimist is breathing my air and he's smug about it" argument is shit, but restate it a few hundred more times in case I'm wrong.

>>20298725
It's not about being smug, it's about being pathetic.

>>20298674
clench & cope

>>20298674

What makes you think that performing the act will yield the intended result?

>>20299585
Because of the abundance of suffering that you claim overwhelms the positives of life. That’s the reason. Fucks sake, the more I see from these clowns the more I hate them. Mainlander was the only one with any kind of integrity, warped as it was.

>>20293740
Most truthful posts get no replies

There is no good outcome of life, so living and dying are indifferent, and the person that is alive is already dead, and he that is to be born had already existed, implying the universal void that places a limit on being and also forces a partial being making the end of being the cessation of non-being.

>>20300992
because we don't know what happens after death

Assuming this life isn't forever, you will ide. Therefore the difference between suicide and non-suicide is strictly about the intermediate period between now and your death.
Saying that fear of death explains away the suicide question within pessimism is a weird cop out. You will die anyway. It's only a matter of dying tomorrow by a carefully chosen (painless) method or dying from a crippling disease 50 years from now, time which is apparently terrible to live.
All it proves it that pessimists are ultra high time preference morons, who take much higher delayed pain over tanking the single shot of unescapable pain now.

>>20302352
I've been clinically dead before and I can tell you for a fact there's nothing

>>20302495
Other clinically dead people say different

Does anyone have that "the easiest way to refute a nihilist is to kill them" pic?

>>20302528
I've read a theory somewhere before that near death experiences are customized to your personal beliefs. I have been an atheist/uncaring about religion for as long as I remember so maybe that's why I saw nothing but non-existence

>>20293556
That isn't a response lmfao. Zero principles having lil bitch

>>20296461
Your argument relies on extremely poor reading comprehension lmfao

>>20302393
How is "humans are flawed creatures who are bound by the limits of their mind and body" a cop out? It's way more of a natural understanding of humans than your econ 101 analysis. It's also a crude oversimplication to summarize it as fear of death. Gambling is a much better analysis. Even pessimists can't help but gamble, either rightly or wrongly, that the life ahead of them will be better than it is now. They are as compelled to do so as an addict is to go to casinos and blow their paycheck on slots. They might understand that what they are doing is irrational but that doesn't change how their mind works on an emotional level.

Most people on this thread are retarded. There is a difference between never having been born and killing yourself. Ending your own existence is a massive amount of suffering, and without being able to continue living to compare the total sum of that suffering to the sum of one's suffering living out their natural life and dying in any manner of unknown way, how can you in good conscience criticize a pessimist, who effectively is a critic of suffering, of being disingenuous that they don't want to experience the suffering of suicide? Never having been born is the state of escape from all suffering. Once born, killing yourself doesn't return you to that state. It just ceases the suffering sooner. But that cessation could equate to a far greater suffering than existence. This is another criticism the pessimist has for the natalist: by bringing a person into existence, you inevitably condemn them to death.

>>20302547
How the hell can you see non-existence?

every single fucking thread on pessimism on here is exactly the same. I'm not even one but all the "you pussy" arguments I'll never take seriously coming from here

>>20295677
I've yet to see this be addressed. Perhaps Mainlander solved philosophy.

>>20298352
Didn't know you could misread a post that bad, impressive

>>20293989
you pull the gun's trigger and you die
it is that simple

>>20303421
With a thumb up my ass, it works

>>20293556
I never understood the argument that there is so much suffering in the world that it would be better to not be born, maybe I don’t understand it, but my life has very little suffering in it. I’m pretty pleased with life on most days, and I don’t consider myself to be delusional, as there’s no reason to be. Where is this suffering he’s on about? Suffering that fills the world so much that simply by being born you are subjected to it? Or is at not what he’s saying? Is he saying that the suffering of others means it’s better to not be born? Why should the suffering of the world affect me at all? That has nothing to do with me.
Is he saying that people should cease having children, as the chances of them leading painful lives is too high? I could understand that. I understand I’m on the lucky side with my non suffering life.

>>20303421
Go to sleep and you'll see

>>20294991
so is ligoti then

>>20302352
Fair enough. Am I mistaken in my understanding that pessimism usually begins from a place of atheism? Isn’t the point that it’s all meaningless in the end, there is nothing else and no reason to continue?

>>20304061
Most pessimists had hemorrhoids

>>20303615
It betrays a youthful naivete.

>>20302546
Yeah, its on r/iamanigger, go get it.

Pessimists are like trannies, both whine about shit they were born into because they want to be speshul snowflakes. Everybody should just suck it up and make the best of what they were handed

>>20293556

>>20293556
another day, another wordy incel pseud glorified on here yaaawn, next thread please

>>20295808

That's exactly the problem. Life itself, biology itself delude(s) the involved organisms with pleasure in order to keep the whole thing going. You're also making various lazy boomer mistakes over the course of your exchanges:

->>20295808 "herp derp le edgy guy is totally separated from nature". No, there is no such thing as being outside nature.
->>20295774 "herp derp le pussy le meaning of life".

Of course, having a family and children feels great for the involved organism during its lifespan, if it is well-equipped. Basically you're mistaking your own situation for a metaphysical meaning when in the end we are equal as nothing. You yourself don't benefit in any way from having reproduced or gained wealth, once the moment of your death has come, and this is true for all human beings. It's only during one's life that this counts, and normies mistake this lifespan-existential argument for meaning. "Dude le just create your own meaning then during life".

>>20293580
Actually yes. I am unable to overcome the will to live that every living being has. Read Schopenhauer

>>20304061
I'm a pessimist but only for myself and for people with similar constitutions and sensibilities to me. I've had a shit life comparable to that of an edgy b movie plot and I'm only alive for my cat at this point, but I know that there's plenty of people lucky enough to be born with a loving home life, healthy upbringing, with an ability to feel nigh transcendental whimsy and passion for certain things without much serious questioning, and haven't had to go through serious debilitating trauma or loss or if they have they have strong faith in their belief systems that dampens most of the effects. It's simply how it was written. And I'm sure there's going to be people spouting crass bootstraps advice and as someone has said previously in this thread, it's the equivalent of saying "works on my pc" on a troubleshooting forum. Stop larping as boomer dads it gets old after the 3000th pessimism thread.

>>20295808
I hope you know the majority of people die alone and horribly, such as after having a heart attack and falling and convulsing on the kitchen floor while everyone is away. The "surrounded by your loved ones and passing peacefully on your hospital bed" deal is very rare. You're also going against the supposed one dimensionality of pessimism with the one dimensionality of optimism. Do you know how much horrible scarring shit can happen to your children? Have you never opened a history book or newspaper?

>>20304189
Hahahahaha it really all is just bullshit from them.

>>20293556
He misunderstands, they are told they should kill themselves because no one likes them, not because of a perception of a flaw in their logic.

>>20293740
Ive only read literally this passage from him and now I feel free to pass him forever

>>20293556
So life is worth living if you're burdened as much, but that doesn't mean "life is worth living"?

>>20293556
How do pessimists contend with the empirically proven fact that your thoughts influence your reality to a huge extent? Health, relationships, lifespan, all are significantly improved by simply having positive expectations. A cautious optimist is just as lucid as a pessimist, and yet the pessimists reality is worse because he himself has made it so

>>20308975
Because new age positivity always loses to reality. Try to positively think your way out of bone cancer or your kid falling off his bike and turning retarded.

>>20309114
>Try to positively think your way out of bone cancer
There are literally thousands of documented cases of this happening, if not more

>>20294991
They can be right but their "wisdom" is often tainted by out-of-sight emotional issues and personal anger.

>>20309142
>There are literally thousands of documented cases of this happening
First off, of course there isn't, second, and then the healed live forever and never encounter another gruesome impasse of suffering and possibly destruction?

>>20309433
>First off, of course there isn't
lol. Do some research and find out what % of the success of many medical drugs and even surgeries is pure unadulterated placebo. It is very very high

>>20309449
>miracles are real!
I'm going to need at least a sliver of proof.
>lol do some research!

>>20309455
They're not miracles, it's just the body turning genes on or off.