/lit/ - Literature

First of all, define based. I’d say Harry Potter is based for making Goblins greedy bankers that look like Jews. I don’t think that’s what you meant, though. I’m going to assume you used the word based as a synonym for good.

Perhaps it’s because certain elements are sacrificed for world-building. I’d imagine it would be hard to write a text that can be read as an allegory in the fantasy genre for example.

>>20280799
Read Book of the New Sun

>>20280808
>define based
he 'defined' it in the body
>I don't know of any fantasy book that is considered one of the best books ever written

>certain elements are sacrificed for world-building
how is that? i mean instead of describing a real world set you describe a fantasy world one. I thnk it isn't that different

>>20280799
prince of nothing and >>20280816

>>20280799
The only one I know is Frankenstein and it is light fantasy ie it could have been done with an ugly malformed guy, he doesn't needed to be a monster

>>20280816
>>20280860
are all the books of the series good or only the first ones?

>>20280799
I enjoyed those, idk what other anons think of them

>>20280808
>I’d say Harry Potter is based
cringe

>>20280816
this guy wrote pic related too, which is kind of good

>>20280890
All of them

>>20280904
good first 50 pages pretty rubbish after like most fantasy of the era

>>20280799
The issue is women and publishers. They are full liberal retards that will only publish you if you identify as tranny. Most "fantasy readers" just buy sandersoy books. If you want based fantasy, look no further than Lord of the Rings. Simple as.

>>20281024
>that Neil Gaiman endorsement
soul

>>20281024
I don't like the narration style in this book but it's definitely the biggest male power fantasy I've seen

>>20280851
>i mean instead of describing a real world set you describe a fantasy world one.
You don’t need to describe the real world. People already have a pretty good understanding of what the real world is like. When you introduce different mythical creatures, magic, and hominoid species then you have some explaining to do.

>>20281353
Have you never read a good book? Moby Dick? It doesn't matter if your world is real or not real, good authors describe it in great depth.

>>20280890
>are all the books of the series good or only the first ones?
The first books make no sense without reading the others. I have no idea how people say torturer is the best when it makes 0 sense without the Alzabo reveals etc.

>>20281318
>If you want based fantasy, look no further than Lord of the Rings. Simple as.
Nothing based in those soi books anon. Gor books are based.

>>20280799
because fantasy writers are bullied nerds

>>20280799
GoT and LotR. I know this board likes to think theyre the MacDonalds of lit (especially GoT), but as far as fantasy goes theyre unironically pretty good. Theyre just too popular for snobs and contrarians.

>>20280799
what makes a fantasy book based?

>>20281173
>>20281421
okay so i guess i'll have to read of all them

Tolkien and Gene Wolfe are both great writers even outside of their genre.
>>20280816
Excellent choice anon.

Why tf would you write a 10 volume fantasy tome with shitty prose when you could just DM? More fun and people actually interact with your worldbuilding (only thing that matters to modern fantasy authors anyway).

>>20281318
>The issue is women and publishers. They are full liberal retards that will only publish you if you identify as tranny.
that's right but doesnt explain why there isnt the dostoevsky, the cervantes, the shakespeare, the pynchon, the nabokov, the joyce, the melville, etc of fantasy. There are hundreds of incredible fiction writers that doesn't write fantasy and none or little, at least at the level of the ones i've listed, fantasy writers. Why is that the case? I don't know but it is a fact

>>20281982
do you know who Tolkien is?

>>20281353
>You don’t need to describe the real world
So? What is it? More words? Aren't there books that explain non-daily things in depth? Couldn't one describe, instead of that sort of thing, fantasy concepts? I don't see how it is that much different

>>20281994
okay tolkien, one, that doesnt matter. Explain the huge difference of number

>>20282021
If we include actual mythology and folklore with fantastical elements, fantasy btfos literary fiction and it's not even close. It's just due to narrow definitions.

>>20281642
being one of the best in general. Compete with the greatest books of all time, regardless of genre. Or, if you want, to be in the top in the fiction competition

>>20282031
there has to be a writer, homer and stoker count but the story that your grandmother told you doesnt

Because fantasy is good for video games and nothing else

>>20281024
>read this cool shit or you’re an ugly nerd
Why is Nell Gayman bullying me???

>>20280808
>for making Goblins greedy bankers that look like Jews
That's the films. And it was a set of coincidences (like the fact the floor of the magic bank was left with the Star of David even after the after effects). You really think a english liberal like Rowling would put in 'antisemitism' consciously?

>>20282272
You are an easy target.

>>20280816
Based

>>20280890
They're all good, and they get retroactively better when you've read the rest
The only whole series I've reread

There's also Long/Short Sun books but those are only tangentially related

>>20280799
I'm writing a novel about a virus that turns black africans into giant mutated human beasts that spread all around the world and bring chaos and destruction, and paramilitary units or individuals called "Nigger Hunters" that hunt these monsters down for a job. How do you consider this?

>>20282315
What are Levantin people doing in this setting? Infected too?

>>20282326
the same as usual. Eat rice with fish and be racist

>>20280799
I know one very based fantasy book but it has never been translated to english so you may never have heard of it.

>>20281947
You're implying that the kind of person apt to write a decology of high fantasy books would allow player agency for very long - you'd be better off playing a pc rpg at that point, at least it wouldn't argue with you if you go off the creators' rails.

Im finding Erikson pretty based so far and most people I talk to love his work.
Gene Wolf is also based and pretty decent. But ive recommended it to 3 friend so far who read fantasy and they found him boring. So I guess it's not for everyone, but you should give him a try imo.

>>20282509
Licia Troisi?

>>20282554
> Erikson
Bloated piece of shit is literally a D&D campaign adapted for print.

>>20282703
There is always some salty brainlet kek.
Go read harry potter, its closer to your reading level.

>>20282717
mccarthy is my favorite author and i do not like erikson
you may now either say mccarthy is at a lower level than erikson or reconsider
to me it seems that malazan is the 40k of /sffg/, some mountainous pile of trash that some people constantly discuss as though it were a great thing, baffling everyone else

>>20282880
I love Mccarthy but he doesn't even write fantasy lmao. I don't know what to tell you, you either have never read Malazan or don't read fantasy at all. Bakker also seemed like garbage before I read it but I gave it a try and now I love it.

>>20282952
Bakker and Erikson are fucking trash. I swear to God fantasyfags are the most tasteless brainlets alive and it's a sin that we let you subhumans live.

>>20282962
You don't even read fantasy do you?
What are you doing in this thread larping as a fantasy reader? Is this some kind of faggot kink you have?

>>20282962
>>20282970

>it's a sin that we let you subhumans live

Who are "we" ? Are you going to kill every fantasy reader just because you don't like fantasy? How old are you? You can't be older than 15 if you write shit like this unironically.

>>20280799
>I don't know of any fantasy book that is considered one of the best books ever written
Ficciones? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Shakespeare's plays? The Faery Queen? Many examples.

>>20282970
>>20282994
Cry about it to your D&D group you fucking idiots.

>>20283019
>>20282962

Im pissing my pants in fear right now. Some 300 lbs neckbeard on lit is going to kill me for reading fantasy books.

>>20283010
Marquez was a complete faggot. I'm glad Vargas Llosa suckerpunched his fat ass.

>>20283044
Good to know.

>>20282315
I didn't read it but theorically it could be good, why not? I don't say there aren't an inherent problem with fantasy but, if it is, I don't get it, I can't imagine which one could be

>>20282509
Share it with us, maybe someone here can speak that language

>>20282554
> ive recommended it to 3 friend so far who read fantasy and they found him boring
Because they read fantasy regularly. It has to be analised by a non-fantasy reader who know about lit

>>20283010
Keep recommending pls, I'm interested

>>20283094
I agree, you're probably right. His books don't have most of the classic pulls that grab fantasy readers. I enjoyed it anyway.

>>20283151
>His books don't have most of the classic pulls that grab fantasy readers
Maybe that is the answer to op's question, fantasy writers write for fantasy readers so they write what they think it will like to those readers and that doesn't coincide with what the GOAT of books needs to be it (the GOAT)

>>20280799
Some anons have said Gene Wolfe and I second that, he's pretty based.
I also quite like Acts of Caine. Second Apocalypse is also neato.
For rather "based" concepts and ideas and "imaginative groundbreaking" shit, you can always rely on Jack Vance and Roger Zelazny. And I've always preferred Robert E. Howard Howard and Mervyn Peake thousandfold over Tolkien.

>>20280816
Based and Clawpilled

>>20283010
Gigabased. People always ignore "fantasy" goes all the way back to the Origin. I do assume OP meant the "modern fantasy" scene tho, which is rather shitty since it eventually became a LotR/Conan undead corpse before subsuming to the curse of making everything like a D&D campaign or a videogame setting. 90s and early 00s were a brief period of refreshment though.

>>20282315
Sounds like attack on titan but more based

>>20282632
>>20283083
It's pic related. Only exists in frog language so far.

>>20280799
Just read this thread for your answer. Fantasy readers are retards.

>the good writers touch life often. The mediocre ones run a quick hand over her. The bad ones rape her and leave her for the flies

Fantasy too often does not care to depict life. It attracts a certain kind of audience and certain kinds of creators that are too focused on life denial to resonate with life.

>>20283244
Have you read this? Literary fantasy as well

>>20282288
English liberal who hates trans people lol

>>20283275
If I wanted life I would've gone to life, not to books.

>>20280799
Read the neverending story. Best fantasy story ever written imo

>>20283190
based wolfechad

Don't worry I'm working on one, but it's gonna take a while

>>20280904
The main character rapes a woman for literally no reason in the first few chapters lmao wtf even are these books

>>20281947
Hilarious to see it from the other end. You’ll always get some RPG players saying “why not just write a book” in regards to solo games, good to know there’s retards everywhere.

>>20283295
Nope, thanks for the suggestion.

>>20280808
>harry potter
>based in any context
I will personally strip you of your ski, faggot.

>>20280860
Thought Bakker was a boring lib.

>>20283190
Jack Vance is unironically my favourite author.

>>20283302
Yes, transgenderism was not a thing in the mind of the people like 8 years ago.

>>20283374
>rape
>no reason
Lel

>>20283548
nah he's redpilled

>>20283206
>>20283275
So there it is hope, if some good writers start writing fantasy for a not-fantasy audience but a general audience, then great books could be created. Not that general audience, the literate one because there are a lot of shit fantasy for ya and women too

>>20283244
>>20283295
french authors never dissapoint

>>20282315
Ba-ba-ba-bada-basado????

>>20280799
Easy, fantasy readers and writers are autist who can't bear up to the real world so the invent other ones. Thus they can't write good books and fantasy readers are content with those shit books because having non-realistic stuff is sufficient for them to escape reality

I think it's due to how fantasy is defined & the shakles of conventions that are necessary to be defined as fantasy
It's T*lkiens fault. Also Beowulf should probably count, it's inspired him a great deal and he kills dragons and weird big men in that

Any reccs for pre-Tolkien fantasy (that's not medieval/ older)?
I know about The Worm Ouroboros

>>20285391
it inspired him
whoopsy :-)

>>20280808
>Hasn't heard of Gulliver's Travels.
>Weighs in.

>>20285391
>Any reccs for pre-Tolkien fantasy (that's not medieval/ older)?
I'm intrigued too, i guess The Divine Comedy counts. Let's make a list

- The Divine Comedy
-

Copy and paste, if you want, adding your suggestions

>>20285407
The divine comedy is not eorth the read.
It is on the nose, boring, predictable, self-serving of the author, dragged-out, and offers little in terms of lyricism. If you want to, just read a digest or a summary.

>>20285407
i follow you fellow

- The Divine Comedy
- The Iliad

>>20286063
- The Divine Comedy
- The Iliad
- Faust

>>20286090
homer incompleted

- The Divine Comedy
- The Iliad and The Odyssey
- Faust

>>20286324
- The Divine Comedy
- The Iliad and The Odyssey
- Faust
-Lied der Niebelungen

Zelazny is pretty based. The women are all retarded despite having godlike powers.

>>20286554
I'll be polemic

- The Divine Comedy
- The Iliad and The Odyssey
- Faust
- Lied der Niebelungen
- The Old Testament

Because they are meant as pure entertainment whereas actually good non fantasy fiction at least could argue that it‘s merit is in understanding humanity from a different view point. Thus fantasy is written and read by dopamine addicted consoomers. It‘s no better than porn, vidya or fast food. Vidya consoomers will argue about the elaborate story or artistic value but we all know that that‘s just them loving „good news about their bad habits“. Fantasy is inherently hedonistic and entertainment is not the same as art. It‘s meant to give your brain a break and entertain you effortlessly. Art is meant to demand attention and effort by inspiring you to engage with your self.

>>20287041
I agree that it is done that way but why couldn't it be done other way? Instead of fight against a general a character could fight against a mithologic creature. Instead of having a subplot of learning to drive a boat it could be a subplot of learning to control a certain superpower. Or instead of distracting using women traits the distraction could be done creating illusions. Right? What is the obstacle of introducing fantasy?

>>20287115
The issue is that it is always the same zero to hero arch. It appeals to the consoomers who find consolidation in the fantasx that the source of their lack of pride in themselves isn‘t their out of control hedonism but that they just haven‘t „found their true calling“ yet. It‘s like people sitting on their coach waiting for motivation to hit them out of the blue to go for a jog. It will never happen because that‘s not how those things work. Fantasy that would try to be deeper than entertainment and escapism would fare lousy because no fantasy reader wants any of that. There‘s plenty of variations on the theme of the fallen one who becomes the chosen one. The details like what creature, what tactics, what prot, etc do not matter very much since it will always be a twist on the cinderella story. A gantasy of getting the opportunity to suddenly and completely „make it“ by some lucky twist of fait providing you with an unique opportunity to prove that it was „inside of you all along“.

>>20287157
The female equivalent is those cheap romance novels. The fantasy of being the overlooked heroine, but somehow catching the attention of super chad only to be transformed into the swan they were always meant to be by some magical way of his transformative chad love and fucking. See 50 shades of gray or twilight if you need some examples. Sure some women are into reading fantasy but that‘s just a sign of internalized misogyny, not being like „the other girls“ and rejecting that embarrassing girly stuff but at it‘s core the escapist consoomerism is the same.

>>20287157
So what you are saying is that it's mere a decision of the writer for succeeding (in terms of sells) not an intrinsic problem with fantasy. So theorically fantasy can be different and can be approached from a non-fantasy perspective ie ditch the hero journey plot and write a more interesting one.
I would say I'll try to make such a book because I want to read it but sadly I can't write. Maybe there is a forgotten book that is waiting for us to be rediscovered

>>20287210
Yes. You can use fantasy elements to create stories more like mythological stories but then again, most of those are hero to zero stories at their core too. If you want to sell, just make it easy for your audience to self insert and have an orgasmic finale where they feel like everything‘s possible and their situation is not hopeless. It‘s manipulative and abusing people‘s weakness for pleasure but it‘ll generate money so i guess it has some validity. I don‘t see a reason why fantasy elements couldn‘t be used to create deeper stories, the only reason being that you‘ll probably get bad reviews because it won‘t be what people expect when buying fantasy. Just a few days ago i stumbled across pic rel and it‘s written by a psychologist who wrote a (in my opinion) highly important book on shame and pride. It might be interesting to see where he takes the characters, knowing what he knows about humanity.

>>20287253
You gave me hope. I'll read your pic related book, if you find another one let me know.
The fantasy books situation is pretty sad but it is what it is, I hope someday it changes or that, at least, there will appear interesting fantasy books here and there from time to time.
If someday I learn to write I'll try to take that difficult path of non-mainstream fantasy

>>20280877
>it could have been done with an ugly malformed guy, he doesn't needed to be a monster
Did you even read the fucking thing?

>>20287649
>Did you even read the fucking thing?
Yes, how come I talk about it without having read it? Basically it is a monster who pursuits its creator because he suffers and everyone reject him for being ugly and dangerous. He wants a partner, that's the reason why he pursuit the scientist

>>20283244
Based, I'm french and I can confirm it's the best fantasy book I've ever read, and yes I also read BOTS

>>20287883
I can’t imagine being esl on an entirely English website. Every post for you must be exasperating

>>20288115
>I can’t imagine being esl on an entirely English website
Is it that evident? Where can you notice it? In the vocabulary? In the grammar? Probably in both. Maybe even you can tell which is my mother tongue.
I started to read English lit in its original version literally yesterday, I hope it helps to improve my English.

>Every post for you must be exasperating
Not really, the main problem is that I always end using the same words and expressions but people always understand me so I guess it meets its purpose

>>20283295
I can't even find this in English but I'm interested

>>20288185
So read it in french

>>20287253
>"Three classic fairy tales—the stories of Cinderella, Snow White, and Rapunzel—get a more sinister retelling in this three-novella collection by Burgo. Cinderella grapples with depression and a sense of dread about getting what she thought she wanted, Snow White’s mother hones her psychopathic tendencies to try to kill her daughter, and Rapunzel must deal with mommy issues and self-worth. Burgo creates strong narratives that add nuance and sophistication to these tales; the titular grimness manifests as sexual violence, rape fantasies, and ruthless seductresses."
This sounds like needlessly edgy garbage.

>>20288169
Is it that noticeable? How could you tell? The vocab? The grammar? Probably both. Maybe you could even guess my first language.
I started reading untranslated English lit literally yesterday. I hope it helps improve my English.

>>20281982
Buddy, you realize Shakespeare wrote fantasy, right? There are literal ghosts and witches in his plays. Most epic poetry is also fantasy.

>>20288313
How funny, you could help the poor Sicilian instead of laughing at him
>>20288169
>Probably in both
This
>I hope it helps improve my English
It will, just keep practicing

>>20288327
People talking about books they haven't read, a /lit/ classic

>>20280799
Read the never ending story, the bad (or good) thing is that you'll never end it

>>20280799
F what?

Lord Dunsany is a master and should be more appreciated.

The King of Elfland's Daughter, The Gods of Pegana, Time and the gods and The Book of Wonders are among his many masterpieces, anyone who loves fantasy should read Dunsany.

Fantasy can't contain social criticism.

>>20280799
read the sword of truth series if you want "based".

>>20282315
i'd buy this in a blink

>>20281024
>American High fantasy about a little boy getting isekai'd into a gigachad
Alright I'll give it a shot

>>20280799
Thanks for this, OP; I've posted unsuccessful threads with the same topic.

>>20280799
George RR Martin is a fat liberal cuck, but ASOIAF is kinda based anyway if you separate the work from the author. The noble characters actually act like the aristocrats that they are, embracing concepts such as hierarchy, gender roles, honor, nobility, martial honor, ect, rather than acting like 21st century liberals, and everywhere but Westeros (Europe) is potrayed as a barbarous shithole filled with slavery, rape, and poverty (sure Westeros is bad too, but not nearly as bad as most of the Free cities, Dothraki Sea, or old Ghis) Having characters go through horrible situations doesn't make a work not based.

>>20281982
I'm writing one, anon. Over 108,000 words in as of this week.

>>20280799
Because fantasy books are written for children and man children.

Tolkein was the only good fantasy writer I ever read.

>>20289008
I wouldn't say it is successful, no satisfactory answers were given, just recommendations

>>20289515
Share it with us anon, I would read it if it is any good

>>20285412
Filtered

>>20281024
Based Wolfe dabbing on the japs by writing the only good isekai novels.

>>20289914
if that guy's threads got ignored you could say this one is a success in contrast, even though it wasn't properly answered by anyone

>>20290247
what did you expect from /lit/?

bump though no one can answer it because it is an arbitrary event

Gormenghast chads where we at

Malazanschizos, where we at?

>>20290667
we were waiting for you

>>20290681
Gotta get the thread started somehow, watchu know about that? Prolly lots

>>20290667
no malazanschizo is going to reach this point of the thread and that guy >>20290681 isnt going to answer your test >>20290686

>>20290727
Meds?

>>20290743
yes, my life is so sad and painful that i cant do otherwise. Sorry for flaming you before

>>20290775
get rehabilitation

>>20290775
It’s okay, I love you.

>>20291035

>>20290651
>Gormenghast
absolutely based

>>20290651
>Gormenghast
why is it based ? Please don't spoil I've never heard of this.

>>20291696
i cant explain it without spoiling, sorry. But you can read people sucking peake's dick if that encourages you
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/gormenghast/novels/trilogy.html

>>20290651
Going to reread this soon. So good

>>20293025
>>20291746
People online just keep complaining that it's just walls of text.

>>20293030
Not going to lie I laughed at this because all books are walls of text but, sure, the descriptions are lengthy but they’re also so rich. It’s a novel more about the manor itself. It’s a book for those looking less for plot development and more to be immersed in an atmosphere (though there’s still a strong plot).

>>20280799
scifi seems to be what you’re looking for. good fantasy is mythology… and Tolkien is the only true fantasy writer. he made the genre. I agree it’s odd that fantasy books are usually not groundbreaking.

The people saying that Lord of the Rings is the only good fantasy haven't read much fantasy and are undoubtedly just parroting that opinion from this board.

>>20290686
Tayschrenn did a big fucky wucky cause Nightchill is a greedy Azathanai cunt

>>20280799
>>20280860
>prince of nothing
God, no, unless you want the author's personal politics infect every facet of the book, ignore prince of nothing.

>>20293052
>scifi seems to be what you’re looking for
Can you elaborate on that? I've read almost no scifi

>>20293080
So, which ones are the good ones?

>>20282703
>D&D campaign adapted for print
I agree with you that the books are trash, but where does that meme come from? In the introduction the author literally says that he pitched the script as a movie plot to be filmed in Canada (lol) and that when that didn't work out, he made it into a book series. The books do actually read like shitty movies.

>>20280799
isnt that a good book? it's fantasy

>>20280904
>comparable to tolkien
as in, he compared worse.

>>20295403
more like The Picture of Dorian Gay

>>20280799
They write to sell the books to teens that's why

>>20295483

Read Mahabharata and Ramayana.

>>20295626
Do you mean that we should read Turin or what?

>>20295535
Please anons

>>20288327
Why is Shakespeare not considered genre fiction then

>>20282315
racism is lame

>>20281982
fantasy is not that old. how fuckin often does a Dostoyevsky or a Shakespeare come along. if we dont all get baseded to death too soon we'll get them in fantasy to. I mean hell, also, Shakespeare wrote plays, and Dostoyevsky wrote some sort of books, idk what to call his genre, fantasy is yet another genre you've defined, so theres an even lower chance of a great appearing in just one.
>>20296351
I love racism

>>20296574
>if we dont all get baseded to death too soon we'll get them in fantasy to
Idk buddy, as time goes on the new lit is worse and worse

>>20296610
yeh, we can hope. any good lit from the dark ages? I honestly dont know. I guess we have Le Morte de Arthur, thats the only one ive read.

>>20296621
that's fair but the dark ages lasted for centuries, idk about you but i wont make even one

>>20296634
very true, idk what to do man

>>20280799

Have you ever heard of Discworld?

>>20296666
write that fantasy masterpiece yourself, i'll be there to read it

>>20296681
hey thanks bro. ill read yours if you do. I guess we do have control over that at least

>>20285412
fucking retard

>>20296688
in fact no because you dont know who i am and i dont know who you are. And it is unrealistic for us to read every fantasy book that get released

>>20296741
well sure but we have control over what we ourselves so in terms of writing something. thats what I meant

>>20296750
do

>>20296750
okay let's do it. Im starting now

>>20296768
sweet, good luck! leaving to go do something so I won't be replying for a while