/lit/ - Literature

>>20243951
Cheapest one you can find at your local used book shop.

>>20243951
Just learn spanish man, it's fucking easy to learn.

>>20243951
Rutherford is my favorite, but i think the smollet is fine. Grossman was the worst she basically turned it into emoji shakespeare compared to the older translations

>>20243969
>Just learn Spanish in the next five days before the book club starts bro

>>20243951
Grossman and Starkie are the most accurate.

>>20243972
>>20243976
The Duality of /lit/

>>20243974
There are youtube videos showing how learn an idiom in 4 hours, courses with 20h duration. It's one of the easiest languages to learn.

>>20243951
Grossman seems to be both the most accurate and readable.

>>20243983
I feel that the anon who described Grossman's translation as "emoji Shakespeare" is probably not to be trusted.

>>20244005
im being facetious but its overly modernized for no reason... i did a thread posting excerpts from all three and the majority of people agreed she took liberties trying to modernize it

>>20244032
Link to thread please? Genuinely curious.

>>20244039
this was ages ago... i have copies of all three (grossman rutherford and shelton) I can post a new excerpt for you

>>20244044
>Having copies of multiple translations of a work instead of reading it on the original language

Americans make me sick

>>20244044
Please and many thanks. Looking for a decent translation and I've heard conflicting reports on Grossman. For what it's worth I'm ambivalent towards her Marquez translations.

>>20243987
>how learn an idiom
hermano...

>>20244071
>Grossman

Chapter III. Which recounts the amusing manner in which Don Quixote was dubbed a knight

And so, troubled by this thought, he hurried through the scant meal served at the inn, and when it was finished, he called to the innkeeper and, after going into the stable with him, he kneeled before him and said: “Never shall I rise up from this place, valiant knight, until thy courtesy grants me a boon I wish to ask of thee, one that will redound to thy glory and to the benefit of all humankind.”
The innkeeper, seeing his guest at his feet and hearing these words, looked at him and was perplexed, not knowing what to do or say; he insisted that he get up, but Don Quixote refused until the innkeeper de-clared that he would grant the boon asked of him.
“I expected no less of thy great magnificence, my lord,” replied Don Quixote. “And so I shall tell thee the boon that I would ask of thee and thy generosity has granted me, and it is that on the morrow thou wilt dub me a knight, and that this night in the chapel of thy castle I shall keep vigil over my armor, and on the morrow, as I have said, what I fervently desire will be accomplished so that I can, as I needs must do, travel the four corners of the earth in search of adventures on behalf of those in need, this being the office of chivalry and of knights errant, for I am one of them and my desire is disposed to such deeds.”

>Ormsby
CHAPTER III.

WHEREIN IS RELATED THE DROLL WAY IN WHICH DON QUIXOTE HAD HIMSELF DUBBED A KNIGHT

Harassed by this reflection, he made haste with his scanty pothouse supper, and having finished it called the landlord, and shutting himself into the stable with him, fell on his knees before him, saying, "From this spot I rise not, valiant knight, until your courtesy grants me the boon I seek, one that will redound to your praise and the benefit of the human race." The landlord, seeing his guest at his feet and hearing a speech of this kind, stood staring at him in bewilderment, not knowing what to do or say, and entreating him to rise, but all to no purpose until he had agreed to grant the boon demanded of him. "I looked for no less, my lord, from your High Magnificence," replied Don Quixote, "and I have to tell you that the boon I have asked and your liberality has granted is that you shall dub me knight to-morrow morning, and that to-night I shall watch my arms in the chapel of this your castle; thus tomorrow, as I have said, will be accomplished what I so much desire, enabling me lawfully to roam through all the four quarters of the world seeking adventures on behalf of those in distress, as is the duty of chivalry and of knights-errant like myself, whose ambition is directed to such deeds."

>>20244138

>Rutherford

CHAPTER III

Which relates the amusing way in which Don Quixote had himself knighted

And so, troubled by this thought, Don Quixote made short work of his meagre lodging-house supper, and then called for the innkeeper and, shutting himself up with him in the stable, fell upon his knees before him and said: ‘I shall ne’er, O valorous knight, arise from where I kneel, until your courtesy vouchsafes me a boon which I desire to beg of you and which will redound to your own praise and to the benefit of humankind.’ The innkeeper, seeing his guest at his feet and hearing such pleadings, gazed down at him in perplexity, not knowing what to do or say, and kept telling him to stand up; but he kept refusing, and the innkeeper had to promise to grant his request. ‘No less did I expect from your munificence, sir,’ replied Don Quixote. ‘Know therefore that the boon which I have begged and which your liberality has vouchsafed me is that tomorrow you shall knight me; and tonight, in the chapel of this your castle, I will keep the vigil of arms; and tomorrow, as I have said, what I so desire shall be accomplished, so that I can legitimately roam through the four corners of the world in quest of adventures for the relief of the needy, as is the duty of chivalry and of knights errant such as I, whose desire towards such exploits is inclined.’

>>20244114
I’m fluent in three languages, you’re monolingual

>>20244138
>>20244143
Thank you fren, much appreciated.

>>20243951
read the spanish faggot. buy the english and spanish copy and read them side by side

>>20243972
>>20243976
>>20243983
dont read anything by women

>>20244169
i feel like you stlll wouldnt get the aesthetic of the spanish if you were only reading it phonetically, even with the english meanings. Cause each individual words meaning is the main part of the aesthetic. idk i only know english tho

>>20244200
Best way would be reading it in Spanish with an english-spanish dictionary by your side

>>20243969
This

>>20243951
Spanish speaker here. Like a year ago some guy posted excerpts from various translations and Grossman seemed to me to be the most accurate. There was one from the 19th century that was basically its own thing jugding by how different it was from the source material, can't remember the translator's name.

I'm reading Grossman, and I think it's pretty good. Granted I've not read others. It is very obvious at parts that you're reading a translation, it actually makes me want to learn to read Spanish because I think a lot of the humour is lost on me because of it. I think the footnotes are helpful also.

>>20244240
i posted them above in thread if a spanish speaker cares to comment

>>20244217
that does seem worthwhile

>>20244138
>>20244143
Thank you for posting this, you just convinced me to read the Rutherford translation. I remembered you posting a comparison a while back in another thread, but had forgotten which version I preferred.

>>20244272
Right from the start Grossman is the one who respects Cervantes' punctuation and paragraphs the most. I'm posting pic rel for reference.

>>20244251
I think French would be a more useful language to learn in general for literary purposes

>>20243969
I tried learning French, Russian and Japanese and non of them stick. It seems you have to completely immerse yourself in a language for months in order to become literate in it

Thank me now

https://www.amazon.com.au/Don-Quixote-Bilingual-English-Spanish/dp/1549938118

https://www.amazon.com.au/Don-Quixote-Bilingual-English-Spanish/dp/1549946951/ref=pd_aw_sim_sccl_4/358-3386225-0747230?pd_rd_w=CiQjA&pf_rd_p=804f8cbc-94ce-4fdd-a218-b624ea461ef0&pf_rd_r=FRYG9VEPFRWCNN30MZ90&pd_rd_r=0b09d71f-26bc-4100-9319-b4b0ec7bc948&pd_rd_wg=NN2Bf&pd_rd_i=1549946951&psc=1

>>20244138
>>20244143
Rutherford seems to be for pseuds. Grossman is the best of those three imo

>>20244431
based

>>20244300
Yeah I wouldn't learn Spanish to read it, not right now anyway. I just think it's interesting that there must be so many jokes that work so much better in Spanish

Thanks God I speak Portuguese, which means I can read in the original without having to study Spanish

>>20244438
https://www.bookdepository.com/The-Poem-of-the-Cid-Janet-Perry/9780140444469?redirected=true&selectCurrency=AUD&w=AF45AU99Z3RYBSA8VT4B&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7s7TheKe9wIV-ZJmAh09bA_wEAQYHCABEgKCc_D_BwE

https://www.bitchute.com/video/RI9hMDJq88j9/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P83YBudBVDE

>>20243974
I think if you know the basics (I think a lot of Americans do... I live in FL though) you could start working through the book looking stuff up as you go and you'd probably be fluent in no time lol

I might try it anyways

>>20243951
Read the original scrub

>>20243969
spbp

>>20243987
>learn an idiom
hermano

>>20244149
Says the one that called languages idioms

>>20243972
Second Rutherford. Absolutely excellent.

>>20244707
it's a false friend mistake, you're still monolingual

>>20243951
What is this /lit/ reading group? Sorry I'm a newfag, but I wanted to also start Don Quijote

>>20244714
I read an entire book in Spanish. Cope Fernando, you do NOT speak English.

>>20244719
I'm not that anon, English is my first language

>>20244717
Some guy is organizing a group reading. I think they start April 23 or April 27, can't remember.
>>20244719
Go easy with the silly man, we're all friends here.

>>20244728
Better not be on trannycord

>>20244514
Based, I had the same wonderful feeling when I was reading Pessoa's poetry, and I was like 'I already understand 90% of this' kek feels nice.

>>20244707
Idiom is a synonym for language you mongoloid.

>I read an entire book in Spanish.
Those books they give to special kids which are only made up of images doesn’t count you retard. Show us how well you know Spanish and translate the sentence above into castellano.

>>20244740
cope, no it isn't

Read an entire 200 page book with no pictures. Cope Fernando, I speak Spanish better than you speak English

>>20244749
>cope, no it isn't
Yes it is you fucking retard.

Idiom: the language peculiar to a people or to a district, community, or class; the syntactical, grammatical, or structural form peculiar to a language.
Language: a system of communication used by people living in a particular country.

You’re a fucking disgrace who doesn’t even comprehend and understand your own native tongue. What an utter embarrassment you are.

>I speak Spanish better than you speak English
You couldn’t even translate into Spanish the simple sentence I wrote. You’re a fucking liar, a pathetic piece of putrid shit.

>>20244779
>Yes it is you fucking retard.
No it isn't
idiom
/ˈJdJəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g. over the moon, see the light ).

What retard dictionary are you using. Literally not once have I heard an EFL use idiom as language

No pudiste aun traducir en español la oracion sencillo que escribé. Eres un mentiroso, un pedazo de mierdo patitico
Colgate ahora, maricón. Nunca serás una mujer

>>20244811
Do you know that some word can have more than one definition you joke of a human?

>What retard dictionary are you using. Literally every English dictionary I searched showed those definitions for idiom.

>Literally not once have I heard an EFL use idiom as language
Jesus fucking Christ, is your argument really about how you’re ignorant of something and therefore you’re right? Holy fuck dude.

>>20244811
Also your Spanish translation isn’t accurate.

>You couldn’t even translate into Spanish the simple sentence I wrote. You’re a fucking liar, a pathetic piece of putrid shit.
>No pudiste aun traducir en español la oracion sencillo que escribé. Eres un mentiroso, un pedazo de mierdo patitico

>>20244138
>>20244143
The Rutherford translation is retarded and wrong. Ormsby is wrong. Grossman's is decent but it uses English archaisms which are unnecessary for producing the effect of Quijote's antiquated and stilted speech. In the original his speech is exaggerated like someone drawing too much from old novels, but there's no equivalent to "thee" and "thy" there.

I would be interested in seeing Burton Raffel's translation published in the Norton Critical Editions series if anyone has that.

>>20244846
>Do you know that some word can have more than one definition you joke of a human?
In my 22 years of existence, 100% of the times I have heard someone use idiom to mean language was an ESL

>>20244894
I just proved to you that idiom can be used as a synonym of language>>20244779

What is your next argument? An ESL conspiracy sabotaging online English dictionaries so the ESL people can win arguments on 4chan?

>>20244749
>>20244779
Idiom is Middle English for language and is barely used, just like ‘similitude’ for ‘likeness’ or ‘verily’ for ‘truly’.
stfu the both of you.

>>20243951
If you aren't going to go the Spanish route, Grossman is best. This edition is sold at Barnes and Noble, with an introduction from Harold Bloom and a decent cover. If not I'd go for whatever is sold at your used book store for less quan. I got a nice leatherbound for $10, and despite a less preferable translation for myself, I appreciate it much more. It's a very common and accessible book, don't let the translation or lack of Spanish hold you down.

>>20245193
based and level-headed reply

>>20243951
Test

>>20244138
>>20244143
Quality posts, I've been looking to read this.

>>20244170
I've found some women's translations preferable to mens. Besides Grossman, I'm something of a Constance Garnett fan (where better translations are unavailable). I don't read many female authors for some obvious reasons, but some of the Romantics are wonderful. There is surely a girl out there, deserving of a place on your shelf friend. I'd open your mind a little bit, you might be missing out on something you may love. Give it a chance, if not for yourself, a future partner of yours will appreciate it.

>>20244736
we are brothers by faith and cousins by language

>>20245193
Thanks anon, but I'm going to drop out of this group read and learn Spanish instead. I'm already trying to learn Latin, so it can't be a hard thing to do after I'm done.

Are there any other group reads happening this month?

>>20244689
15th century Spanish may not be like current Spanish

>>20244032

Cervantes prose was modern during the time he wrote it, aside from the parts where he was being deliberately archaic, which Grossman conveys by her strategic use of archaisms.

Don Quixote is also really not the sort of book you should read as your first Spanish-language novel, least of all if you haven't read a translation. It's extremely long, and was written hundreds of years ago.

There's no shame in reading something shorter and more contemporary to start. Preferably a translation of a more modern work you've already read and enjoyed: Dahl, Rowling, Lewis, or whatever that sort of thing is for you. Even if it's a children's book, it's worth your time, especially if you actually finish said book.

>>20245473
>There is surely a girl out there, deserving of a place on your shelf friend. I'd open your mind a little bit, you might be missing out on something you may love.
Nice mate, the same too you but then about hard anal sex without lube.

bump

>>20246497
>>20247599
Isn’t the most popular Don Quixote Spanish version nowadays not the original text, but and updated version? If this is right reading it shouldn’t be too hard.

>>20248438
No. That modern version is a blasphemy written by a bad writer.

>>20243969
>Just learn Spanish
>Invest your cultural capital in a sinking ship
You're better off learning French (see: Africa).

>>20246497
I remember reading that in 15th century Spanish, "quicks oat" was a pretty close approximation for the pronunciation. Any linguists know how true this is?

>>20248438
>Isn’t the most popular Don Quixote Spanish version nowadays not the original text, but and updated version?
No. Everyone who reads it uses the original. Only kids read the simplified version.

>>20248478
Doesn't sound right to me. You must pronounce the e at the end. It's not like in French where you have names like Colette. In Spanish you must pronounce every letter. It was more like kee-sho-teh.

>>20248457
>>20248531
Really? I thought I’ve heard how the now common version of Don Quixote in Spanish was actually translated from an English version and wasn’t the actual Cervantes original text. I must’ve mixed up with another book or I’ve dreamt up the whole thing.

>>20248478
>Key
>Ho (like Santa Claus but the h sounds gutural)
>Te (like in telephone)
Key-Ho-Te

>>20248586
That's the modern pronounciation. The older one was closer to key-sho-teh

Nobody reads Don Quixote in the original Spanish, not even Spaniards (they read the modern Spanish translation).

It's the same as how people don't really read Chaucer anymore, they just read modern paraphrases of him because the language is too diffcult.

>>20248590
No, the 'j' phonem in Spanish was represented with an x in those centuries, but the sound was the same.

>>20243974
You ain't a midwit now are ya?

>>20243969
I spent five years learning Spanish in middle school/high school. Senior year we read don quixote and it still sucked. None of were good enough to appreciate the jokes or references, so it was just a weird story about an old knight attacking random things. We would have been much better off reading a translation.

How different is 16th century Spanish from current day Spanish? And what level of competency do I need to read Don Quixote?

>>20248612
> but the sound was the same.
It wasn't. Look it up.

>>20248598
>Nobody reads Don Quixote in the original Spanish, not even Spaniards (they read the modern Spanish translation).
This is false. Most readers read the original version, only kids read version for kids, if at all. Plebs read abridgments, bigger plebs read modernized adaptations.
>It's the same as how people don't really read Chaucer anymore, they just read modern paraphrases of him because the language is too diffcult.
This is an inaccurate comparison. Cervantes's Spanish is Early Modern Spanish. The accurate comparison would be Shakespeare's English. Yes, there are plebs who read modernized Shakespeare but most readers read the original.

>>20249760
>I ask the booksellers in Madrid and they tell me no one buys Cervantes’ original novel anymore because readers prefer the ‘light’ version …

Eat that

>>20249919
Do Spaniards really? lmao everyone in LatAm reads the original, I figured they were the same.

>>20249964
In Spain most people read the original. The other anon is full of shit.

There are book clubs on /lit ?? How does that work exactly? Someone just starts a thread or it's on a discord server or something?

>>20250725
I quoted an article

Just came on Hitler’s Birthday.
Only contention is the lack of page numbers or index but it’s one of those facsimile prints.

When does it start again? The 23rd?

I got the Portuguese version translated by Ernani Ssóon from the Penguin if there is any Brazilian here.

>>20251701
I got the Portuguese version translated by Ernani Ssó from Penguin if there is any Brazilian here.*

>>20251309

can't wait to read this with you guys. good luck.
also i'm going to read the grossman translation. i like the cover; it looks very comfy.

>>20244728
23rd

There is a lit reading group?

>>20250802
>discord

>>20251721
Thank you

>>20244394
Yeah...did you really think you could learn another language by learning vocab flashcards??? That advice always gets peddled on /lit/ and it's the worst
>Just do 10 flashcards a day and then after 100 days you'll know 1000 words!

>>20243951
I read the Smollett version. Very funny and antiquated.

>>20251118
Why are brown people so fascinated by Hitler?

>>20252957
Why are white people so obsessed with brown people?

>>20248468
>French not ruined beyond salvation due to degenerates and immigration

>>20253733
What happens when their language is supplanted? It's an awful thought.

>>20243969
Only English is easy to learn on account of being simple on top of having tons of books, movies, tv-shows, video/board games, youtubers, shitposters on all social medias, etc

>>20243969
I'm not learning Spanish just to read a book and order tacos piss drunk at 3:00am and we all know there's no other use for it.

>>20253733
Correct, it's not.

>>20253704
Lefties arent White people.

>>20254198
>prefers being a monolingual pleb reading a translation which will annihilate all the aesthetics of the book
Americans lmao thank god mandarin will soon become the world’s lingua franca

>>20243969
What are you talking about?
I am a Spanish speaker, the quixote is the most difficult and profound work that I have read in my life.

>>20254623
Then what are they?

>>20254704
me gusta tortillas tambien and I couldnt get more than 10 pages in on the original version. tips?

>>20252518
Antiquated how?

>>20254645
unlikely since chinese are scheduled to demographically collapse and no one wants to learn chinese

>>20248981
Came here to say this. Don Quixote is written in old Spanish from the imperial Golden Age and that shit is complicated as fuck to understand for contemporary native spanish speakers, let alone a foreigner speaking it as a second or third language.

>>20251701
>from the penguin

>>20250802
>discord

>>20255663
Verbose and complex sentence structures. But perhaps this is a reflection of Cervantes, not the translation? I haven't read any other translation so I can't compare it. Smollett's version is more than 250 years old.

>>20255845
That’s Smollett’s style. He was a verbose writer, as was the general style in the 18th century. Reading anything translated by an 18th century writer is an exercise in reading their version of the text, more so a translation. Pope always had a nasty habit of deciding based on what he felt would make great poetry, not based on what fit best with the original intentions of the text he was translating.

>>20251701
>I got the Portuguese version translated by Ernani Ssóon from the Penguin

>>20244138
>>20244143
Based

>>20254645
It's too late, the moment the internet became based in english it was over for any other language

>>20258040
"the internet" is not some eternal spirit realm, it's just a bunch of companies offering services over a common infrastructure. it could all be gone tomorrow.

>>20258116
the revolution isn't happening Ted give it up

>>20258168
>my world will go on as it is forever

>>20258116
it could all end tomorrow, or it could go on forever

>>20251701
>not reading it in the original
<b-but I don't know Spanish
Neither do I

bump

>>20248468
keep living in denial, faggot.

>>20259894
spaniards gettin mad in the comments

>>20251721
>May 22th
>May 23th

>>20243951
Just stop at the first half. Second half is just nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtWnpc5Hv2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4t1jju_XeM
https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp
https://www.dvdflick.net/download.php
https://subdl.com/s/subtitle/sd24377/donkey-xote
Just do this instead

>>20260280
Damn, the subtitles are out of whack.
Are there any algorithms that can can move ever single numerical index by a fixed amount?

>>20259984
Pleb. Second part is even better than first part.

>>20246497

It isn't. All Quixote's editions in Spanish have a thousand of notes because it has many words we don't use nowadays. I'm a native Spanish speaker btw

>>20260981
What’s your take of the RAE (Real Academia Española)?

>>20260990
Real Academia Espanola? More like the imaginary lung espionage

>>20260997
>maginary lung espionage
Huh?
I’m Australian so I have no clue other than a State language body.

>>20251309
I already started hehe

just picked up my copy (Grossman chad reporting in). excited as I've been wanting to read it for a while. i hope it is as witty as I've heard it is