/lit/ - Literature

From an outsider perspective the German mediasphere seems pretty lively, both online and off, though not as distinct as it used to be. It seems Germans online barely ever talk about their own country when they're in places like 4chan or twitch, and almost always prefer to speak only in English. It's almost kind of weird how much they blend in

How about Die Morawische Nacht (The Moravian Night) 2008 by Peter Handke?

bümp

Bump

>>20249767
Germans have forgotten how to speak their language.

>>20249767
Now, nothing more perverse can be imagined, than the adoption by German writers of that attribute which makes the French such brilliant virtuosi on the ground of speech. The attempt to treat the German language as an instrument of virtuosity could only occur to those to whom the German tongue is truly alien, and who therefore twist it to improper uses. None of our great poets and sages can be rated as virtuosi of speech: every one of them was in the same position as Luther, who had to ransack every German dialect for his translation of the Bible, to find the word and turn to popularly express that New he had discovered in the sacred books' original text. For what distinguishes the German spirit from that of every other culture-folk is this, that its creative sons had first seen something ne'er yet uttered, before they fell a-writing,—which for them was but a necessary consequence of the prior inspiration. Thus each of our great poets and thinkers had to form his language for himself; an obligation to which the inventive Greeks themselves do not appear to have been submitted, since they had at command a language always spoken by the living mouth, and therefore pliant to each thought or feeling, but not an element corrupted by bad pensters. In a poem from Italy how Goethe bewailed his being doomed by birth to wield the German tongue, in which he must first invent for himself what the Italians and French, for instance, found ready to their hand. That under such hardships none but truly original minds have risen to production among ourselves, should teach us what we are, and at any rate that there is something peculiar about us Germans. But that knowledge will also teach us, that if virtuosity in any branch of art is the evidence of talent, this Talent is denied in toto to the Germans, at least in the branch of Literature: who toils to acquire a virtuosity in this, will stay a bungler; if, following the musical virtuoso who composes pieces of his own, he trumps up poetical sketches for setting off his fancied virtuosity, however, they will not even belong to the category of the Mediocre, but simply of the Bad, the wholly null.

>>20249807
Its a bit like scandinavians in that english is easy for young people to learn because its close enough to their native tongue. Add to this to the fact that Germany’s past does not permit people to be proud of their country and the result is what you’re describing. Essentially ameriboos online wanting badly to convince people that they pass as american and feel validated when they can display their trivia knowledge to an american (“Texas? Isnt zat ze one where everyone hass guns or somezing?”).
Even within the country, colloquial german language is being overtaken by english words. Not in a clever way as the words being used have perfectly good german translations but just because, to a german, there seems to be something “cool” about english. Interesting to compare with France, where there have a lot of pride in their language and a greater resistance to linguistic globalism basically.

>>20251437
Germany is a USA colony, that’s why.

bömp

Not modern but I’ve been rereading Faust (translated by that pernicious wretch, Kauffman, can’t afford the McIntyre edition yet) and actually closely following along with the German as a point of comparison, it’s been edifying. Faust should be understood best as an alchemical Christian parable,

>>20251437
I like reading about Germany so it's a bummer you only hear about it online when the subject of politics comes up.

I really want to read Das Schelling-Projekt

>>20252905
We often decide to not talk about ourselves and Germany in public. Honest and truthful thoughts will be uttered behind closed curtains and doors, while sitting on the dinner table amongst family. It's a bit like Japan, where people are extremely adamant about not voicing their opinion and often, in fact, seem to even shy away from doing so in private.

Deutschland schafft sich ab.

Do Japanese find the regional german coat of arms quirky cool and unique the way we find their regional coat of arms cool?

>>20253224
Japan finds everything (western) european fascinating

>>20253224
>we find their regional coat of arms cool
We do?

>>20251437
IMO it's just a case of northern Europeans sort of naturally coalescing on the English-speaking internet because easy for them to learn English.

>reading contemporary literature
Es ist alles so mühsam.

For me, it's Sachsen-Anhalt.

>>20249807
All the Germans I see online critique America from the standpoint of gae Americanism. Shit like "Trust the experts more" and "Give up your guns". In turn, Redditors love Germany as it's an adult country where adults do adulting.

>>20253331
You called? I won't deny that it's nice here but mostly outside of the cities.

>>20253364
>All the people I see online critique America from the standpoint of gae Americanism. Shit like "Trust the experts more" and "Give up your guns".
The perception of American that most people on this planet have is one shaped entirely by the daily media storm. That is to say, perception as in ignorance. There is hardly real knowledge present and it's not exactly any different when compared with that of the average American in regards to Europe. People tend to repeat the same catchy bullshit regardless of country of origin, no one has the time to gather accurate information at this point. "Give up your guns and everything will work out" is a narrative prepared by the media. You're naive if you think 99% of the individuals that "critique" American from that standpoint, repeating this bland narrative, even know what that means or let alone think about it to begin with.
To some degree you might be right though. It's a little worse here in Germany, I'm guessing, because we love to gobbel up shit and repeat it. Keeps us from thinking and talking about our own national anal fissures.

I got these and a beautiful old (1890s - 1910s) physics textbook today. I have a newfound Reclam obsession

>>20253427
>You're naive if you think 99% of the individuals that "critique" American from that standpoint, repeating this bland narrative, even know what that means or let alone think about it to begin with.
Oh, I agree. Critique was the wrong word since it does imply they actually thought it over.

>>20253429
Ah, nice Incel-Buch!

>>20249807
>From an outsider perspective the German mediasphere seems pretty lively, both online and off, though not as distinct as it used to be.
What exactly do you mean with pretty lively?
>It seems Germans online barely ever talk about their own country when they're in places like 4chan or twitch, and almost always prefer to speak only in English. It's almost kind of weird how much they blend in
I feel one of the big issues here is simply our fairly negligible domestic young media and cultural sphere, combined with our very old population (Germany has a median age of about ~48 years behind only Japan and Monaco), causing most teens to look, especially since the internet came around, to look outside the country, which isn't particularly hard or surprising when nearly everyone has a serviceable command of English.

>>20253707
Not the same anon, but didn't a politician of the conservative party passed a law to promote the German language?

>>20253745
>Not the same anon, but didn't a politician of the conservative party passed a law to promote the German language?
I know of such ideas floating around since decades but I can't remember which exactly you might mean.

>>20253791
This one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Spahn

>>20253427
Ignorance is the natural state of man, reason rarely prevails when stronger motives exist. Americans tend to get irritated at (Western) Europeans commentating on their politics because Europeans are very politically minded and believe in the power of reasoning and dialectic to solve all problems, which is great, but do not realize how ignorant they are of the situation when they merely take the mainstream media's prepackaged view of it. And here many of them adopt a smug and patronizing attitude: They believe that Americans differ in opinion here because they simply don't think about it, because Americans are fat morons who take everything Fox News says as gospel, who would refuse to consider an opposing viewpoint even if it were rubbed in their face. And the irony here is lost on them.

Of course, Americans are prideful too - they're just not nearly as smug. Euros are correct to point out the ignorance of the American populace, but they're also hypocrites for not noticing their own pride, their own egotism, and their own lack of skepticism. Perhaps this is just how men are. 99% of humanity will die believing exactly what their society tells them to believe, and the best we can do is craft a society that teaches them the right things, rather than hope to teach them fully independent thought. Maybe I am wrong. I'm still not sure.

bämp

Yo, Anon.
Go read Elias Canetti's Blendung so I can make a thread about it.

>>20253707
>What exactly do you mean with pretty lively?
Well, it seems the amount of domestic German media being produced is quite high, and much like France, you could conceivably live and go online and do everything within that sphere. I don't know much German so I can't verify that though.

>>20249767
Not a German but I live in Germany.
I hate this fucking cuntry so much it's unreal. People here are the most retarded people I've ever interacted with.

Hey lads, maybe you guys can help me out. I need access to "Der Literarische Expressionismus Online", which is supposedly available for free, but everywhere I go I apparently need some login data or a license or whatever. Can anyone help me out here?

>>20255882
Of course you will not just enter the thread and leave it at that, right? Surely you will elaborate and then explain why you're still staying in a country populated by "the most retarded people" that you've interacted with.

>>20256078
No.

>>20256082

>>20256082
So it's attention-seeking and nothing else.

bump

>>20251437
>Even within the country, colloquial german language is being overtaken by english words. Not in a clever way as the words being used have perfectly good german translations but just because, to a german, there seems to be something “cool” about english
Same thing in Serbia and Croatia. We have words like "frendica" and "favorit". On top of that we also use entire English phrases while speaking Serbo-Croatian. You could take a stroll around Zagreb or Belgrade and you'll hear English on virtually every street corner

Has anyone here read pic related and can tell me whether I should get it?

>>20249807
It's extremely cringey to speak in your own language on an English speaking platform. If someone does it, I assume they are uneducated scum.

Has anyone read this? Is it good or is it masturbatory like that infamous Martin Luther biography?

>>20249807
American here. Went to Germany on vacation and noticed this exact problem in Hamburg, Berlin, and even some tiny town in westphalia or whatever it's called. Went to a party of college aged kids and everyone was speaking English, not just to me but to each other when I wasn't around even. I talked to my wehraboo friend with whom I share sympathies and we concluded that this was obvious Anglo imperialism bent on destroying the autistic national character of Germany in the most intimate sphere: your own minds! Honestly I was hoping that the Trump thing would turn Germans off of the language of those uncultured Americans, but it's obvious now that English is no longer a national language (though it hasn't been for centuries probably).. Even in the 2000s though you saw some European cultural chauvinism against Americans but it looks like that's over. If present trends continue a lot of countries in Europe are going to stop speaking their native languages altogether sooner than you'd think

>>20259340
Everyone spoke French in the 18th century and yet the German language survived that. It's just a fad.
Also, it's not very /lit/ related.

>>20259340
>a lot of countries in Europe are going to stop speaking their native languages altogether
This is a massive leap to make, has this ever happened anywhere besides Ireland?

>>20259340
>Went to a party of college aged kids and everyone was speaking English, not just to me but to each other when I wasn't around even.
That didn't happen. Either a few of them were Erasmus students or they just used a lot of English words.

>>20258527
I've read it. It's short and kinda nonsensical? Maybe I just don't have enough German history but mostly it's him shooting crossbow bolts, kidnapping people, getting into brawls with randoms and complaining about his enemies.

>>20259340
>Amerimutt here. Went to Germany on deployment and noticed this exact problem in an immigrant/student filled large city. Went to a party of students and everyone was speaking English. I talked to my German friend and concluded it was a concerted effort to destroy Germany. I realised globalisation by the USA has made English an international language. Even in the 2000s you saw a dislike of American culture but apparently that's gone now even though nobody wishes to be in the USA anymore. If present trends continue all the European countries with a high % of white population than the USA will stop speaking their own languages. But not the USA of course, even though we're only 50% white now.

What have been some good german contemporary authors?

Germany was never that great at literature compared to France, Russia or England. Their strength lies in philosophy, their fiction is forgettable.

>>20260784
Germany has Goethe, Mann, Hesse and Kafka, so I'm inclined to disagree. Germany also has fantastic poetry, though that is probably hard to access to a non-native speaker.

Elfriede Jelinek, Herta Müller, Günter Grass, Heinrich Böll,

>>20251489
Cry more

>>20260784
Taking the piss, surely?
Hesse, Mann, Goethe, Kleist, Eichendorff, Keyserling, Lafontaine, Fontane, Büchner, Kafka, Lessing and so on. How many more do you need before you realize that this is complete nonsense.

Do Austrian writers count? I had a good time with pic related. The short stories were all very enjoyable.

>>20252837
MacIntyre's translation is available on archive dot org.
Here's the link:

I'm reading Jelinek's die Klavierspielerin right now, and it's great so far. The main character has a type of narcissism and everyday sadism that feels very realistic and petty.

>>20261532
Looks interesting, might read it next

>>20261514
Hermann Hesse war ein erbärmlicher Scribbler, der stets den selben Roman über einen intellektuellen Nietzsche-Leser auf Selbstsuche neu aufgegossen hat. Sprachlich ist er nur mäßig begabt im Vergleich mit anderen Prosa-Artisten, und an künstlerischer Tiefe steht er seinen Idolen (Dostojewski, Nietzsche, Novalis etc.) in jedweder Hinsicht nach. Das würde er selbst genauso sehen. Goethe, Kleist, Eichendorff, Büchner Lessing kann ich unterstützten, für Großväterromane Fontanes interessiere ich mich nicht.

Hast du gerade Oskar Lafontaine als Beispiel eines deutschen Autoren genannt? Lmao

>>20261595
>Oskar Lafontaine
Besser als Schwesterwelle!

>>20261595
August Lafontaine du Brotfahrer

>>20261595
Du schreibst wie ein Mittelstufendeutschlehrer

>>20261626
ich bin ein Mittelstufendeutschlehrer

>>20261626
*Lehrerin
>für Großväterromane Fontanes interessiere ich mich nicht.

>>20261651
vallah wenn ich Romane über Aristokratenhuren lesen will greif ich zu Tolstoj oder Flaubert

>>20261665
Wurm.

>>20261648
That must be the least satisfying job in the world. Teaching kids who hate reading to read.

>>20261595
Ahnungsfreie Finger tippten diesen Pfosten.

No, no, guys, please go on, we have a lot to learn from you.

>>20261893
It's fine, bratan. He doesn't like Aristokratenhuren.

>>20255898
bumping this request

I hate Germany so much it's unreal

>>20262884
I'm German btw

>>20259448
If by “everyone” you mean the elite. Now even plebs speak English.

>>20255898
You are right in that you need a license. If you are German (or live in Germany) you can get one for free. If not try with your university whether you can access it through them.

>>20249767
Germany as a nation pretty much ceased to exist in 1945, you're just looking at the rotting carcass.

In the end, it turned out pretty much like Wilhelm Marr predicted in the 1870's, and how the Talmud predicted it some 1500 years prior. And probably none of the Germans reading this even know what I'm talking about, which proves my point even more.

Finis Germanicae! Das Ende von Deutschland!

>>20263187
>all of Heidegger's post-WW2 philosophy doesn't exist

>>20262933
Where would I get that license?

>>20263217
Heidegger is a pretty good example. If you read his black notebooks, you'll know that he had many negative things to say about Jewry, yet he was unable to publicly explore his thoughts on the matter post-ww2 because the Jews had conquered his nation and put Esau back under the yoke of Israel, to use the Torah's language.

>>20263187
Dunno, man, Max Frisch is pretty nice.

>>20263345
Man in the Holocene is dope but some Scandinavian or Dutchman whose name escapes me right now did senility better

>>20263345
Max Frisch is Swiss

>>20251359
Absolutely true. It is rare consensus that the best are German and Germans are the worst.

>>20263187
How's the 8th grade going?

>>20263187
shut up loser

>>20263384
Yeah, well, I really like Dürrenmatt then!

>>20258527
Does anyone know the source for that cover's drawing?

>>20259340
>Even in the 2000s though you saw some European cultural chauvinism against Americans but it looks like that's over.
It was political chauvinism, not cultural. France during the ancien regime was the hated european continental hegemon bossing everyone and destroying everything under Louis XIV and yet people still were full francophiles culturally even after things like the Brussels bombardment. The same for America, we euros condemned every millionth middle eastern intervention of yours but never stopped being more like you.

bumping in hope of somer talk about actual literature and not the usual /pol/ and /int/ junk.

>>20249767
>Da treffen wir, wie die Hellenen in der dampfenden Erdspalte zu Delphi, auf den Mittelpunkt der grossen Welttragödie… Hier ist Alles erhabenes Grauen, nur in Räthseln ansprechbar. Seit jener Zeit, wo ich von der wundervollen Hohenschwangau-Woche nach München zurückkehrte, und bange Fragen über Unser Schicksal aufzuwerfen hatte, entstand mir, und verfolgt mich nun das Thema, das Uns sogleich beim Beginne dieses Aktes zu begrüssen hat, und Uns die Entscheidung, die letzte Frage, den letzten Willen des Weltengottes ankündigen soll.

>There we meet, like the Hellenes in the steaming chasm at Delphi, at the center of the great world tragedy... Here everything is sublime horror, only addressable in riddles. Since the time when I returned to Munich from the wonderful Hohenschwangau week and had to raise anxious questions about our fate, the theme has arisen and is now haunting me, which greets us immediately at the beginning of this act, and our decision, the last question, the last will of the world god is supposed to announce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOc6iZtukrs

This is the scene that Nietzsche based Zarathustra's Vorrede on.

>>20249767
Germananons, why did Nietzsche love Wagner and then turn on him?

>>20265057
From Nietzsche's letters while writing Zarathustra:
>With this book I have stepped into a new Ring
>Finally, if I am not completely mistaken about my future, it is through me that the best part of the Wagnerian enterprise will live on—and that’s what is almost droll about the affair.
>I am better now and I even believe that Wagner's death was the most substantial relief that could have been given me just now. It was hard for six years to have to be the opponent of the man one had most reverenced on earth, and my constitution is not sufficiently coarse for such a position. After all it was Wagner grown senile whom I was forced to resist; as to the genuine Wagner, I shall yet attempt to become in a great measure his heir (as I have often assured Fräulein Malvida, though she would not believe it).
>It's already beginning, what I prophesied for a long time, that in many pieces I will be R.W.'s heir.—

>>20265170
Yes but WHY? Was it the outspoken antisemitism that Nietzsche disagreed with? Was it his affinity for occult matters? The closest I've found is a few bits of Beyond Good and Evil where it seems that Nietzsche strongly disagreed with the antisemitism.

>>20249767
Nothing. Another side effect of Chancellor Merkel and her middle left politics. I don't know a single new german book released that was good enough to consider reading it. Some authors actually spoke up that there is a kind of invisible blck list in the industry now and if your work is not fitting with the current Zeitgeist you cant publish anything anymore because everyone rejects you.
Last time the book conversation was in Leipzig some groups suddenly started to thrash two booths because the were "Nazi Publishers" (=right of center,but still more mild than average republicans) and the Convention reacted by announcing they (meaning the publishers!) will not be allowed on the con anymore.

How the fuck are you supposed to write worthwile literature if the whole industry is self censoring to a degree that almost all great literature of the past would not have gotten a publisher today?

>>20260842
>Hesse
Hermann Hesse is garbage.

>>20265264
Nietzsche didn't have the freedom of thought to develop as a philosopher while still friends with Wagner, since it would and did involve the slander of much that Wagner believed in. Even if he didn't always believe what he said, it was necessary for him to say it. He makes this clear in Ecce Homo.

>Famously, in his published writing Nietzsche sets up Bizet against Wagner, declares Carmen to be the greatest of all operas, and compares its music favourably with Wagner's in a certain amount of detail. But he does not believe this either. Privately, in a letter to a friend he writes: 'What I say about Bizet, you should not take seriously the way I am, Bizet does not matter at all to me. But as an ironic antithesis to Wagner, it has a strong effect' (27 December 1888). It does indeed, and has been quoted ever since. We begin to realise who, as between Nietzsche and Wagner, is the actor, the master of insincere effect. As for Wagner the man, although Nietzsche heaped almost incredible public abuse on his head ('Is Wagner a human being at all? Isn't he rather a sickness?' — this remark in The Wagner Case is representative of dozens such to be found in his writings) he never, in spite of himself, lost a vivid sense of Wagner's greatness. In the last year of his effective life he wrote to a friend: 'Wagner himself, as man, as animal, as God and artist, surpasses a thousand times the understanding and the incomprehension of our Germans. Whether it is the same with the French I do not know.' (26 February 1888).

>>20265423
Why do you think so? Steppenwolf is good

>>20252837
You liked the part 2? Was it too crazy?

>>20265423
He had more to say than lot of hacks that lit and other fags like to circlejerk on the regular.

Speaking of Hesse, I pulled two collections of him out of a Bücherschrank yesterday: one of them titled "Weg Nach Innen" containing "Kinderseele", "Wanderung", "Klein und Wagner", "Klingsors letzter Sommer" and "Siddhartha".
The other one, just titled "Erzählungen", is partitioned into a first part called "Diesseits" containing "Die Marmorsäge", "Aus Kinderzeiten", "Eine Fußreise im Herbst", "Der Lateinschüler", "Heumond", "Schön ist die Jugend", "Der Zyklon" and "In der alten Sonne", and a second part called "Kleine Welt" containing "Die Verlobung", "Walter Kömpff", "Ladidel", "Die Heimkehr", "Robert Aghion", "Emil Kolb" and "Der Weltverbesserer".
Any notable shortstory I am missing? I am entirely unfamiliar with Hesse besides reading Unterm Rad in school, and not remembering much of it. I know Siddhartha is well liked around /lit/, but what other of these story can you guys recommend? I don't know if I will read all of them, but I might if I like them.


>>20265740
Everyone who doesn't enjoy Faust 2 should go back to his childhood state and start to learn reading all over again. Then 10 years later he should try reading it again.

>>20265998
Those are some nice collections anon, I'm jealous. You're missing Der Morgenlandfahrt. Most of the stories in Kleine Welt, and also Klingsors letzter Sommer, link into the world of Der Morgenlandfahrt which builds up to the magnum opus Das Glasperlenspiel. If you want to dive into this, great, you can keep yourself busy for a year or two.
However I should note that Hesse's work can feel a bit samey and it might not be for you, given that Unterm Rad failed to make any impression on you. Personally that book hit me like a truck and filled me with melancholy for months.
I think reading the books in Weg nach Innen in order, potentially skipping Klingsors letzter Sommer, should be a great way to prepare yourself for Siddharta. That book says so much about the human condition, it's a deeply profound experience if you're in the right state of mind for it.

>>20265998
I have to say that Faust part 2 is far more difficult to read than part 1. German is my third language and although I understand what is written I think a lot goes over my head. Faust, and certainly the second part should be constantly read throughout your life.

Anyone here that reads Hölderlin? I have read Hyperion and some of his odes

>>20266057
Alright, thank you for the rough guidelines. I'll think I will start with Weg Nach Innen then.

>given that Unterm Rad failed to make any impression on you.
Well, it was in 8th grade or so, which was 15 years ago. I am honestly not even sure if I fully read it back then. So I don't think the fact that I forgot about it means all that much. A lot of the lit I read in school I liked a lot more when I re-read it years later.

>>20266061
Faust 2 is definately difficult. Even to a native speaker I would only ever recommend an annotated version.

>>20266065
I have recently tried to get into his poetry, but it never really clicked. The meter is just too weird, it feels like half-assed free verse a lot of the time which it obviously isn't, but it makes it very inaccessible for a meter autist like me. I barely get to focus on the content because I keep getting hung up on the weird and seemingly arbitrary rhythm of the lines. He probably won't ever be my favourite poet, but some poems I liked so far were "Dichterberuf", "Natur und Kunst" and "Hymne an die Freiheit".

stups

in the 1960's Konrad Zuse wrote an interesting paper on his theory of the universe as a computer:
https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/digitalphysics.html

Sloterdijk

>>20265740
Can’t comment, Kauffman has the temerity to claim he’s presenting the truest vision of Faust in English yet and then in the same breath he justifies omitting almost the entirety of act 2, because he wants people to be able to say they “enjoyed” reading it. So I’ve only read the first and last scenes of Faust II. It’s jung and Hegel that have been pushing me to read it in its entirety.

>>20261571
Thanks for that, great post. Still looking for a physical German-english copy for my library though

one last bump before i go to bed