/lit/ - Literature

>>20222071
he was an opium addicted theosophist hack

he got a ton of stuff wrong, especially on Sufism and Catholicism, and generally just mistook his opium stupors for genuine Hindu insight (never set foot in India but will tell you exactly how things are over there)

>>20222071
>Who was this guy?
allow me to fill you in

>Rene Guenon is the most correct, smartest and most important person of the twentieth century. There was no smarter, deeper, clearer, absolute Guenon and probably could not be. It is no coincidence that the French traditionalist René Allé in one collection dedicated to R. Guenon compared Guenon with Marx. It would seem that there are completely different, opposite figures. Guenon is a conservative hyper-traditionalist. Marx is a revolutionary innovator, a radical overthrower of traditions. But Rene Halle rightly guessed the revolutionary message of each of Guenon's statements, the extreme, cruel noncomformity of his position, which turns everything and everything upside down, the radical nature of his thought.

>The fact is that René Guenon is the only author, the only thinker of the twentieth century, and maybe many, many centuries before that, who not only identified and confronted with each other secondary language paradigms, but also put into question the very essence of language. The language of Marxism was methodologically very interesting, subtly reducing the historical existence of mankind to a clear and convincing formula for confronting labor and capital. Being a great paradigmatic success, Marxism was so popular and won the minds of the best intellectuals of the twentieth century. But R. Guenon is an even more fundamental generalization, an even more radical removal of masks, an even broader worldview contestation, putting everything into question.

- Aleksandr Dugin

>Guénon undermined and then; with uncompromising intellectual rigour, demolished all the assumptions taken for granted by modern man, that is to say Western or westernised man. Many others had been critical of the direction taken by European civilization since the so-called 'Renaissance', but none had dared to be as radical as he was or to re-assert with such force the principles and values which Western culture had consigned to the rubbish tip of history. His theme was the 'primordial tradition' or Sofia perennis, expressed-so he maintained-both in ancient mythologies and in the metaphysical doctrine at the root of the great religions. The language of this Tradition was the language of symbolism, and he had no equal in his interpretation of this symbolism. Moreover he turned the idea of human progress upside down, replacing it with the belief almost universal before the modern age, that humanity declines in spiritual excellence with the passage of time and that we are now in the Dark Age which precedes the End, an age in which all the possibilities rejected by earlier cultures have been spewed out into the world, quantity replaces quality and decadence approaches its final limit. No one who read him and understood him could ever be quite the same again.

- Gai Eaton

>>20222084
t. hylic

>>20222084
>he was an opium addicted theosophist hack
stopped reading right there, I am not interested in disrespectful ramblings

>>20222071

>René Guénon defies classification. . . . Were he anything less than a consummate master of lucid argument and forceful expression, his work would certainly be unknown to all but a small, private circle of admirers.”
—Gai Eaton, author of The Richest Vein

>“Guénon established the language of sacred metaphysics with a rigor, a breadth, and an intrinsic certainty such that he compels recognition as a standard of comparison for the twentieth century.”
—Jean Borella, author of Guénonian Esoterism and Christian Mystery

>“To a materialistic society enthralled with the phenomenal universe exclusively, Guénon, taking the Vedanta as point of departure, revealed a metaphysical and cosmological teaching both macrocosmic and microcosmic about the hierarchized degrees of being or states of existence, starting with the Absolute . . . and terminating with our sphere of gross manifestation.”
—Whitall N. Perry, editor of A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

>“René Guénon was the chief influence in the formation of my own intellectual outlook (quite apart from the question of Orthodox Christianity). . . . It was René Guénon who taught me to seek and love the truth above all else, and to be unsatisfied with anything else.”
—Fr. Seraphim Rose, author of The Soul After Death

>“His mixture of arcane learning, metaphysics, and scathing cultural commentary is a continent in itself, untouched by the polluted tides of modernity. . . . Guénon’s work will not save the world—it is too late for that—but it leaves no reader unchanged.”
—Jocelyn Godwin, author of Mystery Religions in the Ancient World

>“René Guénon is one of the few writers of our time whose work is really of importance. . . . He stands for the primacy of pure metaphysics over all other forms of knowledge, and presents himself as the exponent of a major tradition of thought, predominantly Eastern, but shared in the Middle Ages by the . . . West.”
—Walter Shewring, translator of Homer’s Odyssey

>>20222071

>“In a world increasingly rife with heresy and pseudo-religion, Guénon had to remind twentieth century man of the need for orthodoxy, which presupposes firstly a Divine Revelation and secondly a Tradition that has handed down with fidelity what Heaven has revealed. He thus restores to orthodoxy its true meaning, rectitude of opinion which compels the intelligent man not only to reject heresy but also to recognize the validity of faiths other than his own if they also are based on the same two principles, Revelation and Tradition.”
—Martin Lings, author of Ancient Beliefs and Modern Superstitions

>“If during the last century or so there has been even some slight revival of awareness in the Western world of what is meant by metaphysics and metaphysical tradition, the credit for it must go above all to Guénon. At a time when the confusion into which modern Western thought had fallen was such that it threatened to obliterate the few remaining traces of genuine spiritual knowledge from the minds and hearts of his contemporaries, Guénon, virtually single-handed, took it upon himself to reaffirm the values and principles which, he recognized, constitute the only sound basis for the living of a human life with dignity and purpose or for the formation of a civilization worthy of the name.”
—Philip Sherrard, author of Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition

>“Apart from his amazing flair for expounding pure metaphysical doctrine and his critical acuteness when dealing with the errors of the modern world, Guénon displayed a remarkable insight into things of a cosmological order. . . . He all along stressed the need, side by side with a theoretical grasp of any given doctrine, for its concrete—one can also say its ontological—realization failing which one cannot properly speak of knowledge.”
—Marco Pallis, author of A Buddhist Spectrum

>“Guénon’s mission was two-fold: to reveal the metaphysical roots of the ‘crisis of the modern world’ and to explain the ideas behind the authentic and esoteric teachings that still [remain] alive.”
—Harry Oldmeadow, author of Traditionalism: Religion in the Light of the Perennial Philosophy

>>20222116
>dugin
so guenon was a russian psyop all along. at last, i truly see.

>>20222116
>>20222122
>>20222126
now say something from your own thoughts

>Wael Hallaq, scholar of Islamic law and intellectual history, has argued in Restating Orientalism: A Critique of Modern Knowledge (2018) that Guénon’s deep critique of modernity “is gaining enough appeal that it has become recently relevant for many intellectual concerns,” including postcolonial studies and environmental ethics (2018: 144). Hallaq suggests that Guénon offers a more thorough and effective critique of Western modernity than Edward Said (1935–2003) does in Orientalism (1978), arguing that “Guénon begins where Said ends” (2018: 145). Besides noting that Guénon was not discussed by Said, and in fact complicates Said’s concept of Orientalism, Hallaq valorises Guénon as being ‘ahead of his time’ with a prescient diagnosis of Western modernity’s destructive deviation from traditional metaphysics, social norms, and structures. He suggests that Guénon’s work “captures much of the best in recent social theory, Critical Theory, and cultural criticism, but without admitting the legitimacy of the system on which these critical theories insist” (2018: 145). As Sedgwick notes, Hallaq’s “use of Guénon represents a Traditionalist breakthrough into the Western intellectual mainstream”
(Sedgwick 2019).

>>20222138
When I read Guenon, I feel as though I am in the presence of a kindred soul, one who never loses sight of the highest amidst all the dreariness and emptiness of modern life. He effortlessly takes apart materialism and all the other modern errors, to my great delight, his arguments unfolding with a mathematical precision and slicing through his opponents like a hot knife through butter. I have him to thank for greatly expanding by intellectual horizons and for liberating me from several modern spooks that had been inculcated in me through the modern educational system. I see him as being a kind of informal saint.

>>20222071
PBUH

>>20222222
wasted digits.

>>20222071
>who got everything right or simply fully wrong
is not so much as geting eveyrthing wrong, but is metaphysics is completly outdated, Hegel already debunked all his metaphysical and logical point and exposed how the type of theology Guenon prwach end up leading to a form of tautological sophistry

>>20222222
holy based...

>>20222143
do you or anyone else have a pdf of Sedgwick's book on Traditionalism?

>>20222230
That's bullshit ESLanon, Hegel didn't debunk anything. Hegel never read Guenon, and nor did Hegel understand anything about Indian Philosophy. Hegel never read any primary sources and his """critique""" of Indian Philosophy doesn't even distinguish the different schools of Indian Philosophy from each other or identify the schools of Indian Philosophy to which he is referring, if at all. It's impossible to refute something without actually correctly identifying and describing its actual teachings, and Hegel never does this but just attacks a nonsensical strawman that he made up.

What Hegel does is as stupid as if someone tried to lump the entirety of western philosophy together as being all one single system and then tried to offer a general critique of it, it would be total nonsense and the same is true of Hegel's charges.

>>20222230
>Hegel already debunked all his metaphysical and logical point and exposed how the type of theology Guenon prwach end up leading to a form of tautological sophistry
how?

>>20222230
>outdated
>Hegel
dude... pure metaphysics is eternal, infinite and universal, there is no evolution with regard to such things and metaphysics is to be found only in religion, not philosophical speculation

>>20222258
It's not linked as a pdf on google but I'm pretty sure you can download it for free on b-ok.cc or libgen

>>20222284
send link if you have

>>20222222
checked and witnessed

>>20222230
Hegel thought that Indian philosophy was a strain of Schelling-esque pantheism. Which means that Hegel didn't know anything about them.
>tautological sophistry
You mean like Hegel's circular Absolute?

Just read Man and His Becoming for the first time a few nights ago. Definitively one of his best works. The explanation of and relative importance of dream states and deep sleep were worth it alone, even though they only comprised a few chapters.

>>20222296

https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=0AD1AAEF8CDEA2612C51EF6708D1FE4E

>>20222343
thanks anon

>>20222071
What is his best work?

I just finished reading East & West and it is unbelievable how prophetic it is considering it was written in 1924, especially calling out 'scientism' as if it was written yesterday

But what countries fit his criteria of the 'East' today? All countries in the East more or less have followed the West in its material progress, especially India & China. China has existed longer than any other civilization today so I can only think that it is the only country that fits his criteria, assuming this blip in industrialization is just temporary

>>20222402
>But what countries fit his criteria of the 'East' today?
The closest right now is probably Taliban-ruled Afghanistan desu, they are misunderstood as wahhabis but in reality they are more like Deobandi-influenced "nationalists" who just want to maintain sharia law in Afghan territory and mind their own business, many Taliban rank and file are sufis.

Bhutan is also still pretty Trad. Iran has a government that is sort of a compromise between an Islamic government and modernity. In India even though the city culture is westernized there are still various traditional communities in rural areas, and there are still plenty of temples filled with monks following the exact same lifestyles of learning spiritual doctrines, preaching to attendees, practicing yoga and meditation etc as they have been doing for centuries, the lifestyle of Hindu monks is basically unchanged except for that roaming people who knock on strangers doors for alms is less common than the medieval era (although it still occurs in some areas).

It's important to recognize a difference between the ruling structures of government and the actual lifestyle and attitudes of the population. Pakistan for example has a totally westernized government but also has large stretches of rural areas where people still live the same traditional Islamic lifestyles that they have for centuries, but with some modern amenities.

>>20222222
Biggest waste in all my years on /lit/.

>>20222402
>But what countries fit his criteria of the 'East' today?
Some of Guénon's observations concerning social criticism should be updated, like he would have done if he lived today. Still, he wrote that there were even back then westernized easterners, therefore the vast majority of easterners today are simply more or less westernized, and Guénon explicitly mentioned that by East he means the traditional east, which today has become a minority. In fact, he also wrote later in his life that the rectification of the West is becoming less probable and so do the ideas suggested by him in this regard, but there is nothing contradictory in all of this, the course of the Kali Yuga changes very fast during its final stanges and so should our observations concering temporal matters, we need to keep our eyes open and be realistic, a rectification of both east and west, using the tools of this Manvantara has become almost impossible.

>>20222498
it should make you think and take the shahada

>>20222222
Checked, witnessed; we're all Guenon-fegs now

>>20222233
Double checked and registered in the Book of Kek

>>20222277
Checked
>Hegel btfo

>>20222299
Checked
>>20222300
Checked and Hegel btfo

>>20222181
Same.

>>20222071
>his work is based on tradition
Nope just 19th century occultism.

>>20222117
>disrespectful
Respect is something you have to earn buddy.

>>20222116
>compared Guenon with Marx
Only a jewy lefty type would bother with either men.

>>20222116
>>20222122
>>20222126
You are just quoting a bunch of nobodies part of your circlejerling cult. The quotes also sau nothing

>>20222271
You have never read Hegel.

>>20222942
>Respect is something you have to earn buddy.
Guénon earned the respect of relevant traditional authorities (Ramana Maharshi and other advaitins, local sufis which greeted him as he was a wali, etc.), your respect on the other hand is irrelevant

>>20222960
And thats why you people will one day go into some concentration camp, you are just to smug and self rightious to respect people with different views. You people are worse the Jews.

>picked up Reign of Quantity after seeing this man regularly mentioned here
>the entire opening is a diatribe on how wrong Western society and great thinkers are/were wrong about this that and the other thing
>gives no evidence - simply states they are wrong bases all proceeding arguments based on the first claims
I dropped it a little into the second chapter. He seems to have tried laying out his argument like Aristotle, but unlike him Guenon just asserts a thing and bases his argument on it. Aristotle asserts a thing first too, but he distills it to its very fundamentals and does not make any unsupported, sweeping claim out of it

>>20223013
All his books build off his previous ones, the topics in Reign of Quantity directly relate to the arguments he lays out earlier in East & West and Crisis of the Modern World

>>20223013
He outlines a clear path for knowledge seekers to take in his works.
I agree with you that he does not have the rigor of thinkers such as Aristotle, however, this is a necessity for Guenon, as what he is teaching is beyond what is seen as contemporary academic discourse, in content and especially form.
The path which he outlines is one of metaphysical and inner experience, and thus the only way to truly understand his teaching is to experience it, otherwise it is as you said: claims. His standard for evidence supporting his claims are, in actuality, much higher than the sophistical and purposely obscure modern thinkers, as they are grounded in a self evident form of experience which defies characterization.

This is the challenge with Guenon, as his claims rest on the need to experience them, which is a process that his critics will never undertake, and thus they cannot properly engage with him.

>>20222222
Based Guenon worshipper

>>20222222
I kneel...

>>20223370
>The path which he outlines is one of metaphysical and inner experience, and thus the only way to truly understand his teaching is to experience it
but when he wrote thos ebooks he wasn't initiated, thus he didn't experience the thing you need experience to understand, most of his books deal with this problem, an unitiated man trying to establish the fundaments of initiation

>>20222402
>considering it was written in 1924, especially calling out 'scientism' as if it was written yesterday
dude people where critical of scientism centuries ago, you can read voltaire's critics to positivism like it was written yesterday
Heidegger did a much more deep and useful criticism to industrialsiation and positivism than Genon and both where contemporaries

>>20222117
Why the long face?

>>20222122
Truly a "Who's That" of esoteric philosophy.

>>20222222
Materialist bros... we lost...

>>20222116
dugin lauding someone is the opposite of a good thing...

>>20222222
Hylics will say wasted
Hyperboreans will say based

>>20223650
> but when he wrote thos ebooks he wasn't initiated,
Incorrect, before he had published any of his books he had been initiated into both Taoism by some Frenchman who had traveled to Vietnam and he also had been initiated into the Shadhili Sufi order by Ivan Agueli. Both of these were a number of years before his first book, which Sedgewick notes in his book. Guenon later received a second initiation into a different branch of the same Sufi order once he moved to Egypt.

>an unitiated man trying to establish the fundaments of initiation
ok retard

>>20223650
There is no possible way that you could back up o justify that statement, and by saying that you have revealed yourself as dishonest.

Retroactively refuted

>>20222222
mashallah

>>20222222
>those digits
unironically starting Guenon because of this post
what book should I begin with bros?

>>20224097
> what book should I begin with bros?
His first book, ‘Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines’, it’s not as amazing as his later works but it does help greatly in understanding them, he gives some systematic definitions of how he understands certain terms that get repeated often. Its a good idea to read his books more or less chronologically. The books on Theosophy and the Spiritualist Fallacy are good but you can skip them and come back to them later if you want to get to his main writing on modernity and metaphysics quicker.

>>20224125
luckily, that's the only book of his I physically own
what should I read after? is pic related any good?

>>20222222
Years of thrashing Guenon for nothing, but oh well
I kneel

>>20224142
what should I read after?
1) East and West
2) Man and His Becoming
3) The Esoterism of Dante (also optional but its very short either way)
4) The King of the World
5) Crisis of the Modern World

> is pic related any good?
Its not the worst chart but it doesn’t tell you that reading ‘Man and His Becoming’ is pretty essential to read before ‘Symbolism of the Cross’. His main metaphysics trilogy is
1) Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta
2) Symbolism of the Cross
3) The Multiple States of the Being

Its important that you read them in the above order since they strongly build off of each other, but its okay to read other of his books between #1 and #2 or between #2 or #3, ideally the ones published in between those chronologically.

>>20222071
>Who was this guy?
Some no one.

bump

>>20222945
> Only a jewy lefty type would bother with either men
Guenon demolished the foundations of most leftist and progressive narratives

>>20225302
Weird, you'd think demolishing the foundations of something would bring it down. I guess jeremiads don't have the same impact as wrecking balls.

>>20222071
>Guenon
Who?

>>20222222
Post that ended the kali yuga

>>20222222
Guenonsisters, I kneel.

>>20225657
> you'd think demolishing the foundations of something would bring it down
If Guenon was widely taught it would have that very effect. The only reason his writings have not caused the collapse of the modern globohomo paradigm is because they are not widely known or taught in primary and secondary education. Guy Debords work was once described as a "time-bomb" but it would be far more accurate to describe Guenon's work that way.

I've read his Crisis and East & West. I don't think that I ever read something so anti-colonialist in the true sense of the term, very different from leftists who simply want to replace official colonialism with some other western form of colonialism, namely humanitarianism with its socialist application. Peak hypocrisy.

>>20222222
Kek wills it. Guenon is truly the perfect and eternal avatar of /lit/.

Why did he settle for Islam while devoting most of his studied to Hindu doctrines

>>20226347
>Why did he settle for Islam while devoting most of his studied to Hindu doctrines
have you read him? didn't he explicitly stated that all traditions lead towards the same thing?

>>20226347
He couldn't even travel to India because the British denied him a visa, he applied for one though as he was interested in going. If he had gone to India he could have been initiated into some Shaivist or Shaktist school that don't care about caste.

>>20226390
>he could have been initiated into some Shaivist or Shaktist school
he was already initiated by hindus who went to France

>>20222402
>>20223667
Nietzche also wrote about the same shit

>>20226395
Did he ever claim that? I've only seen it repeated by others

>>20226418
Did he ever claim that he applied for a visa that was denied? I've only seen it repeated by others

>>20226438
The claim regarding the visa is made by Sedgewick in his book from what I recall, I don't recall his source or if he had one but I assume that Sedgewick wouldn't put that claim in there unless he had confirmation of some sorts. Sedgewick also brings up the claim that Hindus initiated him but Sedgewick claims to have found no evidence substantiating it.

>>20226357
Well, not all traditions. Only those he recognizes as traditions

>>20226472
>Only those he recognizes as traditions
and what tradition didn't he recognize? if you mean stuff like protestantism, mormonism, etc. than those aren't actual traditions but degenerations of other traditions, Guénon says that liberal protestantism can't even pass as religion and that mormonism is a pseudo-religion. So not actual traditions.

>>20226525
How about the Western tradition of empirical investigation, culminating in today's universities and research facilities, with their own initiatory processes, hierarchies, insider language and knowledge

>>20222222

>>20226546
>How about the Western tradition of empirical investigation, culminating in today's universities and research facilities, with their own initiatory processes, hierarchies, insider language and knowledge
this is not a tradition in the sense that Guénon defined it, not even a pseudo-tradition since the representatives of such a thing should view it as a tradition.

>>20226546
When he says “tradition” he referring to an eternal metaphysical truth which exists independently of humans, not in the sense of human historical customs.

Where to start with him? Will reading him convince me to convert to Islam?

>>20226602
Well, not really, he seems Islam and everything falling under Hinduism as traditions, but those are also just historical contingencies, their form determined by a specific place and time

>>20226694
>but those are also just historical contingencies, their form determined by a specific place and time
Guénon says that they are traditional forms, adaptations of the Primordial Tradition to time and place. Yet, they are emanations of that Primordial Tradition (pure metaphysics which is eternal and non-manifested), while modern customs have nothing to do with this Primordial Tradition, they are in fact its absence, like evil is the absence of good.

>>20226646

1. If you want to dive straight in, and aren't afraid of reading through some extremely crunchy and dense technical ideas, read "Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times".

For a gentler introduction, try "The Crisis of the Modern World"

2. Not necessarily. I became an Orthodox Christian after reading him, rejected many of Guenon's false ideas, but kept all of the legitimate insights he had. He has completely crushing critiques of modernism that can't be unseen - if you seriously read him, you won't be able to stay an atheist materialist, at least.

>>20226546
He addresses the question of the western tradition of empirical investigation in Chapter 4 of "The Crisis of the Modern World", titled "Sacred and Profane Science." Here's the first page from it.

>>20222222
>>20223707

>>20222071
He was good with theology but most of his stuff is anti western tripe

>>20226908
So if I have it right, Western empiricism is bunk because it lacks a metaphysical Absolute serving as centre which would order and reign in all the disparate fields of study. However, I don't find that to be true. Perhaps the people involved espouse atheistic, materialistic worldviews, but that doesn't mean the overall structure to which they belong is like that. The foundations of the project as a whole are very much metaphysically based in an Absolute, the logical relations and tautologies of math, which are a metaphysical Absolute par excellance, purified to a far greater degree from contigent, historical balast compared to Eastern religions.

>>20226957

Then, if you want to check out Guenon's thoughts on math, you should check out his work "The Metaphysical Principles of the Infinitesimal Calculus". He himself was a gifted mathematician.

Your point is right that science depends on math as a metaphysical absolute for its center, but mathematics is purely quantitative and says nothing about quality. It's no coincidence that his magnum opus is called "The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times". It was an exploration for how, as the world moves away from a traditional outlook, quantity and multiplicity gets favoured over quality as a natural sign of degeneration. You can see a metaphor of this in anything disintegrating, like an ice cube turning into steam - one thing becomes many, much smaller things, and stops being solid.

So then the fact that science is based on math gives it the capacity to present structured and rational hypothesis, but because these structured and rational hypothesis have no committed qualitative Absolute centre, then there are an indefinite number of potential foundations for empirical theories, and so an indefinite number of empirical theories.

One obvious example is parapsychology/anthropology that involves experiences of the supernatural - You can interpret as either legitimate experiences of magic/demons/near death experiences/etc, or just hyperactive imaginations. Both interpretations are derived from the same facts. Can you derive which one of these two views are correct from mathematics? No. Mathematics only deals with quantity - not quality, and the question of what is real, true and existent in reality depends on quality.

what are some prerequisites for readimg him

>>20226985

You could just read his introductory material, like "Crisis of the Modern World", "East and West", or "Introduction to Hindu Doctrines"

>>20226908
>I became an Orthodox Christian after reading him

>>20226980
The qualities which are ascribed to the absolute seem as antropomorphisations, giving it such attributes as virtue, knowledge, strength, etc. Besides, they also break apart the absolute unity which they supposedly also claim because the Absolute can then be divided as containing the atribute of virtue, knowledge, etc.
On the other hand, math merely posits 1=1, total unity, and submits all that can be observed to it, without the mentioned historical contingencies as specific books, ritual, holy languages, etc.

>>20222942
I'm sure you would have us think that people are jumping head over heels to earn your respect buddy.

>>20222222
BASED

>>20222229
Shudra dog

It is crazy how accurate Reign of Quantity is. Transhumanism is spirituality inverted ("overcoming" the human condition and becoming "immortal" through machines - in reality you would probably lose conciousness and go downwards, same as all these sjw tranny degenerates who have been "liberated"). There were some other things I remember him predicting as well, though I can't remember them right now.

>>20222084
fpbp

>knew 13+ languages and praised by actual initiates in various Traditions for his deep understanding of their respective Traditions
>hack
Sounds more like you're just interested in slandering him because you don't like him

>>20222222
Guenon (pbuh) reigns supreme. I kneel.

hey guys, do you have discord?
let's make a Guénon server
Baudouin#1172 is my username

>>20227979
lmao might as well call it the server of fags

>>20222071
>Was he an avatar, a prophet?
Stop worshipping people

>>20222222
holy based.
alhamdulillah.

>>20227714
>There were some other things I remember him predicting as well, though I can't remember them right now.
non physical money (crypto)

>>20227105
Cry about it, jej

Can a hindu autist explain why Guenon says the kali yuga is about 6000 years long but other hindus say it is hundreds of thousands of years? Like over 400000

>>20228835
Jesus would not have wanted you to say that to him. Behave yourself, christcuck.

>>20228023
What about a Guenon telegram chat?

>>20229013
Guenon is referring to something different than the Hindus who say its been around for hundreds and thousands of years.
He is talking about the current cycle, and says that Hinduism has been around fore the entire cycle. If asked, he would likely say that Hinduism, in essence, has been around forever, as within it are the Traditional metaphysics, and thus it is timeless.

>>20229013
Guenon believed that most of Hinduism was bunk and a sinful corruption of the original Arabic monotheism that is mankind's one true religion (this is also why he throws out most of the Greeks). He's jamming Quranic eschatology into a Hindu framework. This is also why he denies a golden age after the Kali Yuga (as there is none in Islam).

>>20227131

>The qualities which are ascribed to the absolute seem as antropomorphisations, giving it such attributes as virtue, knowledge, strength, etc.

Why do assume they are anthropomorphisms? How do you know that virtue, knowledge, strength, etc aren't Absolute-morphisms? If you're coming at this from an atheist perspective, where you believe that all human ideas of the absolute are projections of their mind, then why don't you submit mathematics to the same scrutiny?

Also, re-iterating your point about why math is based isn't addressing any of the points about how the actual qualitative aspects and meanings of scientific theories aren't derived from math, something as basic as whether or not something actually exists.

>>20229017

"I don't have any morals, but if I shame him for not living up to what I believe his own moral standards are, then he might do what I want."

Literal parasite Jew behavior.

>>20229276
I have a moral code, but it isn't christian/slave morals. Christians are really bad at following the teachings of christ, at least judging from the uniquely peurile behaviour they are frequently exhibiting on here. Christianity/slave morality promotes weakness, so it comes as no surpise when christians are too weak to follow their own moral code. The current state of the world s thanks to weak christian men. Abrahamic religions are a plague to the west, part of the same semitic virus which you despise in other forms. White men should follow aristocratic master morality, slave morals are for the lower castes/races.

>>20229366
Nah I think it'll pass on your gay larp religion that has the chief diety eat sperm like a fag.

>>20229366
>The current state of the worlds thanks to weak christian men
This is just false. I live in one of the most secularized countries on earth and we're being run over by Muslims. We were a strong nation as faithful prots. Libtardism is the new religion that is turning men into literal bug people, not Christendom.

>>20229411

His point would be that it was run over by Muslims and Libtardism precisely because the faithful Prots were too weak to stand up to the incursion of Islam and Libtardism. Western Christianity is weak, and he's citing Nietzsche and his critiques of Western Christianity, which are all correct. Orthodox Christianity doesn't fall to those critiques.

If he was logically consistent, he would then realise that, if his ancestors pagan faith was replaced by the "weakness-promoting" Christianity, even when the whole civilization believed in it and were united in it, and Christianity was replaced by Islam/Libtardism, then his isolated reconstructionist pagan faith has literally no chance to survive against Islam or Libtardism either.

But he's not going to be logically consistent, because his blood-and-soil vulture religion of LARP reconstructionism is feminine posturing.

>>20229271
I assume they are antropomorphisations because my knowledge of these atributed is derived from my direct experience with humans.
You chose to ignore the main point, which is that these attributes break up the unity of the Absolute. If you didn't decide to overlook that part, you would have seen that what I said about math wasn't a repetition

>>20229395
Stick to your slave morals, but they make you weaker. That is horrible reasoning btw. I will also once again point out that you are not following the teachings of christ very closely.

>>20229470
This is correct, and actually I would remain logically consistent and admit pre-christian spirituality/pagan philosophy fell to an inferior semitic cult, just as later the inferior semitic cult fell to inferior atheism or libtardism or whatever we call it. My point is still valid, pre-christian spirituality or "philosophy" and morals is aristocratic master morality, semitic religions are much closer to slave morals. One promotes strength, the other weakness. I'm not interested in "reconsutructing paganism" or whatever. I'm more interested in the inner attitude or personal philosophy of the individual, which I see christianity hindering in a lot of people. Many people already have some intuitions of this pre-christian aristocratic morality but won't admit that it is at odds with christian dogma, and when you point it out they lash out, since they are so personally attached to their plebian semitic cult.

When it comes to esotericism and true spirituality that would be a separate issue.

>>20229470
>Orthodox Christianity doesn't fall to those critiques
Why not?

>>20222222
hylicbros...it's over...I kneel....

>>20222084
>never set foot in India but will tell you exactly how things are over there
Shitty and smelly

Guenon makes a statement in Perspectives on Initiation that he believes Masonry to be a legitimate initiatory organisation. Yet, he does not substantiate this. Are there records of the initiatic chain like in the Sufi schools?

>>20229654

Orthodox Christianity retained the ascetic and esoteric nature of the original Christianity, of the continual struggle of conquering the fallen human nature, and rejecting the world. When I say esoteric, I don't mean "it retains a secret core that is exactly the opposite of what most people think Christianity is", I mean that it directly opens up the mystical dimensions of life, of the spiritual life of the soul, and the direct experience of God.

Notice that Nietzsche had nothing but admiration for Christ himself, but absolutely hated Western Christians. This is because Nietzsche fully recognized that Christ had the strength of character to rejected the world, and be indifferent to worldly gain in favour of the Kingdom of Heaven.

But, Western Christianity and Western Christians have lost this ascetic and esoteric aspect, and have reduced Christianity into a system of worldly moralism, social progress, social justice, social egalitarianism, etc. This is where slave morality comes from - from twisting Christianity into a religion with worldly goals, when everything to its core is about rejecting the world as vanity. This is where he correctly identifies Communism as a secularisation of Christian values - the twisted attempt to have the Kingdom of Heaven in this world, instead of the next.

Meanwhile, Orthodoxy has never stopped producing world-rejecting Saints and ascetics. The yearly commemoration calendar is jam-packed full of hundreds of Saints per day who have lived a true world-rejecting life.

Ultimately, Orthodoxy retained it because it is the true Church that has retained the Holy Spirit poured onto the Church from Pentecost, but if you don't already believe in God then this point would be meaningless to you.

I remember reading a chapter on characteristics that help identify Traditional doctrines in one of Guenon's books. Been trying to find it, does anyone know it off the top of their head?

>>20229654
>You chose to ignore the main point, which is that these attributes break up the unity of the Absolute
Not in the Advaita Vedanta metaphysics that Guenon bases his work on, since the 3 terms given as constituting the definition of God/Brahman's essential nature are considered to not refer to three separate attributes but are each term is considered to negate an idea about Brahman, like 'infinite' negating that it's finite etc, so that all three terms in unison point to something having an undivided singular nature whose conception we arrive at through negating 3 wrong ideas about it, namely untruth, insentience and finitude.

>>20222071
he was a freemason

Why did he convert to Islam instead of Hinduism?

>>20230112
This was most likely intended to answer some post other than mine, but I'll answer nevertheless. Orthodoxy has perhaps retained a more visible aspect of asceticism, but it has failed to uphold Christian values as much as Catholicism. In every state which is predominantly Orthodox the Church is always closely tied with the government and used as a mouthpiece for its ideologies and polici es, such as today with the Russian Orthodox Church justifying and propagandizing the war efforts against Ukraine. And those saintly ascetics aren't stepping out to remind people that this is opposite to Christ, but remain shut in their state-sponsored monasteries.
>>20230112
Just because the terms are framed as negation doesn't mean that they don't atribute different qualities to the Absolute. "it's not that it's untrue" is the same as saying "it is true." it's not that it is unsapient" is the same as saying "it is sapient". Same goes for "it's not that it's finite", meaning "it's infinite." therefore, it posits three dimensions to the absolute, one of truth, one of sapience, one of infinity. The conception of Absolute is therefore composite and not undivided. However, if you are the Orthodox guy, the conception of God there is even more obviously compositional.

>>20222071
Who was this guy?
goofy looking mf

>>20231141

Good that you brought up the state-subjugation of the Moscow Patriarchate, and how there seem to be no Saintly ascetics calling it out - because now I can tell you that there were in fact many Saintly ascetics who did exactly what you said they should do.

For Russia, these were members of the Catacomb Church, the underground Church that survived the Bolshevik genocide of Orthodox Christians, who refused to bow to the Soviet State as an authority, and ROCOR - the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, which is the free part of the Russian Church that escaped Russia into the diaspora. The Saintly ascetics of both of these groups did in fact step out and reminded people that subjugating the Church to the State is opposite to Christ.

There's even a name for this heresy - Sergianism, named after Patriarch Sergius, who signed the 1927 declaration that the Russian Church's goals are the same goals as the Soviet State.

Here's a couple links for further information about the Catacomb Church and ROCOR:

https://russiascatacombsaints.blogspot.com/ <- For a compendium talking about the Catacomb Church, with many lives of saintly ascetics recorded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z_N73aXJRY <- Excerpt from the letters of Fr. Seraphim Rose, a Saintly ascetic, talking about why ROCOR isn't in communion with the Moscow Church, precisely because of Sergianism.

>>20222222
witnessed

>>20231304
I haven't heard about a single monk that was removed from the Red Square because he wouldn't stop haranguing about the evil of war, this one in particular and in general. Wouldn't that be their most pressing duty in these circumstances, warning to the utmost of their abilities all of their brothers to save them from damnation? Contrary to what you say, this isn't happening.

>>20231759

Look man, if you don't want to actually follow up the leads I gave you that talk about the actual state of the confessors in the Soviet Union, and by extension the crypto-Soviet order of Modern Russia, then there's not much point in actually talking about this.

The Soviets martyr'd almost every monk that spoke up in the Red Square since the revolution began, and carted off the ones. The only ones that survived were the Catacomb Monks who discretely preserved the faith in those conditions, exactly like how they were discretely preserved in the original Roman Catacomb Period.

The Soviet-sanctioned monks obviously are fake monks who wouldn't dare speak against the Soviet authority. Those are the majority in Russia to this day.

Here's another account of the Catacomb Confessors, from recent times.

>>20231856

*and carted off the ones remaining to Siberea.

>>20231856
You said that the Orthodox faith is rich and true, the reasoning being that it continually produces actual Saints, people fully given to Christ, themselves Christlike, selfless. Where are they in these most trying of times? I would imagine that a saint would martyr themselves in these circumstances, walking to the very frontlines with the word of the Gospel on their mouth. "By their fruits ye shall know them!" Where is the true fruit? Sitting in a cave and repeating a prayer thousands of times could be meaningful for that person alone. But that is obviously not the core of Christianity. It's community building, reaching out to those in need, spreading the word of Christ. Who is more in need than those hurling themselves into eternal damnation by fighting in this war? Yet no one is coming to their help. You can't provide a link for that because it's not happening

>>20230112
meant as a reply to >>20227131

>>20231141
> Just because the terms are framed as negation doesn't mean that they don't atribute different qualities to the Absolute
Its not attributing separate attributes to the absolute but are three ways of pointing to and informing us about a singular undivided nature, negating finitude, falsity and insentience means that Brahman is an infinite and truly existing Entity that is of the nature of bliss-consciousness (which is not two things because in the ultimate analysis the supernal consciousness of Brahman is by nature bliss, i.e. consciousness is bliss). The infinitude of Brahman is not a separate attribute that would make Brahman a multiplicity for example because it just means that Brahman’s singular nature of being bliss-consciousness is all-pervasive and evenly fills everywhere and everything as the infinite reality underlying it. Similarly, ‘truth’ is not a separate attribute but is just telling us that the notion of Brahman is true and corresponds to the actual truth of the matter of what ultimate reality is.

>>20231141
>Just because the terms are framed as negation doesn't mean
It does. If you read Guenon, you would notice the basic failing of language in this respect. "Truth" (this word used very erringly) and pure Metaphysics cannot be encapsulated by language, which would be a limitation and therefore erasure of its own reality (that is when the Infinite, which is Metaphysics, is spoken of, it immediately becomes a false notion so far as it is to be reasoned about with language). The Non-Dual is neither Unity nor Duality, it transcends all of these categories, providing the basis for reality and the "categories" themselves, with everything being in it, yet it being not in anything else. The previous anon was wrong to assert that "Brahmen's essential nature" could be defined. Guenon says nothing like this, nor do any of the original books, the exact opposite in fact. At best one can give fleeting glimpses through the use of language, or better yet, actual symbolism, which is basically a higher and more expansive (therefore better at approximating) language. And even if we consider your rebuttal, understanding Unity and Being as being the same two things, does not imply that there are really two aspects, only that there are two mental aspects, when assuming a certain perspective, of which we can think. This was understood as long ago as Aristotle, who more or less identified Being and Unity as being substantially the same, keeping in mind that the Infinite is neither Being nor Unity.

>>20222222

All those who doubt the spiritual power of Guenon ought to check these digits.

>>20222071
NOT MORE GUENONPOSTS MAKE IT STOP I THOUGHT WE WERE DONE

>>20222071
>or simply fully wrong
this, if you actually get initiated in any order you'll realsie how wrong is trying to create a sort of universal initiation theory, initiation is created to awake the spirit, that is the most inner form of usbjectivity, thus eac region and each person have a different relationship with the process, trying to form a common denominator is the most anti initiatic thing you can do, is scientifism applied to initiation, thus an oxymoron

>>20222222
MASHALLAH I KNEEL

>>20232054

Ah, I see.

What you're talking about is an idea called "Social Gospel" - the idea that true Christianity is to get out on the streets and be an activisist, to be seen in the eyes of the world as a righteous person against public evils for the common betterment of mankind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_R0YfCJPSs

It's true that there are many Saints who have done extensive public working - but the majority of Saints, instead of acting like modern activists that the media loves so much, acted like Christ - preached repentance, led other people to repentance, and were hated by the world, because they stood against all worldly priorities. The recent movie, "Man of God" details the life of one of these recent Saints, St Nektarios of Eugena who was slandered and reviled by the world, and

If you were an anti-war activist, you would be loved by the world, and join in with a pro-Ukraine facebook profile picture if you were in the West, or a pro-Russia VK profile picture if you were in Russia.. Sure, the Saints aren't exactly pro-war, especially in this climate where the wars are completely fake and the people fighting in wars are being manipulated by higher powers, but it's not like you're going to shock people out of their materialistic stupor by telling them that war is bad. Every single materialistic person who fears death is afraid of war, because it brings death. Christians do not fear death, so protesting against war like a scared materialist isn't high on the list of priorities.

Frankly, you should check out what C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Screwtape Letters" about spiritual life in times of war. He got that aspect spot on - that more souls are lost in times of peace than in war, because disaster brings souls closer to God than any amount of comfort ever could.

> Sitting in a cave and repeating a prayer thousands of times could be meaningful for that person alone

If you were an atheist, and saw prayer as something like a therapeutic meditation exercise, this would make sense.

But, if you were a Christian, and actually knew what prayer was - actual direct communication with God - then you'd know that the extensive solitary prayer that monks do on behalf of the world is one of the reasons why the world hasn't already gone to complete destruction, and is one of the reasons that so many souls are saved in the world. Many clairvoyant elders have prayed for people they knew in the world, for needs they didn't know they had - Elder Joseph the Hesychast is an example of one of these elders, and he gave evidence of his clairvoyance and prescient prayers in his letters of correspondence to his nuns.

>>20232123
> The previous anon was wrong to assert that "Brahmen's essential nature" could be defined. Guenon says nothing like this, nor do any of the original books, the exact opposite in fact
I was speaking loosely, but Shankara does in fact say in his commentary on Taittirya Upanishad 2.1.1 that it provides a definition of Brahman, although he says that instead of completely denoting or delineating It (which is impossible) that the definition works by indirectly indicating Brahman’s nature via marking It out as distinct from other things, and he affirms in his commentary on the same passage that no verbal formula is sufficient to fully convey knowledge of Brahman.

>>20229017
>WWJD
Sorry, but 90s Evangelical cuckoldry doesn’t work on me.

>>20222222
OK going to finally start on Guenon. Where do I start lit bros?

>>20232568
Go to the /lit/ wiki and go to the charts page. You’ll find two different charts; I went with the one that includes some other traditionalists like Upton. Start with East and West, and The Crisis of the Modern World.

>>20232259
where do I start with Orthodox Christianity?

>>20232568

see >>20224125 & >>20224210

>>20232605
I’ve seen some criticisms of this particular chart, but I started with The Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ. My next target is From Glory to Glory, which does not appear on this chart.

>>20232605

God's Revelation to the Human Heart by Fr. Seraphim Rose is probably the perfect introduction.

https://au1lib.org/book/5670062/a9a908

Try to find an Orthodox Church that's actually open and serving the divine liturgy near you. There's no substitute for it.

I got you stuck off the realness, we be the gnosis
You heard of us, official non-dual murderers
The Trads comes equipped for memetic warfare, beware
Of my autodidact family who got nuff tomes to share
For all of those, who wanna profile and pose
Retroactively refute your favorite philosopher, make you give on your role as their expositor
You all alone in these threads, hylic
Every man for they self on this board we be postin
And keep them shook pseuds running, like they supposed to
They spam pastas but they never come close to realization
I can see it inside your face, you're in the wrong thread and finna get an education
Buddhists like you just get they religion laced up
With retroactive refutations and such
Speak the wrong words man and you will get debunked
You can put your whole Guenonfag screencap collection against my team and
I guarantee you I'll be the very last one postin
Your modernist assumptions just don't move me, you're minor, we're major
You're all up in the debate and don't deserve to be a poster
Don't make me have to call your maya-based delusions out
Your theory is refuted, my Guenon (pbuh) quotes make you hesitate
I'm only eternal and unborn but my mind is old
And when the things get for real Brahman dawns in my heart removing the cold
Another Process philosopher destroyed, another story gets told
It ain't nothing really, hey, yo dun spark the opium
So I can get my mind off these duplicitous materialists
Why they still posting I don't know, go figure
Meanwhile back on the Guenonian discord the realness and foundation
If I attain fanāʾ I couldn't choose a better location
When Shankarcharya's arguments penetrate Buddhists feel a burning sensation
Getting closer to Allah (swt) in a tight situation
Now, take these words hylic and think it through
Or the next rhyme I write might be about you
>>20222084

>>20222084
he never got anything wrong about sufism because it's pure muslim kabbalah and his entire interest in islam was just sufi freemasonry anyway. and, like his fellow martinists, he was just a synarchist, which is just the historical endgoal of clericalism, so he wasn't wrong about catholicism either.

>>20222071
Like all notable French intellectuals, he was a talented plagiarist of German ideas.

>>20234401
>he was a talented plagiarist of Ger

The English mentality, of course, has no aptitude for metaphysical conceptions, but it does not make any pretension in this respect either, while the German mentality, which is not really better endowed, has the greatest illusions. To realize this, we need only compare what the two peoples have produced in terms of philosophy.

The English mind hardly left the practical order, represented by morality, sociology, and experimental science, represented by the science of psychology which it invented. When the English mind is concerned with logic, it is above all induction that he has in view and to which he gives preponderance over deduction. On the other hand, if we consider German philosophy, we only find in it hypotheses and systems with metaphysical pretensions, deductions from a fanciful starting point, ideas which might seem to be profound when they are simply nebulous; and this pseudo-metaphysics, which is everything that is farthest from true metaphysics, the Germans claim to find in others, whose conceptions they always interpret according to their own

- Rene Guenon

>>20222222
Holy Based! 2022 confirmed end of KaliYuga

>>20222071
So is this guy like Hegel in the sense that none of his writings make any sense, yet he is belowed by pseuds because of how dense his texts are, or is he a brilliant and underrated thinker? Are there some "samples" of his thinking that I could read before I dedicate myself to more of his writings?

>>20235103
>So is this guy like Hegel in the sense that none of his writings make any sense, yet he is belowed by pseuds because of how dense his texts are, or is he a brilliant and underrated thinker?
Most assuredly the latter

>Are there some "samples" of his thinking that I could read before I dedicate myself to more of his writings?
Yes, these essays

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/Oriental_Metaphysics-by_Rene_Guenon.aspx

http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=A_Material_Civilization_by_Rene_Guenon.pdf

Reading Man and His Becoming currently.
What's a good translation of the Brahma-Sutra and Shankara's commentary?

>>20234266
wtf didn't knew that you are guenon-pilled

>>20235759
>What's a good translation of the Brahma-Sutra and Shankara's commentary?
I recommend Gambhirananda's translation of his Brahma Sutra Commentary.

I would recommend holding off from reading it until you've read all of Shankara's Upanishad commentaries first though (also all translated by Gambhirananda or Madhavananda) because large parts of the Brahma Sutra commentary may seem unintelligible otherwise. It's in his Upanishad commentaries where he explains how Advaita is derived from the Upanishads and explains the basic principals of Advaita and answers common objections etc; whereas in the Brahma Sutra commentary he sorta assumes the reader is already conversant with everything addressed in his Upanishad commentaries and he is mainly 1) showing how all the primary Upanishads can be reconciled as internally consistent and teaching the same message and 2) refuting the other schools/interpretations.

These two links contain 8 out of his 10 authentic Upanishad commentaries, the only two ones not included are the Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya Upanishad commentaries, which are each around 500-700 page standalone books.

https://estudantedavedanta.net/Eight-Upanisads-Vol-1.pdf
https://estudantedavedanta.net/Eight-Upanisads-vol2.pdf

>>20231304
>>20233873
People (especially Eastern Orthodox) should stop promoting Seraphim Rose as a “Traditionalist” or “Perennialist”. Rose before he converted to Russian Orthodoxy had an interest in Guenon and Schuon but not long after he converted it seems as if Rose dropped all the Perennialist leanings that he had.

Seraphim Rose during the 60’s certainly had Perennialist leanings (Interest in Taoism, Kali Yuga, Joseph de Maistre, Solovyov, Guenon, and Schuon) as can be seen in some of his letters from the period and his work titled “Nihilism”.

Eventually it looks as if Rose abandoned any leanings he had towards Perennialism starting in the 70’s (possibly late 60’s) mostly likely due to the influence of his jurisdiction, ROCOR. A definite change in his outlook can be seen in his work dating from the early 70’s onwards, “Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future”, “The Soul After Death”, and “The Orthodox Survival Course”.

In Rose’s later works you see a tendency to (poorly) attack the Traditions of both the West and the Far East. Everything from denouncing the Scriptures of India, attacking the Golden Legend, condemning the Crusades, denial of the Holy Grail legends, and Scholasticism.

Rose condemned figures from the West that Traditionalist and Reactionary thinkers (Guenon, Evola, Steiner, AKC, etc) appreciated such as Swedenborg, Solovyov, Aquinas, Joachim of Fiore, Louis Claude de Saint-Martin, Paracelsus, and even Dante during his “Orthodox Survival Course” Lectures.

Alexander Dugin, Wolfgang Smith, James Cutsinger and Rama Coomaraswamy are actual Christian Traditionalists that wrote about topics like Medievalism and the Perennial Philosophy.

Stop Larping.

>>20236987
They're not promoting him as a perennialist. He’s a former perennialist who’s path led him to conclude that the ultimate truth is Orthodoxy.

>>20236987
Rose hardly exposited even Eastern Orthodox traditions, for a serious individual it's best to look at actual Eastern Orthodox theologians, Rose critiqued Modernism in an Apologetic fashion, this is a bad first introduction to Orthodoxy for anyone serious.

>>20236996
>former perennialist
Well whatever, in a Guénon thread why try to shill a anti-perennialist, "We Shall See Him as He Is", by Archimandrite Sophrony is probably a better recommendation, or books by Phillip Sherrard, why orthobros have to come here in Guénon threads and shill Rose all the time makes no sense, in Rose's letter that they repetitively cite if they can tell me what Rose meant by Antichrist ≈ "Chalmakubi" I will respect Rose.

Anyone who sees this post, tell me what "Chalmakubi" is, what was Rose smoking when he wrote that, incorrect transliteration? Misremembered maybe, do you know?

>>20237003
I may be making some vague generalisations here, but that's as much as I know about Rose, if anyone Rose readers can send a genuine work on Metaphysics, some sort of meaningful explication of the Dogma of the Church which is not just used to critique social phenomena that would be appreciated.

>>20222222

>>20222071
yeah, I'm thinking Guenonposting is back

>>20237029

The root word of the first part, Chala, means deception/delusion/fraud, etc.

https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=Chalmakubi&dir=au

I don't know what the rest of the word means. Probably talk to an actual scholar of sanskrit to see if they can figure out a probable word match/modern transliteration.

>in a Guénon thread why try to shill a anti-perennialist

Because there's truth in the attitude that leads a person from modernism to perennialism, the impetus to reject the modern world, and return to the primordial tradition - but the contradiction in perennialism is that it takes a democratic, lowest-common-denominator approach to discerning what the primordial tradition is, which is why it tends towards a syncretistic gnostic esotericism, and everything that contradicts this in the particular traditions are conveniently treated as a mythological exoteric accretion that only the true initiates can see the esoteric meaning of. Perennialism, ultimately, is an attempt to escape modernity by using modernist assumptions.

Fr. Seraphim also, temperamentally, is closer to us in the west than Archimandrite Sophrony, or Phillip Sherrard, since Fr. Rose went through the path of Naive Protestant->Atheist->Buddhist->Perennialist to ultimately become Orthodox. His personal journey is very relatable to people nowadays who think seriously, and reject obviously shallow deceptions in our day and age.

>>20239825
>but the contradiction in perennialism is that it takes a democratic, lowest-common-denominator approach to discerning what the primordial tradition is,
That's not true, because if that were true then they would say the numerically most common school or sect is the primordial tradition, but in fact the one that Guenon, Schuon and Coomaraswamy settled on as being the most complete expression of the truth (Advaita) is an elitist and highly conservative sect that only initiates monks, and in some branches only Brahmin ones at that, while most of the lower-caste masses follow some bhakti-based theology.
>which is why it tends towards a syncretistic gnostic esotericism
Incorrect, Guenon specifically distinguishes synthesis from syncretism, Guenon never syncretizes anything but points out diverse elements from different traditions as sometimes agreeing while leaving them in their place instead of trying to combine and syncretize them into something new.
> Perennialism, ultimately, is an attempt to escape modernity by using modernist assumptions.
A goofy thing to say since people have been talking about it in both the West and East for thousands of years.

>>20240053

>That's not true, because if that were true then they would say the numerically most common school or sect is the primordial tradition

So then I misspoke when I said "democratic" since I didn't have in mind "raw numbers of adherents", but rather I was considering various traditions themselves as the demos, and the common factors between the traditions as what the lowest common denominator is.

> Guenon specifically distinguishes synthesis from syncretism

He distinguishes them in the sense that syncretism aims at combining external forms, since their inner content is conflated with external forms, due to the incomprehension of the syncretists.

I'm simply saying that, his analysis, is simply a syncretism at a deeper level. There isn't just an exoteric and an esoteric element to things - while there are terminal categories of exoteric at the absolute outer border, and terminal esoteric at the absolute inner, there are intermediary layers in which what is immediately esoteric to that layer, is exoteric to the layer even deeper.

My claim is strong: The perennialists, despite having very good insights and being very learned and virtuous men, are spiritual dilettantes who see a superficial similarity between the initiatic inner core of traditions, and have decided on this superficial level of spirituality that they all are branches of a common primordial tradition.

On what grounds do I make this claim? At the deepest core of Orthodox Christian spirituality, is a direct personal experience of the Holy Trinity. That's the esoteric limit of Orthodoxy.

However, above this esoteric limit, are experiences of one's own soul, and experiences of angels and demons. From an exoteric perspective, experience of an angel or a demon is esoteric - but from the esoteric limit of Orthodoxy, it is exoteric.

So when these perennialists have Non-Dualistic Spiritual Experiences, they are either having an experience of the simplicity of their own soul at best, or having a demonically-induced delusion at worse. This is definitely at a deeper level of spirituality than the regular world, but it is not at the esoteric limit of spirituality.

That's the exoteric layer by which perennialism falls to syncretism - a common experience found in false traditions either of the simplicity of their own soul, unfragmented by sense experience, or of a demonically induced experience of the same type of simplicity.

>>20236424
Wow thanks anon!
Is it necessary to read the Upanishads first before the commentaries?

>>20240989
Nvm. I should have checked through the pdfs first before posting. Seems they are interweaved.

>>20240885
Thanks for the insightful post anon
Do you believe at its core Orthodox Christian spirituality holds the highest esoteric limit in this sense? What do you think about Buddhism in this regard? What about Islam?
Furthermore, do you believe the esoteric aspect of Orthodoxy is suited for all people regardless of background or should a tradition for such purpose be chosen in accordance with one's ethnicity, ancestry, and caste?

>>20241298

>Do you believe at its core Orthodox Christian spirituality holds the highest esoteric limit in this sense?

Yes - and the direct experience of people who live at this limit has been a matter of public record for over 2000 years, up to this day. Here's a recording of Roosh V talking about his experience with one of them, Elder Ephraim of Arizona. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRl3THDYN6Q

>What do you think about Buddhism in this regard?

There's a lot of practical benefit that can be gotten from buddhist practise, since it has a focus on achieve stillness, awareness, liberation from the passions, and I think most importantly drawing attention to the buddhi (called the Nous in Orthodoxy), and the fact that you are not your thoughts - but it can't open up heaven to you.

However, buddhisms like Vajrayana buddhism overtly involve witchcraft(tantric magic, developing siddhis) and demonic possession(wrathful buddha yidam work), and so can very easily open up hell for you.

>What about Islam?

I'm not intimately familiar with Islam, so I wouldn't be able to give you much detailed information. Sunni Islam gives me the impression of being largely focused on the exoteric, which is why the majority of Sufi orders are in Sunni areas, which is an attempted counterbalance.

I know that the belief in Djinns as a "neutral" spiritual party alongside angels and demons opens up another dimension of spiritual delusion that demons can put Muslims into, through presenting themselves as Djinn.

>do you believe the esoteric aspect of Orthodoxy is suited for all people regardless of background

Absolutely. There's recorded lives of Saints from every ethnicity, ancestry, and caste. Different Saints acquire different gifts accordingly, according to God's will for them.

There are many key to this: Every initiate into Orthodox Christianity is given potential direct access to the esoteric aspect through baptism and chrismation, to the degree that they are willing to ascetically strive for purification. Even people who are not fully pure, but are committed to struggling and fully desiring to know the truth, are given small tastes of the direct experience of God, according to how they are able to handle it.

The other key is that there is no division between the exoteric expression of Orthodox Christianity, and the esoteric reality at the core. The deepest aspects of Orthodoxy are continually explicated through the yearly cycle of the divine liturgy. These truths are not hidden - but the direct experience of these truths, and the accompanying deification implicit in them, is a matter of individual struggle for purification. The most detailed explicators of the esoteric dimension of Orthodoxy (St Maximus the Confessor, St Gregory Palamas, St Gregory the New Theologian), are among the most intense ascetics, and they are simply explicating the exact same beliefs as what the pious old grandmother at Church beliefs, but with deeper technical depth.

>>20241298

I will say one extra thing here, purely because I'm anonymous:

One of the "lower-level esoteric dimensions" that Orthodoxy can open one up to in a clearer way, is focusing your attention on the presence of other people's souls, and direct perception of the surface of someone's emotional state.

This is because Orthodoxy is metaphysically trinitiarian - it affirms the unity of nature. All humans, therefore, are sympathetically linked in some way, even if in our fallen state we are too self-centered to even attempt to be present within one another, like how the trinity dwells within each other, in natural unity without a loss of distinction in person.

It is difficult to even comprehend doing this if you are stuck in an advaita mode of thinking(where there is no point in bridging the gap between me and you because the difference between us is false), or an advaita mode of thinking(where the sharp division between creator and created implies a sharp division between me and you as persons).

This is still on the level of a purely created phenomena, and not an experience of the uncreated energies of God, so this is still in the scheme of things at a purely fleshly and low spiritual level - but it is a dimension that then gives direct personal experience of the souls of the Saints, so that you are not saying prayers to yourself, but truly saying them directly and presently to another person.

And, since Christ became a man, this does mean that you can be directly present in Christ's soul, and pray to him directly there.

This still has nothing to do with directly experiencing the energies of the uncreated God, and so is fundamentally at a low and fleshly spiritual level. I believe that this is analogous to telling someone that they are able to smell, if they were raised in a society that said that smell simply didn't exist, because how on earth could humans detect something that cannot be seen or heard?

>>20240885
>I'm simply saying that, his analysis, is simply a syncretism at a deeper level.
Not really, because no matter how deep you go he isn't coming up with anything new and putting it forward as a 'syncretized' system but is just pointing out commonalities of disparate elements from various traditions which he respectfully leaves in their place. It's not syncretism unless he actually tries to combine different elements into a new product like Schuon unfortunately did (and which Guenon criticized)

>>20230664
>Why did he convert to Islam instead of Hinduism?
He may have joined something in India if the British had not refused to issue him a visa, but we'll never know....

>>20222071
new chart
r8

>>20242365
remove Guenon from that cringe list

>>20242499
lmao you got filtered by Evola?

>>20242365
actually very based

>>20242499
Evola is not the worst author from there

>>20241444
>demonic possession(wrathful buddha yidam work),
How would this oppen up hell, to my understanding the e.g Yamantaka tantra which is I guess includes "generating" yourself as the yidam, which is the most wrathful I've read, is simply about cultivating Knowledge, Truth, Insight, Peace pursuit of Gnosis and spiritual perfection so to speak, can you please elaborate further as I am may be potentially initiated into one of these lineages soon thanks.

>>20242365
Based.

>>20242365
Real

why is this book so good?

>>20242365
Crisis of the Modern Word should definitely be read before Reign of Quantity

There’s really no reason to read Sedgewick before Guenon desu, its better to read Guenon first

>>20243798
I only put Sedgewick there because he actually does a good job in showing how Evola came from the Guenon school of thought

>Crisis before Reign
totally agree, I fucked up the presentation and meant to have Crisis where Spiritual Authority is

>>20243607
is midwit

>>20243607
Upton's books are good but that guy is a fucking snoozefest on YouTube kek

>>20243866
I like the other charts styles of having sedgewicks book be off to the side, otherwise it implies its mandatory to start with it and that you’ll be at a disadvantage by not doing so

>>20244041
word
that's probably a good idea

updated

>>20244075

>>20242365
>>20243866
>>20244075
terrible chart. remove Evola and Nietzsche

>>20242365
>>20243866
>>20244075
This chart is a work of counter-initiation, anti-tradition. Imagine thinking Nietzsche and Evola are by any means in accord with Guénon and the others.

>>20244086
>>20244094
>got filtered by Nietzsche and Evola
ngmi pleb

>>20222222
holy based

>>20243866

>Ride the Tiger more advanced than Reign of Quantity

Have you actually read any of these books? RTT has always been entry level.

>>20244649
have you?!?
he literally says in the opening pages of RTT that he based his ideas of Guenon and then goes onto talk about Nietzsche for half the book

fuck outta here pseud

>>20244737

And have you read past the opening pages? The actual contents of the book is fairly basic.

Recommending that someone read Reign of Quantity before RTT is like recommending that someone read the Summa Theologica before they read a Roman Catholic Catechism, just because the Roman Catholic Catechism say that the ideas they have in there are based off of Aquinas's writings. But the Summa is extremely dense and technical, and the Catechism is designed to be entry level.

>>20244820
anon with all due respect I have read each book on the chart multiple times
please don't try to flex on me
the point of the chart is to get a full understanding of Evola's Ride the Tiger - not to understand Reign of Quantity in its fullest. There are Guenon charts for this purpose.

I'll give you my reasoning though

Guenon/core/ lays the foundation so the reader can understand Tradition
Nietzsche/core/ lays the foundations so the reader can understand Power

>Revolt
offers the reader insights into traditional cultures of the past from a /pol/ view
>Metaphysics of Power
offers the political forms of society from a /trad/ view
>Men Among the Ruins
Similar to Metaphysics of Power
>Ride the Tiger
Shows the reader how the forces of Modernity have manifested and to turn poison into power

>>20244101
>Ah yes, to make my chart truly /trad/, I will add one of the foremost modern thinkers.
>political guide
lol

>>20226347
>guenon was a muslim lol
No.

"What also surprised me a great deal was the regret that I had no biographical information about myself; this is something I have always formally opposed, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to traditional doctrine, individualities count for nothing and must disappear entirely ... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; For example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature. I would like to add in this regard that my links with Islamic esoteric organizations are not something more or less recent as some people seem to think; in fact, they are almost 40 years old...".
- Letter from René Guénon to A. Daniélou, August 27, 1947, my translation - i'm french and my English is bad so sorry if there are mistakes

Retarded Muslims who try to grab his glory must get out. Guénon was Sufi at the end of his life, for purely practical reasons: he already had links with Sufi organizations and he wanted to leave France. The closest and most convenient was the Maghreb.

99.99% of the Muslims who try to seize Guénon's genius by saying "he converted to Islam lol" are refuted by the master himself in this letter and probably never read him, because they would make apostate any Muslim having 1/10th of Guénon's beliefs. Some points of his belief in brief:

1. that all religions are currently valid to lead to God and that Islam is only the most practical path of our time for a European
2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
4. that it is desirable to achieve supra-individual states through intiation
5. that there is an esoteric path that transcends religious divisions

The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.

Small message to the islamists who play the guenonfags to convert naive people to their shitty sect.

>>20229013
The Hindu durations are symbolic. He did astrological and chronological work with people like Gaston Georgel to come to these conclusions

>>20230233
There is no greater critic of Freemasonry than him
Besides, when you read him you see that he would have clearly condemned all the current abuses of the lodges

>>20222222
>PBUH
no freaking way. reading guenon in 2022 confirmed and locked in. i kneel.

>>20222222

Does Guenon ever talk about Orthodoxy?

>>20245558
As in the Christian Orthodox church

>>20245558

He hasn't had much exposure to it, so he basically never talks about it. I don't think he saw much reason to investigate into Orthodox Christianity since he assumed that Roman Catholicism was the true lineage of Christianity, having been raised in a majority Catholic environment.

Which is a shame, because when I was investigating which Christianity was the best candidate for the true lineage, Orthodoxy was the obvious choice, since Roman Catholicism has changed so much since the great schism of 1054, whereas Orthodoxy has stayed the same.

>>20222222
downloading the pdf now

>>20245727
>since he assumed that Roman Catholicism was the true lineage of Christianity, having been raised in a majority Catholic environment
how do you even come to such conclusions? he literally said that there is more esoterism preserved in the orthodox church than in the catholic one

>>20245727
>since he assumed that Roman Catholicism was the true lineage of Christianity
Ananda Coomaraswamy also thought the same

>>20245727
>great schism of 1054
There was no "great schism of 1054". Rome and the east have remained close until the recent centuries.

>>20245851

Where? If I missed that note, I'd like to know where he said that.

>>20245901

>contradicting literally every single person considered a Saint by Orthodox and Catholic churches since 1054 about the status of the schism

Fuck off, commie ecumenist.

>>20245916
https://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2014/06/the-myth-of-schism-david-bentley-hart.html

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/10/doubting-conventional-narrative-schism-1054-charles-yost.html

Your venomous language is a testimony of your faith.

>>20245926

>More DBH turbo-heretical garbage

Fuck off into the deepest pits of hell, commie ecumenist jesuit subverter.

>>20245930
What is "heretical" (?) or wrong about that article?

Instead of kicking and screaming you should read more before judging. And repent of these juvenile behavior that are unchristian. How dare you speak of saints and behave in such manner.

>Chrysostom Frank published an article some years ago that laid out quite compactly, but with a wealth of detail, how porous (or, in some cases, nonexistent) were the partitions between the churches for centuries after the excommunications of 1054.2 Communicatio in sacris between Orthodox and Catholics, Frank notes, continued in some places till the 17th century. At the Council of Florence (1438–39), for instance, both sides spoke of the division between East and West as a wall of separation erected within the one Catholic Church. In various reaches of the Ottoman Empire, Frank observes, great numbers of Orthodox and Catholic believers—among the clergy no less than among the laity—proceeded as if there were no division. Latin missionaries were even known to regard the local Orthodox bishop as their ordinary, and Catholic priests were allowed to preach in Orthodox churches, catechize, hear confessions, and even on occasion administer the Eucharist. Orthodox Christians did not hesitate to show their reverence for the Catholic sacrament at corpus Christi processions, and on the Island of Andros the Orthodox bishop and his clergy—fully vested and bearing candles—participated in the procession itself. In the 17th century, Frank shows, there were abundant signs of cordiality between the communions: a former Athonite abbot in 1628 asking Rome to open a school on the Holy Mountain, the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch in 1644 inviting the Jesuits to open a house in Damascus, the Metropolitan of Aegina in 1690 petitioning the pope for Jesuits to undertake pastoral work in his diocese. And then, Frank sadly observes, in the 18th century both churches hardened in their positions, and soon this history of accord was forgotten.

>>20245957

Fuck off into the deepest pits of hell with the rest of your sodomite associates, you satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter,

You will never cite what any canonised Saint has actually written about the 1054 schism, like St Mark of Ephesus, St John Maximovitch, and so on, because every single one of the Saints will refute your Satanic historical revisionist agenda. Even if you were to do it, you're too ill-willed to do it honestly, and you would cherry pick their writings to misquote what they say to support yoru ideas, instead of reading them fully in context to understand the unity of their teaching.

The only people you will fool with this absurd garbage are people who are either totally ignorant about the history of the Church, or the lukewarm who do not care about learning what the Saints have taught, because they do not actually go to the divine Liturgy where the history of the Church is made clear, because they are atheists who want an outward, political union between the Churches.

>>20245901
>>20245916
wait, i thought it was catholics who said the schism was no biggie?
then again, my country is "catholic" and the schools do teach the usual narrative.

>>20246054
Maybe instead of just sperging out and denying him, you could offer some of this evidence you speak of?

>>20245912
read the second chapter of his book on christian esoterism

>>20246054
>Fuck off into the deepest pits of hell with the rest of your sodomite associates, you satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter,

and then christcucks wonder why some people prefer impersonal non-dual traditions like advaita, taoism or buddhism over christianity... orthodox christians these days are just as worse as wahhabis

>>20222222
Well... guess it's time to read Guenon.

>>20246346
>orthodox christians these days are just as worse as wahhabis
indeed, they are wahhabis but without balls

>>20246252

I'll address one of his point here, since it will be sufficient.

>At the Council of Florence (1438–39), for instance, both sides spoke of the division between East and West as a wall of separation erected within the one Catholic Church.

His example is completely and utterly refuted by the canonization and testimony of St. Mark of Ephesus, commemorated yearly on the Liturgical Calendar. Canonized in 1734.

The Orthodox Church and Catholic Church were not in communion at the time of his attending the Council of Ferrara-Florence of 1438-1439. Part of the rhetoric used by the pro-union parties were the same as when two people break up, and try to get back together by saying "We never really broke up.". The purpose of this council was to talk about a formal, outward union. St Mark of Ephesus attended this, hoping that this union would

However, during the council, it was made abundantly clear that the union would not be made on the premise of the Roman Catholics repenting of their errors, and accepting Orthodox dogma, but of the Orthodox accepting Roman Catholic dogma, including purgatory and the papacy. This was an attempt at unity for the sake of unity, not for the sake of truth.

St Mark of Ephesus was canonized precisely confessing the truth of Orthodoxy in defiance of his heretical patriarch, rejecting Papism, and union with Papists. Here is an excerpt from a letter he wrote prior to his death:

"I hereby state and testify before the many worthy men here present that I do not desire, in any manner and absolutely, and do not accept communion with him or with those who are with him, not in this life nor after my death, just as (I accept) neither the Union nor Latin dogmas, which he and his adherents have accepted, and for the enforcement of which he has occupies this presiding place, with the aim of overturning the true dogmas of the Church. ! I am absolutely convinced that the farther I stand from him and those like him, the nearer I am to God and all the saints; and to the degree that I separate myself from them am I in union with the Truth and with the Holy Fathers, the Theologians of the Church; and I am likewise convinced that those who count themselves with them stand far away from the Truth and from the blessed Teachers of the Church."

Full letter here: https://www.stjohnthebaptist.org.au/en/articles/mark.html

Uniates and Byzantine Catholics use the Orthodox liturgical calendar, and every year they commemorate St Mark of Ephesus, who is venerated for rejecting the Papist Church that they are part of - and countless other Saints who are venerated precisely for rejecting union with Papism, and converting others from Papism to Orthodoxy. That's patently absurd, and the clearest demonstration that these Jesuit don't care about the truth - they only care about you bending knee to the Pope.

Attached is an icon of St Mark of Ephesus, traditionally depicted with the defeated Pope at his feet.

>>20246221

Yes, it is. They try to push historical revisionism to say this, and completely ignore what the commemorated and canonised Orthodox Saints have always done to preserve Orthodoxy from union with Roman Catholicism.

>>20246388
Thank you for the detailed post.
I just started reading Guenon 6 months ago and because of convenience I started attending a nearby fairly traditional Catholic church (which I understand to be rare nowadays and I'm lucky). I haven't exactly committed yet and wouldn't mind reading something from an Orthodox perspective. Would you have any recommendations? Esp. for comparing the Catholic versus Orthodox doctrines.
Also I've always thought the different versions of the Orthodox church to be strange: e.g. Greek, Russian, Serbian etc. Surely, the church should be above such profane things as ethnicity? Unless this is in line with what Guenon says by each peoples requiring a slightly different expression of the metaphysical truth to help them better understand according to their disposition?

>>20245727
>Orthodoxy was the obvious choice
wrong

dear guenonians, avoid christianity like the plague

>>20246450

>Also I've always thought the different versions of the Orthodox church to be strange: e.g. Greek, Russian, Serbian etc. Surely, the church should be above such profane things as ethnicity?

There are no dogmatic differences between these ethnic Churches, and they are One Church. It's just a matter of practical convenience that the Orthodox Churches have distinct jurisdictional organizations according to ethnicity. There are a few ethnic idiosyncrasies - like the fact that the Greeks spread basil leaves in the Church at Easter, and the Russians have warm wine along with the blessed prosphora after Holy Communion, but these are just local customs that don't have any bearing on dogma. The lives of the Saints of each of the ethnic jurisdictions confirm the same reality between all of them.

For a comparison of the Orthodox and Catholic doctrines at the level of metaphysics, St Gregory Palamas's "Triads" is perfect for this. For other differences, Fr. Peter Heers has a lot of content about the differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OinVI39Ky4M

For the historical differences that have developed and branched over the past 1000 years since the schism, and how the effects of the schism naturally resulted in the Protestant Reformation, while Orthodoxy never had a reformation of any kind (due to retaining the original unity of the faith), there is this series of transcribed lectures of Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Orthodox Survival Course". http://orthodoxaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/course.pdf

I would also recommend this article comparing the spirituality of Francis of Assissi, and the recent St Seraphim of Sarov. St Seraphim of Sarov exhibits the same spirituality of the first 1000 years of the Church, but Francis of Assissi makes extreme breaks, and falls into spiritual delusion. Here's an article and a video about this. https://orthochristian.com/90893.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra17xm0yn3E

Orthocuckery is trash
Guenon and virtually every single traditionalist have stated that the Western Tradition is Catholicism

>>20246649
>>20246338

>>20246530
I read some Seraphim Rose books after learning he was primarily influenced by Guenon
However, there was something extremely off-putting about his works and did not feel any connection with Orthodoxy
>>20246658
he clearly states in Crisis that he favors a combination of exoteric Catholicism with esoteric Freemasonry

>>20246388
So orthodoxy is just a crypto protestant reaction movement against the Church. No positive stance other than hatred for the Church.

>Canonized in 1734
That fits the narrative that the schism was strengthened around that century.
>>20246592
>There are no dogmatic differences between these ethnic Churches, and they are One Church
>>20246592
>For the historical differences that have developed and branched over the past 1000 years since the schism, and how the effects of the schism naturally resulted in the Protestant Reformation, while Orthodoxy never had a reformation of any kind (due to retaining the original unity of the faith),
It has remained in union like the recent schism between Constantinople and Moscow?

>>20246393
>canonised Orthodox Saints have always done to preserve Orthodoxy from union with Roman Catholicism.
Even protestant "canonize" their own by adding them to the liturgical calendar as if to give legitimacy.

You have to be very naive to think there was a formal division prior to modernity.

Orthodox are the one in schism. And they have schism between themselves now.

>>20246686

>So orthodoxy is just a crypto protestant reaction movement against the Church. No positive stance other than hatred for the Church.

The positive stance affirmed is the stance affirmed in every single divine liturgy, which RC dogmas contradict, since every element of the divine liturgy is predicated on the real direct experience of God. This reality is denied by RC dogma that was accepted by the false hierarchs that St. Mark of Ephesus rejected communion with.

See this >>20246252 ? This is why I didn't bother to actually give a proper response to him before, and why no-one should waste their time giving responses to the committedly dishonest . This Jesuit doesn't have a single honest bone in his body. When his position is disproven, including the fact that Uniates and Byzantine Catholics venerate St. Mark of Ephesus, along with other Saints venerated for refuting RCism and converting others to RCism, the snake just throws meaningless accusations that only have a rhetorical effect on people who are simply incapable of paying any attention to anything at all.

>It has remained in union like the recent schism between Constantinople and Moscow?

The inner union in the mysteries is not affected by so-called "schisms" of a purely political and worldly character, no matter what corrupt, political hierarchs would like laypeople to believe. Schisms born from denial of the fundamentals of the faith are what deprive grace from heretics - and is why the RC Church has been deprived of grace for the past 1000 years after committing to heresies, and has continually multiplied heresies the point of giving birth to the reformation, which has inherited many of RCism's original errors.

>>20246720

Ignoring the damning point that Uniates and Byzantine Catholics venerate St. Mark of Ephesus won't make anyone reading you believe you.

You are proving that you are a committed snake, a complete liar, and a dishonest atheist pushing for the political subjugation of Orthodoxy under the Pope's lace-trimmed slipper.

>>20246752
cope more schismatic
8th circle of hell 4 U

>>20246054
>>20245916
Your hatred, bitterness etc is proof of the unorthodoxy of virtual eastern orthodox who think they are heirs of Christ by downloading and uploading an icon. I cannot believe someone who has ever taken communion with Christ would say such things. This that consumes you is false zeal, spiritual arrogance, hatred pure and simple.

When was the last time you were in Communion with Christ?

This virtual false zeal for eastern orthodoxy is pharisaic in nature. Whereas jews would always scream "anything but christianity" the ortholarper says "anything but catholicism!". While they go as far as consider communion with protestants.

>>20246748
>birth to the reformation
The orthodox are considerably close to lutherans and anglicans.

>>20223370
this sounds like something written by a cult member ngl

>>20246752
>Ignoring the damning point that Uniates and Byzantine Catholics venerate St. Mark of Ephesus won't make anyone reading you believe you.
This is completely irrelevant. How do you expect to sustain there was a great schism by citing the "veneration of St. Mark of Ephesus" canonized in the 18th century?

You lack historical awareness if you think East and West automatically split in 1054. Plus Chrysostom Frank is an eastern orthodox himself >>20245957

>>20246819
at no point does Guenon tell you to suspend your critical thinking skills, like cults do

>>20246803

Fuck off into the deepest pits of hell with the rest of your liberal sodomite associates, you lying satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter.

>>20246829
I am starting to believe you are a non-christian false flagging as orthodox.

>>20246824

>The fact that members of the Roman Catholic Church has venerated as a Saint St Mark of Ephesus, who is canonised for rejecting union with the Roman Catholic Church, is irrelevant

Fuck off with a skateboard kickflip into the deepest pits of hell with the rest of your liberal sodomite associates, you lying satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter with aids.

>>20246649
>le western tradition
retarded

>>20246843
lol non-white detected

>>20246834
>>20246803
anon, while it maybe true that this nigger has lost his composure, you yourself are not making any substantive arguments. you're being smug faggot and this justifies his frustration. make a fucking argument or take the L

>>20246841
How is popular devotion to a saint canonized in the 1700s proof of anything? The fact he was canonised for "rejecting union with the Roman Catholic Church" is just proof his canonization served specific (schismatic) purposes. Canonized or not, venerated or not, it does not proof by any means that there was this automatic and formal division.

Even the protestants have their own 'saints':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_saints_(Lutheran)

>>20246864
I already posted two articles about the myth of 'great schism'. I do not know what else I can provide.

>>20246844
go back to /pol/, hylic nigger

>>20246878
I knew it kek
read the first pages of Intro to Hindu Doctrines
Guenon unironically believes in the white race (which you do not belong to)

>>20246874

So, again, you are proving like the lying sack of shit you are, that you don't care that a Saint is being venerated, in the Roman Catholic Church, who was canonised for his rejection of the Roman Catholic Church. The fact that this is a blatant performative contradiction means nothing to you, since as a lover and supporter of hypocrisy and lies, this is no problem for you, so long as your Satanic agenda of submission to the Pope, whose primary role right now is to push for every EU/UN/NWO's political agenda, is fulfilled.

Fuck off with a backwards skateboard kickflip pop shove-it to boneless into the deepest pits of hell with the rest of your liberal sodomite marxist associates, you lying satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter with double aids.

>>20246889
You expect to use the example of the veneration of an "anti-catholic saint" by catholics as proof of a division that could have only happened in modern times. I am done with you.

Note his canonization happened in the 1700s which:
>And then, Frank sadly observes, in the 18th century both churches hardened in their positions, and soon this history of accord was forgotten.

>>20246881
you're a delusional retard

>>20246909
>slav
>white

>>20246913
hungarian-swabian
keep coping

guenon said the best chance for the europe *was* catholicism with masonic elements, but you are forgetting converted to fucking islam. yet you insult an anon for following orthodoxy?

>>20246924
>you are forgetting converted to fucking islam
see >>20245298
i'll gladly take the sufi pill before I take the orthocuck pill

>>20246906

You filthy syphilitic rat, I was bringing it up as an extra example for why the Papacy is a whore Church, that allows you to do whatever you want, including venerate Saints who were canonised precisely for rejecting the Papacy. This also including venerating condemned heretics like Nestorius, and the Papacy is in communion with committed Nestorians, the Syro-Malabar Church. This to demonstrate that the Papacy does not care about the truth, only submission to the Papacy.

This exact point was never used as a counterargument to your ridiculous historical revisionism, and claiming that I used it as such is a failed attempt at pure jesuit fast talk - the actual counterargument, that the Orthodox Church and the Papal Churches were not in any "secret union" at the time of the council of Florence, is proven by the fact that the council was called - and his testimony of rejecting communion with the Orthodox Apostates who went into Rome is completely and utterly damning to your position.

He died a Saint, out of communion both with Rome, and the Orthodox Apostates that went into communion with Rome.

It is impossible to die a Saint outside of communion with the Orthodox Church.

He must have then died within the Orthodox Church, that neither the Papists or the Orthodox Apostates were part of. His rejection of the Papists, and rejecting communion, is irrefutable evidence of the lack of secret communion between Orthodoxy and Rome, if his canonization is considered legitimate.

His canonization and veneration is considered legitimate by the Papal Church, within the liturgical cycle of Uniates and Byzantine Catholics.

Fuck off with a backwards skateboard kickflip pop shove-it to boneless into the deepest pits of vatian gay bar hell with the rest of your liberal sodomite marxist associates, you lying satanic commie jesuit ecumenist subverter with double aids and a lisp.

>>20246930
where is the appeal to muh western tradition?

>>20246931

*His rejection of the Papists, and rejecting communion with the Orthodox Apostates, is irrefutable evidence, etc

>>20246941
not too concerned about that
we will Westernize Islam and make it way more based

>>20246931
You can make your point without lying, anon

>>20246945
>hitler quote
>westernize = more based
>>>/pol/

>>20246962
>westernize = more based

>>20246965
how?
read guenon

>>20246931
>Churches were not in any "secret union" at the time of the council of Florence, is proven by the fact that the council was called

Chrysostom Frank published an article some years ago that laid out quite compactly, but with a wealth of detail, how porous (or, in some cases, nonexistent) were the partitions between the churches for centuries after the excommunications of 1054. Communicatio in sacris between Orthodox and Catholics, Frank notes, continued in some places till the 17th century. At the Council of Florence (1438–39), for instance, both sides spoke of the division between East and West as a wall of separation erected within the one Catholic Church. In various reaches of the Ottoman Empire, Frank observes, great numbers of Orthodox and Catholic believers—among the clergy no less than among the laity—proceeded as if there were no division. Latin missionaries were even known to regard the local Orthodox bishop as their ordinary, and Catholic priests were allowed to preach in Orthodox churches, catechize, hear confessions, and even on occasion administer the Eucharist. Orthodox Christians did not hesitate to show their reverence for the Catholic sacrament at corpus Christi processions, and on the Island of Andros the Orthodox bishop and his clergy—fully vested and bearing candles—participated in the procession itself. In the 17th century, Frank shows, there were abundant signs of cordiality between the communions: a former Athonite abbot in 1628 asking Rome to open a school on the Holy Mountain, the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch in 1644 inviting the Jesuits to open a house in Damascus, the Metropolitan of Aegina in 1690 petitioning the pope for Jesuits to undertake pastoral work in his diocese. And then, Frank sadly observes, in the 18th century both churches hardened in their positions, and soon this history of accord was forgotten.

>At the Council of Florence (1438–39), for instance, both sides spoke of the division between East and West as a wall of separation erected within the one Catholic Church.

>Frank observes, great numbers of Orthodox and Catholic believers—among the clergy no less than among the laity—proceeded as if there were no division.

>In the 17th century, Frank shows, there were abundant signs of cordiality between the communions: a former Athonite abbot in 1628 asking Rome to open a school on the Holy Mountain, the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch in 1644 inviting the Jesuits to open a house in Damascus, the Metropolitan of Aegina in 1690 petitioning the pope for Jesuits to undertake pastoral work in his diocese.

>>20246969
i've read every guenon book except his theosophy and calculus ones. was guenon's plan not to create a westernized Islam with Sufism?

>>20246982
no

>>20246992
how?
read guenon

>>20246995
as if you have explained yourself
viewing westernization as a positive is very clearly opposed to guenon, who identified it with modernity.
what are you trying to get at with jung and hitler anyways? totally unrelated and contrary to guenon.

>>20246982
>was guenon's plan not to create a westernized Islam with Sufism?
Is this bait? I can't conceive how anyone would get this from reading Guenon.

>>20247010
>>20247035
go back and read Crisis of the Modern World
He lays out three paths from most optimal to least optimal
>Catholic Exoterism with Freemasonic Esoterism
>Islam takes over West
>West completely collapses and it's over

He wrote that before vatican II so the first path seems unlikely - although *still possible*.
(At no point does he recommend Orthodoxy)
The third path is clearly undesirable
Thus leaving a Western Islam as the most optimal scenario.

cope, seethe, and dilate you lowly Orthocucks. Lebensraum in the east will be obtained at your expense, INSHALLAH

>>20247038
and what does Schuon say?
>my goal is to bring islam to the west

>>20247038
Quote the section where Guenon suggests Western Islam. Should be easy to find given your enthusiasm and expertise.

>>20247063
it's the conclusion chapter
it's mainly about the need to return to catholicism but also talks about how Eastern Spiritual elites need to provide a metaphysical foundation for the West to help it not collapse
he then discusses this Islamization of the West as the most optimal scenario in East & West

just what do you think Guenon, Schuon, and Lings were doing by taking the Sufipill? They were laying the foundation for a PLAN B in case the Church collapsed.

>>20247096
That's not a quote, retard.

>>20247099
he talks about it in the conclusion Intro to Study of Hindu Doctrines too
give me one sec and i'll take a pic

In a later book, he discusses how the Sufism is the better choice compared to Vedanta because it is more accessible

>>20247143

>>20247147

>>20247152

>>20247143
Okay, thanks anon.
I take back what I said. You were right.

>>20247155

>>20247160

>>20247164

>>20247170

>>20247173

>>20247158
okay, have a great day

>>20247143
>>20247147
>>20247152
>>20247155
>>20247160
>>20247164
>>20247170
>>20247173
>>20247175
thanks anon

>>20247143
i have to say i was very hostile since i thought you were just a /pol/ak pseud, but i'm proven wrong.
you were right, i apologize
have a good day

>>20247196
it's cool
i'm a /pol/lack but i'm a /trad//pol/lack

and yes, I did deliberately bait you in previous posts ;)

He was a theosophist with horrible metaphysics who was only rediscovered because his schizobabble vaguely supports the cringe ‘traditionalism’ of the losers on here.

>>20247200
based

>>20247209
his metaphysics are actually the end-game of metaphysics

>>20222222
witnessed

>>20247209
t. someone who hasn't read any Guenon

He wrote an entire book on why theosophy is a psuedo-religion and blew Blavatsky out the water.

>>20229668
Islam promote strength, and how is Christianity weaker if it destroyed paganism?

>>20247548
yeah yeah
how did jews become powerful if they are inferior
etc etc

>>20222222
On this day, today, I witnessed this.

>>20247897
fr bro

>>20247897
>>20248406

The only coherent explanation for the unspeakable commitment to evil from the jews is that the jews have literally killed God Himself, and suffered a blood curse because of it, along with a commitment to demonically-empowered occultism (hence the six-pointed star on their flag). This fits into a whole eschatological picture, where a jew from the tribe of Dan will be the Anti-Christ, but every other tribe will repent and accept Christ before the endtimes.

There only coherent explanation from tradlarp materialists for the success of the jews is that tradlarp materialism can't win against the weak, making tradlarp materialism even weaker.

>>20247209
Filtered beyond belief

I love guenon so much

>>20222071
>tl;dr: Islam should dominate the world
here's why Guenon is wrong
https://olavodecarvalho-org.translate.goog/as-garras-da-esfinge-rene-guenon-e-a-islamizacao-do-ocidente/?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-BR&_x_tr_pto=wapp

>>20249270
it seems like Olavo has some kino video content only available in Portuguese
i've seen a bunch of translated vids and he's funny too

>>20249270
I agree with him though, I was shilling Western Islam above as b8 but only because that's the unironic Guenonian/Schuonian position

fuckin dumbass zoomers

>>20249304
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4USn_dH8NE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9_RE3OZl0I
yep, deeply "redpilled"
I bet /lit/ would love his book on Aristotle

>>20249505
yup it was the vids from that channel I watched
his written debate against Dugin is one of the best /trad/ pieces out there

anyways i'm reading the article you posted. Found this to be based af

>From the point of view of the common seeker who, coming from revolutionary, modernist and atheistic circles, is alerted to the importance of “spiritual” themes and, after a temporary illusion with the “New Age”, becomes disillusioned with its superficiality and leaves in search for more nutritious food, the transition to the traditionalism of Guénon and Schuon is a formidable intellectual upgrade, a deculturating impact, almost an interior transfiguration that will suddenly isolate you from the surrounding mental environment, marked at the same time by the discredit of religions and by the vulgarity without end of ubiquitous occultism, and will leave you alone, face to face with your conscience.Thus, on an individual scale, the famous prophecy issued by an anonymous biographer of René Guénon shortly after the master's death is fulfilled:

>“The time will come when each one, alone, deprived of all material contact that can help him in his inner resistance, will have to find in himself, and only in himself, the means of firmly adhering, through the center of his existence, to the Lord of all Truth."

>>20249516

Where is his written debate against Dugin?

>>20249644
http://debateolavodugin.blogspot.com/

it's fucking kino

>>20249270
good essay
that ending is so true

>>20249270
>olavo
imagine taking that lunatic seriously